iPod vs. Dell

[Steven Cedrone]

O.K., need some help...

Wife wants a digital player, I have decided either a 20GB iPod (http://www.apple.com/ipod/specs.html) or 20GB Dell DJ 20 (http://www1.us.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/dj_20?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs&~tab=specstab) would fit the bill nicely...

I need opinions...

I realize the Dell is over $100.00US cheaper, but what about battery life, ease of use (w/Windows), etc...

And yes, I read the spec sheets, but I want real world opinions...

Thanks,

Steve

[David Prahl]

Not that this helps, but Gateway has an iPod-clone now, too. I haven't anything about the Dell or Gateway devices - not even a review!

[Steven Cedrone]

Hmm...

O.K., to be cmpletely fair about it, anyone know about the Gateway DMP-X20 Jukebox (http://accessories.gateway.com/AccessoryStore/Consumer+Electronics_381930/Audio_381931/MP3+Players_316716/MP3+Players_316717/7004768_ProdDetail) as well...

Steve

[Jason Dunn]

I was going to tell you to check out www.delldj.com, but they had to change their name because of copyright reasons. Anyway, here's a good review of the Dell DJ:

http://www.digitalmusicsite.com/forums/index.php?s=&act=Tutorials&CODE=03&ID=10

[ignar]

I have some friends who returned their iPod's because of disappointing battery life. The old iPod had much longer battery life.

[Janak Parekh]

I have some friends who returned their iPod's because of disappointing battery life. The old iPod had much longer battery life.
Really? :confused totally: The new iPod has the same battery life as the old iPod. However, it does have much less battery life than the new Dell unit (about half, at 8 hours). I find it sufficient (since I charge it everyday in front of a computer), but some might not.

In response to your other questions, Steve:

- Ease of use with Windows: toss-up at this point. The iPod doesn't come with a USB 2.0 cable, you have to buy that as an accessory (firewire comes by default). On the other hand, iTunes is an absolute joy, and I prefer it infinitely to MusicMatch.

- Size: The iPod is smaller. Important for me as I pocket it, but maybe less important if it goes in a purse or handbag.

- Music formats: Both support MP3. The Dell unit supports WMA, the iPod supports AAC. Not sure if you're going to be buying Internet music, but I personally prefer Apple's DRM to most WMA stores.

- Aesthetics: iPod wins for having a nice non-moving pressure-sensitive thumbwheel, which is a fantastic interface for scrolling. It loses because the surface is a bit prone to scratching, and the unit is a little slippery.

Steve - does that help?

--janak

[ignar]

Yes, I'm sure the new model has a less battery life. I also found this site interesting.

http://ipodsdirtysecret.com/

[Janak Parekh]

Yes, I'm sure the new model has a less battery life.
Can you cite some statistics for this? Both my sister and I own a 3G iPod (she a 15GB, me a 30GB), and we find its battery life is indeed very comparable to older iPods (less than the Dell player, but I already said that).

I also found this site interesting.
This site is simply noting the fact that Li-Ion batteries wear out after about 18-24 months. This is nothing new. Apple's replacement fees aren't cheap, but one can discover sites like www.ipodbattery.com which sells it for about ~ $50. This is not unique to iPods; old iPAQs, like the 3650 and 3870, suffer from this problem as well.

If you want to point out that the iPod's battery is not trivially removable, making buying aftermarket batteries a pain, that's a legitimate point. I think the Dell DJ has (and will have) the same problem, however.

BTW, Steve: you might want to check out the Rio Karma (http://www.digitalnetworksna.com/shop/_templates/item_main_Rio.asp?model=220&cat=53) as well. If I had to get an audio player now, that's the one I'd be most tempted by. Not only does it have Ogg and WMA support, it has an Ethernet port in the cradle! 8O

--janak

[ignar]

Quick Google search found this article. I don't have detailed specs, but my friends told they could use the old iPod up to 15 hours straight while the max for the newer model is less than 8 hours.

http://ptech.wsj.com/archive/ptech-20030501.html

The new iPod does have one big drawback, however. To reduce the size of the unit, Apple had to cut the size of the battery. So, the battery life of the new iPods, while still respectable, is significantly lower than it was on the original version. The old models claimed 10 hours of battery life, but mine got 12 hours. The new models claim eight hours of battery life, but my test iPod lasted only 7.5 hours -- nearly 40% less than my old one.

