PalmSource: "Yeah, Microsoft Has The Right Strategy!"

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1045-5152914.html">http://news.com.com/2100-1045-5152914.html</a><br /><br />"SAN FRANCISCO--PalmSource plans to announce next week a revamped operating system strategy designed to get its OS included on a broader array of cell phones, including lower-priced models. Under the plan, the company will simultaneously develop multiple versions of its OS and aim them at different parts of the cell phone market. By maintaining development of multiple versions, PalmSource is hoping to cover more bases in the market for smart phones and other devices. Historically, Palm OS-based devices have been offered only in the most expensive class of cell phones, which cost several hundred dollars."<br /><br />While Microsoft does have some Pocket PC Phone devices, which are a full blown version of Pocket PC with phone hardware, they have all along known that having a separate OS written from the ground up would be needed for cell phones, and they knew it for several reasons. Pocket PC is a great platform for mobile computing, but PDA software isn't necessarily the best for <i><b>all</b></i> forms of mobile computing. The UI should be single finger navigable with one hand. You should never need a stylus to do things on your phone. The Treo, despite all of the accolades from the press and loyalty from existing users, has not been a market success. It hasn't been a failure to be sure, but PalmSource now recognizes that to be successful on a phone, you must design for the phone, not take a PDA and "phoneize" it.<br /><br />So now PalmSource heads down the path Microsoft blazed back in 1999 when they realized that the MS SmartPhone OS, then called Stinger, couldn't be a Pocket PC stripped down. It had to start fresh, building a UI that was familiar to Windows and Pocket PC users, but 100% dedicated to a voice centric device. PalmSource's phone OS will build off of the core from OS 6 (which will be renamed) much like Microsoft's software starts with Windows CE, but the end result will be quite different. Different enough, I suspect, that a new software market will have to be developed just as Microsoft has had to nurture for the SmartPhone platform, one that has no touch screen, one that will need a comparatively tiny screen, a smaller RAM footprint, a less beefy processor, etc. Welcome to 1999 PalmSource! :wink:

[RobPPC]

Ina Fried obviously hasn't tried a Treo 600. It's VERY nice, works without a stylus, has great battery life and a sync that actually works.

Seems to me that it's "Welcome to 2001 Ina Fried!"

[reidme]

It's not the same as Microsoft's strategy at all, because most Palm OS software will run on either version of the Palm OS. I don't think any Smartphone apps will run on Pocket PC or vice versa without recompiling.

[Ed Hansberry]

Did either of you read the post? The Treo hasn't set the world on fire. Like Riedme's post: The Treo 600, now that's a Blackberry killer. (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=174005&highlight=#174005) You have to sell a lot of units, more than the competition to kill it. I don't think the Blackberry is even coughing at the site of the Treo 600, much less dying from its presence.

And do you really think that when Palm starts making these multiple OSs based on OS6 that all Palm software will work on all devices? Of course not. Try using Agendus without using a stylus. Or on a screen with ~100X200 pixels that is more likely to appear on a cell phone.

Also speculating, but I wonder if part of what is in this all new from the ground up rewrite (David Nagal's words, not mine) if they totally abandon OS4 code? I doubt they want a cellphone having to put up with the overhead of OS4 dragonball compatiblity.

[cdunphy]

Microsoft Pocket PC and Microsoft Smartphone share some common elements, but the have a completely incompatible user experience paradigm. Its not just a matter of recompiling Pocket PC applications - Smartphone applications actually need to be entirely redesigned.

Our strategy couldn't be more different.

Though we are going forward with two versions of the OS (a low end and a high end, essentially) -- both versions maintain a constant user experience paradigm, and they are for the most part software compatible with each other.

And - BOTH versions of the OS are suitable for and will be used in phones.

This isn't a matter of splitting the Palm OS into phone and PDA versions like Microsoft did. This is a matter of offering our licensees even more flexibility and ability to differentiate by allowing the creation of both inexpensive lower-end devices, and richer high-end devices.

I think Handspring, Samsung, GSL, and Kyocera have all demonstrated just how good of a phone you can build using the current OS.

And it's only going to get better.

- chris

[pdaisdead]

It's not the same as Microsoft's strategy at all, because most Palm OS software will run on either version of the Palm OS. I don't think any Smartphone apps will run on Pocket PC or vice versa without recompiling.

Good point. Hansberry never misses an opportunity to spin every story as "Palm is Dead". :roll:

Regardless, I do think MS' strategy to develop a "PDA for the masses" via cell phones was a smart move. One handed operation IS vital. I've been saying for a while that this is something Palm had to do (develop a smart phone centric OS). The PDA market is rapidly disappearing and margins are shrinking. This is only going to continue to worsen.

However, I wouldn't assume this new Palm OS won't have a touch screen. As for one handed operation? Well, I think the Treo is a horrible device (no one wants to hold a PDA up to their head), but its one handed operation via the D-pad/OS-integration is almost revolutionary. If they can integrate this into a smaller form factor (think MPx200), they'll have a sure fire winner on their hands.

The only reason I use an MS Smartphone is that the MPx200 is the only smart phone (lowercase "s") on the market that doesn't make one look like a raving dork. If Palm Source can write (or modify) an OS that allows for a similar form factor, I think I and others would be all over it. And while were at it, the pricing needs to be "free" with a contract from carriers.

[arnage2]

heres one ms stratagy that palmsource can learn from. UPGRADABILITY!!!

[Ed Hansberry]

Though we are going forward with two versions of the OS (a low end and a high end, essentially) -- both versions maintain a constant user experience paradigm, and they are for the most part software compatible with each other.
Just wanted to get that quoted so I could refer back to it after this is released. I seem to recall the same statements about OS4/OS5 compatibility, yet there were a lot of apps that had to be redone.

So, will you have phones that are not using touchscreens? Can you explain how an app like Agendus will work sans stylus?
This isn't a matter of splitting the Palm OS into phone and PDA versions like Microsoft did. This is a matter of offering our licensees even more flexibility and ability to differentiate by allowing the creation of both inexpensive lower-end devices, and richer high-end devices.

"This is a matter of offering our licensees even more flexibility and ability to differentiate..." Isn't that what David Nagel called "slightly chaotic (http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/03_49/b3861037.htm?mz)?" ;)

Good point. Hansberry never misses an opportunity to spin every story as "Palm is Dead". :roll:
Uhm... and here I thought I was congratulating PalmSource. Don't recall seeing anything in there about Palm/PalmSources continual declining marketshare since 2000, cash drain of $1B between Palm/PalmSource/Handspring over that time period or anything else. Just a kudos on their strategy moving forward.

[rssrfrssr]

I must say that I do enjoy reading this site, but every now and then you guys post stuff like this. =/

I'm sorry but I don't drink the Microsoft kool-aid. I love my PocketPC (and all my Palms before it), but I'm a proud Mac user (just switched, never going back) and if it wasn't for Palm, MS wouldn't even be in the handheld market. That doesn't mean they haven't made some good choices after copying Palm, but come on, lay off the MS hype. Both companies have gotten some things right, and some things wrong. It is only wise to acknowledge both, IMHO.

Where's the headline "MS Copied Palm Way back in the 90's Because PALM Made a Cool Device and Then MS Proceeded To Take Over Because They Are A Resource Laden Behemoth Who Crushes Any Competition With Monopolistic Practices"? [Insert shot of Bill with Palm device in hand here] After all, with all MS's money and power it is shocking Palm still even exists. As a consumer I would think you would want to be supporting all major PDA developers. Tell me this: Do you want a world where there is one choice? Because that is what MS wants. I sure don't.
:roll:

[RobPPC]

Oh, I read the article. The only mistake I made was refering to Ina as being in 2001 when they were your words.

[Ed Hansberry]

Where's the headline "MS Copied Palm Way back in the 90's Because PALM Made a Cool Device and Then MS Proceeded To Take Over Because They Are A Resource Laden Behemoth Who Crushes Any Competition With Monopolistic Practices"?
Isn't "Microsoft" Latin for what you just said? :wink: :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

That doesn't mean they haven't made some good choices after copying Palm, but come on, lay off the MS hype. Both companies have gotten some things right, and some things wrong. It is only wise to acknowledge both, IMHO.
And who says we haven't? :| We've ranted many times about stuff MS does wrong, and credit them when they do stuff right. Ed's rant about the lack of a real close button (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?action=expand,13460) was perhaps one of the best articles on PPCT in the last few months.

--janak

[Duncan]

Where's the headline "MS Copied Palm Way back in the 90's Because PALM Made a Cool Device and Then MS Proceeded To Take Over Because They Are A Resource Laden Behemoth Who Crushes Any Competition With Monopolistic Practices"? Wasn't that posted sometime after the "Palm copied the cool PDAs from Psion and Apple, ripped off someone else's input sytem and then sulked when Microsoft developed PDAs that offered superior features that Palm took several years to catch up with meaning they needed to continually use dishonest comparisons to make it look like they were the better platform" headline? :roll:

MS stink in a lot of ways BUT they also get ridiculous flak that they don't deserve. MS come up with a PDA and smartphone OS, because they see that as the way the IT market is going, and they get accused of wanting to crush any competition? News flash - MS is an OS company and is pretty much obligated to pursue new avenues in that area! Also - if Palm hadn't been so arrogant, and had used their market dominance as they could have, the Pocket PC OS wouldn't have stood a chance! While Palm stood still MS produced three versions of the WinCE PDA that pretty much failed - in the PDA world Palm is the Microsoft and has the power to crush the opposition (or at least it did have!) - in the same way that Symbian is MS's competition in the smartphone world (Palm are no threat there as they seem to fundamentally misunderstand the smartphone market...).

It's rather like the way that Apple and Linux distributions manage to include internet browsers and media players without comment but if MS do it then it is anti-competitive!

[bdegroodt]

I'm going to have to agree with Janak. I think the good majority of "enhancement requests" here are about PPC and MSFT and their partners.

That said, I'm still hopeful for Palm (though I wouldn't "welcome them to 1999," as they have held their own and lead for many years in this little industry). It seems like Palm eventually becomes the thorn in MSFT's side and keeps them honest and on task. And certainly more so lately than since MSFT's earliest days in handhelds.

Personally, I REALLY like the Treo 600, but I haven't been motivated into buying one. I give them way better marks than I'd give to that miserable XDA I owned previously.

[Janak Parekh]

That said, I'm still hopeful for Palm (though I wouldn't "welcome them to 1999," as they have held their own and lead for many years in this little industry).
Sure. Competition helps everyone.

Personally, I REALLY like the Treo 600, but I haven't been motivated into buying one.
Same here. No BT, no Verizon. :( I'm not ditching my Pocket PC anytime, but I wouldn't mind a Treo 600 for certain applications... although I personally liked the XDA a lot. :)

It's rather like the way that Apple and Linux distributions manage to include internet browsers and media players without comment but if MS do it then it is anti-competitive!
I agree with most of your post, but this is different. If you're legally a monopoly, you're restricted from doing things that others can do without fear of legal prosecution. That's just the way the laws are structured.

--janak

[Partita]

Microsoft Pocket PC and Microsoft Smartphone share some common elements, but the have a completely incompatible user experience paradigm. Its not just a matter of recompiling Pocket PC applications - Smartphone applications actually need to be entirely redesigned.

so far so good, all top PPC apps has been ported to smartphone. Is all POS apps compatible with that crash happy treo600? (eh hmmm, so much for not having incompatible user paradigm, or whatever that shiny new buzzword bingo you just said.)


Our strategy couldn't be more different.

This is news. You guys have strategy?... like what strategy? Is it the 'please please buy our stuff, or the free market will die.' strategy or is that ' we don't need no stinkin' feature. Zen and simplicity are all user need' strategy.

oh wait, wait. another strategy. Split, merge, buy back, stock offering, reverse split, sell more stock.. (or also known as wall street hail mary move)


Though we are going forward with two versions of the OS (a low end and a high end, essentially) -- both versions maintain a constant user experience paradigm, and they are for the most part software compatible with each other.

I tell you what your strategy sounds like to me.
OS 6.0 is too friggin bloated and can't fit on smartphone ROM plus low power CPU. lol.

constant user experiance my foot. If it breaks compatibility and have different UI look, then there is no user paradigm or any other paradigm.


And - BOTH versions of the OS are suitable for and will be used in phones.

so you have two user paradigms. Hey sounds good. everybody ought to have their own paradigm too. Are you going to have another version for Car stereo, watch and embedded device? come on, Microsoft has them too. yay....


