What Is The Acceptable Price Range For Pocket PC Software [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

11-12-2003, 03:10 AM

Earlier this week, SoftMaker started selling their popular $49.95 TextMaker package at a rock bottom $11.11 each as part of a promotion. You can read more about it in the <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=182516">TextMaker thread</a>. They had originally intended to sell 1,111 copies but at this price, they blew through that in two hours and added another 1,111 to the mix. If they cut it off there, they will clear $24,686.42. Not bad for a day's work, eh? :D So this once again begs the question, what is the appropriate price for software. No one has ever questioned the capabilities of TextMaker. It is simply the mobile word processing program, regardless of the device or operating system. However, some have questioned paying nearly $50 for it. Obviously the $11.11 price is a special sale and is really too low for a program like this, at least in my opinion. So, where do you fall on this issue? What would you consider paying for full featured applications? I'm not talking about utilities, I mean apps like Pocket Informant, Pocket MindMap, Agenda Fusion, TextMaker or Pocket Artist. And yes, some of my ranges overlap, by design.

a_feigl

11-12-2003, 04:07 AM

The real item worth noting, is whether a ppc software application is more porfitable when it is highpriced with low volume of sales, or low priced with a higher volume of sales. Personally i think that ppc software should favour the lower price scheme, as a pda is a secondary means of computing and software produced for it shouldn't be the same price as desktop applications. Hexacto has recently dropped the price, on many of there games (and has been trying to find out where games best sell, through the many promotions they have had lately). For Hexacto, through this move of lowering its prices can see that higher profits can be ascertained with lower prices substaintiated by much higher turnover. What do you think.... Anyone.....

jmarkevich

11-12-2003, 04:14 AM

First of all, I applaud SoftMaker. This was a great thing to do. Even their sale prices at $35 are very good, for what you're getting. I also applaud Xen Games for their pricing.

There's just no happy middle ground though, why so few apps at $15? Things are too often priced above the implse buy level.

backpackerx

11-12-2003, 04:16 AM

Obviously some software is worth the asking price but with PPC software I find this to be rare. There are tons of good programs out there but they all seem to start at $19.99 or $24.99. It's hard to justify that money for a limited graphics/gameplay game on the PocketPC when most of the PS2 games I buy are in this price range (I rarely buy new releases).

The only thing that I can figure is the price is needed to support a developmental team on fewer sales that a computer program or console game would generate. The market tends to balance itself out naturally so maybe it's not that much, it just seems to be.

Prevost

11-12-2003, 04:28 AM

I think software pricing must go along with its funcionality and power. For example, I have never thought TextMaker is overpriced at $49.95, if we consider that it gives the power of a full word processing program. I'm sure many of it's advanced features are never used by many customers...just like it happens with MS Word. Consider also it goes way beyond PocketWord's limits.

FYI, there are CAD programs for PPC that cost MORE than some devices. If someone needs that, then the price will be right. For people that need not so much, there are less expensive programs with less features but that probably fit them fine anyway. It's just like the PocketWord vs TextMaker thing.

buckyg

11-12-2003, 04:38 AM

Thinkingmandavid

11-12-2003, 04:48 AM

I would never have bought textmaker at 49.99, but this deal was too good to pass up , so of course I bought it yesterday and downloaded today:) Now about that keyboard for my ppc 8)

sublime

11-12-2003, 04:48 AM

The question cannot be answerable in itself. It heavily relies on the financial status of the PPC owner. At the moment, I am a dirt poor college student, and consider $25 the maximum I would ever pay for the most super duper program ever ever ever. However, if I were working full time and had a steady income, my opinion would surely be different.

As a result, I think this question asks the limits of one's financial means, rather than the worth/utility of the software.

Janak Parekh

11-12-2003, 04:50 AM

I think software pricing must go along with its funcionality and power.
Agreed. If I found a tool that made me 100% more efficient, I'd be willing to pay hundreds of dollars for it, because I'd make it up in a fraction of the time. I guess my PDA falls in that category as a whole, but I wouldn't limit it to just hardware. :)

(For the record, I haven't found such a program on a PDA. Yet.)

--janak

Thinkingmandavid

11-12-2003, 05:11 AM

so then the question is relative.
some say the worht, the worth it has to different people so different opinons of the worth.
some say the worth in money, maybe it has to do with how much money you make now, or maybe th worth in how much it affects your life or how much you get out of the software, or you perceive yourself getting out of the software.

hopeful797

11-12-2003, 05:13 AM

simple--i wouldn't have purchased it when it was 50 or 35 or even once when 25 if you bought both together. but for 11 it was worth a chance. i think most ppc vendors could sell much more software if the price was below $20 because it then becomes more of an impulse buy for many people (though not dirt poor students which is why educational discounts should always be given).

tanalasta

11-12-2003, 05:15 AM

Well for all those business people with heaps of cash and tax deductions on programs it's all well and good but a lot of students/joe bloggs don't have $30+ to splurge on programs. I'd say that anything in the $10-$20 range would be acceptable and I'd positively hate to see programs hike up in price simply because developers can do so (take microsoft for instance). Anything cheaper than that would be awesome and anything more expensive would make me think twice as to whether i really needed the program. But would developers make as much money? That's for their marketing department to work out.

Nevertheless I would assume there are many other factors which influence what we would pay. But reward programs, lifetime/discounted future upgrades, positive reviews and specials definitely go a long way in persuading me to part with my credit card number and cash ;)

sublime

11-12-2003, 05:19 AM

SofaTater

11-12-2003, 05:19 AM

It really does depend on how much bang you get for your buck -- and that is going to be different for everyone. I always wanted TextMaker, but didn't *need* it enough to spend $50. I snapped it up at $11.11...

However, I've paid over $100 to Laridian for Bible software -- having three translations of the Bible and several reference works all on my PPC is worth that much money to me...

JonMisurda

11-12-2003, 05:40 AM

I fear that if we brush this off with the excuse of relativity, we will not get anywhere. So here's my final stance:

For a fully functionaly program, I would pay as much as my budget could suffer. I place high value on utility, and would pay (relatively) high prices for it.

As much as I dislike Economics, it provides some names and "insights" on this exact problem, and since TextMaker is pretty much a complete monopoly on its market, we can talk about it in a much simpler manner than say, a Bubblets clone.

First of all, saying its all relative is talking about Perfect Price Discrimination, in other words asking someone what they would pay for something, and then selling it to them for that price. This obviously won't work in reality.

So thus the goal becomes to figure out at what point to draw the price line so that you get as many people buying as possible while still making a profit over the amount expended on making it. The problem here is that this isn't a number that you can calculate. The best thing to do is exactly what this poll is doing, ask! We see here that the majority of people would be willing to spend around $30 for it. So what happened when it dropped to $11.11? That was so much below the value that I personally gave it that I couldn't not buy it. And buy it I did.

This is why some programs will never be profitable. With the availability of substitute goods (especially in the games area) it is not possible to charge as much as might even be necessary to recoup development costs. Economics then says thats its better not to make it at all. But thankfully we have free tools and freeware to offset this problem.

Ok, enough of that, my apologies to those much more well versed in economics than I for any mistakes I have made.

Jon

sublime

11-12-2003, 05:55 AM

Thanks a lot for that response. I have no education in economics whatsoever, and that was very accessible to the layman.

And so true it is: I never used Textmaker before; only saw a few screenshots of it...but I couldn't help but buy it. This was the first time I was peer pressured in very many years :oops:

kiwi

11-12-2003, 05:58 AM

It really does depend on how much bang you get for your buck -- and that is going to be different for everyone. I always wanted TextMaker, but didn't *need* it enough to spend $50. I snapped it up at $11.11...

wow! what a deal! I just purchased a copy myself. I am in the same boat, that I dont NEED it, but I always found pocket word lacking. For $US11 its a good price. Good on softmaker.

