Dell, Customer Oriented Company, or Cancelling Old Commitments?

[Jonathon Watkins]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=aximgensw&message.id=8655&view=by_date_ascending&page=1' target='_blank'>http://forums.us.dell.com/supportfo...scending&page=1</a><br /><br /></div>Two days ago <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=229472">we reported</a> that Dell was not planning on offering Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition updates to existing Axim X3 or X5 users. :( I wonder if they could have predicted what the reaction would be?<br /><br /> <img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/Dell.gif" /> <br /><br />As an existing Axim X5 user myself I am not at all happy with Dell about this. I know a lot of you feel the same way and I would like to encourage you to contact Dell directly and tell them so, as well as signing <a href="http://forums.us.dell.com/supportforums/board/message?board.id=aximgensw&amp;message.id=8655&amp;view=by_date_ascending&amp;page=1">this Aximsite petition</a> on the Dell Forums. (Just say you want the upgrade and put your service tag in your profile. Only Dell can see it). <a href="http://www.aximsite.com/boards/showthread.php?s=&amp;threadid=37042&amp;perpage=20&amp;pagenumber=1">There are signs </a> that Dell may be reconsidering their initial unwise decision, especially in the light of HP and Toshiba not only offering the Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition updates to existing users, but offering them for free as well! :| Dell have been apparently been upgrading X3is at MDC after users signed a waver and NDA, so the upgrade capability clearly is there. :? <br /><br />Now I feel that it would be reasonable for Dell to charge a nominal fee for the update, but not even offering one is a slap in the face of loyal customers. Perhaps they are worried about another upgrade fiasco like the last one – <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15845&amp;">multiple rapidly pulled ROMs, late delivery etc</a>. If they offer a downloadable update then they could quickly get the support of their users back again. It's not an unreasonable request.<br /><br />Toshiba clearly learned the lesson the last time they tried to pull something like this and are supporting their current users this time round. Up to this point I have been unreservedly recommending Dells to folks wanting PPCs, but if this is the level of customer support they are prepared to offer, then I will be suggesting that people look elsewhere in future. I was looking forward to the X7, but this may well be my first and last Dell if the situation does not change. :evil: <br /><br />Dell claims to be a customer oriented company. Well – the customers are speaking – are you listening Dell? :?:

[Mitch D]

I added my name to the petition on Dell's forum, I should have added the links to the discusions here and on a few other sites to show Dell how their customers feel about this issue.

I encourage all Axim Users to go to Dell's Forum (Link in Jonathon's post) and politely let Dell know you want them to release the WM2003SE update to all of it's users; old and new!

[c38b2]

It's not fair how everyone gives Toshiba (now Dell) grief for not providing WM2003 updates last summer. I think it's unreasonable to expect upgrades, especially for products that were already or about to be off the market anyways. The mobile device platform is not like the Windows platform - it is clear because the updates do not come directly from Microsoft. You buy a mobile device that suits your needs - if you want an updated OS, buy a new device.

[smbruce]

I'm with Jonathon on this one.

Steve

[shawnc]

... especially in the light of HP and Toshiba not only offering the Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition updates to existing users, but offering them for free as well!

REALLY??? This is great news for HP owners. OK, back on topic.

[bvkeen]

It miffed me enough that (1) I cancelled the order I had with them for a laptop and (2) I just ordered an e800 and will sell my X3i when the e800 arrives. At my age (54), I just don't put up with things the way I used to. The X3i is a fine device (I'm composing this message with it), but one of the reasons I bought it a few weeks ago was because I figured Dell would support it. I hoped they would impress me more than HP did when the replacement sidegrips for my 2215 turned out being no better than the originals. I sure hope Toshiba doesn't disappoint me: customer no-service, combined with my impatience, is getting costly. 8O

[Jonathon Watkins]

It's not fair how everyone gives Toshiba (now Dell) grief for not providing WM2003 updates last summer. I think it's unreasonable to expect upgrades, especially for products that were already or about to be off the market anyways.

I bought a device from Dell, expecting support for a reasonable amount of time after the device was obsoleted. If you look at the US Dell website, they are still selling the X5 - it is a *current* product. It is perfectly fair to criticise Dell for their current shortsighted policy.