This isn't a matter of splitting the Palm OS into phone and PDA versions like Microsoft did. This is a matter of offering our licensees even more flexibility and ability to differentiate by allowing the creation of both inexpensive lower-end devices, and richer high-end devices.

do you actually believe your own drivel? So how do you explain that user cannot instal same software from one handheld to another, or how one handheld has different UI than the other?

Palmgear.com already has more compatibility symbols than pan galactic street signs, and now with this new paradigms Palm plans to add yet another 'flexibility'?

I have word for you: "platform fragmentation"

also check out what your goofy boss said about your type of move when done on WM. (welcome to eat your own word planet.)
http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/03_49/b3861037.htm?mz


I think Handspring, Samsung, GSL, and Kyocera have all demonstrated just how good of a phone you can build using the current OS.

And it's only going to get better.


Handspring is dead. quit pretending it is not. GSL phone is a no sale, and Kyochera latest phone is recalled for tendency of spontenous combustion. Samsung? anybody actually buy that dragonball phone?

well, after hitting such low point, of course just about anything will get better I suppose. What happen to SonyEricsson? Did you get sued yet?

PS. what's with Palm and the word 'Paradigm' did you just done reading Thomas Kuhn book or something? I hope this last longer than 'Palm economy, data centric, mass customization and Palm wireless ecosystem' or any other Buzz word bingo you've been throwing.

[Partita]

[quote=reidme]
The PDA market is rapidly disappearing and margins are shrinking. This is only going to continue to worsen.

really? in general PPC is growing. what dissapearance? Palm's and Sony market maybe.


However, I wouldn't assume this new Palm OS won't have a touch screen.

If Palm Source can write (or modify) an OS that allows for a similar form factor, I think I and others would be all over it. And while were at it, the pricing needs to be "free" with a contract from carriers.

you are giving them way too much credit for this 'new strategy'.
I am willing to bet, after all being said and done, what we have is exactly like 4.2 vs 5.0. They can't afford dropping 4.2 in the low end and pushing 5.0 into that spot, so they maintain 4.2 in the low end.

same with treo & 5.0, they can't osborned themselves by killing treo 5.0 sale and introducing 6.0, so they are calling OS6.0 something else so user doesn't hold their gun and stop buying 5.0 treo.

but we shall see what their actual plan is next week.

[yslee]

Well, I guess you could be less myopic. The GSL phone is selling well here, along with the Treo 600 despite it's overly inflated price tag. I think it's a really nice phone, and it's of a good size actually, does plenty, but GPRS charges are a killer here.

[Partita]

Well, I guess you could be less myopic. The GSL phone is selling well here, along with the Treo 600 despite it's overly inflated price tag. I think it's a really nice phone, and it's of a good size actually, does plenty, but GPRS charges are a killer here.

yeah a couple dozen sold in Singapore. lol
Congratulation.

(so has that phone stopped crashing yet? I've heard it's the most reliable feature)

[Steven Cedrone]

Please remember to treat eachother with respect. We can argue, we can debate, but let's not turn this into a brawl...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Deslock]

Just wanted to get that quoted so I could refer back to it after this is released. I seem to recall the same statements about OS4/OS5 compatibility, yet there were a lot of apps that had to be redone.
Ed might as well have written "I'm quoting you because you're full of crap just like your company was before and I intend to rub your face in it later." It would've been just as tactful. And it would've been just as off-base because for the most part, old PalmOS software *does* run on version5 devices.

and here I thought I was congratulating PalmSource.
Writing an article depicting Microsoft as blazing a strategy and PalmSource as following in their footsteps seems hardly congratulatory to me. Perhaps it was that Ed ended his article with "Welcome to 1999 PalmSource!" that made me think it was less than complimentary towards them.

In any case, Microsoft's decision to write a different and incompatible OS for smartphones wasn't so much a blazing strategy as a necessity because of various reasons (such as PPC's GUI not being customizable enough to use effectivly on a Smartphone). The Treo600 proved that PalmOS is flexible enough for a smartphone.

The Treo, despite all of the accolades from the press and loyalty from existing users, has not been a market success. It hasn't been a failure to be sure, but PalmSource now recognizes that to be successful on a phone, you must design for the phone, not take a PDA and "phoneize it."
How many have they sold? I read somewhere that demand for the Treo600 exceeds production. In any case, PalmSource planned on continuing OS5 development (as a phoneOS) before the Treo600 was released. Ed knows this because he wrote about it (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18664) over 4 months ago! This news.com article doesn't really say anything new except that PalmSource is changing its OS naming convention.

Edit: I saw Steven Cedrone's post asking us to keep things civil after I wrote my initial message, so I toned it down a bit (though, frankly, I think some of Ed's comments are some of the most disrespectful and do not help keep the discussion positive).

[bdegroodt]

I knew I heard the sound of thread lock as soon as I saw this on the front page. Oh well...another debate that will have to wait.

While I can, the issue on demand exceeding production (http://www.handspring.com/support/special_shipping_msg.jhtml) is posted on Handspring's site. The delays are pretty substantial (3 months in some cases), and that might be a cause for uptake not being as good as could be.

[Partita]

Handspring/treo600 doesn't even show up on top 5 smartphone radar.

http://www.idc.com/getdoc.jhtml?containerId=pr2004_02_02_142039

[goofrider]

Microsoft Pocket PC and Microsoft Smartphone share some common elements, but the have a completely incompatible user experience paradigm. Its not just a matter of recompiling Pocket PC applications - Smartphone applications actually need to be entirely redesigned.

so far so good, all top PPC apps has been ported to smartphone. Is all POS apps compatible with that crash happy treo600? (eh hmmm, so much for not having incompatible user paradigm, or whatever that shiny new buzzword bingo you just said.)



Treo 600 isn't having any more compatibility problems with POS apps as, say, Windows mobile 2003 devices with PPC (CE 3.0) apps.

the point here is that, any given PPC apps still has to be ported to Stinger manually, and the porting require some level of UI redesign. All POS apps run as-is on Treo.





Our strategy couldn't be more different.

This is news. You guys have strategy?... like what strategy? Is it the 'please please buy our stuff, or the free market will die.' strategy or is that ' we don't need no stinkin' feature. Zen and simplicity are all user need' strategy.

oh wait, wait. another strategy. Split, merge, buy back, stock offering, reverse split, sell more stock.. (or also known as wall street hail mary move)



Flamebait. 'nuf said.






Though we are going forward with two versions of the OS (a low end and a high end, essentially) -- both versions maintain a constant user experience paradigm, and they are for the most part software compatible with each other.

I tell you what your strategy sounds like to me.
OS 6.0 is too friggin bloated and can't fit on smartphone ROM plus low power CPU. lol.

constant user experiance my foot. If it breaks compatibility and have different UI look, then there is no user paradigm or any other paradigm.

You wanna talk about bloated? PPC is bloated. That's why MS had to trim it down to fit on a smartphone in the form of Stinger.

At least OS 5 can fit on smartphones and run efficiently. None of the previous version of PPC can be comfortably fitted on a smartphone.

Yes, size and CPU horsepower are real limitations in smartphones. Neither Palm nor MS can overlook that.





And - BOTH versions of the OS are suitable for and will be used in phones.

so you have two user paradigms. Hey sounds good. everybody ought to have their own paradigm too. Are you going to have another version for Car stereo, watch and embedded device? come on, Microsoft has them too. yay....


No, having 2 concurrently supported generations of the same OS is NOT an advantage. Supporting Win9x and Win2K/XP at the same time is NOT an advantage. Supporting Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X at the same time is NOT an advantage. It's a neccessity business strategy imposed by the current state of its intented market.

When an OS move from one generation to the next, the transition is always gonna be painful. Palm is remarkable for trying to maintain as much backward-comptaibility as it can. Microsoft has never been kind in that regard with PPC. Each of the transitions from CE -> PPC -> PPC 2000 -> PPC 2002 had each created a large number of incompatible legacy apps.



This isn't a matter of splitting the Palm OS into phone and PDA versions like Microsoft did. This is a matter of offering our licensees even more flexibility and ability to differentiate by allowing the creation of both inexpensive lower-end devices, and richer high-end devices.

do you actually believe your own drivel? So how do you explain that user cannot instal same software from one handheld to another, or how one handheld has different UI than the other?

Palmgear.com already has more compatibility symbols than pan galactic street signs, and now with this new paradigms Palm plans to add yet another 'flexibility'?

I have word for you: "platform fragmentation"

also check out what your goofy boss said about your type of move when done on WM. (welcome to eat your own word planet.)
http://www.businessweek.com/print/magazine/content/03_49/b3861037.htm?mz


As I mentioned, Palm OS 5 isn't having any more compatibility problems with older apps than, say, Windows Mobile 2003 with PPC (CE 3.0) apps. In fact, over 90% of POS 2.x/3.x apps runs on OS 5.

Over the course of PPC history, it has fragmented itself over and over again.

However, most POS apps will still run on both OS 5 and OS 6, PDA edition or smartphone edition. The OS will be slightly different but the apps will be (mostly) the same.





I think Handspring, Samsung, GSL, and Kyocera have all demonstrated just how good of a phone you can build using the current OS.

And it's only going to get better.


Handspring is dead. quit pretending it is not. GSL phone is a no sale, and Kyochera latest phone is recalled for tendency of spontenous combustion. Samsung? anybody actually buy that dragonball phone?

well, after hitting such low point, of course just about anything will get better I suppose. What happen to SonyEricsson? Did you get sued yet?

PS. what's with Palm and the word 'Paradigm' did you just done reading Thomas Kuhn book or something? I hope this last longer than 'Palm economy, data centric, mass customization and Palm wireless ecosystem' or any other Buzz word bingo you've been throwing.

GSL PalmOS phones sell rather well in Asia, so do Samsung PalmOS phones. Most of Asia is traditionally less resistent to new technologies and competing platforms.

The Motorola MPx200 isn't as well-received as you want to believe either. So don't be so damn hypocritical of your competition when your prefered platform hasn't really got the lionshare either, because it has equal numbers of issues.

[goofrider]

Ed, as much as I love reading your site for the latest PPC news, it always made me sick to my stomach when you trash-talk Palm OS, spinning the facts beyond the orbit of Saturn, twisting facts into outright lies, purposely quoting or interpretating other sources inaccurately all in the spirit of perpetuating your prefered platform.


While Microsoft does have some Pocket PC Phone devices, which are a full blown version of Pocket PC with phone hardware, they have all along known that having a separate OS written from the ground up would be needed for cell phones, and they knew it for several reasons.


The biggest reason for Stinger: resources. PPC is too bloated for affordable smartphones. Even a 300MHz ARM CPU and 64MB RAM is considered low-end in PPC world. Such specs will result in $500-700 phones.

And it's obvious that Palm understand that OS 6 will also be too bloated for smartphones (and they admittedly implied so in the PR). Hence they choose to continue to provide OS 5 for smartphone manufacturers.


Pocket PC is a great platform for mobile computing, but PDA software isn't necessarily the best for all forms of mobile computing. The UI should be single finger navigable with one hand. You should never need a stylus to do things on your phone.


Um, hey, genius of MS eh? In case you forgot, the Symbian camp was the first one who realized that, and rewrote EPOC with several UIs: Series 60, Series 80 and UIQ, each targeting a different user paradigm.

The crown for pioneering 10-pad single-finger smartphone UI is neither MS nor Handspring, it's Nokia's Series 60.


The Treo, despite all of the accolades from the press and loyalty from existing users, has not been a market success. It hasn't been a failure to be sure, but PalmSource now recognizes that to be successful on a phone, you must design for the phone, not take a PDA and "phoneize" it.


What exactly define a market success and what is failure? Wide open statements that's largely unsubstatiatied here and left to interpretation.

Neither you and I have any hard numbers to substantiate such arguements, so can you do me a favor and not making empty statements like that? It's irresponsible journalism.



So now PalmSource heads down the path Microsoft blazed back in 1999 when they realized that the MS SmartPhone OS, then called Stinger, couldn't be a Pocket PC stripped down. It had to start fresh, building a UI that was familiar to Windows and Pocket PC users, but 100% dedicated to a voice centric device. PalmSource's phone OS will build off of the core from OS 6 (which will be renamed) much like Microsoft's software starts with Windows CE, but the end result will be quite different. Different enough, I suspect, that a new software market will have to be developed just as Microsoft has had to nurture for the SmartPhone platform, one that has no touch screen, one that will need a comparatively tiny screen, a smaller RAM footprint, a less beefy processor, etc. Welcome to 1999 PalmSource!


This is a prefect example of how Ed can spin the facts and make inaccurate implications out of them. There's so much inaccuracy, misquotes, and misleading facts.