:D

rapidnet_rick

11-12-2003, 06:17 AM

I can name a few programs that in my opinion are expensive for a PocketPC...

TextMaker $49.95
Mnotes(Cadneza) from commontme.com $75.00 + Annual Renewal

I bought them both, and use them all the time! However, I have a hard time justifying even $20.00 for a game.... Case in point,

Atomic Tanks

$20.00 for that game seems like too much to me, perhaps $10.00. Some of the prices for software are too expensive....

The Fonix Voice Suite is another, $59.00(Package pricing) for all three....
MS Voice Command $40...too much.....

I'm sure everyone can add to the list...

BTW, I am niether rich, nor does my company buy this stuff.....I buy it myself, since I am just a grunt network engineer, not management....

Brad Adrian

11-12-2003, 06:25 AM

If I found a tool that made me 100% more efficient, I'd be willing to pay hundreds of dollars for it...(For the record, I haven't found such a program on a PDA. Yet.)

That's simple; it's any e-mail client that lets you put my addy in your killfile!

Shadowcat

11-12-2003, 07:08 AM

It really does depend on how much bang you get for your buck -- and that is going to be different for everyone. I always wanted TextMaker, but didn't *need* it enough to spend $50. I snapped it up at $11.11...

I was in the same boat. In fact not only did I not need it enough, I didn't need TextMaker at all or at least not right now. However, I might someday need it and the price is so good. You can call it an implse buy as many are saying. I also wanted to support SoftMaker because their software is really top-notch. However I could never justify $50 simply because I don't really need the program.

Paula

11-12-2003, 07:27 AM

I don't know much about this software but from what I've read it sounds great. Is it worth buying the PC version as well? Is it needed?

Cheers
Paula

Jon Westfall

11-12-2003, 07:39 AM

What makes PPC software great is that it is, normally, a lot cheaper than regular software. I think if you raise the price too high, the idea of lower-cost-of-ownership with a PDA vs. lugging a laptop around really starts to become a bigger myth than it already is.

Spenser

11-12-2003, 07:53 AM

Earlier this week, SoftMaker started selling their popular $49.95 TextMaker package at a rock bottom $11.11 each as part of a promotion.

You should know, why SoftMaker made this move yesterday. Here in Germany the "Karneval" starts on November 11th at 11:11. People get crazy about it. In my opinion it is Very clever to start such a promotion at that time. But I am astonished, that they did the same in English speaking countries. Anyhow: it's a great application and they made a lot of money on one day. I hope others will do the same.
Jochen

Gerard

11-12-2003, 07:59 AM

When I first got a PPC, back in the late spring of 2000, there were almost no titles for the device. Sure, there were the standard packaged demos one could upgrade for some cash, but really, why would anyone want to buy ZioGolf when the cost was so ridiculously high??? I did buy a license for D1's 'ScreenSnap', and at $10 it didn't seem all that bad. Then a month later a freeware standalone capture program came out which worked better, and shortly after GigaBar was released, offering screen captures as just tne of the many free tools within it. The value of ScreenSnap, for me, dropped from $10 to zero in weeks. I uninstalled it after a brief defiant spell where I thought it simply must offer more, because I'd paid for it...

A little after that I bought Pocket Artist, for $50. There really wasn't a lot else available at the time, and I really wanted to be able to do graphical work on the Casio. It rocked, and still does after over 3 years. Updates have kept coming, new tools added all the time, and by next year there'll be GIF authoring and possibly even animated GIF tools (though Jason of Conduits won't swear to it). Was it worth $50? Every penny. More. I've given over a lot of hours to testing betas for Conduits since, spent a lot of time offering my observations on bugs and suggestions for features (I really pushed for an always-there Undo button, for one). In terms of my time, I have paid hundreds of dollars for Pocket Artist, and I am not the least sorry. I'll keep on offering whatever little help I might so that this toolkit will continue growing in wonderful ways. I did a lot of testing for Idruna's Photogenics as well, but that project seems abandoned, so I'm relieved not to have paid a dime for it, just time. Too buggy still and prone to crashing, though with some unique and great features.

Where's the happy middle ground? There isn't any. As has been said a few times already in this discussion, a software program is worth what the relevant customers will pay for it. Games are not worth any money to me. If something free comes along, great, I might waste a bit of time with it. Boredom kicks in pretty fast though, and soon enough the game is uninstalled and forgotten. Very few exceptions, and frankly, none of the small handful of games I keep cost anything; freeware game developers seem often to have a better knack for finding what's fun.

TextMaker allows one to edit novels, heck, to author them. With TextMaker you can prepare copy for almost any job involving the written word. That kind of power is worth $50 to a writer, and probably a lot more. For a student, maybe it's possible to get by with Pocket Word, maybe not. Depends on how much you want to access a PC. I don't want to do any document editing on a PC, so TextMaker is a perfect tool for me.

The hard part is the seller's job, deciding how to sell enough copies within a limited timeframe, before competition or market boredom makes the software irrelevant. With an active development team like SoftMaker, there's not a lot of difficulty in maintaining the value, as they keep refining and embellishing the product. The value remains. With something less versatile, and with little room for improvement, there's not a lot of point in pricing it so high. Sales will suffer, and then people just forget about the product, even if you lower the price after a long while. Understanding your market is critical.

Jonathan1

11-12-2003, 08:42 AM

See here's the problem as I see it. The software on the Pocket PC can be every bit as flexible, versatile, and robust as a desktop product but other then the diehard fans that have given up their laptops and desktops the PPC represents a supplement to the laptop/desktop not a replacement. This makes justifying the purchase of such an app difficult, at best, if I'm not going to sit down in front of my PPC and do really work on it. Anything above 10-25 dollars represents a massive investment in a piece of software. Something you would be using day in day out. IMHO I can not and will not pay anything more then $30 for even a full blow PC app. On such things as OS's, and security software that keeps your PC functioning or from being trashed I would consider paying above that $30 limit. But those are the only exceptions at least for me.

Lets take Textmaker for an example. A fantastic product. But insanely over priced. I realize that its their product and they can do and price it as they please but they are narrowing their market of potential buyers by pricing it so high. I'm of the mind that Softmaker believes that they can charge a high price for it because MS can get away with this on the desktop and because there are no other alternatives other then Textmaker for the PPC when it comes to MS Office apps. This kind of thinking seriously pisses me off. I know they put their blood, sweat and life into this product and deserve a good return on investment but I would point to www.pocketinformant.com Do they not work their butts off on this app as well and IMHO its as every bit as robust as Textmaker yet they are charging $25 bucks for their app.

Finally I would suggest that you catch more flies with honey then with vinegar. Pricing an app so high will automatically make people turn away and say screw that. If Softmaker priced it at $25 I'm willing to be they would just as much if not more then what they are pulling in now.

Also I would like to point out that for those of you that are content to toss out $50 at the drop of the hat you are enablers to this type of behavior, rewarding these companies for overpricing their apps. Maybe someone will see this and decide that if they can get away with $50 lets try $75 or $100 next time. In the end it's the consumer that ultimately set the price of these apps. If there wasn't at least a few people buying these high priced apps you would see them drop in price in short order. I guess I'm just not rich enough to throw down $50 at the drop of the hat. :roll:

Skoobouy

11-12-2003, 08:44 AM

I paid the full $50 price tag for TextMaker last year. The one feature that sold me? The ability to use keyboard shortcuts for quick formatting while taking class notes. Do I use the other features? YES! And I believe it was absolutely worth the money.

I only hope Softmaker doesn't flood the market--I want them to sell Textmaker for a long, long time, and the 2,222 + pre-Nov. 11 orders are that many fewer prospective buyers in the future. But, they know best. This bonanza might be enough to let at least one of their employees have a nice vacation.

PR.

