Rick Broida's PDA Prizefight on C|Net: Who Hired This Referee?

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3127_7-5120845.html?tag=cnetfd.ld' target='_blank'>http://reviews.cnet.com/4520-3127_7...l?tag=cnetfd.ld</a><br /><br /></div>"Microsoft may rule the desktop world, but in the battle for handheld supremacy, it's still anybody's game. Found in handhelds from PalmOne, Kyocera, Sony, Samsung, and other manufacturers, the Palm operating system has held a market-share advantage since the beginning, but Windows Mobile 2003 (née Pocket PC) is no longer just nipping at its heels; it's nipping away at its sales, as well. But if you put the Palm OS in the ring with Windows Mobile, which PDA operating system would survive the bout? Is one notably stronger than the other? <br /><br />To find out, we booked eight rounds of PDA pugilism, pitting Palm OS 5.2.1 against fast-rising challenger Microsoft Windows Mobile 2003 in categories such as ease of use, Office compatibility, and multimedia features. For the most part, we left the hardware outside the ring, as features such as battery life and processor speed vary widely from model to model across both platforms. The operating systems threw some seriously powerful jabs, and the winner may surprise you."<br /><br />An interesting article, but one look at who wrote it and I knew what the outcome would be. Rick Broida was part of the Handheld Media Group, and a writer for Handheld Computing Magazine - a very Palm-biased magazine. He's also the author of several Palm books ("How To Do Everything With Your Palm" and others). In short, he's about as qualified to do a comparison as I would be. :roll: That is, not very - I'm too Pocket PC biased, and he's too Palm biased. There are indeed some areas where the Palm trumps the Pocket PC (screen resolution being one of them), but this article is full of inaccuracies and "warm fuzzies" for Palm.<br /><br />For instance, as of last year there were over 13,000 Pocket PC software listings in Handango (I don't have a current figure) - a heck of a lot more than "several thousand" as Rick suggests. Sure, some of them are themes, eBooks, etc. - but the Palm catalogues have the same type of "non-application" entries. And so much of Rick's comparison is based on "the applications just aren't intuitive" - what he really means is "This Pocket PC just doesn't work like my Palm". Anyway, go give the article a read and tell me what you think.

[yslee]

My thoughts:

Round 4 to me is a tie; PPCs offer way better Outlook integration out of the box, Chapura isn't always bundled with Palm devices, but then there's this little thing called ActiveSync.. :roll:

Round 5 I thought should be a tie as well, having used both VersaMail and Pocket Inbox, I find both of them overwhelmingly underpowered for my needs. =P

Round 8 is as Jason mentioned, both sides have very good software, while there's a wee bit more software on the Palm side, I can't see Palm having that big an advantage.

[JonnoB]

Why is it that when it comes to the Palm, they include third party apps as part of the competition, but when it comes to the Pocket PC, it is just the base OS? For example, the description of having to hit the start button to get at programs. There are plenty of Today screen launchers available.

[Sheynk]

Since I know all about this one :lol: ...


I think it is absurd that he gets into the whole "ease of use" comparison thing. Ive used both extensively and can tell you that there are a BUNCH of inconviniences within the palm os as well.

[mace]

Why is it that when it comes to the Palm, they include third party apps as part of the competition, but when it comes to the Pocket PC, it is just the base OS? For example, the description of having to hit the start button to get at programs. There are plenty of Today screen launchers available.

That is exactly what I was thinking, How about that you can put 9 programs in the start menu? and not have to use the program folder.

[yslee]

9 programs are way too limited.

Well, problem is most of the Today launchers aren't usually bundled; at least with the Palm something is bundled, though as with most bundles they're fairly inconsistent.

[c38b2]

I think it is absurd that he gets into the whole "ease of use" comparison thing. Ive used both extensively and can tell you that there are a BUNCH of inconviniences within the palm os as well.
As in...? :?

[dmy]

Seems to me that a good, and well balanced comparison could be had here, and I think we (that is to say Jason) should propose that a co-authored review be wertten, byt the team of Jason Dunn and Rick Broida.

Whaddia y'all think??? I'm actually proposing that Jason get in contact with Rick and write the comparison for PPCThoughts in tandem, each to help balance and assist the other in a far result.


Cheers,
David

[denivan]

As in...? :?

My boss asked me to setup his Treo 600 for him, so I used it for a week or so and it was horrible. Off course, I am used to PocketPC, but it felt so clunky and akward to use, it just didn't feel natural to me. I assume which ever OS you use first, stays your favorite...

[Jacob]

Seems to me that a good, and well balanced comparison could be had here, and I think we (that is to say Jason) should propose that a co-authored review be wertten, byt the team of Jason Dunn and Rick Broida.

Whaddia y'all think??? I'm actually proposing that Jason get in contact with Rick and write the comparison for PPCThoughts in tandem, each to help balance and assist the other in a far result.


Cheers,
David

A co-authored review? I think they'd end up in a fist fight :lol:

All kidding aside, It would be a good idea to have a point-counterpoint.

As in both write good points about one area of comparison and then they write their response to the other's. I don't know how well this would end up. It may end up being quite repetitive.

[ggoode]

My Toshiba e800 has a resolution of 640x480, which as far as I know is double the res. of the best palm device.

[mangochutneyman]

Why is it that when it comes to the Palm, they include third party apps as part of the competition, but when it comes to the Pocket PC, it is just the base OS?

B/c often many of these 3rd party apps come bundled with the device out the box...sometimes even in rom. If PI/textmaker were available OTB, woud be different. :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

"This feature originally appeared in the February 2004 issue of Computer Shopper. Technology journalist Rick Broida is the co-author of How to Do Everything with Your Palm Handheld, 4th Edition, and the upcoming 101 Killer Apps for Your Pocket PC. Got a question? Let us know!"

:lol: I can just see Rick writing the "101 Killer Apps For Your Pocket PC" book now...."There's this app that reminds me of how Palm does things, so it's really good..." :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

My Toshiba e800 has a resolution of 640x480, which as far as I know is double the res. of the best palm device.

Well, to be fair, Rick did only focus on the OS, not the hardware - if he had, I think it would have been even more interesting (though I'm sure the results would have been the same).

[Jason Dunn]

B/c often many of these 3rd party apps come bundled with the device out the box...sometimes even in rom...

Pocket PCs also come with 3rd party applications, many of them in ROM: picture viewers, backup/restore tools, task switchers, etc. If he's comparing the base OS, which he said he was, no 3rd party tools should be mentioned, period.

[Palmguy]

I assume which ever OS you use first, stays your favorite...

Thankfully this isn't always the case...I, as you can see by my screen name, am a former Palm user, for quite awhile in fact. Years. And I saw the light. I've tried to go back. And I can't :lol:

As for the article by Broida, I'm just not feeling it. The Palm OS depends heavily upon third party software to meet the functionality of the PPC OS. The quantity of third party software, Round 8, should have been a draw. Jason is right, he's too ingrained into the Palm world to write an objective comparison. I'm the same way, albeit too ingrained into PPC land.

[mangochutneyman]

Pocket PCs also come with 3rd party applications, many of them in ROM: picture viewers, backup/restore tools, task switchers, etc. If he's comparing the base OS, which he said he was, no 3rd party tools should be mentioned, period.

Point taken. But should be noted that not even most modern palmos devices today have similar base os per se. For example T3, TH55, Z2, iQue, UX, Treo all have diff mileu of palmos API etc. Furthermore, OEMs use 3rd party bundles to differentiate products. Other examples Palmone's recent suggestion to license propietary "phone interface" to other OEM to differentiate itself and new 'enhanced PIM'. Thus it almost hard find palmie with only base os today...unless you want crappy zire...

[cptpoland]

First of all I think all those Palm vs Pocketpc duke outs should be done with a base machine. No third party apps what so ever, even if they come bundled with the system. This gives a better comparison as to what each device can do.
Here is my take on this review....
Round 1: Winner pocket pc. Why? First of all Main screen. When I turn on my pda I care about what is going on today. Are there any appoitments I have. PocketPC shows that right away. On a Palm I see my apps, and have to launch a calendar. Start button.... just like in windows, one clicks start programs to get to their apps. That's not intuitive? Maybe for a Mac person..

Round 2: Totally agree.... :D
Round 3: Agree....
Round 4: Should be even. I heard "somewhere" that palms dropped their native Mac support. So now we need a thrid party app for a Mac, just like Pocket PC. There are other 3rd party sync apps out there for both platforms that will sync with everything under the sun. Active Sync maybe not the greatest app, but when it works it works just fine.
Round 5: I don't know much about VersaMail, but must agree that Pocket Outlook is very basic (although much improved from WinCe 2002). So I'll give this one to Palm.
Round 6: Office compatibility on Palm? Ha Ha Ha. There is NONE! At least PPC has Word (glorified notepad) and excel, that can read ms office documents, and write ms office documents. I agree it's not the greatest but it's there, right in the device. Winner Pocket PC.
Round 7: Totally agree....
Round 8: Well my preference is quality not quantity. I'll rather have choice of 2 good pieces of software, then 6 crappy ones. Sorry that's my personal choice.

So the winner is ..... why even ask. Of course POCKET PC.