I am prepared to pay for the upgrade to cover their expenses. It's not like we're asking for it for free (although other manufactures are doing this).

IF we could upgrade ourselves then I would see the point of what you are saying. However - we are reliant on the manufactures to write, integrate and package the upgrades. The manufactures that provide an update path will in the long term receive more customers. It's in the manufacturer's own interest to do this.

The mobile device platform is not like the Windows platform - it is clear because the updates do not come directly from Microsoft. You buy a mobile device that suits your needs - if you want an updated OS, buy a new device.

No - you are incorrect in this. I did not buy an embedded device. I bought a *Pocket PC*. The upgrade capability is there - Flash ROM and all that. If Dell think that by not offering me an updated OS I will upgrade to another on of their devices then they have another thing coming. I will migrate to Asus, HP or even Toshiba. That's their choice to not offer an upgrade - that's my choice (and advice) not to buy another Dell.

Dell are the odd ones out here. Every other manufacturer is offering upgrades - often for free. It is reasonable to ask Dell to do the same.

[JonnoB]

It's not fair how everyone gives Toshiba (now Dell) grief for not providing WM2003 updates last summer. I think it's unreasonable to expect upgrades, especially for products that were already or about to be off the market anyways.
The X3i is a new device. How is it not fair to expect Dell to at least offer comparable service as other Pocket PC manufacturers? If HP, ASUS, Toshiba, etc will offer an upgrade (perhaps even free) on its latest hardware, why wouldn't X3i owners expect the same?

[Icebaron]

especially in the light of HP and Toshiba not only offering the Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition updates to existing users, but offering them for free as well!

Has there been any word yet as to WHEN these updates will be offered? I've been waiting to update my 2210 to 1.10 to see if anyone reported any problems, and now that there may be a release supporting landscape, I might just hold off a little longer.

[Mitch D]

The mobile device platform is not like the Windows platform - it is clear because the updates do not come directly from Microsoft. You buy a mobile device that suits your needs - if you want an updated OS, buy a new device.

This is exactly why companies should be offering upgrades, I don't exactly agree with the "free upgrade" because I am aware that there is a cost involved for the company to develope the upgrade.

They design the units to be upgraded, as mentioned by Jonathon in his second post, and with that ability comes the expectation that they will support the unit not just with ROM updates to correct errors but with OS updates (within reason).

I bought my Axim in November of last year and it still has 6 1/2 months of warranty left. I should not have to go out and buy a new PPC just because a new OS is released. If the unit is capable of supporting a new version of a Windows Mobile OS then the option of upgrading to it should be made avaiable to me. Toshiba was wrong when it came to the E740 but they chose not to correct the issue which cost them in terms of sales and reputation.

:soapbox:

[huangzhinong]

It's not fair how everyone gives Toshiba (now Dell) grief for not providing WM2003 updates last summer. I think it's unreasonable to expect upgrades, especially for products that were already or about to be off the market anyways. The mobile device platform is not like the Windows platform - it is clear because the updates do not come directly from Microsoft. You buy a mobile device that suits your needs - if you want an updated OS, buy a new device.

It's correct for POS devices, but not PPC.

[MonkeyGrass]

... I sure hope Toshiba doesn't disappoint me: customer no-service, combined with my impatience, is getting costly. 8O

Hate to disappoint you man, but if you are looking for decent support, Toshiba is NOT the way to go. Been there, done that, got the headache and the ulcer to prove it. :|

Don't waste your time (or money) on Toshiba. One of the big reasons Dell started to get a foothold in the PPC market, was all the infuriated e740 owners dropping Toshiba like a bad habit and migrating to X5's.

[marconelly]

Where can I see if I can expect this OS upgrade for my Ipaq h1945?

[joelevi]

Where can I see if I can expect this OS upgrade for my Ipaq h1945?

Or for my 4155?

[bvkeen]

... I sure hope Toshiba doesn't disappoint me: customer no-service, combined with my impatience, is getting costly. 8O

Hate to disappoint you man, but if you are looking for decent support, Toshiba is NOT the way to go. Been there, done that, got the headache and the ulcer to prove it. :|

Thanks for the warning. Given that I've had great success with their laptops, I guess I'll go ahead and take the chance. Wish me luck, and thanks again!

