Palm Vs. Pocket PC [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Ed Hansberry

11-15-2003, 08:00 PM

<a href="http://www.comp-talk.co.uk/Framesets/POS%20v%20PPC.htm">http://www.comp-talk.co.uk/Framesets/POS%20v%20PPC.htm</a><br /><br />Thomas Kuglin has been a loyal Palm OS user but decided to see what it was like on the other side and acquired an iPAQ 2215. <br /><br />"For just over two and a half years I'd been a loyal Palm OS user and fan. It started with the release of the Palm m100: a (relatively) cheap, basic handheld - perfect for me to use, to see if I liked the notion of a "PDA". (And I would like to just go off topic here, to point out how much of a difference there is in what you get for your money now, compared to three years ago!) Anyway, I kept that m100 for a full year, during which I think I learnt everything I knew about the Palm OS. And I loved it! But I needed more... more power! More memory! More gadgetry! The answer? Palm's m505 handheld - top of the range at the time. Again, I used that for a year - but then out came the first ever Palm OS5 must-have: the Palm Tungsten|T. Oh I couldn't resist. I was soon the happy owner of it I can tell you! Anyway, in August I decided to "investigate" what all those die-hard Pocket PC fans could possibly like with their handhelds, by acquiring a HP iPaq 2215. It's been a "fun-filled" couple of months with this new PDA, and I now feel I know enough about it to give an honest, and more importantly, unbiased, comparison between the two handheld computer operating systems: Palm OS5 and Windows Mobile for Pocket PCs 2003 Premium Edition."

11-15-2003, 08:16 PM

It was a nice read... he´s right on important things. I know Palm is simplier, and that hotsync is better than active sync... but the only reason i´ll stick to my iPAQ is Pocket Informant. But if any day PI for palm OS appears, i´ll buy a Palm. The ppc interface is full of useless displacement bars and title bars.

11-15-2003, 08:32 PM

I have to disagree with your thought on the interface. I find that my today screen, using the Program Bar supplied with Battery Pack is much easier and quicker to use than any of the Palms I've had. The task switcher that comes in BP is also great for switching quickly between apps - obviously no need for that with POS!

Although I do like some of the new hardware from pa1mOne and Sony, I would not go back to a device with the current POS. Be interesting to see what both WM2004 and POS 6.0 bring us next year.

Regarding new platforms for PI, I would be tempted to go with a Zaurus, the clamshell one, if I could use Pocket Informant on it. (And Textmaker and Repligo and ........ )

volwrath

11-15-2003, 09:43 PM

dcharles18

11-15-2003, 09:52 PM

I disagree with alot of this. First of all, I love Block Recognizer. I've never had any problems with it's accuracy, as a matter of fact, that's why I use it, because of its accuracy. His entire issue in regards to program installation on storage cards is totally inaccurate, and I am sick to death of people complaining about the close issue. I've lost track of the number of freeware solutions there are for this. Lastly, if you need to see more cells in Excel, go to the settings an adjust the zoom size!

DREAMWEAVER

11-15-2003, 10:18 PM

I dont know what the fuss is about. I never had problems with activesynch, I have never had my iPAQs freeze and transciber are by far the faster input methods for me. I have compared the volume of notes I have taken to an experienced palm user sitting next to me. I am always way a head. We think in words not letters. :)

Cortex

11-15-2003, 11:22 PM

i think he makes some excellent points. the biggest is that out of the box most users will find pocket pc's a little annoying.

i love them but i also know how to make them work.

a friend of mine recently just bought a 1945 and i sold him an sd card and showed him how to put some data on it. about 3 days later he called me and said that file explorer no longer showed any data on the sd card and he was wondering if he needed to return the device. i suggested a soft reset and the card reappeared with the data. but how confusing is that? he probably would have returned the device if we hadn't talked. could i blame him if he told me pocket pc sucks?

bottom line is that many people dont have the patience to deal with the quirks of the pocket pc os. buying and installing 3rd party apps to make up for the gaps. and never really needing the power.

so for some, i guess palm makes more sense.

i should add that some of his points skim over the answers to his complaints.

he rags on transcriber and block recognizer but doenst mention letter recognizer -- odd.

he complains about screen real estate but doesnt mention you can minimize the writing area, go to full screen mode, or change the resolution -- odd.

he praises the home button on palm but then doesnt want to assign the programs page to a button on pocket pc (as though its an effort) -- odd.

maybe its his device, but to be honest 99% of the time activestink works. i just get extremely angry the 1% of the time it flakes out. so i'm not sure why he had so much trouble with it -- odd.

i cant really defend the uninstall orphan files and files being spread everywhere argument. some aspects are irritating as hell, such as programs sticking data files in the windows directory when i've asked the program to be installed on the sd card. some of that is sloppy programming on the part of 3rd party apps, but i suspect that the os to some extent requires some library files to be in the windows directory (since so many end up there). not sure why but eats up my RAM.
i do wish developers were a little more obsessive compulsive about organizing things, being clean and putting program folders/files where they belong.