MS didn't ship Stinger in 1999, it shipped it in late 2003, while Nokia shipped their first Series 60 phones almost a year earlier. MS is as much a follower as anyone else.

Much of the UI redesign surrounding Stinger is primarly a limitation of PPC and its assumption of a 320x240 screen. Unlike PPC, Palm OS was originally designed for 160x160 screens, and most apps continue to assume that as the minimum resolution.

The phone-centric UI, however, was an idea began with Series 60.

However, Ed suggested that PalmSource is developing 2 versions of OS 6: one for smartphones and one for PDA. This is INACCURATE and MISLEADING. It never stated nor implied that in the PR nor the News.com article.

What the article said is that PalmSource is supporting OS 5 and OS 6 concurrently. OS 6 will be used for PDAs and high-end smartphones, and OS 5 for low-end smartphones. The decision to continue to support OS 5 is because OS 5 is less resource-hungry and more reliable, and it will result in cheaper handsets than OS 6, a very important factor in the smartphone market.

However, the upcoming OS 5 Phone Edition will NOT differ greatly from OS 5 now. It'll be just like the current version of OS 5 on the Treo 600. OS 5 Phone Edition is a version of OS 5 will its apps optimized for one-hand operations, otherwise it'll be identical to the OS 5 we have now.

PalmSource currently has no plans to maintain a separate smartphone platform. OS 5 Phone Edition will run the same POS apps as we do today, and will have the same look-and-feel as OS 5 today. Likewise, OS 6 PDAs and OS 6 smartphones will run the same OS and same apps. OS 6 will be a unified platform. This has always been PalmSource's official OS 6 strategy.

Internally, the difference b/w OS 5 classic and OS 5 Phone Edition will be simliar to PPC and PPC Phone Edition, it's mostly in the apps and some added phone-centric functionalities. What OS 5 is on the Treo 600 today sets the basis of what OS 5 Phone Edition will be, since PalmOne will submit the phone-centric enhancements it made to PalmSource, and PalmSource will integrate them into OS 5.

One last time:

There will be no separate smartphone platforms for Palm OS.

There will be no separate UI design for Palm OS 5 Phone Edition

Palm OS 5/6 PDAs will share the same UIs and APIs as their smartphones counterpart and will run the same apps as their smartphones counterpart.

Palm OS 6 will be a unified platform for both PDAs and high-end smartphones.

[/list][/list]

[mangochutneyman]

Same here. No BT, no Verizon. :( I'm not ditching my Pocket PC anytime, but I wouldn't mind a Treo 600 for certain applications... although I personally liked the XDA a lot. :)
--janak

Just curious...what particular applications are you referring to? :?:

Anyway, what about the rumored Treo 610 with high rez screen and BT? Would you consider the Treo then? It would be interesting to learn what exactly it would take to make a hardcore PPC aficianado actually jump ship to a PalmOS based device like the Treo! :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

It's irresponsible journalism.
I'm not a journalist.

MS didn't ship Stinger in 1999, it shipped it in late 2003, while Nokia shipped their first Series 60 phones almost a year earlier. MS is as much a follower as anyone else.
True, and I never stated otherwise. I played with a Stinger in 2000 though and it had been under development almost a year at that time, so that makes it 1999 when the decision was made to start from the ground up.
Much of the UI redesign surrounding Stinger is primarly a limitation of PPC and its assumption of a 320x240 screen..
Wrong. It was all about one handed operation, not the resolution. It would have been comparatively easy to do a new PPC driver at the smaller resolution.

[Partita]

Treo 600 isn't having any more compatibility problems with POS apps as, say, Windows mobile 2003 devices with PPC (CE 3.0) apps.

the point here is that, any given PPC apps still has to be ported to Stinger manually, and the porting require some level of UI redesign. All POS apps run as-is on Treo.

is that so? try telling that to the treo600 user mass how they can't run almost all game dsigned for OS5.0/T. (and that's just small case)



At least OS 5 can fit on smartphones and run efficiently. None of the previous version of PPC can be comfortably fitted on a smartphone.

Yes, size and CPU horsepower are real limitations in smartphones. Neither Palm nor MS can overlook that.

and thank gawd nobody is trying. otherwise smartphone would experiance exact same pathetic problem treo600 is having, namely non industry standard screen.

CPU/ROM horse power? the Mio3890 runs on 200mhz Xscale on 32MBROM, more than enough for PPC.





No, having 2 concurrently supported generations of the same OS is NOT an advantage. Supporting Win9x and Win2K/XP at the same time is NOT an advantage. Supporting Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X at the same time is NOT an advantage. It's a neccessity business strategy imposed by the current state of its intented market.

yupe, like I said, OS 6.0 is too bloated to fit OS5.0 hardware requirement. So you guys have to keep using OS5.0. If it is simply an upgrade, just flash the treo600 and install the OS6.0 on it. Like Microsoft did with smartphone 2k2 -> 2k3, of XDAI with PPCPE 2k2 to WM 2k3. What's this all the talk about flexible choice.

If the OS is so flexible it ought to fit old hardware, period. Are you saying OS6.0 can't run on treo600 hardware? lol. now THAT's funny!


When an OS move from one generation to the next, the transition is always gonna be painful. Palm is remarkable for trying to maintain as much backward-comptaibility as it can. Microsoft has never been kind in that regard with PPC. Each of the transitions from CE -> PPC -> PPC 2000 -> PPC 2002 had each created a large number of incompatible legacy apps.

you guys can't even maintain API compatibility across various model (Sony, treo, T|T, Zire) and you want to congratulate yourself on moving from version to version. 'mkay... if you say so.

incompatible legacy apps? what's that? download the freebie compiler and recompile. Big deal eh? little hassle to developer, but nothing painfull.

now you want to talk about 4.2 -> 5.0 -> 6.0, forward and backward compatibility? The big titles can't even run correctly between clie/tungsten/treo600... let alone jumping versions.



As I mentioned, Palm OS 5 isn't having any more compatibility problems with older apps than, say, Windows Mobile 2003 with PPC (CE 3.0) apps. In fact, over 90% of POS 2.x/3.x apps runs on OS 5.

Palm OS 5.0 isn't having any more compatibility problem...lol. 90% you said? to bad everybody is using the last 10% it seems.


Over the course of PPC history, it has fragmented itself over and over again.

right, and I am Elvis presley.


However, most POS apps will still run on both OS 5 and OS 6, PDA edition or smartphone edition. The OS will be slightly different but the apps will be (mostly) the same.

is that like 'sort of pregnant'? either it is the same or it isn't. and OS 6.0 apps won't run on 5.0. And I will guarantee you most of OS5.0 will breaks when put on OS6.0. (but of course you call that 90% compatible)



GSL PalmOS phones sell rather well in Asia, so do Samsung PalmOS phones. Most of Asia is traditionally less resistent to new technologies and competing platforms.

'rather well' , so what's that? like 12 dozens or so?


The Motorola MPx200 isn't as well-received as you want to believe either.
mpx200 isn't well receive? eh hmm, so how many units do yout hink this not so well received mpx200 has sold?

and how many unit the gloriously well recieved treo600 has sold?

shall we say 1:3 ratio?


So don't be so damn hypocritical of your competition when your prefered platform hasn't really got the lionshare either, because it has equal numbers of issues.

I am sorry, but Smartphone does have a bigger share than kyochera, treo600 and i500 combined. Although the lion share would be in Symbian hand, some 90-95%. Palm smartphone doesn't even register under any metric.

if you are talking about PPC vs. POS marketshare, last time I check POS marketshare is still dwindling while PPC is growing. lets talk about this 'lionshare' number again at the end of the year. This year POS will fall below 50% and PPC hits 40% and by early 2005 your lionshare will be in the minority.

What exactly define a market success and what is failure? Wide open statements that's largely unsubstatiatied here and left to interpretation.

let's just say treo600 is NOT the definition of success, and neither does T|T or OS5.0.

see, not hard is it?

[Partita]

There will be no separate smartphone platforms for Palm OS.

There will be no separate UI design for Palm OS 5 Phone Edition

Palm OS 5/6 PDAs will share the same UIs and APIs as their smartphones counterpart and will run the same apps as their smartphones counterpart.

Palm OS 6 will be a unified platform for both PDAs and high-end smartphones.

bwahahahaa........

so I was right.

this renaming of OS6.0 is just a gimmick to prevent people stop buying treo600 (or buying time until phone hardware catch up with the bloated OS6.0. ie. no no no this renamed OS 6.0 is NOT an OS 5.0 upgrade.)

Well it's official, this is just a rehash of 4.2 -> 5.0 situation.

now I am VERY curious about how bloated this OS6.0 is, considering common smartphone hardware has already reached 200mhz Xscale and 32MB rom. Boy if PPC can run on 200mhz xscale, this thing must be massively bloated.

[Janak Parekh]

Same here. No BT, no Verizon. :( I'm not ditching my Pocket PC anytime, but I wouldn't mind a Treo 600 for certain applications... although I personally liked the XDA a lot. :)
--janak
Just curious...what particular applications are you referring to? :?:
Not PalmOS apps per se, but rather "use cases". In particular, SMS and email where an integrated thumbboard would be useful. Apart from that, I don't have any intention of ditching my Pocket PC purchases. ;)

--janak

[yslee]

Not PalmOS apps per se, but rather "use cases". In particular, SMS and email where an integrated thumbboard would be useful. Apart from that, I don't have any intention of ditching my Pocket PC purchases. ;)

--janak

It's not useful; it's a godsend. =P

[ignar]

Palm OS 6 will be a unified platform for both PDAs and high-end smartphones.

I don't know, but I have hunch that OS6 will never make a good smartphone OS.

[Duncan]

MS didn't ship Stinger in 1999, it shipped it in late 2003, while Nokia shipped their first Series 60 phones almost a year earlier. MS is as much a follower as anyone else. That's news to those of us in the UK! We had both much earlier than that!

MS realise that a smartphone is a very different proposition to a PDA and needs a dedicated OS (though one that allows for easy porting of PDA apps). Palm seem to have missed this point. MS did not come to this realisation by themselves - they learnt from the example of Symbian. Seems to me that this is why MS don't take Palm seriously in the smartphone arena - the real competition is Symbian.

Much of the UI redesign surrounding Stinger is primarly a limitation of PPC and its assumption of a 320x240 screen. Unlike PPC, Palm OS was originally designed for 160x160 screens, and most apps continue to assume that as the minimum resolution. Fascinating. Even today Palm advocates still try to push the idea that a 160x160 screen can be a 'good thing'! With all due repect you are doing exactly what you accused Ed of doing: 'inaccuracy, misquotes, and misleading facts'! Stinger is not a limited version of the PPC but does share a sufficiently common code base to allow up-to-date PDA apps to be ported.

MS strategy? Two bang up-to-date OSes both based on the most recent version of WinCE.net. Palm strategy? Release a Palm OS phone that uses an older version of the PDA OS and runs in low resolution with all the limitations that entails. MS strategy? Design the PDA and smartphone OSes separately according to function but keep them related. Palm strategy? Aim to put a stripped down or older version of its PDA (!) OS onto smartphones! Makes me wonder if anyone at Palm has ever held or used an SPV, P900 or 3650...

One last time:


There will be no separate smartphone platforms for Palm OS.

There will be no separate UI design for Palm OS 5 Phone Edition

Palm OS 5/6 PDAs will share the same UIs and APIs as their smartphones counterpart and will run the same apps as their smartphones counterpart.

Palm OS 6 will be a unified platform for both PDAs and high-end smartphones.

...and that is why they will fail. Fundamental misunderstanding of the worldwide market for smartphones

[JvanEkris]

MS realise that a smartphone is a very different proposition to a PDA and needs a dedicated OS (though one that allows for easy porting of PDA apps). Palm seem to have missed this point. MS did not come to this realisation by themselves - they learnt from the example of Symbian. Seems to me that this is why MS don't take Palm seriously in the smartphone arena - the real competition is Symbian.I agree.

Microsoft has learned that a PDA and a phone are two different devices, requiring some split in the development. This split is necessary to accomodate a totally different paradigm of user interaction. I have a SonyEricsson P900 running on Symbian and this is really designed for one-handed use. However, in order to achieve this, one really has to understand the way the user thinks and acts. You can clearly see that working with the 5-way jog-dial is a fundamentally different way of using the P900 then with the stylus. Basically, you get a totally new user-interface. When thinking of this too lightly, one ends up with a User interface nightmare: a lot of actions to work around the fact that you don't use a stylus.

If Palm thinks they can do it based on one OS, i think they will find out that is nearly impossible to do so. PDA's are all about user-interaction and user-experience. Change that in a fundamental way, and basically you are facing a major overhaul in the OS.

