End of Juni's skinning site [Archive]

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Stephen Beesley

03-09-2004, 05:34 PM

For any of you who like me have appreciated the time and effort put in by Juni on some absolutely wonderful skins for Wisbar Advance, Dashboard and other peices of software - be sad, be very sad :cry: (and maybe more than a little angry). If you surf on over to his site here (http://koti.welho.com/kruohio/skinz.html) you will see that he has decided to shut up shop after what looks like some pretty unconsionable conduct toward him.

Although the link has gone from his frontpage you can still access some of the discussion on this from his comments section from here (http://www.antibs.com/gbook/view/13223/96) on.

Juni - if you are reading this then know that your work will definately be missed.

Jacob

03-09-2004, 05:46 PM

That's a real shame.

I have used and am still using some of his skins and whether I like the skin itself, I respect the work that goes into it(knowing that I couldn't do better ;) ).

I'm glad to see he'll keep creating skins, but sad to see him have to close down his site.

Zack Mahdavi

03-09-2004, 07:14 PM

Juni, I'm sorry that some people's utter selfishness have driven you to close down your site. I've had similar experiences myself. I used to host a free "web disk" with unlimited storage for people, but after telling people they can't store illegal (movies, music, etc) content, I received so many hate emails, that I closed the entire site down. It can be very frustrating.

Anyway, I've been using your cTunes Pocket Player skin, and I absolutely love it. Thanks for your time and devotion to the commmunity!

Zensbikeshop

03-09-2004, 10:04 PM

I hate things like this.

I'm about to ditch my Palm T3 and head back to a PPC and one of the things I'm looking forward to is making the UI (well bits) gorgeous courteousy of the talented Juni.

I've tried making skins and it makes me appreciate what an artist Juni is.

I'll be straight to Wincustomize as soon as I get my PPC.

pocketdoc

03-09-2004, 10:55 PM

I am another Juni supporter, and hope he will continue to skin.

I use Dashboard (have for years) and WA, and use his skins almost exclusively, and will continue to do so.

Keep up the great work, Juni!

(Boycott the other guys!)

The Half-Ling

03-09-2004, 11:00 PM

dmy

03-10-2004, 12:08 AM

Another person here ringing in on his disgust with the reasons behind Juni making his decision, however I'm happy that Juni will continue making his many designs available through another site and I sincerely hope he doesn't cease making new ones.

Cheers,
D.

sracer

03-10-2004, 01:05 AM

this is so discusting...I love Juni and everything he does...I always look foward to his bi-weekly skin updates!

PPX is discusting for what they have done...they need to be shut down permenatly and I've got half a mind to do it myself...They stole his skins without his permission...how annoying...PPC's are one of the places you'd hope their could be some honest and respect and before PPX did this, there was...I HATE PPX and THEIR ADMINISTRATOR for what they have done...go away you scum, your not wanted here...leave PPC's and its community before you cause any more damage...

I purpose a full boycott on their products. they have no place in this community and they need to be driven out...Im so sorry Juni its horrible what happened....

Angered beyond belif...
Jake-

I suggest that you look into the matter before going off on a tirade.

PPX3k (the official site for PPX support) is not involved with this issue. There is a site called ppxskins.com that is a repository for user submissions. Somebody posted PPX Uis that look strikingly like Juni's skins but are obviously different.

Juni demanded that the admins of ppxskins take down certain UIs, but he offered no reason other than "they look like mine". He said that the person "uglified" them, but you can immediately see that the graphic elements aren't even the same size, dimensions, or ratio. Take a look at "Lonnie's" "LanchPad" in particular and compare it to Juni's Launch Pad.

If you have an issue with ppxskins continuing to host those UIs, then that is one issue. To take it out on the developer of PPX is a bit unfair... and misguided.
I too am a big fan of Juni's work. So much so that he inspired me to create a PPX UI that is reminiscent of one of his... here's mine:
http://www.handango.com/pictures/685748/smooth-ani-1.gif

His skins will still be available from Wincustomize so that's a good thing.