11-12-2003, 10:50 AM

$50 wasn't overpriced for Textmaker, when you consider you get both the desktop and PPC version. I payed $36 for my copy of it on the desktop and pocket pc, great thing was they offer you the choice of paying by dollars or euros so being a brit I could pick the most favourable currency and spend the least. At $11 thats only £6.80. :D

The PocketTV Team

11-12-2003, 11:28 AM

I think the answer to your polling question depend if the application is for commercial use or personal use, unfortunately you did not make this distinction.

Clearly people don't want to pay much for software they use for fun or entertainment or other personal use. Most people will hunt for free software or will hardly pay more than $10.

But on the other hand, companies don't have problem paying significant higher prices for commercial use. $50 or more is not considered expensive for a commercial software.

This is why we have decided that PocketTV Classic should be free (not just cheap), while we charge about $50 for our commercial version.

We think it's a good way to do business. We probably do better this way than if we were selling PocketTV for $10 across the board.

You also need to remember that the developer only gets a fraction of the price you pay, especially if you purchase at Handango (which takes fees of up to 40%). So be nice with developers and when you purchase mobile software, if you have a choice, use the software sites that charge lower fees and give more to the developers (e.g. PocketGear.com and Snartphone.NET). You'll pay the same, and the developer will get more.

Ed Hansberry

11-12-2003, 01:15 PM

This is some great discussion. Many of these thought ran through my mind as I tried to come up with the post and many I hadn't thought of. Obviously a flat two dimensional poll can only capture so much information. It is great to see this thread branch off with so many ideas and theories. :D

jmarkevich

11-12-2003, 01:17 PM

I paid the full $50 price tag for TextMaker last year. The one feature that sold me? The ability to use keyboard shortcuts for quick formatting while taking class notes. Do I use the other features? YES! And I believe it was absolutely worth the money.

http://www.lagorio.net/pocketpc/wordcommands/ WordCommands is free. Why did you pay $50 now?

I find myself agreeing with the other Jonathan (fairly often :D )... think of PocketInformant... they *raised* the price because people were complaining that they should be charging more. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THESE PEOPLE?!? Yes, PI is amazing, and worth every penny, but do we have money to burn, here? Have people forgotten the laws of economics - especially with a short-lived product like software? And at economically lean times?

How long did it take SoftMaker to make that kinda money on TM? Have they saturated the market yet? Well how about a price reduction in their own interests? How about a TM lite?

chrisleeuk

11-12-2003, 01:39 PM

Many software products and indeed a lot of technology products in general are sold this way.

The first people who buy a new Car or the latest DVD recorder or a newly released game with always pay a premium price.
The manufacturer has to make sure they get back the development money invested.

When buying stuff we all base our purchase on how much we feel we need a product based against the amount the financial cost will hurt us.

As the number of purchases begins to fall away it is important for the manufacturer to decide how much they can justifiably lower the price to shift more units of the product.

Softmaker will no doubt have looked that figures before making the decision.

I notice the old argument that Pocket PC software should cost less because it is secondary computing. I understand this argument but as a Pocket PC developer myself I know it takes just as much time and often longer to produce a product that will run on every PDA than a single PC version.

At the end of the day you can't sell something that people feel they can't afford or are just not willing to pay. So if people do consider that they should pay less for Pocket PC software then the price will be forced naturally in the direction of that expectation.

I am surprised that Softmaker went so low, maybe they needed to raise capital quickly and I know that they have managed that!

11-12-2003, 01:59 PM

I am surprised that Softmaker went so low, maybe they needed to raise capital quickly and I know that they have managed that!
I was surprised they went so low as well. This is obviously well below the value of this program. Still it fitted well with the date and hopefully they have already sold enough copies at the regular price to offset the development costs.

Hopefully all these new customers are not going to be flooding Softmaker's technical support guys with problems getting the program to start up. A new update was released yesterday that I hoped would solve this but doesn't seem to have done so.

Back to the thread topic, I price I will pay for software depends 100% on how it meets my particular needs. I seem to remember I paid about $35.00 for Textmaker which I considered a fair price. Textmaker does pretty much everything on my PPC that Word does on my laptop. Goodluck trying to buy Word for $35.00. PI is also well priced, the great PPC bargain of all time for all this program does for me.

To me, the most overpriced apps are games. I appreciate that many many hours of work go into the high quality ones, but for me no thanks. Now for someone into serious gaming, paying $30.00 for a PPC game might be money well spent.

Jimmy Dodd

11-12-2003, 03:05 PM

I too had looked at TextMaker earlier and decided to pass on it. At $35 (or whatever it was at the time) I felt that it was too much for the amount of use I would get out of it. For someone who spends a lot of time in a word processor I can understand its value. For me, RTF (I use WordPad on the desktop a lot so I can easily sync with Pocket Word) is enough most of the time. However, at $11.11 I jumped at the chance to pick up a copy. I probably still won't use it that much - but at $11.11 it is below my psychological threshhold for requiring justification. So SoftMaker made at least $11.11 on their promotion from someone who otherwise wouldn't have bought the product.

As a developer I tend to be rather cheap when it comes to software for the PPC anyway. I have a tendancy to look at a utlity app and say "$12.95 for that? I could write that in a weekend." (Of course I rarely get around to writing it and thus come to realize I didn't really need it anyway.) I guess my impulse purchases are prevented by professional arrogance. :roll:

Ken Mattern

11-12-2003, 03:10 PM

Many years ago, back in the floppy disk distribution days, the days when you actually received bound paper manuals, Computer Associates gave away absolutely free one million copies of Simply Money. I ordered my free copy and paid the nominal $7.95 shipping and handling fee. I never used the software. They were so successful that they gave away a second million copies.

You do the math.

The software originally sold for something like $79.99.

Which is the more profitable path? Sell a few at $79.99 or give away two million copies and rake in a profit of say $2.00 each.

I sell my simple PPC software for $2.75. I'm not getting rich, but I do get a steady beer income.

I have always believed in selling many for little rather than few for much. It works for me.

dma1965

11-12-2003, 04:39 PM

My real issue here is the fact that I have to buy a third party application to get the functionality of a desktop Microsoft product because the built in application is so lame, yet is touted as being the pocket version of the desktop application. I brought this up at the user group tour and one of the responses from the Microsoft team was, in essence, that the lack of features in Microsoft application provided an opportunity for third party developers. I responded by telling them that if they choose to view it this way, why force me to live with a nearly worthless application in ROM. Why can't they make a free installer for it, for those that are happy with the basic (lame) functionality of the Microsoft application, and give me the extra ROM space in the iPaq Filestore, so I can then use the extra space to install whatever I want. I have to install about 15 megs of applications from the get go just to get basic functionality in my device before I find it usable. When I first got an iPaq, 3 years ago, I was cursing up and down at how horrible it was. I could not believe that I could not open multiple windows in IE, close applications with the x, sync certain types of formatting in Word and Excel. Over time, I found that I can do most of this with third party software, but at the expense of hundreds of dollars in extra software purchases, and a loss of RAM, which, to me, is the real expense, because you NEED the RAM to keep your device running smoothly. I know this is a rant, but I just shake my head at a company who has BILLIONS of surplus money in the bank, who do not even bother to address major issues for YEARS, and sometimes never. :evil:

Thinkingmandavid

11-12-2003, 04:44 PM

WE all have issues with MS. I agree it is something that should have been included but with all of the ppc community complaining MS still hasnt done anything to change the bad things to good things. :roll:
I bought textmaker two days ago for 11.11... I feel it is reasonable and honestly would never have bought it for 49.9, to me that is ridiculous price. :evil:
I have pocket plus and that is reasonably priced, but then again it goes back to MS should already be including these feature in them.

I know the developers only get so much, but it doesnt change the fact of what should already be included and what in the mind or perception of the buyer what is 'worth' the price being asked.
PI raised the price :?: Bad PI :bangin:

mmidgley

11-12-2003, 04:46 PM

I bought www.inesoft.com 's Cash Organizer for $50. It was worth it to me. Nothing else did what it could for me (even true now as far as I'm concerned). They have since dropped the price. I didn't want to miss getting TextMaker at the low price and end up doing the $50 thing again.