Nokia, SonyEricsson and other large telephone manufacturers choose Symbian for their high end models. Other manufacturers have chosen a Microsoft OS. Both OS developers have learned a lot in the past years about the way users use their OS in phones. Both had a decent core OS to start with. I see it as a very large challenge for Palm to enter a market with a newly designed OS, where these two experienced giants are fighting their war for market share with mature products and established relations with hardware manufacturers.

Jaap

[macpel]

Yawn another hansberry cheerleading post for Microsoft and that Palm thinks that MS Has The Right Strategy? pure FUD :roll:. Palm strategy for the phone is great compare to MS strategy and it ain't the same (sorry there) it's nothing more than a name change and specific phone functions added to the OS who said diff apps and diff UI?. Personally I think the Smartphone is horrible, I never use my phone for messaging or wap or anything else because I can't stand using the navigator button or typing messages with a numeric keypad. So your sylus theory is all wrong, yes I'd rather use my stylus and a touch screen on a palm phone than fooling around for half an hour using numeric keys and a navigator pad to find my way around. MS couldn't fit the OS on a small phone because the UI wouldn't work quite well and the OS was too bloated for a phone so they went back to the drawing board but palm does work cause the UI is a lot more suitable for a small screen and just isn't as bloated for now (as of OS 5).

Palm isn't going to change the UI for phones, who ever said that "~100X200" is going to be supported? 160x160 I'm sure will be the norm, so yes agendus will work on it and I'll have to use a stylus and I'd rather do that. Also if phone vendors would add jog dial support it would make the experience even better without needing a stylus. BTW there's already some palm apps that use fingers anyways to nav around without a stylus. Apps are also different from the Smartphone than on the Pocket PC so yet more seperation but palm apps will run on a phone or a handheld and if the author wishes to make 2 UI's (phone or handheld) it's still one app instead of 2 although they might share some of the same source base. Give me a samsung i500 anyday compare to a smartphone although my carrier don't offer it :(. Personally I think the Smartphone will be a failure, let's revisit in a year or two shall we.

[Partita]

samsung i500 is already dead. Too expensive and doesn't offer what the competition offers. Dragonball anybody?

All in all POS 5.0 is not suitable for smartphone, it was an organizer OS adapted to smartphone. It won't fly, it's clunky. ( look at the menu system and other input method. Heck they have to taut unusably small thumboard as if it is a feature instead of a drawback. )

but we'll see. as of now smartphone already sell more than POS phone. It's just a matter of asking if it is a sustainable trend or not.

[Ed Hansberry]

I just don't see any voice centric device being successful if it requires a stylus. That moves it to data centric and most of the billion cell phone users don't want that. If PalmSource is moving ahead with a phone OS that is stylus dependant for some things, I think it is a huge mistake.

[Duncan]

Personally I think the Smartphone is horrible, I never use my phone for messaging or wap or anything else because I can't stand using the navigator button or typing messages with a numeric keypad. So your sylus theory is all wrong, yes I'd rather use my stylus and a touch screen on a palm phone than fooling around for half an hour using numeric keys and a navigator pad to find my way around.

Let me get this straight - YOU think the smartphone is horrible, YOU can't stand using a numeric keypad - therefore Ed is wrong about people not wanting to use styluses on smnartphones???? Gee - on one side we have you, and on the other we have the several hundred million phone users who sent countless billions of text messages using only a number pad just over Christmas alone - well clearly you must be right - using smartphone functions with a number pad and no stylus will never catch on...! :lol:

[JvanEkris]

So your sylus theory is all wrong, yes I'd rather use my stylus and a touch screen on a palm phone than fooling around for half an hour using numeric keys and a navigator pad to find my way around. MS couldn't fit the OS on a small phone because the UI wouldn't work quite well and the OS was too bloated for a phone so they went back to the drawing board but palm does work cause the UI is a lot more suitable for a small screen and just isn't as bloated for now (as of OS 5).
Unfortunatly, the world thinks you'r wrong. And i have the figures to prove it. Although the XDA's and MDA's are more populair in certain groups, they still outnumbered by much simpeler phones than the simpeler models. There is exactly one true phone in the market that is stylus-controlled: the P800/P900 series from SonyEricsson. It's predecessor (the 370 if i'm not mistaken) was a huge disaster. The P800 was not much better. The P900 does a bit better, but it still loses much ground to the Nokia 6600 and the SE T610. Face it: stylus-controlled also implies a fragile screen, which is a huge risk to introduce into a large population of users.
Palm isn't going to change the UI for phones, who ever said that "~100X200" is going to be supported? 160x160 I'm sure will be the norm, so yes agendus will work on it and I'll have to use a stylus and I'd rather do that. Also if phone vendors would add jog dial support it would make the experience even better without needing a stylus.A stylus is a fundamental other way of operating a machine than a jog-dial. Not only from a user-point of view, but certainly from a technical point of view.....

Jaap

[reidme]

Whoa! Another firestorm in the PPC vs. Palm war.

Did either of you read the post? The Treo hasn't set the world on fire. Like Riedme's post: The Treo 600, now that's a Blackberry killer. (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=174005&highlight=#174005) You have to sell a lot of units, more than the competition to kill it. I don't think the Blackberry is even coughing at the site of the Treo 600, much less dying from its presence.


Yes, I did read your post Ed. That's why I disagreed with it. I'm not sure what dragging up a post I made almost four months ago had to do with the topic, but if you had read that thread you would have seen that Jason Dunn, who started that topic, got what I was saying. I guess, unlike you, he's not wearing Redmond colored glasses.

[Ed Hansberry]

...but if you had read that thread you would have seen that Jason Dunn, who started that topic, got what I was saying. I guess, unlike you, he's not wearing Redmond colored glasses.
Jason agreed that the 4300, in lacking GPRS/CDMA, was not as close of a competitor to the Blackberry as the Treo is, but the Treo and all other PalmOS powered phones are no threat to Blackberry nor any other phone. THeir volumes are just too small and phone users don't generally want to fool with a stylus. I like stylus driven apps but I much prefer a PDA/PDA phone data device for that. I like my stylus-free Nokia 3650 very much, and so do tens and tens of thousands of other consumers. The fact is, there is not one stylus driven phone in the top 10, 20 or possibly even top 50 phones around the world. They are niche products.

[bdegroodt]

Pleading ignorance here...does the Treo 600 require stylus use to use it, or is it able to be used purely by keyboard/scroller?

To Ed's point, that's a huge turn off if you have to pull out a stylus to get maximum use out of the device. As a former BB user, I can firmly attest to the brilliant job RIM has done with the input mechanisms on their units. What I lost in the BB, I feel is fairly replaced with the 4355 in a variety of areas.

[reidme]

Ed, Now it sounds like you agree that Palm's announcement doesn't mean they are following Microsoft's strategy, which was all I said to begin with. I didn't claim they were going to set the world on fire.

[RobPPC]

Pleading ignorance here...does the Treo 600 require stylus use to use it, or is it able to be used purely by keyboard/scroller?


It can be run completely with the 5-way and keyboard for all newer apps. Not all legacy apps support this functionality so there are a couple of options:

1) Use it with stylus
2) Use NavKey or NavSet to make standard palm widgets 5-way usable even in old apps.
3) Most updated apps are arriving with 5-way support.

In practice I find myself pulling out the stylus about 2-3 times a day.

I'll close with this: after using PPC / HPC for 4 years I finally got fed up with the lack of actually 'value add' to my daily routine. I dumped it and bought a 600. I have to say, this is the best PDA I've used since my Psion 3a and that is quite a compliment.

[macpel]

YOU think the smartphone is horrible,

Personally yes I do for me &lt;--- , that's "my opinion" . Some people like smartphones and some like palm os phones.

Gee - on one side we have you, and on the other we have the several hundred million phone users who sent countless billions of text messages using only a number pad just over Christmas alone


Aren't we comparing smartphones to palm phones? Besides does it make it the right input method? People use what they are given period so if that's the input method they're given that's what they'll use, $100 phone gets you a numeric keypad today and that's fine. Ask them if they rather use a stylus/on screen keyboard or builtin keypad. The future convergence devices will have better input methods and I don't see the smartphone beeing that and it ain't priced at the $100 level so let's compare apples to apples here.

My current $100 phone is almost as functional as the smartphone so why spend all the extra $ on a phone? might as well get something I'm more productive with, if I spend the cash I want a better input method and a touch screen...

And In context of my stylus remark, most palm pda phones have finger centric applications so the stylus is not needed for phone operations. At least it's a touch screen and the fingers can be used unlike a navigator pad. And besides I'm not saying that Palm as the perfect phone solution either, just that it's a way better than the smartphone in my opinion.

[Steven Cedrone]

Once again, let me remind everyone: Debating is O.K., even arguing is O.K., but DO NOT use personal attacks against your fellow community members!

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[goofrider]

It's irresponsible journalism.
I'm not a journalist.


Well u may choose to conisder yourself as whatever you want and live by whatever journalistic/columnist standrad you wish. But your way of occasionally but purposefully misleading readers hurts your credibility.



MS didn't ship Stinger in 1999, it shipped it in late 2003, while Nokia shipped their first Series 60 phones almost a year earlier. MS is as much a follower as anyone else.
True, and I never stated otherwise. I played with a Stinger in 2000 though and it had been under development almost a year at that time, so that makes it 1999 when the decision was made to start from the ground up.


That's exactly why your original article was very misleading. MS and Palm are both following Nokia. You're giving MS way more credit than it deserves in this matter.



Much of the UI redesign surrounding Stinger is primarly a limitation of PPC and its assumption of a 320x240 screen..
Wrong. It was all about one handed operation, not the resolution. It would have been comparatively easy to do a new PPC driver at the smaller resolution.
[/quote]

Sure u can get a low-res PPC driver to work, but the apps won't since the 320x240 resloution was a long standing assumption.

I'm sure UI redeign was a primary target for Stinger. What I was trying to point out is that MS couldn't have put PPC on a phone as-is, but PalmSource can (or say they can) put OS 5 on phones without major modifications and make it usable and affordable.

May I go on saying that I don't neccessarily hail PalmSource's strategy. What I meant to do was to point out misleading facts. I don't eat PalmSource cereals in the morning. It's all vaporware to me until they show some prototypes.

[Partita]

I'm sure UI redeign was a primary target for Stinger. What I was trying to point out is that MS couldn't have put PPC on a phone as-is, but PalmSource can (or say they can) put OS 5 on phones without major modifications and make it usable and affordable.

LG SC8000?

Plus You seems to confuse deliberate UI redesign around numerical pad and no touch screen as a sign that PPC cannot run on 200mhz Xscale with 32Mb ROM.

and no, the fact that Palmsource CANNOT put OS6.0 on smartphone right now is an indication Palmsource is the one with bloatware in hand, not smartphone or PPCPE.

Fact: PPC has model running on 32MB ROM and 200mHz Xscale
Fact: Mio8390 runs on 262.

Probably real: the bloated OS6.0 doesn't fit on treo600 hardware.

[RobPPC]

Probably real: the bloated OS6.0 doesn't fit on treo600 hardware.

Using Fact: and Fact: and then leading into 'Probably real:' is interesting. Do you have sources or are you simply guessing/hoping and declaring it 'Probably real:'?

Please let us know your sources, I'd be very interested. If not, you might choose a different wording in the future as to avoid confusing your hopes and thoughts as 'Probably real.'

[goofrider]

Treo 600 isn't having any more compatibility problems with POS apps as, say, Windows mobile 2003 devices with PPC (CE 3.0) apps.

the point here is that, any given PPC apps still has to be ported to Stinger manually, and the porting require some level of UI redesign. All POS apps run as-is on Treo.

is that so? try telling that to the treo600 user mass how they can't run almost all game dsigned for OS5.0/T. (and that's just small case)



And I should count on you being updated by the Treo 600 user mass? How? A friend of mine just bought one recent and ran all kind of games on it with no issues whatsoever so far.





At least OS 5 can fit on smartphones and run efficiently. None of the previous version of PPC can be comfortably fitted on a smartphone.

Yes, size and CPU horsepower are real limitations in smartphones. Neither Palm nor MS can overlook that.

and thank gawd nobody is trying. otherwise smartphone would experiance exact same pathetic problem treo600 is having, namely non industry standard screen.

CPU/ROM horse power? the Mio3890 runs on 200mhz Xscale on 32MBROM, more than enough for PPC.



Personally, I'd find 200MHz Xscale + 32MB RAM rather under spec for a PPC and over spec for any smartphone.

