HP Teams Up With Apple to Sell iPod

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/08/technology/08CND-MUSI.html?hp' target='_blank'>http://www.nytimes.com/2004/01/08/t...ND-MUSI.html?hp</a><br /><br /></div>"Hewlett-Packard said today that it would begin selling a version of Apple Computer's iPod digital music player and bundling its iTunes jukebox software, in a strategic alliance that hints at the potential for significant shifts within the computer industry. As part of the agreement, the terms of which were finished only after a late-night bargaining session on Wednesday, Apple will manufacture its popular iPod player in a HP corporate blue hue, and Hewlett, the world's second-largest computer maker, will place an icon on the desktop of its consumer PC's, directing its customers to Apple's software and music store."<br /><br />Apple seems to be taking the music battleground against Microsoft very seriously. It'll be interesting to see, however, how well the "hPod" sells...

[Kati Compton]

Hmm.... "hPod" would be a step BACKWARDS in the alphabet.... :lol:

[ctmagnus]

Perhaps the j(anak)Pod or k(ati)Pod? :wink:

[ricksfiona]

Funny postings gentlemen... On a more serious note, this is a huge plus for Apple... We're not just talking about taking on Microsoft, but Dell as well...

[Bruno]

So what?

No WMA support makes this product as dead as ever. Incredible that HP would bundle a player that doesn´t support the file format that Media player rips to by default.

Get on the program, get WMA support now, Apple.

[rpommier]

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing... All users need is another music format to contend with. I'm already full with .mp3, WMA, and .ogg.

I was all excited about that new iPod, until I saw the information about the cornice HD's price, $250 is still a good bit of money for a music player if you have a PC, Does it had a replaceable battery.

[rlobrecht]

Get on the program, get WMA support now, Apple.

Apple doesn't care about WMA. They have their own AAC format. IF HP ib bundling iTunes, they will probably set it to be the default Music app (OEMs can do that now) so when a user pops a CD in to be ripped, it will come out AAC anyway.

[James Fee]

No WMA support makes this product as dead as ever. Incredible that HP would bundle a player that doesn´t support the file format that Media player rips to by default.
According to the HP press release...
As part of the alliance, HP consumer PCs and notebooks will come preinstalled with Apple's iTunes jukebox software and an easy-reference desktop icon to point consumers directly to the iTunes Music Store, ensuring a simple, seamless music experience. This offering is yet another way that HP is helping consumers enjoy more from their personal digital entertainment content.
Doesn't sound like they really care about WMA. Hopefully they'll "hide" it so people can't use it.

[Mojo Jojo]

So what?

No WMA support makes this product as dead as ever. Incredible that HP would bundle a player that doesn’t support the file format that Media player rips to by default.

Get on the program, get WMA support now, Apple.

WMA is windows media audio. Why should Apple support it? Apple and Microsoft are two competing companies, why add ammo against itself.

Now AAC is Apples stuff, not a truly big fan of it either. However it is less restrictive on digital copyrights and allows a user to assign three other computers to use it (instead of being restricted to only the computer that ripped it).

What consumers should really be arguing is not AAC versus WMA but instead an open format like MP3 (which iTunes and iPod do support, you can change your rip settings from AAC to MP3 if you wish.) The only draw back with Apple and AAC is that all songs played and downloaded from the iTunes music store come in this format.

The reason for the AAC format from the iTunes Music is for legal reasons, without some sort of protection the music companies would not have agreed to the iTunes music store. Don’t blame the delivery… blame the music companies.

[Mojo Jojo]

If your interested in using an iPod but your music is in one format or another, there is hope.

http://www.wma-to-mp3.com/

This app will convert music files you already have into another format. So if you have WMA, Ogg Vorbis, WAVE, and AC-3 files you can convert them to MP3 format and import into iTunes. Hope that helps.

[mgd]

WMA is windows media audio. Why should Apple support it? Apple and Microsoft are two competing companies, why add ammo against itself.