[dorelse]

According to Ed Hardy's sources from his Brighthand article:

HP will release updates only for the h2215, h4155, h4355, h5155, and h5555.

This means there will be no updates for discontinued models like the h3000 series or the h1910 and h1935. It also means there won't be one for the h1945, a model that HP is still offering right now.

Marc Boudreau from iPAQabilities says he was told by his source at HP that there wouldn't be h1935 or h1945 updates because these models lack enough space in their ROM.

As my 4355 has a somewhat 'odd' OS footprint due to its keyboard, I'm hopeful I'll receive an update as well, but I also expect it to take a little longer because of it as well. I exclusively looked at HP's when I bought my PPC due to their history of providing updates, although I considered Dell's X3i as well. I avoided Toshiba's due to their decision to leave their 740 owners out in the cold.

Here's the full story:

http://www.brighthand.com/article/When_Will_WM03SE_Updates_Be_Available

[Jonathon Watkins]

But Toshiba seem to have learnt from their previous debacle. They are offering free upgrades for their current models. They found about customer service and satisfaction the hard way. Lets hope that Dell take the easy route and give their customers what they want.

[sylvangale]

This goes to show... you don't cut off support of a PDA when an editor for PPC thoughts owns one. 8)

None of the editors own an h1945? No front page lambast of HP? It is a current model too... :helpme:

And before someone quotes brighthand's "not enough rom" excuse, both the h1945 and h2210 are currently being advertised and sold as having 64MB ram and 32MB rom. :oops:

:duh:

[dorelse]

And before someone quotes brighthand's "not enough rom" excuse, both the h1945 and h2210 are currently being advertised and sold as having 64MB ram and 32MB rom.

Sorry, beat you to it. 8)

I had a 1910 when WM2003 came out, and HP said to one of the PPC sites something to the effect of the 1900 series being a low-end unit which would never receive upgrades, only the higher end series would. But that was before when the 1910 had 16 MB ROM, not 32 MB, true.

That's just me paraphrasing of course, but that did steer me clear of looking to the 1900 series when I sold the 1910 and moved up.

I think the key is that the 1900 series get installed with WM2003 Professional, not WM2003 Premium. The Professional version has a smaller footprint, and costs less, allowing the price to be a little lower. I'm assuming that the lower price, also means HP isn't going to invest $$ into upgrades for it, as that must pull in some additional support costs that are then passed on to us in the MSRP of the 'Premium OS' devices.

No front page lambast of HP? It is a current model too...
Actually, there was some initial uprising when the 1910 was excluded from a WM2003 upgrade...and I believe that prompted the HP response.

I hope you do get your upgrade, I'd be surprised, but I do hope you get it. The 1945 is a nice device. Good Luck. :rock on dude!:[/quote]

[sylvangale]

Problem is the h1940/5 was by no means low-end till the 4000 series came out, which was not too long ago... and is really the next model up from the h1940/5.

Should certainly make one wonder if the 4000 series will lose their support when the next device with its form factor comes out.

[Foo Fighter]

I don't quite understand all the fuss. Although I currently use an iPaq 1945, I still have my old X5 basic, which I never expected Dell to keep supporting with OS upgrades. The primary advantage of SE is its support for VGA screens. The X5 isn't VGA capable, so what would I need this upgrade for?

[dorelse]

Problem is the h1940/5 was by no means low-end till the 4000 series came out, which was not too long ago... and is really the next model up from the h1940/5.

Well, specs-wise, maybe not...but it does start with 19**, is in their 'entry' level series, ships with WM2003 Professional, and lines up with Brighthand Ed's sources. Its an awesome PPC...no reason to give it up if no upgrade is developed for it.

Should certainly make one wonder if the 4000 series will lose their support when the next device with its form factor comes out.

Its always a possibility, definitely. I bought my 4355 based on what it can do today...with the hope HP would provide an upgrade if feasible. If they can't...no sweat...it doesn't lose any functionality tomorrow from what it has today.