PalmSource is likely to be aiming for 100-144MHz ARM + 16-32MB RAM with OS 5 Phone Edition. Most Series 60 phones has simliar targeted specs today.





No, having 2 concurrently supported generations of the same OS is NOT an advantage. Supporting Win9x and Win2K/XP at the same time is NOT an advantage. Supporting Mac OS 9 and Mac OS X at the same time is NOT an advantage. It's a neccessity business strategy imposed by the current state of its intented market.

yupe, like I said, OS 6.0 is too bloated to fit OS5.0 hardware requirement. So you guys have to keep using OS5.0. If it is simply an upgrade, just flash the treo600 and install the OS6.0 on it. Like Microsoft did with smartphone 2k2 -> 2k3, of XDAI with PPCPE 2k2 to WM 2k3. What's this all the talk about flexible choice.

If the OS is so flexible it ought to fit old hardware, period. Are you saying OS6.0 can't run on treo600 hardware? lol. now THAT's funny!

It's not funy nor is it so unacceptable. The CE 2.0 -> PPC migration was equally ugly. OS 6 is an entire rewrite. It's arguably a more dramatic migration than CE 2.0 -> PPC.

Hardware requirements for OS 6 remains a secret. Personally I don't have a very good feeling about it. They wouldn't have been so secretive unless it's more bloated than we'd like it to be.



When an OS move from one generation to the next, the transition is always gonna be painful. Palm is remarkable for trying to maintain as much backward-comptaibility as it can. Microsoft has never been kind in that regard with PPC. Each of the transitions from CE -> PPC -> PPC 2000 -> PPC 2002 had each created a large number of incompatible legacy apps.

you guys can't even maintain API compatibility across various model (Sony, treo, T|T, Zire) and you want to congratulate yourself on moving from version to version. 'mkay... if you say so.

WTF are you talking about? There are no propreitary API in Zire nor T|T. Some Sony's has proprietary APIs (like Virtual Graffiti) and Treo's phone API is kinda proprietary, but those proprietary APIs always get submitted back to PalmSource and usually become standard API in future OS revisions.

I'm not saying there's no non-standard APIs in Palm OS, but there are VERY FEW (much less than what you are implying in your largely unsubstantiated statement). These non-standard APIs exist because PalmSource encourage licensees to innovate.


incompatible legacy apps? what's that? download the freebie compiler and recompile. Big deal eh? little hassle to developer, but nothing painfull.

now you want to talk about 4.2 -> 5.0 -> 6.0, forward and backward compatibility? The big titles can't even run correctly between clie/tungsten/treo600... let alone jumping versions.




Most big titles run fine, most small titles run fine, no recompilation neccessary. Between my friends and I, we have a CLie NX70V, Visor Prism and Treo 600. We've been beaming apps b/w them and we hardly ever encounter app compatiblity issues.

My friend upgraded from an m105 to a Treo 600. All the old apps ran on ther Treo 600 just fine. He also doesn't use any hacks so there was no issues there.

Another friend of mine, migrating from an older iPaq to a Motorola MPx200. He's still trying to replace all his old apps on the iPaq with Smartphone versions. (Undeniably a major incovinience, though he loves the phone.)

The little app incompatiblity within Palm OS (which there are, but you failed to give any real examples), you take it and blow it into intergalatic proportions, in order to cover up PPC and Stinger's obvious app incompatibilty.

Stop the FUDs, it's so '80s.



As I mentioned, Palm OS 5 isn't having any more compatibility problems with older apps than, say, Windows Mobile 2003 with PPC (CE 3.0) apps. In fact, over 90% of POS 2.x/3.x apps runs on OS 5.

Palm OS 5.0 isn't having any more compatibility problem...lol. 90% you said? to bad everybody is using the last 10% it seems.

I'll love to see you find some real numbers to back it up.

While I pull that 90% figure out of my ass pretty much, but it shouldn't be far off. I'll back mine up with real stats if you can back yours up.




Over the course of PPC history, it has fragmented itself over and over again.

right, and I am Elvis presley.

Whatever.


However, most POS apps will still run on both OS 5 and OS 6, PDA edition or smartphone edition. The OS will be slightly different but the apps will be (mostly) the same.

is that like 'sort of pregnant'? either it is the same or it isn't. and OS 6.0 apps won't run on 5.0. And I will guarantee you most of OS5.0 will breaks when put on OS6.0. (but of course you call that 90% compatible)


OS 6 PDA Edition and Smartphone Edition will be the same OS. Much like PPC and PPC Phone Edition are the same OS. I already draw the same analogy in my previous post.

OS 6 will have to be able to run OS 4/5 apps unmodified. Otherwise it'll be a huge failure.

Backward compatibilty is a top priority in OS 6's development. How backward-compatible it'll be remain to be seen.



GSL PalmOS phones sell rather well in Asia, so do Samsung PalmOS phones. Most of Asia is traditionally less resistent to new technologies and competing platforms.

'rather well' , so what's that? like 12 dozens or so?

No I don't have real figures (it's not like u care about posting real figures anyways), though GSL and Samsung has b een selling Palm OS phones in Asia for a while, their phones has gone through at least 1 revision each, I believe that's a good indication that their sales are reasonable enough for them to keep these phones up-to-date.


The Motorola MPx200 isn't as well-received as you want to believe either.
mpx200 isn't well receive? eh hmm, so how many units do yout hink this not so well received mpx200 has sold?

and how many unit the gloriously well recieved treo600 has sold?

shall we say 1:3 ratio?

And how exactly are you coming up with the number? Not to mention that the Motorola MPx200 and Treo 600 are 2 different classes of devices @ completely different price points. Direct comparision of their unit sales will be very misleading. In terms of price and features, Treo 600 is more of a competition to PPC Phone Edition.

I read in some PR that PalmOne sold 100,000 units in Oct-Nov 03. and these are almost entirely CDMA models in the US since GSM models weren't shipping till the end of Nov 2003.

Motorola has not releassed any sales figures yet as far as I know.



So don't be so damn hypocritical of your competition when your prefered platform hasn't really got the lionshare either, because it has equal numbers of issues.

I am sorry, but Smartphone does have a bigger share than kyochera, treo600 and i500 combined. Although the lion share would be in Symbian hand, some 90-95%. Palm smartphone doesn't even register under any metric.

if you are talking about PPC vs. POS marketshare, last time I check POS marketshare is still dwindling while PPC is growing. lets talk about this 'lionshare' number again at the end of the year. This year POS will fall below 50% and PPC hits 40% and by early 2005 your lionshare will be in the minority.

Your projection ignore the fact that OS 6 is shipping this year and will have a major impact on sales of Palm OS devices.

What exactly define a market success and what is failure? Wide open statements that's largely unsubstatiatied here and left to interpretation.

let's just say treo600 is NOT the definition of success, and neither does T|T or OS5.0.

see, not hard is it?

You continue to leave your statement unsubstantiated.

In any case, the Treo 600 got excellent reviews just about everywhere (From PCMag to WSJ), the Motorola MPx200 reviews are mostly lukewarm (though not unfavorable).

The Treo 600 is heavily backordered right now. The MPx200's sales doesn't seem to exceed supply.

Not to say that these are good indicators of success and failure (in fact, they are definitely not), but if Treo 600 isn't a success, then neither is the MPx200.

[goofrider]

MS didn't ship Stinger in 1999, it shipped it in late 2003, while Nokia shipped their first Series 60 phones almost a year earlier. MS is as much a follower as anyone else. That's news to those of us in the UK! We had both much earlier than that!

MS realise that a smartphone is a very different proposition to a PDA and needs a dedicated OS (though one that allows for easy porting of PDA apps). Palm seem to have missed this point. MS did not come to this realisation by themselves - they learnt from the example of Symbian. Seems to me that this is why MS don't take Palm seriously in the smartphone arena - the real competition is Symbian.

Much of the UI redesign surrounding Stinger is primarly a limitation of PPC and its assumption of a 320x240 screen. Unlike PPC, Palm OS was originally designed for 160x160 screens, and most apps continue to assume that as the minimum resolution. Fascinating. Even today Palm advocates still try to push the idea that a 160x160 screen can be a 'good thing'! With all due repect you are doing exactly what you accused Ed of doing: 'inaccuracy, misquotes, and misleading facts'! Stinger is not a limited version of the PPC but does share a sufficiently common code base to allow up-to-date PDA apps to be ported.

MS strategy? Two bang up-to-date OSes both based on the most recent version of WinCE.net. Palm strategy? Release a Palm OS phone that uses an older version of the PDA OS and runs in low resolution with all the limitations that entails. MS strategy? Design the PDA and smartphone OSes separately according to function but keep them related. Palm strategy? Aim to put a stripped down or older version of its PDA (!) OS onto smartphones! Makes me wonder if anyone at Palm has ever held or used an SPV, P900 or 3650...

One last time:


There will be no separate smartphone platforms for Palm OS.

There will be no separate UI design for Palm OS 5 Phone Edition

Palm OS 5/6 PDAs will share the same UIs and APIs as their smartphones counterpart and will run the same apps as their smartphones counterpart.

Palm OS 6 will be a unified platform for both PDAs and high-end smartphones.

...and that is why they will fail. Fundamental misunderstanding of the worldwide market for smartphones

Thank you, my friend, for being objective and thoughtful in your comments.

Yes, UK got the Nokia 7650 and Orange SPV in late 2002, neither of them ever appeared in the US.


Am I spinning low-res mode fact as an advantage? I do believe that, given PalmSource's unified strategy, the low-res mode does actually give them an advantage. Because the same apps can be run on smartphones and PDAs. Whether this strategy is gonna work would be entirely debatable and up to speculations.

In the case of Stinger, I do personally believe that if PPC had a low-res mode suitable for smartphone to begin with, they'd probably try to make their smartphone platform compatible with existing PPC apps. This is entirely my own personal speculation.

I don't neccessairly believe in PalmSource's current smartphone strategy. As much as they'd like to say how OS 5 will be dedicated for low-end smartphones, I don't think they have a clue how to make a OS 5 low-end smartphone that's affordable and easy to use (i.e. it'll probably have to be stylus-free).

I do believe, however, a unified strategy is neccessary for them to:

1. differentiate themselves from Symbian (Series 60/80/UIQ) and MS (PPC/Smartphone), and
2. provide the backward compatibility that the majority of Palm OS users want (though in the greater scheme of things, the intented market for smartphones is 10x bigger than PDAs so PalmSource could've left existing PDA users in the cold)

It's my personal feeling that Palm OS 5 Phone Edition should have a phone-centric UI, but PalmSource has made no announcement about what OS 5 Phone Edition will be like. What I was really try to point out is that Ed was taking the liberty to imply that PalmSource is planning on supporting 2 different (and incompatible) user paradigms concurrently.

On the other hand, it's also PalmSource's fault for being extremely vague about their plans and giving us very little details (possibly so that they can cover their asses later). It gives me the feeling that they have several concurrent, immature developments going on and they have yet to made a commitment in a REAL STRATEGY. In the mean time, they jerk us around and made some vaporware anouncements.

For the record, I don't consider myself a Palm advocate. I'm just a handheld user happpen to be using Palm OS primarly, but my bias is hardly unreasonable compared to some of these people on here. Frankly, if OS 6 turns out to be a dud, I'll be running to the store to get myself an iMate/MDA II.

[goofrider]

samsung i500 is already dead. Too expensive and doesn't offer what the competition offers. Dragonball anybody?

All in all POS 5.0 is not suitable for smartphone, it was an organizer OS adapted to smartphone. It won't fly, it's clunky. ( look at the menu system and other input method. Heck they have to taut unusably small thumboard as if it is a feature instead of a drawback. )

but we'll see. as of now smartphone already sell more than POS phone. It's just a matter of asking if it is a sustainable trend or not.

Depends on which i500 he's/you're talking about. The SGH-i500 (GSM model) is OS 5 running on ARM. The CDMA i500 (the one Verizon carries) is OS 4/Dragonball.

Yes it's confusing.

As far as smartphone UI goes, while I won't hail OS 5 as the right OS for smartphone, likewise I won't consider MS Smartphone or Series 60 as the holy grail either.

Frankly, I don't think OS is the real issue with the future success of smartphones, I think input method is.

Stylus is probably the wrong input method for mainstream smartphones, but so is 10-pad. 10-pad and T9 is OK if you're typing contact names and short SMSes, anything beyond that is real painful in my opinion.

I can't say thumboard is the right solution, I don't even know what the right input solution is. It'll take a while for all these players to experiement with different input methods. Moreover, input method is such a personal preference, it'll be very difficult to come up with a solution that's universally appealing. On that note, FastTap seems to be a real interesting idea.

