Dig Into Palm OS 6

[Ed Hansberry]

http://www.palmos.com/dev/dl/dl_tools/dl_simulator/index.html

If you are willing to register as a developer, you can download the Palm OS 6 emulator. One of the comments I've heard is OS 6 still doesn't have true multitasking. On a Pocket PC, you can open a contact, start filling in the form, then switch to another app and switch back to the contact form to continue entry. This is especially useful if that other app contains the contact info you are getting, like an email.

According to this PalmInfoCenter comment (http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20623) from hotpaw4, who was at the Palm Dev Conference, clarifies this. Unless the app is specifically written to save the app state, it won't allow you to switch back and forth.

I'm sorry guys, but that isn't multitasking. Say what you want about the Pocket PC, I can take a 5 year old ARM application that was written for the Jornada 820 and ignoring the messed up UI that was designed for a 640X480 HPC Pro screen, it will still work (assuming it isn't looking for specific HPC APIs) on a modern Pocket PC and multitask just fine. I've done it on a 2002 device with the old HPC Terminal Server client before Microsoft released a downloadable client for the 2002 upgraded devices. This whole deal of a background thread that will allow email to still download but you have to relaunch the email UI (thus closing whatever you are in now) is going to be... sigh. I give up. Palm has been on this road that they have the ultimate paradigm and for some reason, they are incapable of either admitting that multitasking in today's connected society is a necessity or incapable of developing a true multitasking OS without starting from ground zero and discarding their old application base. Before anyone jumps on me for ranting, look at the market share numbers. Pocket PC and Windows Mobile is a much larger share of the market today than they were then the iPAQ 3600 was originally released in 2000. That means someone else is losing share.

It has also been reported that OS 6 still doesn't allow you to assign more than one category to a record :roll:, and those of you with a Tungsten T3 may be a bit disappointed with the PIM apps. They are more advanced than OS5 but not quite as advanced as the T3 customizations PalmOne did.

I've also seen comments about the very slow startup of the OS. Be realistic though. You should never to performance tests on an emulator. I've got to believe that OS6 devices will be at least as fast as OS5 devices.

Anyway, I thought some of you would be very interested in playing with this.

Oh yeah. Dave Beauvais sent me this link advertising a PDA (http://compusa.dailyshopper.com/index.aspx?pagename=circularlarge&pagenumber=2&circularid=3222), which will probably be gone in a few days. Notice that device in the lower right corner? It has a picture on the screen. That must be what the Zire wants to be when it grows up. An iPAQ. :lol:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20040301-zire2ipaq.jpg

[Mitch D]

Now if that isn't a advertising fubar I have no idea what one is. Maybe that could be Palmone's new ad slogan... "What we want to be when we grow up..."

Hey what can I say, it an :idea:

[fletch]

Holy cra*p! no multitasking still?

this means that Palm devices are literally being 'out-featured' by cellphones. What a waste.

They must be having a total brain freeze over there.

[Ben Stark]

Sad indeed. MS is coming out with dynamic landscape soon as well. The gap is widening ever faster. WTF is Palm thinking. :roll:

[johncruise]

Notice that device in the lower right corner? It has a picture on the screen. That must be what the Zire wants to be when it grows up. An iPAQ. :lol:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20040301-zire2ipaq.jpg

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha
Hahahahahahahahaha

Uhurmm... Ehem....

hahahahahahahahahahaha
hahahahahahaha

(10 seconds of silence)

Hahahahahahaha
hahahahaha

Man... those guys who makes this kinds of advertisement posters really cracks me up! Maybe it's really a video that shows what the device can't do on a PalmOS. Or a CompUSA propaganda to tease this new owners to go back to their store and buy a Pocket PC device ;-) ;-)

Hahahahahaha

[entropy1980]

Here's a real good interview and insight about everything that went into OS 6 should explain and clear up a lot....

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

[ombu]

No multitasking, no multiple categories for an item, yep, Palm OS 6 is a killer :twisted: .

BTW, beyond a lot of wishes we all have for WM2004 or WM2003 SP1 I would like to add one, 'AND' filtering categories, that'd be powerful.

Regards.

[dean_shan]

Wow how can one still buy a Palm when there is no multi-tasking. How come a brand-new 2004 palm device cannot do what a 1994 newton could do?

[yslee]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

[Mitch D]

Sad indeed. MS is coming out with dynamic landscape soon as well. The gap is widening ever faster. WTF is Palm thinking. :roll:

I can't help but wonder if this lack of true multitasking is a sign of the real limitation of the Palm OS. They have come out with some really good units like the T3, the Tungsten C as well as the Sony's UX50, but the OS does nothing to improve the operation of these devices. I would have thought with thier takeover of BEOS a few years back that they would have come out with a real rocking OS by now.

BEos was one of the first "Open Source" operating systems that I tried and liked. It was user friendly, easy to use and really didn't take up alot of space on a hard drive. Heck I have BEOS loaded on my old Compaq laptop and it's fun to play around with when I am annoyed with Windows.

Well this lack of innovation by Palm is what made me come over from the "dark" side.

[Christian]

That picture isn't nearly as entertaining as last week's local CompUSA ad which featured a "photo" of a Zire 71 running the Pocket PC today screen. They even distorted the picture to fit the Zire's aspect ratio. :lol: :roll:

[Mitch D]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

I wouldn't call it bashing, I have friends that still use Palm's and are very happy with them. They take more than a few shots at me for owning a WM2003 device, but even they know that the Palm OS has it's short comings, but then again the same can be said about PPC/WM.

[Ed Hansberry]

I wouldn't call it bashing, I have friends that still use Palm's and are very happy with them. They take more than a few shots at me for owning a WM2003 device, but even they know that the Palm OS has it's short comings, but then again the same can be said about PPC/WM.
Bingo! This whole thing of Palm dancing around but never quite getting into multitasking is almost as bad as listening to Microsoft explain why we don't need a close button. :roll:

[Icebaron]

BEos was one of the first "Open Source" operating systems that I tried and liked. It was user friendly, easy to use and really didn't take up alot of space on a hard drive.

BeOS was a lot of things, but open source was not one of them. It was free as in Free Beer, but not free as in Free Speech. BeOS was very much a proprietary, closed-source operating system.

That being said, BeOS was WAY before its time. It supported mutiple processors when NT MP support was an inefficient hack. At the time BeOS came out, Linux didn't even have MP support yet. BeOS was amazingly efficient and powerful. I remember watching BeOS rendering multiple video files on the surfaces of a cube that was rotating real-time in 3-d. On a pentium 60. With 32 megs of RAM. I'd love to see the windows releases at the time handle that. And the BeBoxes... those things were geek chic to the max. BeBoxen had dual processors, at a time when dual processors were practically unheard-of to the home user The best part, though, was the fact that there were dual processor load LED bars on the front of the case. One for each processor. It kicked major arse.

[fletch]

OK, to clarify, after reading that article it seems that it does have full support for multitasking, but FOR SOME BIZZARE REASON, they chose not integrate this into the platform interface. This means although developers can spawn threads and do tricky stuff in their apps, users still cant run multiple apps truely concurrently.

As I said before *TOTAL BRAIN FREEZE*

respect lost etc etc

[huangzhinong]

Move on, move on, guys, I have told you half years ago that OS6 only implement multiple threading, not multiple tasking, why do you guys bother so busy PalmSource Development meeting to confirm my old news? :D :D

Anyway, you may understand better now why PalmOne want to licence other platform, including PPC now. Check this one out.

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/4532.html

:D

[Mitch D]

BeOS was a lot of things, but open source was not one of them. It was free as in Free Beer, but not free as in Free Speech. BeOS was very much a proprietary, closed-source operating system.


You are correct Icebaron, I just used the term "open source" for a lack of a better definition.

[pdaisdead]

More FUD from Hansberry....Hey Ed, I can't believe it took you this long being that OS 6.0 was announced a while back now. The marketing department at MS won't be pleased with you this time around.

As for the requirement (assuming some random poster is correct) that the application needs to be written with multi-tasking in mind...so what??? It would seem the Palm development community has been able to adapt to most requirements thrown in front of it (Sony's and PalmOne's requirements for various flavors of High-res and VG). There were those like you that said the the migration to OS 5.0 and the use of ARMlets was going to be a total mess (needless to say it came off without a hitch).

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll: Oh my, either OS 6.0 sounds pretty rock solid, or you really are slipping. Quick someone call Microsoft and report Private Hansberry for reprimand! :lol:

[Jeff Rutledge]

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll:

By saying "supposed inability" do you mean that it can assign multiple categories? Because if not, I'd call that a huge missing feature. I was given a Palm m515 when they were still the top Palm out there and I gave it back in a day. As soon as I saw the 15 category limitation and the fact that I couldn't assign multiple categories, it was back in the box.

[guinness]

Here's a real good interview and insight about everything that went into OS 6 should explain and clear up a lot....

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

What stuck out the most with me from those comments to that article, was not that users were upset over the lack of mutitasking, but that some were questioning the need for a real file system in POS 6.0, which it still lacks. That boggled my mind, I'm really reconsidering a POS device as my next upgrade since that's the case. Not only that, but 6.0 still can't understand native file types like a .jpg, .mp3, etc. without converting them to the standard Palm DB when in the internal memory. For all the hype, the emu still looks and largely acts like POS 5.0 (I do like the taskbar at the bottom though).

[pdaisdead]

Here's a real good interview and insight about everything that went into OS 6 should explain and clear up a lot....

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

Not only that, but 6.0 still can't understand native file types like a .jpg, .mp3, etc. without converting them to the standard Palm DB when in the internal memory. For all the hype, the emu still looks and largely acts like POS 5.0 (I do like the taskbar at the bottom though).

You're wrong. It reads those formats just fine.

[pdaisdead]

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll:

By saying "supposed inability" do you mean that it can assign multiple categories? Because if not, I'd call that a huge missing feature. I was given a Palm m515 when they were still the top Palm out there and I gave it back in a day. As soon as I saw the 15 category limitation and the fact that I couldn't assign multiple categories, it was back in the box.

Again, I say supposed as this is coming from a poster to website (not official word from Palm Source). It wouldn't necessarily surprise me if this were true but, if it is, who gives a rat's fat arse!? That's it's big shortcoming? Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC. There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

[huangzhinong]

Here's a real good interview and insight about everything that went into OS 6 should explain and clear up a lot....

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

Not only that, but 6.0 still can't understand native file types like a .jpg, .mp3, etc. without converting them to the standard Palm DB when in the internal memory. For all the hype, the emu still looks and largely acts like POS 5.0 (I do like the taskbar at the bottom though).

You're wrong. It reads those formats just fine.

He didn't say POS can't read these formats from storage card. I don't know how to copy a jpg file into my treo90 without losing my filename yet.

[huangzhinong]

Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC. There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

Well, nobody talk about stablity of POS 6 here. I think it's as stable as POS 5 since it's only a enhanced OS 5. But your comments about PPC is same biased as Ed's.

[Jeff Rutledge]

Again, I say supposed as this is coming from a poster to website (not official word from Palm Source). It wouldn't necessarily surprise me if this were true but, if it is, who gives a rat's fat arse!? That's it's big shortcoming?
That's my point. Yes, it's a big shortcoming. If I had purchased a Palm device, taken it out of the box and seen this issue, I would have had a refund in my hand the same day.
Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC.
I reset my iPAQ once a day because I back it up.
There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

For now... :mrgreen:

Seriously though, before I get dragged into a Ford vs. Chevy or Sammy Hagar vs. David Lee Roth debate, I do see a lot of good things that I like about Palm devices. They're not for me, but I can see why they appeal to some.

[Partita]

OS 6.0.
-Old OS .50 running on PACE emu layer can't multitask. (there goes 100% of current apps)

-New OS6.0 compliant apps have to be specifically designed to run on background thread to run 'multitask' otherwise it will be killed.

-There won't be little 'X' to kill apps. If it is running on the background, god knows how user suppose to kill it. (supposedly background apps are smart enough to terminate itself when finish their task. hah hah hah.....*cough cough*.....haven't we heard that before)

-So another way to do it is via 'slip', which is a special windows. (No, there is no 'title bar' ala wisbar since the top and bottom taskbar cannot carry more icon than OEM puts)

The OS 6.0 only has 16 processes, while CE has 32. (there goes XDAII problem...

[Jonathan1]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

yslee, if there wasn't legit cause for bashing you wouldn't see it. Fact of the matter is OS6 was suppose to bring Palm OS up to par with the Pocket PC and at the end of the day it starting to look like it will fall drastically short.

I'm still clinging to my aging Jornada 568. I promised myself that I wouldn't make a decision on a new PDA until more details of Pocket PC 2004 and Palm OS 6 were released and as of this writing I'm sad to say that unless Ed and company are drastically wrong, I see no good reason to use Palm. Not when they can't even provide backwards compatibility for multitasking. Let me stress this, I WILL NOT shell out cash on an OS simply because it isn't Microsoft which seems to be the only reason a lot of people are clinging to Palm. Shades of Apple users? I think once again Palm may very well have dropped the ball on their OS. But lets face it guys. This is Palm we are talking about. Its taken then a decade to get some of the features that any modern OS should have in it. Dare I suggest that if it wasn't for the Pocket PC, Palm users who are enamored with their color, high resolution screens would instead be holding a monochrome device with 160 x 160 resolution. Didn’t the CEO of the week at Palm back at CES in 2000 hold up a Palm at a panel and announce that PDA users don’t care about color or sound. That status quo philosophy would still be there to this date if it wasn’t for the Pocket PC.
The Pocket PC has had to drag Palm kicking, screaming, and screeching into the world of color, expansion, high resolution. And yet they still are bucking with their POS. (You can determine for yourself if that reads Pile Of S*** or Palm OS.) Lacking features that any up to date OS should have. At this point I give Palm one more iteration of Palm OS before the end really starts closing in but at this point the hand is poised over the wall ready to write. Unless Palm gets their collective ***es together, IMHO, I think they are done. The only question will be who will pick up Palm at that point. I still think it will either be Apple or Sony.

[Mitch D]

More FUD from Hansberry....Hey Ed, I can't believe it took you this long being that OS 6.0 was announced a while back now. The marketing department at MS won't be pleased with you this time around.

As for the requirement (assuming some random poster is correct) that the application needs to be written with multi-tasking in mind...so what??? It would seem the Palm development community has been able to adapt to most requirements thrown in front of it (Sony's and PalmOne's requirements for various flavors of High-res and VG). There were those like you that said the the migration to OS 5.0 and the use of ARMlets was going to be a total mess (needless to say it came off without a hitch).

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll: Oh my, either OS 6.0 sounds pretty rock solid, or you really are slipping. Quick someone call Microsoft and report Private Hansberry for reprimand! :lol:

pdaisdead, is there a particular reason why you feel a need to attack Ed for making an observation? One thing about this forum is we all agree at some point to disagree. What one person feels is important in an app does not mean another will feel the same way. That's part of life...

We are comparing a gas engine to a electric engine here, yes they both do the same thing but they do it differently. Enviromental concerns aside, it doesn't make one or the other better, getting peeved about it and launching off doesn't help the "bad blood" that does exist between the two communities.

:soapbox:

Sorry if I stepped out of bounds by speaking up but it gets really annoying when we can't even debate something without someone getting royally peeved...

[juni]

...just a thought. I wonder if anyone ported Linux to palm devices (like Opie). Then palm users could have multitasking...a proper filesystem, nifty konqueror browser etc. (since the new Palm devices actually have more power now than the earlier ones).

[Fishie]

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll:

By saying "supposed inability" do you mean that it can assign multiple categories? Because if not, I'd call that a huge missing feature. I was given a Palm m515 when they were still the top Palm out there and I gave it back in a day. As soon as I saw the 15 category limitation and the fact that I couldn't assign multiple categories, it was back in the box.

Again, I say supposed as this is coming from a poster to website (not official word from Palm Source). It wouldn't necessarily surprise me if this were true but, if it is, who gives a rat's fat arse!? That's it's big shortcoming? Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC. There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

My Toshiba e800 and ipaq 2215 have never locked up on me, meanwhile my TungstenE and my Clie´s in the past used to do it several times a week, sometimes even messing up my computer while syncing etcetera.

[BevHoward]

actually. the ad is claiming that if you buy a Zire, you then get to hang out with women who use Ipaqs and can take their pictures ;-)

Bev Howard

[pdaisdead]

Here's a real good interview and insight about everything that went into OS 6 should explain and clear up a lot....

http://www.osnews.com/story.php?news_id=6148

Not only that, but 6.0 still can't understand native file types like a .jpg, .mp3, etc. without converting them to the standard Palm DB when in the internal memory. For all the hype, the emu still looks and largely acts like POS 5.0 (I do like the taskbar at the bottom though).

You're wrong. It reads those formats just fine.

He didn't say POS can't read these formats from storage card. I don't know how to copy a jpg file into my treo90 without losing my filename yet.

Your Treo 90 runs OS 6.0?? Cool. :roll:

[pdaisdead]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

yslee, if there wasn't legit cause for bashing you wouldn't see it. Fact of the matter is OS6 was suppose to bring Palm OS up to par with the Pocket PC and at the end of the day it starting to look like it will fall drastically short.

Ummm....OS 5.0 is ahead of PPC in mine and the majority's opinion. Otherwise, why would more of us purchase it than PPC?

[pdaisdead]

There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

For now... :mrgreen:



Yes, there's always next year. You wouldn't happen to be a Cubs fun would you??? :twisted:

That argument is getting tired....it's over three years on and Microsoft still hasn't beaten little old Palm.

[pdaisdead]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

yslee, if there wasn't legit cause for bashing you wouldn't see it. Fact of the matter is OS6 was suppose to bring Palm OS up to par with the Pocket PC and at the end of the day it starting to look like it will fall drastically short.

