WM2K3SE = 24 MB of RAM less in your Device!

[ctitanic]

Acording to MobileGadgetNews (http://www.mobilegadgetnews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1048&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0) the new OS claims 24 MB of RAM leaving you with only 32 MB to play with if you have just a 64 MB of RAM device. :evil:

[manywhere]

Acording to MobileGadgetNews (http://www.mobilegadgetnews.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=1048&mode=thread&order=0&thold=0) the new OS claims 24 MB of RAM leaving you with only 32 MB to play with if you have just a 64 MB of RAM device. :evil:
What kind of math is that? This is more like it: 24+32=56 MB or 64-24= 40 MB... :?

[ctitanic]

The current memory available in a h2215 is 57.11 MB.

If you check the picture in the above menitioned article, right after the upgrade you have available only 32.11 MB of RAM for storage and programs.

57.11-32.11=25 (Sorry, I said 24 MB)

[ctitanic]

http://www.todopocketpc.com/foro/attachment.php?attachmentid=4060

[PR.]

Well as it says its only a beta and some of the inbuilt options don't work corerectly yet!

[rock]

Hehehehe, luckily my e805 has 128 MB of RAM. 8)

[Jacob]

I sure hope they fix that whole memory usage.. I'm not sure if I want my available memory to go that low just for what it'll give me.

[ctitanic]

Well as it says its only a beta and some of the inbuilt options don't work corerectly yet!

Yeah, but to decrease that number from 25 to lets say 5 MB sounds to me just imposible ;)

[ChristopherTD]

It could be that the beta is resident in RAM instead of ROM, so therefore consumes all that RAM. Possibly the final version will reside in ROM?

My knowledge of the memory architecture is minimal, so I could be talking complete nonsense...

[Jacob]

It's also possible that there is debug code in there - which is usually bigger than the optimized code, who knows?

All I know is I'm not gonna be the first to upgrade :?

[paolo]

Sounds depressing - massive footprint, problems with soft-resets, no bluetooth support (wtf is that about???)

Hope they iron all this out before final release...

When's that due btw?

[ctitanic]

It's also possible that there is debug code in there - which is usually bigger than the optimized code, who knows?

All I know is I'm not gonna be the first to upgrade :?

The difference between those two codes are no more than 15%.

About having the OS running completly in RAM instead of ROM, well I don´t know if that´s possible and this is the case we have here.

[Jacob]

I didn't think the difference would account for all of it, but who knows?

I would be disappointed if I would have to give up a hefty chunk of RAM just for this.

I might be able swallow losing the iPAQ file store.

[PR.]

Your gonna have debug code in there probably unoptimised resource files and code.

This is one of the main reasons companies don't release public betas because people download them then make judgements on unfinished code.

If you tried XP Beta you would see that was unoptimised and it didn't run correctly on all devices it was also quite bloated in both HDD and RAM consumption...

I think we should all hold judgement until the final comes out :)

[Sven Johannsen]

Sounds depressing - massive footprint, problems with soft-resets, no bluetooth support (wtf is that about???)


It's a beta, provided to developers, for preview. Wait till it is released and you may be more pleased.

[omikron.sk]

It's also possible that there is debug code in there - which is usually bigger than the optimized code, who knows?

All I know is I'm not gonna be the first to upgrade :?

The difference between those two codes are no more than 15%.

About having the OS running completly in RAM instead of ROM, well I don´t know if that´s possible and this is the case we have here.

WTF are you talking about. If you were a programmer/developer (you are probably not, if you are saying this) then you would know, that (any) debug version is 2 - 5 times larger than final release. OK, let's say this is already a quite coming-to-the-final beta version. But I don't think that it is less than 1,5-3 times larger than the final version will be.

[Pat Logsdon]

WTF are you talking about. If you were a programmer/developer (you are probably not, if you are saying this) then you would know, that (any) debug version is 2 - 5 times larger than final release.
Let's tone it down a bit, please. Ctitanic *is* a developer/programmer - the links in his sig are the programs he's written.

Feel free to disagree, but please do so respectfully.

[ctitanic]

WTF are you talking about. If you were a programmer/developer (you are probably not, if you are saying this) then you would know, that (any) debug version is 2 - 5 times larger than final release.
Let's tone it down a bit, please. Ctitanic *is* a developer/programmer - the links in his sig are the programs he's written.

Feel free to disagree, but please do so respectfully.

Thanks Pat ... I never have found a file compiled by me in eVC with debug info 5 time bigger than the same file compiled with that information. But I'm just a hobiest ;)

[ctitanic]

In another hand, I never have seen a beta coming from MS compiled with debug code and I believe they do that to avoid people deamsambling the code (reverse eng.).

[omikron.sk]

Sorry for the tone. I didn't mean it so bad. I just programmed a few years for many different platforms (including PPC) in many different languages.