That's my stance on the matter.... if some Palm user would like to flame.... go right ahead. :twisted:

CP

[Jason Dunn]

For example T3, TH55, Z2, iQue, UX, Treo all have diff mileu of palmos API etc. Furthermore, OEMs use 3rd party bundles to differentiate products. Other examples Palmone's recent suggestion to license propietary "phone interface" to other OEM to differentiate itself and new 'enhanced PIM'. Thus it almost hard find palmie with only base os today...unless you want crappy zire...

Then Rick should have written a much shorter article: "Because the Palm OS is so fragmented, a pure OS to OS comparison is impossible, so I'm going to go work on my next book instead." :lol:

[JustinGTP]

In the end, the Palm OS PDA is the champ for now. But we're keeping an eye out for Windows Mobile 2004. Maybe a rematch next year?

And we all know who the winner is going to be already :roll:

[Aerestis]

Hmmm, I think they are equal to this point. I think in a year or two, we'll start seeing one or the other take the lead. The truth is that they are both really great, but they both have their terrible flaws. A ppc user sees the palm flaws as completely ridiculous, while they don't realize that the flaws with their own os are equally stupid. I find deleting a contact or task on my palm needlessly time consuming, but I am sure there are similar silly things on ppc. I think there should be a way to copy a week over to the next week. Because seriously, how many of us do the same thing week after week? We have schedules. The calendar should have a copy-paste function so we can automatically copy days over. As far as I know, neither of the os's can do that yet. Students would find that infinitely better than the built in calendar. Or am I missing something?

Everyone favours one os or the other, of course, but in the end I think there is a seriously clear point... Neither are really better yet.

[Mitch D]

I like Palmguy was a Palm user for a number of years, i had gone through 5 or 6 different models of the Palm trying to find one that had it all. I tried the Palm 3e, 3xe, Vx, Handspring Visor Dlx, Palm M500 and the Palm M505 and none of them did what I wanted. The interface stank due to the lack of multi tasking and the word processing left alot to be desired.

Plus I never found an App or Game for the palm I was willing to pay money for.

In Feb. 2003 I bought a Compaq iPAQ 3830 that had been a demo unit in the store and been sold and returned at least once. I wasn't convinced that it would meet my needs. In fact I am embarrassed to say that I had slammed the PPC OS for years because I thought of it the way most Palm Users do, that is was bloated and hard to use. After spending time with both devices I found myself leaving my Palm at home more and more till I finally stopped using it altogether about a month after I bought my iPAQ.

I have never loocked back, yes I am on my third PPC device since that time and later this year with the forthcoming release of the iPAQ 6000 series I will be onto my fourth one. Not because I can't find one to fit my needs but because there are so many choices, I feel like a kid in a candy store. Plus I have a thing for shiny blinky toys (hey, what can I say?).

I have even gone so far as to buy a couple of games and apps for my "right arm" and I am always on the lookout for new ones to add to my collection.

Palm might be the largest seller of PDA's but it doesn't make them the best choice for everyone.

As for my old PPC's, I sold one to a friend to get her away from the PALMs and the other is up for sale on Ebay as we speak trying to help me raise money for my fourth one!

[backpackerx]

As a former Palm user who switched to PocketPC this really irritated me. Especially when he would allow a third party, non OS app to be compared to the standard ROM features of PocketPC. Plus, you would think with a highly regarded website like CNET they would have up to date info on things like the Mac support issue. Anyone notice the article didn't even begin to compare multitasking, running programs from storage cards, or the availability of many Microsoft specific programs like Messenger, Pocket Streets, Money, etc.?

[mcsouth]

Okay, I'm usually hesitant to get involved in these Palm v. PPC battles, but there are some valid arguments to be made here.

I would disagree about the OS you start with being the one you stick with - I started with Palm OS 3.1 on a IIIe, moved up to a M505 with 4.0, and then made the jump to PPC - I'm on my third PPC unit, having gone from PPC to PPC2002 to Mobile 2003. Would I ever go back to Palm? Depends on a lot of factors - I'm primarily interested in what does what I need done the best. Today that is PPC. Based on the initial reviews of Palm's new OS, it looks like I will probably be sticking with PPC for a while yet.

I would NEVER, EVER consider Pocket Word to even remotely be considered a benefit to the PPC OS - the first time you totally hose an important document because PW can't handle round-tripping, you'll understand. Thank God for Textmaker!

What flaws does Palm have that PPC doesn't? One word - multitasking. Yeah, I've disagreed about this in the past, but I still remember trying to enter a new contact in my Palm, having to jump to another app to check something, and then come back to the Address Book to find the contact closed - not very convenient.

On the other hand, I do appreciate the way that Palm handles setting times for appointments - it is much easier to set up appointments on the Palm when the start time doesn't fall on the half hour, or when the meeting length isn't in hour and a half increments. My wife can set-up a meeting in her Palm quicker than I can in my PPC.

Third party software? That is an old argument that just doesn't come close to holding water any longer. I have NEVER had a problem finding an application for PPC that I needed - and in several cases, I can find freeware software that does the job just fine, just like I could on the Palm.

Lastly, I will admit that while some of the vendors have done some unique and interesting things with their Palm OS units (Sony comes to mind), I have been watching the whole SDIO driver issue with the Wi-Fi cards with great interest. Funny how writing the driver for PPC seemed fairly straightforward, while at this point, it appears that there may never be drivers for the Palm (OS4 units?) because of the numerous variations that each vendor has written into "their" version of the Palm OS. For all that I would like to see more innovation on the PPC front, it is nice to be able to buy peripherals knowing that the odds you can get stable drivers is high (okay, there were some stumbles from PPC2002 to Mobile 2003, but that mostly seems to be straightened out now).

Bottom line, I think both platforms have their strengths and weaknesses, and I certainly don't think that one is inherently better than the other - it really comes down to what you do with the unit. My wife is more than happy with her Palm, and I see nothing on the Palm front to convince me to give up my PPC, but we both use our units very differently.

I tend to read articles like this with an amused smile on my face - you can usually tell pretty quickly what bias the author has for one platform or the other!

[Sheynk]

As a former Palm user who switched to PocketPC this really irritated me. Especially when he would allow a third party, non OS app to be compared to the standard ROM features of PocketPC. Plus, you would think with a highly regarded website like CNET they would have up to date info on things like the Mac support issue. Anyone notice the article didn't even begin to compare multitasking, running programs from storage cards, or the availability of many Microsoft specific programs like Messenger, Pocket Streets, Money, etc.?

Although I do not know what roots CNET came from, one can say with certainty that their reviews often do not represent the views of true technology enthusiasts found on forums such as these. It appears to me that they are after the "newbieeeeeeee" market. They have great coverage on shows and such, but there is something "corporate" about them that steers me away from trusting them with my purchases.


Back to the article:

I wonder if the outcome was in PPC's favour, would I find the same resentment of the author on some Palm-thoughts site? :?:

[mangochutneyman]

Then Rick should have written a much shorter article: "Because the Palm OS is so fragmented, a pure OS to OS comparison is impossible, so I'm going to go work on my next book instead." :lol:

Will not argue there's too many flavas out there. But 'fragmentation' can also be replaced with 'flexibility' depending on perspective. :wink: OS can be conformed to device and lisencees can specify certian funcitonality to integrate depending on modular nature. This results in some lack of uniformity, but devices still have same UI majority of apps still functional across now four gen of OS. Basically, consumer doesn't know what is 'base' or not, nor does majority care. Heck, studies show most users are not even aware of 3rd party apps available, probably don't know where to get them, and prolly don't read sites like this. Thus average user only knows out the box experience which really is true reprentation of user experience, and for those people (who are majority) Broida's article makes sense.

other point:

Round 6: Office compatibility on Palm? Ha Ha Ha. There is NONE

ctpPoland, DTG6 supports native office types...and bundled with almost all modern devices.

[backpackerx]

ctpPoland, DTG6 supports native office types...and bundled with almost all modern devices.

Ok, but you say almost. Getting DTG can be hit or miss depending on the device and manufactuer. Shouldn't the comparison be with STANDARD apps and ROM?

[Partita]

Notice how the comparison doesn't touch things that PPC does very well.

-peripherals. (eg. map/GPS, Video in/out, wireless etc)
-He compares the best POS apps against -who knows what in PPC- while he doesn't compare the best of PPC apps to POS apps. This usually underlines how primitive POS apps are.
-the hopeless state of wireless netowrking in POS.
-Multimedia? that comparison is the dubious one I've seen.
-Hardware size/battery (What happen to this anyway? Palm users used to scream this or that is useless if the hardware is a brick, but now every palm user shuts up when it come to comparing size)

[billbuckner]

I loved how he implied that you needed to buy Outlook to sync, rather than having it included.

[T-Will]

And more software means more potential functionality.

So if PalmOS has 100 Tetris clones and Pocket PC only has 30, does that mean there's more potential functionality in PalmOS? Nope. 100 programs that do the same function as opposed to 30 programs that do the same function means you have a better selection, but doesn't mean there's more functionality in one OS or the other.

[mangochutneyman]

peripherals. (eg. map/GPS, Video in/out, wireless etc)

Do not deny this. PUC is oxymoron and Sony lives proprietary hell...

He compares the best POS apps agaisnt, who knows what in PPC, but he doesn't compare the best of PPC apps to POS apps. (This usually underlines how primitive POS apps are)


Nope, compare OTB apps. Btw disagree all bundled apps are "best"

-the hopeless state of wireless entowrking in POS.


Explain? No BT probs in ppc? :wink: Read up on Cobalt btw..