I linked ipodsdirtysecret.com just as FYI material. I have nothing against iPod, but believe $255 plus mailing fee for battery replacement is big enough money which should be considered by potential buyers.

[Janak Parekh]

Quick Google search found this article. I don't have detailed specs, but my friends told they could use the old iPod up to 15 hours straight while the max for the newer model is less than 8 hours.
Thanks. I didn't realize that people actually got that long lifetimes from the old iPods -- I guess my friends weren't as lucky, or something. ;) I know that the new iPods have physically small batteries to handle the formfactor, and perhaps that was the source of the tradeoff.

I have nothing against iPod, but believe $255 plus mailing fee for battery replacement is big enough money which should be considered by potential buyers.
I'd never suggest anyone ever do that. Aftermarket all the way, be it for Pocket PCs or music players. :) BTW, News.com has an article (http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5112066.html?part=dtx&tag=ntop) on the site you mentioned. Personally, I don't get their beef -- and I've never seen their "modifications" on NYC ads... although I've been living in front of my computer as of late, bogged down with work.

--janak

[GoldKey]

I purchased the Archos Gmini 20 GB model from Circuit City last week. It is only $199 after rebate and you don't need to use any special software to move your files over. Another bonus, although I think their adv is deceptive is that it has a built in CF slot that can be used to copy things on and off of the 20 GB. So, I can vacation with my PPC, Digital camera, and this and have everything I need. Huge movie collection on the 20 GB and copy the movie I want to watch on the plane onto a CF card. Take alot of pictures and copy them to the drive. Pretty sweet. The only thing I don't like is that while the hardware is built in, as some strange marketing ploy, it is disabled and you need to buy the software to enable it. Same goes for the voice recorder function. But, even after this, it is still considerably cheaper than the Dell and has more features.

[Steven Cedrone]

Wow, great info!!!

Janak, that Rio Karma looks cool!!! Do any units out there have user replacable batteries???

Also, this isn't the first time I heard about the iPod being easily scratched. That means, not only do I need to add a USB converter to the order, but a case as well...

Great idea about using the Jukebox(whichever I decide on) to transfer movies and files to and from other devices for travel...

Thanks again!!!

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

Janak, that Rio Karma looks cool!!! Do any units out there have user replacable batteries???
I don't think so, but I may be wrong. :( Maybe the Archos units? I haven't investigated them much lately.

Also, this isn't the first time I heard about the iPod being easily scratched. That means, not only do I need to add a USB converter to the order, but a case as well...
Well, the iPod comes with a belt-clip slipcase, but it isn't terribly impressive. My sister loves her iSkin (www.iskin.com). Me... well... I've grown to love my scratches. :lol: They don't bother me anymore. I might get a case (the Vaja ones are pretty but expensive), but I really like the small "naked" size, and it's not like it has a touchscreen that's gonna crack. On the other hand, some of the other units look more scratchproof. Choices, choices... ;)

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

Choices, choices... ;)

Tell me about it... :lol:

Well, I have some time and I don't want to turn around and regret my choice a week after I make my pruchase...

Steve

[Jereboam]

I recently splurged on a 40 Gig iPod (doh!) and have to say I am loving it, and use it far more often that my Creative Zen. It's just that tiny bit smaller, which makes it infinitely more pocketable in my opinion.

And, as has been said, iTunes for Windows is just pure joy. Clean, simple, easy to use, but powerful. Just as software should be. And Smart Playlists are worth a mention...

Some of the shortcomings of the iPod are apparent - like the battery life (although not an issue with me, 8 hours or so is fine) and the scratchability of it (not suffered yet) and the fact that it is hideously expensive (yeah right, that's going to stop us, we wants it my precioussss) but all-in-all as a way to enjoy music on the move and on your computer the iPod/iTunes (and at some unspecified point for us non-US types, iTunes Music Store) combination is hard to beat. And I think that's the way we should look at it...it really is a system.

Personally, I'm sticking with the iPod.

A short note on batteries.