I do *many* things with my iPAQ 5555, but PocketWord definitely has the most limited use. I have maybe 4 pocket word documents on the device. Having just moments ago bought TextMaker for $11, I forsee many more word documents will be on my device soon... :)

m.

11-12-2003, 05:24 PM

My real issue here is the fact that I have to buy a third party application to get the functionality of a desktop Microsoft product because the built in application is so lame, yet is touted as being the pocket version of the desktop application.
I was going to post a response totally disagreeing with you, but on second thoughts I like some of your ideas.

I do disagree that a PPC should have desktop functionality out of the box. Heck, if you buy a Windows desktop, it doesn't have any MS Office applications out of the box, unless you have paid extra to get them. It would be a waste to spec Office on every PC because for a lot of people WordPad - or whatever the heck comes with Windows - is just fine. Why be forced to pay for something you don't need. I believe that is also true for Pocket PC.

A couple of points you make a quite correct I think. First, MS does tend to give the impression in their marketing (the OEMs do as well) that the built in apps are closer to the desktop ones than they really are. This is what has raised a lot of people's expectations, then pissed them off when it turns out not to be true. Refering to the built-in apps as Pocket WordPad, Pocket Spreadsheet and Pocket Browser for instance would be more realistic. Of course being honest would not look so good as Palm marketing where they claim Office integration via the bundled Docs to Go. I can see why MS feel they have to use this rather deceptive marketing, even if I don't like it.

The other point I agree with you is that it would be nice to get these apps out of our RAM so we can use this storage for more useful things. I would remove Pocket Word and MS Reader right now if I could. Pocket Excel would be close behind when Softmaker finish their spreadsheet.

On the whole, I like the concept that MS supply just a good stable OS and let me customize my PPC with the third party software I choose, not what MS forces me to have.

Thinkingmandavid

11-12-2003, 05:41 PM

Jimmy Dodd

11-12-2003, 05:46 PM

It would be a waste to spec Office on every PC because for a lot of people WordPad - or whatever the heck comes with Windows - is just fine.

In fact, Wordpad and Pocket Word have pretty much the same feature set and work well together. I think Pocket Word should have been named Pocket WordPad.

11-12-2003, 05:54 PM

Did I hear someboy say for MS to make the ppc software more stable 8O
HAHAHA :lol: what are the chances?

dma1965 wrote do disagree that a PPC should have desktop functionality out of the box. Heck, if you buy a Windows desktop, it doesn't have any MS Office applications out of the box, unless you have paid extra to get them
I disagree because MS should automatically assume you have and will be using it between the two devices. IF they are going to use that word and excel are on their as a selling point, then they should beef it up knowing that capabilities of the desktop version. It is a given that MS products are so widely in use, so MS shouldnt need people to state it, they should use common sense in that area.

I dont mind customizing my ppc to fit my needs, but it does bug me there has to be a textmaker to meet my word processing needs. At 49.99 I would never buy it, at the 11.11 I did because to me it is worth that.
I shouldnt need pocket plus to have alarms, close out windows, show battery life, and storage space.

IF I expect for it to be as the desktop version, then I can expect many patches and upgrades.
I'm not quite sure what you disagree with. Are you saying that all PCs have MS Office installed? That MS should assume that everyone has Word available? I don't think either of these is the case.

For many people, the built-in Pocket Word is perfectly ok. Before I had Textmaker I used it a lot, I just sent my work to my laptop for formatting, spellchecking (essential for me :lol:) and other good stuff. To get a better wordprocessor was worth $35.00 for me because I had a need. Your need was obviously not so pressing.

The deal with the X and closing programs, yes you have a point there. I use Battery Pack but the things it includes, taskbar, program bar, battery and memory info should be part of the OS.

Like I said in the earlier post, I believe that the operating system is just that. It should provide basic functions (just like Windows itself) and the apps should be seperate.

Heck, there's nothing to stop MS from producing a real Pocket Office as a stand alone product and giving the Textmaker guys some competition in that area.

11-12-2003, 05:55 PM

Did I hear someboy say for MS to make the ppc software more stable 8O
HAHAHA :lol:
TMD, are you hearing voices again? Did you take your meds? I looked at both posts between your two but i dont see anything about stability. JA

11-12-2003, 06:19 PM

I love to buy software for my PPC, but my price limit is around $12, max. $15. A program should be really good to make me pay more. I´m sure that there is a lot of people like me, and that developers can sell really more copies and earn a lot more money selling their products for less. I think that the textmaker example shows everyone a lesson.

ux4484

11-12-2003, 06:50 PM

For the record, I haven't found such a program on a PDA. Yet.

--janak

you and me both!

Back OT:

I think the sale price maybe to expose users to the new features coming out in Softmaker's PPC/desktop Office Suite coming out late this year/early next year which (according to their site) will offer Excel compatibility and Database/project management tools.

Just a couple days ago the "Office Anywhere" suite release said 2004, as of today, it says 2003....no word if the Textmaker version will have any new features other than the online collaboration that Office Anywhere touts.

Ed Hansberry

11-12-2003, 06:54 PM

WE all have issues with MS. I agree it is something that should have been included but with all of the ppc community complaining MS still hasnt done anything to change the bad things to good things. :roll:
Why is MS obligated to provide you with a high quality piece of software on a $200-400 device (office) yet we expect that Office is a separate purchase on far more expensive desktop/laptop/tablet devices? IN a sense, you get more with a Pocket PC now than a bare copy of Windows in this regard. WIth Windows, you get Word Pad. With Pocket PC you get Pocket Word (Pocket Wordpad, whatever you want to call it) and Pocket Excel.

SoftMaker

11-12-2003, 07:16 PM

11-12-2003, 07:25 PM

Gerard

11-12-2003, 07:27 PM

Yeah, I've been seeing these rants about Pocket Word and Pocket Excel being inadequate for years. The complaints are accurate; both are rather limited in scope, and frustrating to cope with when transferring docs from a PC and losing lots of formatting. The Notes application is even worse, as it saves files in an obscure, proprietary format, forcing many a new user to experience the "how can I get a recording out of a Note file?' problem. Embedded WAV files are the default recording method, and though all it takes is to tell a user to record only in list view, Microsoft steadfastly refuses to make this information available. One line of text in a ReadMe file - put it in ROM for crying out loud! And Pocket IE has been infuriatingly limited until recently. From what I hear, PPC/WM2003 offers a lot better tools, including some Java, but still there's that lack of multiple windows, page saving, whatever else a browser should have...

However, there are a handful of wonderful Notepad clones, from Tillanosoft, PHM, and others. There's also GigaPad, a component of GigaBar which is like NotePad after getting pumped up to Ahnoldian proportions. And for document editing/authoring there's TextMaker, which even at $49.95 is a heck of a deal compared to Microsoft Word. Even tossing in the PC version, raising the total to $70 at regular price, it's a steal if you need it.

MultiIE is not very expensive, and turns Pocket IE into just about everything a browser should be. Still lacks a few little things, but there are workarounds for most.

Pocket Excel is free, and copes with every spreadsheet need I have (not many). Add in PrintPocketCE and one has the ability to print spreadsheets and invoices and whatever, for far, far less than the cost of the PC-based version, which does not come with desktop Windows so far as I know. If you want more, SoftMaker has something great coming along, and SpreadCE has been available for over 2 years for a reasonable fee.

WMP is too limited? Heck, I can stream live TV from a hundred stations around the world if I have a fat enough connection! ppcvidz.com offers thousands of streaming links which work in WMP, all of them video and audio. Then there are the thousands of streaming audio channels which, though hard to find at times, make for very decent listening. Add GSPlayer to your machine for a few hundred KB and zero dollars and you have even better streaming, local, and playlisting utilities. The personal Pocket TV editions offer video playback in MPG, and the list goes on and on. Inbox too funky, too limiting? Get nPOP and never pay a dime for just about all the email efficiency and functionality one could want.