I'm still clinging to my aging Jornada 568. I promised myself that I wouldn't make a decision on a new PDA until more details of Pocket PC 2004 and Palm OS 6 were released and as of this writing I'm sad to say that unless Ed and company are drastically wrong, I see no good reason to use Palm. Not when they can't even provide backwards compatibility for multitasking. Let me stress this, I WILL NOT shell out cash on an OS simply because it isn't Microsoft which seems to be the only reason a lot of people are clinging to Palm. Shades of Apple users? I think once again Palm may very well have dropped the ball on their OS. But lets face it guys. This is Palm we are talking about. Its taken then a decade to get some of the features that any modern OS should have in it. Dare I suggest that if it wasn't for the Pocket PC, Palm users who are enamored with their color, high resolution screens would instead be holding a monochrome device with 160 x 160 resolution. Didn’t the CEO of the week at Palm back at CES in 2000 hold up a Palm at a panel and announce that PDA users don’t care about color or sound. That status quo philosophy would still be there to this date if it wasn’t for the Pocket PC.
The Pocket PC has had to drag Palm kicking, screaming, and screeching into the world of color, expansion, high resolution. And yet they still are bucking with their POS. (You can determine for yourself if that reads Pile Of S*** or Palm OS.) Lacking features that any up to date OS should have. At this point I give Palm one more iteration of Palm OS before the end really starts closing in but at this point the hand is poised over the wall ready to write. Unless Palm gets their collective ***es together, IMHO, I think they are done. The only question will be who will pick up Palm at that point. I still think it will either be Apple or Sony.

Yes, we all keep using Palm only because it's not Microsoft. Talk about conspiratorial thinking. :roll: By the way, thanks for the umpteenth "Palm is Dead" rant. How long has this been going around on this board and any other place they talk about PPC? Yet they [Palm] still keep leading market share numbers. Better yet, their OS outsells MS' by a landslide.

Are we all that stupid not to be listening to you??? Please, show us the way of our errors!!!

[Zack Mahdavi]

Personally, I'm excited about OS 6. Granted, I've been waiting a long time for OS 6 to come out. That's actually what convinced me to switch to the Pocket PC.

I have a feeling that OS 6 will be very stable with high-performing multimedia capabilities. What excites me the most is the simplicity Palm maintains with its OS. I have a lot of friends who use the Palm OS, mainly for listening to music and PIM functions. They don't care about the power that the Pocket PC offers. Simplicity is where Palm excels, and as long as they keep innovating, the Palm OS will always have a signficant marketshare.

That's my 2 cents.. :)

[pdaisdead]

More FUD from Hansberry....Hey Ed, I can't believe it took you this long being that OS 6.0 was announced a while back now. The marketing department at MS won't be pleased with you this time around.

As for the requirement (assuming some random poster is correct) that the application needs to be written with multi-tasking in mind...so what??? It would seem the Palm development community has been able to adapt to most requirements thrown in front of it (Sony's and PalmOne's requirements for various flavors of High-res and VG). There were those like you that said the the migration to OS 5.0 and the use of ARMlets was going to be a total mess (needless to say it came off without a hitch).

And really....the best you can do beyond this is rag on the supposed inability to assign multiple categories??? :roll: Oh my, either OS 6.0 sounds pretty rock solid, or you really are slipping. Quick someone call Microsoft and report Private Hansberry for reprimand! :lol:

pdaisdead, is there a particular reason why you feel a need to attack Ed for making an observation? One thing about this forum is we all agree at some point to disagree. What one person feels is important in an app does not mean another will feel the same way. That's part of life...

We are comparing a gas engine to a electric engine here, yes they both do the same thing but they do it differently. Enviromental concerns aside, it doesn't make one or the other better, getting peeved about it and launching off doesn't help the "bad blood" that does exist between the two communities.

:soapbox:

Sorry if I stepped out of bounds by speaking up but it gets really annoying when we can't even debate something without someone getting royally peeved...

Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this. You know, the one that likes get self righteous with "why can't we all get along" comments. It's your chance to speak out and be a conscious for us all. Next time, save it.

Look, everyone in the PDA website community knows what Hansberry's all about. He's not trying to help you or make your experience with your handheld necessarily better. He just wants to make sure your using Microsoft's OS and not Palm's (it's so bad you'd think a Palm employee ran over his dog back in '97 or something). He's "evangelising". Even the people on this site know it. He gets called on it all the time, and not just by me.

He's not alone, but he's certainly seen as the most rabid. This is one way you get one of those ridiculous "MVP" tags Microsoft hands out. Know your source.

[manywhere]

...just a thought. I wonder if anyone ported Linux to palm devices (like Opie). Then palm users could have multitasking...a proper filesystem, nifty konqueror browser etc. (since the new Palm devices actually have more power now than the earlier ones).
Well, :google: :ing for answers turned up this one:
http://www.linuxda.com/prodservs/software.html

This Linux port isn't for all Palm devices and I wonder if anyone it really works... :?

[Floodguy]

At my location here in Tokyo, Japan, the sides always change. Over the start of the year the Pocket PC held the top position, because Toshiba released their super slim (and fast) e400 here. :lol:
At time, Sony outsells the Pocket PC with their new Clie TH55 and TJ37 models (sold out at time). I'm a hardcore Pocket PC fan, but I must admit that I bought a Clie TH55 too. :oops:
I have to say that I'm not a Palm OS fan, and the most disappointing on the Palm site is the lack of an (true/native) integration/syncing with Outlook. The reason I bought the Clie is more because Sony has a lot of interesting apps on this device (a really good Organizer, Decuma) and also the Picsel Document(PDF, DOC,XLS...) viewer is a must (have it on my WinCE 4.x device too, but no Pocket PC version yet). Also these Sony apps all support the full Clie screen size, what the native Palm OS doesn't.
:roll:
Not to mention, that I can sit at my PC, start VS2003 and building apps for my Pocket PC. That won't happen that easily with a Palm. :lol:

And no, I'm not switching over to Palm.
:D

[juni]

This Linux port isn't for all Palm devices and I wonder if anyone it really works...

Well, it doesn't look very impressive:

http://www.linuxda.com/images/screenshots/twins.gif

[huangzhinong]

Your Treo 90 runs OS 6.0?? Cool. :roll:

So, you are talking about OS 6.0? I thought you said all Palm OS can do Palm OS 6.0 can do.

As far as I know, POS 6.0 can't allow native files in ram either. Show me your source if you have, don't speak like you have one in hand.

[jonathanchoo]

The thing is about my T3 is I do not even have to leave VersaMail to fetch an e-mail address. I can get it from there. And using a DA program such as Call Lookup DA (pop up programs called Desk Accessory) I can also get e-mails and phone numbers of a contact without leaving any application.

Multitasking! Bah - I tried multitasking on my old Toshiba e310 and HP h2210 but it does not work properly.

However OS6's enchancement looks pretty poor. Not so dissapointed by lack of GUI improvement since I personally think the GUI does not need improving. But no landscape support! PalmOne did a better job with the T3. I sure wish PalmOne and PalmSource will be united again.

http://images.palmgear.com/software/screenshots/160x160/6647.gif

[AhuhX]

At my location here in Tokyo, Japan, the sides always change. Over the start of the year the Pocket PC held the top position

Same here in Australia. It's been bouncing around since Pocket PC came out. HP beat Palm out on the last round I saw. Not sure whether Palm has managed to swing things around. It's fun to watch anyway... :D

[yslee]

yslee, if there wasn't legit cause for bashing you wouldn't see it. Fact of the matter is OS6 was suppose to bring Palm OS up to par with the Pocket PC and at the end of the day it starting to look like it will fall drastically short.


See, I really don't understand the need to bash a company, and all the more based on a simulator, of an OS which isn't out on the market yet. Not everyone needs multitasking (I know I do), but I can see a lot who don't. Please don't have tunnel vision; this is akin to those who say bluetooth or wifi is a must; it isn't. Different strokes for different folks.

Just judge the final product, and don't use such childish tactics. Mudslinging makes one look very poor.

OTOH, Inktoo, you need to post more often. pdaisdead vs Inktoo, now that'd be another fight worth watching. =P

[arnage2]

that further proves my point. PPC is a handheld computer, while palm os is a glorified organizer. I have had many palms and ppcs, and i can truly say that ppc is better.

PPC will continuse to be a beter platform with new emulators, landscape/portrait, vga, and wirless directx/mmx. Not to mention that 95% of ppc2002 and ppc 2003 devices can have wifi and/or bt via built in wirless, cf, pcmcia, or sdio.

[Anthony Caruana]

Ummm....OS 5.0 is ahead of PPC in mine and the majority's opinion. Otherwise, why would more of us purchase it than PPC?

Not in my part of the world. And, Micorosft will end up outselling Palm. I have no doubt that will happen. And the simple reason why - the corporate world love Microsoft. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'm just stating the facts. In Australia, there used to be a debate about whether companies would standardise on POS or PPC. There is no debate anymore. When someone says they want a PDA, the discussion is about which Pocket PC.

The Palm devices were the true trailblazers. They made it cool for ordinary people (not just nerds) to carry a little computer in their pocket. Without the early Plam devices I doubt that there would be such a thing as a PDA market. But they got slack and didn't read the market. If Sony didn't make such awesome devices this wouldn't be a discussion about the next POS release - it would be a "remember when there were those palm pilot things"

People want their PDA to be more than a diary. They want to be able to read an email while listening to an mp3. They want to be able to read a book, check their address book for a phone numer, have the PDA dial the number on their phone, and then return to the book just where they left off.

The real fun in the PDA world will come when the devices and the operating systems are decoupled. Then I can pick the hardware I like and apply the OS I want. Sure, many will stick to what the device ships with (like so many desktop PCs running Windoze) but it will then become a question of choice.

As for you supposition that POS5 is "ahead" in the majority's opinion - show me the stats. Just cos you say it's so, doesn't make it true. ANd by the way - ahead in what? Function? Sales? Prettiness? Next time you want to make such a statement be a little more specific.

[Ed Hansberry]

pdaisdead - back up your statements I am spreading FUD and address the comments I and others have made.

Does OS 6 provide true multitasking - meaning all apps you load stay loaded and forms don't close?
Does OS 6 have true file system - can you copy files to RAM without them being converted to database files? Can you seamlessly access storage cards?
Does OS 6 support multiple categories per record?

If you know the answers and info given here is incorrect, tell us. If you don't know, then it is you who are cheerleading for a platform you know little about.

[shawnc]

This is one way you get one of those ridiculous "MVP" tags Microsoft hands out. Know your source.

Envy is an ugly emotion :evil: !

[Steven Cedrone]

Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing about you! :roll: Why is it necessary for "Palm Zealots" to hang out and troll Pocket PC forums. Is it because the OS you so vehemently support can not stand on it's own when compared to other OS's? And don't say you are here to "dispel myths and inaccuracies", that's the same line other PZ's have used in the past, and quite frankly, it's an old and tired arguement...

If you want to stay in the forums and debate with the community here, that's fine. Only, you better dial it down a notch - I am tired of receiving complaints about you!

Steve

[unxmully]

Not in my part of the world. And, Micorosft will end up outselling Palm. I have no doubt that will happen. And the simple reason why - the corporate world love Microsoft. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'm just stating the facts. In Australia, there used to be a debate about whether companies would standardise on POS or PPC. There is no debate anymore. When someone says they want a PDA, the discussion is about which Pocket PC.


Where I work it's neither. It's the Blackberry because of the way it works with Exchange.

[Ben Stark]

Ummm....OS 5.0 is ahead of PPC in mine and the majority's opinion. Otherwise, why would more of us purchase it than PPC?

Sadly, it's ignorance. The vast majority of the world's population still calls every PDA a "Palm Pilot". When some average Joe decides to buy a "Palm Pilot" what device do you think he will end up with? Yup, he buys a Palm because he doesn't know any better. Once the general population becomes more knowledgable about the choices they have, Palm will eventually be destroyed unless they come up with something better than POS (not Palm Operating System) 6.0.

[Ben Stark]

Not in my part of the world. And, Micorosft will end up outselling Palm. I have no doubt that will happen. And the simple reason why - the corporate world love Microsoft. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'm just stating the facts. In Australia, there used to be a debate about whether companies would standardise on POS or PPC. There is no debate anymore. When someone says they want a PDA, the discussion is about which Pocket PC.


Where I work it's neither. It's the Blackberry because of the way it works with Exchange.

The Blackberry has its own OS? What is it?

[unxmully]

Not in my part of the world. And, Micorosft will end up outselling Palm. I have no doubt that will happen. And the simple reason why - the corporate world love Microsoft. I'm not saying that's a good thing - I'm just stating the facts. In Australia, there used to be a debate about whether companies would standardise on POS or PPC. There is no debate anymore. When someone says they want a PDA, the discussion is about which Pocket PC.


Where I work it's neither. It's the Blackberry because of the way it works with Exchange.

The Blackberry has its own OS? What is it?

No idea. I have an M500 and an Ipaq, not a Blackberry. I suppose it wouldn't be too hard to find out though.

[unxmully]

Did anyone bother to read the discussion thread at http://www.palminfocenter.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=20623

Hotpaw4 goes on to describe in more detail why MultiTasking has not been implemented as it was on the PPC Platform and I quote:

"With other handheld OS's, when you put an app in the background, both the UI and its background threads take up memory, wasting a whole bunch in some cases.

With Cobalt, when you want to run another app, the previous app is told to quit, so only its persistant background threads can take up memory. Background threads can't have any UI, so there are no non-running UI's taking up space in the application memory heap. If you want to see if a background email thread downloaded any email, for example, you can just relaunch the email app so it can check on the status of its background threads. Thus you need nothing other than the launcher.

Background threads also run in a seperate memory heap, so although you probably could fill that heap, threads usually use far less memory than an application, so it would take maybe 10 times more to fill up the heap than with other OS's, and they still wouldn't get in the way of the main application memory heap."

From what I've quoted above, this seems to be an eminently sensible implementation. Mail clients still download while you read your e-book. Your MP3 player doesn't stop working just because it's in the background. So the product has to work in a different manner, so what. My Mac Newsreader uses separate threads to download news and drive the UI so it's not exacly rocket science now is it.

You'll pardon me for saying this but it seems to me that there is a pavlovian element here. When someone mentions PalmOS, someone on a PocketPC fan site has to trash the product because it still doesn't "multitask" or because it still doesn't have a file system.

No doubt the same is true of the Palm world as well :?

Edited to change the 10ecks above to 10 times to avoid the alien smiley appearing.

[Christian]

I too read this thread and I must say that, at the least, the decision not to implement true multitasking has real advantages. Sure, it is dangerous to rely on developers to adhere to this model and manage background threads correctly. But perhaps we can at least agree to move beyond the "Palm sucks because it doesn't multitask" line of argument? :roll: I'm sure on a similar forum not too far away, people are going through the "PocketPC sucks because most of the computing resources are wasted on hidden UI elements."

[Ed Hansberry]

"With other handheld OS's, when you put an app in the background, both the UI and its background threads take up memory, wasting a whole bunch in some cases.

With Cobalt, when you want to run another app, the previous app is told to quit, so only its persistant background threads can take up memory. Background threads can't have any UI, so there are no non-running UI's taking up space in the application memory heap. If you want to see if a background email thread downloaded any email, for example, you can just relaunch the email app so it can check on the status of its background threads. Thus you need nothing other than the launcher.

Background threads also run in a seperate memory heap, so although you probably could fill that heap, threads usually use far less memory than an application, so it would take maybe 10 times more to fill up the heap than with other OS's, and they still wouldn't get in the way of the main application memory heap."
Doesn't that depend on the size of the heap? There is a specific block of RAM for that heap and it can handle so many threads. This has shades of the resource heaps that for years constrained Windows 3.x and Win9x.

NT, 2000, XP and 2003 have those heaps to but they are virtual, meaning you'll need to fill up your hard drive with virtual memory before they actually fill up.
From what I've quoted above, this seems to be an eminently sensible implementation. Mail clients still download while you read your e-book. Your MP3 player doesn't stop working just because it's in the background. So the product has to work in a different manner, so what. My Mac Newsreader uses separate threads to download news and drive the UI so it's not exacly rocket science now is it.

You'll pardon me for saying this but it seems to me that there is a pavlovian element here. When someone mentions PalmOS, someone on a PocketPC fan site has to trash the product because it still doesn't "multitask" or because it still doesn't have a file system.
Not at all. The first real world example I could think of - a contact form - fails under the Palm multitasking scenario. It closes the UI but the contact thread still runs in the background. Who cares if it is running in the background. If I still have to go and open that form, it does me no good.

What about apps that are slow to load - those that can take 2-3 seconds, or longer - to load? It sounds to me that those would still load just as slowly on the "relaunch" as if you were first loading them. Does this background thread speed up that launching?

[unxmully]

What about apps that are slow to load - those that can take 2-3 seconds, or longer - to load? It sounds to me that those would still load just as slowly on the "relaunch" as if you were first loading them. Does this background thread speed up that launching?

This specific example was discussed at length and I see no point in cutting and pasting the text. As I suggested in my original message, the whole thread is worth a read, not just the headline.

A question occurs to me. You changed the subject on the message when you replied to me. Are you suggesting that my attempt to show a more balanced description of the PalmOS features is a troll?

[felixdd]

Again, I say supposed as this is coming from a poster to website (not official word from Palm Source). It wouldn't necessarily surprise me if this were true but, if it is, who gives a rat's fat arse!? That's it's big shortcoming? Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC. There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

I give a rat's arse, as does many people. It is a big shortcoming, the lack of true multitasking, or the lack of categories, for some users.
I can say the same thing about your stability argument can't I? Who give's a rat's arse? Obviously it sounds unreasonable to you, but that's because to you, it's a necessity.

But necessities are different for different people, and I think you have to accept that. yslee sums this up nicely,


See, I really don't understand the need to bash a company, and all the more based on a simulator, of an OS which isn't out on the market yet. Not everyone needs multitasking (I know I do), but I can see a lot who don't. Please don't have tunnel vision; this is akin to those who say bluetooth or wifi is a must; it isn't. Different strokes for different folks.

I personally find the Palm GUI very hard to use -- not "intuitive" at all. But I also realize that that is because I grew up on a Windows environment -- 3.0...3.1...95...98...and now XP. But I'm an open-minded person, so I don't mind trying out a Palm. In fact, I have, but I still did not like what I saw.