You're definitely right about the specs though...nearly identical to the 2200 series. Hopefully HP will pull through. The site Brighthand is quoting is a little suspect isn't it? Saying the 1940's won't be upgraded due to a lack of ROM space, when it clearly does have room if the 2200 is being upgraded....I'm pullin' for you.

[dorelse]

I don't quite understand all the fuss. Although I currently use an iPaq 1945, I still have my old X5 basic, which I never expected Dell to keep supporting with OS upgrades. The primary advantage of SE is its support for VGA screens. The X5 isn't VGA capable, so what would I need this upgrade for?

Two words:

Landscape Support.

[sylvangale]

*ahem*

Other than VGA support...

Dynamic Screen rotation!!! , updated internet explorer, transcriber shortcuts, high rez icons for QVGA, and an enchanced start menu (which hopefully works better than WinXP implementation of remembering).

The update also includes WPA which was just added to the h1945 via its recent rom update...

[jimski]

I am not going to debate whether an OEM should or should not provide OS updates. Generally it probably makes good business sense to offer upgrades for current and recently discontinued models, but when people start sobbing over no upgrade for their iPAQ 3600, that's going a bit too far.

What I don't understand is why do people think they need to throw their PPC off of a tall building if an upgrade is not provided. My 5450 is still running Pocket PC 2002 (can you remember that far back). When WM2003 came out I wanted to wait for all the excitement to clear and after reading a few so so reviews on 5450 upgrade problems I decided to hold off upgrading until I needed to hard reset my device. Well, I gotta say that this has been the most stable PPC I have every owned (and this is number 11) and still has not required a hard reset. Sure, I am missing a few WM2003 features any maybe some speed, but these are all things that I can live with until my next PPC purchase.

Honestly, I am not dissapointed that HP is not planning an upgrade for the 5450. After all, the model is 16 months old. Hopefully they will not make me wait much longer for a new WM2003SE device, one that has been designed to take full advantage of what this new OS has to offer.

[sylvangale]

The 3600 is a bit dated comparison.

Prior to the 4000 series PDA the most popular PDAs from HP were 1945 and 2215 and for $100 difference you sacrifice a CF slot, but gain in a compact sizing (then you buy a cradle...). Neither PDA being signaficantly older than the other (not even a month).

If HP had rolled out a newer model similar to the 2210 and called it a 6000 series model and announced it will offer OS upgrades for the 1945... Would that be more or less acceptable?

[Fishie]

It miffed me enough that (1) I cancelled the order I had with them for a laptop and (2) I just ordered an e800 and will sell my X3i when the e800 arrives. At my age (54), I just don't put up with things the way I used to. The X3i is a fine device (I'm composing this message with it), but one of the reasons I bought it a few weeks ago was because I figured Dell would support it. I hoped they would impress me more than HP did when the replacement sidegrips for my 2215 turned out being no better than the originals. I sure hope Toshiba doesn't disappoint me: customer no-service, combined with my impatience, is getting costly. 8O

I can guarantee that you will LOVE the e800/805 despite its size.
I know I do.

[Fishie]

Problem is the h1940/5 was by no means low-end till the 4000 series came out, which was not too long ago... and is really the next model up from the h1940/5.

Should certainly make one wonder if the 4000 series will lose their support when the next device with its form factor comes out.

The next update in the 4xxx series of Ipaqs that has a built in thumb keyboard will have a square 480by480 screen.

[Jaap van Ees]

Honestly, I am not dissapointed that HP is not planning an upgrade for the 5450. After all, the model is 16 months old. Hopefully they will not make me wait much longer for a new WM2003SE device, one that has been designed to take full advantage of what this new OS has to offer.

Well, I am extremely disappointed. I can imagine HP will not do upgrades for a ppc well over 2 years old. But the 5450 is less than one and a half year old. I bought mine as soon as it was available in The Netherlands (yes, HP/NL is very slow), which was just about one year ago. Now it seems the upgradeability of my 5450 may have already ended. I think I could live with the idea that I would have to pay for the update. But to be left in the cold like this, if it proves to be true, will be totally unacceptable. If it comes to this, I will not will not whine, nor will I do petitions. I will simply stop buying HP-products.