PPCMD

03-10-2004, 02:35 AM

Thats too bad since I was looking forward for Wisbar Phone Edition and Juni's skins are awesome. I will check out the new site and look for his skins there.

Badandy

03-10-2004, 04:06 AM

No offense sracer, but LanchPad and Launchpad are too close to be a coincidance. Not only does that skin look like a ripoff of Juni's, the name gives it away.

yuit

03-10-2004, 04:16 AM

PPX3k (the official site for PPX support) is not involved with this issue. There is a site called ppxskins.com that is a repository for user submissions.

well you could have fooled me. the main ppx3k site links back to the ppxskins site. ppxskins seems to get a cut of the ppx sales it generates, so I would say the two have a pretty strong relationship. Since the relationship continues, the only logical conclusion to draw is that ppx3k endorses the actions of ppxskins....

Somebody posted PPX Uis that look strikingly like Juni's skins but are obviously different.

yes, and its called a rip. Even if its a user submitted site, the moderators have a responsibility to enforce copyrights. I also don't see how you can claim that this http://www.ppxskins.com/gallery/data/thumbnails/57/ComtrolPad2.gif is not a rip of this: http://koti.welho.com/kruohio/controlpadii.png

Juni demanded that the admins of ppxskins take down certain UIs, but he offered no reason other than "they look like mine". Its called copyright, and having respect for the wishes of the original creator of the skin.

To take it out on the developer of PPX is a bit unfair... and misguided.

well, it seems that the ppx team has a long history of stirring up controversy :roll:

The Half-Ling

03-10-2004, 04:29 AM

Steven Cedrone

03-10-2004, 04:36 AM

Let's discuss this rationally please...

On a personal note, I hate to see Juni shut down his site!

Steve

sracer

03-10-2004, 05:18 AM

It is the PPX Administrator's responsibility to respect Juni, if he cannot do so...the hell with him and his software...I don't want him around PocketPC's if he is going to ruin it for the rest of us. Also, 'Lonnie's' original skinning name was not lonnie, but freakin' LUNI...c'mon there is no co-oncidence here...This so called Luni, PPXSkins and PPX3k are all at fault here...They have no place in PocketPC's :evil:

Jake-

Again... you are blaming PPX3k for what goes on at ppxskins. The "PPX Administrator" has nothing to do with ppxskins (as far as I know). You are condemning a product and a developer because of the actions of one independent person (Luni/Lonnie).

I agree that Lonnie did it to cause trouble. Rather than shooting at an easy but incorrect target (PPX developer), if you feel so strongly, you should go after the ppxskins admin or better yet, Luni/Lonnie himself.

I can't help but think that Lonnie's motivation was to stir up anti-PPX sentiment. He/she is playing on the fact that most people are too lazy to dig into the situation a little deeper and ferret out his/her identity.

sracer

03-10-2004, 05:48 AM

well you could have fooled me. the main ppx3k site links back to the ppxskins site. ppxskins seems to get a cut of the ppx sales it generates, so I would say the two have a pretty strong relationship. Since the relationship continues, the only logical conclusion to draw is that ppx3k endorses the actions of ppxskins....
Anyone can become a PPX affiliate. There's no "special relationship" required.

yes, and its called a rip. Even if its a user submitted site, the moderators have a responsibility to enforce copyrights. I also don't see how you can claim that this
It is obviously a "knock-off"... but to say it is a "rip" is inaccurate.
Firstly, there are visible differences that easily differentiate the two. A "rip" would be identical... as in "ripping" a DVD results in the exact contents of the DVD are copied to the harddrive (for further modification/encoding).

Secondly... those icon images in the amber area are simply taken from the Wingdings font that is standard with every version of Windows.
Are you saying that no one can ever use the Wingding font because Juni used it in one of his skins?

The "silver tubes" are different.

Again, the two look very similar, but it is easy to see that they are different. If you are saying that a person cannot create a skin that resembles another, then a majority of the PPX and dashboard skins are violating that position.