(SPB GPRS MONITOR can take a lesson on that one -- whats with all of the files and folders piling up in the MyComputer directory?)

ekjl

11-15-2003, 11:27 PM

I use to hate Activestink cause it would always disconnect on me every 5 minutes, so it was near impossible to transfer large files over to my cards. But now that I've got WinXP, Activesync seems to be behaving properly; I hardly ever get disconnected anymore. Oh, I was using WinMe before.

And the only times my 2215 freeze is because I installed some bad programs by some bad developers *cough*calligrapher*cough*. I chose to just use the default input method and not have calligrapher installed and I've been running fine for 2 months now without ever once freezing, as compared to 3 soft resets a day >_< But it's all good now ^_^

toxostoma

11-15-2003, 11:29 PM

... obviously no need for that with POS!

It took me just a little while to figure out what POS stood for. :mrgreen:

I thought that the article definitely pointed out some short coming that Microsoft should work on. The funny thing is that the most loyal PPC users have been saying this for a couple of years and frankly MS hasn't changed things.

On closing Apps
As far as closing apps goes, all I have to say is :pukeface: . It's a flaw of the OS, but apps like Wisebar do such a good job. Out of fairness, he could have at least mentioned that these apps exist. All he said was that "Thankfully, some bright Pocket PC manufacturers include a task manager app with Pocket PC to save you this bother." This makes it sound like you can't get this functionality on all PPCs, which aint true.

On ActiveStink
I agree that Active Sync just isn't as good as it should be. I've been having problems lately with ActiveSync not fully running through a sync. It will say something like "unable to synchronize 12 items" for inbox, and even if I select inbox with my mouse, right click and hit "synchronize", it'll still say "unable to synchronize 12 items." (I suspect that everything may actually be synchronized, but that it's just confused over the count). If I disconnect and reconnect my PDA, it'll work just fine. There are also times where after a sync, some items are not synchroized (the AS icon is yellow, not green). If I select them and choose synchronize, they'll sync. Both of these problems are so stupid. Why, after being around for a long time, is AS still having these problems?

However, I've never had AS just delete stuff. (Maybe I'm lucky?) I don't hear other people complaining about it all the time either.

On Stability
Yes, the PPC isn't quite as stable as the Palm OS. Every now and then it locks up and soft resets are necessary. But the tone this guy took made it sound like you couldn't use a PPC for over 5 minutes without it crashing. My experience with several PPCs has been good in terms of stability. They're a heck of a lot more stable than the Windows 9x kernel, that's for sure!

On handwriting recognition
Okay, here's my :soapbox: . I cannot stand MS Transcriber. I find that block recogizer is pretty good, though slower. Transcriber makes me so mad because it tries to guess what word you're writing. Here's an example. I was trying to look up a contact yesterday and I wrote his last name - "Allred." Transcriber, trying to match the word to some recognized word in it's dictionary turned it into "Allied." Thinking I might have been just a little sloppy writing it, I rewrote it very meticulously. A-l-l-r-e-d. "Allied". Tried again. "Allied." An 'r' vs. an 'i'. An 'i' has a dot above it for goodness sakes! I just want to scream at how maddening this program can be. :bad-words: (A real POS :) ) Text entry is perhaps THE most important part of a user's interaction with their PDA. And instead of improving it, MS is creating $40 apps like voice command. Calligrapher, which is just a better(?) version of Transcriber, gives you an option that prevents the program from trying to guess what word you're writing. I cannot even begin to fathom why transcriber won't give you the same option. (I may buy Calligrapher soon, or maybe wait till Christmas :wink:)

More than anything, I just want to see some real improvement from MS to the very basics of their PDA platform. Better handwriting recognition, better active sync, better word and excel support. By the time PPC 2002 came out, they should have had these greatly improved, and yet here we are, four years later, and they remain the same.

jnunn

11-15-2003, 11:55 PM

The writer of the review would have realized much more utility of the PPC if he had used a couple core applications.

The first one is free and offers such power and flexibility to the PPC that I would hardly consider using my iPAQ without it: GigaBar. I have read that people complain that GigaBar is difficult to set up so Palm users, kindergarten teachers, and the like might latch on to that complaint.

The other is FITALY for text input. FITALY offers far more power on the PPC than the Palm (T3 possibly excluded) due to the virtual keyboard and is essential to me. FITALY requires a learning curve but is well worth the endeavor for the speed and power that it provides. Again, if the user is uninitiated then learning a new keyboard may not be his or her style.

Those two applications to me fill in what the PPC OS is missing at the basic input and task management level. I believe that users should compare devices (including price) by considering how they will actually use the device (i.e. applications) rather than by what is loaded out of the box. Utility is the benchmark.

Here are my other indispensable applications: TextMaker, Lextionary, and Pocket Informant (or Agenda Fusion to be fair).

darius779

11-16-2003, 12:48 AM

I can't believe how unstable the pocket pc OS is.. I may even have to soft reset it weekly! :twak:

jnunn

11-16-2003, 12:59 AM

I am running PPC OS-2000 on my ancient 32MB iPAQ3600 and I can't remember the last time I reset. My experience with resetting is not the OS but the 3rd party applications.

