how to power off a pocket pc completely

[ronaldo]

hi,

i've realised that even though when a pocket pc is switched off it still uses power. this can be quite a nuisance especially when you are travelling and haven't got access to a power supply all the time to recharge the batteries.

now is there a way - maybe a piece of software - that makes it possible to switch off the power completely?

btw., i've got an ipaq 3850.

:idea:
thanks for any advice
ronaldo

[GoldKey]

Take the battery out, but then you loose all of your data. The power that is used keeps you memory alive.

[ronaldo]

thanks for this suggestion,

but isn't there really any viable option? is there no other way to keep the data stored whilst not losing any (noticeable) power? i mean, eg. a desktop pc doesn't lose any data either by being unplugged.

i wouldn't mind if the power needed to keep the data on a pocket pc alive didn't matter, eg. was less than 1% in a day. but my ipaq takes eg. between 7% and 13% just for that. i wonder how other people cope with that. using a separate emergency/battery pack which doesn't come that cheap at all? sometimes i feel it's like with a baby that you have to watch all the time so that it doesn't cause trouble.

in all honesty, it would be great to really find a (maybe software?) solution to this real-world problem.

[ChristopherTD]

AFAIK there is no solution to this other than to tweak the software configuration so that battery drain is minimal. Some Today plugins consume more power than they should "monitoring" things. It may be possible to extend the battery life by reducing the backlight, and other well documented steps.

As the power is required to keep the information in Main Memory alive, all the data is lost if the battery runs out. If you are on the road when this happens then you are completely screwed. A backup to SD card would help in this case, providing you could get to a power source to recharge the batteries.

In practice there should be more than enough power to run your iPaq for a normal day without worry. Just make sure you charge it overnight. If you travel a lot, then a spare battery makes good sense, or there are any number of third party battery extenders, even solar power chargers!

[bitbank]

Part of the problem of the PPC is that it wakes up at midnight to adjust calendar entries. When it wakes up, it takes a few minutes to shut down depending on your settings. Here are some suggestions to make the battery last longer:

1) Remove any SD/CF cards - these drain power while the PPC is on.
2) Turn off the option in "settings->connection" for "Receive all beams".
3) Turn off the backlight at night so that the "midnight power on" uses less power.
4) Set the timeouts for when the machine should turn itself off to shorter values.

It also seems to be a brand-specific problem. My Dell Axim X5 can sit for a couple of weeks without any problem, but my Toshiba e805 drains the battery in a few days.

L.B.

[The Yaz]

Goldkey pointed out the root of your problem. Your PocketPC has to use power to retain the programs/files you have in the ram. If there was no power, you would lose everything. This includes any linkages that were setup for programs that are installed on your sd/mmc card.

The simplest solution to your problem is not a matter of software. What you need is a simple battery extender. There are many available, and I've seen them as cheap as $7.99 plus shipping. The link below is the company I bought mine from.

http://www.semsons.com/pdapowsol.html

You won't believe how you went without one.

Steve 8)

[Kowalski]

there is no way to do what you want but i think there is a way that particularly help you out.
there are chargers which takes the power from batteries, so you can charge your device whenever you dont have mains

[ronaldo]

thanks for all your advice which i appreciate.

somehow it's good to know that i am not alone with this problem (even if this doesn't solve the problem). at least the option with the battery extender seems to be a compromise even if this means to have to watch another baby...

as it seems that the root of all evil not only lies within compaq but also with the pocket pc concept - does anyone know further details about the why?

is it because of the special type of polymere batteries that have to be used for pocket pcs? or is it because of billy gates and his power hungry os? and finally, what would be necessary (at least in theory) to change this power sucking inactivity into our good old self-sufficient and power keeping idleness that we are so used by our cuddly pcs/ macs/linux/ or whatsoever?

[Talldog]

what would be necessary (at least in theory) to change this power sucking inactivity into our good old self-sufficient and power keeping idleness that we are so used by our cuddly pcs/ macs/linux/ or whatsoever?
Your cuddly pc keeps its data on a hard drive, not in memory. All PDAs have to use power to refresh the memory.

[Stephen Beesley]

Yep it mainly comes down to the flash memory needing power to retain the data stored in it. This problem could be solved by using flash ram that does not need power to retain data. This was the situation with the Newton, which as a result could be left sitting uncharged for years and then when you power it back up all of your data/programmes would still be there just like the day you left it. I believe the main reason that this approach is not taken in PPCs is the higher cost of that type of RAM memory.

Of course it is also only because the PPC never really shuts down that we are able to have the instant on feature that makes them so useful.

[ronaldo]

as probably most of us know, there are various types of memory that are being used in pcs etc.

eg. hard drives that can keep data forever (in theory) even without the need of any power supply, and the highly volatile ram that keeps data as long as you eg. don't switch off the computer.

so my question is, why on earth shouldn't it be possible to apply the same "philosophy" to pocket pcs?

[WyattEarp]

Yep it mainly comes down to the flash memory needing power to retain the data stored in it. This problem could be solved by using flash ram that does not need power to retain data. This was the situation with the Newton, which as a result could be left sitting uncharged for years and then when you power it back up all of your data/programmes would still be there just like the day you left it. I believe the main reason that this approach is not taken in PPCs is the higher cost of that type of RAM memory.

Of course it is also only because the PPC never really shuts down that we are able to have the instant on feature that makes them so useful.

If any manuafacturer claims that as a reason then it's a copout. The Newtons were no more expensive then as Pocket PCs are now. Life would be so much sweeter with FlashRAM. It's just a matter of when or if someone will get wise to this and produce one with all FlashRAM (like 256MB worth of user memory) and make use all :D :D :D . Any device with a clock in it never shutsdown, instant on or not. Is just a shame that simple issues never get resolved.

[surur]

Funny you should say that. How much are you willing to pay for a flash only device, because the MPx ( about $8-900 ) will have all the storage memory being non-volatile, so if you forget to charge it, you wont lose a thing, just like a soft-reset.

Surur

[WyattEarp]

Funny you should say that. How much are you willing to pay for a flash only device, because the MPx ( about $8-900 ) will have all the storage memory being non-volatile, so if you forget to charge it, you wont lose a thing, just like a soft-reset.