What I think some of us are angry at is the fact that Palm has been contradictory about what they want, and what they are about. They pushed the "no-frills" philosophy of the PDA, while MS supported a rich, multimedia device, and gets bashed by Palm because of it.

Now look where the market is headed.

As well, Palm has promised many things -- multi-tasking, a fresh GUI design, and a fresh new concept on a OS. From what I've read, it is taking many steps to do so, and at a cost of many compromises. It doesn't feel like a new OS -- it feels like an upgrade (although I admit that it's a really big upgrade, to implement new threading designs and all).

And I'm also sick and tired of being told how I want to use a machine. I'm the user, so I want to chose what I do with my unit. Read this first, http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt

PalmSource's Mr. Slotnick said...that the developers don't necessarily think that the familiar paradigm of files in folders is appropriate for handhelds.

I'm sorry, but that's a weak excuse for not implementing a file structure.

Still, Larry Slotnick from PalmSource said this morning that his company intends to change the look and feel in the next version of Cobalt.

I thought they promised a new GUI for this version of Cobalt?

I remember someone saying this as well but can't for the life of me remember who -- why is it taking Palm so many iterations to do what Windows CE was able to do nearly in the very beginning?

[Partita]

The reason I bought the Clie is more because Sony has a lot of interesting apps on this device (a really good Organizer, Decuma) and also the Picsel Document(PDF, DOC,XLS...) viewer is a must (have it on my WinCE 4.x device too, but no Pocket PC version yet). Also these Sony apps all support the full Clie screen size, what the native Palm OS doesn't.
:D

you do realize decuma is a PPC apps long before Sony started using it right?

also check clearvue. (not sure if it reads Japanese, but I think it does)

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Ummm....OS 5.0 is ahead of PPC in mine and the majority's opinion. Otherwise, why would more of us purchase it than PPC?

Sadly, it's ignorance. The vast majority of the world's population still calls every PDA a "Palm Pilot". When some average Joe decides to buy a "Palm Pilot" what device do you think he will end up with? Yup, he buys a Palm because he doesn't know any better.
That's actually an interesting point. I have more people that qualify my device as a Palm than those that correctly recognize it as a PocketPC. For those that I correct, the first (and most common) question out of their mouth is usually, "What's the difference?".

Also, I was in Thailand recently, when someone was asking me to evaluate whether they should go Palm or PPC. One of their preconceptions was that there was a LOT more software available for the Palm. I think it's safe to say at this point that there are so many applications available for both, that volume of available software would not be deciding factor anymore.

Once the general population becomes more knowledgable about the choices they have, Palm will eventually be destroyed unless they come up with something better than POS (not Palm Operating System) 6.0.
We'll have to see. I don't feel that people recognize a PPC a whole lot better than they did a couple of years ago though there has been some improvement. Also, even amongst those who know what a PPC is, many only look to do PIM activities, which would fail to highlight the PPC as the obvious choice.

[pdaisdead]

Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing about you! :roll: Why is it necessary for "Palm Zealots" to hang out and troll Pocket PC forums. Is it because the OS you so vehemently support can not stand on it's own when compared to other OS's? And don't say you are here to "dispel myths and inaccuracies", that's the same line other PZ's have used in the past, and quite frankly, it's an old and tired arguement...

If you want to stay in the forums and debate with the community here, that's fine. Only, you better dial it down a notch - I am tired of receiving complaints about you!

Steve

Ooohh...I'm terrified!! So, you'd rather be free to wallow in your own zealotry here? Sorry, but if you all sit around and say the same things and never get challenged, it still won't make them true.

[Ed Hansberry]

This specific example was discussed at length and I see no point in cutting and pasting the text. As I suggested in my original message, the whole thread is worth a read, not just the headline.
I did read the thread. I don't see where it was clearly answered.A question occurs to me. You changed the subject on the message when you replied to me. Are you suggesting that my attempt to show a more balanced description of the PalmOS features is a troll?
No, I was suggesting that your title of flaming and laughter is suggesting the entire thread is a joke and I am suggesting it is not.

I've made some statemtns and I stand by them. I've asked questions and gotten no answers. I am not saying what PalmSource is doing is wrong, but it isn't what I've been hearing for over a year now that OS6 will deliver. Even some at PIC are are finding it hard to see what OS6 will really offer. I really sthink PalmSource is stuck with either backwards compatibility issues with OS4/5 apps or the entire model that begins with OS3 years ago is just not going to work any longer and they need to start from scratch - which is not a thinkable alternative.

[pdaisdead]

pdaisdead - back up your statements I am spreading FUD and address the comments I and others have made.

Does OS 6 provide true multitasking - meaning all apps you load stay loaded and forms don't close?
Does OS 6 have true file system - can you copy files to RAM without them being converted to database files? Can you seamlessly access storage cards?
Does OS 6 support multiple categories per record?

If you know the answers and info given here is incorrect, tell us. If you don't know, then it is you who are cheerleading for a platform you know little about.

As another poster mentioned, read the rest of the thread Einstein. It does allow for multi-tasking. Because it doesn't get there like MS products it isn't multi-tasking?? I'd say that's a good thing given their stability, or lack there of. You said yourself that this simply needs to be written into the program. So what gives?

I'll tell you what. You're using semantics and really on one source (some poster to a web board no less) to trash the OS. Sounds like FUD to me. You might want to get your facts in order first next time. Should we be surprised however that a post like this came from the likes of you?

[Ed Hansberry]

if you all sit around and say the same things and never get challenged, it still won't make them true.
We are still waiting for you to challenge them instead of getting twinkie sputum on your screen as you type.

[pdaisdead]

Again, I say supposed as this is coming from a poster to website (not official word from Palm Source). It wouldn't necessarily surprise me if this were true but, if it is, who gives a rat's fat arse!? That's it's big shortcoming? Early reports are that it is every bit as stable and zippy as OS 5.0 (if not more so). That means it won't crash, lock-up, and require a reset 5 times a day a la PPC. There's a reason it outsells anything MS puts out.

I give a rat's arse, as does many people. It is a big shortcoming, the lack of true multitasking, or the lack of categories, for some users.
I can say the same thing about your stability argument can't I? Who give's a rat's arse? Obviously it sounds unreasonable to you, but that's because to you, it's a necessity.

But necessities are different for different people, and I think you have to accept that. yslee sums this up nicely,


See, I really don't understand the need to bash a company, and all the more based on a simulator, of an OS which isn't out on the market yet. Not everyone needs multitasking (I know I do), but I can see a lot who don't. Please don't have tunnel vision; this is akin to those who say bluetooth or wifi is a must; it isn't. Different strokes for different folks.

I personally find the Palm GUI very hard to use -- not "intuitive" at all. But I also realize that that is because I grew up on a Windows environment -- 3.0...3.1...95...98...and now XP. But I'm an open-minded person, so I don't mind trying out a Palm. In fact, I have, but I still did not like what I saw.

What I think some of us are angry at is the fact that Palm has been contradictory about what they want, and what they are about. They pushed the "no-frills" philosophy of the PDA, while MS supported a rich, multimedia device, and gets bashed by Palm because of it.

Now look where the market is headed.

As well, Palm has promised many things -- multi-tasking, a fresh GUI design, and a fresh new concept on a OS. From what I've read, it is taking many steps to do so, and at a cost of many compromises. It doesn't feel like a new OS -- it feels like an upgrade (although I admit that it's a really big upgrade, to implement new threading designs and all).

And I'm also sick and tired of being told how I want to use a machine. I'm the user, so I want to chose what I do with my unit. Read this first, http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt

PalmSource's Mr. Slotnick said...that the developers don't necessarily think that the familiar paradigm of files in folders is appropriate for handhelds.

I'm sorry, but that's a weak excuse for not implementing a file structure.

Still, Larry Slotnick from PalmSource said this morning that his company intends to change the look and feel in the next version of Cobalt.

I thought they promised a new GUI for this version of Cobalt?

I remember someone saying this as well but can't for the life of me remember who -- why is it taking Palm so many iterations to do what Windows CE was able to do nearly in the very beginning?

Look, I (and most others) don't care how Palm goes about implementing it's usage of files because I can get the same result as I can on a PPC. Actually, probably better because it won't crash on me constantly.

As to GUI, I say why change it? It works perfectly. Spend $15 and get a third party if you think it's that bad.

Lastly: I yes, the "see, Palm is now implementing the features PPC's had forever" argument. Well, PPC never integrated those features in a truly functional manner. Maybe Palm is just smart enough to wait until they can EFFECTIVELY be integrated?

[joelevi]

This goes back to the basis of the whole OS wars from years and years ago.

Simply put, Palm wasn't (and arguably still isn't) anything more than a digital day planner & contact manager. Sure, they've polished around the edges, but it's still not capable of competing with other solutions.

This isn't to say that's a bad thing. When you need a day planner you don't lug around an encyclopedia or set of novels, just your day planner. Palm does just that.

[unxmully]

This specific example was discussed at length and I see no point in cutting and pasting the text. As I suggested in my original message, the whole thread is worth a read, not just the headline.
I did read the thread. I don't see where it was clearly answered.A question occurs to me. You changed the subject on the message when you replied to me. Are you suggesting that my attempt to show a more balanced description of the PalmOS features is a troll?
No, I was suggesting that your title of flaming and laughter is suggesting the entire thread is a joke and I am suggesting it is not.

I've made some statemtns and I stand by them. I've asked questions and gotten no answers. I am not saying what PalmSource is doing is wrong, but it isn't what I've been hearing for over a year now that OS6 will deliver. Even some at PIC are are finding it hard to see what OS6 will really offer. I really sthink PalmSource is stuck with either backwards compatibility issues with OS4/5 apps or the entire model that begins with OS3 years ago is just not going to work any longer and they need to start from scratch - which is not a thinkable alternative.

Not being sure how to update quotes inline:

Re App switching:

" > There is no delay of regenerating UI when brought to front.

Actually, with many modern 2D and 3D graphics API's and graphics accelerator chips, PC or handheld, the only way to bring a window to the front is to do an complete redraw update, since the background frame buffer is not kept in memory. Thus, there can be a small delay doing this complete redraw; but with many graphics accelerators, it's often too fast to notice.

And since this redraw has to be done whether or not the app is running, and also since PalmOS can do execute-in-place instead of always copying an app into memory when launched, there are not many advantages left for the paradigm of keeping non-running apps in the background (perhaps none, given properly written new apps for this environment)."

Re flaming and laughter:

Well that's very much the way it appears - "snigger, those silly sods at Palm still haven't got Multitasking working. What a Piece of S**t OS that is"

Re questions:

Well there's someone on that thread calling themselved RumpRoast who's doing a very good job of managing to misunderstand everything he's told. Following his side of the thread and reading the responses would be a good way of getting out the require responses.

[Scott R]

Anyone know any statistics on which members of the PPC Thoughts team have the highest percentage of eventual locked threads?

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

Anyone know any statistics on which members of the PPC Thoughts team have the highest percentage of eventual locked Threads?
The ones that attract the most people by posting threads that offend their religion. Welcome back Monsenor. ;-)

[Deslock]

LOL… It took 6 pages of flame-wars and bashing before someone (unxmully) actually brought up something up substance. What is especially shocking is that these types of flame-wars seem not only sanctioned, but actually encouraged here at ppcthoughts (via Ed's numerous anti-Palm stories, which usually have enough spin to ensure that an argument ensues).

As an old-school handheld user, I find it partly amusing, but also slightly disturbing.

[Scott R]

Everyone has their own list of top priorities, I suppose. Personally, I don't see multiple categories, work addresses as big shortcomings. Both of these can be addressed by 3rd party apps. I have a need for neither, and so the stock PIM apps suit my needs just fine. Of course, I've already mentioned more times than I can count that you can do multiple addresses with a Palm 5000 in a manner that, I suspect, would meet most people's needs (and, no, it's not using a note field).

The approach to multitasking seems like it could be perfectly fine to me, but I guess I'll have to wait to see how it works first hand. If you take wireless out of the picture, even pre-OS5 Palm OS devices could "multitask" the important things. You could have MP3's playing in the background, you could have a phone conversation going while you pulled up your schedule, and using apps like McPhling you could get at other information as well. Some enterprising developers even managed to tweak their apps so that you could "stay alive" in an IM client. So, it seems to me that the need for multitasking really revolves around the need for more background wireless functionality (checking email periodically while not disturbing the active app, etc.). Welp, it sounds like the official PalmSource approach will accommodate that just fine.

Once again, it seems to me that certain MS fanatics get too caught up in the "numbers game." How much megahertz, does it have this buzzword-feature or that, etc. Most users don't (or, at least, shouldn't) care about any of that. They should simply care about whether it does what they need it to do and in a stable and responsive manner.

Now, for the important things that I think are lacking in OS6:
1) I'd like to see official support for portrait/landscape switching. I think I heard that was missing, oddly enough. For all intents and purposes, I guess that's a non-issue since both palmOne and Tapwave already support that (oddly enough, Sony - the first to use a 480x320 screen, still hasn't figured it out on their own).
2) Support for any file type. Once again, though, my Zodiac will let me load MP3s, JPEGs, and GIFs into local memory, so I guess this is just a matter of time. I don't do Word/Excel editing on-the-go, so I'm not sure if it lets me load Office files locally. It seems like what we're seeing happening is the VFS support being integrated internally. I'm not 100% sure if that's "good enough" or if more tweaking around this model is needed.

As for improving the PIM functionality...Again, I don't really see a strong need to do that. I'd like built-in support for storing someone's birthdays so that the Calendar (aka DateBook) app would automagically inform you of upcoming birthdays. Beyond that, the ancient versions of the PIM apps that came with the Palm 5000 still meet my needs (and, I'd suggest, most others' needs) far better than these way-too-busy/cluttered 3rd party apps. And there you have it...If you want added PIM functionality, there's no shortage of 3rd party apps that will do what you need.

One of the biggest shortcomings in the Palm OS environment for me isn't even PalmSource's fault. Basically, there aren't enough advanced apps available for a couple of the specific wants/needs I have. I'd like an image editing application and a web browser with tab support (and a few other features I won't get into). There's no reason why OS5 devices can't handle those types of apps. Developers simply haven't done it yet.

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

> There is no delay of regenerating UI when brought to front.

Actually, with many modern 2D and 3D graphics API's and graphics accelerator chips, PC or handheld, the only way to bring a window to the front is to do an complete redraw update, since the background frame buffer is not kept in memory. Thus, there can be a small delay doing this complete redraw; but with many graphics accelerators, it's often too fast to notice.

And since this redraw has to be done whether or not the app is running, and also since PalmOS can do execute-in-place instead of always copying an app into memory when launched, there are not many advantages left for the paradigm of keeping non-running apps in the background (perhaps none, given properly written new apps for this environment)."
Ok, but you can redraw a screen in many cases faster than you can launch an app. For example, Textmaker takes a few seconds to load because you have to read several MB of app into memory. This would be the same for a large Palm OS app, especially one on a memory card.

FOr most apps, I'd agree it is irrelevant. Contacts, Calendar, PIE all launch lightning fast. Other apps don't. Then there is the forms issue.

To me it really depends on how you are going to use the OS. For pure PIM, I'd still say a Palm is the way to go because you can get a rock bottom priced Zire and it is very snappy. When you start paying $300 or more though is when I challenge the assumptions. Heck, I challenge them on the Pocket PC too. I still think the lack of a close button and task switcher is ridiculious on a multitasking OS, and don't get me started on the Connection Manager.

[Partita]

Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing about you! :roll: Why is it necessary for "Palm Zealots" to hang out and troll Pocket PC forums. Is it because the OS you so vehemently support can not stand on it's own when compared to other OS's? And don't say you are here to "dispel myths and inaccuracies", that's the same line other PZ's have used in the past, and quite frankly, it's an old and tired arguement...

If you want to stay in the forums and debate with the community here, that's fine. Only, you better dial it down a notch - I am tired of receiving complaints about you!

Steve

Ooohh...I'm terrified!! So, you'd rather be free to wallow in your own zealotry here? Sorry, but if you all sit around and say the same things and never get challenged, it still won't make them true.

Actually the simple thing to do it is BRING your fact and reasonable argument rather than doing 'meta-argument'.

Is there a bias in this site? sure, there is bias everywhere.
But the point is how to resolve this bias? how can we know for sure if what one say is total marketing BS and another is rather reasonable sharp critics.

and so far, OS 6.0 looks like a mickey mouse OS with plenty of limitation on the main new features. (multitasking, etc)

[Partita]

As another poster mentioned, read the rest of the thread Einstein. It does allow for multi-tasking. Because it doesn't get there like MS products it isn't multi-tasking?? I'd say that's a good thing given their stability, or lack there of. You said yourself that this simply needs to be written into the program. So what gives?

The mode of multitasking is very odd. It limits user to a very narrow situation. (a. it doesn't let any OS 5.0 app multitask. b. only OS6.0 'designed' to run on background thread will multitask. c. The OS seems to not provide native UI control on background running app)

all in all user seems to not be able to do 'multitask' as we understand it. ie. running arbitrary apps concurently and be able to control them conviniently. OS 6.0 seems to be 'more of the same thing' as far as user experiance when it come to multitasking. (One apps running, save sate everywhere, except very few specifically designed to run on background apps)

Is a CE perfect multitasking OS? probably not, But it sure as heck closer to above user idea than OS 6.0.


I'll tell you what. You're using semantics and really on one source (some poster to a web board no less) to trash the OS. Sounds like FUD to me. You might want to get your facts in order first next time. Should we be surprised however that a post like this came from the likes of you?

did I hear whining? :roll:

[Partita]

Look, I (and most others) don't care how Palm goes about implementing it's usage of files because I can get the same result as I can on a PPC.

How so? because PPC obviously has the more familiar file structure as in desktop. Even current POS popular file manager add on emulate this format. So obviously user rather deal with native file format rather than database, and tree list still seems to be the easier method to manage file.