Whomever comes up with the most innovative input method with the best OS integration will win the race, it won't matter which OS it is. Said input method also need to be adaptable to asian languages.

[goofrider]

I'm sure UI redeign was a primary target for Stinger. What I was trying to point out is that MS couldn't have put PPC on a phone as-is, but PalmSource can (or say they can) put OS 5 on phones without major modifications and make it usable and affordable.

LG SC8000?


Specs for this baby:
- processor: XScale 400 MHz
- memory: 192 MB

How much is this gonna cost? Hardly the same class as Stinger phones.

It is kinda cool though. :D


Plus You seems to confuse deliberate UI redesign around numerical pad and no touch screen as a sign that PPC cannot run on 200mhz Xscale with 32Mb ROM.


Not exactly. I took MS's deliberate UI redesign as a sign that they couldn't make a smartphone runnung PPC on a smaller screen without breaking virtually all older apps.

There is a huge PPC software library, and MS entirely abadoned them for their Smartphone platform. MS would've made them work if they could. You didn't see MS making Tablet PC incompatible with existing Win2K/XP apps all in the spirit of usability, didn't you? Software library is a huge asset, I personally do not believe MS woulld have given up such an important piece of asset so easily.


and no, the fact that Palmsource CANNOT put OS6.0 on smartphone right now is an indication Palmsource is the one with bloatware in hand, not smartphone or PPCPE.


The fact that PalmSource can't put OS 6 on a smartphone now is because.. well... OS 6 barely shipped to licensees this month.

But it'll probably be bloated. However, don't be implying that it's any more bloated than PPC. I think it'll be prudent for both of us to wait and see.


Fact: PPC has model running on 32MB ROM and 200mHz Xscale
Fact: Mio8390 runs on 262.

Probably real: the bloated OS6.0 doesn't fit on treo600 hardware.

Will OS 6 run on Treo 600? Probably not, I probably won't want to even if it could.

Likewise, I probably won't want to use a PPC with 200MHz XScale and 32MB RAM (I believe u meant RAM, right? ROM size is dictated by the footprint of the OS and make no difference to the user experience on its own).

[goofrider]

Probably real: the bloated OS6.0 doesn't fit on treo600 hardware.

Using Fact: and Fact: and then leading into 'Probably real:' is interesting. Do you have sources or are you simply guessing/hoping and declaring it 'Probably real:'?

Please let us know your sources, I'd be very interested. If not, you might choose a different wording in the future as to avoid confusing your hopes and thoughts as 'Probably real.'

Actually, I give him credit for not spinning opinions as facts. Compared to his previous posts, he had quite clearly separated his opinions from the facts in his last reply to me, and kept his opinions relatively objective without being unnessarily sacrastic (like some of the flamebaits he wrote me earlier :D). There were obvious efforts made in treating me and my opinions with respect, and it didn't go unnoticed.

Will OS 6 be bloated? Frankly, Tungsten T3 is really over-spec for an OS 5 device (400MHz + 64MB RAM + 12MB ROM I believe), and there are a lot of speculations that it's because OS 6 demands them.

Personally, I speculate that OS 6 will require 32MB RAM + 200MHz. I hope it'll be less but I'm not counting on it.

If you have a different perspective, feel free to share.

[goofrider]

I'll close with this: after using PPC / HPC for 4 years I finally got fed up with the lack of actually 'value add' to my daily routine. I dumped it and bought a 600. I have to say, this is the best PDA I've used since my Psion 3a and that is quite a compliment.

:clap:

OK I hate to make you all think I'm a Palm OS sucker.... but it's good to hear that, after all these Treo 600 bashingly in this forum, a PPC user stepped up and gave the Treo 600 some props.

[goofrider]

I just don't see any voice centric device being successful if it requires a stylus. That moves it to data centric and most of the billion cell phone users don't want that. If PalmSource is moving ahead with a phone OS that is stylus dependant for some things, I think it is a huge mistake.

Hmmm... I disagree, though not entirely.

I don't see any mainstream voice-centric device being successful either if it requires a stylus. But I believe that low-end smartphones can indeed have a trouchscreen and stylus and be successful as long as their UI does not depend on them.

10-pad is not a real input solution. This is even more important for smartphones than regular phones because smartphones run user apps, and will result in a lot more user text input than a regular phone.

Arguably, stylus input might be preferable in the some markets. Nokia has a GSM phone (3108??) for the Chinese market that use a stylus for text input.

I argee that the mainstream smartphone should not be stylus-dependant. However, I think it's rather bold (and premature) to omit stylus support altogeher before an input method better than T9 comes along.

FastTap, thumbboards, etc. I don't care.Gimme something. T9 sucks.

[goofrider]

I like my stylus-free Nokia 3650 very much

Ed, you don't have an MPx200 (or any other MS Smartphone)? 8O

What's wrong with you?

Or, should I say, what's wrong with MS Smartphone? :twisted:

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, you don't have an MPx200 (or any other MS Smartphone)? 8O

What's wrong with you?

Or, should I say, what's wrong with MS Smartphone? :twisted:
Nothing is wrong the OS. There is no bluetooth enabled cell phone available in my area. :(

[RobPPC]

:clap:

OK I hate to make you all think I'm a Palm OS sucker.... but it's good to hear that, after all these Treo 600 bashingly in this forum, a PPC user stepped up and gave the Treo 600 some props.

It's interesting that all these comments are being made about the 600 and I seem to be the only person on this board that has one and I'm a former PPC user as well.

I've run into none of the compability issues that everyone seems so hell bent on here. It's wonderfully usable without the sylus, fast, amazing battery life. A higher rez screen would be nice, but not at the expense of size or battery life. The camera is so-so, but I'm not a camera phone person anyways, so it's just a bonus.

I'll let everyone else peer through the store window glass and argue as to which is better...I'll be out on the road doing.

[Partita]

Probably real: the bloated OS6.0 doesn't fit on treo600 hardware.

Using Fact: and Fact: and then leading into 'Probably real:' is interesting. Do you have sources or are you simply guessing/hoping and declaring it 'Probably real:'?

Please let us know your sources, I'd be very interested. If not, you might choose a different wording in the future as to avoid confusing your hopes and thoughts as 'Probably real.'

simple, where is the treo600 with this new OS 6.0? (see not hard right?)

[Partita]

And I should count on you being updated by the Treo 600 user mass? How? A friend of mine just bought one recent and ran all kind of games on it with no issues whatsoever so far.

have your friend try running popular title like warfare inc, gts racing, GB emulator etc... Good luck.




Personally, I'd find 200MHz Xscale + 32MB RAM rather under spec for a PPC and over spec for any smartphone.

PalmSource is likely to be aiming for 100-144MHz ARM + 16-32MB RAM with OS 5 Phone Edition. Most Series 60 phones has simliar targeted specs today.

lol. nice spin, but no cigar.
The point was, PPCPE can run on 200Mhz Xscale, regardless of what you personally find.

while OS 6.0 is NOT going to run on that 144 OMAP in treo600.



It's not funy nor is it so unacceptable. The CE 2.0 -> PPC migration was equally ugly. OS 6 is an entire rewrite. It's arguably a more dramatic migration than CE 2.0 -> PPC.

Hardware requirements for OS 6 remains a secret. Personally I don't have a very good feeling about it. They wouldn't have been so secretive unless it's more bloated than we'd like it to be.

2.0 to PPC was ugly. the rest of PPC series is far smoother than whatever you have now. But let's just say the 2.0 reorg is less painful than 4.2 to 5.0 of yours.

hardware requirement remains a secret? lol. (man...now I have to clean up my screen now...jhess. SHould get a work in comedy or something. Keeping secret hardware spec requirement. bwahahah....now THAT's a new paradigm.)



WTF are you talking about? There are no propreitary API in Zire nor T|T.
Camera, BT. (Zire consist of dragonball in low end, and omap in Z71. hardly the same OS. One cannot run Z71 apps on the Z)


Some Sony's has proprietary APIs (like Virtual Graffiti) and Treo's phone API is kinda proprietary, but those proprietary APIs always get submitted back to PalmSource and usually become standard API in future OS revisions.
there you go... come back after you fix them all, then start saying 'what are you talking about'


I'm not saying there's no non-standard APIs in Palm OS, but there are VERY FEW (much less than what you are implying in your largely unsubstantiated statement). These non-standard APIs exist because PalmSource encourage licensees to innovate.

and I am saying you try to spin your dubious achievement as if it is a strength. earth calling Palmsource, come in palmsource.

Most big titles run fine, most small titles run fine, no recompilation neccessary. Between my friends and I, we have a CLie NX70V, Visor Prism and Treo 600. We've been beaming apps b/w them and we hardly ever encounter app compatiblity issues.

and I am elvis presley.




I'll love to see you find some real numbers to back it up.

While I pull that 90% figure out of my ass pretty much, but it shouldn't be far off. I'll back mine up with real stats if you can back yours up.
why don't you show me a real legit user survey to back up that 90%, then I'll show you my number. mkay...

good luck.




OS 6 PDA Edition and Smartphone Edition will be the same OS. Much like PPC and PPC Phone Edition are the same OS. I already draw the same analogy in my previous post.

OS 6 will have to be able to run OS 4/5 apps unmodified. Otherwise it'll be a huge failure.

Backward compatibilty is a top priority in OS 6's development. How backward-compatible it'll be remain to be seen.


OS 6.0 is a failure. because as you already refuse to admit, it cannot run on same hardware class as OS5.0. Nevermind about apps compatibility, we all know how big the BS was from last 4.2 to 5.0 transition.




The Motorola MPx200 isn't as well-received as you want to believe either.
mpx200 isn't well receive? eh hmm, so how many units do yout hink this not so well received mpx200 has sold?

and how many unit the gloriously well recieved treo600 has sold?

shall we say 1:3 ratio?

And how exactly are you coming up with the number? Not to mention that the Motorola MPx200 and Treo 600 are 2 different classes of devices @ completely different price points. Direct comparision of their unit sales will be very misleading. In terms of price and features, Treo 600 is more of a competition to PPC Phone Edition.

I read in some PR that PalmOne sold 100,000 units in Oct-Nov 03. and these are almost entirely CDMA models in the US since GSM models weren't shipping till the end of Nov 2003.

Motorola has not releassed any sales figures yet as far as I know.[/quote]

I have my source. Trust me, it's 1:3. And just quit babbling about two different classes, you won't sing that tune again early next year when people start syaing I don't want treo, gimme MS smartphone.



Your projection ignore the fact that OS 6 is shipping this year and will have a major impact on sales of Palm OS devices.

'projection? lol. is that like fairy tale? I love bed time story too...
(SHOW actual unit shipped then I'll accept your number. Everybody can make fluffy projection, and don't we all know how fluffy the treo projection was compare to actual sale)

You guys can't even put OS6.0 on low end hardware and now you want to 'project' a major impact on sales. yeah okay whatever... Bush 2005 budget has more credible projection than that.

What exactly define a market success and what is failure? Wide open statements that's largely unsubstatiatied here and left to interpretation.

let's just say treo600 is NOT the definition of success, and neither does T|T or OS5.0.

see, not hard is it?

You continue to leave your statement unsubstantiated.

selling 100K is NOT a substantiated success story in a 500Million unit/year market. I am sorry, that's just basic math.


In any case, the Treo 600 got excellent reviews just about everywhere (From PCMag to WSJ), the Motorola MPx200 reviews are mostly lukewarm (though not unfavorable).

Mossberg, gave excellent review on treo180 and treo300, what's your point? lol. Hell he even give bunch of Handspring handheld raving review... where are they now? (selling briskly I hope. NOT)


The Treo 600 is heavily backordered right now. The MPx200's sales doesn't seem to exceed supply.

treo600 is on backordered because Palmone is having manufacturing problem. lol.... That is NOT a sign of success mind you.


Not to say that these are good indicators of success and failure (in fact, they are definitely not), but if Treo 600 isn't a success, then neither is the MPx200.

It's marketshare period. Come back if you have one.

[Partita]

LG SC8000?


Specs for this baby:
- processor: XScale 400 MHz
- memory: 192 MB
How much is this gonna cost? Hardly the same class as Stinger phones.
It is kinda cool though. :D

I don't know, but I bet it'll be cheaper than whatever OS6.0 for smartphone is going to be. I was making a point on physical size of PPC PE. Treo600 size argument won't jibe much longer. And that's on PPC PE side, nevermind smartphone)


Not exactly. I took MS's deliberate UI redesign as a sign that they couldn't make a smartphone runnung PPC on a smaller screen without breaking virtually all older apps.