So really, I don't see the PPC OS as being fundamentally flawed in terms of Microsoft applications out-of-the-box. Where I see it as being flawed is in stability. But there are enough reports that WM2003 is more stable that I sort of believe it, and from the early notes on WM2004, it seems Microsoft's team is really getting their act together on some of the long-standing issues, like resolution, rotation, and filesystem slowness/bugginess. I don't see any of this as being terribly relevant to the 'how much should software cost?' question.

Jimmy Dodd

11-12-2003, 07:29 PM

SoftMaker

11-12-2003, 07:34 PM

daS

11-12-2003, 08:13 PM

The limit varies with me based on the software's value to me. TextMaker is a great case in point. Awesome software, and $49.95 isn't really that bad of a price for what it does. I've always *wanted* it, but I didn't *need* it bad enough to pay that price. I don't do a lot of word processing on my PPC, if I did, I would have been more inclined to pay the higher price.

I think you made the point perfectly! There is no single price range that's right for all PPC software. TextMaker is a strange one. It obviously required a huge amount of work to develop and therefore, the company needs to get a return on that investment. While the lower price will create higher volume, it will also require more expense for support. That means that they probably need to sell at least 10 times the volume to get the same amount of profit. On the other hand, like you I had a hard time justifying the $50 price given the limited amount of editing I do on the Pocket PC. Perhaps I'll change my mind if I start using an iPAQ 4350.

PetiteFlower

11-12-2003, 08:35 PM

Ok I didn't read most of the thread thus far :) But for me it's as much about "have it" as it is about "worth it" (the money, that is). I think Listpro is worth what they're asking for it, but I don't have that to spend right now, so I found a free alternative!

Textmaker I'm sure is worth it but I don't have a need for it, so I wouldn't buy it. I don't think they're wrong for charging what they do though. BUT, it will mean people will really sit and think about whether they REALLY need it before they spend that kind of money :)

Games are a different story; I would never pay more then $10 for a PPC game, I just couldn't justify the expense to myself! I'll spend more then that on computer and PS2 games, but not more then $40, and if I buy 3 video games in a year, that's a LOT! Plus you get a lot more/better stuff in a game for those systems, can be played on a full sized screen, better graphics/sound/story, generally provide more enjoyment hours for the dollar :)

But even if it was a really great app, I couldn't see spending more then $20 or so for a PPC program, I can't imagine that there would be something valuable enough for me to justify the spending.

Andrew

11-12-2003, 10:28 PM

After having read through the thread, one thing I havent saw many people mention (if at all) is the question of demos. This was something that I mentioned in a similar thread a while back.
I really do think that if a developer would like me to pay x amount for their app, they really do need to offer a demo. This is especially true for the more expensive apps, if a company is asking 50 USD from me, but doesnt provide a demo for me to decide if its worth it, then its very unlikely I would take the plunge and buy it. Im much more likely to buy something if I have the chance to play with a demo first.
Concerning the actual pricing of the apps themselves, as a lot of you have said, this is a kind of difficult situation, especially as the 30USD that seems reasonable for some of you, is still quite high for a lot of people outside the 'western' countries. Here paying 10 USD is a more reasonable price, but for some of the 'bigger' apps, this doesnt allow the developers to make much back.
I think at the end of the day, the developers need to take a good look at the market theyre aiming for, if its a game for example, I believe that they shouldnt aim above 10USD, as after a while youll finish it, get bored with it, then what? Uninstall it most likely.
Again with apps the target audience should be taken into account, something like wisbar for example would be a good sale for 5-10, but to ask 20 may be pushing it too far.
All I can say is if the price is reasonable, and you have a good app, people will buy your product, just dont get to greedy, otherwise theyll probably end up going to the 'less-scrupulous' sites instead.
I think my personal limit for an app would be about 20, maybe 25 if it was really something that would enhance my productivity, or provide me with something I couldnt do without.
Sorry for the rant guys, Ill get off the soap box now... :oops:

ux4484

11-12-2003, 10:50 PM

seeing that $15-25 is thus far the #1 choice, I think that a lot of folks agree with you Andrew....I know I do.

Gerard

11-12-2003, 11:46 PM

Here's a thought. Let's say there's this program which offers a large number of functions, and is available at all times except when another program has gone fullscreen. Here's the feature set, or at least the most obvious tools one might use in the course of a day:

~ launches any program or settings applet, up to a maximum of around 60 or 70, depending on user preferences

~ handles all common document and clipboard functions with a variety of easily mastered custom stylus taps and gestures, including Control-lock, Shift-lock, Copy, Cut, Paste, and Select All

~ can close all open apps, all background apps, or just the foreground with a tap, including all programs, except where the program is hard coded to respect only its own internal Close function

~ acts as Enter function, swapping this with Close in context-sensitive manner

~ captures screen either instantly on tap or after a 4 second delay

~ displays system time and date, memory load status and one storage card's status in an always-on bar graph

~ displays battery status as bar at all times

~ offers always-on view of between 7 and 9 running program icons, depending on user options otherwise selected, with one-tap switching between open programs

~ incorporates the best Notepad yet made for the Pocket PC, offering customizable toolbar, editing of most plaintext-based file types, full keyboard shortcut integration of all common editing functions, and has a Run command for previewing HTML and other resulting documents

~ has fullscreen, screen off, volume adjust, disconnect, and other commonly used tools integrated, including one-tap Next Appointment function

There's more, but that's GigaBar in a nutshell. It's free. Always has been. Many have complained, including myself though I have given many hours to beta testing for Gene's products. What's all that worth, to the user who wants it? The program takes no space at all, nothing that isn't wasted almost completely by the PPC OS - 26x240 pixels along the top of the screen. In terms of system load, it's a bit large at around 500KB, but the common myth that GigaBar slows the device is just that; a myth. It no more affects device speed and stability than does opening Notes, they both require under half a MB to run.

So, what's GigaBar worth? I use it constantly, just as users of WisBar and IcBar use those. It's always there, always being used, though often I forget about it completely. When I hard reset for some maintenance or testing reason (or just another stupid iPAQ reason), I am always a bit shocked not to find the many tools I need just to navigate around the device as I get it set up. (Of course, if all I am doing is a quick restore from a Pocket Backup this is irrelevant, as I have GigaBar and everything else up and running in about 3 minutes.)

I'd say it's a $20 software. Anyone agree? Minimum, I mean. If Gene charged $25 for it, it would be worth it. I use it a lot more than Dashboard, which costs $13, and I use Dashboard a whole lot. Thoughts?

Jonathan1

11-13-2003, 12:01 AM

Why is MS obligated to provide you with a high quality piece of software on a $200-400 device (office) yet we expect that Office is a separate purchase on far more expensive desktop/laptop/tablet devices? IN a sense, you get more with a Pocket PC now than a bare copy of Windows in this regard. WIth Windows, you get Word Pad. With Pocket PC you get Pocket Word (Pocket Wordpad, whatever you want to call it) and Pocket Excel.

OK Lets compare Windows 2K and XP. Lets look at their file browsers and version of Internet Explorer. Kicks the crap out of what the Pocket PC has. So in that regard it gives you more bang for the buck then what the Pocket PC gives you. It works both ways.