-Multimedia? that comparison is the dubious one I've seen.


PPC has always been superior in multimedia. Expansive media type support in Cobalt is attempt to address this. However POS still lack WMA support b/c of cost. Disparity will reduce significantly...

Hardware size/battery
Yes there is no significant advantage in midrange/upper POS devices in terms of battery longevity. But this just means, both platforms suck equally no? Anyway, X3i longevity is amazing and TH55 is reported to be very good as well. POS OEM should use replaceable batteries like PPC though...

[Jason Dunn]

Will not argue there's too many flavas out there. But 'fragmentation' can also be replaced with 'flexibility' depending on perspective.

Sure, tell that to the people waiting for a Sandisk WiFi driver! :wink:

[JonnoB]

And more software means more potential functionality.

So if PalmOS has 100 Tetris clones and Pocket PC only has 30, does that mean there's more potential functionality in PalmOS? Nope. 100 programs that do the same function as opposed to 30 programs that do the same function means you have a better selection, but doesn't mean there's more functionality in one OS or the other.

Not only that, but has anyone considered that the thousands of applications and tool hacks has more to do with an attempt at overcoming platform weaknesses than it does with some benevolent community of developers?

[Partita]

And more software means more potential functionality.

So if PalmOS has 100 Tetris clones and Pocket PC only has 30, does that mean there's more potential functionality in PalmOS? Nope. 100 programs that do the same function as opposed to 30 programs that do the same function means you have a better selection, but doesn't mean there's more functionality in one OS or the other.

Funny as it is, if you look at pocketgear counter vs palmgear in Game titles, PPC has more titles!

At least that's one category raw number PPC is already overtaking POS.

[Cypher]

I just sent a note to the hand-held editor at CNet about the obvious bias in the piece. I noticed my spell-checker thought "Broida" should be spelled "Broadax." Kind of appropriate, no?

[David Prahl]

Grrr! Palm fanatics that promise a "fair fight" make me angry! :evil:

Most of what he wrote (I skimmed each "round") seems to follow the old-school mantra of "Palms have battery life and simplicity, PPCs are MS-only and hard to get apps for".

Poor form, Rick!

[deich]

Hmmm ... PPC vs Palm ... I just visited the Mapapolis forum at GPSPassion. They have a thread about Palm users buying PPCs so they can get better features & better performance on their GPS. Do you think there are some advantages to having a multi-tasking OS?

I admit, part of it is the hardware. But of course, if you want the hardware, you just have to buy a PPC, don't you. I don't think you can divorce hardware and OS today - at least not until hardware manufacturers start giving users a choice of OS.

Strange thing - I have never, ever seen a thread about PPC users buying Palms for any reason.

Am I biased? You bet I am. I'm an engineer. I really appreciate the elagence and efficiency of the Palm design. But that applied more to the early units than it does to what's for sale today. And it only applies if the only thing you want is PIM functions. Less is not always more.

[Partita]

Not only that, but has anyone considered that the thousands of applications and tool hacks has more to do with an attempt at overcoming platform weaknesses than it does with some benevolent community of developers?

Not only that, but if you look at Palmgear category:
-database content
-ebook content

both of them are applicable to PPC. Those are pretty big numbers.

[mangochutneyman]

Will not argue there's too many flavas out there. But 'fragmentation' can also be replaced with 'flexibility' depending on perspective.

Sure, tell that to the people waiting for a Sandisk WiFi driver! :wink:

JDunn is obviously good writer! Good retort and witty! :)
But should mentioned that part of reason for delay of wifi card was legal due disagreement of driver ownership and lisencing rights. Still no excuse but should be mentioned...

[ricksfiona]

I assume which ever OS you use first, stays your favorite...

Thankfully this isn't always the case...I, as you can see by my screen name, am a former Palm user, for quite awhile in fact. Years. And I saw the light. I've tried to go back. And I can't :lol:

As for the article by Broida, I'm just not feeling it. The Palm OS depends heavily upon third party software to meet the functionality of the PPC OS. The quantity of third party software, Round 8, should have been a draw. Jason is right, he's too ingrained into the Palm world to write an objective comparison. I'm the same way, albeit too ingrained into PPC land.

I agree. I used Palm for about 3 years and loved its simplicity. But the PPC opens a whole other world. Yes there was a learning curve, but it only took 2 weeks to be totally comfortable with it. The benefits completely outweigh the learning curve.

[LarDude]

Ha ha! :D

Just read the Broida article/comparison. I thought it was brilliant! What a comic genius! I think he is so underappreciated. Brazenly making obviously unfair/untrue statement in a very bald-faced way -- Ha! Brilliant! Kind of reminds me of that old "Dead parrot" skit on Monty Python (with POS playing the part of the dead parrot in this case :wink: ).

[mangochutneyman]

ctpPoland, DTG6 supports native office types...and bundled with almost all modern devices.

Ok, but you say almost. Getting DTG can be hit or miss depending on the device and manufactuer. Shouldn't the comparison be with STANDARD apps and ROM?

IMO comparison should be of OTB experience bewteen PPC and Palm at the same price point. Compare what you get OTB for $200, 300, 400 etc. Afterall, you pay for everything, compare everything... Different price points indicate diff hardware specs and software bundles. Afterall, why should palmone bundle DTG w/zire when consumer who purchase only want simple PIM and calc? What about Mapsource bundle for iQue? Sony clie bundle for TH55? All these target diff niche, diff markets, diff price points, user experiences. You should compare functionality OTB...

Also, many users here think PalmSource should make its own text editor, music player etc standard part of OS. Why? What is the point when 3rd party soln are better anyway? Why not just lisence and bundle best 3rd party solution or let user make the choice?

[billbuckner]

Ha ha! :D

Just read the Broida article/comparison. I thought it was brilliant! What a comic genius! I think he is so underappreciated. Brazenly making obviously unfair/untrue statement in a very bald-faced way -- Ha! Brilliant! Kind of reminds me of that old "Dead parrot" skit on Monty Python (with POS playing the part of the dead parrot in this case :wink: ).
:lol: I love it when the guy bangs the parrot on the counter.

[David Prahl]

Would I ever use a Palm again? Absolutely! If someone gave me one of the deluxe models I would. :)

[szamot]

should have looked at the heading closer C|NET = Lame and saved the time to do something more productive. What a waste of time.

[Partita]

ctpPoland, DTG6 supports native office types...and bundled with almost all modern devices.

Ok, but you say almost. Getting DTG can be hit or miss depending on the device and manufactuer. Shouldn't the comparison be with STANDARD apps and ROM?

IMO comparison should be of OTB experience bewteen PPC and Palm at the same price point. Compare what you get OTB for $200, 300, 400 etc. Afterall, you pay for everything, compare everything... Different price points indicate diff hardware specs and software bundles. Afterall, why should palmone bundle DTG w/zire when consumer who purchase only want simple PIM and calc? What about Mapsource bundle for iQue? Sony clie bundle for TH55? All these target diff niche, diff markets, diff price points, user experiences. You should compare functionality OTB...

Also, many users here think PalmSource should make its own text editor, music player etc standard part of OS. Why? What is the point when 3rd party soln are better anyway? Why not just lisence and bundle best 3rd party solution or let user make the choice?

Probably that sort of BS can fly in the Palm world, but not in PPC. Even the lowest price PPC at $199 comes with pocketoffice, media player, handwriting input etc. Basic out of the box apps, PPC wins hand down.

GPS hardware+map are available to almost all models.

TH55? can it do GPS? does it even have alternate media player beside Sony approved player? You want GPS? pick your handheld, then pick your GPS hardware, any combination should work, not just single model.

Simple PIM and calc? You just describe the entire Palm line.

Why should Palm provide media player? (If you think Palm doesn't need to, apparently Palm begs to disagree, since they include a media player in Cobalt)

Let's face it, it's an old song "Why would anyone need it?" until "Palm now has it. Look, everybody needs it"

[Scott R]

Didn't get around to reading his article yet (not sure I even will).

My personal take is that they both suck equally well, but in very different ways. Features and usability go hand in hand. I believe strongly that the older Palm OS devices had that perfect combination. By that I mean that for the features they offered, they worked easily, reliably, and efficiently. My experience with the PPC OS is that the user experience is in need of repair, but most of it could be addressed fairly easily if MS had the will and the talent. On recent Palm OS devices, usability is lacking because: a) They've added advanced features but some of them are not integrated well resulting in poor usability, and b) Some features still aren't there but are needed.

As with MS, Palm could address their shortcomings fairly easily, but they seem a bit too disconnected these days. The OS is getting split in all different directions. I'll take Palm's philosophy of "anything goes" over MS' overly rigid control of their licensees any day, but neither approach is ideal. MS is supposedly allowing for more creativity on the part of their licencees now (though no information detailing exactly how this has changed has been revealed). Now if they could just fix up the usability issues, they'd be in good shape.

Honestly, I think that the market is ripe for a newcomer. Wireless is considered the next "standard" thing and, IMO, that makes an integrated thumbboard a key component for this generation of devices. Problem is, both the Palm OS and the PPC OS were designed around stylus usage, so even the devices that have thumbboards typically require you to pull out the stylus to make use of most apps. I'm not sure what, if anything, Danger is doing these days, but someone should just pay them for their thumbboard and smartly designed GUI and implement it in a more capable device (e.g. - high res screen, both SD and CF expansion).

