IBM Likes Linux - And They Want to Build a Linux PDA

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.tomshardware.com/business/20040127/linux-01.html' target='_blank'>http://www.tomshardware.com/busines...7/linux-01.html</a><br /><br /></div>"IBM tackled LinuxWorld in New York on many fronts. Its software group preached the open-source Linux gospel and spoke of how IBM now offers software and hardware based on Linux platforms that include PDAs, car communications, workstations and its PlayStation III project with Sony, for which IBM's semiconductor group, IBM Microelectronics, will be highly instrumental. <br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/2003/linuxpda.jpg" /> <br /><i>IBM touted a PDA prototype based on a Linux operating system and its PowerPC processor. </i><br /><br />In hardware, IBM now has set stakes in Linux based servers, workstations and PDAs. A common, open-sourced Linux platform, IBM claims, is more conducive for the so-called pervasive computing concept where any and all electronics applications are linked and networked. But in addition to Linux, IBM is also quick to play up its PowerPC processor architecture and the role it will have in the non-PC revolution."<br /><br />Can a Linux PDA take off? We've heard this before, and seen it in the form of the Sharp Zarus, but no market share report I've read has listed the Zarus as making much of a splash in the market. Would an entry from IBM be any different?

[arebelspy]

The problem it will have will be the same as when PPCs first came out and were being compared to palms - no 3rd party software available. In time, this could change if/when these catch on.

-arebelspy

[nobody]

I really don't think it is a big deal. Linux on iPaq has been working for sometime now.

[rugerx]

could drop the price quite a notch IMO.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Well, it's always good when MS has some competition. :? They do need some focus on PPCs just now. It all helps.

[HTK]

Linux can run on a Pocket PC, no surprise on that
Would be nice a cool gui for the system, with all the flaws and wishes from either pocket pcs and palms solved.

And as someone said, competition for microsoft is always good, pocket pc is kind of abandoned.

[Jason Dunn]

...pocket pc is kind of abandoned.

What? 8O Please explain yourself...

[mangochutneyman]

Can a Linux PDA take off? We've heard this before, and seen it in the form of the Sharp Zarus, but no market share report I've read has listed the Zarus as making much of a splash in the market. Would an entry from IBM be any different?

The Zaurus sells big in Japan and has significant market share there.

IMO, a linux pda will only work if overall costs are lower than either PPC or palmOS which I don't see happening. The truth is that overall lisencing costs for handhelds are only small portion for overall cost of pdas, thus I don't see how linux could be such an advantage in this area. Furthermore, there is already a large library of cheap and freeware apps for PalmOS, not as much for PPC....

[Horus]

I want to echo Jason's comment on price. I think the impression is that MS is making a ton of money on the license. I can't give more details, but I can tell you that this is not the case.
Also, Pocket PC is definitely not abandoned at Microsoft. The team is larger than ever. Big changes take time.

[ombu]

IMHO PDA's usage is a mess in the corporate world, just a few companys I know improve their productivity with Palms or PPCs, so maybe IBM is the one with the strenght needed to (really) introduce PDA's in a standard/secure/productive way inside corporations, and that's a huge market, now I wonder if they'll be able to do so and if Linux is the right path to follow.

Regards.

[Gerard]

Furthermore, there is already a large library of cheap and freeware apps for PalmOS, not as much for PPC....


Um, now it's my turn to say WHAT?!? There's bushels of freeware for the PPC. Most of my favourite, most used programs are freeware. With over 10,000 titles on Handango alone, and many, many other sites offering better freeware selections (the French one being about the best), there is certainly no shortage of PPC freeware.

Now, on this device from IBM; I don't know about stereo speakers with only a couple of inches of separation. Seems a bit silly. I'd rather see them put in one really decent speaker of slightly larger size, maybe even put it into the back and have it about 2" diameter. The rest looks okay, though it seems the screen might not be reflective... hard to tell much from such a bland prototype.

I'd happily go to a Linux device if they provided a decent browser, decent email client, a good UI for a total newb like me (never even seen a Linux box, never mind tried it), and VGA and CF and SD slots. Oh, and swappable batteries too. If they threw in a GSM/GPRS modem, I'd be thrilled and wondering where to send my money! With the legendary stability of a decent Linux build, this would certainly beat out any Windows-based device I've tried. Soft and hard resets on this iPAQ 3835 are just way too frequent, as they were on my EG-800. The old E-115 wasn't quite so bad, but still had to be booted every day or two.

Anyone know if a Linux PDA can run apps made for a full-size PC? Is it sort of cross-platform compatible like that, with just resolution being an issue? Or would everything have to be writted specifically for the device? If so, well, PPC really took off in terms of software development in year 2, so it wouldn't be so long one would have to suffer deficiencies with this new unit, provided there was at least 1% or more market share.

[szamot]

Quick market analysis:
If this PDA takes off as well as IBM's Palm III did then this one should never make it to the market. That’s the only way they could make any money on it, simply by saving the money they will waste on R&D and marketing.