ALL lithium-ion batteries have limited capacity and will start to degrade as soon as they are manufactured. Any lithium-ion battery, regardless of device, is good for only between 300 and 500 charge cycles. By charge cycle I mean full discharge followed by full charge, or vice versa. Lithium-ion batteries don't like being fully drained...the best you can do for your battery is to top it up as often as possible...partial charging will not affect the battery whatsoever, there is no battery "memory" with lithium-ion. And cold/heat will also affect the efficiency of the battery. The battery in the iPod is actually a Sony unit, I think, and is actually moulded around the hard drive (which is a Toshiba unit, I think) so I would expect the cost of such a custom solution to be reasonably high...but as has been mentioned battery replacements can be had for as low as $50 out there, so what's the big deal? I expect my battery to last at least 2-3 years, if it doesn't I will of course be disappointed but there is absolutely nothing to indicate that it won't last this long, despite the efforts of some idiots with vandalism on the brain and clearly nothing better to do. Although some people have had issues with their batteries, compared to the (according to Apple) million + happy iPod owners out there, the people who have had problems are probably statistically insignificant (although not unimportant, the distinction should be clear).

J'bm

[Steven Cedrone]

J'bm...

Thanks!!!

Steve

[Jereboam]

No worries, and the deciding factor, if it's for your good lady wife...the iPod is a very beautiful thing. It's audio jewellry!!!

J'bm

[mrkablooey]

On all of my Apple products I've purchased the Apple Care extended warranty. It's a piece of mind decision that can be well worth it if you need it. It's like insurance, in a way... it's one of those things you hope you never need, but if you do, you'll be glad you have it. You can get it directly from Apple or through a re-seller like CompUSA. I tend to buy stuff from smalldog.com for any Apple products. The 2 year extension on an iPod is only $55 at smalldog.com It covers the battery if it's at 50% capacity though I doubt you'd have much trouble getting them to take care of it. Apple Care is brand new on iPods, they haven't offered it in the past. I've had my iPods for less than a year, so will gladly give smalldog the $110 to cover both of them for an extra two. It's better than giving the money to CompUSA. :wink:

And no, I'm not affiliated with smalldog, just a happy customer. :D

[PetiteFlower]

Tom's hardware just reviewed the new Creative Zen model, it looks pretty nice to me :)

http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031122/index.html

[Janak Parekh]

Tom's hardware just reviewed the new Creative Zen model, it looks pretty nice to me :)
Ah, I forgot about the Zens ;) They've also released a Zen "Xtra" model.

http://www.nomadworld.com/products/Jukebox_ZenXtra/

--janak

[Jereboam]

I am just putting my Zen up for sale. It's bigger and heavier and I find that I use the iPod MUCH more than I ever did the Zen. And now iTunes for Windows is out the iPod connects easily to the PC and there is really no reason to prefer the Zen...that was the original reasoning for me but not valid anymore. Oh, and if you are a fan of WMA then the iPod doesn't do it and the Zen does...but I personally think AAC or MP3 are better formats anyway.

The only difference between the new Zen and the old is the screen size - mainly.

J'bm

[Jereboam]

Great article (http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/30/magazine/30IPOD.html?pagewanted=1&ei=5062&en=6cc3b984324f9225&ex=1070773200) in the NY Times on the iPod and it's history, design and cult.

J'bm

[Janak Parekh]

The only difference between the new Zen and the old is the screen size - mainly.
In fairness, the new Zens are also a notch smaller, closer to the iPod. But I'm not switching. ;)

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Eliot Van Buskirk has a review of the Dell DJ, which he looks upon very favorably, including the design. It has much longer battery life than the iPod, which is my biggest gripe. Read his review (http://reviews.cnet.com/Dell_Digital_Jukebox_DJ__15GB_/4505-6490_7-30582921.html?tag=pdtl-list).

I hate to say this because the iPod is a wonderful digital audio device, but if I had to do it all over again....I'd go with the Dell DJ. It's cheaper, just as easy to use, has longer battery life, and supports the more popular Windows Media Format, which iPod does not. This way you aren't locked into one music store, as is the case with Apple's solution. You can buy music from Napster, BuyMusic.com, or MusicMatch. And the Dell DJ looks pretty damn nice, IMO.

Still, the iPod itself is a truly iconic classic. You really can't go wrong with either choice. You'll get some play with your wife for sure..although you might get a little more nooky if you go with the iPod, simply because it's a chic magnet. :wink:

[Jereboam]

Yeah...but have you checked out the DRM on those other music stores? Ouch.

And I have to say I wouldn't call WMA a popular format...it is optimised for low-bitrate encodings, and shines there, but if you really appreciate your music and want higher quality (which currently means higher bitrates) you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole. AAC is a good modern encoder with a few issues (like stereo/mono spasms occasionally), MP3 is showing age but has been so intensively tweaked as to overcome these technological shortfallings. And then we have Ogg, which sounds great but has a few quirks. I would really like to see Ogg take off...being open source and all.