Practical issue such as 'can I put my .mpeg/mp3 in my RAM' or 'I can't find my files it's too confusing inside the long list of names' are REAL issue pOS needs to address. And it will be more so as PDA becomes more complex. (imagine taking 500 pictues with buit in camera on PDA... good luck)


As to GUI, I say why change it? It works perfectly. Spend $15 and get a third party if you think it's that bad.

I doubt you will only spend $15 in current OS 5.0. (hacks, launchers, hacks accesories, extensions... All adds up)

what's more even the most advane graphical GUI replacement such as silverscreen and LauncerX/Z don't even come close to PPC GUI replacement such as PPX, Dashboard... etc.


Lastly: I yes, the "see, Palm is now implementing the features PPC's had forever" argument. Well, PPC never integrated those features in a truly functional manner. Maybe Palm is just smart enough to wait until they can EFFECTIVELY be integrated?

'never integrated those feature in a truly functional manner'? what does that mean?

You mean the file system is NOT integrated? or the file manager, PIM, UI, etc are NOT integrated?

I am confuse, do elaborate in greater detail rather than just making general statement.

[manywhere]

Is there a bias in this site? sure, there is bias everywhere.
But the point is how to resolve this bias? how can we know for sure if what one say is total marketing BS and another is rather reasonable sharp critics.
Yes, and let's remember that humans are biased by nature. It will take a lot of evolving before we can be truly unbiased. That is why it is hard for (some) Pocket PC users to favor Palm and vice versa.

But, the quality of certain people's discussion here has been bad. So bad, that I've wondered if, the person in question, is stuck in elementary school. The discussion was not constructive nor informative and the person should stick to palm-users forums the next time he/she has some serious bashing to do. Whenever, he/she chooses to discuss Palm-issues on a Pocket PC forum, he/she is recommended to choose a more diplomatic and professional tone as he/she represents the whole Palm community in the PPC forums. If the person chooses to flame, he/she is not only ridiculing of him-/herself but the whole Palm community in the eyes of Pocket PC users. :|

And finally kiddos, remember this: the truth lies in the eye of the beholder. Whatever you consider true might appear false from someone else's perspective.

[Partita]

Actually, with many modern 2D and 3D graphics API's and graphics accelerator chips, PC or handheld, the only way to bring a window to the front is to do an complete redraw update, since the background frame buffer is not kept in memory. Thus, there can be a small delay doing this complete redraw; but with many graphics accelerators, it's often too fast to notice.

Hotpaw4, is that you!!! :lol:

(only you try to advance the idea graphic accellerator will cure the UI speed issue, while common sense say, not erasing UI when brought to background would do just handily. Cheaper even. Add little RAM and better memory management, voila... fast UI foreground/background)


And since this redraw has to be done whether or not the app is running,
application redraw is solely in the hand of application. If the app is multitasking aware, it will reduce it's UI redrawn request when in background.


and also since PalmOS can do execute-in-place instead of always copying an app into memory when launched, there are not many advantages left for the paradigm of keeping non-running apps in the background (perhaps none, given properly written new apps for this environment)."

execute in place is VERY memory intensive preposition. There is a reason why everything is compresed and compiled. Execute in place was a good idea when CPU was so underpowered and PDA applications were tiny. But now CPU are approachign desktop power and PDA applications are gigantic (eg. games database), while economical memory technology still hovers around 64/128MB.

At anyrate, can you tell us how user will experiance multitasking in OS 6.0?

Let's say I am playing NES emulator on XDA, then the phone rang, I pause it, turn on phone and have a chat. During the conversation I need to look up agenda, and browse the web plus copy pasting several item to send it via email to my buddy on the other end of phone.

After done talking on phone I want my NES emulator back, on EXACT spot where I leave it. (you don't expect me to run through thhose levels again do you?)

(I am waiting, do explain how all these will be done on OS 6.0. I hope we are not getting a lecture how great save state can be, because it isn't)

[unxmully]

[quote=unxmully]

Hotpaw4, is that you!!! :lol:



Nope. I'm quoting him verbatim from the discussion thread where all of this was covered. Ed was unable to find the responses to his questions so I went and got them.

I claim no deep knowledge of my own.

[Dave Potter]

Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this.

Actually, I was thinking the same thing about you! :roll: Why is it necessary for "Palm Zealots" to hang out and troll Pocket PC forums. Is it because the OS you so vehemently support can not stand on it's own when compared to other OS's? And don't say you are here to "dispel myths and inaccuracies", that's the same line other PZ's have used in the past, and quite frankly, it's an old and tired arguement...

If you want to stay in the forums and debate with the community here, that's fine. Only, you better dial it down a notch - I am tired of receiving complaints about you!

Steve

Ooohh...I'm terrified!! So, you'd rather be free to wallow in your own zealotry here? Sorry, but if you all sit around and say the same things and never get challenged, it still won't make them true.


As I read your postings on this thread - I am struck at how obnoxious you are. And, you still have not answered the questions posed to you. Nor have you disproved Ed's comments or anyone else's for that matter. You are, however, very good at sharing your personal opinions.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. Opinions are like a$$holes - everybody's got one.

[Jason Lee]

Sigh.. Same arguments as always from both sides... At this rate no one is going to win.

Let's take this discussion to the next level. :)


Palm users are poopie heads!!! :razz:

[Steven Cedrone]

[As I read your postings on this thread - I am struck at how obnoxious you are.

That is very true!

And, you still have not answered the questions posed to you. Nor have you disproved Ed's comments or anyone else's for that matter.

Mr. Pdaisdead will not be here to comment for a few days. Now let's get back to our debate (now free from personal attacks - hopefully! :wink: ).

Steve

[Scott R]

What do you call a debate where everyone agrees?

Scott

[Steven Cedrone]

What do you call a debate where everyone agrees?

Over? :wink:

Steve

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

What do you call a debate where everyone agrees?

Scott
I don't think most of us mind a debate... but most of us would probably prefer if it were free from personal attack (and pdaisdead is not the only poster that has gotten personal though he has certainly been the most frequent and the most visible in this thread).

I think your last post was a great example of an intellectual debate. If pdaisdead had approached this thread with that same demeanor, we'd have a much higher-quality debate going on.

[dorelse]

Ok, back on topic.

I have gone back & forth between PPC's & Palms. I've had lots of both of them. I currently have in front of me a Palm T3 & iPaq 4355.

I'm stuggling to understand how Palm OS6 is going to benefit me. All my old OS4 apps will run (goodness), all my current OS5 apps will run (goodness again). New OS 6 apps will run on it as well, however, its not multithreaded, ie, no "Wisbar'ish" style app switcher? No AIM, MSN Messenger running in the background while I surf &/or check e-mail?

Where is the benefit? I'm seriously asking how is Palm OS6 going to improve the 'quality' of my experience on the Palm platform? The PIM apps in OS6 aren't overly impressive. PalmOne did a nice job on the 5.2's PIM apps...hopefully they'll improve the OS6 ones as well.

Both the units I have are very good quality PDA's. My 4355 is rock solid...rarely do I have to do a soft reset. My T3 crashes daily...however, that is not Palm's fault, the majority of my crashes are caused by Agendus.

To quote a commerical...."Where's the cream filling?" I might be a power user, but in the end, how is my experience on the Palm OS improved by this? I don't know...hopefully some of you do...

I don't know, I've always resisted the Clie's b/c of the MS..but their new Organizer Suite looks very nice, and might be tempting...plus with built in wi-fi, that could fill a huge void that my T3 has desperately lacked.

[Pixel]

The last time I checked the URL to this site it was called pocketpcthoughts... Not handheldcomputerthoughts. Of course Ed is biased, he believes as most of the people who regularly visit this site. They are interested in PPC news, which includes news and opinion on what "the dark side" is planning. I think Ed's comments are well taken... at the very least Palm has done a horrible job explaining what features will be released with Cobalt. Don't blame him for asking questions, blame Palm for not properly explaining what features will be included.

I started on Palm, and I am a new user of an IPAQ 2210, and lovin every minute of it.

[Ed Hansberry]

I'll be curious to see how Palm OS6 is at memory management. Even when you close apps, there is some definite leakage in the Pocket PC. Here is my 2215 with WM2003 after 3 days without a soft reset - I soft reset on Saturdays after a full backup. It had the BT stack activated and deactivated once, a Socket WiFi card inserted half a dozen times and tons of apps used - MS Reader, WMP, Pocket Bible, Pocket Informant, PIE, Inbox, etc. There are no apps shown as running in the memory dialog box.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20040302-mem1.png

Now, here it is immediately after a soft reset.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/hansberry/2004/20040302-mem2.png

Now, what happened to that 10.5MB? :confused totally:

[Scott R]

No AIM, MSN Messenger running in the background while I surf &/or check e-mail?My understanding is that you will be able to do exactly that, though the email and IM developers will need to update their apps to support it.

Scott

[dorelse]

Yeah, I see a problem with that already...I'm dependent on individual developers to update their apps to run in the new background thread architecture. Like that will happen quickly...half my apps don't even use the T3's DIA yet...

Maybe its very easy to do, but they say that about the DIA as well.

[Janak Parekh]

I'll be curious to see how Palm OS6 is at memory management. Even when you close apps, there is some definite leakage in the Pocket PC.
It's gotta be an app of yours. I don't get the leakage anywhere near what you get. I haven't reset for weeks and I have perhaps lost a meg or two -- I don't even track anymore. :)

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Look, everyone in the PDA website community knows what Hansberry's all about. He's not trying to help you or make your experience with your handheld necessarily better.
This is untrue, FWIW. Ed has recommended Palms in the past and still does so sometimes. I know I still do so for some applications. But for those who use Outlook heavily, I find Pocket PCs to be a much better choice. As soon as I heard that PalmOS 6 won't have multiple categorization, that was a deal-killer for me -- about 50% of my contacts, for example, are multiply-categorized. I hope I'm wrong about that. :|

He's "evangelising". Even the people on this site know it. He gets called on it all the time, and not just by me.
To some extent, we're here because we believe Pocket PCs are the best PDAs. That's the bias we have -- and we make no attempt to hide it. As long as we back up why we feel so, there's nothing wrong with it.

--janak

[yslee]

Ah, it's nice to have a chat about the shortcomings of the Palm sans the namecalling and childish insults.


I personally find the Palm GUI very hard to use -- not "intuitive" at all.


Acutally, I do find it quite intuitive. Some parts of it aren't that much different from Windows. And the UI is nice in a sense it does take less tapping to get stuff done. MS should do a revamp of their own to curb a buncha tapping.

What I think some of us are angry at is the fact that Palm has been contradictory about what they want, and what they are about.

I realised that after read the entire thread. I think the reason why I don't empathise with most of the posters is because I rarely buy into press spin and hype (I'm fairly marketing resistent). I see devices for what they are and use them accordingly. As it is Palm does have a few strengths, like in a simpler UI, alarms that work, and Hotsync that doesn't drive me up the wall. =P


As well, Palm has promised many things -- multi-tasking, a fresh GUI design, and a fresh new concept on a OS. From what I've read, it is taking many steps to do so, and at a cost of many compromises. It doesn't feel like a new OS -- it feels like an upgrade (although I admit that it's a really big upgrade, to implement new threading designs and all).


I don't really see the compromise. If it's about apps needing a rewrite, I think it's a small price to pay, and besides, it's the developer's doing the rewriting, not the end user!

And I'm also sick and tired of being told how I want to use a machine. I'm the user, so I want to chose what I do with my unit. Read this first, http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt

Never had that feeling regardless of what PDA I use!

I'm sorry, but that's a weak excuse for not implementing a file structure.

That is my main problem with Palm. Lack of directories and native file support. So I have this document, and Quickoffice claims native app support. I copy it to \Palm\Launcher on my SD card. Opps, wrong directory, has to be \programs\quickoffice (or something like that). Then I realise it's RTF and darn stupid program doesn't support it. Excuse me while I scream.

Back on the PPC it was just copy and go.

I remember someone saying this as well but can't for the life of me remember who -- why is it taking Palm so many iterations to do what Windows CE was able to do nearly in the very beginning?

Because Palm wasn't designed this way. Even now I still feel PPC is much better at networking than Palm. Palm's support for networks still feels like a hack job, compared to the PPC.

Steven, don't tell Inktoo/Partita to take a break. He's insanely entertaining. Have a forum called "Flaming Entertainment" and dump him/her and pdaisdead in there. Guranteed days of fun!

[Scott R]

As soon as I heard that PalmOS 6 won't have multiple categorization, that was a deal-killer for me -- about 50% of my contacts, for example, are multiply-categorized. I hope I'm wrong about that. :|Janak, as I mentioned, there is at least one (and probably more than that) replacement Contacts app that will give you this functionality. The one I can think of off the top of my head is KeyContacts. Here's a link with more info:
http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&SID=CA8B19DD-CF18-A787-A5B1215E0B392D50&PartnerREF=&prodID=50164

I'm not sure why it's so important that this has to be part of the core PIM functionality.

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

Ah, it's nice to have a chat about the shortcomings of the Palm sans the namecalling and childish insults.
Kicked off on page one by....
More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page. :|

[Scott R]

Kicked off on page one by....
More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page. :|Actually, I thought it was kicked off by the guy who posted this news story. ;)

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

Janak, as I mentioned, there is at least one (and probably more than that) replacement Contacts app that will give you this functionality. The one I can think of off the top of my head is KeyContacts. Here's a link with more info:
http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&SID=CA8B19DD-CF18-A787-A5B1215E0B392D50&PartnerREF=&prodID=50164

I'm not sure why it's so important that this has to be part of the core PIM functionality.
To me categories are deeply core to PIM. If you have a third party app (a $60 third party app no less) adding that functionality but don't care for that third party UI, you are stuck. That would be like the PPC only allowing one category and Developer One's Agenda Fusion adding multiple category support. Locks me out from using Pocket Informant, or even the built in PIM apps.

Palm keeps harping on their database OS and continues to shun a true file system. Well, fine. Then use the database! Categories are what make PIM databases so powerful.

[yslee]

Ah, it's nice to have a chat about the shortcomings of the Palm sans the namecalling and childish insults.
Kicked off on page one by....
More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page. :|

Ed, please show me in what way was it an insult, or name calling. I don't think I attacked your character personally, just your comments. And it certainly wasn't an insult at them either.

I'd think it started off with pdaisdead and Partita. =P

[Janak Parekh]

Janak, as I mentioned, there is at least one (and probably more than that) replacement Contacts app that will give you this functionality. The one I can think of off the top of my head is KeyContacts. Here's a link with more info:
http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&SID=CA8B19DD-CF18-A787-A5B1215E0B392D50&PartnerREF=&prodID=50164
I find it absolutely critical that it's part of the core PIM functionality because my categories transcend just one part of the PIM. My appointments, tasks, and notes are also heavily categorized. (BTW, ActiveSync sucks at handling categorized notes -- because Outlook does too. :evil:) I see that they have a full suite of apps, but I really like having it part of the base schema, because then I can use any PIM and it handles that. Unlike other features, like linking, I find my information to be categorized at the core, and it worries me that I'd have to tie myself into only one solution on a platform.

That said, if I ever switch back to Palm this would be one of the first things I'd get.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

That would be like the PPC only allowing one category and Developer One's Agenda Fusion adding multiple category support. Locks me out from using Pocket Informant, or even the built in PIM apps.
I see you beat me to saying it. In fact, I don't use PI's hierarchical tasks features right now because I worry about the same problem there. I'm very, very glad the base Pocket PC PIM schema is close to Outlook -- it makes my life much easier.

BTW, I'd also like to see that schema evolve. Come on MS, release an Outlook with hierarchical task feature! Please? ;)

--janak

[c38b2]

All right here goes: Ed, Janak, and pretty much all other PPC advocates: Palm OS will NEVER fufill your needs. POS won't support multiple catagories for a while, and will probably NEVER truly multitask. Personally, I like the database filesystem and the Palm implementation of multitasking and I suspect that may Palm users will too. Messing with system threads is more than we want to do, but affords you the control that you feel you need over your system. Something people somehow aren't getting here is that POS is NOT emulating PPC! Should POS be bashed because it doesn't handle multiple categories? No! If you want categories, go PPC, as I suspect many of you have. While I'm not exactly comfortable with pdaisdead representing the Palm community, I will say that his presence here, however disruptive, has ultimately led to the quest for more information and the truth beyond what Ed perpetrated.

[felixdd]

Look, I (and most others) don't care how Palm goes about implementing it's usage of files because I can get the same result as I can on a PPC. Actually, probably better because it won't crash on me constantly.

As to GUI, I say why change it? It works perfectly. Spend $15 and get a third party if you think it's that bad.

Lastly: I yes, the "see, Palm is now implementing the features PPC's had forever" argument. Well, PPC never integrated those features in a truly functional manner. Maybe Palm is just smart enough to wait until they can EFFECTIVELY be integrated?

That's the thing, you're not arguing for the big picture. You're arguing for what you want. Everyone wants different things -- and they ought to. But it still doesn't change the fact that Palm boasted all that they were going to offer, and fell short of the mark. For example -- "why change the GUI?" Because they said they will. I'm sure everyone can still live with the old GUI -- but if you said you are going to change it, then you better keep your word and do it.

Furthermore, I don't see how having a different file system will cause more or less crashes. Apple has the same file system as MS does and they allegedly crash less. As does Linux. As does almost every other file system out there. The way that Palm put their words makes me think that the file system change is an inevitability. And hey, if you bash WM2003 because of its file structure, then you better get ready to bash PalmOS, because it's going to happen.

As well, what do you mean by "can't integrate them in a functional manner"? Functionality depends on the user, not on the OS. I wouldn't find a command-line interface "functional", while another guru would find it perfectly fine.

No one is zealot-ing in this thread except you and a few others, and even they know where to draw the line. Your arguments are biased at best, all based on subjective opinion. Hell you aren't even arguing against anyone -- no one said the OS is bad per se, just that they aren't delivering on their promise.

I read the palmsource forum and a few individuals are very disturbing there -- anything that wasn't changed they seem to say, "oh well, it didn't need changing anyway, so that's a non-issue." I fail to see how that justifies a lack of progress.