[enemy2k2]

As an X5 owner I hope they offer an update. Mostly I'm interested in the improved IE, and landscape support for that. WM2K3 was a lot more stable for me than PPC2K2 was on my Ax, it also improved speed quite a bit. In addition to the new features and improved software, I hope this version even further increases speed and stability. If they don't release it, I guess it would be no big deal for me I'll just stick to what I have until either it dies or something really compelling comes out. Though it would be nice to be able to update it again to be current, enjoy some new features, speed, and stability.

[bvkeen]

It miffed me enough that (1) I cancelled the order I had with them for a laptop and (2) I just ordered an e800 ... 8O

I can guarantee that you will LOVE the e800/805 despite its size.
I know I do.

Thank you - I am looking forward to it!

[PPCMD]

I post this as a PPCPE 2002 user who is waiting for WMPE2003 so we can receive some of the "promised" features that were left out. T-MO and ATT did it now we wait for Verizon.

Some people say a Phone edition device is not the same as a standard PPC PDA, but I disagree. My device was launched in May 2003, has strong sales and will continue to be sold most likely until late this year when something new hits Verizon.

I ask this question, how many OS updates should a company offer whether for FREE or at a PRICE? At what point will users say, hey maybe I should get a new devices?

I believe that the mfg's should support, develop and release a ROM Update for at least one revision and possibly two. I wonder what happens when the X3i, X5, etc. are still on sale next year when WM2005 comes out, will DELL still be asked to update the ROM?

[Hx4700]

PPCMD,
See if this makes sense:
1. if Dell is still selling the X5 and OS 2004 or 2005 is out (and for sure WM2003SE), it seems they would then be selling the X5 with the current OS installed (maybe some reasonable delay) to be competitive. And the large X5 ROM should support it, except for the full VGA of course. (I really think a useful landscape mode alone makes the upgrade desirable)
2. If 1 above is true, then the OS does indeed work on the X5, then why couldn't the Upgrade be made available for the current X5's for a reasonable priced CD as they did for WM2003??? Price might even cover (or partly) the development of the CD if enough sell, and it appears they would with all this uproar.
Just seems logical to me.
Ron...

[Jonathan1]

It's not fair how everyone gives Toshiba (now Dell) grief for not providing WM2003 updates last summer. I think it's unreasonable to expect upgrades, especially for products that were already or about to be off the market anyways. The mobile device platform is not like the Windows platform - it is clear because the updates do not come directly from Microsoft. You buy a mobile device that suits your needs - if you want an updated OS, buy a new device.


Funny. If I buy a laptop from Dell I’d fully expect them to support Microsoft’s latest and greatest OS. Why is it that there are automatic assumptions that if it’s a PDA manufacturers don’t need to support them after X time. Back to the laptop analogy if I purchased a Latitude 1 year before XP came out don’t you think I should expect support for that OS!??! What makes a PDA any different? Just because you are loading the OS onto ROM instead of a hard drive is NO excuse.

[Jacob]

Funny. If I buy a laptop from Dell I’d fully expect them to support Microsoft’s latest and greatest OS. Why is it that there are automatic assumptions that if it’s a PDA manufacturers don’t need to support them after X time. Back to the laptop analogy if I purchased a Latitude 1 year before XP came out don’t you think I should expect support for that OS!??! What makes a PDA any different? Just because you are loading the OS onto ROM instead of a hard drive is NO excuse.

Is it the same? I'm not sure. If you buy a laptop from Dell then XP comes out and doesn't support the video card in the laptop.

Do you expect Dell to replace the video card? I wouldn't.

They are two different things though. I think the history of providing these updates provides the precedent and hence expectation that companies will provide the update.

If companies never offered these upgrades, noone would expect them.

Even with this precedent it's valid for Dell to not provide the update, it's also just as valid for people to choose not to buy Dell because of it. Heck, that's the free market. I don't think Dell is stupide enough to not know that there would be a vocal group demanding this. The question I have is whether the group is so much bigger than Dell's estimate that it will change their decision.

[Jonathan1]

Is it the same? I'm not sure. If you buy a laptop from Dell then XP comes out and doesn't support the video card in the laptop.