I keep TextMaker, Lexionary, Pocket Informant, and GigaBar running at all times (usually Reader too) so if the OS was a problem then the way I tax my small memory would see a preponderance of crashes. If I were you, I would try to isolate the program that is crashing and then contact the vendor.

leshman

11-16-2003, 01:05 AM

I think his article is geared towards the casual user, i.e. someone who buys a PDA, sets up ActiveSync/Palm Desktop, and uses whatever programs come in the box. Most non-tech people either don't know how to install third party apps or don't want to bother due to stability issues. There are many apps out there for both OS's which address some of the shortcomings, but that wasn't the point of the article.

he praises the home button on palm but then doesnt want to assign the programs page to a button on pocket pc (as though its an effort) -- odd.

Again, I know a lot of people who have no idea that you can remap any of the buttons on a Pocket PC or Palm.

The writer of the review would have realized much more utility of the PPC if he had used a couple core applications

I go back to my previous statement: I don't think this article was for tech people. It was aimed more at people who want something to work out of the box.

Just my 2 cents.

Foo Fighter

11-16-2003, 01:23 AM

Ed Hansberry

11-16-2003, 01:33 AM

Chairman Clench

11-16-2003, 01:45 AM

maybe its his device, but to be honest 99% of the time activestink works. i just get extremely angry the 1% of the time it flakes out. so i'm not sure why he had so much trouble with it -- odd.

Hmmm... do you think it would have gotten the nickname "Activestink" if it really worked 99% of the time? I seriously doubt it. AS is the single worst element of the PPC platform. If the device crashes, you can reset it. When AS doesn't work (and it worked only about 60%) of the time for me) all you can do is plug and unplug the device... reset the device... re-boot the PC... and pray that it works next time.

Ed Hansberry

11-16-2003, 01:50 AM

AS does work most of the time. The key issue is that when it doesn't, at a minimum a reboot is required. Other times, it can be so fatal you would spend less time reinstalling your OS and apps than troubleshooting AS, and that is enough to make people return their devices. :( AS needs a thorough overhaul, no doubt, but for most people, it just works. It tends to run into problems with power users that have tons of devices, USB hubs and a bazillion apps.

Chairman Clench

11-16-2003, 01:53 AM

Useless titlebars? The PPC titlebar works exactly like the PalmOS titlebar. How coulde it be "useless" when it serves the same purpose?
Because it is Microsoft. See, "Microsoft" has 9 letters. "Palm" has 4. Therefore, all MS stuff is bloated (7 letters) and Palm is zen (3 letters.) Simple logic really. Surprised you haven't gotten this yet Foo. :wink:

Sorry, your logic doesn't hold water anymore.

PalmSource (The OS company) = 10 letters

So... PalmOS is actually MORE complex/bloated/useless than Windows Mobile! Spread the word!

Oh wait...

PalmOS = 6 letters
Windows Mobile 2003 For PocketPC = 28 letters (not counting spaces)

I guess you were right after all. WM2003 is 400%+ more bloated than PalmOS.

Let's not even talk about Windows Mobile 2003 For Pocket PC Phone Edition.

11-16-2003, 02:04 AM

The ppc interface is full of useless displacement bars and title bars.

Useless titlebars? The PPC titlebar works exactly like the PalmOS titlebar. How coulde it be "useless" when it serves the same purpose?

What i meant was that all title bars are useless, since they use screen space. I said that the PPC title bars were useless because i can´t hide them, since few programs supports full screen.

I think that PPC could be the perfect pda os, they just need to make better use of the screen real state.

And for displacement bars, give us the choice to hide them, and to use the D-Pad instead.

11-16-2003, 02:06 AM

Foo Fighter

11-16-2003, 02:32 AM

Oh, I think you are referring to the menu bar (*File - Edit - View, etc.) which appears at the bottom of the screen, not the titlebar that appears at the top of your screen.

Timothy Rapson

11-16-2003, 03:03 AM

I want the file system from PPC, but I want the zippy responsiveness that only comes with a single tasking database centered OS.

I want the super prices of the full featured PPC models with dual slot models selling for less than $350 and single slot models like the still fairly current Toshiba E355 selling at TigerDirect for $150! But, I want the cache of buying the upstart Palm hardware. Rooting for David (POS) over Goliath (MS).

I want the stability of the PPC, no better yet the POS, no what I really want is the flawless stability of EPOC or Linux.

I want Textmaker, PocketArtist, and Resco Photo and File that are only for the PPC in their current full featured versions. But, I want Laridian MyBible, WordSmith, and Bugme in their POS versions.

I want the fonts and graphic support in PPC. I also want the HVGA screens of the T3 and Clies. Hey, it looks like PPC is close to ending this debate for a long time with the Toshiba E800, but we'll see how well it's supported.

I like the way ActiveSync is designed so that it offers all the features of Palm's Hotsync and Sony's Memory Stick Import (for getting files from desktop to card) at the same time all the time without even having to run any program. Just set it in the cradle. But, then again, ActiveStink just doesn't work as it is designed to much of the time. Alarms are alarmingly missed on the PPC as well.

The bottom line for me right now, is that I can't stand the PPC resets, freezes, lockups. Even if it is only a couple of times a week, I just can't stand to be in the middle of entering someone's address and having it not work. The Clie locks up a couple of times a month, but never in the native apps that I use when I am talking to someone, so I can wait for the reset in private.