Surur

Certainly not $800.00 for something that small and limited. I don't put the MPx in the same category as regular PPCs. But my limit is about $650.00 if a PPC mets my personal standards. Phones, nothing over $300.00 for me anything more is just rediculous IMHO.

[Stephen Beesley]

Yes as groovy looking as the MPx might be I don't think I would fork out that much for its features.

If some manufacture did come up with a flash RAM based PPC then I would certainly be interested. As it is the Toshiba e75x and e80x series included a extra 32MB of non-volatile NAND Memory but this is still only a half way house really.

[Janak Parekh]

( about $8-900 )
As of yet, this is still a rumor, and a very unconfirmed one at that (given by an international site outside of many potential subsidized markets).

--janak

[The PocketTV Team]

Flash is much slower than RAM, so it would be only useful for storing Applications and Data files, but you always need RAM to execute the applications.

Smartphones are using Flash to store all the installed apps and data files, and RAM only for running programs and temporary files.

So you can turn off the power on a Smartphone, or even remove the battery, and you don't loose anything valuable (at least in theory :) ). But it takes several seconds (or minutes!) for a Smartphone to reboot when you power it up.

I wonder why Pocket PC's were not designed like that at the beginning. It would have been much better, I think. But now we are stuck with the current design scheme, for compatibility reasons. Pocket PC are not practical to take when traveling in places where you could be several days without power (e.g. in the back country, or trecking).

And yes, some Pocket PC have an internal flash memory on which you can store some data files and install some applications. But it is often un-usable due to the (in)famous IPSM bug. So I would advise against storing anything valuable in the Internal Flash Filesystem on a Pocket PC.

[Stephen Beesley]

Flash is much slower than RAM, so it would be only useful for storing Applications and Data files, but you always need RAM to execute the applications.

Smartphones are using Flash to store all the installed apps and data files, and RAM only for running programs and temporary files.

So you can turn off the power on a Smartphone, or even remove the battery, and you don't loose anything valuable (at least in theory :) ). But it takes several seconds (or minutes!) for a Smartphone to reboot when you power it up.

As I mentioned on the other thread about PPC and memory types, the last of the Newtons (the Message Pad 2100) had three different types of memory onboard: 8 MB of Mask ROM, 4 MB of DRAM, 4 MB of Flash RAM. The DRAM was system memory while the Flash RAM was user storage and would survive a loss of power. So this was effectively the same situation as the Smartphones now.

[Sven Johannsen]

Without launching into a discussion on how well they work, you could not have alarms if you fully power off your PPC. You could not receive calls if you fully power off your Smartphone. Off is Off.

Your devices come up relatively instantaneously because the OS is in RAM and running. Although not terribly long, I am sure folks would gripe about the startup time if it took as long as it does to soft reset, everytime you wanted to use your PPC. That would be the tradeoff, you would have to 'boot' your device to use it.

[The PocketTV Team]

Flash is much slower than RAM, so it would be only useful for storing Applications and Data files, but you always need RAM to execute the applications.

Smartphones are using Flash to store all the installed apps and data files, and RAM only for running programs and temporary files.

So you can turn off the power on a Smartphone, or even remove the battery, and you don't loose anything valuable (at least in theory :) ). But it takes several seconds (or minutes!) for a Smartphone to reboot when you power it up.

As I mentioned on the other thread about PPC and memory types, the last of the Newtons (the Message Pad 2100) had three different types of memory onboard: 8 MB of Mask ROM, 4 MB of DRAM, 4 MB of Flash RAM. The DRAM was system memory while the Flash RAM was user storage and would survive a loss of power. So this was effectively the same situation as the Smartphones now.
Apparently the new WM2003-SE (Second Edition is based on WinCE 4.21) has better support for Internal Flash Filesystems and like Smartphone, it can backup its Registry automatically in Flash.

We heard that the new Motorola MPx Pocket PC Phone (WM2003-SE) will have the same memory organization as the Smartphone i.e. it will be possible to power it OFF completely without loosing everything.

[ronaldo]

it seems as if future and fundamentally better - in terms of memory management - pocket pcs (or variations of them) really seem to be a mixture of 2 types of memory - a concept which is basically the same as we already have with pcs/macs etc.:

fast, volatile ram-like types of memory for executing commands and relatively slow, flash-like types of memory for storing data and programmes.

the only 2 major disadvantages with this concept seem to be that the start-up process might take too long (maybe minutes like with pcs/macs).

another argument seems to be the very limited capacity of flash-like memory.

but what about ipods?

if i remember right, they can store upto 40gb of data whilst being able to execute commands (i.e. play music) almost instantaneously.

is apple ahead in technology again? :?: :?:

[Stephen Beesley]

it seems as if future and fundamentally better - in terms of memory management - pocket pcs (or variations of them) really seem to be a mixture of 2 types of memory - a concept which is basically the same as we already have with pcs/macs etc.:

fast, volatile ram-like types of memory for executing commands and relatively slow, flash-like types of memory for storing data and programmes.

the only 2 major disadvantages with this concept seem to be that the start-up process might take too long (maybe minutes like with pcs/macs).

another argument seems to be the very limited capacity of flash-like memory.

but what about ipods?

if i remember right, they can store upto 40gb of data whilst being able to execute commands (i.e. play music) almost instantaneously.

is apple ahead in technology again? :?: :?:

There is no reason that this would lead to the PC/MAC type startup times. As long as you are not completely shutting off power when you turn the device off you will still have the instant on feature even if you have the user data stored in Flash memory.

[ronaldo]

... so what might be the reason then why the industry hasn't yet introduced a really powerful pocket pc that has all these in my view amazing features?:

eg. 40gb non-volatile storage capacity that keeps all our data forever even if the battery is empty

almost instantaneous access to all the data via volatile memory technology

it can't cost the earth, can it?

and the market is definitely there - when you think of being able to use such a pocket pc to store and play eg. all your music files as apple has demonstrated with its ipod...

:| or what do you think?

[Wiggster]

... so what might be the reason then why the industry hasn't yet introduced a really powerful pocket pc that has all these in my view amazing features?:

The limiting features on all Pocket PCs to date:
- Power
- Price
- Size

40 GB would be in a form of a hard-drive of some sort, and that takes a lot of power, and it's expensive. Battery technology needs a new jump before we can support VGA screens and hard drives and other fun juice-sucking pieces of hardware together.