The big question then becomes... How different does something have to be before it isn't "infringing" on someone else's work?

Its called copyright, and having respect for the wishes of the original creator of the skin.
I suggest you look into copyright law a little closer before playing that card. I won't debate the technical issues of the law because no one but a copyright lawyer is qualified to discuss it.

well, it seems that the ppx team has a long history of stirring up controversy :roll:

Seems like people are looking for ways to link the actions of an individual person to a product. If you have a beef with the PPX developer that's fine but let's not tangle THAT up with this issue.

I think that it is important to stay focused on the issues and not let personal issues or emotions cloud them. I'm not saying that Juni is being unreasonable. And please don't interpret my pointing out differences between the two images as an endorsement for what Lonnie is doing. (or has done)

Honestly, I don't know if it is infringing or not. Where do you draw the line?

juni

03-10-2004, 08:13 AM

I'm not going discuss the issue - I am sick and tired of it - it has given me headaches and a great deal of hassle and hate-emails and namecalling from certain "parties". I said what I had to say and that's that.

The last email I got from the administrator says:

"I still say you are 100% responsible for what is on your site. You are a
skin site moderator - act like one. Show some integrity, ethics and
honor instead of being abusive."

Why should I care what you say? It is my site, and I could care less what
you say.

As far as the developer having nothing to do with the ppx skin site: He was the one who removed the first batch of copied skins, how can he do it if he isn't a moderator at the site or in any way affiliated with it?

But of course I'm not going to stop skinning Dashboard, Wisbar Advance or any other program I like using, I am just going to upload to
http://www.wincustomize.com instead.

Steven Cedrone

03-10-2004, 01:41 PM

I think this whole mess could have been avoided easily: all this Luni/Lonnie had to do is email Juni and ask to modify his original skin. I've seen plenty of skins out there with a note about "original Juni skin modified with permission" attached. So Juni was not the type of skinner to say no to a simple request! The skinner Luni/Lonnie, IMHO, should not be allowed to post skins and they should be removed if already posted. We rely on skinners to make our purchased products look and function better than they do "out of the box", we don't need this type of behavior in, what amounts to, a very small community...

My only other question: this can't be good publicity for PPX (regardless of the fact that they have no control over the skin site), I'm suprised that they haven't tried to put pressure on the site to clear up this matter, or maybe they have and we haven't heard about it?

Just my .02

Steve

sracer

03-10-2004, 02:45 PM

Nothing more for me to add except, "I agree, Steven".

JustinGTP

03-12-2004, 01:04 AM

sracer,

Are you a part of PPXskins or something? You seem to be defending them like I don't know what!

Fishie

03-12-2004, 06:57 AM

I have never used PPX nor any of Juni´s skins or whatever so im an outsider to both parties here.

I do feel like playing devils advocate tough.

Hands up how many of you felt ill towards Apple for forcing the Ipod like mediaplayer for PPC to change its appearance?

No difference here.

Zensbikeshop

03-12-2004, 10:59 AM

It's not a question of copyright it's a question of intellectual property.

The example shown above is a clear violation of Juni's IP.

sracer

03-12-2004, 03:12 PM

sracer,

Are you a part of PPXskins or something? You seem to be defending them like I don't know what!

I have no affiliation with PPXskins. I uploaded a few of my UIs to ppxskins, but that's the only connection I have.

I am one of the moderators of the PPX support forums, though not very active there. I have an affiliate sales link on my website and if anyone purchases PPX using that link, I get a commission. That's the only "connection" I have with PPX.

I mostly create PPX UIs and post them at Handango or host them on my own site. Along with helping others out, like creating my DVD to WMV encoding guide.

I am not defending ppxskins. I am trying to separate what the issues are and who is responsible. The big problems that I see is that emotions are clouding the issues, broad and inaccurate accusations are made which do nothing but feed more emotional responses.