What I would most love is a Symbian Quartz. Think I am ever going to get one? Probably not, and the way things are going my next PDA may be a Sony P900 phone for $99 with contract.

farnold

11-16-2003, 12:10 PM

Ah, I find these "My Palm is better than your PocketPC" discussions just so entertaining - espcially when you know the outcome right from the beginning. Just like a romantic movie... they will get each other in the end against all odds :D

Actually I think there is one point that continues driving people towards PALM: it's just not Microsoft. And starting from this end people are so willing to accept a little and big miscomfort here and there - and even believe that they don't. Linux vs. Windows is the same discussion. It's about emotions, not about reality.

But there is a damn good thing in it. At least in these religious wars no soldiers being forced to fullfil useless policies and no people get killed... OK, some might get bored to death 0X

ppcsurfr

11-16-2003, 04:01 PM

Hmmm... do you think it would have gotten the nickname "Activestink" if it really worked 99% of the time? I seriously doubt it. AS is the single worst element of the PPC platform. If the device crashes, you can reset it. When AS doesn't work (and it worked only about 60%) of the time for me) all you can do is plug and unplug the device... reset the device... re-boot the PC... and pray that it works next time.

That's how they called it when it came out... and for the next few versions...

But then people normally blame ActiveSync everytime something goes wrong but fail to look at the junk they sometimes load up into their PCs that start mesing things up big time.

Well, some people are lucky... While I myself would experience maybe about 1 or 2 flaky connections every 6 months... it's sometimes caused by lack of memory in the PPC due to several running apps that I should have exited first.

It works for me... I'm happy with it... but I know something can still be done to make it better... it's always like that anyway.

Mabuhay! ~ Carlo

shawnc

11-16-2003, 04:11 PM

William Yeung

11-16-2003, 04:13 PM

Let me try to be very honest here: I have to really agree with many points being point out on the paragraph.

Pocket PC has the major pitfall in terms of stability- I can see everyday other PDAs user are laughing us that we have a wonderful multimedia toy with no accurate alarm.

Talking about close program- I really dont care if the system close the program or not, what I care is I dont have to bother- Pocket PC tries to do it but failed. Too many times I have seen application complaining not enough memory while I rarely see one in Palm. Palm serialize the program state (suspend) while its in a flash, many case most productivity program is very fast to suspend and resume, while in Pocket PC, even when the program is not being closed it still take hxxl long to resume because the funny lack of memory situation on the OS (if you have more alarm you will feel that 10+ secs slowdown while turning the unit on)

Not to mention individual poor quality implementation of OEMs, while there are significantly less OEMs in Palm, they maintain quality- at least Palm themselve in terms of the basic reliability need to provide from a PDA. Check http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88244 you will know what I mean. (HP you hear me?)

I really get very moved to go back to Palm, after my 8th Pocket PC (h5450) experience. They improved the OS while they come up with the basics missing. MS is not on the track yet, sadto say here.

If you still not sure and feel I am crazy- goto find an old iPAQ you can play around, install OPIE (http://opie.handhelds.org) and then you know how much speed should your XScale actually deliver. Linux has the basics you praised about Pocket PC- good file system, multitask, while they dont inherit the slowness of Pocket PC.

Users need a PC in pocket- this is the deadly wrong direction MS has been heading to. They have did a good revolution on Pocket PC 2000, but that moment doesn't keep up- they forgot to get rid of bugs before they think about bringing fancy features on the platform.

MS, hurry up if you want to keep yourself successful in long term. Otherwise I can see when Palm OS 6 come out, with the added functionality (lets say still just 80% of Pocket PC) while they are doing rock solid stable, bye bye MS, try your attack from the ground again, but for now you will be Nepolean- Waterloo.

shawnc

11-16-2003, 04:28 PM

Ah, I find these "My Palm is better than your PocketPC" discussions just so entertaining - espcially when you know the outcome right from the beginning. Just like a romantic movie... they will get each other in the end against all odds :D

I agree that the outcome of most of these "objective" discussions often seems predetermined. However, what I find even more dissappointing is when folks dismiss any pro-Palm opinions as simply based on some sort of anti-MS bias. This paranoia attempts to trivialize the very valid opinions regarding the shortcomings of the PPC. Shortcomings that amazingly still exist after all this time.

I've had both and I like the PPC better (though not by much). But lets stop trivializing dissenting opinions as simply based on some irrational MS bias. Believe it or not, some of us are fed up with the myriad PPC issues simply because we are fed up with the myriad PPC issues. Got nothing to do with bias or how many letters are in MS.

mscdex

11-16-2003, 04:33 PM

This is a bit offtopic, but the html file name in the link posted in the original post here... it says POS vs PPC. :lol:

11-16-2003, 05:06 PM

sub_tex

11-16-2003, 07:23 PM

Everyone gets upset when articles like this are written, but these articles aren't written for people like us!

Most of the problems he has with either OS can be fixed with many (and mostly) free apps and have become an almost standard when getting a new PDA.

It's a crazy thought but TONS of people NEVER install anything else to their PDA. They buy it and use it --- AS IS.