Pocket PCs also need to be cheaper than laptops in almost everyone's eyes. For a normal PDA, it should cost less than a normal laptop. A rugged PDA should cost less than a rugged laptop. The things that would go into a PDA that's more powerful than the current crop would cost much more, not only because of the higher cost of more capable devices, but also because they'd be new technologies with massive amounts of R&D and marketing to pay off.

If you've ever peeked inside a Pocket PC (especially one like the iPAQ 4100 series), there is zero room to add anything else. We need smaller technology or bigger PDAs. People won't like the latter, and the former takes time to develop.

That's the summary of it, anyway.

[ronaldo]

i'm not sure whether i can buy into the last summary.

>>...40 GB would be in a form of a hard-drive of some sort, and that takes a lot of power, and it's expensive. Battery technology needs a new jump before we can support VGA screens and hard drives and other fun juice-sucking pieces of hardware together...

official technical data of apple's ipod with 40 gb memory:

Battery life
Up to 8 hours

>>the things that would go into a PDA that's more powerful than the current crop would cost much more,

ipod with 40 gb memory $499.00
ipod with 15 gb memory$299.00

>>We need smaller technology or bigger PDAs.

Size and weight (40GB model)
Height: 4.1 in
Width: 2.4 in
Depth: 0.73 in
Weight: 6.2 oz (176 g)



:idea: ronaldo

[Stephen Beesley]

i'm not sure whether i can buy into the last summary.

>>...40 GB would be in a form of a hard-drive of some sort, and that takes a lot of power, and it's expensive. Battery technology needs a new jump before we can support VGA screens and hard drives and other fun juice-sucking pieces of hardware together...

official technical data of apple's ipod with 40 gb memory:

Battery life
Up to 8 hours

>>the things that would go into a PDA that's more powerful than the current crop would cost much more,

ipod with 40 gb memory $499.00
ipod with 15 gb memory$299.00

>>We need smaller technology or bigger PDAs.

Size and weight (40GB model)
Height: 4.1 in
Width: 2.4 in
Depth: 0.73 in
Weight: 6.2 oz (176 g)



:idea: ronaldo

Yes, but pretty much all the iPod does is play music. No big colour screen to suck up power, no built in wifi and/or BT to take up room and suck up more power. No need for a fast (power consuming) chip to run the whole thing and maybe a seperate chip for video. etc etc etc....

[ronaldo]

>> Yes, but pretty much all the iPod does is play music. No big colour screen to suck up power, no built in wifi and/or BT to take up room and suck up more power. No need for a fast (power consuming) chip to run the whole thing and maybe a seperate chip for video. etc etc etc....

who says that ipod's chip is only powerful enough to play music?
i have done a bit of a research and found out that the heart of ipod is a chip called pp5002 and which is manufactured by portalplayer. the chip is based on an arm processor core - it's a 32-bit arm7tdmi processor, to be exact. obviously it seems to be a quite powerful one as a thorough report about ipod's very heart suggests:

"...They [portalplayer] extend the ARM’s power with a unique architecture that combines multiple processors on a single chip, offering twice the performance... The performance advantage enables support for more complex encoders and watermarking algorithms, audio post processing effects such as stereo expansions, and 56K soft modem and network connectivity enhancements..."

of course, the circuit of the processor would probably have to be modified and even to be complemented with an additional chip to be able to execute different commands such as playing videos.

however, my initial question was quite different, why affordable pocket pcs can't be introduced to the market with a much better memory management.

in my view powerful technology already long exists to introduce such pocket pcs to the market for a price that is well below eg. laptop's costs:

- pocket pcs that can keep a plethora of data forever even when the battery has gone, eg. with 40 gb big hard-drive-like-ones such as apple ipod's 40 gb storage

- with additional fast, volatile ram-like memory for the actual data processing part. in apple's ipod i found out that this is done via dram memory-technology

- cost: interestingly another report about apple's ipod suggests that the manufacturing cost of the ipod is driven by the cost for the storage memory which would make sense when you compare the price of an ipod with 5gb and which sells around for $200 to an ipod with 40gb for $400.

and i simply don't believe that the difference in costs between a monochrome screen (including associated technology) as found in apple's ipod and a standard colour display (including associated technology) as found in today's pocket pcs would suddenly make such a huge price difference: all the components already exist and have already been marketed to a mass market (see the latest crop of mobile phones with colour display).

but maybe someone else has got some more useful information to finally come to a clearer summary

ronaldo :|

[PetiteFlower]

Hard drives are not used in pocket PCs because they are fragile and consume a lot of power. Regardless of whether the Ipod's chip is powerful enough to do lots of things, all the ipod does is play music. That's not really demanding of the system. But add the power sucking hard drive to the 3.5-4" color screen with bright backlight, and the high user demand placed on the average PPC when running multiple programs, playing games, or even just taking notes, and you'll end up with a battery life of about 15 minutes. Plus hard drives are bulky.

I don't know about you but I am glad that I don't have to worry about corrupting my ppc's hard drive every time I drop it on the carpet, if I'm going to carry a device around all the time it has to be sturdy.

If you're not going to use your PPC for an extended length of time, then back up your data and take the batteries out. When you're ready to use it again, just restore the backup and resync for anything that's changed, and you're good to go. If you're talking about going on a business trip for a weekend, how hard is it to pack the power cord and charge it at night. Also as it was mentioned some models are more efficient then others, I can easily go a weekend without charging my Axim even with the year-old battery, Ipaqs especially the older ones are said to be some of the worst offenders.

As for using all non-volatile memory....when they invent some that's as fast as the volatile sort, yet still solid state and not cost prohibitive, I'm sure they will start putting it into ppcs. Meantime for most people it's not SUCH a hardship to recharge every night, it's better for the battery to keep it "topped up" anyway.