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition? Come think of it, why has Apple produced iPods for Windows? Apple shouldn't care what kind of file formats people put on their iPods. They SHOULD care that they can attract a helluva lot more people to their product if only it supported WMA.

[mememe]

WMA is windows media audio. Why should Apple support it? Apple and Microsoft are two competing companies, why add ammo against itself.

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition? Come think of it, why has Apple produced iPods for Windows? Apple shouldn't care what kind of file formats people put on their iPods. They SHOULD care that they can attract a helluva lot more people to their product if only it supported WMA.

So.. Apple being the number 1 manufacturer with the number 1 music store means they have to use WMA to be number 1? Sure..

Look @ this logically, this venture by HP and Apple says a couple of things:
-Microsoft, you don't rule our world
-We don't want to pay a licensing fee to you (AAC isn't Apple's tech)
-The world is changing, get on with it..

BTW, if MS decided to kill OfficeMac there would be issues for MS and they know this. Anticompetitive behavior and all (RECO I believe).

[Janak Parekh]

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition?
The relationship between Apple and Microsoft is incredibly complex.

They SHOULD care that they can attract a helluva lot more people to their product if only it supported WMA.
Actually, I don't think so. Apart from power users, both WMA and AAC adoption is very small. The vast majority of people use MP3. If Apple supported WMA, they'd be buying into Microsoft's attempt to control an industry they're trying to control.

Quite frankly, I wish everyone would adopt an "open" DRM standard like Media-S (http://www.sidespace.com/products/oggs/) (which will support Ogg in a DRM fashion), but it doesn't look like it'll ever happen.

--janak

[James Fee]

Apart from power users, both WMA and AAC adoption is very small.
I think you hit it on the head with that. The reason we all use WMA or AAC these days is so we can download our music from these online music stores. I dont' think any sane person would rip their music into a format that microsoft controls on purpose. 8O

[jmkeuning]

You folks are the first group I've ever met that prefers wma over mp3. I never use wma. Why not? It's clear that mp3 is more widely accepted (and should be because of the cross-platform blah blah blah) and it's going to stay that may. While I am a dedicated Microsoft user I have stayed away from mp3s. I don't want to grow a 10 gig music collection of wma just to need to change to mp3 and I'm sure all my mp3s will never need to be changed.

As for ripping, there are plenty of free mp3 rippers and the HP I just bought had Roxio installed.

PLUS - Apples iTunes is a much cooler program that Media Player. I already run iTunes instead of Media Player on my PC.

[James Fee]

I don't want to grow a 10 gig music collection of wma just to need to change to mp3 and I'm sure all my mp3s will never need to be changed.
Can you imagine one day try and play a WMA file and all of a sudden WMP asks for you to put your CD in the drive to check to make sure you own it? That is what scares me about WMA, the fact that one company can do what it wants with it. What is stopping them from applying DRM to existing WMA files?

[peterawest]

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition?

Microsoft has been the largest software developer for the MAC for years. It’s a good money maker and it’s also a good way to make the claim that they are not really a monopoly.

They are also an investor in Apple (to the tune of $150 Million), so why shouldn’t they continue to support it so that they can continue to make money.

Microsoft and Apple Affirm Commitment to Build Next Generation Software for Macintosh
http://www.apple.com/pr/library/1997/q4/970806.pr.rel.microsoft.html

In 1985, Steve Jobs and I stood together when Microsoft announced Microsoft Excel, an application that is widely credited with helping to define the potential of the Mac as a great applications platform.

Today's announcements underscore our continued belief in the Mac as a platform for applications and leading-edge Internet technologies. Microsoft has millions of customers who rely on Macintosh technology and they can be assured that Microsoft products for the Mac will continue to be available.

[James Fee]

Microsoft has been the largest software developer for the MAC for years. It’s a good money maker and it’s also a good way to make the claim that they are not really a monopoly.
That and it keeps Apple from supporting OpenOffice or StarOffice and making that suite more user friendly.
They are also an investor in Apple (to the tune of $150 Million), so why shouldn’t they continue to support it so that they can continue to make money.
I thought they sold off most of the stake at a handsome profit a year or two ago?!??