Eventually Palm, Microsoft, or someone else will arrive at the next big thing. Frankly, I'm disappointed that it hasn't happened yet, because as far as the technology is concerned, it would have all been possible over a year ago.

Scott

[moosemastafoo]

I read the article, and I have one thing to say.... What the Hey were they thinking? How can Palm be as compatible with Office as a PPC. Unless I am missing something, Office and Windows Mobile are made by the same people. I would think that the creators of a program know more about it than... someone else(ie palm). What the people at cnet should have done, was taken a couple of people who don't know jack-squat about handhelds and isn't a real techie, and give them each a state of the line palm and PPC. Then let them decide which they like best. that would give a truly unbiased opinion.

BTW- Palm has a really strong footing someplace in Iowa I think. All the kids at this one school got a tungsten from a school grant. At my school, me and one of my friends are the only people with PPCs (all the other people who have PDAs [including the teachers] have palms), however I am convincing my friend to get an X3 and another one of my friends is getting a PPC in august.

[yslee]

Well, as someone here put it best, when Pocket Word kills the formatting for a very important document, I think you will change your mind, hehe

[Partita]

Well, as someone here put it best, when Pocket Word kills the formatting for a very important document, I think you will change your mind, hehe

such as? (I would venture to say, most people doesn't even use table or footnote) One certainly can keep all original format without editing it if he wants.

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)

If you are concern about round tripping, then get textmaker. It even can do standalone full wordprocessing. (no, DTG can't do what textmaker can do)

[yslee]

Oh Inktoo, get off already. *whacks with Wanker's Club of Doom*

[koriel]

There are indeed some areas where the Palm trumps the Pocket PC (screen resolution being one of them)...

*cough* Toshiba e800 *cough* :wink:

[koriel]

My Toshiba e800 has a resolution of 640x480, which as far as I know is double the res. of the best palm device.

Well, to be fair, Rick did only focus on the OS, not the hardware - if he had, I think it would have been even more interesting (though I'm sure the results would have been the same).

But he does compare screen resolutions in the multimedia round, and he didn't choose the lowest available res Palm compatible screen, so surely he shouldn't have chosen the lowest available PPC screen (as if he would!) :lol: [/i]

[mangochutneyman]

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)


yes


What the Hey were they thinking? How can Palm be as compatible with Office as a PPC. Unless I am missing something, Office and Windows Mobile are made by the same people. I would think that the creators of a program know more about it than... someone else(ie palm)

amazing isn't it? :wink:

[Eraserhead]

A few years ago I bought my first PDA ( a palm IIIe ) and 2 week’s later I bought me a PPC, the Palm was in my opinion a crappy device that could not do one of my need’s. For many months I argued with Palm fanatics that PPC was much better than Palm could ever be and it was only a matter of time that Palm would belly up and Sir Gates would rule the PDA market. Then I got bored in those discussions, I mean “those stupid Palm guy’s just don’t get it”. Since then I have had several devices and now I use two mobile computers PAQ PPC and Psion Series 7 to fulfill all my mobile needs.
Recently I started to read all those forums again and saw that this PPC vs. Palm debate is all but dead. And in a few months when all the PPC 2004 vs. Palm Cobalt comparison will star I think that will only be oil on this flame.

Recently I got the opportunity to spend some time with Palm T3 and Palm wireless keyboard and have to say that it is in many ways the best PDA I have ever used and if they fix a few thing’s my next PDA might just be the successor to the T3.

What I really like about the T3, and the whole Palm market is innovation and more innovation. The best looking and most innovative PDA´s for the couple of years have all been using Palm OS and if Cobalt can deliver what has been promised I think this won’t stop for now.

But I won’t spend my money on Palm unless they fix a few things, such as: flawless multitasking, come out with models with Bluetooth and wifi, good multimedia.

Cobalt seems to fix all those software thing’s so all I’m waiting for is the T4 with Bluetooth and wifi built in.

Now the ball is in Microsoft’s hands, if they wont come out with something really innovative next fall in PPC 2004 ( higher resolution, screen orientation switching, REAL Pocket Office ( They own freaking Office for PC, they kan easily do this ten times better than anyone else.).

But If Microsoft wont make those changes I think I and many other PPC users will go over to the light side, at least until Microsoft will get their act together.

[MikeUnwired]

A fair bout places two fighters in the same weight class against each other. Microsoft has set a fairly predictable benchmark for apps included in ROM that can be easily traced throught the entire class -- WM2003 units for instance have pretty much the same exact look, feel and function across the entire product line.

Palm units have a core OS with some basic PIM apps in common, but even that is iffy as a standard. Take the variances in Calendar app between units in the same 5.whatever strata. My Sony UX40 and Treo 600 produce very different results when you tap the "NEW" button. If I tap "NEW" on a WM2003 PPC, I'll get the same exact results on every unit.

Ok, first, Rick was the real founder of Handheld Computing -- it was called Tap Magazine and it was a Palm OS focused magazine. He was also on the leading edge of the handheld market before Pocket PC even existed. Some might say he got set in his Palm ways long ago. He knows his Palm stuff pretty well. It was only after PPCs took off that Handheld Computing's focus got broadend to include non Palm items. This doesn't mean that Rick is against PPCs or PPC-clueless.

Second, I think a basic comparison should be between newly charged out of the box units. In that case, PPCs would win because they are essentially fully loaded and ready to go. Palm units, for the most part, require installation of bundled applications -- making people jump through a hoop to get even the basic function of a PPC. Sure, a Palm OS unit may include Documents To Go, but with all the installation requirements and such, can someone reasonably be expected to get it up and running with no hassle? I think no in many cases. Some Palm units now ship with the office-friendly apps in ROM, but, since many don't, it would be unfair to set inclusion as the standard.

Some Palm buyers will have to track down apps that come preloaded in ROM on a new PPC -- that's definitely NOT ease of use.

As for having to drag office docs to the sync folder for a PPC? Any person that uses a PPC can simply change their default document folder for Word and Excel to store those files within the PPC documents folder on the desktop -- essentially automating the process of sharing for good (or until you change your PPC's name.)

For multimedia, my UX40 came loaded for bear on the music side, but I had to outfit my Treo 600 with a "free" download of Pocket Tunes that I had to call palmOne to follow-up on the "free" key code weeks after it should have been sent to me via email. Palm users can get a FREE Kinoma Player, but the encryption software costs $ to get your film cuts into the right format. Windows Media Player might be less than perfect, but it's consistant throughout the various players in a user's life -- desktop, tablet, PPC and SmartPhone.

Out of the box, a Pocket PC is a better handheld.

[danesh]

I have been a Palm user for 2 years and have recently shifted to PocketPC. One of the primary reasons I did so was that in the Palm OS (at least in OS 3.5) there is no provision to set alarms to tasks. I agree that PPC allows us to set an alarm only for the start time of the next day, but at least there is a provision. The other reason was the lack of multi-tasking in the Palm OS. I had similar instances where I felt the need for it as were pointed out by earlier commenters.

I am not sure how many Palm users sync with the Palm Desktop software that comes along with the device. I'd think most of them sync with Outlook or Lotus Notes (as most of the corporate offices have either one as the standard). So the point in the review about the Palm Desktop software being novice friendly, stands nowhere.

I have not used TextMaker but received the ClearVue Office Suite with my device and found that it does a very good job of displaying the office documents (including PowerPoint presentations).

As Jason pointed out, we need an unbiased referee for such an event.

[Partita]

A fair bout places two fighters in the same weight class against each other. Microsoft has set a fairly predictable benchmark for apps included in ROM that can be easily traced throught the entire class -- WM2003 units for instance have pretty much the same exact look, feel and function across the entire product line.

huh?
WM2k3 has anything from ruggedize industrial/army grade hardware to PPCPE. What's so unique about OS5.0? Just because it has treo, zodiac, garmin suddenly it's the king of diversity?

Then tapmag, should count WM2k3 models before writing.


Ok, first, Rick was the real founder of Handheld Computing -- it was called Tap Magazine and it was a Palm OS focused magazine. He was also on the leading edge of the handheld market before Pocket PC even existed.

never heard of rick, handheld computing or tap magazine. Sorry. Your magazine guide to PPC software/hardware are so outdated, it's not even funny. Cutting edge it ain't. It's last season ads. compilation.


Some might say he got set in his Palm ways long ago. He knows his Palm stuff pretty well. It was only after PPCs took off that Handheld Computing's focus got broadend to include non Palm items. This doesn't mean that Rick is against PPCs or PPC-clueless.

trust me, he is clueless.


For multimedia, my UX40 came loaded for bear on the music side, but I had to outfit my Treo 600 with a "free" download of Pocket Tunes that I had to call palmOne to follow-up on the "free" key code weeks after it should have been sent to me via email. Palm users can get a FREE Kinoma Player, but the encryption software costs $ to get your film cuts into the right format. Windows Media Player might be less than perfect, but it's consistant throughout the various players in a user's life -- desktop, tablet, PPC and SmartPhone.

well obviously these little facts were not reported in the comparison.



Out of the box, a Pocket PC is a better handheld.

nope, PPC has far better software and far better peripheral options. That makes it better handheld period. Things like h2210 or h4150 are far better than T3 or UX40 by wide margin. It can do more, better and in smaller package.

Let's put it this way: All Cobalt features your magazine is about to cheers and hype are already on PPC 2 years ago.