[gorkon280]

The problem it will have will be the same as when PPCs first came out and were being compared to palms - no 3rd party software available. In time, this could change if/when these catch on.

-arebelspy

No third party software? I think you mean no third party software liek some of the useless Pocket PC programs. Lessee....

Java runs out of the box on Linux PDA's
You can port any terminal app with no difficulty
There are tons of little apps that are all FREE! GNU TOO!
SSH....for free! Only version I have found on PPC was a 80 dollar version


Or do you mean no expensive third party apps?

I know ONE Zarus that IF Sharp had ever brought over here it would sell like gang biusters and thats the tablet pc like one. Similar to that clie, but with a human readable screen.

[jdhill]

Can a Linux PDA take off?
One word response: No !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharp has had a Linux PDA available for several years. Does anyone care??? It's market share is even less than Apple's share of the PC market. Can you say "irrelevant" ???

Sorry if this sounds like flame bait for the Linux Lunatic Fringe, but a Linux PDA really just doesn't matter.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

As much as I love Linux, I don't see this taking off. I'd be surprised if IBM actually tries to market this as a consumer product... I would see them as marketing this in conjunction with their Linux solutions. Many clients I work with now (I am an IBM business consultant myself) are interested in accessing their data using mobile devices. This just might be the ticket for that kind of corporate demand.

As for the consumer market... I don't see it. If someone had started pushing this forward at the same time the PPC was taking off then I might see it, but at this point, there's VERY little incentive for the average consumer to give up PPC for Linux as the library of applications is already too large to compete against. Of course, PPC faced a similar battle against Palm, but the difference was that PPC was aiming for a different set of features and requirements that Palm felt was irrelevant at the time (color screen, audio/video playback, windows file system, higher resolution, etc.). What features can a Linux PDA possibly offer now that PPC doesn't aside from "open-source" (which average consumers don't care about)?

For the corporate market where Linux is deployed across their enterprise, I can see this as a viable solution. For the consumer market, it would seems a day late and a dollar short.

[cmlpreston]

Anyone know if a Linux PDA can run apps made for a full-size PC? Is it sort of cross-platform compatible like that, with just resolution being an issue? Or would everything have to be writted specifically for the device?

Depending on how simple/well written the UI was, the app would merely need to be recompiled to run on a linux pda.

Imagine a calculator program that, when run an a desktop pc, runs by default in a window slightly smaller than 320x200 pixels. Now, that would run fine on a pda screen without any changes. If, however, you had an application that wanted to put lots of screen controls and graphics onscreen at once, and the developer has targeted the app screens capable of 1024x768 and bigger, then squeezing that on to a pda screen could be a problem.

I came across a good example of a linux program running on a pda with no change from a desktop the other day. GPSDrive (http://www.kraftvoll.at/software/pda.shtml) demonstrates the possibility of seamless application transition between desktop and pda.

cmlp

[the sneak]

How, and what do i have to do to run linux on my ipaq?

[Icebaron]

Sorry if this sounds like flame bait for the Linux Lunatic Fringe, but a Linux PDA really just doesn't matter.

No, calling Linux fans a lunatic fringe isn't flame bait at all. :roll: You know, I heard your same arguments a few years ago about Linux in the server space. Now, look the ridiculous growth linux has seen in that very market. I'm not saying linux on the PDA WILL take off... like everything else there's still a big question of driver support, just like those of us who switched to linux on the desktop years ago had to deal with. In all honesty, the only reason I switched one of my PCs to windows XP is for the pocket PC software. If a company made linux PDAs with the innovation and upgrade cycle of a player like HP, I would be very tempted to switch. No, I do not think linux is right for all users, but for those who demand the most power and flexibility out of their PDAs, nothing can beat it. Yes, it's too complicated for some, but I seem to remember the same argument being made about Pocket PC. I wouldn't be so quick to write Linux on the PDA off just yet, because one company has had limited success in the market. Look how many pocket PC manufacturers had trouble getting anything moving before the ipaqs really became popular.

And just to take your little flame troll bait there... I can't let the "lunatic fringe" comment go. I am curious how supporting software which is free (as in freedom of the user), is not limited by ridiculous protection schemes and shrink-wrap licensing, is supported by a global community with an extremely aggressive upgrade and bugfix cycle, is stable, powerful, and robust, and which doesnt cost ONE RED CENT, makes us a lunatic fringe. Yeah, using powerful software which I obtained at no cost and which I have COMPLETE control over definitely makes me a lunatic.

[Janak Parekh]

Sharp has had a Linux PDA available for several years. Does anyone care??? It's market share is even less than Apple's share of the PC market. Can you say "irrelevant" ???
Not entirely. You're right in saying Sharp's unit has failed in the mass market, but it does have its vertical applications. I suspect we'll continue to see it stay contained in that sector for the foreseeable future, but I wouldn't write off Linux as a PDA platform long-term.

But in any case, debating whether "Linux" would succeed on a PDA is a moot point. "Linux" is just a kernel like WinCE (well, a bit smaller). The question is if the platform built on top of Linux will be compelling...

--janak

[topps]

could drop the price quite a notch IMO.