[Ed Hansberry]

All right here goes: Ed, Janak, and pretty much all other PPC advocates: Palm OS will NEVER fufill your needs. POS won't support multiple catagories for a while, and will probably NEVER truly multitask. Personally, I like the database filesystem and the Palm implementation of multitasking and I suspect that may Palm users will too. Messing with system threads is more than we want to do, but affords you the control that you feel you need over your system. Something people somehow aren't getting here is that POS is NOT emulating PPC! Should POS be bashed because it doesn't handle multiple categories? No! If you want categories, go PPC, as I suspect many of you have. While I'm not exactly comfortable with pdaisdead representing the Palm community, I will say that his presence here, however disruptive, has ultimately led to the quest for more information and the truth beyond what Ed perpetrated.
If PalmSource and palm apologists would say the same thing, I'd lay off. It is only when they keep harping that the high end devices match and exceed Pocket PC in usability, capability, zenness or whatever that I call them on it. :D

[Janak Parekh]

Something people somehow aren't getting here is that POS is NOT emulating PPC! Should POS be bashed because it doesn't handle multiple categories? No!
In addition to felixdd's post and Ed's post, how do you know that PalmOS is exactly what you want? I know for a fact that I'm not completely happy with PalmOS has, nor Pocket PC -- I'm looking for more -- and that's why I say it. For example, PalmOS devices weren't color for years and years, and many people said they didn't want color. But as soon as devices with color screens came out, everything changed.

I will say that his presence here, however disruptive, has ultimately led to the quest for more information and the truth beyond what Ed perpetrated.
Truth "beyond"? What exactly did Ed perpetrate that was wrong? What he said initially was true AFAICT, and he's pointing out that he doesn't agree with their approach. And neither does PalmSource, it seems -- why are they pointing out a new GUI will come out in a "later version of Cobalt", otherwise?

--janak

[c38b2]

Truth "beyond"? What exactly did Ed perpetrate that was wrong?
OS 6 still doesn't have true multitasking.
POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.

[felixdd]

Ah, it's nice to have a chat about the shortcomings of the Palm sans the namecalling and childish insults.


Indeed! :beer:

In any case, I said that I find the GUI not intuitive -- but that's because of me. I'm perfectly fine with other people like you loving it. It's all about diversity. Hell I can't even use Linux -- so it probably is because I'm too dense.

And for you, you like Hotsync. I don't -- I like to drag and drop files directly into the device, not press "sync" every time. I've never had problems with Activesync -- ever. And I've owned probably every form factor for CE there is -- HPC, PPC, PsPC, and now a smartphone. Nor have I experienced incessant crashing of the OS. It all depends on what you've experienced.

So no -- PalmOS isn't better than PPC. Neither is PPC is better than PalmOS. If you think that -- please, remember -- "apples and oranges" guys...it's just apples and oranges. Some people like oranges, some people like apples...doesn't mean one is better than the other!

Steve -- I'm kinda disappointed that pdaisdead is, well, dead (for now). I would've liked to see how he carried out his argument. But then again, it would have been too disruptive....

[Ed Hansberry]

Truth "beyond"? What exactly did Ed perpetrate that was wrong?
OS 6 still doesn't have true multitasking.
POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.
People said the same thing about OS4. :roll:
Open a contact form. Switch apps. Switch back. Form gone? That isn't multitasking.

[c38b2]

I'm sure everyone can still live with the old GUI -- but if you said you are going to change it, then you better keep your word and do it. ... Hell you aren't even arguing against anyone -- no one said the OS is bad per se, just that they aren't delivering on their promise.
Just so I know, what exactly did Palm promise?

And just as a general comment, no OS6 devices will come out for a few months. The GUI and other aspects of the OS may yet change - the simulator isn't even fully functioning yet! 8O The purpose of releasing it early is so that developers can get started on creating and testing OS6 programs - I expect the API to change relatively little from now to the final release.

[felixdd]

Truth "beyond"? What exactly did Ed perpetrate that was wrong?
OS 6 still doesn't have true multitasking.
POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.

I think the entire root of the argument lies in our perceived definition of "multitasking"....and if this is true, there really isn't anything to argue for because it's another "preference" thing.

But then again, I'm no guru, but I wouldn't be surprised if there is an actual definition for said term.

[felixdd]

Just so I know, what exactly did Palm promise?
Read what Slotnick said here,
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt


And just as a general comment, no OS6 devices will come out for a few months. The GUI and other aspects of the OS may yet change - the simulator isn't even fully functioning yet! 8O The purpose of releasing it early is so that developers can get started on creating and testing OS6 programs - I expect the API to change relatively little from now to the final release.

Hopefully the features will all be implemented by then! Maybe that's what he meant by the "next" version of Cobalt! This should provide some interesting competition!

[Janak Parekh]

POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.
So this is an interesting point. There is no "one" definition of multitasking. Ed is talking about it from a user's perspective. From a OS perspective, yes, Palm OS supports background threads and have done it for years. However, we disagree that is an effective approach.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Hopefully the features will all be implemented by then! Maybe that's what he meant by the "next" version of Cobalt! This should provide some interesting competition!
And I sure hope so! Palm OS needs to continue to improve, as does Pocket PC. Competition benefits the customer.

--janak

[c38b2]

People said the same thing about OS4. :roll:
Open a contact form. Switch apps. Switch back. Form gone? That isn't multitasking.
People did? 8O Well, I certainly didn't - but I'm saying now that Palm OS 6 has multitasking built in. It's designed to be used on programs that are written to require it. Not all programs need to multitask, and in order to maximize system resources POS6 allows developers to create background threads to do tasks like checking email, retaining an IM connection, etc. while doing other things.

Oh, by the way, I like how Palm OS closes an open contact record. To each their own I guess, but like I said, the reasons you give for POSs inferiority are matters of opinion.

[c38b2]

Read what Slotnick said here,
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Whats_Not_in_Cobalt
Hmm... I reread that and it doesn't mention anything about broken promises, but it does mention things that PalmSource is looking into for future versions (new GUI, file manager), but it "intends" to include these in future versions. I'm sure we can all understand if something just doesn't work out in the creation of a new GUI, file manager, etc. - these things happen. Remember how disappointed people were with WM2003 after they expected a plethora of new things?

[Christian]

Personally, I feel that the whole issue regarding multiple categories for contacts is being blown out of proportion. I understand that this feature is important for some users, and these users can invest in third-party applications to fill the void.

Would I rather this functionality were included in the core applications? Of course. Yet its absence is not nearly as unreasonable as requiring a third party application to launch my programs without menus or to add a close button to WM2003. Some users care about multiple categories, others (like myself) do not. But it seems to me that all users of PDAs launch programs and benefit from doing so quickly and easily.

All I'm saying is that these debates would be more productive IMHO if we did not restrict our focus to such small details - especially if these details are only important to certain users (many of whom already prefer PPCs).

[c38b2]

All I'm saying is that these debates would be more productive IMHO if we did not restrict our focus to such small details - especially if these details are only important to certain users (many of whom already prefer PPCs).
Exactly how I feel. Really, how many POS users complain about the 1-catagory limit? How many PPC users complain about the close button or ActiveSync? :wink:

[Christian]

All I'm saying is that these debates would be more productive IMHO if we did not restrict our focus to such small details - especially if these details are only important to certain users (many of whom already prefer PPCs).
Exactly how I feel. Really, how many POS users complain about the 1-catagory limit? How many PPC users complain about the close button or ActiveSync? :wink:
On this site? :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.
So this is an interesting point. There is no "one" definition of multitasking. Ed is talking about it from a user's perspective. From a OS perspective, yes, Palm OS supports background threads and have done it for years.
By that definition, DOS multitasked. It supported TSRs, it could make the cursor blink and would keep time for you.

[yslee]

In any case, I said that I find the GUI not intuitive -- but that's because of me. I'm perfectly fine with other people like you loving it. It's all about diversity. Hell I can't even use Linux -- so it probably is because I'm too dense.


I did say I have no problems with it, not everybody. I know there're people who prefer the PPC interface.

Linux isn't so bad now; KDE feels like Windows. Installing programs however..


And for you, you like Hotsync. I don't -- I like to drag and drop files directly into the device, not press "sync" every time. I've never had problems with Activesync -- ever. And I've owned probably every form factor for CE there is -- HPC, PPC, PsPC, and now a smartphone. Nor have I experienced incessant crashing of the OS. It all depends on what you've experienced.


Oh, I do that with a card reader instead. Hehe.

I think this is an important difference though, and to me it stems from the stupid inability to read native file formats. It's like a protective layer to prevent the user from loading up unusable files. I'm not sure if I'm getting this conceptual difference across though.

For me Activesync always refuses to sync after the third time. Don't ask me why. I've done everything, and it always does that. Need a reboot before it gets going again.

My iPAQ though has been very stable. Crashes as often as my Palm, which is, extremely infrequent.


So no -- PalmOS isn't better than PPC. Neither is PPC is better than PalmOS. If you think that -- please, remember -- "apples and oranges" guys...it's just apples and oranges. Some people like oranges, some people like apples...doesn't mean one is better than the other!


I think so too! Which is why I don't really like to see bashing from either side; they're tools, it's all dependent on how someone uses them. At the end of the day we should be happy we have these devices that make our life easier!


Steve -- I'm kinda disappointed that pdaisdead is, well, dead (for now). I would've liked to see how he carried out his argument. But then again, it would have been too disruptive....

I'm also disappointed, but for entirely different reasons. :twisted:

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh, by the way, I like how Palm OS closes an open contact record.
Really? Scenario:

1) You are on editing an existing contact and have made a mistake or decide not to save the changes. As you are in that 1.2 seconds of pondering, the phone rings and you pick it up. "What are you doing tomorrow at 2pm?" Press the calendar button. Contact form closes. Did it save the data or not? If not, that is fine. If so, nasty.

2) You are creating a new contact and are about 70% through with it, the phone rings and you pick it up. "What are you doing tomorrow at 2pm?" Press the calendar button. Contact form closes. Did it save the data or not? If so, cool. If not, that is nasty.

No thanks. I'll take user choice over machine choice any day.

[Janak Parekh]

By that definition, DOS multitasked. It supported TSRs, it could make the cursor blink and would keep time for you.
So that is a really interesting point. :D DOS multitasked in the sense of it wouldn't stop programs from running in the background, but the programs would have to do everything, and if anyone remembers, Sidekick used to conflict with a ton of programs. PalmOS 3.x, which is the last version I had programmed on, at least had some basic API calls for background threads, but not a whole lot -- and it was prone to instabilities if poorly coded. I'd assume PalmOS 6 has a richer API and some memory protection, but I haven't done enough research to say.

Overall, I agree with you -- almost every other OS on the market today, for both PDAs and desktops, supports multitasking intrinsically in the UI, and Palm should as well.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Really, how many POS users complain about the 1-catagory limit? How many PPC users complain about the close button or ActiveSync? :wink:
Actually, I've seen a lot of both complaints over the years. The irony is, I see things the opposite way. A true close button is easily obtainable via third-party utility. Having categories on the base schema, OTOH, is a lot more important IMHO.

--janak

[Jonathan1]

More bashing. :roll: At this rate I won't be suprised to see Partita/Inktoo/Ska's postings on the front page.

yslee, if there wasn't legit cause for bashing you wouldn't see it. Fact of the matter is OS6 was suppose to bring Palm OS up to par with the Pocket PC and at the end of the day it starting to look like it will fall drastically short.

Ummm....OS 5.0 is ahead of PPC in mine and the majority's opinion. Otherwise, why would more of us purchase it than PPC?

I would take a look at those figures. They are dropping fast.

[wigglesworth]

pdaisdead may have some valid points, but I don’t know what they were, I’m having a hard time getting past their attitude.
Are we all that stupid not to be listening to you??? Please, show us the way of our errors!Right, nothing like calling your target audience stupid! I heard you loud and clear on that one! If your a representative of Palm I have to say that's a nice marketing move. :wink:
Ooohh...I'm terrified!! So, you'd rather be free to wallow in your own zealotry here? Sorry, but if you all sit around and say the same things and never get challenged, it still won't make them true.Ahhh...there's always someone like yourself in a thread like this. You know, the one that likes get self righteous with "why can't we all get along" comments. It's your chance to speak out and be a conscious for us all. Next time, save it
Pdaisdead, do you have something personal against Ed?
He's not alone, but he's certainly seen as the most rabid. This is one way you get one of those ridiculous "MVP" tags Microsoft hands out. Know your source.Look, everyone in the PDA website community knows what Hansberry's all about. He's not trying to help you or make your experience with your handheld necessarily better. He just wants to make sure your using Microsoft's OS and not Palm's. He's "evangelising". Even the people on this site know it. He gets called on it all the time, and not just by me
Questions for pdaisdead: why make comments like this? When you are also obviously evangelizing for palm?. I’d like to honestly know, do you work for palm? Or a subsidiary?, Do you own stock in palm? That you would come here and be so childish? Or do you love palm so much that you’re willing to expose your lack of respect and willingness to get along for the whole world to see?
As another poster mentioned, read the rest of the thread Einstein.I'll tell you what. You're using semantics and really on one source (some poster to a web board no less) to trash the OS. Sounds like FUD to me. You might want to get your facts in order first next time. Should we be surprised however that a post like this came from the likes of you?
Pdaisdead, if you’re this wound up about Palm vs Pocket Pc then I would rethink what is really important to you in your life. I love my pocketpc but it defiantly isn’t t the meaning of my life. I hope when you come back and read this that you can be mature enough to realize that this is not an attack on you, but try to show a bit of respect and then you may find that people will actually listen to your opinion.

[Christian]

The irony is, I see things the opposite way. A true close button is easily obtainable via third-party utility. Having categories on the base schema, OTOH, is a lot more important IMHO.

--janak
I agree with your assessment from a technical perspective. I was approaching the question from an HCI perspective. As far as I can tell anyway, the task of assigning multiple categories does not apply to many users while launching programs applies to everyone.

Regardless, reading these threads one could get the impression that the most important aspects of a handheld OS are redrawing background UI elements and assigning multiple categories to your contacts. When my Pocket PC hard resets itself spontaneously, ActiveSync randomly refuses to synchronize my documents and my Bluetooth connection can't seem to stay connected for more than 5 minutes, I think there are bigger fish to fry. :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

When my Pocket PC hard resets itself spontaneously, ActiveSync randomly refuses to synchronize my documents and my Bluetooth connection can't seem to stay connected for more than 5 minutes, I think there are bigger fish to fry. :wink:
True, but those threads don't generate over 7,500 views and 130 replies in less than 24 hours. :wink: :grinning devil:

[Christian]

True, but those threads don't generate over 7,500 views and 130 replies in less than 24 hours. :wink: :grinning devil:
Point taken - let the brawl continue :wink:

:splat:

[Mandrake]

Erm.. Who gives a toss? Surely you can just buy whichever pda you think is best? Use two if you want. Switch between them. It really doesn't matter.

It is interesting to see what "The Competition" are up to, but only because I might want to buy one of their products, which should keep MS on their toes if they want me to stay their customer.

[Steven Cedrone]

*"Partita" posts moved to HOF&S...

Steve

*Edit: I should have said "Particularly nasty Partita posts moved to HOF&S"

[Floodguy]

The reason I bought the Clie is more because Sony has a lot of interesting apps on this device (a really good Organizer, Decuma) and also the Picsel Document(PDF, DOC,XLS...) viewer is a must (have it on my WinCE 4.x device too, but no Pocket PC version yet). Also these Sony apps all support the full Clie screen size, what the native Palm OS doesn't.
:D

you do realize decuma is a PPC apps long before Sony started using it right?

also check clearvue. (not sure if it reads Japanese, but I think it does)

Yes, I know that. But in case of the Pocket PC, the japanese version is not official available yet, and I got it only, because I had a NTT DoCoMo Musea, so I could download it and used it. The download was time limited and it only runs on the Musea. I tried it on the Genio e400 but it doesn't run. So no Decuma and Picsel Viewer for the Pocket PC (NTT excluded) here in Japan.
:cry:

[Janak Parekh]

I agree with your assessment from a technical perspective. I was approaching the question from an HCI perspective. As far as I can tell anyway, the task of assigning multiple categories does not apply to many users while launching programs applies to everyone.
I don't know about that. I think this is a good topic for a poll, actually... maybe I'll run one tomorrow.

When my Pocket PC hard resets itself spontaneously, ActiveSync randomly refuses to synchronize my documents and my Bluetooth connection can't seem to stay connected for more than 5 minutes, I think there are bigger fish to fry. :wink:
Of course, I don't have any of those problems... ;)

--janak

[Scott R]

1) You are on editing an existing contact and have made a mistake or decide not to save the changes. As you are in that 1.2 seconds of pondering, the phone rings and you pick it up. "What are you doing tomorrow at 2pm?" Press the calendar button. Contact form closes. Did it save the data or not? If not, that is fine. If so, nasty.Yes, the Palm OS will save those changes. How often will it be the case that you've made changes but didn't want to save them? This isn't really a multitasking issue. The Palm OS assumes that changes you make will be saved. What do I mean? Well, there's no "Cancel" button when you're editing a contact, there's just a "Done" button. So if you make changes, you're going to be saving them, whether you click "Done" or you change applications via one of the hard buttons.

But wait a minute...how is the PPC any better/different here? I don't see a "Cancel" button when I'm editing a contact there, either.

2) You are creating a new contact and are about 70% through with it, the phone rings and you pick it up. "What are you doing tomorrow at 2pm?" Press the calendar button. Contact form closes. Did it save the data or not? If so, cool. If not, that is nasty.As with #1, yes, it will save the contact that you were in the process of adding.

Ed, you're really stretching here.

Scott

[mcsouth]

I will admit that I see Ed's point perfectly.

Try creating a contact in your Palm from an e-mail or note - you'd like to copy and paste the info into the appropriate fields, or at the very least, you need to view the info, switch to the contact form and fill in what you remember, switch back to view some more, switch back to fill in some more, etc, etc, etc......