ACCUSATION: ppxskins stole my skins. FALSE. The UIs on ppxskins are submitted by users. If any skins are stolen, it would be the user who submitted them that did the "stealing" not ppxskins.

ACCUSATION: If you skin for PPX you have a greater chance of having your designs stolen. FALSE. This is just outright false, alarmist, and belies the true motivation for the accusation. First off, there are nearly 200 UIs (skins) for PPX. There are only 2 or 3 that are in question. That's just a bit over 1%. The skin designs in question didn't ORIGINATE as a PPX skin, just the opposite!

There are only 2 PPX UIs that have been "stolen" as far as I know... and they were both mine. My WinXPSE and LonghornSE PPX skins were taken by someone, without my permission, and offered up as their own creations. When a skin is ripped, it is basically just the graphic elements that are used (not to diminish the importance and work that goes into graphic arts)... when a PPX UI is ripped, not only are the graphics taken, but the whole underlying logic too! That is, the manner in which menus pop-up, folders appear, etc. I dare say that a lot more work goes into the overall creation of an advanced PPX UI than a skin for an app. I know exactly how Juni feels!

ISSUE: An individual took graphic elements from one of Juni's skins and reused them without permission. This person was dead wrong... no doubt about it.

ISSUE: This same individual used a mocking name to post these skins.. This person was dead wrong...no doubt about it.

ISSUE: PPXskins didn't remove the UIs that Juni requested to be removed. The UIs that were direct rips of Juni's skins should've been removed, no question about that. For those with the same "design", that is a grey area. Personally, I would've removed them. The negative attention it has brought isn't worth it for the 2 or 3 UIs in question.

ISSUE: This same individual used the design of Juni's skins to create his own rendition, using his own graphics, for a different application. This is a much more grey area. Some say that it is Juni's design and people need his permission if they want to use it. They believe that if anyone wants to create a skin with a silver tube at the bottom of the screen or a hanging metalic menu, then they must get permission from Juni. I don't agree with that.

---------------------
BOTTOM LINE (IMO):

There's a troublemaker in our midst. Nothing positive has come out of this situation. I hope that people of good will focus their attention on the individual responsible and not take it out on an outstanding and useful product like PPX.

pocketdoc

03-12-2004, 07:11 PM

Sracer: your comments seem very fair.

Who owns and operates PPX? What about PPX Skins? Have they talked to Juni?

Sracer appears to be the most vocal, but is not directly responsible for PPX.

This should end and we all should move on.

mrkablooey

03-18-2004, 02:28 AM

I'm going to keep an eye out for Juni's stuff on wincustomize. It's way better than any PPX stuff.

03-18-2004, 05:18 AM

Hey Tom, I don't think anyone will ever accuse you of stealing that log cabin design.
It's not something that appeals to me personally, but it's really creative. If I had more time I'd get PPX and see what I could do. Hmmm..... maybe this weekend....... :D

omikron.sk

03-20-2004, 03:42 PM

I've been really sorry for seeing that Juni's site has been closed, but I understand that.

Link to Juni's work just in case you are like me :roll: and cannot find them.

http://www.wincustomize.com/skins.asp?authorid=229

sublime

03-20-2004, 10:43 PM

I just installed wisbar advance today. I looked on that wincustomize site and can't find any of these skins for it. Where can I find some good ones?

Jacob

03-20-2004, 11:24 PM

Juni puts most of his Wisbar advanced skins together with his dashboard skins - you can get them that way.

LightMan

03-31-2004, 03:55 PM

I just installed wisbar advance today. I looked on that wincustomize site and can't find any of these skins for it. Where can I find some good ones?

You may want to take a look at my Wisbar Advance skins site (http://www.lightman.pdahit.com) as well. For what I've been told, some of my skins have also been ripped for PPX, although I haven't ran into them yet.