[ronaldo]

>>Hard drives are not used in pocket PCs because they are fragile and consume a lot of power.

i'd like to call the main message into question - let's take the ipod again, hopefully for one last time, just as a very good example (btw, i don't own one):

ipod's hard-drive-like internal storage is manufactured by toshiba. and as far as i know there isn't eg. any rotating element in it (as it used to be with classical hard drives) and which would make them fragile indeed as its predecessor.

in fact, toshiba's "hard-drive" has proved to be very sturdy. in an ipod forum i found a poll which asked their readers how far they have dropped their device (which happens to the best of users) but it survived. more than 40% indicated a height between 2 ft and 5 ft, and more than 12% had dropped it even over 5ft (!)

as for the power consumption - i haven't seen a comparison which shows the difference between the various types of memory. maybe, these sort of "hard drives" really take up much more power than eg. volatile memory types. but does it really matter?

as already explained elsewhere most of the time ipod's "hard drive" is dormant anyway as the processed information comes from its buit-in sdram memory. why should it be so difficult to incorporate such an improved memory management into a pocket pc? when you do some research you will find out for yourself that it can't be the allegedly much bigger size needed.

to come to a conclusion from my side:

i understand that for some users of pocket pc's it really doesn't matter that they have to regularely put their baby into its cradle to nurture it frequently. in a certain way i can even see an advantage from the educational point of view as it strengthens your self-discipline and iron will such as brushing your teeth every morning to keep them healthy.

however, i believe that there are also a lot of other pocket pc users who prefer to have a fully fledged and grown up companion:

a pocket pc with a flawless memory management that you can also leave alone without having to worry about it all the time!

especially when you are busy and eg. do travel regularely it is simply not practical to follow your advice all the time even though it makes very much sense. as probably all of you know eg. power standards are still different in various countries/continents: us - uk - continental europe - south america. so, you also have to have a power converter with you in order to be able to use your charger.

of course, almost everything can be done and carried with us including a battery expander as suggested earlier. but like with the aforementioned risk of dropping it also happens here to the best of us pocket pc users: we simply forget to take all we need with us or to recharge our baby for a while - maybe because we are in a clinch with our partner or have to sort out other, more important problems in our life that occupy our brain. or whatever. nobody is perfect! but **** happens, especially when we need it the least. and it can be really frustrating - as i can tell from experience - when you suddenly realise how dependent we all have become just because of user-unfriendly products!

on the other hand apple's ipod (and also apple's newton) is excellent proof that a flawless memory management is viable - eg. cost and technology wise - and does already exist.

i have written more in detail about this in the other thread "a pocket pc that keeps data forever - your opinion".

i believe that the concept of current pocket pcs is stuck up a blind alley. and recent sales figures show a dramatic slump.

as also elaborated in the above thread, the manufacturers of pocket pc would be better off to rethink their approach of pocket pc's - including improved memory management - to make this market survive also in future.

that's my humble opinion anyway

ronaldo

:idea:

[Stephen Beesley]

>>Hard drives are not used in pocket PCs because they are fragile and consume a lot of power.

i'd like to call the main message into question - let's take the ipod again, hopefully for one last time, just as a very good example (btw, i don't own one):

ipod's hard-drive-like internal storage is manufactured by toshiba. and as far as i know there isn't eg. any rotating element in it (as it used to be with classical hard drives) and which would make them fragile indeed as its predecessor.

in fact, toshiba's "hard-drive" has proved to be very sturdy. in an ipod forum i found a poll which asked their readers how far they have dropped their device (which happens to the best of users) but it survived. more than 40% indicated a height between 2 ft and 5 ft, and more than 12% had dropped it even over 5ft (!)

In fact it would seem that the "Hard Drive" used in the iPod Mini is actually a 4GB CF Memory card manufactured by Hitachi. You can check out THIS (http://www.ipodlounge.com/articles_more.php?id=3059_0_8_0_C) link for an article detailing an iPod autopsy! Hence no moving parts. As for the larger iPods with 15, 20 and 40GB hard drives use a Toshiba 1.8 inch hard drive, which, despite its small size, is a conventional hard drive - with moving parts.

Interestingly, both Toshiba and Hitachi have recently announced 2 GB hard drives in the sub-1.0 inch range. A picuture of the toshiba one (showing the rotating magnetic disk) can be seen HERE (http://www.brighthand.com/article/Toshiba_Mini_Hard_Drive_Named_World-s_Smallest). As for such a drive ever ending up in a PDA, PC World quotes a Toshiba source as saying


"We haven't finalized pricing, but the intent is by the end of the year for production to be between 200,000 to 300,000 [units] per month, so it's obviously not going to be $500," he says. "We are aiming to get it into mass-market consumer electronics such as high-end phones, GPS receivers, and MP3 players."

Time will tell I guess....

as also elaborated in the above thread, the manufacturers of pocket pc would be better off to rethink their approach of pocket pc's - including improved memory management - to make this market survive also in future

As for this well I do not think that this really is a question of memory management as such (although there has been more than enough bandwidth devoted to discussion of shortcomings in the way in which the PPC OS itself manages memory usage). It is more a question of finding a compromise between the amount and type of memory used and other factors such as power usage and cost etc.

[ronaldo]

>>As for the larger iPods with 15, 20 and 40GB hard drives use a Toshiba 1.8 inch hard drive, which, despite its small size, is a conventional hard drive - with moving parts.

thanks for providing more information about ipod's inner life. and i am very happy to learn. however i am a bit puzzled how toshiba's 1.8 inch hard drive might fit into apple's 40 gb ipod which is just 0.73 inch in depth.

anyway, i think we both agree in principle - and which is much more important - that the concept of future pocket pc's needs to be rethought. and an improved memory management is certainly not the only but one important part of it as also hinted in the other thread.

ronaldo :!:

[Stephen Beesley]

thanks for providing more information about ipod's inner life. and i am very happy to learn. however i am a bit puzzled how toshiba's 1.8 inch hard drive might fit into apple's 40 gb ipod which is just 0.73 inch in depth.

The 1.8 inch measurement is the diameter of the rotating magnetic disk at the heart of the hard drive. I think the actual depth of the driver is about the same as a PC Card.

[ronaldo]

thanks for clearing up the mystery which in fact means that size of a multi storage memory shouldn't really matter.

in terms of one of the previous statements that these hard drives are very fragile and wouldn't be suitable for being used in pocket pc's.

does anyone have more hard facts on whether this is true in the real world?

as mentioned earlier a poll in an ipod forum rather indicates that they are well suited (even though it doesn't specify on which types of ipods the people based their hands-on experience)

ronaldo :roll:

[MLewis]

I am not a terrific techno freak who knows all about the whistles and bells but who uses his Pocket PC on a day to day basis and more from a pragmatic point of view.

And i must admit that the power problem as discussed here has also haunted me. And I was really hoping to get a more flexible and self-sufficient solution too which allows for storing data forever. But it seems as if we have to wait for the next generation to come out.

