Pocket PC devices do NOT make the grade

[Jereboam]

I have to say, unapologetically, that I am feeling pretty jaded about the whole Pocket PC experience at the moment. I have come to the conclusion that the Pocket PC, Windows Mobile 2003 and/or any previous incarnations of either basically just do not cut it as consumer devices by any standard.

If you pay a premium price for a product that promises much, you would rightly expect it to work out of the box. Not to add the many, many pieces of third party software you basically have to buy to make the device fulfil its promised potential.

Pocket Outlook? A laughable effort. Serious about your time and information? Forced to buy PI or AF.

Pocket Word/Excel? Miserable incarnations of their PC parents. Serious about viewing or heaven forbid editing your documents? More third party solutions.

Like to use your Pocket PC as an alarm clock or begads actually be reminded of something on time? Forget it. It goes wrong enough to never be relied on. Again, third parties do their best but the OS seems to be flaky enough to have even stumped them.

Timezones? Change them at your peril. Watch your appointments and birthdays get jiggled around.

Wifi and Bluetooth? Zero-config my backside. It still requires fiddling, messing about with Work/Internet, and generally speaking you have to massage the whole show into working right.

Like browsing the web? Despite the much-discussed "under-the-hood" enhancements that have been made in WM2003, has the actual Pocket PC browsing experience been enhanced one iota? In my opinion, no. It's still painful unless people have gone to the enormous effort of optimising their site for the small screen.

Email on the move? HA! Thank the freeware gods for nPop.

Microsoft Reader? Could someone please explain to me, when Reader was updated to 2.2.2 in June, why the so-called upgraded Windows Mobile 2003 OS I received in October still has 2.2.1 on it? Does anyone frigging well talk to each other out there? A piece of software less optimised for the small screen I have never seen. The brief for MS Reader came backwards from the marketing department...

And then there are all the minor OS quirks that we all go to great lengths to fix. Smart minimise? What the hell is smart about that? Which genius thought that leaving applications open on memory-limited devices was an intelligent thing to do? And then to make you dig through several layers to swap between applications or close them? Donkey droppings. The start menu? More inconvenient coding for a device with limited screen space I have yet to see. Can they spell c-a-s-c-a-d-i-n-g over there? And why to we have to rely again on third-party today plugins to show us at a glance important system information like battery/memory remaining? And for pity's sake, why does the whole deal have to be so uninspiring visually?

Why, I ask myself, is USB support a big new thing only just now starting to appear on a limited number of devices? Having direct USB connectivity just seems like the most logical thing in the world. Think of the peripherals that could be easily used...

And having owned an XDA and given up on it...Pocket PC Phone Edition is just a mess.

Yes, as a whole the technology we have today is amazing, and we can certainly enhance our lifestyles and businesses with it, but at what price? I consider myself somewhat of a Pocket PC and PC expert, and the lengths that I have to go to to get the simplest things to work or to overcome blinding bugs, or crashes, or hard resets, ad infinitum...your average man-in-the-street has no bloody chance. Not to mention the time I waste on all of this stuff. Hour for hour, have I been more productive with my Pocket PC? I have to say no.

The Pocket PC has simply failed to live up to its marketing promises and indeed potential. I am seriously reluctant to keep throwing time and money at this, but I know that unless people like us do, these things will NEVER live up to their potential. A life as an unofficial beta tester for all things computing awaits...

Right, rant over. It is going to be interesting to see if anyone agrees.

J'bm

[shawnc]

Excellent rant J'bm. I made similar points in a prior thread. The PPC seems to do things just well enough to get you excited about its potential. but poorly enough to frustrate the heck out of most users. THERE IS NO REASON WE SHOULD HAVE TO PURCHASE AF OR PI. NONE WHATSOEVER! And the issue with Pocket Word and Excel are about nothing but arrogance and/or greed.

Over the past 6 months I have purchased a new Toshiba laptop and Dell desktop. During that time, I have not purchased ONE additional piece of software or hardware. NOT ONE! Because these machines perform exactly what I was led to believe they would and they do them at a level that is acceptable to me.

On the other hand, I have spent more in accessories and software on my Axim than I paid for the device. I can accept the fact that I had to purchase a keyboard. But a cable that allows me to sync AND charge simutaneously? Thats ridiculous. Software so that I can change my today screen and load icons on it. Word processing so that I can actually WORK on a word document from my PPC. The list goes on and on.......

Excellent points. I think there are many who share your frustrations.

[Janak Parekh]

Well, Pocket PCs have their limitations, but it's not as drastic as you state.

Pocket Outlook? A laughable effort. Serious about your time and information? Forced to buy PI or AF.
What do you mean by "serious"? I used Pocket Outlook for years, and it did the job OK. I use PI now, but I have a rather complicated setup at this point.

Pocket Word/Excel? Miserable incarnations of their PC parents. Serious about viewing or heaven forbid editing your documents? More third party solutions.
But fantastic for notetaking or simple spreadsheets. I've never actually needed any more than this. If I want to, I can get TextMaker, SpreadCE, PlanMaker, etc.

Like to use your Pocket PC as an alarm clock or begads actually be reminded of something on time? Forget it. It goes wrong enough to never be relied on. Again, third parties do their best but the OS seems to be flaky enough to have even stumped them.
There are alarm bugs. :( I really haven't encountered them, strangely enough... but no excuses on this point.

Timezones? Change them at your peril. Watch your appointments and birthdays get jiggled around.
We've had long debates about this. Enough people like the principle behind appointment-moving. This is by design.