I had more than one occasion on my Palm M505 where I was entering data, and wanted to switch to another app to get some info, but if I did, the record would be closed when I came back, and I would have to locate and open it again before I could continue editing. In my definition of multi-tasking, that doesn't fit.

Granted, multi-tasking can go too far the other way.....at least I have WIS Bar that allows me to quickly shut down all those apps that I forgot I had opened!!!!! Don't know why MS doesn't realize that over time, this just slows down the unit.

I will admit that after starting with Palm, and having owned several units before switching to PPC, I was really hoping for big things from Palm's OS6. If nothing else, the healthy competition has ways of spurring advances on all competing platforms, and I certainly thnk there are some things MS should address with PPC (sorry, WM2003 now). Having seen the various reports from (mostly) Palm OS sites, I have lost some faith that Palm will get to where THEY said they were going anytime soon.

I concur with Ed (burrrrrr, not sure I wanted to do that! ;) ), back in the days just prior to the OS4 release, the then-Palm OS president (Ed Yankcovich, or something? I forget...) made a lot of statements about what PDA users did and did not want. I'm sure that at the time he believed them, and that they probably came from some important market research that was done. And let's face it, what has traditionally been Palm's biggest volume units? The low end, $100 units fly off the shelves, because they lend themselves well to "impulse purchases", and are a cheap way to find out if a pda is something that you will actually use. A $400 iPaq is certainly not in the price range that makes it an impulse purchase for me!

I started with a $130 Palm IIIe to find out if it would replace my Franklin Planner - it did, and more. I quickly ran out of memory (2MB - oooohhhh!), and upgraded to a IIIxe, and then quickly to an M505, which I loved, even if the VFS support kinda sucked.... Shortly thereafter, I won an iPaq 3630 in a contest, used it side by side with the Palm for a few months, and finally sold the Palm. Today, the PPC has the best feature set for what I do, and I feel like I am making fewer compromises day to day. Any yes, contrary to what some people may believe, the PPC OS HAS matured significantly - while my iPaq3630 needed a soft reset every couple of days, I had to soft reset my iPaq 1945 for the first time after over 5 months of use - I am finding WM2003 to be a HUGE improvement in stability!

As others have mentioned, we have yet to see Palm's Cobalt in the real world, and the actual product reviews may prove that Palm knows what they are doing. I sure hope so, if for no other reason than to keep MS on their toes!

[juni]

Has anyone played around with the developer tools? I would like to see some screenshots of it...since how an OS looks is important to me. :)

[Fishie]

Truth "beyond"? What exactly did Ed perpetrate that was wrong?
OS 6 still doesn't have true multitasking.
POS6 does have multitasking - it's just different than PPCs version.

NO...IT...DOES...NOT.

The programs specificaly have to be written to play nice in the background, if they are not they get terminated completely instead of partialy.

[Fishie]

The reason I bought the Clie is more because Sony has a lot of interesting apps on this device (a really good Organizer, Decuma) and also the Picsel Document(PDF, DOC,XLS...) viewer is a must (have it on my WinCE 4.x device too, but no Pocket PC version yet). Also these Sony apps all support the full Clie screen size, what the native Palm OS doesn't.
:D

you do realize decuma is a PPC apps long before Sony started using it right?

also check clearvue. (not sure if it reads Japanese, but I think it does)

Yes, I know that. But in case of the Pocket PC, the japanese version is not official available yet, and I got it only, because I had a NTT DoCoMo Musea, so I could download it and used it. The download was time limited and it only runs on the Musea. I tried it on the Genio e400 but it doesn't run. So no Decuma and Picsel Viewer for the Pocket PC (NTT excluded) here in Japan.
:cry:

Sigmarion3 has it built in.

Kicks mayor hiney.

[Floodguy]

The reason I bought the Clie is more because Sony has a lot of interesting apps on this device (a really good Organizer, Decuma) and also the Picsel Document(PDF, DOC,XLS...) viewer is a must (have it on my WinCE 4.x device too, but no Pocket PC version yet). Also these Sony apps all support the full Clie screen size, what the native Palm OS doesn't.
:D

you do realize decuma is a PPC apps long before Sony started using it right?

also check clearvue. (not sure if it reads Japanese, but I think it does)

Yes, I know that. But in case of the Pocket PC, the japanese version is not official available yet, and I got it only, because I had a NTT DoCoMo Musea, so I could download it and used it. The download was time limited and it only runs on the Musea. I tried it on the Genio e400 but it doesn't run. So no Decuma and Picsel Viewer for the Pocket PC (NTT excluded) here in Japan.
:cry:

Sigmarion3 has it built in.

Kicks mayor hiney.

Fishie,
Yeah, you're! I have one! Great stuff this Picselviewer! Better than Adobe's own Reader itself! SIG3 rocks! More games for SIG3 please!
:lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

But wait a minute...how is the PPC any better/different here? I don't see a "Cancel" button when I'm editing a contact there, either.
Built in, you are right. With a third party task switcher you can kill the form though without saving the changes. I don't see how any third party addition to Palm will save you though unless you kill it before you press the calendar button in my scenario. The Pocket PC is a truely multitasking OS so it keeps the form open an unsaved until you close it, kill it or soft reset.

2) You are creating a new contact and are about 70% through with it, the phone rings and you pick it up. "What are you doing tomorrow at 2pm?" Press the calendar button. Contact form closes. Did it save the data or not? If so, cool. If not, that is nasty.As with #1, yes, it will save the contact that you were in the process of adding.

Ed, you're really stretching here.No, this happens to me all of the time. I'll be in the middle of something and have some form open. Contacts, a item in Pocket MindMap, a Word document, etc. and I am always getting interrupted. See, as a person in a company I have to muiltitask. I expect my employees to be able to do that. I expect my computing equipment to do that too. Even my phone multitasks.

[cscullion]

I really hate to put a damper on this fun argument, but have any of you actually run the new Coblat Simulator?

The built-in PIM apps now DO SUPPORT MULTIPLE CATEGORIES. Sorry to burst any bubbles :)

[Ed Hansberry]

I have found definitive answers to multitasking in PalmOS (http://www.waitallday.com/) and when it is expected.

[Ed Hansberry]

I really hate to put a damper on this fun argument, but have any of you actually run the new Coblat Simulator?

The built-in PIM apps now DO SUPPORT MULTIPLE CATEGORIES. Sorry to burst any bubbles :)
Thanks for the confirm. Shame so many in here will not enjoy it as they have said it is not necessary. :roll:

[Mitch D]

I have found definitive answers to multitasking in PalmOS (http://www.waitallday.com/) and when it is expected.

:rofl: Ed that is too dang funny... thanks for the laugh this morning.

[Christian]

I have found definitive answers to multitasking in PalmOS (http://www.waitallday.com/) and when it is expected.
:rotfl:

[acronym]

you know, ed, as a so-called editor - you should act a bit more professional and unbiased.

I find myself using this site less and less....

[Ed Hansberry]

you know, ed, as a so-called editor - you should act a bit more professional and unbiased.

I find myself using this site less and less....
To each his own.

1. I am not a journalist.
2. This is a Pocket PC site. We are biased by definition.
3. One of the things that, IMHO, makes this site great is that it goes way beyond just news blurbs. Jason has built a fantastic team and community by letting the editors stretch out a bit.

You can always filter out "The Competition" from your view since that is where most of these discussions happen.

[Wiggin]

:jester: :rainbowafro: :rofl:
Ed, once again... you have found a hidden nugget. Very entertaining!
As an aside, I had to walk away from the computer for 30 mins after opening the link... upon my return... the load status was STILL cycling through unique items... :rotfl:
Thx for the laugh!

[Deslock]

Wow... so many things wrong with this story and thread:

1) Palm's multitasking may be limited, but PPC's isn't anything to write home about. The Win32 multitasking model is pretty crappy to begin with, nevermind PPC's thread limitations and lack of a close button. Palm's approach may actually end up being less problematic.

2) Then there's this:
When my Pocket PC hard resets itself spontaneously, ActiveSync randomly refuses to synchronize my documents and my Bluetooth connection can't seem to stay connected for more than 5 minutes, I think there are bigger fish to fry. :wink:
True, but those threads don't generate over 7,500 views and 130 replies in less than 24 hours. :wink: :grinning devil:
If that's your goal, you've demonstrated several times that the best way to reach it is by posting sensationalistic (and sometimes inaccurate) stories with lots of spin.

3) But the best is this:
I really hate to put a damper on this fun argument, but have any of you actually run the new Coblat Simulator?

The built-in PIM apps now DO SUPPORT MULTIPLE CATEGORIES. Sorry to burst any bubbles :)
Thanks for the confirm. Shame so many in here will not enjoy it as they have said it is not necessary. :roll:
Personally, I don't think that ppcthoughts going "way beyond just news blurbs" (as you put it) excuses posting a story that perpetuates something completely untrue. More to the point, all you give us is a witty retort? No apology? No correction? Well, why start now I suppose...

[Ed Hansberry]

3) But the best is this:
I really hate to put a damper on this fun argument, but have any of you actually run the new Coblat Simulator?

The built-in PIM apps now DO SUPPORT MULTIPLE CATEGORIES. Sorry to burst any bubbles :)
Thanks for the confirm. Shame so many in here will not enjoy it as they have said it is not necessary. :roll:
Personally, I don't think that ppcthoughts going "way beyond just news blurbs" (as you put it) excuses posting a story that perpetuates something completely untrue. More to the point, all you give us is a witty retort? No apology? No correction? Well, why start now I suppose...
Please explain what is inaccurate about this line:It has also been reported that OS 6 still doesn't allow you to assign more than one category to a record.

[guinness]

you know, ed, as a so-called editor - you should act a bit more professional and unbiased.

I find myself using this site less and less....

He's really not much worse than any of the other admins for other sites, (Cliesource and PalmInfoCenter come to mind). Although Ed from Brighthand seems pretty fair and balanced, even though he's a POS user. If it wasn't for the POS vs. PPC debates, most of the POS and PPC sites wouldn't be half as entertaining to read, just because of the FUD that gets tossed back and forth.

[cdunphy]

This thread has been full of a lot of half-truths and confusion, so I am hesitant to even jump in here....

But, perhaps I can shed some light (and not flames) on some of the core issues...

PalmOS and Pocket PC are based around fundamentally different design paradigms, and these differences continue into the Cobalt world.

The Pocket PC model is very much a "PC" model - and the way multitasking and file management works is very similar to how it works on a desktop PC.

PalmOS was designed from the begining around the premise that a handheld is fundamentally NOT like a PC - and that there are better ways to go about doing things that are more suitable for a mobile device.

Every user needs to decide which paradigm works best for them. There are advantages to each. And it is of course not surprising that most PPC Thoughts readers like the PC-style paradigm... (and most "average" users out in the world have shown a consistent preference for PalmOS)

Anyway -- Palm OS Cobalt is very much a multi-tasking and multi-threading operating system, and it will be very easy for developers to take advantage of this. But - the PalmOS paradigm maintains that on a small-screened mobile device, there is only ONE foreground task running at any one time. This is by design. And it makes a lot of sense on memory and CPU constrained devices.

Finally, I'd like to share with you some examples of multi-tasking today on Palm OS 5....

This week at 3GSM I was showing off the following on my Treo 600, all running at once:

+ Listening to a Shoutcast MP3 radio station STREAMED over GPRS via Pocket Tunes.
+ Participating in MSN, YIM, AIM, and ICQ chat sessions via VeriChat.
+ Downloading email in the background.
+ Running the RTS strategy game Warfare Inc. (which saves state perfectly when switched away from, so it might as well be running in the background...)
+ Answering incoming phone calls, and recieving SMS messages...
+ And doing whatever else I want in the foreground...


Yes - I admit that multi-tasking on OS 5 is not as elegant as it will be on Palm OS Cobalt. And both of them go about it in a way very different than the Pocket PC. But even today you can do a lot of what most users want multitasking for... And it will only be getting better in the future.

- chris

[Deslock]

Please explain what is inaccurate about this line:It has also been reported that OS 6 still doesn't allow you to assign more than one category to a record.
I didn't write that it's inaccurate; I wrote that it perpetuates something completely untrue (which it does). But my beef is really with the fact that you didn't post a clarification when someone told you about it (and you still haven't). Way to spread misinformation, Ed.

[c38b2]

By the way Ed, killing the program does not discard the changes. The unit must be soft reset to avoid saving the changes (same as with a Palm).

cdunphy, I suggest creating an option to save where you were in editing a contact so Ed will have nothing to complain about. :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

By the way Ed, killing the program does not discard the changes. The unit must be soft reset to avoid saving the changes (same as with a Palm).
Nope. Just tested it. Opened a form, changed the name, killed it with Pocket Plus, reopened Contacts and that form and my changes weren't there.

Never really paid attention to it. The PPC has multiple undo levels, so you can hose the form and undo until it is back to the way you had it without the need for a task killer. So in my scenario, the PPC will allow you to get back to the original without a third party app or the 7 step kill the app process built in.

[c38b2]

I killed it using both my Toshiba's home menu and the standard memory "stop" button - both saved data. Will try Pocket Plus... what OS did you use? WM2003? (I used PPC 2002)

[Chairman Clench]

PalmOS continually gets bashed on PPC sites for not implementing "advanced" features like multi-tasking and multiple categories (although it seems both of these are in fact in Cobalt).

What I find really amusing is that we aren't spending nearly as much time bashing the PPC platform for not consistently performing one of the most BASIC functions of a PDA: reliably sounding reminders and alarms on time. This bug has existed since PPC2000, was not fixed in PPC2002, and is STILL not fixed in WM2003.

Call me crazy, but I'll take the "less advanced" OS that consistently provides functionality I use EVERYDAY instead of one that provides "advanced" features at the expense of failing for the last 4 years to consistently perform one of the most basic functions of a PDA.

The bottom line here is that each person needs to make their own decision. I decided that I couldn't deal with unreliable alarms and reminders so I went back to Palm. For others, they need a PPC. It is a personal choice.

[nimbus]

This thread has been full of a lot of half-truths and confusion, so I am hesitant to even jump in here....

PalmOS and Pocket PC are based around fundamentally different design paradigms, and these differences continue into the Cobalt world.

not this paradigm stuff again.


The Pocket PC model is very much a "PC" model - and the way multitasking and file management works is very similar to how it works on a desktop PC.

PalmOS was designed from the begining around the premise that a handheld is fundamentally NOT like a PC - and that there are better ways to go about doing things that are more suitable for a mobile device.

haven't we heard THAT before. (lesse what you guys have been saying about what handheld premise suppose to be, and what activities are not suitable for mobile devices: color, full office suits, audio, multimedia, multitasking, elaborate file handling ...

How about this: if you guys later add a bundled file utility on Colbalt 2.0, just like you guys add a media player on Cobalt or multimedia capability in OS 5.0. You close your shop and put PPC on your next hardware release? Or at least please eat your hat or something.


Every user needs to decide which paradigm works best for them. There are advantages to each. And it is of course not surprising that most PPC Thoughts readers like the PC-style paradigm... (and most "average" users out in the world have shown a consistent preference for PalmOS)

here is a 'paradigm' you might learn. Give the feature, and let user chose if they want to use it or not. QUIT dictating user what a handheld suppose to do or not suppose to do. (eg. built in file utility, if user doesn't want to use it. Fine. If developer decide to include their own file browser. Fine)

"average user"? is that the 38% and down...average user?


Anyway -- Palm OS Cobalt is very much a multi-tasking and multi-threading operating system, and it will be very easy for developers to take advantage of this. But - the PalmOS paradigm maintains that on a small-screened mobile device, there is only ONE foreground task running at any one time. This is by design. And it makes a lot of sense on memory and CPU constrained devices.

The palm OS paradigm is 'gipper does it best'. Cut corner, less feature, more marketing spin and sell cheap organizer while it can, never to add feature until loosing another 10% marketshare.

-not including bundled office apps? (lost 10% marketshare) add office apps suit
-not including color screen (lost 10% marketshare) add color screen
-no multimedia capability (lost 10% marketshare) add multimedia



Finally, I'd like to share with you some examples of multi-tasking today on Palm OS 5....

This week at 3GSM I was showing off the following on my Treo 600, all running at once:

+ Listening to a Shoutcast MP3 radio station STREAMED over GPRS via Pocket Tunes.
+ Participating in MSN, YIM, AIM, and ICQ chat sessions via VeriChat.
+ Downloading email in the background.
+ Running the RTS strategy game Warfare Inc. (which saves state perfectly when switched away from, so it might as well be running in the background...)
+ Answering incoming phone calls, and recieving SMS messages...
+ And doing whatever else I want in the foreground...

lol, is that with or without the treo 600 crashing? No wonder that junk can't pass Verizone qualification test.

one thing you forgot to mention: verichat, pTunes and two other apps are just about the only half dozen or so apps that can run on the backround with OS 5.0.

How about exchanging NESem for warfare inc. in scenario above? would that be still possible? NESem doesn't have save state, btw. How about hotsync in the background while still being able to use the device? ...oooppsss..

okay lesse what XDAII can do on the forground/background
-using WiFi doing a Video conferencing.
-Copy paste a web page, attach audio recording message and email it to the person on the other end.
-pop up little calculator while chatting on the video conferencing.
-incoming call? no problemo...

-warfare inc? how very 90's. Not only it has PPC port and half a notch less fun than AoE, but most people play SNES for show off piece, if not FPCE. Maybe someone should try to 'compile either nethack or quake from source code using pocketGCC and play the game afterward all using XDAII' just for a show then ask 'can your cute treo 600 thumboard do that?)


Yes - I admit that multi-tasking on OS 5 is not as elegant as it will be on Palm OS Cobalt. And both of them go about it in a way very different than the Pocket PC. But even today you can do a lot of what most users want multitasking for... And it will only be getting better in the future.


yeah and DOS is a multitasking OS with TSR.

anyway, I can't wait until you eat your underwear and add file utilities ala Zlauncher/Yishow or what not. Shall we set a dat for second half of 2005? I'll bring ketchup.