[Zensbikeshop]

WMA is windows media audio. Why should Apple support it? Apple and Microsoft are two competing companies, why add ammo against itself.

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition? Come think of it, why has Apple produced iPods for Windows? Apple shouldn't care what kind of file formats people put on their iPods. They SHOULD care that they can attract a helluva lot more people to their product if only it supported WMA.

Why would people want WMA over MP3 or AAC?

MP3 is the most portable format and if ripped properly sounds the best too.

AAC is better sounding than WMA.

WMA has hideous DRM.

[KH]

What I would like to know is how the Apple format compares to WMA and MP3 for the same bitrate.

I hav ripped all of my music to WMA 192 or sometimes 128 for years. 192 sounds really good. MP3 seems to be a lot bigger for the same quality, I don't voluntarily use it. I have no experience with the other formats.

I don't run into DRM issues when I rip my own CDs or capture digital audio, but can see becoming seriously annoyed with it when buying tunes (just get me STARTED on all the reasons I don't buy Microsoft Reader eBooks!).

[Janak Parekh]

What I would like to know is how the Apple format compares to WMA and MP3 for the same bitrate.
Much better quality than MP3 for lower bitrates, comparable to WMA (although some people believe AAC is better than WMA). For high bitrates, it doesn't ultimately matter much. You won't be able to tell the difference for 256k+.

I hav ripped all of my music to WMA 192 or sometimes 128 for years. 192 sounds really good. MP3 seems to be a lot bigger for the same quality, I don't voluntarily use it. I have no experience with the other formats.
WMA 192 and MP3 192 should both sound pretty good, WMA should be slightly better.

I don't run into DRM issues when I rip my own CDs or capture digital audio, but can see becoming seriously annoyed with it when buying tunes (just get me STARTED on all the reasons I don't buy Microsoft Reader eBooks!).
One thing I do like about Apple's AAC implementation is that while it has DRM, it's extraordinarily simple -- you "log in" on a computer and then can play your protected AAC files. You can be logged in to three machines at most at any given time. That's it. I know some WMA setups have "primary" vs. "backup" computers, and you have to "authorize" the music. Of course, no DRM is better. ;)

--janak

[Jonathan1]

So what?

No WMA support makes this product as dead as ever. Incredible that HP would bundle a player that doesn´t support the file format that Media player rips to by default.

Get on the program, get WMA support now, Apple.


Note guys that all HP computers are going to ship with iTunes so ripping into AAC will be supported out of the box. And frankly I'm glade Apple didn't go with WMA. Sure MS is giving the codec away for free right now but they also gave IE away for free once upon a time. I'm going to be blunt here. You can't trust Microsoft. And you can't trust WMA. It’s a proprietary codec. AAC while having a proprietary DRM system is using the MPEG4 open standard. Screw ANYTHING that isn't an open standard. Since MS controls WMA they control what platform it supports. They control the standard. And they as a FACT have been known to dink with standards. Once again it’s the having too many hands in the cookie jar routine. If MS’s Windows Media BU was spun off and wasn’t tied to the rest of Microsoft *coughs*windows*coughs* I wouldn’t have a problem since they wouldn’t have conflicting priorities. In this case they do. At least Apple knows that they need to support windows to survive which just about assures they won’t be playing any tricks with codecs.

Also of note is that Real Media will be starting to support AAC/Helix encoded music so Apple isn't the only one on the market to support AAC.

Final note. WMA is a persudo open standard. Just because many devices use WMA doesn't mean its a good codec and I would hope I wouldn't have to treat people on this board like Mac users in that there are more then a few that make comments on a product or a piece of software without trying it first. Doing a direct comparison, from the LoTR: RotK soundtrack, of a 256kb/s encoded AAC file and a 256kb/s encoded WMA file I would pick the AAC over WMA. The sound sounds a lot richer and deeper. Granted that is just me other's experiences may very.

PS- The iPod is still too expensive and the new iPod minies that Apple released yesterday (4Gb, $249) is still too expensive. The price should be $199.