I don't mind being locked in to one music store (despite being in Europe and being locked OUT...grrr) - as long as it's giving me what I want.

J'bm

[GoldKey]

I posted earlier on the Archos Gmini. This post was right after I bought it and was pretty happy with it out of the box. However after a bit of use, I think it is going back to the store. There are performance issues. The package says 10 hours of battery life. I am getting about 6. Also, the system has quite a bit of lag. From turning on the system it takes over a minute to get a song playing. The system often stops to think (it keeps playing music) but you can't adjust the volume, pause or skip during these 30 second periods. The screen does not update with the new song for 20 seconds after it starts playing. E-mails to their tech support are not answered and they have very little information on this product on their site. Finally, as I mentioned earlier, the fact that they cripple some of the features and force you to pay extra to activate them really burns me as well. The final straw was seeing that the Dell went on sale for $199 for the 15 GB model today. I am going to look for a coupon code tonight and see if I can get it even a little cheaper. After using one for a week, the two most important features to me are support and battery life. I would love to have the CF slot of the Gmini and the ability to copy music directly, without using the music match software, but these are things I am willing to give up for the other features.

[jeff]

If you want to pay a little more for a lot more capacity and better sound quality, Creative Labs is selling the Nomad Jukebox Zen Xtra 40GB with free noise cancelling headphones for $250.

http://us.creative.com/shop/promo.asp?id=1

And if anyone is looking for something the size of an iPod that isn't an iPod, check out the iRiver ihp-120. Newegg usually has it for around $360.

[NeoAxim]

Check out www.ipodlounge.com for all things iPod.

Yes the 3rd Gen has a significantly shorter battery life than the 1st or 2nd Gen iPods.

On a first or second Gen iPod with firmware 1.3 you can get between 10 and 12 hours depending on your use of backlight, scrolling, and choce of bit rate when encoding music.

On a 3rd Gen iPod while 8 hours is what it says on the box chances are unless you never touch the iPod while it is playing, have no backlight, encode all music at 128 or lower, all song files are 5 MB or less you won't hit the 8 hour mark.

Most report between 6 and 7 and a half hours of battery life. There are NUMEROUS threads on ipodlounge.com that exlplain this.

Also look into the iRiver iHP-100 http://www.iriveramerica.com/products/iHP-100.asp

Great all in one player. But iPod is still the MP3 standard.

[mrkablooey]

from geek.com

http://www.geek.com/gtoons/toons/gt112403.gif

[Jason Dunn]

And I have to say I wouldn't call WMA a popular format...it is optimised for low-bitrate encodings, and shines there, but if you really appreciate your music and want higher quality (which currently means higher bitrates) you wouldn't touch it with a barge pole.

In your opinion - I use WMA for all my encoding, and I typically encode at 192 to 256 Kbps bit rate, and it sounds superb. Everyone's ears are different, and while you may not like using WMA, to make a sweeping statement about the format being ill-suited for quality encoding is simply false.

[Jereboam]

Again you derive meaning which wasn't there, Jason. And anything I say is automatically my opinion, that is implied. And nowhere did I say that WMA was ill-suited to quality encoding. I specified that it was not suitable for those seeking "higher quality" which is predicated on what I have written below. And so for the sake of rebuttal...

Encoder quality is a highly subjective matter. I can state quite firmly that WMA is not as "transparent" to me as equivalent (or as near as possible) files encoded with LAME, Ogg and AAC. We could have a whole thread dedicated to "what is equivalent".

I want my music to sound as close to the original as possible, and therefore I step up in bitrate/quality until I can discern no difference and stop there. In other circumstances and for other people the acceptable threshold of quality may be lower (or higher).

Then again - I use expensive Sennheiser headphones (although not the best they make) and a Turtle Beach Santa Cruz soundcard which even in the age of the Audigy 2 is regarded as one of the best for stereo sources, although by no means an "audiophile" soundcard. This setup is the basis for all my statements. Your own setup may be better or worse and will equally influence your statements.

At that point, it is simply then a question of choosing which encoder has given me the smallest file size - iTunes-encoded AAC at 224Kbps vs LAME at --alt-preset-standard both sound excellent to me, but AAC file sizes generally come out smaller. Ogg would be a contender but isn't widely supported - something I would like to see change. WMA is widely supported, but not by my iPod so quite apart from quality it is out of the running. But don't count that as a bias against it - I like WMP9 a lot and would love to be able to use one format across all my devices.