[billbuckner]

Whoops... POS6 does do multiple catigories, but the feature is quite hard to find.

[Ed Hansberry]

I killed it using both my Toshiba's home menu and the standard memory "stop" button - both saved data. Will try Pocket Plus... what OS did you use? WM2003? (I used PPC 2002)
2003.

Did 2002 have UNDO available from the Edit menu in the form? I don't recall.

[Ed Hansberry]

Whoops... POS6 does do multiple catigories, but the feature is quite hard to find.
Hard to find? How so?

[c38b2]

haven't we heard THAT before. (lesse what you guys have been saying about what handheld premise suppose to be, and what activities are not suitable for mobile devices: color, full office suits, audio, multimedia, multitasking, elaborate file handling ...

How about this: if you guys later add a bundled file utility on Colbalt 2.0, just like you guys add a media player on Cobalt or multimedia capability in OS 5.0. You close your shop and put PPC on your next hardware release? Or at least please eat your hat or something.
PalmSource is just the software, not the hardware, of Palm. Second, I believe what Palm has believed about mobile devices - they need to do just what I need. Added features add complexity and instability - it's a fact of life. Palm's paradigm is to add features when they are called for my the market and can be added without too much taxation on existing resources.

here is a 'paradigm' you might learn. Give the feature, and let user chose if they want to use it or not. QUIT dictating user what a handheld suppose to do or not suppose to do. (eg. built in file utility, if user doesn't want to use it. Fine. If developer decide to include their own file browser. Fine)

"average user"? is that the 38% and down...average user?
As said eariler, adding unnecisary and unneded features bogs down the system and leads it towards potential instability. Besides, if users really want powerful (I hesitate to use that word) features, they should choose PPC. That's the philosophy.

The palm OS paradigm is 'gipper does it best'. Cut corner, less feature, more marketing spin and sell cheap organizer while it can, never to add feature until loosing another 10% marketshare.

-not including bundled office apps? (lost 10% marketshare) add office apps suit
-not including color screen (lost 10% marketshare) add color screen
-no multimedia capability (lost 10% marketshare) add multimedia
And why not? I applaud a company that listens to users and market share and tries to improve. Besides, many of these features were planned before losses in marketshare.


lol, is that with or without the treo 600 crashing? No wonder that junk can't pass Verizone qualification test.

one thing you forgot to mention: verichat, pTunes and two other apps are just about the only half dozen or so apps that can run on the backround with OS 5.0.

How about exchanging NESem for warfare inc. in scenario above? would that be still possible? NESem doesn't have save state, btw. How about hotsync in the background while still being able to use the device? ...oooppsss..

okay lesse what XDAII can do on the forground/background
-using WiFi doing a Video conferencing.
-Copy paste a web page, attach audio recording message and email it to the person on the other end.
-pop up little calculator while chatting on the video conferencing.
-incoming call? no problemo...

-warfare inc? how very 90's not only it has PPC port and half a notch less fun than AoE, but most people play SNES for show off piece, if not FPCE.

no crashing there.
I would be surprised if a PPC had the stability to download a file, play a complex game, and take a call all at the same time. Sure it could be done, but any hickup could cause a slowdown or potentially a lockup.

yeah and DOS is a multitasking OS with TSR.

anyway, I can't wait until you eat your underwear and add file utilities ala Zlauncher/Yishow or what not. Shall we set a dat for second half of 2005? I'll bring ketchup.
This part doesn't make much sense to me. Please clarify what you said...

[c38b2]

Whoops... POS6 does do multiple catigories, but the feature is quite hard to find.
Hard to find? How so?
Where you select the category you want it in you select "Multiple". It's not that hard if you know it's there but because there was no apparent difference I guess I kind of glossed it over.

Yes it does have 'undo' Ed. I'm going to install Pocket Plus and test that.
EDIT: You are correct - Pocket Plus does terminate without saving. Perhaps the other methods send the "close" command to the program whilst PPlus just ends the process? It's just a guess but it makes sense to me.

[nimbus]

As said eariler, adding unnecisary and unneded features bogs down the system and leads it towards potential instability. Besides, if users really want powerful (I hesitate to use that word) features, they should choose PPC. That's the philosophy.

comparing from POS and PPC marketshare rate of change? nice philosophy I must say.

[c38b2]

As said eariler, adding unnecisary and unneded features bogs down the system and leads it towards potential instability. Besides, if users really want powerful (I hesitate to use that word) features, they should choose PPC. That's the philosophy.

comparing from POS and PPC marketshare rate of change? nice philosophy I must say.
I think that we will see a fluctuation back to Palm. I think this is because features are a major drawing factor that induces the switch from Palm to PPC. This compells people to see the process as an upgrade. When both platoforms have the same capable potential, the emphasis will wane on the feature gap and people will either stay with Palm for compatability or switch to Palm for stability.

[Ed Hansberry]

PalmSource is just the software, not the hardware, of Palm. Second, I believe what Palm has believed about mobile devices - they need to do just what I need. Added features add complexity and instability - it's a fact of life. Palm's paradigm is to add features when they are called for my the market and can be added without too much taxation on existing resources.
Oh come on. Palm was behind in music abilities - so much so Sony rolled their own. They were behind in storage card - the M50x series were the last PDAs on planet earth to get storage card/card expansion, yet the first from the Palm duo that existed at that time. They were the last with a decent color screen, and the Palm IIIc wasn't exactly an early bird on the scene. They were the last with 2MB/4MB/8MB/16MB/32MB - Pick your RAM size and year and Palm was there last. They were the last to break out of the 160X160 block screen. Palm delivers when they are forced to when their devices start lagging. See Palm's share since inception. They have gone from 80+% of the market to under 40%.
on multitasking...
How about hotsync in the background while still being able to use the device? ...oooppsss..Is that still a limitation?

[Ed Hansberry]

Whoops... POS6 does do multiple catigories, but the feature is quite hard to find.
Hard to find? How so?
Where you select the category you want it in you select "Multiple". It's not that hard if you know it's there but because there was no apparent difference I guess I kind of glossed it over.
So, instead of a checkbox form to select multiple categories, you have to open another form to do multiple selections? Zentastic!
Yes it does have 'undo' Ed. I'm going to install Pocket Plus and test that.
EDIT: You are correct - Pocket Plus does terminate without saving. Perhaps the other methods send the "close" command to the program whilst PPlus just ends the process? It's just a guess but it makes sense to me.Could be. There are multiple ways to "kill" a process. PP may be shooting it an unfriendly or abrupt kill whereas the built in utility may send it a save-all-and-close type kill.

[c38b2]

Oh come on. Palm was behind in music abilities - so much so Sony rolled their own. They were behind in storage card - the M50x series were the last PDAs on planet earth to get storage card/card expansion, yet the first from the Palm duo that existed at that time. They were the last with a decent color screen, and the Palm IIIc wasn't exactly an early bird on the scene. They were the last with 2MB/4MB/8MB/16MB/32MB - Pick your RAM size and year and Palm was there last. They were the last to break out of the 160X160 block screen. Palm delivers when they are forced to when their devices start lagging. See Palm's share since inception. They have gone from 80+% of the market to under 40%.
OK fine, they have adapted to the market. How much has Microsoft?

on multitasking...
How about hotsync in the background while still being able to use the device? ...oooppsss..Is that still a limitation?
If you want to call it that. I think most of the errors of ActiveSync is in the 'Active' part. Palms essentially preserve the state of both your computer and handheld and sync. Once synchronization has completed, both devices are useable again. Somehow I don't find this difficult to live with given the stability of HotSync.

[nimbus]

they have adapted to the market

if you call that market adaptation, then Dodo bird is the winner of survival of the fittest.

[c38b2]

they have adapted to the market

if you call that market adaptation, then Dodo bird is the winner of survival of the fittest.
Explain. Palm is not extinct! 8O

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh come on. Palm was behind in music abilities - so much so Sony rolled their own. They were behind in storage card - the M50x series were the last PDAs on planet earth to get storage card/card expansion, yet the first from the Palm duo that existed at that time. They were the last with a decent color screen, and the Palm IIIc wasn't exactly an early bird on the scene. They were the last with 2MB/4MB/8MB/16MB/32MB - Pick your RAM size and year and Palm was there last. They were the last to break out of the 160X160 block screen. Palm delivers when they are forced to when their devices start lagging. See Palm's share since inception. They have gone from 80+% of the market to under 40%.
OK fine, they have adapted to the market. How much has Microsoft?Uhm... everything up there, plus IM, Terminal Server client, ever increasing RAM, forthcoming high-res/landscape resolution, voice recording, VPN support, POP3/IMAP4 in every device, etc. There are some PalmOS devices that can do some that. There is NO PalmOS device that does everything that every single Pocket PC is capable of right out of the box.

But now that you mention it. MS hasn't adapted much. They have pushed. They pushed some of this in 1999-2001 when it wasn't being demanded, when Palm was saying it was no good in a handheld.

There is still stuff I'd like to see in a handheld and lots of areas the PPC can stand to have improved. People talk about all of the wonderful innovation in PalmOS devices. It is bolt on innovation that is not standard across the platform. It is killing developers. How many screen resolutions do you have to write for now because there is still no (up until OS6) standard hi-res API? OS 6 still doesn't deliver landscape support internally, so if PalmOne, Sony and Samsung implement it differently, software developers will have to contend with each one. And the physical act of switching to landscape can be different on each device too depending on the OEM preference.

PalmOS only fosters "innovation" because their OS has been so anemic that OEMs had to do something to make the consumer want it.

[huangzhinong]

If you want to call it that. I think most of the errors of ActiveSync is in the 'Active' part. Palms essentially preserve the state of both your computer and handheld and sync. Once synchronization has completed, both devices are useable again. Somehow I don't find this difficult to live with given the stability of HotSync.

For Palm users, it is very difficult to understand that hotsync should be background thread and should be always on. In PPC, Once PPC is syncing, you can treat the mobile device like a disk, adding, removing and editing documents and files. You can sulf internet once your desktop is online. Most important, a lot of games are designed to be multiple playable via activesync, such as a lot of online cards, chess, snails and mini-jetflight, check handango to see the network games. In other words, Activesync provide an alternative method to go online for some PPC without network card, no matter wireless or not.

[nimbus]

they have adapted to the market
if you call that market adaptation, then Dodo bird is the winner of survival of the fittest.
Explain. Palm is not extinct! 8O

and that's not market adaptation.

[c38b2]

if you call that market adaptation, then Dodo bird is the winner of survival of the fittest.
Explain. Palm is not extinct! 8O

and that's not market adaptation.
Palm has gone from a 2mb 160x160 greyscale 2-AAA 16-MHz device to a 64MB 320x480 16-bit color rechargeable 400-MHzdevice in 3 years. PPC has merely upped the RAM and processor speed. Palm adapts more.

[nimbus]

Palm has gone from a 2mb 160x160 greyscale 2-AAA 16-MHz device to a 64MB 320x480 16-bit color rechargeable 400-MHzdevice in 3 years. PPC has merely upped the RAM and processor speed. Palm adapts more.

CE has undergone 4 kernels and 4 CPUS.

PPC is the first to adopt color screen, SD, CF, BT, WiFi, replaceable/rechargable battery, ARM processor, 2D accelerator, VGA, etc and consistently incorporate the latest technology.

now while you think Cobalt with multitasking is the cutting edge handheld, PPC already adding new voice api, planning to add game api, networking features etc. In the hardware side, it will be the first to adopt 3D accelerator.

wanna come back 2 months from now and compare what POS has against Asus A730? I'll show you what market evolution is about.

In the meantime you can call that 'stretch screen' and 'mickey mouse multitasking' some sort of innovations.

[nimbus]

How about Blast from the past to illustrate Palm so called 'innovation'?

"He's openly proud of Palm's 68% market share and its place as an icon in 21st century culture, as well he should be. He attributes Palm's success to three things: a sophisticated yet simple user experience, transparent technology (of which he says has "nothing to do with putting a PC in your pocket") and the Palm economy, its loyal following of third-party developers.

He's openly proud of Palm's 68% market share and its place as an icon in 21st century culture, as well he should be. He attributes Palm's success to three things: a sophisticated yet simple user experience, transparent technology (of which he says has "nothing to do with putting a PC in your pocket") and the Palm economy, its loyal following of third-party developers. "
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_Epiphany?site=Palm


Dang, I miss that guy. He was such a fun source of endless humor. Now that's entertainment.

[Ed Hansberry]

Palm has gone from a 2mb 160x160 greyscale 2-AAA 16-MHz device to a 64MB 320x480 16-bit color rechargeable 400-MHzdevice in 3 years. PPC has merely upped the RAM and processor speed. Palm adapts more.
That is flawed logic. If you go from a match stick to a one bedroom cabin, you may have "adapted" more than going from a 20 room mansion to a royal palace, but I'll take the latter any day.

[c38b2]

CE has undergone 4 kernels and 4 CPUS.
That's CE - and did that really happen in the past 3 years?

PPC is the first to adopt color screen, SD, CF, BT, WiFi, replaceable/rechargable battery, ARM processor, 2D accelerator, VGA, etc and consistently incorporate the latest technology.
First adoption is not necessarily adapting to the market. PPC incorporated all these so it would have a leg up hardwarewise from Palm.

now while you think Cobalt with multitasking is the cutting edge handheld, PPC already adding new voice api, planning to add game api, networking features etc. In the hardware side, it will be the first to adopt 3D accelerator.

wanna come back 2 months from now and compare what POS has against Asus A730? I'll show you what market evolution is about.

In the meantime you can call that 'stretch screen' and 'mickey mouse multitasking' some sort of innovations.
I never said anything was cutting edge. I never said anything was innovation. I am talking about what I need, what I want, and the comfortable range in the middle (Palm). I personally like the version of multitasking that OS6 will provide. I won't have to worry about free memory because of running programs, nor will I have to worry about killing tasks when I don't need them. That kind of micromanagement might be what you desire on your PPC but I would rather not deal with all that nonsense. :wink:

[bdeli]

It is always interesting to note that we always get some users registering specifically to bash either side. Today we have nimbus - a month ago in PalmSource: "Yeah, Microsoft Has The Right Strategy!" (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24051) we had partita and goofrider.

Makes me wonder.... :roll:

[c38b2]

Palm has gone from a 2mb 160x160 greyscale 2-AAA 16-MHz device to a 64MB 320x480 16-bit color rechargeable 400-MHzdevice in 3 years. PPC has merely upped the RAM and processor speed. Palm adapts more.
That is flawed logic. If you go from a match stick to a one bedroom cabin, you may have "adapted" more than going from a 20 room mansion to a royal palace, but I'll take the latter any day.
Imagine if your palace had holes in the roof and kept loosing power. The only thing that's keeping Palm alive is Microsoft's inability to make a PPC that people can trust. Too many times have I pulled my PPC out of my pocket dead or self-hard-reset. Too many times must I fiiddle with it just to input or extract data. Sure, a palace is nice, but too many quirks and you start missing that safe, reliable cabin. :wink:

[nimbus]

CE has undergone 4 kernels and 4 CPUS.
That's CE - and did that really happen in the past 3 years?

2.0, 3.0, 3.2 and 4.2? what has POS done? 4.2 and 5.0? oh wow..


First adoption is not necessarily adapting to the market. PPC incorporated all these so it would have a leg up hardwarewise from Palm.

oh so now trailing behind is being innovative? in Palm-land maybe.


I never said anything was cutting edge. I never said anything was innovation. I am talking about what I need, what I want, and the comfortable range in the middle (Palm).
back peddling already? that was fast. Next thing I know I'll hear, all what one needs in PDA is organizer and simplicity.


I personally like the version of multitasking that OS6 will provide. I won't have to worry about free memory because of running programs, nor will I have to worry about killing tasks when I don't need them. That kind of micromanagement might be what you desire on your PPC but I would rather not deal with all that nonsense. :wink:

why don't we wait until Cobalt comes out in a real product, then we decide if you like it or not. Just like we decided if people like that 'it's bright enough' m505 screen. As of now, you don't even know what multi-tasking on handheld is about, let alone decide if you like Cobalt implementation or not.

How about this: if you instal a task manager on your Cobalt handheld, you'll eat your underwear. deal? I'll bring ketchup. Shall we say around late November this year?

[nimbus]

Imagine if your palace had holes in the roof and kept loosing power. The only thing that's keeping Palm alive is Microsoft's inability to make a PPC that people can trust. Too many times have I pulled my PPC out of my pocket dead or self-hard-reset. Too many times must I fiiddle with it just to input or extract data. Sure, a palace is nice, but too many quirks and you start missing that safe, reliable cabin. :wink:

yeah, but Tungsten|T3 will be long dead running out of battery let alone fiddled while things like A716 or h4355 will still chugging away. plus almost all PPC uses replaceable battery, while none of POS has one.

sorry, try again.

[c38b2]

yeah, but Tungsten|T3 will be long dead running out of battery let alone fiddled while things like A716 or h4355 will still chugging away. plus almost all PPC uses replaceable battery, while none of POS has one.

sorry, try again.
I have heard that the T|3 gets pretty good battery life (8 hours constant use?), but recognize that PDAs like the T|E and the T|T2 drain less battery life and probably outlast PPCs. My T|E goes about a week between recharges and I play games and listen to music on there. Sorry, try again.

[nimbus]

how about posting a review plus battery benchmark on those claim? I don't know what you guys do in Palm-land, but I can't seem to find out what any of those handheld battery performance are. No review, no benchmark, and bogus official specs.

well, at least that part is marketing innovation, How to dupe consumers. I wonder how long until a class action is launched on that exagerated battery claim.

[c38b2]

Do you know Ellis (edeab220) from Pocket Loft? He and I chatted about this a little while ago and he is where I got the figure:

Me: what is the battery life like on a T3?
Ellis: I find it to be acceptable
Ellis: better than my NR
Me: contant on/standby hours?
Ellis: it lasts for about 8hrs continous use
Me: with or without BT?
Ellis: but it can go for more than 3 days w/o charge if you just use it for PIM
Ellis: w/ BT
Me: wow
Ellis: well...if u use BT it'll be 8hrs
Ellis: if you just keep BT on it will last longer
Ellis: like two days
I trust him because he HAS a T|3... I know the figure is not scientific but it's all I immediately have. I will look for some battery tests...