[Doug Raeburn]

Since I'm affiliated with this site, it's obvious that I weigh in strongly on the Pocket PC side of things. However, I'm very familiar with the Palm platform as well. I currently own a Palm Tungsten E (latest and greatest Palm OS version) and I've owned a Sony Clie T615 in the past. Those two units are among the more "Pocket PC-like" Palm OS units out there. And I will admit that there are many things to like about these units, particularly the Tungsten (a "state-of-the-art" Palm design).

So, based on my experience with both platforms, I do have a few things to say about Mr. Broida's PDA Prizefight. His clear Palm OS bias has lead him to overlook or ignore some advantages of the Pocket PC platform.

One area where he's clearly wearing blinders is in the core applications. Yes, Palm OS 5.2.1 goes a long way toward bridging the gap that existing previously between the two platforms in the area of PIM data. The biggest improvement is the addition of multiple addresses, phone numbers, etc. per contact.

However, when using a PDA in a corporate setting, Palm is still missing some key features that Pocket PC has always had. First and foremost... the core Palm applications still lack the capability of assigning contacts to an appointment. At work, with my Pocket PC, I can perform almost every basic calendar and contact function supported by the enterprise-level uber-PIM Lotus Notes. But even desktop Outlook supports this capability, which makes its omission in the Palm platform all the more glaring.

At work, I use mNotes by Commontime to replicate Lotus Notes data with my Pocket PC. In Notes, when you set up a meeting, you select attendees from your Address book. When you do this from the desktop and replicate, all of those attendees are listed on the Pocket PC. And better yet, you can create a meeting on your Pocket PC, including conveniently selecting all of the attendees from a list, and after replicating, all of this data is in Lotus Notes as well.

Commontime makes a version of mNotes for Palm, but the capabilities that I described above for the Pocket PC are significantly more difficult to use due to the Palm platform limitations. To include contacts as attendees, you have to manually input them in the notes of the meeting separated by delimiters. This is the only way to display and access these attendees, because Palm doesn't support assigning contacts to appointments, so there's no specifically designed data store for such data. In my eyes, this is a significant drawback when using the PDA in a corporate setting.

Another shortcoming... while Pocket PC permits assigning many categories to a single item (appointment, contact, etc.), Palm allows only one category. So if you simply wish to keep your work and personal items separate, Palm has already maxed out its categories. Whereas I can further categorize my work appointments as project, architecture or administrative. And further categorize personal data such as my nephew's birthday as a card and gift occasion. And these examples merely scratch the surface. Categories can be used in many ways to fine tune the organization of your data, and Pocket PC leaves Palm in the dust here.

So these two areas that are so important to the corporate power user are big wins for Pocket PC.

In conclusion, I contend that when you start to push the platforms to their limits in heavy duty business use, you'll find advantages in Pocket PC over Palm that aren't apparent in light duty use. And based on the descriptions of his usage, I'm almost certain that Mr. Broida's tests are based on light duty use.

[Spiral]

"Windows Mobile may have an edge when it comes to Windows PCs, but Microsoft offers zero support for Macintosh systems. All PalmOne models--even the $99 Zire 21--ship with a Mac version of Palm Desktop, so they're ready to roll, right out of the box. To synchronize a Pocket PC with a Mac, you need additional software."
The competition in desktop went to Palm, yet he says Windows Mobile has an edge when it comes to Windows PC's. I assume that the reason the competition goes to Palm would be because of mac support. But how about sony, which afaik, has no mac support?

In round 1 he compares ease-of-use, and how long it takes to get up and running. PPC is much easier to get up and running because of all the built-in programs, Palm is a bit more user-friendly, he's comparing two different things in the title and round description.

The advantage in number of applications is pretty equal these days. PPC has fewer software overall, but you won't find many applications in only black and white, which is possible on a palm. My friend got a Sony Nx80, he was complaining about the lack of emulators, and he thought the freeware "sucked." It's pretty even in software.

And connectivity should have been a criteria.

[wxrman]

...and for the users of the Kyocera 7135 as used by Verizon...

how many resets can you perform on your palm-os based phone? :roll:

So many for me... that I forced Verizon to give me the i600... free. :twisted:

And I have never looked back. The i600 is SOO much better and is only a smartphone, but the fact that I dropped a palm device for a windows device is significant in itself.

Glad I did it! :D

[MikeUnwired]

A fair bout places two fighters in the same weight class against each other. Microsoft has set a fairly predictable benchmark for apps included in ROM that can be easily traced throught the entire class -- WM2003 units for instance have pretty much the same exact look, feel and function across the entire product line.

huh?
WM2k3 has anything from ruggedize industrial/army grade hardware to PPCPE. What's so unique about OS5.0? Just because it has treo, zodiac, garmin suddenly it's the king of diversity?

Maybe I wasn't clear enough. While there are ruggedized PPC units and such out there, even those have the same core PPC application set. They may have thick frames of rubberized plastic around the screen, shock mounted boards, massive batteries, etc... but, to be a Pocket PC, the unit has to meet certain benchmark standards that make ALL units comparable at that level. The benchmark for Pocket PC certification is fairly robust, unlike the PalmSource benchmark (oops, they don't apparently have one -- that's why the hardware is so hard to compare or support.)

Look at San Disk's SDIO WiFi card. It has been out for PPC since August(?) -- it's out and it works in ALL 2002 / 2003 PPCs with SDIO slots. They can't release a Palm version because there isn't a basic WiFi standard or even a minimum power standard to the SDIO slot. There may be hope in a lower power consumption card, but the market's still waiting.

I know Rick and I can tell you he's not clueless. Why do you feel the need to take pot-shots at the man? Didn't your Mother tell you "If you can't say something sice about someone, don't say anything at all"? You may not agree with his assessment, but that doesn't mean you can / should choose to make disparaging comments. You can attack his assumptions, facts and focus, but don't flame the man.

nope, PPC has far better software and far better peripheral options. That makes it better handheld period. Things like h2210 or h4150 are far better than T3 or UX40 by wide margin. It can do more, better and in smaller package.

Nope, I don't agree because there are too many variables in an individual user's needs and configuration requirements to say that a PPC is better in all cases. I said that the out of the box PPC models generally, on a head to head basis, win.

For instance, I have tried every current SmartPhone, Pocket PC Phone and Palm OS phone on the market today. When looking at the utility and ergonomics, the Treo 600 is the best. There are things I wish were better, bigger or more functional, but the physical configuration of the 600 is best for me. For you, I don't know, but for me, the 600 is the combination of features, advantages and seemingly necessary phone-converged compromises that I'm willing to work with. That doesn't mean that a new unit, like the iPAQ 6600 may come out and change my mind, but for today, that's what works best for me.

[MikeUnwired]

By the way, there are approximately 1140 themes included in the total software for download on PocketGear.com (38 pages with 30 files each). There's nothing wrong with that or anything -- just a fact.

[AhuhX]

I know Rick and I can tell you he's not clueless. Why do you feel the need to take pot-shots at the man? Didn't your Mother tell you "If you can't say something sice about someone, don't say anything at all"? You may not agree with his assessment, but that doesn't mean you can / should choose to make disparaging comments. You can attack his assumptions, facts and focus, but don't flame the man.


I actually agree with alot of what you are saying SW, but this isn't PDABuzz, and you arn't a moderator here, so your pretty far from being able to moderate what anyone says about one of your mates, or an article he has written. They can call him clueless, or his article clueless as much as they dang like. It really isn't that offensive, and a journalist should have thicker skin than that; actually I think most journalists come with scales, not skin. hiak hiak. ;)

Face it, Rick produces the same uninformed flamebait comparison article every couple of years, gets alot of traffic for CNet and offends alot of people. I just have to wonder if the article is deliberatly written in such a manner as to generate that heat. :roll:

I'm not sure what point you were trying to make in regards to the number of themes out their for the PPC platform? This is a software product category the Palm platform doesn't even support out of the box due to it's archaic user interface. Is that the fact you are trying to point out?

[SHC]

I've just retured to PPC after using a Sony Clie for 6 months. If the Palm OS is so easy to use, why is the best selling Palm software ZLauncher?, If office compatability is so good why do most palm users go out and buy Docs to go or Wordsmith, not to mention Datebk5 or Agendus? The file system is rubbish. The only thing about palm thats better is I didnt have to soft reset once. Oh, and alarms work every time.
It seems to me though that users tend to stick with the OS they first used and are comfortable with. As for me i'm glad i'm back with pocket pc.

[Kacey Green]

A fair bout places two fighters in the same weight class against each other. Microsoft has set a fairly predictable benchmark for apps included in ROM that can be easily traced throught the entire class -- WM2003 units for instance have pretty much the same exact look, feel and function across the entire product line.



Out of the box, a Pocket PC is a better handheld.

nope, PPC has far better software and far better peripheral options. That makes it better handheld period. Things like h2210 or h4150 are far better than T3 or UX40 by wide margin. It can do more, better and in smaller package.

Let's put it this way: All Cobalt features your magazine is about to cheers and hype are already on PPC 2 years ago.

I don't see what you're getting worked up about you're agreeing w/ them. :lol:

[madbart]

Everytime one of these articles get writen the "justifications" posts start.
Lets face i, the guy has a vested interest in the Palm and it continued success and has writen his article accordingly.

After all who is going to buy his books if he comes out and say that a WM device is a better unit. :?