I doubt if it will do much to the price. The OEM licence cost for Windows CE (or whatever it is called now) is around $10 - not much leeway there.

[David C]

Maybe this can turn in to an Apple PDA, with program that can run both on the PDA as well as on OSX.

[juni]

I would like to see a linux pda running a pda-version of Gnome 2.+ :). I tried Opie on my old 3600 and was very impressed with the ssh and especially with the web browser. Alas, trying to sync anything with a pc (yes, even with a linux-running computer) was a total flop :(.

WM2003 is very usable out-of-the-box and the UI is pleasing, especially if you tweak it :).

[farnold]

I also think that this is for two groups of users:
- corporate customers as an alternative to PocketPCs
- the geeks who always want something to fiddle around with - na, not me :)

IMHO PDA's usage is a mess in the corporate world, just a few companys I know improve their productivity with Palms or PPCs, so maybe IBM is the one with the strenght needed to (really) introduce PDA's in a standard/secure/productive way inside corporations, and that's a huge market, now I wonder if they'll be able to do so and if Linux is the right path to follow.
Hm, you'd be surprised, mate, how many organisations actually do stuff with it. Entire POLICE forces are eqipped with it. Road and Traffic Authorities are using them as well. And why do SIEBEL and SAP have a PocketPC UI? It's that these things are not so much discussed and visible...

[bjornkeizers]

I'd love to have a linux based PDA. That Zaurus with the sliding keyboard - I really wanted one, but I can't buy it in my country, it's three times as expensive as most PPC's, so I passed on it.

If they made one right now.. lets say, an Ipaq 1915 with Linux on it, and sold it at $200 - hell, I'd buy two.

[dh]

I'd love to have a linux based PDA. That Zaurus with the sliding keyboard - I really wanted one, but I can't buy it in my country, it's three times as expensive as most PPC's, so I passed on it.

If they made one right now.. lets say, an Ipaq 1915 with Linux on it, and sold it at $200 - hell, I'd buy two.
I would prefer the clamshell Zaurus over the sliding one. That would be the reason I would buy a Linux PDA, to get hardware innovation that does not happen with PPC.
The IBM prototype therefore would be of no interest to me as a consumer. I'm sure it will be mainly for IBM's business clients.

[AndrewLubinus89]

It looks pretty neat. I really love linux because of the great command line tools and stuff (although I don't know how useful a c compiler would be on a pda). I think competition is always good. Know any cheap place to buy clamshell zaurus c-750? Also on slashdot they just announced a distro for the c-750 that runs on X instead of opie or q-topia so you can run kde (slow) , fluxbox, blackbox, or your other favorite window manager on it.

[powder2000]

It looks pretty neat. I really love linux because of the great command line tools and stuff (although I don't know how useful a c compiler would be on a pda). I think competition is always good. Know any cheap place to buy clamshell zaurus c-750? Also on slashdot they just announced a distro for the c-750 that runs on X instead of opie or q-topia so you can run kde (slow) , fluxbox, blackbox, or your other favorite window manager on it.


www.conics.net ($550 used) or www.dynamism.com, then there's always ebay. Can't say that they are cheap but those are the only places I've managed to find.

[danmanmayer]

I have a friend with a new zaraus that has the fold out keyboard and 640x480 resolution... If it wasn't for the lack of english support this device is actually coming way beyond the pocket pc now. I mean the resolution is better, it is faster, plays video better and looks sharper (due to resolution). It has both SD and CP type 2. If it wasn't for my addiction of having a combo device pocketpc phone i would probably move to it with my next purchase. It has a SNS emulator that runs very well giving it a large game library and its word processor is far better than our un updated pocket word. So it hasn't made a dent because sharp doesn't know how to deal with an american market.

[Fishie]

The Zaurus line is insanely popular in Japan.
When I was over a couple of weeks ago Sharp had a new best seller.

A 16 bit colour unit in PPC formfactor and res, 32mb rom, 64mb ram, 200Mhz XScale 255 cpu for 9990Yen, thats like 89$.

Release that one in the US for 99$ with decent marketing and you could have a REAL winner at your hands.

Sharp doesnt have the retail muscle in the US to make it happen tough.

[Len M.]

The answer is that yes, a PDA running Linux can run many of the desktop Linux applications.

HP's been working on iPAQs running Linux for years. They've developed the Linux/Familiar distribution; it's currently at pre-release 0.7.2 and is very stable on the 3100-, 3600-, 3700-, and 3800-series iPAQs. The 5400-, 5100- and 5500-series releases are almost as far along but still have some "holes". The 2200-series is now booting Familiar but is not yet far enough along to be called stable.

Familiar uses either Opie or GTK2 as a GUI. Both work very well as PDAs and offer the usual range of applications.

See www.handhelds.org for more details about Linux/Familiar.

When a large company (IBM would be a good one) gets behind a specific Linux distribution, it should take hold quickly.

We've developed a digital audio recorder that runs on iPAQ/Familiar as well as iPAQ/Windows. See our Web site for details.


Len Moskowitz
Core Sound
www.core-sound.com