The thought boggles my mind, but it's true.

It's not worth arguing over. At all.

It's also inevitable when someone writes an article and says "x function on my PDA crashed my system 64 times! I hate x." that we'll be flooded with posts saying "x has never crashed on me for 12 years! x works fine. This guy doesn't know what he's talking about. . ."

:roll:

Enough already, people! Look at who the article was written for. Chances are the people it was written for won't even know it exists anyhow (they seem to never realize there are resources for their device on the internet at all!)

huangzhinong

11-16-2003, 07:54 PM

The author try to be unbiased for all features existed in both POS and PPC. Unfortunately he left out all functions which can be done by PPC but not POS. Maybe he doesn't know them at all.

It's not easy to write a review to compare PPC and POS for a long time POS user since it is very difficult to admit there are still many things can only be possible in PPC. I always own both PPC and POS devices for more than 3 years, I know Palm is simpler, but that's all advantage. PPC is more like a PC, tons of resets. BUT if you want to make a PALM like a PC, more resets than PPC.

There are some interesting stuff the author didn't methion or doesn't know.

1. POS is good at PIM. But none of POS PIM apps can compare with PI and AF in PPC, not even half features in PPC.

2. POS is simpler, but none of apps can be simpler than PPC's today.

3. POS can play audio and video now, but none of them did even better than the earilest PPC.

But POS will survive and live longer, because there is a market for simple PIM device. Now, PPC is still too complicated and too many resets for this market(sub $100).

Ed Hansberry

11-16-2003, 08:05 PM

But POS will survive and live longer, because there is a market for simple PIM device. Now, PPC is still too complicated and too many resets for this market(sub $100).Palm is in a tough position.

1) Basic PIM needs are being met by an increasing number of cell phones. Why buy any PDA for that?
2) When it comes to high end device functionality, all PPCs are capable of just about anything. Some have wireless integrated, others with cards. But VPN, video, music, office, terminal server, easy to use file system for big cards. They all do it. Few if any Palm devices do. They all have one or more features missing.
3) With PPCs coming down to $199, that leaves a very narrow band where Palm is the only choice. And as I said, smart phones are creeping up from the bottom of functionallity.

shawnc

11-16-2003, 08:40 PM

It took me just a little while to figure out what POS stood for. :mrgreen:

Kind of embarrasing, but it took me a while as well. Whenever I saw the acronym I always thought it meant "piece of s***". :oops:
So you want to buy a POS from pa1mOne? :lol:

LOL at your post. Unfortunately, the problems I continue to have with my PPC are pushing me in that direction.

SandersP

11-16-2003, 08:43 PM

Those cheapie $99 Palm will soon die and be eaten alive by Smartphone. The mpx200 is already priced at $79. Granted it's a phone, subsidies, contract, etc etc...

but that's the point. It's priced less than low end PDA. As soon as Smartphone has more apps than basic essentials, it's game over for majority of Zire sales.

kaiden.1

11-16-2003, 11:28 PM

Very good read! He was very honest and truely spoke from his own experience and I didn't feel like he was biased in his approach. One of the first real reviews that I think was truely straight oppinion and done extremely well. We can all relate to a lot of it.

Thanks for the link guys. :D

Wiggin

11-17-2003, 12:36 AM

As others have stated, I enjoy these threads about POS vs PPC.
In reading the responses on this one, it strikes me that one key factor of the "choice" hasn't been mentioned... namely, the platform of the COMPUTER that the POS/PPC buyer will use.

It seems to me (in my ridiculously small sample set of friends who use a POS device :D ) that almost every POS user is a MAC/Apple computer user. The simple fact of the matter is that PPC devices (current and old models) just do NOT behave well with MAC/App platforms. Oh sure, there are various software products one can buy to help with the Sync, but most of them are buggie and very tempermental. On the flip side, I know of very few POS users who are entirely happy with the communication process with a Windows computer, and I would NEVER advise someone to make a POS device their first handheld device if they are a Windows computer user. :jester:

So, the debate can rage on, and I'll sit back and grin as the barbs are thrown back and forth about "feature this" vs "function that" and "ease of use" ... whoops
(rant alert :soapbox: ... EASE OF USE??!! Who is authorized to say what is easy for others? One man's frustration is another man's joy! Why do you think Italian sports cars / motorcycles are so popular? Ease of Use has NOTHING to do with it!... I've dropped crazy money on multiple Ducati's and they have been a constant pain in the arse to maintain... and I still wouldn't trade a single one for an "easy to use" Honda/Yamaha/etc.... I find the PPC ridiculously easy to use... and I find the POS devices very strange ... but I've been using PPC devices since they hit the market...so that's just me. I don't need someone to try and tell me how easy or hard the PPC is... how about just stating the facts please!! ok, Rant Off)

When all is said and done, a Pocket device needs to talk / work / sync well with the computer that serves as its base. As long as Apple and MS maintain their distance from each other on compatibility, much of the POS vs PPC decision was already decided when the interested buyer selected their Computer. :i got it:

Rage on everyone! :agrue:

leshman

11-17-2003, 04:48 PM

It seems to me (in my ridiculously small sample set of friends who use a POS device ) that almost every POS user is a MAC/Apple computer user

Hmm, that's an odd statement. Every Palm user that I know is using a PC. I think you need to get out and meet more people.

iomatic

11-17-2003, 08:23 PM

Time= Money

My personal experience allows me to experiment with platforms, and to see which will fare better for me. Following is a highly anecdotal note. Percentage of maintenance (including reinstalls, reconfiguring) to overall use (remaining time usually means productivity):

Palm OS--approx. 10-15%
Pocket PC--approx. 30-40%

Based on this admittedly unqualified survey, I'm switching back to Palm--yeah, I know.