[Jonathan1]

WMA is windows media audio. Why should Apple support it? Apple and Microsoft are two competing companies, why add ammo against itself.

So, why doesn't MS just kill Office for the Mac? Why support the competition? Come think of it, why has Apple produced iPods for Windows? Apple shouldn't care what kind of file formats people put on their iPods. They SHOULD care that they can attract a helluva lot more people to their product if only it supported WMA.
So Microsoft can always claim they have competition. That whole monopoly thing. It’s a way out for them. Everyone knows that if MS killed off Office it would kill off any chance of Apple edging into the enterprise/government market. Office is the standard when it comes to productivity suites. Open office is OK but you still have incompatibilities and thus any company that really wants compatibility goes with MS Office.

MS isn't being kind to Apple. They are the competitors. I'd bet a years salary that if Apple started eating away at the Windows market share MS would drop Office and VPC in a heartbeat. The revenues generated from MS’s Mac BU is paltry in comparison to MS Office for Windows.

PS- This is probably also the reason Apple hasn't updated Appleworks in years. Its shear speculation on my part but I bet there is an agreement that if Apple stays out of the productivity suite game MS will continue to make Office for the Mac. But I'm also willing to bet Apple is working on converting Open Office to Mac. There sort of a cold war going on. Apple fired a shot across Microsoft's bow with Safari but MS returned fire by killing IE for the Mac.

[cmorris]

From http://www.winnetmag.com/windowspaulthurrott/Article/ArticleID/41423/windowspaulthurrott_41423.html

[CES 2003] Exclusive: HP Working to Get WMA on iPod
HP's blockbuster deal with Apple will (see details below) will have one exciting side effect, I discovered today: The company will be working with Apple to add support for Microsoft's superior Windows Media Audio (WMA) format to the iPod by mid-year. You heard it here first.

FWIW, WMA is important to me so this would make me consider an hPod or whatever they call it.

[KH]

Is there any software available that supports Apple's formats on Pocket PCs? Can CDs be ripped to use Apple's format without DRM?

I really do hope the CES 'announcement' is true. Support for WMA would be a help - especially if multiple devices were supported, including Pocket PCs.

[Jonathan1]

Is there any software available that supports Apple's formats on Pocket PCs? Can CDs be ripped to use Apple's format without DRM?

I really do hope the CES 'announcement' is true. Support for WMA would be a help - especially if multiple devices were supported, including Pocket PCs.

Yes and no. There is support for AAC (a.k.a MPEG4.) but not for DRMed AAC files. This is what sucks about DRM and the fact that Apple is being a stubborn *** when it comes to allowing other devices to play with their DRM but on one hand I can see why. The more holes you open the more likely a vulnerability will be found.

As for CD's being ripped into AAC. By default any CD's ripped are not DRMed.

FYI- Someone has already found a workaround for Apple's DRM. Its more a sidestep but it does allow clean conversions of AAC files into MP3 files. It intercepts the audio stream that iTunes puts out.

[alex_kac]

[quote=Bruno]Now AAC is Apples stuff, not a truly big fan of it either. However it is less restrictive on digital copyrights and allows a user to assign three other computers to use it (instead of being restricted to only the computer that ripped it).


AAC isn't Apple's stuff. Its industry standard music format used on DVD players too. The Fairplay DRM is Apple's, however.

But I will say this - if Apple supports WMA, MS wins. Apple and everyone else loses to another MS dominated format.

[surur]

Microsoft has been selling music over here in the UK for the last year about, and I have now built up a small investment in WMA files. So far Apple has not entered the overseas market. It seems WMA is also the standard codec for all the other online music stores. To me its good news that hpod is supporting wma, and I will now consider buying one.

Apple apologists when talking about DRM always say the simple way to defeat its DRM is to just burn and rip, but of course one can do the same with WMA's. When buying AAC or an Ipod one is tied to both (for legal music). With WMA there is a wide selection of players (even DVD players) and a number of stores (e.g. napster, walmart, msn etc) that will sell you a tune. Its a much more open market.