I am not sure whether the next generation should really have a storage capacity of say 40 Gigabyte if this makes things more complicated than necessary. 1 or 2 GB would fully do. I imagine, that the mainstream of Pocket PC users will mainly use less data hungry applications such as 'Contacts' anyway.

[ronaldo]

i agree that solving the memory-storage problem in future generations might be more crucial than having a high capacity internal hard drive of eg. 40 gb.

however, as also outlined in the other thread, i also believe that future pocket pcs will gear towards a mixture of computer, mobile phone and mp3 player which need a lot of data storage capacity.

but i could imagine that maybe 4 or 5 gb might be sufficient, especially as it was previously said that 4gb cf card with non rotating elements (and hence with much more robustness?) are already being used in other devices such as apple's ipod.

ronaldo :roll:

[surur]

but i could imagine that maybe 4 or 5 gb might be sufficient, especially as it was previously said that 4gb cf card with non rotating elements (and hence with much more robustness?) are already being used in other devices such as apple's ipod.

ronaldo :roll:

I dont know where this comes from, but the 4GB that comes in the mini-ipod is still a microdrive made by hitachi, with rotating media.

See here (http://gallery.ipodlounge.com/ipod/thumbnails.php?album=6)and here (http://gallery.ipodlounge.com/ipod/displayimage.php?album=6&pos=19).

http://gallery.ipodlounge.com/ipod/albums/ipodmini_autopsy/normal_ipodmini_autopsy19.jpg

Interestingly, smaller drives are more robust and shock-resistant than larger ones, due to the lesser inertia of their smaller and lighter components. There has already been pocketpc's (http://www.pocketpccity.com/articles/2001/7/2001-7-16-Toshiba-Releases-Genio.html) in japan with built-in microdrives,and I hope these will be implemented more generally soon, with adequate built-in controls on the face to control media playback. I can imagine such a pocketpc replacing a phone, ppc and ipod, for only $6-700. As long as they get the ergonomics right it will be a steal :)

Heres the Genio e550 MD, with a 1GB microdrive

http://www.pocketpccity.com/images/articles/0716-genio.jpg

Surur

[Stephen Beesley]

I dont know where this comes from, but the 4GB that comes in the mini-ipod is still a microdrive made by hitachi, with rotating media.

That was my error :oops:

Just rechecked the source I used HERE (http://www.ipodlounge.com/articles_more.php?id=3059_0_8_0_C) and it does indeed mention a 4GB Hitachi microdrive in the ipod mini.

Now I just wonder how Apple can advertise it as having no moving parts...?

[surur]

Now I just wonder how Apple can advertise it as having no moving parts...?

Talk about misrepresentation and reality distortion fields.

Surur

[ronaldo]

ipod min's hard drive is actually a standard compact flash micro drive, it has turned out - a drive that is also being widely used in digital cameras and by many people...

whether rotating elements or not - what really counts is that micro drives are robust enough to be part of future pocket pc's.

and i believe that not only surur agrees with me that they perfectly are!

even though previous comments have condemmed their usage of being too fragile, this might have been true in the past but not now any more.

the only disadvantage i can see is if you want to climb the mount everest whilst using your pocket pc (probably incl. gps system) with you: as far as i know eg. hitachi's micro drive needs a certain amount of air to breathe properly which might become a problem from a certain altitude.

ronaldo :wink:

[MLewis]

Just thought to give a final thought to this interesting forum as some of the ideas I found quite amazing. In particular the various visions about future PocketPCs have sparked my interest such as this thread.

Even though I am not a pundit when it comes to PocketPCs but I could imagine that future trends will more likely gear towards jack-of-all-trade-solutions: PocketPCs that allow much more than just for database storage such as mainly Contacts or appointments via Calender and which I believe have been the major applications for the main stream so far.

I could imagine that in the near future ordinary PocketPCs will be replaced by more sophisticated and affordable devices - PocketPCs that can first of all be used as mobile phones or/and music players as it was envisaged earlier. Interestingly, in the meantime I found an article in a specialist magazine about PocketPCs and that basically tells the same story.

However, I also believe that in order to achieve all this it will be necessary to sort out in my view the very basic problems that have been linked to PocketPCs so far:

1. Power problem

When I bought my PocketPC no one ever told me that all the data on a Pocket PC would be lost once the battery was empty. And I suppose the majority of buyers was also left in the dark initially which is not very pleasant and trustworthy.

On the other hand I find the approach of Apple's iPod very interestering as mentioned earlier. But maybe, there might also be very different solutions to that. I don't really care as long as the job gets done.

2. Data input

I personally don't get on very well with various approaches such as handwriting recognition nor with soft keyboard data entry either. It's simply too unreliable or/and complicated/too slow. And I could imagine that also many more people would like to have a more sophisticated, mobile solution also in this area. I feel that the latest trend in mobile phones towards micro keyboard has proved this.

3. People's feedback

Finally I believe that first of all manufacturers should listen much more to their users - like politicans and the government should also listen to their grassroot, including people, needs and desire. Otherwise they are not trustworthy anymore in the long term and might be dumped.


In this respect I believe that this forum is an invaluable source not just to other users but also for manufacturers and all teh people working in this industry.

[ronaldo]

let's put the theory into practice as to the next generation pocket pc:

at the moment you get an mp3 player with a 20 gb storage hard drive such as the dell dj 20 jukebox for $300.

the battery life is said to last up to 20 hours!

now add to this the feature of encoding/decoding music directly, i.e. you just connect such a device directly with eg. a cd player and get pedigree mp3 files out of it. or burn your own mp3 albums onto cd's. not bad.

now add to this a low-cost pocket pc such as the mitac mio 338 which comes to around the same price of $300 and which has all the standard features.

makes altogether $600 for a pocket pc that can store 20gb of non-volatile (!) data and that can play music!

i could imagine that a realistic price of such a device would be much lower, say $450.

of course, there might be critics who argue that the processor should be faster and blablabla.

but i seriously wonder whether not just me but also the great majority would prefer such a device to, say apple's ipod or a classical pocket pc.

ronaldo

:roll:

[Leo1]

Could agree with that. Just add the features of a camera to it and -here you go - it's the perfect christmas present!