Do you expect Dell to replace the video card? I wouldn't.

They are two different things though. I think the history of providing these updates provides the precedent and hence expectation that companies will provide the update.

If companies never offered these upgrades, noone would expect them.

Even with this precedent it's valid for Dell to not provide the update, it's also just as valid for people to choose not to buy Dell because of it. Heck, that's the free market. I don't think Dell is stupide enough to not know that there would be a vocal group demanding this. The question I have is whether the group is so much bigger than Dell's estimate that it will change their decision.

When XP came out Dell had an upgrade utility to run on your laptop to see if it would work. They release new drivers and BIOS upgrades when XP came out. They did all that was possible, within reason, to allow users to upgrade. Currently we are doing some testing on 3 year old Dell Latitudes to see how well they run XP. Dell has full driver support for these laptops. This is good customer service. And just about every hardware vendor does the same. Go to gateway, Dell, HP, Toshiba. Most do offer upgrade paths to XP.

PPC2003SE is really no different other then someone decided that since it was a PDA its not worth the time and effort. Its changing a person's mindset that a PDA shouldn't be upgradable is the problem here.

[tthiel]

Dells quality and customer serivce has dropped dramatically over the past few years. I think they are taking their customers for granted. Not to mention they are shipping as many jobs to India as fast as they possibly can. I no longer buy from Dell for all of these reasons.

[rugerx]

Interesting that Dell would consider not upgrading recent purchasers a sound business plan? Oh well, its probably the same guy that decided to send support calls to India. :hippy: What was that guy smokin?

My company has over 300 Dell servers that are repurchased on a 3 year basis. We were being routed to India support on 25k $ servers. Oh no you dont!

That is why our 500k $ budget has moved to HP. No more Dell, period. They at least value customers business, and they are falling all over themselves with glee at stealing the business from Dell. Funny part is, it took Dell almost 6 months to figure out that we had stopped ordering, and just now our enterprise sales person is calling wondering whats up.


Said in my best Hapu voice...
"Thank you for calling Dell! Would you like a squishy?"

[edramsey]

One issue for me is that in addition to purchasing two X5s, I purchased a three year maintenance contract on one of them. It seems reasonable that if they are willing to sell a maintenance contract for three years they should be willing to keep it updated for three years. Part of the hype about the X5 was "all the room in rom" for rom updates. I certainly expect my old laptops to continue to accept patches and updates as long as they have enough ram and cpu oomph to handle it. I don't expect any less from the "pc" I use the most. Come on, Dell, lets get the high-quality customer focus machine cranked up again. You charged absolutely top-dollar for the last update; stop trying to milk or abandon your base.

[AZMark]

Fact: This is 100% about support. HP, Dell, Toshiba etc. sell their hardware in one software configuration. It doesn't work, get your restore CD, reformat, restore, ticket closed. You want to put Windows 2007 on a 5 year old Dell PC, you can do it, but Dell will not talk to you about it.

Along comes PocketPC, and MS tells the hardware mfgrs. that MS is not selling or supporting this OS, all support falls to the mfgrs. This is not a profit center at all! The solutions? Maybe MS could start selling a generic OS, with little to no support offered. (or if Dell just offered it for free but as a beta like upgrade, try at your own risk) It may work on some of the least customized devices like the X5. Or, just stop making the devices upgradeable, but then the hardware mfgrs would have to get it right the first time.

[Jacob]

PPC2003SE is really no different other then someone decided that since it was a PDA its not worth the time and effort. Its changing a person's mindset that a PDA shouldn't be upgradable is the problem here.

You definitely have a point and although there is a somewhat of a difference between PCs and PDAs, they are upgradable.

I simply think that there are reasons that none of us know why they are deciding not to - I doubt they would do this if they didn't at least think that it would save them or make them money despite the flak they get.

The difference between this and drivers is that they likely get the updated drivers from the OEMs of the hardware and probably don't have to pay as much as they might with the upgraded OS from Microsoft.

I do agree that unless there is truly a hardware problem, they should be then releasing the OS as a paid upgrade if they are afraid of not making up their costs.