The author does make good points on usability regarding both platforms. I find Pocket PC users generally defensive about the platform, without acknowledging (possibly out of ignorance) the salient points of the Palm OS.

US$.02

Good luck, all.

Chairman Clench

11-17-2003, 10:47 PM

It seems to me (in my ridiculously small sample set of friends who use a POS device :D ) that almost every POS user is a MAC/Apple computer user.

If this were true, Palm would not have the most market share of all the PDAs out there. There aren't nearly enough Mac users out there to propel Palm to the #1 spot. As a matter of fact, no one that I know who has a Palm uses a Mac.

That being said, the way that syncing is build into the MacOS is a thing of true beauty. Microsoft are you listening?

Chairman Clench

11-17-2003, 10:50 PM

Most of the problems he has with either OS can be fixed with many (and mostly) free apps and have become an almost standard when getting a new PDA.

It's a crazy thought but TONS of people NEVER install anything else to their PDA. They buy it and use it --- AS IS.

This is true... EXCEPT when you complain about having to reset the device too many times or ActiveSync not working the first thing that happens is that everyone blames you for installing 3rd party apps! Just look through this thread... there are a least 2 references to blaming 3rd party apps for Activesync not working and PPCs having to be reset too often.

So, it is a catch 22... apparently to overcome the problems with the OS you have to add 3rd party apps... except when you add 3rd party apps, you have to expect instability. Doesn't make much sense to me.

jnunn

11-18-2003, 12:17 AM

I am one of the references toward people blaming 3rd party applications for PPC resets. I simply do not reset my iPAQ although I simultaneously run hefty 3rd party applications that I task switch through GigaBar. In the past I had applications that coincided with a need to reset but I unistalled those applications and my stability was recovered.

By my experience with my iPAQ3600 alone since y2000 I have observed that some applications cause resets and others do not. I also do not have ActiveSync problems although I synchronize files from TextMaker, Reader, IE, Excel, and voice notes every day. Maybe I am just lucky but I have never seen what all the ActiveSync complaints were about.

I do not play games, watch videos, or listen to MP3s on my iPAQ just because I do not think of my iPAQ for relaxation outside of reading and writing. Perhaps if I did then I might see more stability problems like I saw with some applications.

So that is my secret towards having a stable, ancient, and personally empowering PPC.

bothari

11-18-2003, 07:45 PM

I use a PPC *and* i develop for it, so i'm not exactly a PalmOS fanboy. That said:
1 - One cannot expect/wish/think that Joe Consumer (A.K.A. the market where device makers want to make money) *has* to keep an eye on his 3rd Party apps! The O.S. is suposed to do that, and recover graciously form whatever idiocy the apps try to do! Any other expectation is irrealistic.

2 - Activesync: On an old palm III i keep around just for kicks, all i have to do after a full memory wipe is re-sync. Actually, in a brand new Palm Os device (if i had one) it would be the same. On a ppc... Let's not talk about that. And the lock-ups.... and the "x items not syncronised" until you reset... and ...and ......

3 - Interface... Well, let's just say that whoever thinks that PPC is easier to use hasn't actually sat down and *learned* the little subtle details which make the PalmOS so much .... simpler!
The first "work" chapter in a PPC Programming book, after the introductory chapters, is usually about technical limitations and capabilities of CE. The same thing in a PalmOS book is *ALL* on usability.

4 - General Stability: I have stopped recomending PPC to people, tell them to just "use what you like". I got tired of doing free support to all who said "i bought it 'cause you said it was cool and pwerfull and we could do more neat stuff on it, but it's allways crashing!"

I have since noticed that most non-geeks i know end up buying p800's or Palms. Geeks buys PPC's.

'nuff said.

PetiteFlower

11-18-2003, 08:23 PM

I find Pocket PC users generally defensive about the platform, without acknowledging (possibly out of ignorance) the salient points of the Palm OS.

Interestingly enough, I find Palm users to act in exactly the same manner with regards to their chosen OS.

crairdin

11-21-2003, 04:54 PM

An interesting review, though obviously written by someone with several years of experience with a Palm and several minutes of experience with Pocket PC. As others have pointed out, there are easy fixes to almost all the shortcomings mentioned in the article.

What this is not is an "unbiased" review. I'm not sure that's possible. For example: To complain about uninstall issues and not mention that some Palm apps leave unremovable bits of themselves in other programs' databases as part of a copy protection scheme is irresponsible.