Yes, now you get it. It's all about screen real estate and actual ergonomic design of the phone. It is NOT about CPU/ROM capacity anymore. You want to brag about how superior 160 by 160 screen is, go ahead, I dare you to keep selling a phone with that screen pass April.

now, you want to argue 320 by 320 screen is superior? go ahead find a screen suplier than can follow your sale fluctuation. In the meantime smartphone will move to standard QVGA screen. Good luck trying to achieve 1-20Million unit/year target using that screen. I'll be around when this reality finally cought up with you.


There is a huge PPC software library, and MS entirely abadoned them for their Smartphone platform.

so far so good, unit sale is bigger than your pathetic treo. Where is your treo600 sale despite the support of some 20K apps? yeah, that's right... NO WHERE.

Meanwhile Smartphone is adding apps faster than the hayday of Palm. can your treo600 do GPS mapping? smartphone can. Can your treo600 have fancy graphic games like interstellar flame? smartphoen can.

...etc. Your argument only jibe in milpitas, not in real world.



The fact that PalmSource can't put OS 6 on a smartphone now is because.. well... OS 6 barely shipped to licensees this month.

But it'll probably be bloated. However, don't be implying that it's any more bloated than PPC. I think it'll be prudent for both of us to wait and see.

I'll be around to cheer your bloatware effort. Goodluck with the sale effort tho' you gonna need it having such a resource heavy product.


Likewise, I probably won't want to use a PPC with 200MHz XScale and 32MB RAM (I believe u meant RAM, right? ROM size is dictated by the footprint of the OS and make no difference to the user experience on its own).

price.

[goofrider]

And I should count on you being updated by the Treo 600 user mass? How? A friend of mine just bought one recent and ran all kind of games on it with no issues whatsoever so far.

have your friend try running popular title like warfare inc, gts racing, GB emulator etc... Good luck.

You're the the one who claimed these incompatibilities, so why do you post some links to discussions about these incompatibilities? Are they representative what the Treo 600's general compatibility with older apps?

FUD FUD FUD FUD

I just gave my friend a GB emulator actually, I'll see what he says. He's running all other POPULAR titles like Agendus,. SimCity, etc. No issues whatsoever so far.





Personally, I'd find 200MHz Xscale + 32MB RAM rather under spec for a PPC and over spec for any smartphone.

PalmSource is likely to be aiming for 100-144MHz ARM + 16-32MB RAM with OS 5 Phone Edition. Most Series 60 phones has simliar targeted specs today.

lol. nice spin, but no cigar.
The point was, PPCPE can run on 200Mhz Xscale, regardless of what you personally find.

while OS 6.0 is NOT going to run on that 144 OMAP in treo600.

No, the point is neither you or I would want to use a PPC with 200MHz + 32MB RAM. And OS 6 will likely be comparably inefffient on the same specs.





It's not funy nor is it so unacceptable. The CE 2.0 -> PPC migration was equally ugly. OS 6 is an entire rewrite. It's arguably a more dramatic migration than CE 2.0 -> PPC.

Hardware requirements for OS 6 remains a secret. Personally I don't have a very good feeling about it. They wouldn't have been so secretive unless it's more bloated than we'd like it to be.

2.0 to PPC was ugly. the rest of PPC series is far smoother than whatever you have now. But let's just say the 2.0 reorg is less painful than 4.2 to 5.0 of yours.

hardware requirement remains a secret? lol. (man...now I have to clean up my screen now...jhess. SHould get a work in comedy or something. Keeping secret hardware spec requirement. bwahahah....now THAT's a new paradigm.)

Huh? OS 4-> OS 5 was pretty much a breeze compared to the 2.0 -> PPC migration. The only thing that OS 5 really broke were hacks. Majority of apps ran without problems.



WTF are you talking about? There are no propreitary API in Zire nor T|T.
Camera, BT. (Zire consist of dragonball in low end, and omap in Z71. hardly the same OS. One cannot run Z71 apps on the Z)


Some Sony's has proprietary APIs (like Virtual Graffiti) and Treo's phone API is kinda proprietary, but those proprietary APIs always get submitted back to PalmSource and usually become standard API in future OS revisions.
there you go... come back after you fix them all, then start saying 'what are you talking about'

Fix what? They work as advertised. Then PalmSource use include them as standardized API in the next OS revision typically. Move on to some **real** issues would you?



I'm not saying there's no non-standard APIs in Palm OS, but there are VERY FEW (much less than what you are implying in your largely unsubstantiated statement). These non-standard APIs exist because PalmSource encourage licensees to innovate.

and I am saying you try to spin your dubious achievement as if it is a strength. earth calling Palmsource, come in palmsource.

It **is** a strength, It's a by-product of PalmSource's decision to let their licensees innovate and differentiate themselves. So it means nothing to you, that's fine. But don't be sinking into insults and sarcasm without actually cotributing anything useful. It's insulting.


Most big titles run fine, most small titles run fine, no recompilation neccessary. Between my friends and I, we have a CLie NX70V, Visor Prism and Treo 600. We've been beaming apps b/w them and we hardly ever encounter app compatiblity issues.

and I am elvis presley.


:roll:





I'll love to see you find some real numbers to back it up.

While I pull that 90% figure out of my ass pretty much, but it shouldn't be far off. I'll back mine up with real stats if you can back yours up.
why don't you show me a real legit user survey to back up that 90%, then I'll show you my number. mkay...

good luck.

No I don't have numbers for this one. I try to look for it. It just doesn't exist. Nobody do statistic about app comptability. Try to find some numbers about WinXP compatiblity with Win9x apps, you won't find any. All you and I can do is estimaite.

How did I come up with the #? My own expriences, my friends, and testing different apps in OS 5 simulators.

How exactly did you come up with yours?





OS 6 PDA Edition and Smartphone Edition will be the same OS. Much like PPC and PPC Phone Edition are the same OS. I already draw the same analogy in my previous post.

OS 6 will have to be able to run OS 4/5 apps unmodified. Otherwise it'll be a huge failure.

Backward compatibilty is a top priority in OS 6's development. How backward-compatible it'll be remain to be seen.


OS 6.0 is a failure. because as you already refuse to admit, it cannot run on same hardware class as OS5.0. Nevermind about apps compatibility, we all know how big the BS was from last 4.2 to 5.0 transition.



Stop spinning the OS 4 -> OS 5 transition as some huge mistake. The transition was smooth. It OS 5 use a wholoe different CPU architeture and all the apps still run.




The Motorola MPx200 isn't as well-received as you want to believe either.
mpx200 isn't well receive? eh hmm, so how many units do yout hink this not so well received mpx200 has sold?

and how many unit the gloriously well recieved treo600 has sold?

shall we say 1:3 ratio?

And how exactly are you coming up with the number? Not to mention that the Motorola MPx200 and Treo 600 are 2 different classes of devices @ completely different price points. Direct comparision of their unit sales will be very misleading. In terms of price and features, Treo 600 is more of a competition to PPC Phone Edition.

I read in some PR that PalmOne sold 100,000 units in Oct-Nov 03. and these are almost entirely CDMA models in the US since GSM models weren't shipping till the end of Nov 2003.

Motorola has not releassed any sales figures yet as far as I know.

I have my source. Trust me, it's 1:3. And just quit babbling about two different classes, you won't sing that tune again early next year when people start syaing I don't want treo, gimme MS smartphone.

Yeah you have your sources. :roll: Trsut you. :roll: Back yourself up with some real facts, otherwise it's all FUD. Show us some respect by providing the basis of your opinions if your expect to be taken seriously.


Your projection ignore the fact that OS 6 is shipping this year and will have a major impact on sales of Palm OS devices.

'projection? lol. is that like fairy tale? I love bed time story too...
(SHOW actual unit shipped then I'll accept your number. Everybody can make fluffy projection, and don't we all know how fluffy the treo projection was compare to actual sale)

You guys can't even put OS6.0 on low end hardware and now you want to 'project' a major impact on sales. yeah okay whatever... Bush 2005 budget has more credible projection than that.

It's amazing how much your dissing OS 6 even though NO-ONE knows any real technical details about it.

What exactly define a market success and what is failure? Wide open statements that's largely unsubstatiatied here and left to interpretation.


let's just say treo600 is NOT the definition of success, and neither does T|T or OS5.0.

see, not hard is it?

You continue to leave your statement unsubstantiated.

selling 100K is NOT a substantiated success story in a 500Million unit/year market. I am sorry, that's just basic math.


In any case, the Treo 600 got excellent reviews just about everywhere (From PCMag to WSJ), the Motorola MPx200 reviews are mostly lukewarm (though not unfavorable).

Mossberg, gave excellent review on treo180 and treo300, what's your point? lol. Hell he even give bunch of Handspring handheld raving review... where are they now? (selling briskly I hope. NOT)

Please read carefully what I said. The 100K units are almost entirely CDMA models sold by Sprint PCS (because it was available nowhere else) in a 2 month period. That's 1 market, 1 carrier, in 2 months.

http://www.pdabuzz.com/desktopdefault.aspx?tabid=30&itemid=170

There's no worldwide sales figures for Treio 600 at the moment. GSM model went on sales in US in late Nov 2003, and also in the UK more recently.

Mind you, I have real numbers. Can you at least make an effort to back up your arguements with some facts?

The old Treos sold pretty well actually. PPC and Palm OS had equal shares of the smartphones market back in 2002 (i.e., back when the old Treo were released). I can quote the source if you need me to.


The Treo 600 is heavily backordered right now. The MPx200's sales doesn't seem to exceed supply.

treo600 is on backordered because Palmone is having manufacturing problem. lol.... That is NOT a sign of success mind you.


Not to say that these are good indicators of success and failure (in fact, they are definitely not), but if Treo 600 isn't a success, then neither is the MPx200.

It's marketshare period. Come back if you have one.
Oh you wanna define sucess as marketshare? Well, let's see, Palm OS still has the majority of PDA market, Nokia has an even bigger majority of the smartphones market....

So why are you hailing MS as being sooo successful in these 2 markets again? Oh right, by your projections.

Sorry for the long posts. I won't be replying anymore unless you begin to back up your arguements with real facts (and admit so when u don't have them).

[Steven Cedrone]

Goofrider,

I think you have some quote problems at the end of your reply...

Steve

[RobPPC]

Goofrider,

Do yourself a favor as I'm going to do and ignore Patrita.

1) He's obviously a troll, look at the posts and his post count. (That's not speculation or a personal attack, read the posts mods..it's a fact)

2) He posts factually incorrect information such as a couple of games and an game emulator don't run...first of all, this is incorrect. Secondly, I think it makes obvious what Patritas focus is for a PDA.

Warfare Inc runs fine
GTS Racing runs fine.
Emulators run fine.

See this:
http://discussion.treocentral.com/tcforum/-t44813/s.html

That is one of MANY threads on Treocental that anyone that was going to talk as if they were 'in the know' on a Treo should be reading.

3) He makes wild speculative predictions that have no basis other than an opinion.

He/She reminds me of those vendors who come in to talk to you and obviously have hit the company schnaps a bit hard. We do what we call: "Flip the bozo bit" on them. All conversation after that goes in one ear and out the other.

[goofrider]

Goofrider,

I think you have some quote problems at the end of your reply...

Steve

Yeah I hit submit early. I finished the rest of it later.

Thanks for reading though.

[Ed Hansberry]

Goofrider,

Do yourself a favor as I'm going to do and ignore Patrita.

1) He's obviously a troll, look at the posts and his post count.
What does post count have to do with being a troll? You and Patrita have about the same amount. :confused totally:

[Partita]

You're the the one who claimed these incompatibilities, so why do you post some links to discussions about these incompatibilities? Are they representative what the Treo 600's general compatibility with older apps?

FUD FUD FUD FUD

I just gave my friend a GB emulator actually, I'll see what he says. He's running all other POPULAR titles like Agendus,. SimCity, etc. No issues whatsoever so far.

lol. oh now he is back tracking and start talking about 'older app' instead of just any games. (an no, GB and simcity doesn't work properly. sorry, try again. GB emu has been broken since OS 5.0)

Do you even now what works and what doesn't work on that treo600 'flexibility'? gawd... here I am taking you seriously.


No, the point is neither you or I would want to use a PPC with 200MHz + 32MB RAM. And OS 6 will likely be comparably inefffient on the same specs.

I am using PPC running on 200mhz no problem, 100mhz even. I have no idea why you even bother making OS6.0 if you don't know what WM2k3 is capable of. Game over pal. Wm2k3 is much more efficient.