I don’t think anyone is expecting quality of the likes found in Textmaker but there is some implied functionally expected in a name like Pocket Word and Pocket Excel. (i.e. Its going to work with, no points for guessing, Word and Excel.) I would point you to the handheld PC variants of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and even Access, which were more robust then what the Pocket PC currently gives us. They didn’t do everything that that desktop did but they did enough to get the job done. Can the same be said of PWord and PExcel? Is it really asking too much for at least a functional piece of software to ship with the Pocket PC? I mean if the file explorer for the Pocket PC shipped with Windows XP everyone would be up in arms yet we take what MS gives us in the PPC with a *shrug* and a "there's always third party". I'm sorry but IMHO that's a copout. If nothing else stop calling it Word and Excel. Maybe Wordpad and Spreadsheets. Something that in no uncertain terms shows that this isn’t intended as a Word Excel supplement.
Heck. If they aren't going to provide robust apps then at least sell them as a wanna be CE Plus Pack. I’m of the opinion that there should be a collaboration between the Pocket PC team and the MS office team. Have them go to the office team asking for a version of Word, Excel, PowerPoint that fits in Xmb of RAM. Considering that they just finished Office 2003 would it really be out of the realm of possibilities?

daS

11-13-2003, 12:34 AM

I would point you to the handheld PC variants of Word, Excel, PowerPoint, and even Access, which were more robust then what the Pocket PC currently gives us. They didn’t do everything that that desktop did but they did enough to get the job done. Can the same be said of PWord and PExcel?
That's not true. The last versions of the Handheld PC (such as the Jornada 720/728) had the same problems with Pocket Word and had an even more limited version of Pocket Excel than the Pocket PC has. Of course it did include a (very limited) version of Access and PowerPoint, but at least these didn't corrupt your desktop files if you made changes on the handheld.

If nothing else stop calling it Word and Excel. Maybe Wordpad and Spreadsheets.
I agree with you on that point. But I do think that Microsoft is in a bit of a Catch 22: Us users want full featured applications (or at least ones that don't harm our desktop data) but if Microsoft continues to gain market share on Palm, I can see another law suit coming based on bundling applications with the Windows Mobile OS. I'm not sure I know what the right answer is on this one. :roll:

garrans

11-13-2003, 08:01 AM

My 2c

For business purposes, the coy I work for pays for my laptop and all required software.... its a business expense - and is priced as such.

The company won't pay, and I can't deduct software costs for my PPC as it is a home unit.... Not required for business.

So you have to target the home market for PPC software costs.... eg. Quicken, Money, Lanscape Architect s/w etc. They are selling (rebates inclusive inthe $30 - $40 range.

jlp

11-13-2003, 09:09 AM

I think that the $11.11 TextMaker special offer teaches us is:
it's a heck of a good program
that's worth every cent of the regular $49.95 price for those who really need it
is priced much too high at $49.95 for people needing just or little more than seamless round tripping
2,222 people (probably much more since not everybody interested was aware of that deal) tell that there's a need for a lite version of a powerful app

I'm sure it can be said exactly the same about Conduit's Pocket Artist: it's highly professional, high priced (also $50) and I'm sure if they would sell the former version 1.x (renamed PocketArtist LE or SE (Light/Special Edition)) and price it at $15-20 they would sell a lot more.

Me think they're afraid it would eat on their version 2.0 sales.

But I'm sure lot's of people would like to do some light image retouching on their PPC but don't want to pay the hefty $50 asked for the full featured version.

Exactly the same as for TextMaker.

What this polls tells us too is that almost 2 out of 3 PPC user will pay no more than $15-20 (est. weighted average) for a PPC program.

Thinkingmandavid

11-13-2003, 02:51 PM

Gerard makes a good point and approached it well. I have never used that program but if I were to look at its worth, I would say that while I was reading it I thought it was worth around 15 maybe, no more.

Andrew wrote
After having read through the thread, one thing I havent saw many people mention (if at all) is the question of demos
I agree with you. Demos are a big key to getting sales. I was at Handango earlier in the week looking at project management software but there was not demo so I said forget it. I dont buy what I cant test first. I am thinking I could be wasting my money and I dont like that idea at all since I dont have a lot of it.

Jonathan1 wrote
I’m of the opinion that there should be a collaboration between the Pocket PC team and the MS office team. Have them go to the office team asking for a version of Word, Excel, PowerPoint that fits in Xmb of RAM. Considering that they just finished Office 2003 would it really be out of the realm of possibilities?

I agree with the necessity of collaboration, isnt it microsoft that has a commercial about collaboration to begin with :?: It is bull that they cant get more out of 'pocket word' and 'pocket excel' for the ppc. If the two departments work together they would see a much better ppc.

Ed Hansberry wrote
Why is MS obligated to provide you with a high quality piece of software on a $200-400 device (office) yet we expect that Office is a separate purchase on far more expensive desktop/laptop/tablet devices? IN a sense, you get more with a Pocket PC now than a bare copy of Windows in this regard. WIth Windows, you get Word Pad. With Pocket PC you get Pocket Word (Pocket Wordpad, whatever you want to call it) and Pocket Excel.

That is not so, it is expected the ppc will come with an excellent version of word and excel. HOw many copies of office are in use currently? HOw many copies are they still selling of office currently? Then that answers the question about both being an excellent version in word. It is a given that most people are using Office over another like program offering the same thing. If you are going to offer it and its compatibility then you do it knowing the users are ver familiar with the product so they, or we, are going to have high expectations of that product.

Ed Hansberry

11-13-2003, 07:47 PM

Ed Hansberry

11-13-2003, 07:54 PM

However, I've paid over $100 to Laridian for Bible software -- having three translations of the Bible and several reference works all on my PPC is worth that much money to me...
I justed added mine up for Laridian 8O $285.36 8O

I'd gladly double that if I could get maps/images too in some of the commentaries. :wink:

PetiteFlower

11-13-2003, 08:15 PM

Just got shown Mapopolis by a friend of mine last night.....WOW THAT'S COOL! But then he told me it costs $100.....whether it's worth it or not, that's way too much money. I'd be willing to pay a little more for this then for any other software I've seen before....but still not more then $50. I'm just too broke! Pocket Streets will have to do, that came with the Works Suite that came with my computer....

Thinkingmandavid

11-14-2003, 12:53 AM

I am saying and said, that when people get a ppc they are expecting a higher version of both word and exel. If it wasnt an important element then MS would not include it in their ppc.
There was obviously at least a little thought about it because they included it. It isnt relevant if it comes with a desktop, it is relevant that it is so widely used in the world. Most individuals and companies are using MS office. Universities, colleges, households, small businesses, corporations, using MS office. With that kind of information at hand it only makes sense to include a higher version.

Ed Hansberry

11-14-2003, 01:34 AM

{tap}{tap}{tap}{tap} Is this thing on? {tap}{tap}

I am saying and said, that when people get a ppc they are expecting a higher version of both word and exel. If it wasnt an important element then MS would not include it in their ppc.
There was obviously at least a little thought about it because they included it. It isnt relevant if it comes with a desktop, it is relevant that it is so widely used in the world. Most individuals and companies are using MS office. Universities, colleges, households, small businesses, corporations, using MS office. With that kind of information at hand it only makes sense to include a higher version.

No, they don't include higher versions for both Word and Excel. They include (saying it slowly) p--o--c--k--e--t-----v--e--r--s--i--o--n--s.

Right or wrong, that is what they do. So, let me ask my question again. Why is MS obligated (emphasis added) to provide you with a high quality piece of software on a $200-400 device (office) yet we expect that Office is a separate purchase on far more expensive desktop/laptop/tablet devices? IN a sense, you get more with a Pocket PC now than a bare copy of Windows in this regard. WIth Windows, you get Word Pad. With Pocket PC you get Pocket Word (Pocket Wordpad, whatever you want to call it) and Pocket Excel.

I don't think there would be any frustration if MS offered for pay richer versions, and given what SoftMaker has done with TextMaker and is doing with PlanMaker, paying extra for rich versions is just fine IMHO. You pay $500 for Office on the desktop. Paying $100 for Plan/Textmaker (or $11.11 during Carnival :D ) is totally acceptable if you need that power. To expect MS to pour those kinds of resources into developing rich apps and then giving them away in a $10-15 license fee per app (yes, $10-15) is not realistic. HP/other OEMs get the rest. MS makes a bug fart off of these items. It can't justify development time on the apps like you and others are expecting.