To complain about memory card issues and not mention that the Palm OS has an entirely different file structure for memory cards vs. internal memory is rediculous. Programs loaded on a Palm memory card cannot be launched from other programs or in response to system timers or alerts. Databases loaded on a memory card are orders of magnitude slower because large portions of them must be loaded into internal memory by the OS. What the end user doesn't realize is that every program developed for Palm must include code that treats memory card data 100% differently from internally stored data, or it won't be commercially viable.

Also not mentioned is the degree to which OEMs have to modify the OS to get functionality they want. Simple example: Our Windows CE programs run on devices with resolution from 200x320 to 800x600 with no changes. If HP shipped a device tomorrow with 421x637 resolution, our apps wouldn't even notice -- they'd just use the entire screen at full resolution and not stop.

But the Palm OS doesn't have this flexibility. Every OEM creates their own graphics modes in which to run. So special code has to be written in every single Palm OS app to handle every new Sony device with a new screen resolution or orientation.

I have about a dozen PDAs. I use a Sony UX50 and HP 2215 on a regular basis. They're both fine. I use the Graffiti-like recognizer on the HP and it works great. No more or less accuracy errors than with Graffiti. I'm just getting used to Graffiti 2 and so far don't like it. But I'm sure I'll get used to it.

ActiveSync and HotSync work fine for me every time. My HP hasn't ever locked up and lost all its data.

I'm not saying Pocket PC is better, I'm saying this review is far from unbiased and far from thorough.

Craig

madmaxmedia

11-21-2003, 06:23 PM

By the time Palm OS 6 comes out, I think the 2 platforms will be very similar. The main question will be who's implementation is better? I very much agree with Timothy's points on page 2 or 3 about wanting Feature A from POS, but Feature B from PPC, etc...

When I really think about it, here are the reasons why I own a Tungsten T3-

1. Documents To Go for synchronization of files without formatting loss. It's in ROM, I don't have to spend money on a different program, and both Word and Excel are included. When Softmaker comes out with their similar package I'll take a look.

2. Somewhat less crashprone. OTOH, it's not a night-and-day thing anymore. It's practically inevitable that the more complex something gets, the more bugs that will occur. I do have to reset my T3 once every couple of days. As long as my data isn't lost I don't mind.

3. Shadow Outliner is Palm only. I've gotten very used to using this program, and don't want to switch (and have to convert a bunch of files).

4. The T3 is 480 x 320, and built-in Bluetooth. I connect via my BT cell phone (cheap if not fast), and internet with the 480 x 320 screen is very nice.

5. I used to own a Jornada 568, and my memories of it are very so-so. The promise of a lot of features, but it just wasn't as easy to use, and not as responsive for sure. I just ended up not using it as much.

Anyway, those are just my personal reasons. BTW I use Windows computers, and my Palm works perfectly with them (especially the T3 with new built-in Outlook synchronization). Speaking of Outlook synchronization, why didn't PPC include something to sync with Notes? I know HPC Notes and other programs are available, just seemed lacking to me not to include something built-in.

I'd like to see what would happen if Microsoft went back to the drawing board and came out with a bottom-up rewrite (like POS 6 will be), but it seems they won't be devoting the resources. They could really optimize the OS, rework some interface stuff (like closing programs out of the box), rework Pocket Office to at least match Docs To Go, and make ActiveSync bulletproof (or as close as possible). I think we can all agree that would be very appealing.

prowler

11-21-2003, 07:08 PM

I used to have a Treo 180, my first PDA. Then I lost it...rats. Had been thinking of PPC for a long while, oh the lure of that screen. And after all I am a software professional working exclusively on enterprise apps for the MS platform. Bought an iPAQ 2215, bought two best in category applications - CodeWallet Sync Pack and PI. Severely disappointed in what passes for "best" app in CodeWallet. The program cannot even do a record level sync!! Is it ActiveSync? I thought SQL Server CE is pretty powerful for merge-replication. I don't call that sync, it is a file copy! SplashWallet on the Palm works great. Also, CodeWallet allowed me in several times without a password (didn't lock after inactivity)!! Woah there - promptly got a refund on the app.

PI didn't inspire me too. Why can't you choose to postpone a reminder in hours?? If there is a way it is not worthwhile spending my time to figure that out. Palm organizer, not a third party app too, is a lot more intuitive. The PI UI is sooo cluttered.

The PPC froze only once on me in 3-4 months - that's bearable but in reinstalling apps after h-reset I lost my notes! PI doesn't pick them up - they are scattered all over the place. My desktop now has two PPCMyDocs!! There is no excuse for such shoddy products.

Everyone raving about some desktop soup-up/launcher, need to see SilverScreen on the Palm. I'm sure the number of dashboard type apps are an order of magnitude more on the "POS".

Going back to Palm OS after my 2215 goes on the block on eBay! Going for a Treo 600...bye bye PPC...wahoooo

Phronetix

12-04-2003, 06:46 PM

PPC versus Palm OS for the Mac user
Somebody on the last page mentioned that few PPC users use a Mac. I guess I'm the exception, but I'm barely hanging on to the PPC platform.