Huh? OS 4-> OS 5 was pretty much a breeze compared to the 2.0 -> PPC migration. The only thing that OS 5 really broke were hacks. Majority of apps ran without problems.
[quote]

lol... I almost die laughing. NOTHING worked initially on 5.0, almost everything broke. But hey, if you want to keep denying that, what can I do.

[quote]
Fix what? They work as advertised. Then PalmSource use include them as standardized API in the next OS revision typically. Move on to some **real** issues would you?

The API works, but not the idea there is absolute coherent API in Palm (the one you can't accept. Platform fragmentation, Nagel call it chaos remember??) But again, what can I say if you are in denial.


It **is** a strength, It's a by-product of PalmSource's decision to let their licensees innovate and differentiate themselves. So it means nothing to you,. that's fine. But don't be sinking into insults and sarcasm without actually cotributing anything factual. It's insulting.

If you can't install the same app on Garmin, UX, T|C, NX, treo600, Zire71, Zire then you don't have coherent platform.

for a test, try picking up say, Flash player, decuma, warfare inc., mmplayer, Agendus, etc... and try installing them on each of those handhelds and report back. (then tell me with straight face, you have 'flexibility and strength' instead of fragmentation)

Now take the same apps, Warfare inc, calligrapher/decuma, pMVP, PI and install them on ANY PPC and see if they run. ...

THAT's the reality.


Stop spinning the OS 4 -> OS 5 transition as some huge mistake. The transition was smooth. It OS 5 use a wholoe different CPU architeture and all the apps still run.

first of all I never say it's a 'huge mistake'. I jsut think it's pathetic. But now that you said it yourself, I do agree 4.2 to 5.0 is a HUGE mistake.

a fat layer of PACE instead of going directly to OS6.0 native approach? you have two road bumps on compatibility efforts instead of one. But of course you just bought Be.inc and pretty much clueless without their engineers. OS5.0 is just a patch strategy, instead of a real one. It'll cost you for sure.


You continue to leave your statement unsubstantiated.

is it really?

[RobPPC]

Goofrider,

Do yourself a favor as I'm going to do and ignore Patrita.

1) He's obviously a troll, look at the posts and his post count.
What does post count have to do with being a troll? You and Patrita have about the same amount. :confused totally:

Did you even read my post? Read his posts and consider what all 13 of his have been about...it should become clear.

[goofrider]

Goofrider,

Do yourself a favor as I'm going to do and ignore Patrita.

1) He's obviously a troll, look at the posts and his post count.
What does post count have to do with being a troll? You and Patrita have about the same amount. :confused totally:

ROTFL Yeah and I have the same post count as Patrita!! Am I a troll too?

Anyways, this has gotten way off-topic (and pointless). It was my orginal intention to make some clarification about PalmSource's strategies, and somone suck me into the age-old PPC vs Palm flamewar.

It's soooooooooo 1999,

*yawn*

[Steven Cedrone]

I've got an idea folks: as it appears tempers are "on the rise" here, why don't we refrain from posting here for a few hours? Relax, take a break...

Call it: "The end of round 1". :wink:

Steve

[Partita]

It was my orginal intention to make some clarification about PalmSource's strategies

I'll give you clarification:

1. The renaming scheme is a bogus marketing attempt to avoid cutomers asking "where is OS6.0 upgrade for my treo 600".

2. There is no Palmsource smartphone OS strategy. It's yet another organizer on top of a dumbphone trick.

3. The so called OS 5.0->6.0 strategy is a rehash of 4.2 ->5.0. So now Palm has 3 concurently selling OS. yum...more varieties they say.

4. Palmsource not only does not address platform fragmentation, but even add more with the introduction of 6.0. Is it new paradigm? is it flexibility? Who gives a futz, to customer is all about apps running properly as they expected.

5. OS6.0 as a smartphone OS is pretty much dead. It requires more expensive hardware then the already expensive treo600, new softwares, and probably run very slowly on emulation modes.

6. OS6.0 won't 'impact' sale in positive way, try the reverse.

[shawnc]

I've got an idea folks: as it appears tempers are "on the rise" here, why don't we refrain from posting here for a few hours? Relax, take a break...Steve

It only takes one or two to destroy an otherwise interesting and informative thread :evil: .

We are (I assume) all adults here. Let's start acting like it. No way this thread should have disintegrated to this point. Quit moaning about mod's locking threads and stop using language that forces their hand
:soapbox: .

[Steven Cedrone]

...

Since it is painfully obvious my "suggestion" about "backing off" for a few hours is going to be ignored, I will now force you to take a break...

Thread locked...

Edit: O.K., I am unlocking ths thread again. Keep it civil...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Scott R]

Two things:
1) Partita = Ska = any number of other handles he/she uses here and elsewhere. Not exactly sure why any web site permits him/her to use multiple handles (unless he/she's using one of those services to get a new IP address).

2) All of the present "smartphone" solutions suck. Here's the winning formula:
http://www.hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

Ignore the "Treo" logo. I designed that mockup back when I was a Treo 300 user and was active at Treocentral. I don't much care whether is runs Palm OS, PPC, or something else, and neither will the masses. IMO, here's what's important:
1) Inexpensive. Say $100-200 after carrier rebates.
2) Good phone experience. It looks/feels like a phone when closed. You can dial numbers "the old fashioned way." Using the numeric keyboard, you can type the first letter of the first name and first few lettes of the last name and using T9 interpretation it would narrow down the list of all of your contacts. You would then use the D-Pad (my old mockup just has an up/down button but I've since decided that a full D-Pad with push-to-select would be better) to select the contact. You could also use voice dialing. So all the bases are covered and it even looks like a regular phone.
3) Good web browsing and email experience. The fairly high-res screen would allow for decent viewing of desktop-sized web pages, but I'd still recommend that this be tied into a back-end proxy server (with the option of not using the proxy server when needed) so that load times would be faster and pages could be reformatted to fit the 480-pixel-wide screen nicer a la WebTV, etc. The thumbboard would be extremely comfortable along the lines of the original Blackberry or a Danger hiptop. There would be dedicated hard-buttons for "Back", dedicated keys for the "@" sign, etc. Again, see the Danger hiptop for ideas. The point being that while browsing or emailing you wouldn't need to touch the screen, though the screen would be a touch-screen so as to maximize the potential of the device for apps that would benefit from a touch screen (e.g. - drawing pictures, etc.).
4) MP3 player.
5) Camera. Doesn't need to be high-res (even 640x480 is fine), but it needs to take good 640x480 pictures rather than the poor quality ones we've come to expect from most smartphones and camera-equipped PDAs.

The outside screen would not be a touch-screen. So, you could stick it in your pocket "naked" and not worry about scratching the large touch-screen inside.

All of the technology to do what I suggest is out there. It's been possible for over two years, in fact. The only thing that may be hard is to meet the $100-200 price point. But my Zodiac 1 cost $299 and you can get tiny phones for negative $100 after rebate, so I don't see this as impossible.

Scott

[scmok]

Scott,

Your suggested solution looks like an improved Nokia 9210 Communicator, the grandfather of PDA phones. Interesting enough, their intended upgrade 7700 using series 90 seems not as good as what's shown in your link.

Sure Symbian looks like a more formidable competition in the next round of integrated handheld devices. We have developed software for all PPC, Palm, and Symbian platforms. So I would like to share my experience on competition esp. about compatibility from developer perspective.

Our PPC products are still the most complete. Have to say PPC platform is most developer friendly and the earliest to have a stable developer platform. Symbian has steep learning curve. Palm has steeping VENDOR learning platform.

PPC compatibility is fairly good since 2001. At least we know every PPC has a microphone for sound input which I later learned is not obvious at all for Palm OS hardware vendors. Our software runs even on the HP545 or Casio E-125 (2000 product) using the obsecure SH3 and MIPS processor with a simple compiler switch. Palm should learn to use this approach to conmpatibility instead of wasting CPU powerful for the ARM to emulate the old 68k processor, esp. for smartphones.

[Scott R]

Scott,

Your suggested solution looks like an improved Nokia 9210 Communicator, the grandfather of PDA phones. Interesting enough, their intended upgrade 7700 using series 90 seems not as good as what's shown in your link.Yes, the 92xx was my primary influence. The design is also heavily influenced by the Danger hiptop which, IMO, has a very nice thumbboard size and feel along with some smart key layout decisions (e.g. - the "@" symbol has its own key, rather than requiring you to have to shift to get to it).

I agree that the 7700, while filled with features, doesn't much interest me. The lack of a thumbboard is the deal-killer for me.

Scott

[Ed Hansberry]

In conjunction with PalmSource dropping the Mac client (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24338), PalmInfoCenter is reporting: (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=6547) PalmSource made the decision due to changes in the hotsync architecture and how the new PIM apps work. The new PIM apps have be re-architected to more closely resemble Microsoft Outlook fields and the internal database use a new SQL like schema to store records. Emphasis mine.

Why would that be necessary? I thought it was zen to only have one address field and put the rest in the note section. I wonder if names will be split between prefix, first, middle, last and suffix and commented on in the Which PDA is Simple Again? (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5971) article. Nah.... that wouldn't be zen and PalmSource would be accused of copying Microsoft Outlook.

Oh, wait... they are being accused of that. :?

[drac]

Careful, man.

Spittle on your chin.

(Even though Twinkies are nowhere in evidence ;)

[wigglesworth]

You know, for someone who is coming looking for information on a specific topic it is a waste of time. Instead of being informed I get a version of the Jerry Springer show.
There is nothing wrong with a friendly debate, but anyones opinions wether there true or not is lost when one has to read stuff like this.

First I do not have a smartphone, nor will I be getting one in the near future, 2nd, I am a proud Jornada owner and love it.
But i cannot listen to the opinions of people ( some more than others) no matter how smart they may be, or not be if they exhibit the behaviour of a moron.

Partitas comments and behaviour is disturbing to say the least and reaks of ignorance and disrespect to the competiton, to the moderators who ask for some respect on the site, to user (like me) and to the site itself.

Comments like this just add up and do not paint a pretty picture.
why don't you show me a real legit user survey to back up that 90%, then I'll show you my number. mkay...I have my source. Trust me, it's 1:3. And just quit babbling about two different classes, you won't sing that tune again early next year when people start syaing I don't want treo, gimme MS smartphone.(SHOW actual unit shipped then I'll accept your number. Everybody can make fluffy projection, and don't we all know how fluffy the treo projection was compare to actual sale)Sounds like your talking from first hand experience. You were asked to show your numbers but still have not. It seems the only thing bloated here is you and your comments.
Honestly if this was a phone call or something like that and you couldn’t back up your responses with facts and not just your word my first impression would be this is a scam artist trying to rip me off In an effort to protect your integrity and this sites integrity, please don’t be so rude and ignorant and quite skirting the issue! Challenge the man, show your numbers and put it to rest, how hard is that?
Mossberg, gave excellent review on treo180 and treo300, what's your point? lol. Hell he even give bunch of Handspring handheld raving review... where are they now? (selling briskly I hope. NOT)It's marketshare period. Come back if you have one.I'll be around when this reality finally cought up with you.so far so good, unit sale is bigger than your pathetic treo. Where is your treo600 sale despite the support of some 20K apps? yeah, that's right... NO WHERE.Do you even now what works and what doesn't work on that treo600 'flexibility'? gawd... here I am taking you seriously.This is by far your best post, I can’t take you serious because all I see is an ignorant, disrespectful person who shows no signs of any social skills. Anyones integrity and charachter should be worth more to them than any discussion about phones, or anything else for that matter
I predict that I will be flamed for this, but why should I be any different right :wink:
P.S everyone, please feel free to make comments about my poor spelling habits, everyone tells me! LOL

[drac]

One will find a wide spectrum of respondents on most forums.

[Janak Parekh]

Partitas comments and behaviour is disturbing to say the least and reaks of ignorance and disrespect to the competiton, to the moderators who ask for some respect on the site, to user (like me) and to the site itself.
Believe me, we're watching these threads. Partita is currently on a "vacation" as a result...

--janak

[rock]

Palm is Dead
And No One Cares
If There is a Hell
You'll see Palm There


Soon all devices will have real OS'es like XP on them, not something further watered down. :devilboy:

[Jacob]

aaah.. old NIN songs. The 90s, how I remember thee! :lol:

[JohnJohn]

The UI should be single finger navigable with one hand. You should never need a stylus to do things on your phone. :wink:

Ed, I had to find this thread today.

After picking up my iPhone I started thinking...and remembered reading something about a UI that only was run by a single finger. Nice job Ed.

Everyone should notice those were Ed's comments, not quoted from the article.

I should use my memory for more important things.