Competition is always good.

Surur

[mgd]

Wow, I've never been so "quoted". Wonderful.

Okay. I'm no professional musician and I probably couldn't tell the difference between music recorded in the different formats at the same bitrate if my life depended on it. I don't download music files (bought or otherwise) and only rip my own CDs to put them on my digital player. Why WMA? Because my player has limited memory (128MB) and I can put about twice as much music on it (compared to mp3) and because I use XP and WMA creation is just there and simple to use. If I need exceptionally true sound quality, I can always re-rip to a better format or higher bitrate, or listen to the CD.

Sound quality can also be matter of personal taste. Sort of like peoples' equalizers. CDs are musicians' final products and reflect the way they want their music to be heard after months is a recording studio. So what do we do? Equalize it to death.

[dean_shan]

I am a MP3 fan. I rip all my music with that. I want my music to be able to play on all computers and devices. When I do buy music from Apple I burn it to CD and then rip them to MP3.

[Jason Dunn]

Apart from power users, both WMA and AAC adoption is very small. The vast majority of people use MP3.

Um...are you sure? Given that a Windows XP machine, by default, can't rip MP3s and rips WMA instead, I don't think that holds true. Sure, most of the stuff being traded on Kazaa is MP3, but over time I'm convinced that will change to WMA...it's hard to fight the "default" format in the Windows world. ;-)

[Jason Dunn]

I dont' think any sane person would rip their music into a format that microsoft controls on purpose. 8O

&lt;waves hand> I did. :lol: I use WMA as my default format when ripping, but I turn DRM off, so it's as friendly as MP3 on any of my devices.

[Jason Dunn]

What is stopping them from applying DRM to
existing WMA files?

I don't think that's technically possible.

[Janak Parekh]

Um...are you sure?
Among the non-Power Users, yes. The vast majority of customers I see don't bother with ripping their own music; in fact, most of them have no clue with ripping is. Rather, they get the music they already own (and don't own) through Kazaa. 8O

Among the Power Users... hmm. I think it's poll time. ;)

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Among the non-Power Users, yes. The vast majority of customers I see don't bother with ripping their own music, and rather get the music they already own (and don't own) through Kazaa. 8O

Hrm...interesting. I'd venture to say that installing and using Kazaa is more complicated that putting in a CD and saying "Copy to hard drive". I think you and I are going to have to disagree on this one Janak. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

Hrm...interesting. I'd venture to say that installing and using Kazaa is more complicated that putting in a CD and saying "Copy to hard drive". I think you and I are going to have to disagree on this one Janak. :wink:
That's fine with me. ;) Almost every end-user machine I consult on has Kazaa (and, of course, spyware). I finally weaned my sister off of it. It's viral: everyone tells their friends to "get kazaa; go to www.kazaa.com". I think they use an ActiveX control to make it trivial.

--janak

[ctmagnus]

I, for one, hope that this means that iPods will eventually support WMA and preferably high-bitrate WMA. fwiw, Creative recently released a firmware update for the Nomad Jukebox 3 that allows playback of high-bitrate WMA files on it.

[Jonathon Watkins]

Hmmm, a friend recently asked me what format he should rip in, MP3, MP3 Pro, WMA or Ogg. I (and he) did not even consider AAC.

I said that as long as he was happy with the file size, that he would be happy with the sound quality of a 192 MP3.

I have been through all the arguments for each format, but at the moment, that's what I continue to rip at. Musicmatch converts the 192 MP3s into 96 WMAs for my Axim and I'm happy with the quality of that.

[James Fee]

What is stopping them from applying DRM to
existing WMA files?

I don't think that's technically possible.
What if they updated WMP that every time you tried to play your music you had to prove you owned it? What if it said, "To play this file, you need to show you own the CD." Then it took the old WMA files and updated it to have DRM. Its possible, but I sure doubt they would do it. Still you figure its possible when one company totally controls the format.

[ctmagnus]

I just noticed that Winamp 5.01 has the ability to encode to AAC v1.00.