Setting up the PPC (iPaq 2215) using a third party app on the Mac (Powerbook G4, OS X Jaguar) was a dream. Funny how Mac seemed to work better with PPC than XP or Win98 did. :wink:

I began syncing using Missing Sync by Markspace. The syncing went smoothly, but the ipaq's performance was intolerably slow, even with no third party apps. I was actually unable to soft reset without the unit freezing. As a last resort I visited the PocketMac site and bought the recently updated version 3.0. (the trial has limited functionality that could test the ipaq's performance).

The ipaq now works perfectly. Except for a different bug. Every appointment synched over from iCal on the Mac now has a reminder appended to it. I now have to manually remove all reminders (arrgggh). It's the same story in PI, AF and the default calendar app. I'm in contact with PocketMac and they're looking into it, so we'll see.

I'm happy with PocketMac. They offer regular updates, and even include a free skinned Wisbar that simulates a Mac desktop, sort of. It's nice, and I don't have to stare at the Windows logo anymore, whatever that's worth.

I'm not that happy with the 2215. It's OK. I'd like more screen space, and I'm in a debate whether to buy and test drive the Tungsten T3 for a while, especially since I see how well my wife's old Clie N610 syncs on the Mac. The other option of course is to stick with the PPC platform and get the Toshiba e800. The Toshiba name and infamous lack of support is scaring me off.

Another issue that is quite significant with using PPC with a Mac is the fact that the Mac cannot deal with with the .exe files that most software downloads come in. I've needed to email the individual vendors to get the .cab files to install on my device, although a couple of vendors do have the .cab files on their download page already. This is a pain. The .cab extractor that comes with PocketMac has worked only once so far. Another technique is to use the Mac OS's stuff-it extactor (like a WinZip app) to unzip the exe file. This has worked with Textmaker for example.

I actually like both platforms. The PPC platform can do more, but I'm finding I may not need everything it can do. The Palm OS platform may sell me with its seamless syncing with my Mac should I go that way. I'm planning on deciding one way or the other in the next 3 weeks.

Unreal32

12-05-2003, 07:49 PM

The one thing I love most about PPC is the OS File system. Ebooks have .rtf or .lit extensions, Mp3s have .mp3 etc. HTML files have .htm. Copying files to and from is very painless. I have a text file I want to use on Palm...oops gotta convert it to .pdb(instead of sticking in a card or wifi copying it)

Actually, you're not 100% right. Using TIBR (free e-book reader) I can easily open TXT files. Other add-ins (many of them free) allow native JPG or HTML files to be opened, and the new Docs to Go version allows opening and editing of native Office files. Plus there's repligo, which is a HUGE improvement over Adobe Reader for PPC or Palm. (anything you can print, you can view... PPT's, docs, PDF's, spreadsheets, web sites, you name it.)

crairdin

12-05-2003, 11:07 PM

Unreal32

12-08-2003, 09:28 PM

The one thing I love most about PPC is the OS File system... Copying files to and from is very painless. I have a text file I want to use on Palm...oops gotta convert it to .pdb(instead of sticking in a card or wifi copying it)

Actually, you're not 100% right. Using TIBR (free e-book reader) I can easily open TXT files. ...

...As long as they're on a storage card. The part that's not right about volwrath's original message is that the Palm OS does have a file system on memory cards but not in main memory. As I said before, "files" on Palm OS memory cards are entirely different than files in main memory (where there aren't really "files").

The part that's right about volwrath's original message is that the Pocket PC file system is identical to your Windows desktop file system, and files in main memory are identical to files on storage cards. Any program that can work with files can work with files on storage cards. The same is NOT true of Palm OS because there's no such thing as "files" in main memory.

Craig

Actually, your posts seem to be heading in the direction of becoming less informed... there certainly ARE "files" in main memory. Anyone who has ever used Filez to manipulate them can tell you so. I can freely move these files back and forth to a memory card. If you're talking about *folders*, that's quite another thing. But files are files.

As for TIBR and TXT files, they also do not have to be on a storage card. Main memory has no problem holding or loading them with TIBR.

crairdin

12-08-2003, 09:52 PM

Let's not get into an argument about who's uninformed. Let's just stick to the facts.

The "files" in Palm's main memory are databases. You can't put an arbitrary file into main memory and have it be useful unless it's in the pdb database format.

The zTXT and Aportis Doc files read by TIBR are in pdb database format when they're in main memory. This is not necessarily the case when they're on a storage card. From the TIBR Web site:
Books in PalmDoc or zTXT format can be installed either to internal memory or to memory card. Books in plain text format can be installed to memory card only.
You can move databases from main memory to a storage card and I didn't say you couldn't. The point is that there is a "file system" on storage cards but not in main memory. Everything in main memory is in one common pool of pdb databases.

Because of all this, some apps can't or won't read their data when it's on a storage card. Some apps use different formats for their data when its on a card vs. main memory in order to try to overcome all the differences. This schizophrenic treatment of memory is typical of the Palm OS where everything seems to be a special case. This wreaks havoc on developers who have to handle umpteen ways of doing the simplest things.

Going back to the original comment by volwrath, he's right about the Pocket PC: There's no distinction between main memory and storage cards. The file system and file formats are identical. There's no conversion necessary when moving files. Files can be copied to/from the device in whatever format they're in. This is not true for the Palm, which is what he and I both pointed out in our posts.

Craig