Wifi and Bluetooth? Zero-config my backside. It still requires fiddling, messing about with Work/Internet, and generally speaking you have to massage the whole show into working right.
Connection Manager does indeed suck. :evil:

Like browsing the web? Despite the much-discussed "under-the-hood" enhancements that have been made in WM2003, has the actual Pocket PC browsing experience been enhanced one iota? In my opinion, no. It's still painful unless people have gone to the enormous effort of optimising their site for the small screen.
Again, third-party replacements add tremendous value. Try Thunderhawk, NetFront, FtpXBrowser, etc. :)

Email on the move? HA! Thank the freeware gods for nPop.
Inbox works perfectly for me. And I use IMAP with a lot of mail.

Does anyone frigging well talk to each other out there? A piece of software less optimised for the small screen I have never seen.
No debate on the version and reactivation, but I like the margins. I find it easier on the eyes than Palm Reader/Mobipocket/etc.

And then there are all the minor OS quirks that we all go to great lengths to fix. Smart minimise? What the hell is smart about that? Which genius thought that leaving applications open on memory-limited devices was an intelligent thing to do?
If you use the PIM apps, this works quite well, actually. It'll automatically close programs. I agree that for power users it's pretty weak, and Pocket Plus is an absolute requirement on my Pocket PCs.

The start menu? More inconvenient coding for a device with limited screen space I have yet to see. Can they spell c-a-s-c-a-d-i-n-g over there?
Disagree. Cascading menus were in WinCE 1.x and 2.x, and they took it out -- most users hated it.

And why to we have to rely again on third-party today plugins to show us at a glance important system information like battery/memory remaining? And for pity's sake, why does the whole deal have to be so uninspiring visually?
Part of this is your taste, part of it is "optional". The Pocket PC does certainly warn you when the battery's low...

Why, I ask myself, is USB support a big new thing only just now starting to appear on a limited number of devices?
You mean USB Host? Because most people don't need it?

And having owned an XDA and given up on it...Pocket PC Phone Edition is just a mess.
Disagree. I carry a Pocket PC Phone Edition device now, and love it.

I consider myself somewhat of a Pocket PC and PC expert, and the lengths that I have to go to to get the simplest things to work or to overcome blinding bugs, or crashes, or hard resets, ad infinitum...your average man-in-the-street has no bloody chance.
I have friends who use Pocket PCs. My mom does too. She has very few problems with it, actually. She loves the device.

Hour for hour, have I been more productive with my Pocket PC? I have to say no.
I have. Many, many, many hours over for the last three years.

Right, rant over. It is going to be interesting to see if anyone agrees.
I agree on certain points, but I disagree with your perception with others. When you install Windows XP on a box, you don't get all the functionality you need right out of it -- you get basic functionality with the OS, and you have the ability to install more if you need it. The same goes for Pocket PC. There's enough for basic organizing, which is sufficient for most people, but if you need it, third-party solutions do a good job.

I'm curious to see how satisfied you'll be with a Palm or a Symbian device out-of-the-box, especially in the slickness of the PIM. Many people get add-ons there too. The Palm OS is generally very stable, but it has limitations as well.

--janak

[dh]

I don't really agree with you folks, although some of your points are valid.

Personally, I don't see Microsoft's job to be to provide a device that will do everything "out of the box". To keep me happy they have to provide an operating system that allows good things to happen.

Now, if the OEMs were to package some additional software with their products that would be nice. The laptops you mention Shawn must have had Office (or something similar) bundled with them or you would indeed have been needing to buy additional software. Palm and Sony have been including Docs to Go with some of their devices for a while which is a great idea.

The fact that the PPC OS is somewhat basic has encouraged innovation from third party developers. I use PI everyday and love it. I think it's better than Outlook and I would buy a desktop version if they ever make one. Sure Pocket Word is not very good, neither is WordPad or whatever it is that's included in Windows these days. Very few people use a Windows PC without Word, if you want "Word" on a PPC get Textmaker.

My biggest complaint is not with the OS as such, but with the OEMs. I would like to see more interesting designs than the same old things we are getting these days. Come to think of it, there's not even a two slot - two radio version of the tired design Hey, roll on the Loox 610. :D

I'm still using a PPC2002 Axim. It works great, is very stable (only hard resets have been for ROM upgrades) and has exactly the software that I want, not what MS tells me. I'm at least 90% happy with the software, I just hope there are exciting hardware options before too long.

[Janak Parekh]

Over the past 6 months I have purchased a new Toshiba laptop and Dell desktop. During that time, I have not purchased ONE additional piece of software or hardware. NOT ONE! Because these machines perform exactly what I was led to believe they would and they do them at a level that is acceptable to me.
Really? I always have a slew of software that goes on any new machine I set up. Mozilla, AIM, MSNM, Microsoft Office, ssh client, ftp client, image viewer, Adobe Acrobat, Photoshop, what have you... it takes me hours to get a new box running of the ground.

In my case, the Pocket PC's capability out of the box met my expectations almost exactly, and it's exceeded it with the help of some accessories and applications. All I really want now is more integrated thumbboards, a faster processor, higher-res display, and more wireless -- all OEM-level things, as dh implies.

--janak

[Fishie]

David made a great point.
Just to get the full desktop software wich MS has incorporated pocket versions of for PPC alone costs more then the majority of pocket PCs.
Full office suite costs more then the Ipaq 2215 I carry these days and that one comes with extra value added software wich allows me word and excell files witouth loss of formating etcetera.
You cant expect 200$ hardware to have the full functionality of 500$ worth of desktop software.
Last I checked new PCs and laptops didnt come with Outlook either, instead they ship with puny outlook express yet every PPC features outlook 2k or ussualy 2k2 for desktops wich in itself is another 100$ value.
Quit yer bitching.

[shawnc]

The laptops you mention Shawn must have had Office (or something similar) bundled with them or you would indeed have been needing to buy additional software.

I think my frustration got the best of me and caused me to forget that I had already purchased MS Office for the desktop that I replaced. So while my comment, while technically correct, is misleading.

Over the past 6 months I have purchased a new Toshiba laptop and Dell desktop. During that time, I have not purchased ONE additional piece of software or hardware. NOT ONE! Because these machines perform exactly what I was led to believe they would and they do them at a level that is acceptable to me.
Really? I always have a slew of software that goes on any new machine I set up. Mozilla, AIM, MSNM, Microsoft Office, ssh client, ftp client, image viewer, Adobe Acrobat, Photoshop, what have you... it takes me hours to get a new box running of the ground.--janak

As I mentioned above, I forgot that I had already owned MS Office. I think a free version of Adobe reader was already loaded on my machines. I assume the other items you mention are either freebees (AIM) or used only by the more technically advanced folks. But this misses the point. If I want to do something "extra", I don't mind paying for it (hence the comment about my keyboard). We can all quibble about the definition of "extra", but IMO, it should not include something as basic as listing my tasks on the today screen. Am I the only one who finds it amazing that I can't do this w/o a 3rd party app? Or that Pocket Word does not really allow syncronization with Word. Again, a 3rd party app is needed. I could go on and on but then we begin to quibble about "extra" again and I don't want to do that. I guess my point is that the overwhelming majority of software purchases for my Axim fall under the category of "I'm surprised to learn that this functionality is not built into my 4th generation PPC".

Strictly my opinion and a large part of my disappointment with my PPC.

Quit yer bitching.

Why is that some insist on categorizing contrary opionions as either bitchin or whining? It's a forum, opinions are what make it what it is. Just because you don't agree with them doesn't make them less significant. Get a clue.

[Jereboam]

I'm curious to see how satisfied you'll be with a Palm or a Symbian device out-of-the-box, especially in the slickness of the PIM.

I have used both, I have a Zire 71 for kicks but confess the last time I had my hands on Symbian was a while ago, and despite the fact that Palm's dependence on databases is just weird, and Symbian innovated themselves out of the running, the Pocket PC OS is genuinely more powerful. This was NOT meant to be a device debate.

My opinions are of course only that, opinion, but they are nonetheless valid and factual.

if you want "Word" on a PPC get Textmaker
If I want to, I can get TextMaker, SpreadCE, PlanMaker, etc

Why should I? It is touted as a mobile version of Word. What they don't say is that it is so stripped down as to be virtually useless for either viewing or creating Word documents. To do that requires spending a lot of cash.

We've had long debates about this. Enough people like the principle behind appointment-moving. This is by design.

I appreciate that it is by design, what I don't appreciate is syncing and then finding double day appointments and that everyone has two birthdays.

Again, third-party replacements add tremendous value. Try Thunderhawk, NetFront, FtpXBrowser, etc.

Again, understood, but significant extra expense.

Inbox works perfectly for me. And I use IMAP with a lot of mail.

IF you already have IMAP, fine. If not, Inbox really doesn't work that well.

Disagree. Cascading menus were in WinCE 1.x and 2.x, and they took it out -- most users hated it.

OK, I agree that cascading menus might not be the best way to do it, but the current implementation is also crud.

Part of this is your taste, part of it is "optional". The Pocket PC does certainly warn you when the battery's low...

Surely it is my taste, but so is it many others taste. It should be catered for...and critical system information like that should really be displayed easily and clearly. Call it a suggested enhancement then...it has value.

You mean USB Host? Because most people don't need it?

Beacuse they don't know they need it...ignoring the fact that drivers would have to be produced for Pocket PC devices this I think woulod be a genuine technological boon. Printing for example. Mind you, Pocket Word doesn't retain formatting so well, so maybe not.

Disagree. I carry a Pocket PC Phone Edition device now, and love it.

When it works. Poor SMS integration, poor contacts integration, many lockups. If it had Bluetooth and I could have used a headset, maybe I would have stuck with it. Here's hoping. Meanwhile, I have gone back to a two device deal.

I have friends who use Pocket PCs. My mom does too. She has very few problems with it, actually. She loves the device.

Likewise. Those with basic requirements and friends to help them out of tricky spots will be satisfied. That's not what this is about.

My biggest complaint is not with the OS as such, but with the OEMs.

Agreed. They have their cross to bear here as well. HP service is appalling, despite the overall quality of their devices (most of the time).

David made a great point.
Just to get the full desktop software wich MS has incorporated pocket versions of for PPC alone costs more then the majority of pocket PCs.
Full office suite costs more then the Ipaq 2215 I carry these days and that one comes with extra value added software wich allows me word and excell files witouth loss of formating etcetera.
You cant expect 200$ hardware to have the full functionality of 500$ worth of desktop software.
Last I checked new PCs and laptops didnt come with Outlook either, instead they ship with puny outlook express yet every PPC features outlook 2k or ussualy 2k2 for desktops wich in itself is another 100$ value.

Yes, but the potential of my PC is far greater than that of my Pocket PC. The pocket versions of the desktop applications are almost useless, with the exception of the PIM which I suppose does the job. The fact that software is bundled is not a defence, rather an admission that the versions in ROM are seriously lacking in ability. How can you suggest Outlook 2k (which is what now comes with all Pocket PC software bundles) is worth $100?

I don't demand that the Pocket PC approximate the performance of my PC, but I do demand that the applications perform to a level that is useful to me. They simply fail to do that.

Quit yer bitching.

Umm, NO. In any case, I am not as you put it, "bitching", but am pointing out that the Pocket PC platform has serious flaws and issues that are consistently not addressed by either Microsoft or OEMs and I doubt that any groundbreaking developments will change this in the future, although I am willing and eager to be surprised.

J'bm

[Jereboam]

I can't believe I forgot about Activesync.

Can we all agree, at least, that Activesync sucks? :lol:

J'bm

[Janak Parekh]

Why should I? It is touted as a mobile version of Word. What they don't say is that it is so stripped down as to be virtually useless for either viewing or creating Word documents. To do that requires spending a lot of cash.
I disagree. For the kind of documents I use a Pocket PC for, it's more than enough. It's fast, simple, useful.

Again, third-party replacements add tremendous value. Try Thunderhawk, NetFront, FtpXBrowser, etc.
Again, understood, but significant extra expense.
Are you saying you never buy third-party apps? ;) PIE is quite useful for a number of sites I use, but when I need full browsing, I whip out Thunderhawk.

IF you already have IMAP, fine. If not, Inbox really doesn't work that well.
Hmm. Never had a problem with POP either...

Surely it is my taste, but so is it many others taste. It should be catered for...and critical system information like that should really be displayed easily and clearly. Call it a suggested enhancement then...it has value.
Agreed on "suggested enhancement".

Beacuse they don't know they need it...ignoring the fact that drivers would have to be produced for Pocket PC devices this I think woulod be a genuine technological boon. Printing for example. Mind you, Pocket Word doesn't retain formatting so well, so maybe not.
But even then, USB printer drivers are complex beasts. I wouldn't want to load down my Pocket PC with that. I'd rather use Bluetooth/IR -- and solutions for that exist today.

When it works. Poor SMS integration, poor contacts integration, many lockups. If it had Bluetooth and I could have used a headset, maybe I would have stuck with it. Here's hoping. Meanwhile, I have gone back to a two device deal.
SMS via Inbox is a bit weak, but it's still a million times faster than T9. I find the Pocket PC Phone Edition OS a little less stable than the regular Pocket PC OS, but I rarely soft-reset more than once a week or two. The new XDA has Bluetooth and headset compatibility -- OEM issue again.

Yes, but the potential of my PC is far greater than that of my Pocket PC. The pocket versions of the desktop applications are almost useless, with the exception of the PIM which I suppose does the job.
Again, I disagree. :D To use a desktop analogue, Word doesn't come with XP -- WordPad does. And WordPad is pretty simple too. ;)

The fact that software is bundled is not a defence, rather an admission that the versions in ROM are seriously lacking in ability. How can you suggest Outlook 2k (which is what now comes with all Pocket PC software bundles) is worth $100?
Huh? Outlook 2000 is a rather seriously powerful PIM. It is totally worth $100.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Can we all agree, at least, that Activesync sucks? :lol:
Sure. I've been calling for SyncML support, and even pinged one of the MS Mobility guys about it during CeBIT. You can read my article elsewhere on this site...

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

We can all quibble about the definition of "extra", but IMO, it should not include something as basic as listing my tasks on the today screen. Am I the only one who finds it amazing that I can't do this w/o a 3rd party app?
Maybe. When Palms came out, they didn't even have Today screens. They still don't, really, although they finally have "agenda views" in the latest Tungstens. I agree these features would be useful to have built-in, but who is to say what should and shouldn't be included in the OS? Why doesn't Microsoft bundle antivirus and Office-like capabilities with XP?

Strictly my opinion and a large part of my disappointment with my PPC.
Of course, it's your opinion. We just happen to disagree. I personally like that Pocket Word and Excel are lightweight and do the job well. I know I can upgrade later if I need to.

--janak

[Jereboam]

I buy tons of thrid party apps to make up for Pocket PC shortcomings, that's kind of my point, but a subscription to Thunderhawk would be additional expense I can do without.

Yes, but Outlook 2000? We have Outlook 2003 just around the corner. Is there any particular reason I should be happy with Outlook 2000 for a stated value of $100 when many of us already have Outlook XP? Bundling stuff is again not much of a defence here, IMHO.

Anyway, late here, back to abuse you all tomorrow. ;)

J'bm

[Janak Parekh]

I buy tons of thrid party apps to make up for Pocket PC shortcomings, that's kind of my point, but a subscription to Thunderhawk would be additional expense I can do without.
Then get NetFront, which also works hard at reformatting, and doesn't require a subscription.

Yes, but Outlook 2000? We have Outlook 2003 just around the corner. Is there any particular reason I should be happy with Outlook 2000 for a stated value of $100 when many of us already have Outlook XP? Bundling stuff is again not much of a defence here, IMHO.
Don't WM2003 devices come with Outlook XP, instead of Outlook 2k?

--janak

[Thinkingmandavid]

I think it would be nice if AS was improved 100% and had a lot 100% more flexibility to it.
A good thing MS could do is improve upon the OS so there would be less quirks and more stable. When we load it up, turn it on, and go about our day with it, we shouldnt have to hope or worry about the OS.
I am soon to buy a keyboard for my e355 for note taking at the grad school, and will just transfer it over to my laptop. I dont need a lot of bells and whistles for that, when i need it that is what my laptop is for 8)
It would be nice to have improvments on the entire ppc, but question, what is realistic????????????????? That brings me back to stability in the OS and flexibility in AS :wink:

[cooldw57]

agreed...I was a loyal Palm user until this summer (from Handspring Prism+Visor phone to Toshiba E750), the first few weeks are exciting, but then I found myself missing all the great functions on Palm... ie. the Alarm function from Calendar simply DOES NOT wake me up in the morning , Palm's Databook does a way better job... Hate to admit it but there 's a lot of catchup work to do for Pocket PC

[Fishie]

I buy tons of thrid party apps to make up for Pocket PC shortcomings, that's kind of my point, but a subscription to Thunderhawk would be additional expense I can do without.
Then get NetFront, which also works hard at reformatting, and doesn't require a subscription.

Yes, but Outlook 2000? We have Outlook 2003 just around the corner. Is there any particular reason I should be happy with Outlook 2000 for a stated value of $100 when many of us already have Outlook XP? Bundling stuff is again not much of a defence here, IMHO.
Don't WM2003 devices come with Outlook XP, instead of Outlook 2k?

--janak

Yah most if not all wm2k3 machines come with outlook 2k2/xp

[Thinkingmandavid]

I agree, the alarms are not loud enough!!!!!!!!! I would like to install some better sounds on it, mmm, anyone know of a good site for this???

[Jereboam]

Yah most if not all wm2k3 machines come with outlook 2k2/xp

My "upgrade" came with Outlook 2000. If Outlook XP is bundled, then that is worthy of praise...although, hang on, why are we even in a situation where we feel that it is good if someone includes (woohoo!) up to date software with our purchase? We've been brainwashed into accepting less and subsequently into being pleased when we actually get our due for once.

agreed...I was a loyal Palm user until this summer (from Handspring Prism+Visor phone to Toshiba E750), the first few weeks are exciting, but then I found myself missing all the great functions on Palm... ie. the Alarm function from Calendar simply DOES NOT wake me up in the morning , Palm's Databook does a way better job... Hate to admit it but there 's a lot of catchup work to do for Pocket PC

Although I'm effectively trashing the Pocket PC in this thread, I have to disagree. Palm is only just now beginning to catch up with Pocket PC...specifically on the stability of alarms though, you are right. Pocket PC alarms don't do the job.

Then get NetFront, which also works hard at reformatting, and doesn't require a subscription.

I'll take a look. I hate getting tied into subscriptions. Although I have very fixed opinions, one of the things you'll find about me is that I'm ALWAYS open to suggestion and perfectly willing to look at alternatives.

Why doesn't Microsoft bundle antivirus and Office-like capabilities with XP?

I think limited antivirus is coming in new versions of Windows...although we'll see what the DoJ has to say about that... ;)

J'bm

[coppertop]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

[shawnc]

We can all quibble about the definition of "extra", but IMO, it should not include something as basic as listing my tasks on the today screen. Am I the only one who finds it amazing that I can't do this w/o a 3rd party app?
Maybe. When Palms came out, they didn't even have Today screens. They still don't, really, although they finally have "agenda views" in the latest Tungstens. I agree these features would be useful to have built-in, but who is to say what should and shouldn't be included in the OS? Why doesn't Microsoft bundle antivirus and Office-like capabilities with XP?

I agree that if you put 10 people in a room and asked what should be included, you would likely get 9 different answers. My 1st PDA was a PPC so I didn't fall into the trap of using Palm as a barometer (still don't). All I know is I vividly remember spending hours reading the manual and playing with the machine to try to get my Tasks to display. It never occurred to me that an Organizer would not allow me to do this. I figured that I must be doing something wrong. To me, that would be like telling me that I had 4 appointments today, but requiring an additional "tap" to find out what time, and where, the appointments were.

Strictly my opinion and a large part of my disappointment with my PPC.

Of course, it's your opinion. We just happen to disagree. I personally like that Pocket Word and Excel are lightweight and do the job well. I know I can upgrade later if I need to.--janak

Actually we may agree on this a little. Pocket Excel works for many Excel users who don't use many of the advanced features (pivot tables, macros, etc). And that likely represents a significant portion of Excel users. Pocket Word, on the other hand, is useless (IMO) when it comes to synchronization with laptop/desktop. I think "lightweight" is a v-e-r-y generous description of the capabilities of Pocket Word :wink: . M$ should be ashamed to even include this with their OS and use an icon that mirrors their desktop version. Again, just my opinion.

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

I think this is what MS is counting on and the primary reason they have saddled us with an unacceptable level of performance. I can't speak for Jereboam, but I doubt very seriously that my next PDA will be a PPC. I'll take a strong look at the new Tungsten machines for xmas. If they don't work, I'll likely either hold on to my Axim and see what Dell is offering as their competition to the ipod. That's pretty much all I use my Axim for these days anyway, to play MP3's/WMA's.

So sad.........these machines had such potential.

[Jereboam]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

I am hoping that your mispelling of my handle, which by the way is spelt J-E-R-E-B-O-A-M in case you need it, is not a particularly juvenile insult.

Throwing out a question like that is classic trolling and is not contributing anything to what has thus far been an interesting discussion that has certainly, at least, provoked me into taking a second look at my complaints, although most of them still stand.

If you would like to offer your opinions on an alternative(s), which is basically Palm as has been rationally discussed already, I will be happy to debate. Otherwise, do please go away.

:byebye:

J-e-r-e-b-o-a-m

[Chuckwrox]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

Love it or leave it? Why fix things when you can abandon them, outright?

[Jereboam]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

Love it or leave it? Why fix things when you can abandon them, outright?

If you were talking to me, I don't tend to leave things that readily. And I have never said that the Pocket PC platform does not have fantastic everyday usability that I take full advantage of...GPS navigation is one personal example. I use it all the time, although I would prefer it not to crash half way through a journey, although that is probably the application rather than the OS admittedly.

There are many things I will continue to use a Pocket PC for. That will never stop me from picking out the flaws, in the hope that the collective community whinge will reach Redmond and if the stars are aligned correctly, enough chickens are sacrificed and enough coffee is on hand some of these issues may get seen to.

J'bm

[JustinGTP]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

I am hoping that your mispelling of my handle, which by the way is spelt J-E-R-E-B-O-A-M in case you need it, is not a particularly juvenile insult.

Throwing out a question like that is classic trolling and is not contributing anything to what has thus far been an interesting discussion that has certainly, at least, provoked me into taking a second look at my complaints, although most of them still stand.

If you would like to offer your opinions on an alternative(s), which is basically Palm as has been rationally discussed already, I will be happy to debate. Otherwise, do please go away.

:byebye:

J-e-r-e-b-o-a-m

Whoa. Touchy. I don't know why you are complaining to us, especially when you are on a Pocket PC website. Get a laptop and quite your whining, I don't think most of us care to hear it. And how was what he wrote a "juvenile insult"? There was nothing degrading there.

-Justin.

[Jereboam]

Well, Justin, the fact that I have two Pocket PC's and that I thought that it would be interesting to discuss the shortcomings of the OS and platform (and conversely my/our hopes for the future of it) with people who understood what I was talking about, is exactly why this thread is on a Pocket PC website.

And I have a fine laptop thanks, a spiffy Vaio. What has that got to do with anything?

And intentionally misspelling my forum handle is playground stuff.

And if you don't care to hear it just don't bother reading through the thread anymore...I don't mind.

J'bm

[JustinGTP]

Well, Justin, the fact that I have two Pocket PC's and that I thought that it would be interesting to discuss the shortcomings of the OS and platform (and conversely my/our hopes for the future of it) with people who understood what I was talking about, is exactly why this thread is on a Pocket PC website.

And I have a fine laptop thanks, a spiffy Vaio. What has that got to do with anything?

And intentionally misspelling my forum handle is playground stuff.

And if you don't care to hear it just don't bother reading through the thread anymore...I don't mind.

J'bm


Ok

[Chuckwrox]

Nono, dude. I'm saying that this conversation isn't about abandoning the ppc, but about how it could be improved. Love the PPC or leave it, that's a pretty useless attitude, isn't it?




What's your alternative?

Love it or leave it? Why fix things when you can abandon them, outright?

If you were talking to me, I don't tend to leave things that readily. And I have never said that the Pocket PC platform does not have fantastic everyday usability that I take full advantage of...GPS navigation is one personal example. I use it all the time, although I would prefer it not to crash half way through a journey, although that is probably the application rather than the OS admittedly.

There are many things I will continue to use a Pocket PC for. That will never stop me from picking out the flaws, in the hope that the collective community whinge will reach Redmond and if the stars are aligned correctly, enough chickens are sacrificed and enough coffee is on hand some of these issues may get seen to.

J'bm[/quote]

[Shadowcat]

Well, Justin, the fact that I have two Pocket PC's and that I thought that it would be interesting to discuss the shortcomings of the OS and platform (and conversely my/our hopes for the future of it) with people who understood what I was talking about, is exactly why this thread is on a Pocket PC website.

And I have a fine laptop thanks, a spiffy Vaio. What has that got to do with anything?

And intentionally misspelling my forum handle is playground stuff.

And if you don't care to hear it just don't bother reading through the thread anymore...I don't mind.

J'bm

Look, chill out. I'm sure that your name was spelt wrong by accident only. You may have tried to start discussing the shortcomings of the Pocket PC but from reading your comments in this thread the only conclusion I drew was all you want to do is complain. That may not be what you intended but your attitude and way of writing points that way. Please change your attitude.

[Jereboam]

Nono, dude. I'm saying that this conversation isn't about abandoning the ppc, but about how it could be improved. Love the PPC or leave it, that's a pretty useless attitude, isn't it?

Ahhh....bliss. Someone who gets what I'm getting at. Thanks man, I was beginning to lose all hope.

Look, chill out. I'm sure that your name was spelt wrong by accident only. You may have tried to start discussing the shortcomings of the Pocket PC but from reading your comments in this thread the only conclusion I drew was all you want to do is complain. That may not be what you intended but your attitude and way of writing points that way. Please change your attitude.

And capitalised? Ok, nevermind, it really doesn't matter. I'm pretty chilled...other peeps seem to be getting bothered by something.

And I'm not going to change my attitude, because I see nothing that should bother people. Yes - I am complaining. Yes - the Pocket PC does have many shortcomings. Yes - I do want to discuss them. Yes - I do think that this is the right venue for such a discussion.

If we could all finally accept that I am a Pocket PC user and supporter, and actually move back on topic, that would be nice. Otherwise this is pointless and I'll just delete the thread (I assume we can delete our own threads?).

J'bm

[dh]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

I am hoping that your mispelling of my handle, which by the way is spelt J-E-R-E-B-O-A-M in case you need it, is not a particularly juvenile insult.

Throwing out a question like that is classic trolling and is not contributing anything to what has thus far been an interesting discussion that has certainly, at least, provoked me into taking a second look at my complaints, although most of them still stand.

If you would like to offer your opinions on an alternative(s), which is basically Palm as has been rationally discussed already, I will be happy to debate. Otherwise, do please go away.

:byebye:

J-e-r-e-b-o-a-m

Whoa. Touchy. I don't know why you are complaining to us, especially when you are on a Pocket PC website. Get a laptop and quite your whining, I don't think most of us care to hear it. And how was what he wrote a "juvenile insult"? There was nothing degrading there.

-Justin.
Young Honda, I happened to not agree with a lot of the comments that Jereboam made in the original post.

One thing 1 have no problem with is his right (I assume he's a he, sorry if wrong) to make the comments in the first place. This is a discussion forum, not a Microsoft suckup place.

I think it is true to say that we are all here because we want to get the best from our PPC experience. Since we are all different, the ideal experience varies from person to person. That's good, not bad in my opinion.

Get a Laptop is probably just what Microsoft would prefer too. :-)

[Jeff Rutledge]

Get a Laptop is probably just what Microsoft would prefer too. :-)

Actually, I think they'd rather you get a tablet. 8)

And thanks for trying to kick this discussion up a notch, dh.

[Shadowcat]

Now I better get back on topic before Steven Cedrone comes and locks up the thread. I haven't bought any software for my Pocket PC at all. I use only the included applications and some freeware that I can find. This is because of money constraints and the fact that I can live with most of the included and free software. Refering back to Jereboam's first post,

1. I find Outlook and Pocket Outlook to be very sufficient for my needs. I think it all depends on one's needs. I may ask very little of the software, you may ask for a lot.

2. Pocket Word and Pocket Excel are "Pocket" versions afterall. No one said anything about giving you the full capabilities of the desktop versions. However, I have to agree that Microsoft can do a much better job. Large word files are impossible to open. I wouldn't go so far as saying that Pocket Word and Excel are miserable though. Once again it depends on one's needs. Most people don't even touch the surface of the features offered by the desktop equivalents.

3. I admit that alarms don't work well at all. I don't care as I don't use it in that way but I respect the fact that you and many others do care about this.

4. I actually like the timezone feature a lot. It is very useful for travelling. If you don't like it then don't use it.

5. I don't have WiFi yet so I can't comment. I have a H2210, a Bluetooth cell phone, and a Bluetooth headset. I have them all paired up and I haven't had any problems with them.

6. I didn't try browsing in Pocket PC 2000 so I can't compare, but I find that IE in Pocket PC 2003 is ok for basic needs. I think for the best experience webpages must be optimised. What can you expect? We have 3.5 to 4.0 inch LCDs! Again it appears that you desire more powerful features than many.

7. I have no comment for e-mail on the move as I haven't tried it yet.

8. Ok, Microsoft Reading is just plain bad. Microsoft needs to get their act together. In the meantime go get an alternative. There are several.

9. Yes, smart minimize isn't that smart at all. I'm guessing that this is catering to the less technologically minded folk out there. There are many programs that can provide you with a real close button, plus much more! I almost never use the start menu actually. I use a Today plug-in or I just go to the programs folder. A start menu isn't that effective with such small screens. Once again this is a matter of opinion.

10. USB would be a pain to implement with all the device drivers that would need to be written. I think that if Microsoft implements it it will be another source of complaint. I personally don't see the need for USB host capabilities. I want my device to be pocketable. I don't want to lug a huge desktop-sized keyboard or anything of the sort. Some people need it but I believe it would cause too many problems.

11. Never had a PPC PE. No comment.

12. Yes, there are bugs. I rarely have to do soft resets, much less hard resets. It is true that the average person can't handle a PPC right now. Yet often you are demanding more advanced features that would just cause more bugs and make PPCs even harder to use for the average person.

13. Truthfully most things never live up to their potential. If you don't feel it's worth your money, then I suggest you don't spend it. Wait until the features you want are included and you can jump back in then!

To summarise, I believe that the most vocal people here are the ones that demand the most features. However, we are the minority. Microsoft needs to strike a balance and it also needs to give room for third-party developers to make some money too. Just like on the desktop, if you want more, you need to pay more. I think it makes perfect sense. However, Microsoft has indeed been sitting on its butt too long and needs to get its act together. Also, Jereboam, some of your complaints are merely personal preferences. I don't think you should say that makes PPCs unuseful.

Just my 2 cents.

[Jereboam]

Thanks dh. That is a viewpoint I can most certainly respect.

Microsoft has had its pound of flesh (and gold) from me, that's for sure. I happen to be a fan, but that will never stop me from being constantly critical - just as long as I remember to give praise where it is due.

J'bm

[Shadowcat]

And I'm not going to change my attitude, because I see nothing that should bother people. Yes - I am complaining. Yes - the Pocket PC does have many shortcomings. Yes - I do want to discuss them. Yes - I do think that this is the right venue for such a discussion.

If we could all finally accept that I am a Pocket PC user and supporter, and actually move back on topic, that would be nice. Otherwise this is pointless and I'll just delete the thread (I assume we can delete our own threads?).

J'bm

I didn't doubt that you aren't a Pocket PC user and supporter, but your initial comments did not reflect that at all IMHO. I moved back on topic already in the above thread. It just took me a long time to write it, that's all. It shows that I do care :wink:. No, we can't delete our own threads after someone replies. Don't worry, Steven will intervene if it gets out of hand.

[dh]

I think Shadowcat has made an important point.

The success of a platform like PPC is dependant on having a thriving developer community. That has always been one of Palm's strengths. How often do we hear of the zillions of Palm apps that are available? To be fair, a lot are not up to much but they are certainly out there.

With PPC we have some fantastic developers. WebIS, Developer One, SPB, Sprite, Softmaker and many others are publishing brilliant software, better than many desk top applications.

Regardless of whether we believe Microsoft should do more with the OS, we do have a ton of great software to check out.

For someone wanting to get the best from their PPC, the developer community certainly makes it possible.

Oh, I love this new version of Calligrapher as well.

[Jereboam]

I have software from most of those developers...and I'm beta testing Calligrapher 7 now. dh, if you haven't tried Phatpad you should give it a whirl. Great sketching/jotting app.

Perhaps the path Microsoft should take here should be more along the lines of the desktop OS...stick to the OS, create the framework and let the developers develop the applications for it. Then we can all make our own choices...and the limited space we have in ROM can be turned over to creating a more intuitive, stable operating system.

Shadowcat, I'll come back with comments on your bumper post tomorrow...tired and off to slumber. On timezones though - I do like the theory of it...I am a serious traveller. In the past two weeks I have been in Moscow, London, Geneva, Seattle, San Francisco and LA. I just hate having double birthdays again now. This is a good example of really needing a feature and being forced to put up with a flawed implementation. Not to mention having to carry an alarm clock...taking up extra space in my bag...but when you need to wake up on time to catch a flight, you just can't trust the Pocket PC... ;)

J'bm

[terrypin]

I'm squarely with Jereboam and shawnc and others on this.