You would imagine that he has had his fair share of "free" Palm products over the years.

He is probably sitting backing laughing at all the kerfuful that he has cause! :lol:

[Ed Hansberry]

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)


yes
But then it has the same problem Pocket Word does. If you save changes, it trashes the formatting. It is only when you use the conduit does the formatting remain in tact.

On the PPC side, just install Textmaker if Word is your deal. :D

[Eraserhead]

Face it Docs to go is 100 times better than Pocket word and excel, and it also has PowerPoint presenter which does not come with the PPC.

It's funny that people always say "just buy textmaker" as a word editor, it’s a 50$ program, the tungsten e cost's only 200$ and comes with docs to go. I want real office apps, real multimedia app´s, real web browser and real e-mail built in, I mean my Psion Revo had all those things, except the e-mail application 4 years ago.

P.s. talking about twisting the facts when SuccessWizard said:

basic comparison should be between newly charged out of the box units. In that case, PPCs would win because they are essentially fully loaded and ready to go. Palm units, for the most part, require installation of bundled applications

What moron cant install app´s from CD's, it's not like its nuclear science.

What I like with the palm platform is variety the devices are so different you can find a device that suit's your need in a good price range, all PPC look similar and the Thosiba e800 isn’t doing nothing for me, it's huge, ugly and did I say huge ? What I want is a PPC with 4" screen, landscape switch built in Bluetooth and wifi and 640X480 in a small package.

[Stephen Beesley]

Generally I hate wading in on topics like this, but....... :D

Just recently I have been reading a lot of PDA reviews many of them for new Palm devices. The one that has really taken my eye is the Tungsten T3 - and in particular its screen. I know that the next version of Windows Mobile is supposed to include native landscape support and proper support for 640x480 displays like on the e800, but that is still in the future while the T3 is now. I really like is that it can rotate and/or go from 320x32 to 320x480 "on the fly".

Actually the display issue has got me thinking about another area that I think the current versions of PPC/WM are being bettered by both Palm and the Linux crowd is overall GUI design. The sharp hi-res icons and GUI elements in the Hi-res Palms and Sonys are really gorgeous. But my favourite is the GUI on the Zaurus devices - even though they have the same screen resolution as most PPCs (320x240 on a 3.5inch screen) the icons etc just seem to be sharper and more pleasing to the eye. Okay so I know that the full 640x480 experience is probably not far off, but without a redisgn of the GUI elements then it is still going to end up looking quite dated.

My now venerable Jornada is due for replacment sometime this year and I am hoping that there will be a Windows Mobile hardware/software combination about that will deserve my cash, but if not I can already see a couple of other contenders on the market.

Mind you there is one thing that will probably keep me in the PPC camp no matter what. Since my Newton days I have been hooked on proper HWR (none of this grafitti or character recognition rubbish) and for the moment the PPC with Transcriber (or Calligrapher) is the only platform that comes any where near meeting this requirement.

[Palmguy]

Face it Docs to go is 100 times better than Pocket word and excel, and it also has PowerPoint presenter which does not come with the PPC.

It's funny that people always say "just buy textmaker" as a word editor, it’s a 50$ program, the tungsten e cost's only 200$ and comes with docs to go. I want real office apps, real multimedia app´s, real web browser and real e-mail built in, I mean my Psion Revo had all those things, except the e-mail application 4 years ago.

P.s. talking about twisting the facts when SuccessWizard said:

basic comparison should be between newly charged out of the box units. In that case, PPCs would win because they are essentially fully loaded and ready to go. Palm units, for the most part, require installation of bundled applications

What moron cant install app´s from CD's, it's not like its nuclear science.

What I like with the palm platform is variety the devices are so different you can find a device that suit's your need in a good price range, all PPC look similar and the Thosiba e800 isn’t doing nothing for me, it's huge, ugly and did I say huge ? What I want is a PPC with 4" screen, landscape switch built in Bluetooth and wifi and 640X480 in a small package.

First of all I agree with SW...if you are going to install stuff on the Palm to make up for it's shortcomings than you should most certainly install 3rd party stuff on the PPC to make up for it's shortcomings. I.E. a task manager.

As far as what you want, the e800 is the closest thing. It has easy resolution and orientation switching via a free program called MyVGA (after all, what moron can't install a simple little .exe?). You ain't gonna get a 4" VGA screen in anything too much smaller anytime soon anyways. A large battery is critical for a device with a screen like the e800. The screen itself is quite large as well. Ugly is in the eye of the beholder anyways...I think my 4150 looks a lot better but when you account for the screen that doesn't really matter.

Also, many PPCs include Presentation viewers...some iPAQs come bundled with them, the e800 has it built-in. Sure it's third party but so is DTG so what again is your point?

[Zensbikeshop]

As in...? :?

My boss asked me to setup his Treo 600 for him, so I used it for a week or so and it was horrible. Off course, I am used to PocketPC, but it felt so clunky and akward to use, it just didn't feel natural to me. I assume which ever OS you use first, stays your favorite...

Nope!

I started with Psion (Epoc now Symbian), went to Palm, back to Epoc, Palm, PPC, Palm, PPC and now Palm again.

I like both OSs but at the moment the PPC OS is being let down by DULL DULL DULL hardware. PPCs either are too big or have crap screens - I'd have bought a 4155 but then I saw the screen - YELLOW!

And as for screen resolution well....

I'm using a T3 at the mo but will probably get the new Clie TH55 because I wanna try out the new Organiser app. I love 320x480 screen res.

After that we should be into WM2004 and hopefully some interesting hardware.

I think with WM2004, Palm OS6 (Cobalt = dumb name) and Symbian (should that be Nokia) devices hitting the streets this year we're in for a bumper crop of cool and desirable toys sorry tools :wink:

[Eraserhead]

Palmguy wrote:
...if you are going to install stuff on the Palm to make up for it's shortcomings than you should most certainly install 3rd party stuff on the PPC to make up for it's shortcomings

There is a huge diffrence in 3rd party software that comes free with your PDA and then 3rd party software you have to go out and buy. Textmaker cos's 50$ and thats just 50$ I want to spend on somthing else for my PDA, those apps should be good enough in the first place.

[/url]

[Zensbikeshop]

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)


yes
But then it has the same problem Pocket Word does. If you save changes, it trashes the formatting. It is only when you use the conduit does the formatting remain in tact.

On the PPC side, just install Textmaker if Word is your deal. :D

Never had any problems with DTG6 - it works superbly.

I have my CV on my Palm and needed to get it to an agency pronto with some changes.

Quickly edited it on the Palm and emailed it over ccing myself - no issues whatsoever. DTG6 has less problems with Word docs than Star Office!

[Palmguy]

Palmguy wrote:
...if you are going to install stuff on the Palm to make up for it's shortcomings than you should most certainly install 3rd party stuff on the PPC to make up for it's shortcomings

There is a huge diffrence in 3rd party software that comes free with your PDA and then 3rd party software you have to go out and buy. Textmaker cos's 50$ and thats just 50$ I want to spend on somthing else for my PDA, those apps should be good enough in the first place.

[/url]


I.E. a task manager

Also, many PPCs include Presentation viewers...some iPAQs come bundled with them, the e800 has it built-in. Sure it's third party but so is DTG so what again is your point?

I wasn't specifically addressing the Word/Excel side of things because I have no problem with PWord or PExcel....but I do realize that Textmaker is $50.

[Mithras61]

1) So PPC doesn't sync with MAC. From what I have seen, that means they're missing out on about 7% of the PC market. I'm sorry, but I just can't grant that Palm is better than PPC because of this.


2) I use a PPC (iPAQ h3635 - I know - what an antique!). My wife uses a Palm (IIIc, I think). She complains all the time about how hard hers is to use. She keeps telling me I need to upgrade so she can have my hand-me-downs. She mostly uses the calendar functions, but has a few other things she wants to do that her Palm won't, and my PPC will (I'm thinking birthday present here, but that's off topic).


The real question that only one other person here pointed out isn't which one will or won't do something, since you can get comparable apps for both. The real question is which one meets your needs for doing what you want with the least amount of "where can I find the software to...".

I admit I'm a MS techie type, but my personal experiences with the Palm in the store convinced me that it wasn't what I wanted. The PPC seemed much easier to use and did what I needed pretty much out of the box with a minimal learning curve. For me, the PPC wins hands down. Is it right for you? Well, that depends. What do you want to do with it?

[Foo Fighter]

These "shoot out" comparisons always leave one side of the fence licking their wounds, but in this case one small detail jumps out as a red flag. Rick Broida makes his living off of PalmOS, and that IMO disqualifies him as a credible arbitrator. CNET mismanaged this review from the start by entrusting it to one person, especially one who holds a bias and personal financial interest in one platform. The right way to do this would have be to have at least 2-4 reviewers collaborate on the project, narrowing down each point. While I do agree with many of Rick's conclusions, I discredit him as a legitimate source. I wouldn't trust him for fair balanced reviews anymore than I would trust Ed to write a Palm review. :wink:

[possmann]

:pukeface2:

[Partita]

Palmguy wrote:
...if you are going to install stuff on the Palm to make up for it's shortcomings than you should most certainly install 3rd party stuff on the PPC to make up for it's shortcomings

There is a huge diffrence in 3rd party software that comes free with your PDA and then 3rd party software you have to go out and buy. Textmaker cos's 50$ and thats just 50$ I want to spend on somthing else for my PDA, those apps should be good enough in the first place.


what? so tell me how much does it cost for a palm to match basic PPC feature such as media player and file manager? add to that a handwriting app. Calculate TOTAL cost please. The low end PPC is actually cheaper and can do more than Palm. Remember first time X5 comes out with $199 model? Palm was scrambling like nothing, even the T|E are still somewhat pathetic. (no voice recorder and built in media player? )

further what exactly do you need in word processing that pWord is not good enough. Be specific! For some reason I got the feeling you don't even use wordprocessing in handheld beyond typing 'dear john' letter.