Sometime ago, shortly after PPX was released, I was contacted by someone from the developping team (Billy, I think was his name) asking if I would like to make some skins for PPX or port some of my own WA skins. Since I tried PPX and it didn't hook me, I declined the invitation in a sympathethic way.
Since Juni is, in my opinion, the best skinner of the ppc scene and his skins are praised all over, I'm almost 100% sure this invitation was also made to Juni.
Anyway, curiously enough, a couple of days after this contact I referred, I saw the first ripped skins of Juni up on ppxskins.com. Coincidence? Personally, I think not, but anyone is free to draw his own conclusions.

Basically, my only gripe with the people behind PPX is that after all the talk that has been going on about this, and assuming they are not the rippers themselves, they should (in my humble opinion) condone such behaviours and enforce any measures necessary to remove the ripped skins from their site and/or affiliates.

Stephen Beesley

03-31-2004, 04:19 PM

LightMan

03-31-2004, 04:34 PM

Hey there Lighty - it was sad to see Juni have to close his site (although it is good that he is still making his stuff available), but I am glad to see that your site is still up and running. In fact I have your "attraction Theme and WA skin looking at me from my Jornada as I type :D

:) Hey :)
yes, I admit there was a time I thought about going the same way, but then decided it was kinda pointless for me to do that.
I started skinning because I wanted to be able to make the screen of my PPC look exactly the way I wanted. I share my skins because I became aware that there are people out there that also enjoyed using them.
Since this cheap ripping is something that is always bound to happen on such a crazy world like the internet, I decided that, although it hurts a bit to see our work used without permission, I won't let that take the fun out of sharing my work with the people that appreciate it and use it on their PPCs. :)

Steven Cedrone

03-31-2004, 05:27 PM

Decision reversed? (http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/skinz.html)

Steve

Iain51

03-31-2004, 10:43 PM

Decision reversed? (http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/skinz.html)

Steve
Hope so! :D

Zack Mahdavi

04-01-2004, 12:24 AM

Decision reversed? (http://www.kolumbus.fi/anders.ruohio/skinz.html)

Steve
Hope so! :D

Me too!

Pixelnose

04-04-2004, 10:24 PM

Juni's been really busy for past few weeks, but the decision was reversed since the offending site _finally_ removed the skins. So he's trying this again, this time with an agreement that he had assumed previously was just common sense. Hopefully it won't offend anybody. :)

The website moved since we had to switch isp's for his telecomuting needs. He hasn't even had to telecommute yet but still they made him switch. Well at least it's free. :)

juni

04-05-2004, 06:21 AM

Yup, we'll see how it goes. :)

Stephen Beesley

04-05-2004, 08:25 AM

Yup, we'll see how it goes. :)

Juni, just checked out your new site - very slick. Glad to see it back and I hope things go better this time round.

juni

04-05-2004, 09:26 AM

Thank you :). I have a slight problem with it though: It looks fine in PocketIE with "fit to screen" checked and standard view, but when I use PiePlus in its normal mode PiePlus apparently splits the tables up (although it wouldn't have to - the tables fit fine without splitting) and makes it display a bit weird. Maybe I should contact reensoft?

Pixelnose

04-06-2004, 12:16 AM

And any Mac users here using Safari, there's a slight snafu that Juni discovered before bedtime. If you put your mouse over the link to either a screenshot or a download, you'll see a backslash instead of a forward slash. That Mac doesn't like that too much, so manually typing the address with a forward slash works. Just an FYI. :)

PPCMD

04-06-2004, 02:46 AM

Juni, I am glad to see your site is back up. I unfortunately found WA and your site just as you shut it down. I look forward to WA Phone Edition and more skins from you in the future.

juni

04-06-2004, 07:09 AM

Janak Parekh

04-09-2004, 03:52 AM

I fixed that problem. Didn't know Macs don't understand the \ sign :wink:
Actually, "\" is a bug in URLs -- it's considered invalid syntax, and only IE on Windows supports it. ;)

--janak

Pixelnose

04-11-2004, 02:35 AM

Uh-huh! I knew it! And he wouldn't believe his wife. ;)

:devilboy: