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View Full Version : MyVGA: Freeware Toshiba e800 Screen Resolution/Orientation Switcher


Janak Parekh
02-16-2004, 11:15 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://myvga.sourceforge.net/' target='_blank'>http://myvga.sourceforge.net/</a><br /><br /></div>A number of tools have been released to support landscape and/or 480x640 mode on Toshiba e800 series devices. Here's a neat-looking free one. It also has features to change font types/sizes and scrollbar sizes.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/parekh-20040216-MyVGA.jpg" /><br /><br />The real question is, when are other OEMs going to start deploying 480x640 devices? ;)<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> The program is no longer available. Discussion as to why is in <a href="http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?threadid=100505">this BH thread</a>.<br /><br /><b>UPDATE:</b> The URL to MyVGA is back in the thread, as Pocket PC Tools is now hosting it. Read my explanation as to why in the thread. - <i>Jason</i>

Duncan
02-16-2004, 11:31 PM
The real question is, when are other OEMs going to start deploying 480x640 devices? Late May/early June. Why - is it supposed to be a secret? :wink:

Jonathon Watkins
02-16-2004, 11:34 PM
You tease! 8)

huangzhinong
02-16-2004, 11:55 PM
I feel much released when I found the source is "geekzone and jkendrick". There is a long thread in brighthand.com about the copyright of this wonderful freeware. I read jkendrick's posts there and worried about his attitude. Now seems he changed his position.

Janak Parekh
02-17-2004, 12:00 AM
I feel much released when I found the source is "geekzone and jkendrick". There is a long thread in brighthand.com about the copyright of this wonderful freeware. I read jkendrick's posts there and worried about his attitude. Now seems he changed his position.
8O I'm just crediting him because he mentioned it in an interesting Off-Topic thread -- http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24540 -- about ResFix vs. MyVGA. I also read the BH thread and had a tough time putting it in this post, so I didn't. I don't mean to imply that jkendrick did or did not endorse this program by mentioning it. I'll leave further discussion on the "IP" issue to that thread.

--janak

Anthony Caruana
02-17-2004, 12:26 AM
I'm going to ask a dopey question.

If this app was installed to another device, say an iPAQ 2210, would you be able to use it in the same way as NYDITOT or JSLandscape?

Just wondering...Is anyone game to try it? I would but I jsut don't have the time to mess around over the next couple of days.

huangzhinong
02-17-2004, 12:27 AM
I'm going to ask a dopey question.

If this app was installed to another device, say an iPAQ 2210, would you be able to use it in the same way as NYDITOT or JSLandscape?

Just wondering...Is anyone game to try it? I would but I jsut don't have the time to mess around over the next couple of days.

It won't work. It's hardware rotation, using ATI chips.

arnage2
02-17-2004, 12:46 AM
wm 2004 will almost certainly bring native vga/landscape support. I would expect to see the first devices with such specs in june or july.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 12:49 AM
I feel much released when I found the source is "geekzone and jkendrick". There is a long thread in brighthand.com about the copyright of this wonderful freeware. I read jkendrick's posts there and worried about his attitude. Now seems he changed his position.

I never had a position. If you notice I posted the very first news item about MyVGA on PocketPC Tools and it's still there. I find it to be a great program and it's still the one on my Toshiba. The Brighthand folks (and I'm one of them too) get awfully testy quickly.

But, to be clear I never came down on one side or the other of this issue. It's not a fortunate situation and I think both sides should have done things differently.

Can't we all just get along :)

Gerard
02-17-2004, 02:42 AM
Just went to http://myvga.sourceforge.net/ and guess what? "The project is closed, sorry." That's all. Seems copyright and intellectual property matter to the SourceForge people at least.

I haven't seen the Brighthand thread. Guess I'll have a look for it now. But I do know that Deez put one heck of a lot of work into that thing, and having a big chunk of his code adopted by someone else without compensation or even proper acknowledgement just doesn't seem right to me.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 03:04 AM
Wow, I never saw that coming. I don't think he stole anything but felt he should have credited Deez's work at least. Guess Sourceforge saw it differently.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 03:19 AM
I've just been informed that the author of MyVGA has removed his site and the software over the infringement concerns.

Janak Parekh
02-17-2004, 06:10 AM
I haven't seen the Brighthand thread. Guess I'll have a look for it now. But I do know that Deez put one heck of a lot of work into that thing, and having a big chunk of his code adopted by someone else without compensation or even proper acknowledgement just doesn't seem right to me.
There was no code theft. Read the BH thread. Sounds like an increasingly confusing situation. :| I'll post an update.

--janak

Partita
02-17-2004, 06:35 AM
If Toshiba hadn't screw this one up, this wouldn't have happened.

Gerard
02-17-2004, 06:41 AM
Sorry for jumping to that conclusion. Well, actually it was one of the mods who emailed me about it yesterday, and was expressing dismay over the was a chunk of code was appropriated... if it's not the case, I'll learn about it as my bedtime reading. Whoa! 181 posts so far! I'll have to grab the printable version if PIE will handle it and look tonight.

Jacob
02-17-2004, 06:47 AM
I read the thread on Brighthand.
Most of the arguments that MyVGA was a violation was because the developer of the previous app actually did the hunting down of the registry entries and so he worked real hard to research the registry entries necessary and all the developer of MyVGA did was look at the keys created and copy that.

Frankly, he simply reverse engineered the product. He found out what the app did and replicated the behavior. It happens all the time and there's not really anything wrong with it.

Gerard
02-17-2004, 06:59 AM
I don't know about Deez' EULA, or if he even has one, but isn't it usually the case that one paragraph in the standard agreement when using shareware is that you will not reverse engineer, decompile, or otherwise examine the code? Or is that just in cases where a charge is made? Seems to me that Microsoft's legal team, for instance, would have a bit of a problem with people reverse engineering Windows XP and then releasing a freeware version based on elements of that code.

jnperu
02-17-2004, 07:03 AM
"NOT" a stable app...........

Janak Parekh
02-17-2004, 07:07 AM
I don't know about Deez' EULA, or if he even has one, but isn't it usually the case that one paragraph in the standard agreement when using shareware is that you will not reverse engineer, decompile, or otherwise examine the code?
Unfortunately, I'm no lawyer. As far as I know, this would amount to a "clean room" reengineering, which I don't think can be forbidden - but I may be wrong. The author of this program took a look at the registry settings affected and duplicated the changes. Now, there are registry programs out there that are free, and those that are commercial. If I take a commercial one, learn the correspondences, and make a free version, am I breaking the law? I don't think so, but again, IANAL. ;)

--janak

Jacob
02-17-2004, 07:08 AM
The way I see it is that they looked at the effects the code had and then created original code to replicate the effects.

For example, there was a case in court fairly recently. A garage door opener manufacturer created a new model that used a remote.

Another company that makes universal remotes reverse engineered their remote so as to make a universal remote that was compatible with their garage door openers.

They didn't replicate the exact product, but the created something that replicated the effects.

The original company sued the company that created the universal remote - and lost since the company that reverse engineered their product did not use their design or any insider information to create their product.

I wouldn't see it as illegal to create a web browser that completely mimicked IE's rendering - as long as I did it without IE's code. I would say the same for XP - except the fact that MS has trademarked parts of their UI. IF I replaced those parts, but created a completely compatible OS, I wouldn't consider it wrong or illegal.

Gerard
02-17-2004, 09:20 AM
Okay, I've slogged through the 192 posts in that ridiculous thread now (admittedly in the tub, so it wasn't so bad), and my opinions on this are now better informed. My apologies for the earlier comments which shouldn't have been posted without me looking at the issue closely.

It seems to me that hugbug, the developer of MyVGA, is a decent fellow with superior coding skills. Deez has helped the e800 crowd, and Toshiba's sales, by his earlier release of RezFix, and he's been paid for a lot of copies (though it seems he hasn't said how many). Now he's making a lot of noise because someone else spotted how he did it, saw a few numbers in the registry which he was using, and took advantage of this information to write a superior program. So Deez found some things by digging in the registry which Toshiba released and made a program and some money out of it. Hugbug saw some things which Deez had found and used them to make a better program, smaller, not needing the massive eVB runtimes installed to make it work, and released it as a freeware with open source.

Now hugbug has decided to remove MyVGA and has stated he's abandoning the project, due to pressures from Deez and others in a Brighthand thread. What a farce. It's a different program, sharing 24-bits of data, and the only crimes here were that hugbug found in Deez' results what Deez undoubtedly would have been happy to find more easily in Toshiba's code. It's a me first/no one else gets to have any sort of deal. Playground stuff.

You know, I didn't enjoy reading the Deez threads to begin with. They always seemed to degenerate into something ugly. But I did read them, because I am interested in the e800. Now this nonsense happens, and I'm disgusted. There's a language problem, a couple of bad decisions regarding protocols and politeness, and suddenly it's all out war. Good grief.

I just hope hugbug dude gets over his huff and re-releases his code, and goes on to make it better still.

Spiral
02-17-2004, 09:32 AM
Whew, I read through page 10->20. And I agree, it seems that MyVGA was in some ways superior to Resfix with no need for EVB and a (supposedly) better GUI. I think Deez should learn how to improve his product from MyVGA... I would have been more interested, but i don't have an e800 :D

snowlion
02-17-2004, 12:14 PM
this is no different than lotus saying microsoft copied their spreadsheet...in fact i would that was more of a wholesale copy. original microsoft windows is based on wholesale copies of someone elses user-interface design.

"looking up registry entries" is not copy rightable.

myvga looks like a superior product and the author should make it available.

and if i was deez - i'd stop squawking and improve the app by getting "inspired" by myvga's interface/size etc.

kamikun
02-17-2004, 03:21 PM
Okay, I've slogged through the 192 posts in that ridiculous thread now .... I just hope hugbug dude gets over his huff and re-releases his code, and goes on to make it better still.

If you've had a chance to go back they're up to 22 pages now with no immediate sign of things slacking off soon.

But I think the developer, hugbug, made his response after your post. If I understand him correctly (his English is good but this is getting to be an awfully legalistic discussion) he is withdrawing all support and promotion of the app. He does not feel he has done anything wrong but is doing this because he doesn't want the grief that Deez and several of Deez' supporters seem to be heaping on him.

He states quite directly that the app was published under GPL guidelines so, even if wanted (which he doesn't), he couldn't revoke it from use and further modification by the open source community. He has even offered to provide source code (but not exe's) to those who request it.

He further states that although he is now distancing himself from the project anyone who wishes is welcome to take up the banner and run with it.

Seeing the level of all-out flame war that's been sparked over there I think I understand where he's coming from.

I thoroughly agree that hacking the registry, even if what you're doing is using registry values that someone else discovered through time and effort, is not wrong in either spirit or letter of programming norms. By their very nature, registry values are not hidden, encrypted or proprietary (sp?)... there is therefore no expectation on the part of Deez, Toshiba, or Joe User that use or modification of those values would represent a violation of intellectual property rights or a breach of trade secrets.

If hugbug had to decompile code and then copy it into his app to make it work then, yes, that's a violation. But figuring out what OPEN REGISTRY setting makes your computer do what you want it to do, while commendable and proof of your hacker voodoo skills, is not information that you can claim as your own once you publish it either for free or for a price.

Anyone with basic technical knowledge can see the modification so the person who created the hack cannot reasonably expect for his method to remain secret. In fact, as you said, hugbug ADDED functionality to deez' registry hack by writing his own code that did a few other things the original did not.

This is all terribly important because it affects everyone who has ever opened their registry to edit or alter a setting. I'm sure Toshiba and ATI would be very interested in knowing that someone is dangerously close to claiming they have some kind of ownership over environmental settings of the card they produced.

It would like me telling corporate America that I have conducted extensive tests and done hours of lab research with live subjects and so can prove that the optimal range of temperature for the human body is 70 - 73 degrees F. And by extension of the cost and effort of my research, no one else has the right to set their thermostats within that range without sending a small royalty my way. I'm sure Honeywell would sit quietly for that.

/rant

Icebaron
02-17-2004, 03:46 PM
Reading the discussion here and the massive flamewar going on at BH... all I can say is....

I love PPCT.

Really, all this squabbling over a few registry settings is about the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. There are tons of little tweak programs out there that replicate the same registry hacks. There have been since Windows 3.1. I have been using and writing little tweak programs since windows 95 and have NEVER seen anyone complain "you stole my registry setting!! " I can guarantee I will never be purchasing, or even using, any software made by this "Deez" character.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 04:13 PM
The author of MyVGA has recently stated that he pulled the s/w out of some sort of consideration for Deez and ResFix. He went on to state that the s/w is definitely open source under the GPL and that anyone is free to use, modify, and distribute the s/w.

To this end we intend to host the latest version of MyVGA on our web site since it had the "affected" registry values changed anyway. It should be available shortly.

What a mess and handled poorly by both parties involved IMHO.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 04:40 PM
MyVGA version 1.02 (latest release) is now available on our web site. You can find the file for download in the e80x forum (in case the following link is removed).

http://www.pocketpctools.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=903

Steven Cedrone
02-17-2004, 04:53 PM
URL's restored...

Steve

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 04:58 PM
Steve, I understand and respect that totally. We did a lot of investigating and soul searching before putting the file up. Thanks.

Noel
02-17-2004, 04:58 PM
Thanks James!
:wink:

Noel

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 05:16 PM
Actually I should have added that we were waiting for a public statement from the author of MyVGA that even though the s/w was pulled it was still open source under the GPL. He did that and encouraged others to continue his work, thus our posting.

Jason Dunn
02-17-2004, 07:00 PM
We've put the URL back, and here's why:

Registry entries are not considered unique knowledge and can't be covered under any sort of copyright. I don't have an e800, nor have I tried either of the programs being discussed here, but I think there's clear precedent here: everything from ClearType to Xscale over/underclocking has been discovered via registry or simple settings changes, and there are both freeware and shareware versions of those applications on the market now.

Based on what I've read, the author of MyVGA simply took something first discovered by the author of Resfix, and MyVGA turned out better, and free. Nothing lasts forever, and I see no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the author of MyVGA. Yes, the author of Resfix is likely going to lose money now, but it's called competition - Resfix now has to get much better, and offer more, or it will perish. Harsh, but true - I face the same thing with Pocket PC Thoughts every day, wondering if/when another site will come along and do what we do, only better...which drives me to make sure that we're always trying to improve.

huangzhinong
02-17-2004, 07:10 PM
We've put the URL back, and here's why:

Registry entries are not considered unique knowledge and can't be covered under any sort of copyright. I don't have an e800, nor have I tried either of the programs being discussed here, but I think there's clear precedent here: everything from ClearType to Xscale over/underclocking has been discovered via registry or simple settings changes, and there are both freeware and shareware versions of those applications on the market now.

Based on what I've read, the author of MyVGA simply took something first discovered by the author of Resfix, and MyVGA turned out better, and free. Nothing lasts forever, and I see no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the author of MyVGA. Yes, the author of Resfix is likely going to lose money now, but it's called competition - Resfix now has to get much better, and offer more, or it will perish. Harsh, but true - I face the same thing with Pocket PC Thoughts every day, wondering if/when another site will come along and do what we do, only better...which drives me to make sure that we're always trying to improve.

I like your reason, Jason.

I am just wondering why so easy and reason doesn't make sense to some people, esp the resfix author? bargainpda.com covers the same story in their frontpage. Unlike previous posts, they didn't show respects to resfix author any more.

TheezNutz
02-17-2004, 07:22 PM
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=61&t=18759

This site was posted on BH. It supposedly has all the versions of MyVGA, but when I try to go there I get a message in Chinese, not sure what it means.

Jason Dunn
02-17-2004, 07:28 PM
I am just wondering why so easy and reason doesn't make sense to some people, esp the resfix author?

Likely because it involves him losing money for something that he worked hard at - when that happens, it skews one's perspective. It happens to me every time someone tells me they're blocking my banner ads :roll: - I see red. :evil: I read through some of the posts at Brighthand, and boy, did that thread get crazy. Don't they have moderators over there? 8O Anyway, I can't blame the author of Resfix for reacting that way he did - he feels threatened and angry, but I'm sure he'll cool off after a few days. The author of MyVGA doesn't have anything to feel ashamed of in giving a great tool to the Pocket PC community.

Jason Dunn
02-17-2004, 07:34 PM
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=61&t=18759

You can get MyVGA from here:

http://www.pocketpctools.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=903

BTW, your posting name is a bit insulting - there's no need to make this into a personal vendetta against the author of Resfix. If you'd like to change your posting name, please contact admin@.

TheezNutz
02-17-2004, 07:41 PM
Oh come on...............if you weren't a mod you know you'd be chuckling. :wink:

That site only has 1.0.2.

I want 1.0.0 and 1.0.1 as well. Thanks though.

juni
02-17-2004, 07:54 PM
----stupid comment deleted---- :)

klinux
02-17-2004, 08:18 PM
http://www.mobile01.com/topicdetail.php?f=61&t=18759

This site was posted on BH. It supposedly has all the versions of MyVGA, but when I try to go there I get a message in Chinese, not sure what it means.

After each link, there is an explanation of what the zip contains i.e. 1.00 bin(ary), 1.00 source, 1.01 bin(ary), 1.01 source, etc.

yuit
02-17-2004, 08:45 PM
Based on what I've read, the author of MyVGA simply took something first discovered by the author of Resfix, and MyVGA turned out better, and free. Nothing lasts forever, and I see no evidence of wrongdoing on the part of the author of MyVGA. Yes, the author of Resfix is likely going to lose money now, but it's called competition - Resfix now has to get much better, and offer more, or it will perish. Harsh, but true - I face the same thing with Pocket PC Thoughts every day, wondering if/when another site will come along and do what we do, only better...which drives me to make sure that we're always trying to improve.

what was done here may not be illegal, but it is unethical. Consider, for example, if I were to buy a copy of tweaks2k2 or cetuner and to change each setting, and find the corresponding registry key change. If I were to then use the same registry key settings in a program I write and distribute, I would have done nothing illegal, but I doubt that anybody would think that I had done the "right" thing. I would have spent no time discovering / researching / testing the registry keys, but just copied from another's work. This also hurts the community, because the developers of tweaks2k2 would have no incentive to continue to find new tweaks or to improve their product, and without them as a source of information, my program could no longer be improved, since I have no clue how to find new tweaks. I would neither be competing or innovating, just plagiarizing another's work.

The ethical thing I could do would be to independently look through the registry, public domain sources, and come up with my own registry settings, which I would then have to test and verify. It would be perfectly valid for me to then distribute this program, even if there are many common tweaks between my program and tweaks2k2, because I arrived at my program *independently*.

Jason, in your case, it would be akin to some other site coming along, *copying* all of your news postings, and having all the benefits that the subscribers enjoy, free for everyone.

edit: also, from what I've read, all the functionality of myVGA comes from the settings copied from resfix.

Dave Potter
02-17-2004, 08:59 PM
If I understand him correctly (his English is good but this is getting to be an awfully legalistic discussion) he is withdrawing all support and promotion of the app. He does not feel he has done anything wrong but is doing this because he doesn't want the grief that Deez and several of Deez' supporters seem to be heaping on him.


Nice bully tactics. This really does sound like kids on a playground. My advise to the author of MyVGA - ignore the abuse and re-open the project and keep making it better and better - eventually driving ResFix out of business. The strong survive - the weak perish. Whining and complaining only proves how weak you are.

huangzhinong
02-17-2004, 09:21 PM
what was done here may not be illegal, but it is unethical. Consider, for example, if I were to buy a copy of tweaks2k2 or cetuner and to change each setting, and find the corresponding registry key change. If I were to then use the same registry key settings in a program I write and distribute, I would have done nothing illegal, but I doubt that anybody would think that I had done the "right" thing. I would have spent no time discovering / researching / testing the registry keys, but just copied from another's work. This also hurts the community, because the developers of tweaks2k2 would have no incentive to continue to find new tweaks or to improve their product, and without them as a source of information, my program could no longer be improved, since I have no clue how to find new tweaks. I would neither be competing or innovating, just plagiarizing another's work.

The ethical thing I could do would be to independently look through the registry, public domain sources, and come up with my own registry settings, which I would then have to test and verify. It would be perfectly valid for me to then distribute this program, even if there are many common tweaks between my program and tweaks2k2, because I arrived at my program *independently*.


It's not true. There are a lot of reg settings coming from MS or other big company's software. People install it and uninstall it and compare and get the setting. So is it ok to get the tweak from big company but guilty from small companies?

If you are talking about tweak2k2, the author is in brighthand.com all the time and he is very friendly guy. While I admit most of tweaks may come from him first, there are still a lot of them are reported in brighthand by users and then be implemented by him.


Jason, in your case, it would be akin to some other site coming along, *copying* all of your news postings, and having all the benefits that the subscribers enjoy, free for everyone.

Looks like you don't understand this case at all. Nobody copied another people's code, nobody. If you want to copy PPCT headline stories without permission, we call it illegal act.



edit: also, from what I've read, all the functionality of myVGA comes from the settings copied from resfix.

Unfortunately definitely you didn't use any of the programs. There are a lot of features only existing MyVga. Go to try it. Don't jump on conclusion without any investigation.

Can you specify where did you read "all the functonallity of ...."?

yuit
02-17-2004, 10:25 PM
If you are talking about tweak2k2, the author is in brighthand.com all the time and he is very friendly guy. While I admit most of tweaks may come from him first, there are still a lot of them are reported in brighthand by users and then be implemented by him.

Exactly. He does the work of coming up with new tweaks, and collecting information from public domain sources (brighthand forums, etc). I'm sure this takes a lot of time, so he charges for his program.

Do you think it would be right for me to get his program and just copy the tweaks in his program and make my own program from that ? He may have spent many, many hours collecting and researching his tweaks, and it will only take me a couple of minutes to get the information from his program....


Looks like you don't understand this case at all. Nobody copied another people's code, nobody. If you want to copy PPCT headline stories without permission, we call it illegal act.


myVGA took the work put into resfix. btw, I don't think it would be illegal to copy the PPCT headlines, as most stories here are just links to other sites with the actual information. The work that goes on here is in collecting the information, sorting through it and posting the relevant stories.


Unfortunately definitely you didn't use any of the programs. There are a lot of features only existing MyVga.

what exactly can it do that resfix cannot ? what resolution modes can it do that resfix cannot ?

______________________________

To be honest, I do think that $10 is too much for what resfix does, and would have been thrilled to see a better alternative, but myVGA just takes the work put into resfix and packages it differently. A truly independent implementation is what's needed.

Jacob
02-17-2004, 10:32 PM
Exactly. He does the work of coming up with new tweaks, and collecting information from public domain sources (brighthand forums, etc). I'm sure this takes a lot of time, so he charges for his program.


Is your argument just that the author of ResFix put work into it so it's not okay to mimic the tweaks?

What if he didn't put much work into discovering the tweaks?

I don't see how he did anything but legitimately reverse engineer the product to find out what it does - then create a competing app that does the same thing.

Do you think that the companies that create universal remotes are immoral? This is essentially what they do.

Jason Dunn
02-17-2004, 10:53 PM
If nothing else, the lesson learnt here should be obvious: any developer that creates and sells an application that essentially automates registry hacks will undoubtedly be toppled by someone offering the same thing for free. It happened with Xscale over/underclocking, and it's happening again now. I don't want to disparage the work of the person who created Resfix, but let's face it, if a few settings were all it took to "clone" his program, it wasn't a program to begin with - it was a preset tweaker. We're not talking actual code here, nor reverse-compiling. That's something we need to keep in mind.

And from what I've read, MyVGA was an improvement in many ways, not just an un-talented hack: it was a sub-100K EXE file with a nice UI, and that obviously took some skill. In the same way, someone could (and some do) clone our posts and links, but that's only part of the equation - the community, the design, the functionality, the personality of Pocket PC Thoughts is what make people come back.

If I were the author of Resfix, I'd focus instead on making my application even BETTER than MyVGA and making it worth paying a few bucks for.

yuit
02-17-2004, 11:01 PM
Is your argument just that the author of ResFix put work into it so it's not okay to mimic the tweaks?

The way it seems to me is like this:

Person A spends many hours researching and testing values to put into his (commercial) program, to switch resolutions, and orientation.

Person B obtains a copy of Person A's program, copies down the values used by said program, and releases his own version.

it seems pretty clear cut to me.

I'm curious as to how you people would feel if hugbug had decided to charge money for his program ?


What if he didn't put much work into discovering the tweaks?


then it should be easy to duplicate his work, without having to copy them from his program.

note.... I personally think $10 is too much for what resfix does, but hey, I also think vaja cases are overpriced. Whatever the market will bear, I guess. If you don't like it don't buy it, just don't take the work put into it.


I don't see how he did anything but legitimately reverse engineer the product to find out what it does - then create a competing app that does the same thing.

well he did reverse engineer it, perhaps legitimately, but it is unethical, IMHO.


Do you think that the companies that create universal remotes are immoral? This is essentially what they do.

well if "universal remote company B" bought
universal remote company A's" remote and proceeded to duplicate that remote exactly, then yes.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 11:01 PM
Exactly Jason. I'll bet the starting point for writing ResFix was Toshiba's own resolutoin switcher, limited though it is. You see, it's not the amount of work that someone puts into it but the end product. That is copyrightable. That can be protected. But not the OS settings it makes. It's been claimed that to come up with the unique settings that worked in ResFix took many, many hours of trial and error.

The author of MyVGA produced a unique set of parameters and released the final version in just a couple of hours after the initial outcry went out by Deez. Which means that in version 1.02 there is not a single byte that can be attributed to ResFix or anybody other than MyVGA.

Jacob
02-17-2004, 11:14 PM
I'm curious as to how you people would feel if hugbug had decided to charge money for his program ?
[quote]

I'd buy the one that is better. I wouldn't feel bad at all.

[quote="yuit"]
well if "universal remote company B" bought
universal remote company A's" remote and proceeded to duplicate that remote exactly, then yes.

Then I guess you won't be buying any universal remotes ;)

Reverse engineering of this type happens everywhere and is part of every competing product. Why do you think you see one competing product come out with a feature that their competitor came out with just months beforehand?

Because they buy that product, see how it works and replicate that functionality - it's the same thing.

Duncan
02-17-2004, 11:26 PM
Person A spends many hours researching and testing values to put into his (commercial) program, to switch resolutions, and orientation.

...and, whether they like it or not, that work can be used and built-on by others.

Software has been that way for a long time - ask the long forgotten people who developed the first spreadsheet programs and had to work everything out for the first time - only to see Lotus and MS build on their hard work.

Person B obtains a copy of Person A's program, copies down the values used by said program, and releases his own version.

Pefectly ethical. The values in question are public domain. How the values get used by a program is an entirely different matter.

I'm curious as to how you people would feel if hugbug had decided to charge money for his program ?

Indifferent? Makes no odds - MyVGA seems the better program so it would be worth paying for IF it had come at a price.

well if "universal remote company B" bought
universal remote company A's" remote and proceeded to duplicate that remote exactly, then yes.

Ah - but HugBug didn't do that. He did, at most, the equivalent of finding out the codes that a remote uses and then put them into a remote that does more, is smaller, better laid out and generally nicer looking. Something that happens with runiversal remotes all the time!

I'll say this mind - Deez had my respect for what he did and I felt the rabid attacks on him for charging for ResFix 2.0 were appalling and unfair. His petulant and uttlerly childish reaction to MyVGA has cost him my respect - and I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one. If he'd had any sense he would have responded to MyVGA by making his solution better....

yuit
02-17-2004, 11:26 PM
Then I guess you won't be buying any universal remotes ;)

I would assume that universal remotes are made by buying the original products that the remote is intended to control and duplicating the functions of the oem remote. If everyone just went about copying each other, where do the original codes code from ?

Did you know that cartographers often include erroneous city names so that they can catch people who plagiarize their work, instead of doing their own ?

This seems like a clear cut example of plagiarism to me.


Reverse engineering of this type happens everywhere and is part of every competing product. Why do you think you see one competing product come out with a feature that their competitor came out with just months beforehand?

Because they buy that product, see how it works and replicate that functionality - it's the same thing.

most eulas have clauses forbidding reverse engineering, and I doubt that reputable companies do this.

It is perfectly valid and legitimate to come up with an independent implementation of a competitors feature from just the description. There is no need to reverse engineer the product.

Jacob
02-17-2004, 11:43 PM
I would assume that universal remotes are made by buying the original products that the remote is intended to control and duplicating the functions of the oem remote. If everyone just went about copying each other, where do the original codes code from ?

Did you know that cartographers often include erroneous city names so that they can catch people who plagiarize their work, instead of doing their own ?

This seems like a clear cut example of plagiarism to me.

I know about cartographers, but that's a different issue altogether. If someone copied the map then they are copying the whole content of the product. In this case they did not copy the content of the product at all.

The original codes are invented by the company that creates the original - such as Sony, etc.. The universal remote companies take these and look at the signals they emit and create a device to mimic that.

One such company was recently taken to court... and the company that created the universal remote won.


most eulas have clauses forbidding reverse engineering, and I doubt that reputable companies do this.

It is perfectly valid and legitimate to come up with an independent implementation of a competitors feature from just the description. There is no need to reverse engineer the product.

Many legitimate companies do this by looking at the product and seeing how it works - not just by feature description.

For example, have you noticed that Microsoft provides a converter to convert documents created by WordPerfect into MS Word format?

How do you think they did that? Do you think they just asked the company that coded that version of WordPerfect for the format??

NO! They reverse engineered the format to create a converter. This is the same thing. They didn't use their code or reverse engineer their code to find the source, but they did figure out the output of that code by using the product and created something that can do the same thing: read word perfect files and in this case, create the very same registry keys.

CorwinB
02-17-2004, 11:46 PM
First, I'd like to mention I'm extremely pleased by the general atmosphere of the PPCThoughts forums.

hen it should be easy to duplicate his work, without having to copy them from his program.

The 1.0.2 version of MyVGA fixes the problem, since it doesn't use the same values anymore. IMHO, the very small time elapsed between Deez's "ripoff" accusation and the release of the 1.0.2 version proves that either :
- this ATI stuff is not rocket science and could be done by anyone willing to do it
- The explanation offered by Hugbug (that he knew how the settings worked, but chose those settings because they had already been tested by the community of E800 users) is true

Or both :)

most eulas have clauses forbidding reverse engineering, and I doubt that reputable companies do this.


As a paying customer of ResFix, I went back to the provided EULA, and it doesn't even mention the reverse-engineering stuff. In any case :
- reading INI files and registry values is not reverse engineering
- Hugbug comes from Europe, where reverse engineering is legal

Anyway, the whole thing for me boils down to this : if Toshiba was to crack down on Deez for "hacking" "their" registry values, the whole community would defend Deez, and rightly so. So harassing Hugbug for doing the exact same thing strikes me as rather hypocritical...

huangzhinong
02-17-2004, 11:46 PM
what exactly can it do that resfix cannot ? what resolution modes can it do that resfix cannot ?.

MyVga can set and save font, scroll bar for every video mode and some applications, which itself is the project of another great people in brighthand.com. Can resfix do that?

________________________

To be honest, I do think that $10 is too much for what resfix does, and would have been thrilled to see a better alternative, but myVGA just takes the work put into resfix and packages it differently. A truly independent implementation is what's needed.

I don't think $10 is too much before MyVga come into being. I don't think there are a lot of values to be available for resolution switch, Just like there are two possiblity to overclock some xscale chip, one of which is dangerous to memory and may not be useful at all, for some device only one is possible. So how do you create "a truly independent implementation" once the only values are claimed ownership by somebody else?

You need go back and check what the disputing values are. Somebody is claiming some setting, which is vital for resolution switch and only belong to toshiba and ATI, into his invention. Wake up, guys. Don't be so childlish. The resfix author lost all my respect and my potential upgrading money.

jkendrick
02-17-2004, 11:57 PM
The reason I only posted version 1.02 of MyVGA on PPC Tools was because it contains not a single byte of anything from ResFix. That said, I believe that there is nothing wrong with the earlier versions of MyVGA either. I don't believe he "took" anything not available to anybody legally. I have not posted those earlier versions because I felt they are unnecessary and doing it the way I have is above reproach and limits exposure to our web site.