Now, is Textmaker pricey? sure it is. but it is a high end app that has far better feature than ANY palm wordprocessor. If a user want serious full feature wordprocessing, PPC is the only choice. DTG feature is so dysmal it's not even funny. (picture/symbols within a table? embbed diagram? multilanguage... etc)

again:
-Palm handheld hidden costs are enormous
-Palm software library is pathetic
-Palm peripheral options are SAD and almost non existent.

[Partita]

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)


yes
But then it has the same problem Pocket Word does. If you save changes, it trashes the formatting. It is only when you use the conduit does the formatting remain in tact.

On the PPC side, just install Textmaker if Word is your deal. :D

Never had any problems with DTG6 - it works superbly.

I have my CV on my Palm and needed to get it to an agency pronto with some changes.

Quickly edited it on the Palm and emailed it over ccing myself - no issues whatsoever. DTG6 has less problems with Word docs than Star Office!
...total nonsense.

unless your resume contains table, a vector diagram how to built thermonuclear warhead and a paste of ancient mayan manuscript, I am willing to bet your resume is a plain .doc file just like anybody elses (Different font size, bold/itallic, indentation, attachment of picture)

pWord does that.

[Foo Fighter]

again:
-Palm software library is pathetic
-Palm peripheral options are SAD and almost non existent.

Oh come on, that is a ridiculous statement. :roll:

[Partita]

again:
-Palm software library is pathetic
-Palm peripheral options are SAD and almost non existent.

Oh come on, that is a ridiculous statement. :roll:

No, it's not, and I can prove it foo. (trust me. lol.)
IT IS pathetic and peripherals are sad.
are you ready foo?

[Steven Cedrone]

Just to change the subject a little: I just realized that the article says "Rick Broida is the co-author of How to Do Everything with Your Palm Handheld, 4th Edition, and the upcoming 101 Killer Apps for Your Pocket PC."

Rick Broida is going to writing a Pocket PC book? Does this mean the Palm sites will be posting about how biased he is towards Pocket PC in a year or two? :wink:

Steve

[Partita]

101 killer app for ppc? probably it's a rip off from last december pocketpcmag list

PPC apps are moving so fast, it's just rediculous publishing a magazine list like that let alone book.

[Talldog]

Rick Broida is going to writing a Pocket PC book? Does this mean the Palm sites will be posting about how biased he is towards Pocket PC in a year or two?
All I know is that when I switched from Palm to PPC, I was going to let my subscription to HHCM lapse. Then they said they were going to start covering PPC, so I renewed. I was terribly disappointed. While they technically did cover PPC, the magazine remained so heavily Palm-biased that I didn't renew the next time around. IMO, Broida and Johnson never made any real attempt to get serious about PPC, at least in the pages of that magazine.

[Foo Fighter]

Steven, there is more to the story than just his books. At the very first Mobius conference, Rick accused Microsoft of bribery when it gave away free PPCs to attendees. CNET did a front page story on him. AND...he went on to say that EVERYONE felt the same way, which was a lie. He made some subtle accusations that editors who accepted these free "gifts" were bought off, this included Steve Bush, Joel Evans, Wes Salmon, Julie Streitelmeier, etc.

There was also a little bit of a conspiracy going on. Turns out the editor at CNET that wrote the story, Richard Shim, was a friend of Rick's. It was a rather sneaky underhanded tactic by Broida. He attempt to speak as the voice for EVERYONE, and manipulated the story for his own purposes. This caused a HUGE backlash by other online editors. I know Wes Salmon was furious.

[Partita]

I am going to redo the 10 round match and see who is winning. (oh no no..I am a fair judge too. :twisted: )

POS, ready to get pummeled.

[Steven Cedrone]

Steven, there is more to the story than just his books. At the very first Mobius conference, Rick accused Microsoft of bribery when it gave away free PPCs to attendees. CNET did a front page story on him. AND...he went on to say that EVERYONE felt the same way, which was a lie. He made some subtle accusations that editors who accepted these free "gifts" were bought off, this included Steve Bush, Joel Evans, Wes Salmon, Julie Streitelmeier, etc.

Oh, believe me, I remember all the stuff flying from the first Mobius conference. I was just taken aback that he would even be writing a Pocket PC book!

Steve

[yslee]

Oh come on, that is a ridiculous statement. :roll:

Just learn to ignore them, hehe, I've gotten quite used to them.

[jeffmd]

I think the multimedia comparison should have been a TKO. PPC has software to play, mp3, wmv, wma, ogg, mpeg1, divx/xvid, wav, mod (and some of its verants), rm.

How many of those can palm play? ^^

[Zensbikeshop]

Can DTG 6.0 do that? read word .doc directly? (no, not using conduit)


yes
But then it has the same problem Pocket Word does. If you save changes, it trashes the formatting. It is only when you use the conduit does the formatting remain in tact.

On the PPC side, just install Textmaker if Word is your deal. :D

Never had any problems with DTG6 - it works superbly.

I have my CV on my Palm and needed to get it to an agency pronto with some changes.

Quickly edited it on the Palm and emailed it over ccing myself - no issues whatsoever. DTG6 has less problems with Word docs than Star Office!
...total nonsense.

unless your resume contains table, a vector diagram how to built thermonuclear warhead and a paste of ancient mayan manuscript, I am willing to bet your resume is a plain .doc file just like anybody elses (Different font size, bold/itallic, indentation, attachment of picture)

pWord does that.

I'm sure Pocket Word will do that.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no need for conduits to maintain the formatting of the document.

Also, I would NEVER include a photo on a CV - I want to GET an interview!! :wink:

[Zensbikeshop]

I think the multimedia comparison should have been a TKO. PPC has software to play, mp3, wmv, wma, ogg, mpeg1, divx/xvid, wav, mod (and some of its verants), rm.

How many of those can palm play? ^^

All of them.

Using 3rd party software but then PPC would have to also.

I don't use my PDAs for video/audio so was quite surprised to see how well supported the POS is - I remebered how many players were available for PPC.

[Partita]

I'm sure Pocket Word will do that.

The point I was trying to make is that there is no need for conduits to maintain the formatting of the document.

Also, I would NEVER include a photo on a CV - I want to GET an interview!! :wink:

DTG doesn't maintain complete format of .doc. Sorry. You may argue majority of format, but not all. The fact that DTG doesn't support wide range of symbols, drawing and unicode should ruin a lot of more intricate documents.

And again, DTG is the best top end wordprocessing POS can muster, while pWord is freebie bundled. The PPC top end wordprocessor is Textmaker.

[Partita]

I think the multimedia comparison should have been a TKO. PPC has software to play, mp3, wmv, wma, ogg, mpeg1, divx/xvid, wav, mod (and some of its verants), rm.

How many of those can palm play? ^^

All of them.

Using 3rd party software but then PPC would have to also.

I don't use my PDAs for video/audio so was quite surprised to see how well supported the POS is - I remebered how many players were available for PPC.

why don't you show us any Palm software that can do .mod, .wma, .wmv. and .rm before saying 'All of them'. As of now, I have to conclude you are taking our of your other end.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Oh, believe me, I remember all the stuff flying from the first Mobius conference. I was just taken aback that he would even be writing a Pocket PC book!

He can see which way the wind is blowing and wants to get in on the action?

[Steven Cedrone]

He can see which way the wind is blowing and wants to get in on the action?

Heh! Maybe! :wink:

Steve

[Foo Fighter]

Steven, is it just me...or is your propellor spinning faster? 8O

[Steven Cedrone]

Steven, is it just me...or is your propellor spinning faster? 8O

Tension in the forums makes it spin faster! Bluetooth posts, Palm vs. Pocket PC posts... It's amazing it hasn't spun right off the hat today! :wink:

Well, that and beer makes it appear to spin faster! :lol:

Steve

[Foo Fighter]

LOL. Ok, I just came from the pub...maybe that's the explanation. :lol:

[drac]

I agree with Foo about the error in letting a sole, Palm-biased author hold sway.

However, the article was sure to be crap anyway. Given the wide variance of uses to which owners put their PDA's, it is my observation that general-purpose PPC-vs-PalmOS which-OS-is-better comparisons are all crap.

I have found that most new, basic users seem to prefer PalmOS to PPC; but, as already noted in this thread, PalmOS creaks and cracks under heavy business load in ways that PPC doesn't.

To each his own.

[Zensbikeshop]

why don't you show us any Palm software that can do .mod, .wma, .wmv. and .rm before saying 'All of them'. As of now, I have to conclude you are taking our of your other end.

Sorry I don't feel the need to show you; can't you research it yourself if you care that much.

I know that there is software on both platforms that will play all the formats you list - but as I don't want to play any of them I really couldn't care less.

As I said I'm platform agnostic but in a discussion that focusses on bias I just wanted to ensure that incorrect statements are corrected.