About EVC - most of the code of the OS won't be written in it, anyway.

Once again, sorry for that tone.

[ctitanic]

No problem....
But did you really think that MS will release anything compiled with debug information inside? Anyone doing that knows that those file can be very easy disamsambled.

[ctitanic]

Basically what I think about this topic is that may be part of the code is not optimized yet and is being copied to RAM so it can run while this can't be done from ROM. In the current ROM about 6 MB has to be copied to RAM so the OS can work. I was expecting the same thing in this second edition but only a few MBs more.

One of the reasons about those 24 MBs can be that those files had to be compressed so they could fit in 32 MB of ROM and they have to be uncompressed in RAM so they can be used. If this is the case I'm afraid that no much can be done to avoid this situation.

[omikron.sk]

You're right, but I still believe this more than that Microsoft wants to cut half of my RAM.
Most of the code is not needed (compiled as final or as debug) and especially at apps as complicated as OS is it is very hard to find and remove it. You know:

Sentence 1:
Every code longer than 1 line can be shorten by 1 line.

Sentence 2:
There's an error in every code.

Result:
Every code can be shorten to exactly one line, in which is an error.

[omikron.sk]

Basically what I think about this topic is that may be part of the code is not optimized yet and is being copied to RAM so it can run while this can't be done from ROM. In the current ROM about 6 MB has to be copied to RAM so the OS can work. I was expecting the same thing in this second edition but only a few MBs more.

One of the reasons about those 24 MBs can be that those files had to be compressed so they could fit in 32 MB of ROM and they have to be uncompressed in RAM so they can be used. If this is the case I'm afraid that no much can be done to avoid this situation.
It would be interesting to know how much space does it cuts from your ROM (perhaps a half-empty ROM and half-wasted RAM? 8) )

[ctitanic]

You're right, but I still believe this more than that Microsoft wants to cut half of my RAM.
Most of the code is not needed (compiled as final or as debug) and especially at apps as complicated as OS is it is very hard to find and remove it. You know:

Sentence 1:
Every code longer than 1 line can be shorten by 1 line.

Sentence 2:
There's an error in every code.

Result:
Every code can be shorten to exactly one line, in which is an error.

I agree with you but even if we both think in that way this give us that 12.5 MB of RAM will be taking by the OS which is a big big amount too.
:wink:

[ctitanic]

Basically what I think about this topic is that may be part of the code is not optimized yet and is being copied to RAM so it can run while this can't be done from ROM. In the current ROM about 6 MB has to be copied to RAM so the OS can work. I was expecting the same thing in this second edition but only a few MBs more.

One of the reasons about those 24 MBs can be that those files had to be compressed so they could fit in 32 MB of ROM and they have to be uncompressed in RAM so they can be used. If this is the case I'm afraid that no much can be done to avoid this situation.
It would be interesting to know how much space does it cuts from your ROM (perhaps a half-empty ROM and half-wasted RAM? 8) )

Well, this is something that I don't know and I don't understand, in our current ROM from those 32 MB we still have space there but the fact is that around 6~7 MB of ROM has to be copied to RAM so the OS can work. This is why I said that I was expecting to see the same thing in this SE but I never thought that those 6 MB could get the amount of 25 MB.

[omikron.sk]

Well, this is something that I don't know and I don't understand, in our current ROM from those 32 MB we still have space there but the fact is that around 6~7 MB of ROM has to be copied to RAM so the OS can work. This is why I said that I was expecting to see the same thing in this SE but I never thought that those 6 MB could get the amount of 25 MB.
I think that the fact that OS needs also some space in RAM is the fact that some (higher-level) parts of OS are regular executables and they are better run from storage RAM while they don't need to be copied to program RAM.
Pocket PCs handle a process running apps in storage RAM without (or almost without) copying it to program RAM. I don't know how exactly it works and things I just wrote here may be a nonsenses, but I think, that they are quite probable.
Another possibility (which I don't believe) is that OS is simply larger than 32MB and doesn't fit whole in the ROM. Therefor it cuts some space from RAM. - Do you have any experiences with devices with larger ROMs (perhaps 64MB ?) - does the OS cut some space of RAM in them, too?

[ctitanic]

Another possibility (which I don't believe) is that OS is simply larger than 32MB and doesn't fit whole in the ROM. Therefor it cuts some space from RAM. - Do you have any experiences with devices with larger ROMs (perhaps 64MB ?) - does the OS cut some space of RAM in them, too?

That's not possible, these are different chips (technology) so there is a hardware border that can't be broken. But... like I said part of the ROM files could be compressed and uncompressed during a hard reset to Storage RAM from where they can be used.

[omikron.sk]

Another possibility (which I don't believe) is that OS is simply larger than 32MB and doesn't fit whole in the ROM. Therefor it cuts some space from RAM. - Do you have any experiences with devices with larger ROMs (perhaps 64MB ?) - does the OS cut some space of RAM in them, too?