But...

Above 128kbps the quality gains with WMA are less marked than with other encoders, and some noise problems are retained no matter how far up you go. Microsoft's own comparative offerings (when WMA9 was released) have stayed under 128kbps.

Other encoders will genuinely start to approach the original the higher bitrate (or quality switches) you use. They all have their quirks though - notably AAC will sometimes, although rarely (3 songs out of thousands in my case) exhibit crackling/popping and stereo dropping out to mono. And I have found that classical music encoded into AAC really pumps the file size up.

Therefore, although I can use less emotive language if you prefer, I stand by my statement, qualified thus -

WMA is superb for bitrates<~128kbps but less improvement is seen above that level, which leads me to state that other encoders such as LAME, AAC (Quicktime/iTunes - haven't played with Nero) and Ogg Vorbis are much better encoders to use for those seeking higher quality and/or transparency for their music files, when they are played on a setup where the difference in quality will be perceived.

It should be noted that I refer to WMA9 as supposed to WMA9 Pro, which is supposed to be excellent and a genuine step forward for the format, but effectively is a new encoder and therefore not widely supported (yet). I have not tried it at all, just read about it on the web.

I hope that was the basis for debate, Jason, rather than argument. I know that you are somewhat involved with digital media so would be interested to continue.

BTW, your own assertion that my statement is "simply false" is equally merely your own opinion. ;)

Genuinely looking forward to your answer.

J'bm

[Steven Cedrone]

One other thing: any one know of the Creative NOMAD Jukebox Zen Xtra??? (http://us.creative.com/products/product.asp?category=3&subcategory=21&product=9288)

It has a removable battery, and seems to be a decent player...

Steve

[PetiteFlower]

Didn't I post the Tom's Hardware review of that thing?

[PetiteFlower]

Yes in fact I did, but here it is again :p

http://www6.tomshardware.com/mobile/20031122/index.html

[Steven Cedrone]

Didn't I post the Tom's Hardware review of that thing?

Damn... :oops:

Yup, you sure did....

Thanks!!!

Steve

[Steven Cedrone]

Just wanted to post a quick follow-up (before I forget, yet again)...

Purchased the iPod for the wife. Even the packaging is sexy...

Apple did a heck of a job with iPod, the accessories, and the music download site...

I am not an Apple person, but as far as this device goes, they really hit a home run... :way to go:

If the packaging of the iPod is indicative of how Apple does things, I now understand why people have "unpacking parties"... :wink:

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

Purchased the iPod for the wife. Even the packaging is sexy...
Congrats. Curiosity question: did it come bundled with MusicMatch or iTunes?

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

iTunes...

It's amazing how much you can spend... :wink:

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

iTunes...
That's good. BTW, if it wasn't bundled with 4.2, download the update from itunes.com.

It's amazing how much you can spend... :wink:
Especially when it's so easy.

BTW, if you haven't done it already, when you're in the (local) Library, hit the Browse button in the upper-right-hand corner, which brings up the NEXT-like browser. That is one of my favorite features in iTunes. :)

--janak

[Steven Cedrone]

BTW, if you haven't done it already, when you're in the (local) Library, hit the Browse button in the upper-right-hand corner, which brings up the NEXT-like browser. That is one of my favorite features in iTunes. :)

Thanks Janak, I'll check it out (when I can get the iPod from the wife)...

I have to be honest here, I bought this for my wife knowing that she is a technophobe, I figured it would be mine in a week... :twisted:

No such luck... :evil:

Worst part about it: she found out about all of the iCool iAccesories that you can get for the device. Man, this is costing me... :wink:

iSteve :roll: :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

I have to be honest here, I bought this for my wife knowing that she is a technophobe, I figured it would be mine in a week... :twisted:
Uh, there was your mistake, Steve. :razzing: If you wanted her to give it up, you should have gotten a more "complex", less svelte device. The iPod has joined the cell phone as a mass-accepted consumer technology. I mean, I was watching a rerun of ER last Thursday, and one of the actors is carrying an iPod and even explains what it is to another actor... in the Congo. 8O

The "browse" feature is on the desktop, though, so you can still play with that. :)

--janak

[mrkablooey]

Great post, iSteve. ;) You're her hero now if you weren't before. :D