[Partita]

why don't you show us any Palm software that can do .mod, .wma, .wmv. and .rm before saying 'All of them'. As of now, I have to conclude you are taking our of your other end.

Sorry I don't feel the need to show you; can't you research it yourself if you care that much.


I search and It doesn't exist. You can search all you want and it still won't pop up.

[Wiggster]

why don't you show us any Palm software that can do .mod, .wma, .wmv. and .rm before saying 'All of them'. As of now, I have to conclude you are taking our of your other end.

Sorry I don't feel the need to show you; can't you research it yourself if you care that much.

I know that there is software on both platforms that will play all the formats you list - but as I don't want to play any of them I really couldn't care less.

As I said I'm platform agnostic but in a discussion that focusses on bias I just wanted to ensure that incorrect statements are corrected.

If you know that there is software that plays them all, it's not research. I'm trying Handago, TUCOWS, and other sites, and I certainly can't find any WMA or WMV support at all, and I couldn't find MOD either. There is a RealPlayer for Palms. PalmOne (http://www.real.com/realmobile/palmone.html).

I've nothing really to add to this thread, as I'm rather neutral in it as well. I just wanted to "ensure that incorrect statements are corrected" :mrgreen:

[Partita]

The palmone realplayer doesn't do .rm stream

[billbuckner]

Some palm guy was trying to convince me to buy a Tungsten|E. :roll:
Me: "Does it play .WMA?
Guy: (Looking at me like I was Satan) "That's a Windows format!"
Me: "Does it play it?"
Guy: "No... why would you want to use WMA?"
Me: "Cuz I have .WMA files that I like?"
Guy: "But it's a WINDOWS format!"
Me: "So?"
Guy: "Windows is bad!"
Me: :?: "Never mind. How about mpeg?"
Guy: (Laughing) "Nobody uses mpeg!"
Me: :huh:
Guy: "Everyone uses Real format!"
Me: "I think Real lacks in quality"
Guy: "How can you say that? Real is much better than any Windows format!"
Me: "Uhh... mpeg isn't a windows format."
Guy: "Oh."
Me: "So... can it play mpeg?"
Guy: "No. That's what's intuitive :roll: about Palm. They only include the things you need, and nothing you don't."
Me: "I need mpeg"
Guy: "Trust me. A few days with Real, and you'll forget mpeg."
Me: :mecry:

[Sheynk]

Some palm guy was trying to convince me to buy a Tungsten|E. :roll:
Me: "Does it play .WMA?
Guy: (Looking at me like I was Satan) "That's a Windows format!"
Me: "Does it play it?"
Guy: "No... why would you want to use WMA?"
Me: "Cuz I have .WMA files that I like?"
Guy: "But it's a WINDOWS format!"
Me: "So?"
Guy: "Windows is bad!"
Me: :?: "Never mind. How about mpeg?"
Guy: (Laughing) "Nobody uses mpeg!"
Me: :huh:
Guy: "Everyone uses Real format!"
Me: "I think Real lacks in quality"
Guy: "How can you say that? Real is much better than any Windows format!"
Me: "Uhh... mpeg isn't a windows format."
Guy: "Oh."
Me: "So... can it play mpeg?"
Guy: "No. That's what's intuitive :roll: about Palm. They only include the things you need, and nothing you don't."
Me: "I need mpeg"
Guy: "Trust me. A few days with Real, and you'll forget mpeg."
Me: :mecry:

HAHA... I love when you end up knowing more about a product than the salesman..... Best Buy should reorganize their labour force

[Zensbikeshop]

If you know that there is software that plays them all, it's not research. I'm trying Handago, TUCOWS, and other sites, and I certainly can't find any WMA or WMV support at all, and I couldn't find MOD either. There is a RealPlayer for Palms. PalmOne (http://www.real.com/realmobile/palmone.html).

I've nothing really to add to this thread, as I'm rather neutral in it as well. I just wanted to "ensure that incorrect statements are corrected" :mrgreen:

There's the obvious ones like Real Player, Aero Player and Pocket Tunes for MP3, Ogg and of course Real.

PsyTexx Audio Player supports MP3,OGG,WMA,MOD,XM,IT,S3M,WAV

MMPlayer supports the majority of the formats listed and some I've never heard of http://www.mmplayer.com/features.php

I can't say if they are any good or not but the support is there for watching movies on tiny screens...

[Partita]

PSytexx is not listed as compatible with newer handheld, last update aug 2002. In fact a user post it doesn't function in 4.2.
http://www.softonic.com/ie/22257/PsyTexx+MP3

The biggest joke of course Psytexx 'support' those files. What does it mean? lol....
right... it doesnt' play it directly, but a conversion. Please eh? be serious.

mmplayer supporting all those format?
it's listed under 'planned'. And it is not even a stable player for current format. (check out the complain rate in their forum)

That is what you have to show? It was a joke right?

[Partita]

Here is the magnificant Psytexx audio player page from palmgear.
http://www.palmgear.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=software.showsoftware&SID=40C50FF5-CF18-ADC1-A227F63F9BF2553A&PartnerREF=&prodID=43512

PS. this sort of software is exactly why POS is such a joke.

[Zensbikeshop]

Woah! Easy there Partita!

Boy you really do feel strongly about how big a 'joke' the Palm OS is.

I hope that you and your Pocket PC will be very happy together.

[Kacey Green]

why don't you show us any Palm software that can do .mod, .wma, .wmv. and .rm before saying 'All of them'. As of now, I have to conclude you are taking our of your other end.

Sorry I don't feel the need to show you; can't you research it yourself if you care that much.

I know that there is software on both platforms that will play all the formats you list - but as I don't want to play any of them I really couldn't care less.

As I said I'm platform agnostic but in a discussion that focusses on bias I just wanted to ensure that incorrect statements are corrected.

I thought you needed a liscense from MS to use the windows media logo?
hence they wouldn't give it to a cometitor.
partners and non competitors are different

[Kacey Green]

Some palm guy was trying to convince me to buy a Tungsten|E. :roll:
Me: "Does it play .WMA?
Guy: (Looking at me like I was Satan) "That's a Windows format!"
Me: "Does it play it?"
Guy: "No... why would you want to use WMA?"
Me: "Cuz I have .WMA files that I like?"
Guy: "But it's a WINDOWS format!"
Me: "So?"
Guy: "Windows is bad!"
Me: :?: "Never mind. How about mpeg?"
Guy: (Laughing) "Nobody uses mpeg!"
Me: :huh:
Guy: "Everyone uses Real format!"
Me: "I think Real lacks in quality"
Guy: "How can you say that? Real is much better than any Windows format!"
Me: "Uhh... mpeg isn't a windows format."
Guy: "Oh."
Me: "So... can it play mpeg?"
Guy: "No. That's what's intuitive :roll: about Palm. They only include the things you need, and nothing you don't."
Me: "I need mpeg"
Guy: "Trust me. A few days with Real, and you'll forget mpeg."
Me: :mecry:

real makes me want to destory stuff
why the helll do they assume that they can change my default player w/o asking me ( how do you make itunes stop this at least real has an option 50 menus deep)
why do they assume my settings are wrong
whose flagship product is a beta anyway?
why would i want to use the resource hogging start center
why would i want to default to a format that none of my players support naitve out of box and what about the ones that aren't flashable (they don't run apps excep the OEM's)

[Partita]

Woah! Easy there Partita!
Boy you really do feel strongly about how big a 'joke' the Palm OS is.
I hope that you and your Pocket PC will be very happy together.

So is there or is there not a .mod, .rm .wma, and .wmv player?

[nosmohtac]

This kind of misinformation has been going on since the beginning of time.
It doesn't get me that upset, but there are a lot of good points in this thread.

I didn't read all twelve pages, but this is what I would have liked to see introduced in the bout:

1) Having a device that (with support from the OEM) can be upgraded to the latest OS. (Palm OS6?...Buy a new device.)

2) The available accessories for each. Once you get past the basics, (wireless and keyboard/thumbboard) PPC definitely wins. Even with the SD wifi card from Sandisk, you run into the problems of the fragmented OS.

3) I'm not going to get in to the software availability argument. I don't even care how many apps are available for each platform. What I care about is, that the ones that are available can do what I need them to do.

4) I would have liked to see a comparison of some similar models and price comparisons. ( such as the 2215 and the T3. At least he didn't state that the palm OS devices are a lot less expensive)

I've converted many people from palm to PPC, not because I think that palm is inferior. It's just that when I show people what the PPC can do in comparison to the Palm, and discuss a few of the weaknesses of palm, they see that they have more options with a PPC. I have even told many people that I work with, that a palm device would likely suit them just fine, and have recommended the entry level Tungsten. I still see some of these people go with a PPC, because even though they aren't as geeky as me, they think that if they really take a liking to the device, they would like to have more options available to them without having to try to resell the device and upgrade to PPC and start over on the learning curve from palm to PPC.

[iant54]

I'm a fairly solid PPC user (currently own iPAQ 5550 and iPAQ 3970, plus Jornada 820). Because people know me as a bit of gadget-freak I often get asked what handheld device is best because they want to buy one. Instead of pointing them at one device or another, I e-mail them a set of weblinks for both Pocket PCs and Palms, although because my bias is toward the former, I've probably not selected the best sites for the latter.

My view is that, because I'm not going to be the one using the resultant purchase, then it's not down to me!