JustinGTP

11-14-2003, 02:22 AM

I also don't think that its about how broke you are Petiteflower, I just cannot justify that much money for a program, period!

Pocket Artist is probably the max I would pay for a program, and thats after heavy testing and my personal approval - and the program is amazing and worth it. All of those factors have to be present. :D

-Justin.

Brad Adrian

11-14-2003, 03:11 AM

I am saying and said, that when people get a ppc they are expecting a higher version of both word and exel.
I have no data to tell precisely, but I'd be willing to bet that, even though there obviously are plenty of people out there who really NEED word processors and spreadsheets more powerful than the current pocket versions, they still represent a vast minority of Pocket PC users. A lot of us here are power users, and it's erroneous to project our personal preferences upon the general user population.

Thinkingmandavid

11-14-2003, 05:06 AM

No, they don't include higher versions for both Word and Excel. They include (saying it slowly) p--o--c--k--e--t-----v--e--r--s--i--o--n--s.

so if you are following me then you would know i stated they want higher versions of the pocket version. The numbers would be interesting to see how many ppc users actually use one or the other or both.
I didnt say it had to be the full textmaker version. It is a matter of beefing them up. If u sell the product there is some legitimacy to what customers would like to have, and having a little more out of word and excel is NOT asking to much.
If yo want to side with obligated go for it, it still remains for better customer satisfaction, or dont you see it?

delfuhd

11-14-2003, 11:18 AM

Indeed, there are a few little things in Microsoft Word, outlook, and Excel that I would really appreciate on my pocket pc office apps. And to stay a bit on subject, I don't think that Microsoft should sell 'upgraded' versions of Pocket Word and such to the people who want it. They already have a few updates from HPC2000 like spell check and things. But there are still a few things that I feel are missing, but I wouldn't pay for them, I already payed 400 freakin dollars for this device I think I should get some freebies as well...

jlp

11-14-2003, 02:03 PM

Ed Hansberry wrote
Why is MS obligated to provide you with a high quality piece of software on a $200-400 device (office) yet we expect that Office is a separate purchase on far more expensive desktop/laptop/tablet devices? IN a sense, you get more with a Pocket PC now than a bare copy of Windows in this regard. WIth Windows, you get Word Pad. With Pocket PC you get Pocket Word (Pocket Wordpad, whatever you want to call it) and Pocket Excel.

That is not so, it is expected the ppc will come with an excellent version of word and excel.
Why? Why is an excellent version of Word/Excel expected with a Pocket PC (a $200-400 mobile device) and the only thing you get with a desktop (unless you pay extra) is WordPad? You are holding the Pocket PC up to a higher standard than Windows XP is being held to.

WHY you ask? Simply because they ADVERTIZE IT!!

You don't get Office on a desktop because it's not advertized (unless the seller has a special contract with MS).

While MS and the m anufacturers DO ADVERTIZE their device has Pocket version of Word, Excel, etc.

And by the way whoever said that Pocket versions of apps would be reduced in features?!!! This is what you and me know by unfortunate experience, but nobody ever said that!!

It could be that they just display on a smaller screen and have a less cluttered interface, but NOT NECESSARILY that they have much less functionalities. Especially NO CAPABILITY WHATSOEVER to retain any other formatting than bold, italics, underline and little more.

You have a table in your Word file?! Oooops sorry it's zapped!!
You have footnotes in your Word file?! Dang, they're gone!!
You have footers or headers in your Word file?! Darn they disapeared!!
You have a table of content, an index in your Word file?! Where in #€££ are they now??!!

Everybody did expect to have ALL their formatting retained (you know you did!!!)

To the best of my knowledge, the information is nowhere to be found that you will loose ALL you formattings beyond 3-4 basic ones, especially not on the product box!!

"WARNING: WHEN YOU TRANSFER MICROSOFT OFFICE FILES TO YOUR POCKETPC DEVICE YOU WILL LOOSE ABSOLUTELY ALL FORMATTING BEYOND BOLD, ITALIC AND UNDERLINE (and little more), BECAUSE OUR LOUSY (OR LAZY IF YOU WILL) PROGRAMMERS/PRODUCTS MANAGERS DIDN'T WANT TO INVEST MUCH TIME (READ: MONEY) IN A PRODUCT FOR WHICH WE ONLY GET A FEW BUCKS BACK!!!!" :twisted:

You know that it's what makes Palm users and Palm advertizement ridicule Microsoft for not being able to properly handle THEIR OWN FILE FORMATS on the PPC!!

If I were MS I would correct that in a heartbeat 1) not to stay ridiculed 2) to regain marketshare.

Quick questions:
A) How many people looking for a PDA are being marvelled by PPC only to get a PalmOS device because they need full Office files support?!

B) Why do you think many PalmOS device come bundled with pocket Office apps that DO RETAIN FILE FORMATTING?!

C) Why do you think those PalmOS pocket Office apps are best sellers?!

D) Why do you think SoftMaker has so much success with TextMaker?! And foreseeingly with PlanMaker?!!

Because people NEED these solutions and MS has failed to deliver them for 3.5 years now, ages in the computing era. And they still have no plans (that we know of) to change that!!!

You know it really amazes me that in a country "driven" by lawsuites, that nobody ever sued MS for implying that because they could take their Office files with them, which every body would understand and expect that pocket versions of Office apps would AT LEAST RETAIN FILE FORMATTING!!!!!

11-14-2003, 02:43 PM

Quick questions:
A) How many people looking for a PDA are being marvelled by PPC only to get a PalmOS device because they need full Office files support?!
Palm OS does not provide Office file support at all. (or very little). Not sure about OS5, but up OS4 devices couldn't even sync with Outlook without a third party program.

B) Why do you think many PalmOS device come bundled with pocket Office apps that DO RETAIN FILE FORMATTING?!
There is nothing to stop PPC OEMs bundling Textmaker and a spreadsheet program with their devices if they choose. If I were a marketing manager at HP I would consider doing this on my high end models, or at least make it an option, rather like the PC makers do with Office.

Docs to Go, when included with a Palm device is provided by the OEMs, not by PalmSource itself.

C) Why do you think those PalmOS pocket Office apps are best sellers?!
Because a certain proportion of PDA buyers want the ability to be able to use formatted office files on their devices.

D) Why do you think SoftMaker has so much success with TextMaker?! And foreseeingly with PlanMaker?!!
Same as for Palm, a proportion of the user base needs to have this capability. The Softmaker guys were smart enough to see the opportunity and produced excellent products to take advantage of it. Isn't that what software companies are in business to do?

As I've said before, I believe Microsoft have taken the right approach with this. An active developer base is needed to keep the platform alive, so MS should provide a good OS with basic functions and let the developers take care of the rest. Which they are doing very well by the way.

The only change I would make is to rename those built-in "Office apps" to show that they are closer to MS Works than MS Office. How they label them now certainly does cause some issues, as shown in this thread.

Ed Hansberry

11-14-2003, 04:08 PM

SoftMaker

11-14-2003, 04:50 PM

WHY you ask? Simply because they ADVERTIZE IT!!MS doesn't advertise full desktop or office functionality in the platform.

Hmm.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/buyersguide/helpmechoose/default.mspx

Pocket Excel: "A mobile version of the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet and analysis program that supports virtually all standard features of Excel. Fully compatible with Excel."

Pocket Word: "A mobile version of Microsoft Word that allows you to check spelling and supports formatting, graphics, and many other features of Word."

Martin Kotulla
SoftMaker Software GmbH

mlepage

11-14-2003, 05:59 PM

If Microsoft was worried about seeming more monopoly-ish by including fuller versions of their Office products on PPC, they would use different names for the Pocket versions. As it is they are using the Office names, obviously for their advertising value.