[ronaldo]

gradually we're getting there - have a look at the pocket pc siemens sx 56 with its additonal ability to play mp3 files and to make phone calls and add to this features as found in the hitachi g1000 eg. with its integrated keyboard.

finally, it's just the damn internal memory that needs to be blown up to a couple of non-volatile gigabites.

and here we go, santa claus you're welcome!

ronaldo

:lol:

[sracer]

The inherent power issues with Pocket PCs is compounded by the fact that we use these devices for purposes that it isn't best suited for.

I constantly debate over what role my iPAQ 2215 plays in my mobile arsenal. I've gone from it doing everything to "de-scoping" the functions it performs.

We all play mp3/ogg/wma music on ours. However that is very inefficient use of the device. If we listen to an hour of music, that is 1 hour less battery life we have for access to our data. Even with the screen turned off, a PPC is a very inefficient portable music player.

I purchased a cheapo solid-state MP3 player (VirginPulse) for music playback. It's small, and can play over 10 hours of music on one AA battery. That allows me to have portable music in situations where I would feel uncomfortable using my PPC... BBQing at the grill, yardwork, washing the car, etc.

I've found that for calendar, contacts, and quick note jotting, that a cheap Casio Pocket Viewer does the trick. It has FlashRAM that will retain contents even when the battery dies. I had one a bit over 3 years ago and a single pair of AAA batteries lasted over 8 months with heavy every-day usage. I could download images, webpages, and news items to it for reading on-the-go. I recently bought another one (my wife has my original) on eBay for $10 and it is working out great. It always syncs and never needs charging.

I guess I'm beginning to relegate my PPC to being a portable notebook PC. I have WiFi, modem, keyboard, battery extender, memory cards, and all of the software that I'd need... with the addition of a VGA card, it will do virtually everything that I need my notebook for.

But as a mobile personal digital assistant that I use for everything, the babysitting that my PPC requires is beginning to wear on me.

I've taken my PPC on weeklong cross-country trips. It has kept me entertained and productive on the 6 hour flights and on the go, but for the simple day-to-day activities, it's beginning to be a bit too cumbersome.

Rather than integrate WiFi, BT, USB hosting, VGA, etc... I'd like to see a stripped down PPC with FlashRAM, color screen designed to work with/without backlighting and have minimal (if any) upgrade options... if it didn't need recharging and cost $100, I'd buy it. Sure, such a device wouldn't be able to play mp3 or video or games... but not everyone wants all that in a single device.

[Leo1]

A trimmed down = low cost version of a next generation PPC?

Seems a bit contradictory in today's hi-tec world.

But interesting approach as I haven't thought of the power issue! Also, the total cost of two different devices might be significantly lower than one super-duper PPC.

Probably, a survey would give a clearer picture about what percentage of people prefer to go for the one or the other direction.

Personally I've been toying more with the idea of an all-in-one PPC as I prefer to carry just one device instead of three different ones with me.

[ronaldo]

as things are now i agree that there probably are 2 mainstream trends with future ppc's that might be contrary -

on one hand there are people who treat ppc's more like toys and who would like to do anything with them: make phone calls, play music, watch videos, do image editing, use ppc's as gps navigation systems and as a remote controls etc.

on the other extreme there are the purists who don't want to spend all of their hard earned money on unnecessary add-ons and which make ppc's really expensive. they rather concentrate on the elementary functions such as contacts, the diary function etc.

however, i also believe that there might be a third sort of hybrid group out there and where i see myself: people who would be prepared to pay a little bit more than for the standard ppc if they got a decent bit more for their money and could save money elsewhere:

if it was possible to eg. play for 10 hours nonstop music on a ppc - why not take advantage of such a 2-in-1 solution and save the cost for an unnecessary mp3 player?

why shouldn't it be possible to come up with a device that unites the advantages of say a 4 gb mp3 musicbox and a ppc?

if the big players in the world of ppc's don't come up with such a device it could well be apple to join forces with eg. palm to make such self-evident future happen.

ronaldo :!:

[Leo1]

<<We all play mp3/ogg/wma music on ours. However that is very inefficient use of the device. If we listen to an hour of music, that is 1 hour less battery life we have for access to our data. Even with the screen turned off, a PPC is a very inefficient portable music player.

I purchased a cheapo solid-state MP3 player (VirginPulse) for music playback. It's small, and can play over 10 hours of music on one AA battery. That allows me to have portable music in situations where I would feel uncomfortable using my PPC... BBQing at the grill, yardwork, washing the car, etc.>>


OK! But why on earth shouldn't it be possible for next PPCs to have extra space for, say one extra AA battery just for doing this job: playing over 10 hours of MP3 music. This would be a very efficient solution of portable music player plus PPC, wouldn't it?!

[ronaldo]

not sure whether the addition of such batteries would solve the underlying problem.

as far as i understand the playing of mp3 files use much more power on a pocket pc compared to an mp3 player because of the very different memory technologies of the 2 systems:

please correct me if i am wrong, but pocket pcs simply suck up much more energy because of their volatile memory being used.

and which brings me back to the initially raised issue: why not replace volatile memory with non-volatile memory which would really solve the problem!

as far as i know at the moment it's only flash ram on the market. but i've been told that also other technology, magno ram or something similar called, has evolved that could also do the job.

ronaldo :|

[Kacey Green]

not sure whether the addition of such batteries would solve the underlying problem.

as far as i understand the playing of mp3 files use much more power on a pocket pc compared to an mp3 player because of the very different memory technologies of the 2 systems:

please correct me if i am wrong, but pocket pcs simply suck up much more energy because of their volatile memory being used.

and which brings me back to the initially raised issue: why not replace volatile memory with non-volatile memory which would really solve the problem!

as far as i know at the moment it's only flash ram on the market. but i've been told that also other technology, magno ram or something similar called, has evolved that could also do the job.

ronaldo :|

M-Ram could be both ram and rom its really nifty, I can't wait, I hope they deliver on all their promices

[ronaldo]

does anyone know more about this mysterious m-ram?

[Leo1]

The first 16 megabit prototype magnetic RAMs have just been shown by IBM and Infineon.

Quite exciting stuff, really!

It's made of sort of special magnetic material which has the ability to store data. The chips can be produced by using standard CMOS processes. Result: manufacturing costs of those chips are much much cheaper!

Say goodbye to microdrives!!

[ronaldo]

...which basically means that also hitachi might be out of business very soon.

any idea of when these new memory types will ship and how much they will cost?

[Leo1]

Hey, be passionate. It's not out yet as far as I know. But shouldn't take that long. Cause, otherwise another new tehcnology will make the race.

Anyone heard of fuell cells that just run on methanol? That's pretty exciting stuff which could make batteries in PPCs obsolet.

[Chucky]

I think the discussion about why Pocket PCs cant play mp3's for 10+ hours is quite interesting, I had been thinking about just before I logged on and saw this post.

My solution (if I ever get off my ass and actually make a half decent program) would be a mp3 playing program that has a low-power mode. What it would do would first close all open programs except the music player, then completely turn off the screen (not just the backlight) and from there is would even go further to scale the processor down to 30mhz or so, just enough for mp3/ogg/wma decoding.

The main problem with this solution is (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have an xscale PPC atm) that to scale the processor would require a frustrating soft-reset, but as I said correct me those that have actually used a PPC cpu scaler.

From this point of view I imagine 10+ hours would be entirely possible, if you have a 600mhz processor capable of running under continous use for 2-3 hours, then with the screen off, no extra programs running and the CPU running at about 1/20 of its rated speed then surely there is a lot to be gained.

Throw a CF microdrive into the mix, some smart buffering and I don't imagine you would lose too much time. Indeed with a microdrive (or any other non-volatile memory) another program could be created so that if your battery gets below 10% everything in RAM is automatically backed up to the microdrive so that if it goes to 0% you can easily restore it.


I personally think this is a good idea, I rarely let my Pocket PC go to zero - but when you go on a two week road trip with your mates a Pocket PC is hardly appropriate luggage, thats whats happened to me, no doubt most of you can think of sometime where you have just forgotten about your Pocket PC and came back later to find it dead. It doesn't happen often, so I wouldn't mind having to run a restore app that takes a few minutes if it will bring it back to exactly how it was.


But these are all fixes to problems we would rather not have, so yeah, bring on the high speed, cheap and durable non-volatile memory.

[Kacey Green]

...which basically means that also hitachi might be out of business very soon.

any idea of when these new memory types will ship and how much they will cost?
not out of buisness, just out of the Micro Drive buisness

[ronaldo]

chucky,

>>go further to scale the processor down to 30mhz or so, just enough for mp3/ogg/wma decoding.

The main problem with this solution is (correct me if I'm wrong, I don't have an xscale PPC atm) that to scale the processor would require a frustrating soft-reset, but as I said correct me those that have actually used a PPC cpu scaler.

From this point of view I imagine 10+ hours would be entirely possible, if you have a 600mhz processor capable of running under continous use for 2-3 hours, then with the screen off, no extra programs running and the CPU running at about 1/20 of its rated speed then surely there is a lot to be gained.>>



in general i fully agree with your suggestion, but i believe it's not even necessary to speed the processor down in order to make major power gains. have a look at other mp3 players such as apple's ipod which runs on 133 mhz.

scaling down might extend the capability of playing mp3s say 10minutes in total, in my view. maybe there are real-world tests that provide more proven results as to how much the gain of scaling down would really be.

ronaldo
:roll:

[Cybrid]

Chucky,
Introducing a "magical " app that takes your ppc data and saves it in case of hard reset, low power conditions.

does backups when batteries run below specified %.
does backups when programmed to e.g. daily @ 4a.m.
does backups when requested.
Backups are self executable files that restore PPC to the condition when you made the backup.

www.spritesoftware.com
buy an sd/cf card your device is capable of using and try it out..10 day trial....
To the original poster, keep it simple. If you need power where you can't plug in....buy an additional "large" battery. With the above software you could survive long inactive periods on your device. Backup>remove battery (no drain)>pack>trip>unpack>attach battery>restore. This will not add to the time that you can use the device actively but will certainly prolong the time you can go without charging the device .

[Chucky]

Yeah I saw that program after making my post. Thanks anyway! My memory card atm is too small to back anything up ;)

As for scaling the CPU down as far as 30mhz, I agree its probably not neccessary to go quite that low, but I think you get the point. Also is it just me or is the iPods 133mhz processor quite fast for what many Mac fans will tell you is a very advanced processor? I could play mp3's on my Pentium 100 - but I guess the advanced parts are the parts that use little power.

[ronaldo]

as far as i know it's more to do with the memory management and less with the processor that uses up most of the power. as mentioned earlier my ppc loses between 7% and 11% per day just for sitting there and doing nothing!

however, i am still a bit puzzled where exactly the huge difference comes from between eg. apple's ipod that is capable of playing mp3 files 3 to 4 times longer than our flawed ppc's.

is it because apples non-volatile micro drive uses up so much less power when playing music files?

is it because apple's mp3 files are encoded in a different way that makes them less process hungry?

is it...?

ronaldo :?:

[surur]

I think you may be overestimating the prowess of the Ipod. Many pocketpc's can play an mp3 for 8 hours with the screen off. (which is similar to an old ipod). Besides the wireless stuff, the screen has always been the biggest battery drain.

To illustrate (http://www.epinions.com/content_115920834180)
Battery life of the 1000 ma-hr Li ion battery is ok, again an improvement over the e740. I tested battery life playing mp3 files from a compactflash card using WM2003's media player, and listening to headphones at full volume. With the CPU speed set at 400 mhz, it took a little over 5 hours to drain the battery from a full charge to 25%. With the cpu speed set at the lower 200mhz setting, it only took 20 minutes longer to drop from 99% to 25%.


and (http://www.ipaq.net/Forums/ShowPost.aspx?PostID=3058)
Battery life on my 5555 is at least 6 hours with the screen off, and I'll be damned if the wife will get me to do more than 6 hours of yard work on a single day.

There is 2 advances on the horizon which will improve things. One is white LED's instead of cold fluorescent lights, which uses less battery. The second is OLED screens, which still appear delayed (till next year maybe). The main problem is that as soon as the power usage of a device improves, the manufactures make the batteries smaller. Who would have thought anyone would release a device with a battery as small as 900mah. Yet many new devices ship with this.

The real reason of course why we worry about battery life so much is that when the power goes out, our devices are wiped. This effectively gives us 50% less power than we have available, as we get very nervous when we get below 50% (and your device will hardly function below 10%).

If this can be sorted, and running out of power would be similar to a soft-reset, we would be using our devices much more freely.

Surur

[ronaldo]

surur,

>>The real reason of course why we worry about battery life so much is that when the power goes out, our devices are wiped. This effectively gives us 50% less power than we have available, as we get very nervous when we get below 50% (and your device will hardly function below 10%).

If this can be sorted, and running out of power would be similar to a soft-reset, we would be using our devices much more freely.<<



that's exactly what i've been trying to find a solution for from the very beginning:

a flawless power management that lets us use our ppc's without any restraints and fear:

instead of saving all our data with volatile memory why not use non-volatile memory that keeps data forever even after all power has gone?! this is exactly what eg. apple is doing with its ipod and built-in microdrive.

and i believe that toshiba's e755 has already started going this way with a 32mb non-volatile flash ram.

maybe it's even possible to open our ppc's, get the built-in rom memory stuff out and simply put in a flash drive.

and now with the advent of magnetic rams it seems as if there is an even cheaper alternative in the very near future.

as for the comparison between ipod's and ppc's battery life:

is it the above mentioned toshiba e755 ppc that the test was based on?which might be the reason for the wonderful test results due to its improved memory management and which goes more towards apple's approach as mentioned above. my ipod eg. doesn't have li-ion batteries but a polymer version which i think can be found in most other ppcs.

anyway, your quoted test is based on a 1000mah li-ion battery which comes to 5h compared to apple's 8h with its weaker 850 mah li-ion battery. would be really interesting to see a direct comparison between the 2 devices.

as for the rest of ppc's i am still very sceptical about you saying that many ppc's can play mp3 for 8 hours: could you provide test results?

ronaldo



:idea:

[surur]

anyway, your quoted test is based on a 1000mah li-ion battery which comes to 5h compared to apple's 8h with its weaker 850 mah li-ion battery. would be really interesting to see a direct comparison between the 2 devices.

as for the rest of ppc's i am still very sceptical about you saying that many ppc's can play mp3 for 8 hours: could you provide test results?

ronaldo
:idea:

There is nothing special about the Toshiba pocketpc's. In fact they have a reputation for poor battery life. As for proof of 8 hour barry life/MP3 playback....

Ed Hansberry wrote (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=168577&highlight=battery+life+mp3+screen#168577)



Doesn't it have the ability to turn the screen off? Why would anyone play MP3s with the screen turned on? :D


From the users reviews I've read there isn't much point. Even with screen off it goes for less than 5 hours of playback.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum...?TOPIC_ID=16978
That's pathetic. I was getting almost 8hrs with an iPAQ 3600 with pure MP3/WMA playing and the screen off.

Youre not going to disagree with Ed, are you?

Surur

[ronaldo]

>>That's pathetic. I was getting almost 8hrs with an iPAQ 3600 with pure MP3/WMA playing and the screen off.<<


>>Youre not going to disagree with Ed, are you? <<


what shall i say? how is it possible for him to get 8 hours out of his ipaq 3600 while i am just able to get max. 4 hours out of mine which is an ipaq 3850.

btw, have you read the review on medion mdppc 100 in pocketpcthoughts written by christian torring. his review seems a bit more realistic even though it doesn't state at which volume level the files were played and which of course also makes a huge impact.

ronaldo

:wink:

[surur]

Battery: The manual says 8 hour of continuous use, and after that, you get 72 hours before data is lost. I have found the specifications for the Mitac Mio 338, which are much more detailed, and they say: Un-swappable Lithium Ion, 900mAh, Active - 8 hours, Suspend - 14 days, Shut Down Retain memory state for a minimum of 72 hours after low battery shut down. In formal testing I let it run with half brightness without using it. Half brightness is significantly brighter than on the Casio, but this is what I will compare it to because it is the most likely setting in practise. The Casio has a 950 mah Li-Ion battery and also runs at 200 MHz, but using the older StrongArm processor. During the testing the Casio had a CF card installed, and the Medion an SD card.

Results:
8-month-old Casio E200 with CF card: 3 hours 20 minutes before turn off (2:10 before first warning)

Medion with SD card: 5 hours before turn off (3:20 before first warning)
I think this is a surprisingly good result, considering the VERY high brightness the Medion has when run at this setting. I will do the same test, at the lowest setting, some other time.

The Medion could play MP3 files for 5 hours, with the screen turned off, before the battery level was too low to play.

I searched for the thread. He does not explain his methodology, but is very strange and unusual to get battery times equal with the screen on and with the screen off (both 5 hours) I can only assume he was playing full volume or at least very loud. If he was playing at normal volume through headphones (like on an Ipod), Im sure he would have made 8 hours. Making 5 hours at 1/2 brightness is actually very good. I normally run my xda 2 at the lowest brightness setting, which is usually very adequate, and of course always listen to music through headphones, so as not to disturb anyone else.

Just to repeat, 5 hours with the screen on at 1/2 brightness is very good, and indicated that 8 hours with the screen and backlight off is very achievable (at least with headphones)
Surur

[ronaldo]

>>Just to repeat, 5 hours with the screen on at 1/2 brightness is very good, and indicated that 8 hours with the screen and backlight off is very achievable (at least with headphones)

surur,

the test was done with the screen turned off and not as you stated above

(>>The Medion could play MP3 files for 5 hours, with the screen turned off, before the battery level was too low to play.)

also, to make an objective comparison there is some more critical elements that haven't been counted for - eg. at which level played mp3 files were compressed.

i would like to find a real objective comparison done between them - eg. same file format and file compression rate, same volume, screen switched off... you get my idea.

maybe, you as very experienced contributor to this forum might be able to find out.

surur, don't get me wrong. this posting isn't supposed to be an mp3 contest between apple's ipod and our ppc.

i would rather like to hear from real-world users about their mp3 experience and how long they were/are honestly able to play mp3 files on their devices. this way, i think we would get a much more realistic idea with hopefully non-embellished figues about the real mp3 capacity of our ppcs.

one of the contributers, sracer, previously admitted that
>>Even with the screen turned off, a PPC is a very inefficient portable music player.

as from my real-world experience, my ipaq is able to play mp3 files for a maximum length of almost 4hours (screen of course switched off), with volume set to 2 out of 5 (5 being the loudest level). compression rate of files is standard 128kbps throughout. songs being played from an 128 mb sd card.

ronaldo