I am also certain that there is no way that Deez could have developed ResFix at all without looking at and using the registry information, ATI settings, and startup routine codes that Toshiba installed on the e800 in the first place. There is no documentation anywhere provided by either Toshiba nor ATI to work from so he had to have done the EXACT same thing he has accused the author of MyVGA of.

Do I doubt that Deez put a lot of effort into his work? No. Do I doubt that hugbug put a lot of effort into his work? No. Are they very different programs that do essentially the same thing? Yes, with the caveat that MyVGA adds additional features that ResFix lacks.

Compete with one another fine but don't tear other products down, Deez.

yuit
02-18-2004, 12:53 AM
I know about cartographers, but that's a different issue altogether. If someone copied the map then they are copying the whole content of the product. In this case they did not copy the content of the product at all.

well it seems like the same thing to me.. the entire content of the product (the res switchers) is the registry settings, which myvga copied wholly. Without the registry settings, no res switch.

The original codes are invented by the company that creates the original - such as Sony, etc.. The universal remote companies take these and look at the signals they emit and create a device to mimic that.

One such company was recently taken to court... and the company that created the universal remote won.

yes, and as I stated before this is perfectly valid. Unfortunately, this is not what happened here. This is more like a universal remote control manufacturer taking a shortcut, and instead of obtaining an original product to get the signals from, just copying the signals from a competing universal remote.

In any case, I think we'll just have to agree to disagree on this issue :)

pivaska
02-18-2004, 01:13 AM
Is there a place/thread where questions such as font sizing and how to apply these using MyVGA may be addressed?

Jason Dunn
02-18-2004, 01:15 AM
Is there a place/thread where questions such as font sizing and how to apply these using MyVGA may be addressed?

It's obviously not here :lol: - too much hostility going on - I'd suggest the Toshiba forum:

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewforum.php?f=32

DanielTS
02-18-2004, 01:38 AM
Neophytes nowadays are pretty erudite, especially those who joined forums since February 15. :mrgreen:

What occurs on February 15 ? 8)

LarDude
02-18-2004, 01:52 AM
Oh no!...It looks like the extremists have gotten tired of BH and now want to invade PPCT.

Really? Ethical or unethical for registry tweaks? "Get a life!"
It's sounding like religion:
"I worship the Deez-deity, not the hum-bug!"
"No, no, it's pronounced toe-mat-toe, not toe-may-toe!"
"Which way do you unroll the toilet paper?"

To the "extremists":
Everyone's concept of what's ethical is different. Please spare us your preachings. In the end, the thing that has a "material" effect is what's legal. (Code-developers "voluntarily" withdrawing their contributions, regrettable though it may be, is the price we pay for this rigorous, quantitative, and accountable system).

Since there appears to be unanimity (or at least a consensus) on the legality of the issue, I'd say "case-closed".

Steven Cedrone
02-18-2004, 02:10 AM
Alright, I want everyone to take a break from posting to this thread. Since I know that this won't be done voluntarily, I am going to temporarily lock this thread.

Update: thread unlocked. Please keep it civil!

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

Jacob
02-18-2004, 04:48 AM
I know about cartographers, but that's a different issue altogether. If someone copied the map then they are copying the whole content of the product. In this case they did not copy the content of the product at all.

well it seems like the same thing to me.. the entire content of the product (the res switchers) is the registry settings, which myvga copied wholly. Without the registry settings, no res switch.

Well, ResSwitch still has the registry settings. ResSwitch doesn't OWN the registry settings. There isn't anything patentable, copyrightable about them. There isn't anything immoral about looking at information or using information that isn't owned by anyone - these registry settings fall into that category.

Hugbug did NOT copy anything proprietary about Resswitch.


yes, and as I stated before this is perfectly valid. Unfortunately, this is not what happened here. This is more like a universal remote control manufacturer taking a shortcut, and instead of obtaining an original product to get the signals from, just copying the signals from a competing universal remote.


There would not be anything wrong with them taking the signals from a competing universal remote! It would be the same thing as using the original.

jkendrick
02-18-2004, 05:49 AM
We have put an official MyVGA support site up on PocketPC Tools to help the continuing efforts to add to this great open source program. There will be further developments to announce in the next few days but a great software developer has graciously agreed to spearhead the efforts to add new features to MyVGA. This forum will be the place to report bugs in the existing code, suggest new features you think would be useful, and just share ideas about the Toshiba and MyVGA.

Feel free to visit and watch this great piece of software get even better! We do ask that anyone posting to this forum please register with the site. Since the purpose of this site is to gather all the information and resources in one place the developer has asked that all discussion about MyVGA go through this forum. We are also looking for additional help so if you''d like to help with the coding please post in the forum.



MyVGA Support Forum (http://www.pocketpctools.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=index&c=8&sid=45f3b019bf1a3e814e8d16d083714aea)

See you there! :)