In all their advertising, they make it sound as if these are fairly capable Pocket versions of their desktop counterparts. This is obviously not true. As has been pointed out, PocketWord is far closer to WordPad than it is to Word.

Personally, I feel that PocketWord should be able to faithfully display all elements of a Word document, even if it doesn't let you edit them all. That it loses formatting and content is quite unacceptable.

I know that some will say that my expectations are out of line, but this is how I see it. I paid a lot fo money for my iPAQ 3970 when it came out. Part of what I was buying was Pocket PC 2002 and everything it came with. Part of that is PocketWord. Therefore, I bought PocketWord, and it is quite a disappointment.

Ed Hansberry

11-14-2003, 06:12 PM

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/buyersguide/helpmechoose/default.mspx

Pocket Excel: "A mobile version of the Microsoft Excel spreadsheet and analysis program that supports virtually all standard features of Excel. Fully compatible with Excel."

Pocket Word: "A mobile version of Microsoft Word that allows you to check spelling and supports formatting, graphics, and many other features of Word."
Ouch. Thanks for that link.

Gerard

11-14-2003, 06:20 PM

I most definitely agree on that last point about not stripping formatting out of files. Just because I view a Word doc on a PPC should not automatically, without offering any choice, remove important elements from the file. This setup assumes that there exists a safe copy somewhere else, and while this might usually be the case, in instances of emailed documents received only on the PPC, transferred via IrDA or Bluetooth from another user who is no longer accessible, or any number of other situations, this can be a disaster! So on that point alone I believe Microsoft should be ashamed, and fix the situation as soon as possible.

Of course, for the experienced user there are a couple of options. If you use a third-party closing app to kill Pocket Word, instead of OK-ing the file and automatically saving the file with PPC-style formatting, it will most likely not get wrecked. If you really want to guarantee no loss of formatting after viewing, just soft reset with the file still open. Nothing will have changed. Same applies to Excel docs. You won't be able to see animated pie charts or whatever (sorry, but I use only the most rudimentary of Pocket Excel's features, never getting into more than basic adding of columns as far as formatting, so I haven't a clue what Excel can do), but you won't lose them this way either. Still, this is hardly intuitive functionality. I can just see it in the Microsoft Help file:
"If you would like to keep the document you are viewing intact, not destroying potentially critical functions permanently, then just reboot your computer now without doing anything else first." Yeah, that's gonna happen.

But as for getting full versions of Word and Excel just nicely reduced for the screen size, that's just silly. I mean, the full Word install is something like 200MB or more on a PC, isn't it? How the heck are they supposed to cram all that programming, all those tools, into a 32-64MB ROM? Asking a bit much, even if one leaves out the clipart. Even TextMaker's basic installation is over 8MB, and that's without special dictionaries added. With a similarly bulked-out rendition of Pocket Excel under the hood, a PPC would need a minimum 64MB ROM allowance, which just wasn't possible when the earliest, 16MB PPCs came out, or not at a reasonable price to the consumer. 'Psst, buddy, wanna buy a Pocket PC with better word processing tools? It'll cost you a mere $2000. You'll take 5? Cool!'

And why not offer upgraded versions for a fee? If Microsoft had offered, say, three years ago, a much enhanced version of ocket Word for about $30, I'd have snapped it up! If they allowed simple tables, image tools, enhanced formatting options, a cleaned up interface, better drawing tools, saving to true DOC and RTF formats usable on any PC or Mac, I'd have been all over that! But now there's TextMaker, so they missed that boat. I figure probably a few million bucks went down the drain there, minimum. What'd it cost to develop? Maybe a few programmer-years, tops. Cost of development no more than $300,000. But that kind of profit margin is small potatoes in Microsoftese, so forget about it, right? Anyway, we have Textmaker, and soon others will join up no doubt.

sumfunny

11-14-2003, 06:33 PM

I am student and felt that $15 is about right, why you might ask, well because I don't have a keyboard and don't plan on using my ppc to write full out essays, although I do feel, textmaker does provide usefull functionality in proofreading etc, but I would never consider purcahsing it for over $25. I do understand that it is a full blown word processor, and other might take full advantage but for me it aint worth it.

Gerard

11-14-2003, 06:43 PM

Ed Hansberry

11-14-2003, 06:56 PM

Oh. Ouch indeed, Ed. The devices on the top of that Microsoft page are current models, so one must assume that these versions of the truth are Microsoft's current official position on Pocket Word and Pocket Excel capabilities. Forget what I said. Some rich and pissed-off guy; sue the pants off the bastards. That stuff is laden with promises which just don't hold water. I didn't realise that Microsoft was being so bald faced in lying to potential customers. Now I'm mad too.
I think there is a disconnect between marketing and development here. I didn't know those statements existed - they are sort of hidden yet a new person looking for info would definitely be looking at that type of page. I certainly wouldn't. {shrug}

Flame away. :onfire: Those statements are clearly not accurate. :?

mcsouth

11-15-2003, 12:05 AM

I certainly don't need the full functionality of Word or Excel on my PPC - heck, I don't use all the features on my desktop, and I am still at the Office97 level of those apps. However, as has been stated by others, I would fully expect that the Pocket versions of Word and Excel, while maybe not having the same feature set as their desktop brethern, should NOT strip out the formatting that they don't support.

Shortly after I moved from a Palm to PPC, I opened a Word document that I had originally created on my Palm with Docs to Go, and then updated between that and my desktop for a year or so. This document contained a year's worth of technical information that I had obtained from our engineering group through various activities, and was an invaluable resource for me.

Today, it is junk........I couldn't believe it when I opened the file on my desktop after having added some content using PocketWord - the file had lost tons of information. I was so mad that I almost threw my PPC in the trash!!!!! Since that day, I will NOT use PocketWord, and wish that I could remove it from ROM simply so that I would never again make this mistake.

I can appreciate that it is not practical for Microsoft to spend tons of resources to create a full featured product like Textmaker - however, I would have appreciated it if they hadn't provided me with this hidden bomb. I can just see the MS programmer laughing like a maniac in the corner...............

Superguy

11-22-2003, 01:14 AM

WHY you ask? Simply because they ADVERTIZE IT!!
You won't get an argument from ne that MS hasn't done a great job of managing expectations, but when you get a Pocket PC, no one really expects it to be XP in your pocket. It is a lightweight device and has lightweight features compared to a desktop. Pocket Office is the same way. MS doesn't advertise full desktop or office functionality in the platform.

I'm a relative noob to the PPC realm, having only bought my first one in June, but just by looking at the specs and only see 16 or 32MB of ROM (for the OS AND apps), you KNOW it's going to be a stripped down version and pretty limited. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that. I do however agree these programs should, at the very least, maintain formatting.

Docs to Go maintained the formatting better on a Palm, but it was still pretty limited and would strip out a lot of stuff as well.

scmok

11-22-2003, 05:27 AM

According to the discussion, the value should depend on the usage frequency and affordability of user. So it can use 2 charging options common in other merchandise.

1) Per user charge
2) Option to add tips for those appreciating and well off people

Unfortunately, there is at the moment not easy to implement such mechanisms.

Then there are the other options as used in the renaisance time.

3) Have some wealth landlords or merchants take care of the living of those who will create things for free distribution. Then you can find people like Leonardo De Vinci or Handel, Baggage etc. who create great works for the rest of us.

4) Feed the universities and let them create valuable cores so that others can take to adapt and use. Then make money teaching others how to use.

And the more recent approach of plugging the loop holes so that the same money can be made without charging too much, either by technical or adminstrative means. This is for the mutual benefit of developers and honest users.

Since copying or unauthorized use is illegal, it can be stopped by better law enforcement. When market distortion factors are eliminated, we can then talk about what is right price for something. There seems to be much less dispute for price of physical objects. But if there is no respect for intellectual property, we shall continue to see flooding of physical merchandise that do much harm to mother earth.

SC