[nimbus]

That was your big benchmark? edeab220? Come on now, does it even pass the giggle test?

I wonder what POS users are thinking sometimes.

[c38b2]

That was your big benchmark? edeab220? Come on now, does it even pass the giggle test?

I wonder what POS users are thinking sometimes.
Big benchmark? Well, let's see what I actually had SAID:
...I have heard that the T|3 gets pretty good battery life (8 hours constant use?)...
I think I indicated a fair level of uncertainty. Since you seem so sure about your assertion that PPCs outlast Palms let's see your benchmarks then. :|

[nimbus]

I think I indicated a fair level of uncertainty. Since you seem so sure about your assertion that PPCs outlast Palms let's see your benchmarks then. :|

you can say that again.
here is sample of review with benchmark, plenty of them around for other models too.

toward the middle.
http://www.pocketmatrix.com/reviews/a716/index2.php

benchmarking is standard feature in PPC review, but with Palm there is ALMOST no benchmark in any review. It's definitely a strange phenomena.

try finding out what is the benchmark of all latest POS models review. You'll be surprised how nobody does benchmark.

[c38b2]

You'll be surprised how nobody does benchmark.
After thoroughly looking I'm not surprised. I also will concede that the A716 has amazing battery life - longer than most Palms on the market today. :)

[wigglesworth]

c38b2 wroteThe only thing that's keeping Palm alive is Microsoft's inability to make a PPC that people can trust.. Man what a marketing strategy! no real innovation on the part of Palm, just a reliance on Microsoft! :wink: strange indeed
Too many times have I pulled my PPC out of my pocket dead or self-hard-reset. Too many times must I fiiddle with it just to input or extract data. A little tip, recharge, recharge, recharge :wink:
I own a Jornada 568 and have listened to MP3's while working on a word document, or reading a e-book, and entering tasks and contact information in at the same time, my unit has one single battery and to date I have not once been able to get it to die during a single days use.

I'd also like to kmow how you could pull your unit out and have it do a self hard reset, which by the way it can't do, it usually requires holding down a certain sequence of buttons, and or the power source or some other combo! even to do a soft reset requires a small object to be inserted in the back of the unit (seems impossible if it's just sitting in your pocket). Really, don't you have to fiddle with a palm to input anything in it too :?:

I agree that Palm is no innovater, I remeber working at Staples and owning my first Palm VX, it was the coolest but I got turned off when as a company they were not innovating there products. I eventually turned to the Handera 330 ( did anyone else have one of these?)http://www.handera.com/Products/HandEra330.aspx

Now that was a cool machine that used palm OS. It supported CF, you could rotate it to landscape mode, It had the coolest backlit, much like the indiglo found on watches today, not the little green letters found on palms, Do they still backlite like that now?
You could swith between batteries or a recharge battery pack. By far the coolest feature was the hide away input area where you would normally enter text.

To give you an idea of why I believe Palm is not an innovater. Handera when they went to source the code from Palm said that they wanted to create a hide away graphiti box, Palm in their infanite wisdom said, It can't be done we've tried it and it doesn't work...Well Handera got it to work and it worked beautifully!

Look at all that Sony has accomplished using the Palm OS, they have some beautiful machines, the problem I have with them is the limit of their choice of media that can't be used in to much else ( at the time) amd the fact that you could only go up to 128MB. I last read that they will be available in sizes up to 1GB, but that it is a new technology and will not be backwards compatable to there other machines. ( that's what I last read and have not bothered to check on it anymore)
At Staples I was selling the newest Sony Clies for $1000 CDN and then I learned that my customer will not be able to take adavantage of a larger capacity card without shelling out another $1000 for a new unit...How Friggen dumb is that? lol

[Janak Parekh]

Too many times have I pulled my PPC out of my pocket dead or self-hard-reset.
Just to add to others' comments on this, I have not had this happen to me in years. The only unit I had trouble like this was my original 3650, and that was when I use using the Microdrive and sucking the battery dry. I charge my Pocket PCs between once/twice a week and every day, and they hum happily along.

Is it possible your unit is defective?

--janak

[Deslock]

How about hotsync in the background while still being able to use the device? ...oooppsss..Is that still a limitation?
All of my PPCs were so slow during ActiveSync that they were unusable. What good is multitasking if you can't multitask with it?

[Deslock]

Too many times have I pulled my PPC out of my pocket dead or self-hard-reset.
Just to add to others' comments on this, I have not had this happen to me in years. The only unit I had trouble like this was my original 3650, and that was when I use using the Microdrive and sucking the battery dry. I charge my Pocket PCs between once/twice a week and every day, and they hum happily along.

Is it possible your unit is defective?

--janak
My 1910 was a lot more stable than my 2210s (I went through a few of them looking for a less-problematic one). I had a few unplanned hard-resets with the 2210 and a lot of soft-resets.

[Deslock]

Why spend so much time tearing down the competition instead of focusing on fixing problems with PPC? I wouldn't have switched back to Palm if Microsoft had fixed PPC's alarm problem, fixed the Activesync problems, had implemented a better multitasking model, had created a faster and more customizable method for installing software, implemented on-the-fly screen-orientation switching, implemented higher resolution, and made PPC more responsive (almost everything happens instantly on Palm, while there's usually a pause when navigating and switching apps on PPC).

I'm glad to see that some of these things are being addressed, and I'll give PPC another look later this year (VGA in a PDA is some-tasty.. that e805 has me drooling, but I'm wary of Toshiba).

However, some of PPC's problems are a direct result of WinCE being based on Win32... so, for example, it's unlikely Microsoft will ever be able to make PPC as responsive as Palm. But I'd like to see them accomplish that.

On that note, isn't it sad that when Palm first announced that they were adding multitasking, a lot of people around here gleefully claimed that Palm would become sluggish like PPC. Why not look at Palm and say, "Cool, I hope they do it well and provide a better user experience."? When I read of upcoming advances for different platforms, I get excited and look forward to seeing the improvements in action. Around here it's almost always "How can we spin this news to make it seem like Palm is making a mistake?".

Which, in this case, it seems likely that they're not. This will disappoint some, but judging by the emulator, Palm has implemented multitasking without creating performance problems (though we won't know for certain for a few more months).

Now the argument will morph into, "Yeah, but they didn't implement *true* multitasking like it works with Windows." Well, that type of multitasking has several disadvantages and Palm's approach may end up being more appropriate for most handheld uses. Obviously, we don't know enough yet to make that judgement.

[huangzhinong]

Which, in this case, it seems likely that they're not. This will disappoint some, but judging by the emulator, Palm has implemented multitasking without creating performance problems (though we won't know for certain for a few more months).


I installed the simulator in my P4 2.8G desktop, it runs so slow that I give it up within 5 mins. I know it doesn't mean the true cobalt device will run as slow as this. But I don't know how did you "judging by the emulator, Palm has implemented multitasking without creating performance problems " since the cobalt is so slow.

Just a small correction, simulator is not emulator, there is not emulator for cobalt yet.



Now the argument will morph into, "Yeah, but they didn't implement *true* multitasking like it works with Windows." Well, that type of multitasking has several disadvantages and Palm's approach may end up being more appropriate for most handheld uses. Obviously, we don't know enough yet to make that judgement.

Unfortunately, POS 6.0 just implement the DA in POS5 into the system and make it multiple threadingable. "Multitasking" has a definition in computing industry, which is implemented by almost all operating system like Mac, Windows, Unix, Linux, PPC, BeOS. POS6 doesn't implement the industry standard multitasking, although it does have the POS definition multitasking, which is called multithreading in all other OS.

[Wiggster]

Why spend so much time tearing down the competition instead of focusing on fixing problems with PPC?

If I have a fork stuck in my leg, I'm gonna make sure everyone else has a fork sticking out of their leg, too! :D


Anyways, the reason to tear down Palm is that most were expecting Palm, a good, reliable maker of PDAs, to implement features into its OS that other operating systems have had for quite some time, even for as long as well over two decades (multitasking). If the Palm weren't such a great device, would so many of us Windows Mobile zealots be picking and choosing what our devices do better than theirs? No, we'd be ignoring them.

Fact is, Palm is a terrific competitor to the Pocket PC. But it's a war, so pick your side. They're both the same, but everyone will tell you his side is better.

[Scott R]

It is always interesting to note that we always get some users registering specifically to bash either side. Today we have nimbus - a month ago in PalmSource: "Yeah, Microsoft Has The Right Strategy!" (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24051) we had partita and goofrider.

Makes me wonder.... :roll:No need to wonder, the grammar and tone are telltale signs. nimbus = partita = Ska.

Just out of curiosity, how many handles are we allowed to have here? So is it OK if I create three or four new ones so that I can pop in and agree with myself?

Scott

[Scott R]

Why spend so much time tearing down the competition instead of focusing on fixing problems with PPC? I wouldn't have switched back to Palm if Microsoft had fixed PPC's alarm problem, fixed the Activesync problems, had implemented a better multitasking model, had created a faster and more customizable method for installing software, implemented on-the-fly screen-orientation switching, implemented higher resolution, and made PPC more responsive (almost everything happens instantly on Palm, while there's usually a pause when navigating and switching apps on PPC).Deslock, I couldn't agree more. As I said in another thread here recently, both platforms have strengths, and both have weaknesses. IMO, I've decided that they both suck more than they ought to at this stage in the game. You've hit on some of the sore points for the PPC OS for me. I'll add to that list poor GUI design. There's way too much inconsistency in how UI elements are applied and things often aren't where they logically should be. On top of that, there's wasted screen space (e.g. - always-visible top title bar plus always-visible bottom menu bar).

On the Palm OS, the lack of multitasking (being addressed with OS6 it seems) and a lack of certain advanced applications are what keeps me using my HP iPaq h4155 regularly, despite the frustration that the GUI gives me.

Scott

[Fishie]

yeah, but Tungsten|T3 will be long dead running out of battery let alone fiddled while things like A716 or h4355 will still chugging away. plus almost all PPC uses replaceable battery, while none of POS has one.

sorry, try again.
I have heard that the T|3 gets pretty good battery life (8 hours constant use?), but recognize that PDAs like the T|E and the T|T2 drain less battery life and probably outlast PPCs. My T|E goes about a week between recharges and I play games and listen to music on there. Sorry, try again.

Strange then that my Toshiba e800 manages VGA wifi surfing for a longer time then my tungstenE does reading ebooks and playing MP3s.

[Ed Hansberry]

Why spend so much time tearing down the competition instead of focusing on fixing problems with PPC?
We do that too. We just don't ignore the competition.
Just out of curiosity, how many handles are we allowed to have here? So is it OK if I create three or four new ones so that I can pop in and agree with myself?
The mods do the best they can. It is like whack-a-mole though with some of them. :? It is too easy to get a new email address.

[Deslock]

Deslock, I couldn't agree more. As I said in another thread here recently, both platforms have strengths, and both have weaknesses. IMO, I've decided that they both suck more than they ought to at this stage in the game. You've hit on some of the sore points for the PPC OS for me. I'll add to that list poor GUI design. There's way too much inconsistency in how UI elements are applied and things often aren't where they logically should be. On top of that, there's wasted screen space (e.g. - always-visible top title bar plus always-visible bottom menu bar).

On the Palm OS, the lack of multitasking (being addressed with OS6 it seems) and a lack of certain advanced applications are what keeps me using my HP iPaq h4155 regularly, despite the frustration that the GUI gives me.

I too like many things about PPC, despite some of its frustrating aspects. I've complained about waste of screen space before, but with VGA on the horizon, that'll be less of an issue. In addition to the things I mentioned earlier, I'd like to see PPC make more use of stylus-strokes for commands and navigation.

[Deslock]

I installed the simulator in my P4 2.8G desktop, it runs so slow that I give it up within 5 mins. I know it doesn't mean the true cobalt device will run as slow as this. But I don't know how did you "judging by the emulator, Palm has implemented multitasking without creating performance problems " since the cobalt is so slow.

Just a small correction, simulator is not emulator, there is not emulator for cobalt yet.

Yeah, I meant simulator (I shouldn't post after my bedtime). I have POSE (the actual emulator for POS4 and earlier) and the simulators for both POS5 and POS6 all installed on my 900 MHz laptop. All of them are very snappy.

[Chairman Clench]

I wouldn't have switched back to Palm if Microsoft had fixed PPC's alarm problem, fixed the Activesync problems, had implemented a better multitasking model, had created a faster and more customizable method for installing software, implemented on-the-fly screen-orientation switching, implemented higher resolution, and made PPC more responsive (almost everything happens instantly on Palm, while there's usually a pause when navigating and switching apps on PPC).

I completely agree with you and am in the same boat. The alarms / reminders issue did it for me. As I've stated before, I will gladly trade "advanced" features for more reliable BASIC functionality.

If / when M$ gets the alarm / reminder issue fixed, I will take another look at Windows Mobile devices. Of course, this bug has existed since PPC2000, so I am not holding my breath that they are ever going to fix it.

[Janak Parekh]

My 1910 was a lot more stable than my 2210s (I went through a few of them looking for a less-problematic one). I had a few unplanned hard-resets with the 2210 and a lot of soft-resets.
Yeah - I'm getting a vague feeling that there are more spontaneous hard resets with 2210s than any other device I know. My officemate's seems to do it every few weeks -- he pulls it out of his pocket, and wham, it doesn't turn on. He soft-resets it and it becomes a hard reset, and even more interesting, the battery isn't drained all the way. :| I'll try and see if I can glean some more details and, if necessary, start a thread on it.

On the other hand, my Samsung i700 and Toshiba e805 are both extremely stable. I also have absolutely zero problems on my i700 (don't use the e805 for alarms).

--janak

[sikosis]

Sorry Ed ... get your facts straight before you start mouthing off please ...

"This is a true preemptively multi-threaded, multi-process OS, and developers can create additional threads both within their own applications and in a common "background" process."

Your article refers to previous versions of the Palm and with a history like the Window Mobile aka PocketPC aka WinCE - you can hardly talk. :lol:

[Christian]

My 1910 was a lot more stable than my 2210s (I went through a few of them looking for a less-problematic one). I had a few unplanned hard-resets with the 2210 and a lot of soft-resets.
Yeah - I'm getting a vague feeling that there are more spontaneous hard resets with 2210s than any other device I know. My officemate's seems to do it every few weeks -- he pulls it out of his pocket, and wham, it doesn't turn on. He soft-resets it and it becomes a hard reset, and even more interesting, the battery isn't drained all the way. :| I'll try and see if I can glean some more details and, if necessary, start a thread on it.

On the other hand, my Samsung i700 and Toshiba e805 are both extremely stable. I also have absolutely zero problems on my i700 (don't use the e805 for alarms).

--janak

This is exactly what baffles me about my 2210 as well. It has hard reset itself three times with over half of the battery still charged. Once, it hard reset itself while in the cradle and at 100% battery life (while I was watching it no less!) 8O

[Ed@Brighthand]

Jeff Kirvin has written an interesting comparison of the ways the two operating systems handle multitasking:
http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column040315.htm

[Ed Hansberry]

Jeff Kirvin has written an interesting comparison of the ways the two operating systems handle multitasking:
http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column040315.htm

Quite amusing to read that from a palm apologist now that we are over 2 years later and OS6 has just about been declaired Dead on Arrival.

[pbrown00]

I hate to open Pandora's Box, but I've been reading thru this thread and although alot of this is very old, I've got to tell you you're missing the boat. I have both a Palm OS 5 device (Tungsten C) and a WM5 device (T-Mobile MDA). I've got to tell you that IMHO, Palm OS 5 (I hope OS 6 is dead) wins hands down, because it has one feature WM5 does not - it works; first time and every time.

I don't want to get too negative here, because WM5 does excel in some areas, but by and large WM5 is too buggy and too unreliable, at least on the MDA. Here are some of the problems:

1. Active Sync - keeps on crashing contact and meeting information not only on the MDA, but also on Outlook 2003 on my PC. The problem seems to be related to ActiveSync running by itself every couple of minutes or so. If any other application accesses Outlook while ActiveSync tries to run; ActiveSync gets clobbered and very confused. My work around has been to disable contact and schedule information in ActiveSync, and not to rely on the PIM functions on the MDA. Instead I take the Palm with me if I have to schedule an appointment.
2. Also in line with this, AvantGo pulled synchronization out of ActiveSync because the repeated sync was crashing their servers. This is a key application, and requires an additional level of synchronization. Yuch.
3. This is a new problem and may be hardware related, but the MDA keeps on loseing touch screen alignment.
4. Just went on a long cruise on Princess Cruise Lines. The MDA could not sign on to WiFi on ship (browser is lacking functionality.) The Palm saved the day.
5. Try changing email account parameters in Outlook on WM5.
6. Pocket Excel (and the other Office applications) do not support passwords. Documents To Go on the Palm does. I will not put an Excel spreadsheet from my PC onto the MDA without this feature.
7. I periodically have to reboot the MDA. It reminds me of Windows 95 more than anything else.

On the plus side, the MDA excels in the following areas:
1. Multimedia - The Tunsten C did not support stereo. This problem was corrected in later models. The aspect ratio of the screen on the T/C does not lend itself to viewing video material. These problems are more related to T/C vs MDA hardware than WM5 vs Palm OS.
2. Text Rendering - Vastly superior on WM5. Foreign languages, in particular, are very difficult to work with in Palm OS.

I do not believe that multitasking is a real problem as far as a PDA is concerned. As far as downloading email is concerned, I want to stay on the email application and monitor it while downloading because the connection costs me money, usually on a per minute basis while connected. As far as software development is concerned, Palm OS has hooks which usually allow you to work around any multi-tasking issues.

The one place where WM5 wins hands down is for those people who are trying to build a PDA and market it. Palm OS costs are prohibitive; it is essentially a closed environment as far as hardware targeting is concerned. Microsoft has made commercial marketing of their OS a key feature. However, the end user has a quite different perspective.