That's not possible, these are different chips (technology) so there is a hardware border that can't be broken. But... like I said part of the ROM files could be compressed and uncompressed during a hard reset to Storage RAM from where they can be used.
I didn't mean to break the border, I thought about simply storing some parts of OS in RAM. Your idea with uncompressing files ROM->RAM looks pretty probable as well.

[ctitanic]

I didn't mean to break the border, I thought about simply storing some parts of OS in RAM. Your idea with uncompressing files ROM->RAM looks pretty probable as well.

What will happen in a hard reset? will you have to reinstall the OS? This is why I think that that part is compressed and kept in ROM.

[omikron.sk]

BTW: do you think that changes in "new OS" may eat that amount of space? I think that they will be only several MBs large (when compared to WM2k3).
BTW 2: are all diferences between WM2k3 Premium and Professional lost? Does the WM2k3SE include whole Prof. edition? Or am I missing something and WM2k3SE is also divided into Prem. and Prof. edition?

[ctitanic]

BTW: do you think that changes in "new OS" may eat that amount of space? I think that they will be only several MBs large (when compared to WM2k3).

Keep in mind that the whole OS has been redesigned to work in both orientation that will add a lot of code to the current OS. ;)


BTW 2: are all diferences between WM2k3 Premium and Professional lost? Does the WM2k3SE include whole Prof. edition? Or am I missing something and WM2k3SE is also divided into Prem. and Prof. edition?

I don't know yet. I have not read anything from where I could have an idea of what version has been taken as base for SE.

[omikron.sk]

I created a poll ( http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=26405 ). Would you upgrade to WM2k3SE if it would cut some space of your RAM?

[Zack Mahdavi]

I honestly don't think that there will be a big change in the amount of space the operating system consumes on your RAM.

Debug code is always larger than the actual code... so don't worry about it too much until the final OS is released.

[Andy Whiteford]

I see no way how the final rom update for SE will take up twice the memory of the current WM2003.
For starters, it appears there will be very little new in the way of additional components e.g. Landscape and VGA support but little else new. The rest seem to be changes and refinements to existing components such as PIE and of course fixing the alarms! lol.
Add to this that there will also quite likely be optimisations to code making it smaller and more efficient and overall I would be surprised if WM2003SE is not about the same size as WM2003 or at worse, slightly larger.

Anyone else agree?

[Stephen Beesley]

I see no way how the final rom update for SE will take up twice the memory of the current WM2003.
For starters, it appears there will be very little new in the way of additional components e.g. Landscape and VGA support but little else new. The rest seem to be changes and refinements to existing components such as PIE and of course fixing the alarms! lol.
Add to this that there will also quite likely be optimisations to code making it smaller and more efficient and overall I would be surprised if WM2003SE is not about the same size as WM2003 or at worse, slightly larger.

Anyone else agree?

Makes sense to me!

Of course what would I know.... :D

[ctitanic]

I see no way how the final rom update for SE will take up twice the memory of the current WM2003.
For starters, it appears there will be very little new in the way of additional components e.g. Landscape and VGA support but little else new. The rest seem to be changes and refinements to existing components such as PIE and of course fixing the alarms! lol.
Add to this that there will also quite likely be optimisations to code making it smaller and more efficient and overall I would be surprised if WM2003SE is not about the same size as WM2003 or at worse, slightly larger.

Anyone else agree?

Like I said already in another forum, the landscape support is not so simple, every little program that you have now in your ROM had to be redesigned adding the needed code so they work and look fine in landscape and protrait.

[ctitanic]

Debug code is always larger than the actual code... so don't worry about it too much until the final OS is released.

I don't believe that a developer like Microsoft will give away a program with a debug code that can be easily disassambled. So this theory I don't think is real.

[Zack Mahdavi]

Debug code is always larger than the actual code... so don't worry about it too much until the final OS is released.

I don't believe that a developer like Microsoft will give away a program with a debug code that can be easily disassambled. So this theory I don't think is real.

It's not that the code can be easily disassembled since the code is compiled. The code is compiled in and has not been "commented" out. There is no way of extracting this code from the compiled OS. That's my theory...

[Janak Parekh]

I don't believe that a developer like Microsoft will give away a program with a debug code that can be easily disassambled. So this theory I don't think is real.
Actually, they've given various beta packages with debugging symbols before. Decompiled C/C++ code with debugging symbols is still a huge mess, so I don't think they're too worried about _that_. :)

--janak

[KenClunk]

I don't know about everyone else but I barely have any of my programs on the Main memory anyways. All of my stuff is on a 64mb CF card and that's with 24Games and around 10 other programs. I use an SD card for music. Even though I don't really want that memory to be gone, I don't think it will affect me that much. As long as my program memory is good enough to run the programs I don't care.