As a newcomer to the hand-held world (since Psion 3a a decade or so ago) I agree with most of the criticisms Jereboam outlined. But my biggest disappointment since buying my 2210 in July has been what I've described in separate posts as the 'WM2003 alarm fiasco'.

All the forums I've visited, such as Brighthand, Pocket PC Thoughts, TekGuru, etc, all contain threads about its various impacts. From alarms that don't come on, through alarms that come half-on, to alarms that won't go off. Considering you can pick up 'PIM' units for a few dollars/pounds, complete with reliable alarms, it's incredible that MS/HP should have released this. (The only reason I continue to bracket MS and HP is that I can't get a clear picture on which one is responsible, so for the moment I'm assuming it's both.)

Microsoft and HP however appear to be surprisingly mute on the subject.

A few developers and users have been discussing potential fixes/work-arounds for some weeks in http://www.tekguru.co.uk/phpBB2/viewforum.php?f=20

But the only robust solution appears to depend squarely on MS/HP fixing the OS. So when can we expect that - anyone know please?

Using iPAQ 2210 with WM2003.

--
Terry, West Sussex, UK

[Traveller]

Looks like the controversial subject line has opened the usual "what is better" debate.

A lot of what we want in our PDAs is based on current experiences with various information devices and therefore the perfect device will always be an individual preference.

Ultimately, we want the PDA to be very portable, have a long battery life, look stylish, and be an easy to use appliance (much like a cell phone). PDAs have along way to go but definitely, as mentioned elsewhere, we on this forum, will drive manufacturers to reach this point. We, as technophiles, represent 10-20% of the population. The rest don't care about having to tweak their device; they just want it to run as expected from the box. It is the 80% of the population that the manufacturers want to capture and their success is dependent on feedback from forums like this and users like us.

There is some truth to an earlier post that Redmond wants us to buy TabletPCs. I believe this is the future direction. The functionality we want in a PDA can be found in a tablet. Of course, its size has a way to go to meet our expectations of a PDA but 2 lb, half inch thick models are available now. Who knows what other sizes Redmond has planned. Some tablets with the Centrino processor have the same or better battery life than a PocketPC. And the Compaq TC1000 has a nifty utility that provides instant on to access your calender/contacts/to dos without having to boot up XP. Someone mentioned alternatives; there may be one in the near future.

[dh]

But my biggest disappointment since buying my 2210 in July has been what I've described in separate posts as the 'WM2003 alarm fiasco'.
Well, I'm still using PPC2002, which of course is not known for it's great alarm features either.

I've kind of gotten mine to work using SuperAlert. This at least allows the volume to be at "Wake up you lazy git" level.

This set up works 100% of the time as long as I make sure I close all programs before going to sleep and let my Axim turn itself off. If I leave any program open, I hear the alarm when I wake up late and turn on the PPC.

Big problem is that I like to read eBooks in bed so I sometimes forget to close Mobipocket reader. Good way to be late. :cry:

[surur]

Microsoft has had its pound of flesh (and gold) from me, that's for sure. I happen to be a fan, but that will never stop me from being constantly critical - just as long as I remember to give praise where it is due.

J'bm

Just a small note. In fact you have given microsoft quite a small amount of money. I believe the PPC license is only about $5, or around there. For this you get an OS, and also outlook, which sells for $80 at least. When I got my first ppc I did not use Office, and was quite happy to get a full blown PIM for free.

I think its quite good that microsoft has made the platform open to 3rd party developers, up to giving away development tools for free initially. Of note is that most of the essential 3rd party enhancements are freeware e.g wisbar, calender plus, FTXbrowser, TodayInfo, tdlaunch etc.

In fact when I first changed to PPC from palm, I was quite concerned about the availability of software and freeware, but this has not been a problem at all.

Now if Microsoft was charging $200-400 for the software on a pocketpc, and called it pocketOffice, I would complain very loudly, but to get the functionality of the pocketpc for $5 makes me quite happy. Remember there are quite a few Linux PDA's, and they cost even more than most pocketpc's. The main cost is definitely the hardware, and of course the manufacturer's margin. Now I wish textmaker cost $20 instead of $70, but I also wish Microsoft Office 2003 cost $100, not $400.

We cant always get what we want, and if its exactly what you want it wont usually be cheap.

Surur

[shawnc]

Now if Microsoft was charging $200-400 for the software on a pocketpc, and called it pocketOffice, I would complain very loudly. Surur

Surur, I don't disagree with your message but I just want to point something out. Most of the folks who use this site are at the very high-end of the technical specturm. Though MS calls it "Pocket Office", to most people this distinction gets lost when they see the icons that look identical to the ones loaded on their desktop. Additionally, it's not like they make very clear just what "Pocket Office" means. They don't make it clear that PO is basically a viewer program for Word and Excel. That update / sync capability for the overwhelming majority of users simply is not possible with this software. I think by displaying the same icons and NOT making clear (again, to the non-technical user) the inherent limitations of the software, they are intentionally misleading people when marketing this product.

I agree that the product is fairly priced for what it does. I just don't think it's clear what it does (or more importantly, what it doesn't do) until the user has purchased the product.

[surur]

But of course these are the complaints of the uninformed first time buyer.

We are mostly onto our second or third devices, and should be more realistic in our expectations.

Surur

[Jereboam]

I am not an uninformed first time buyer, thanks.

Nor, if I were an "uninformed first time buyer", would I be any more or less satisfied with the inherent problems of the Pocket PC, as I have outlined above.

In fact, I would be completely mystified as to why my wifi doesn't work, why I can't do Bluetooth Activesync for an unknown reason, why my alarms don't go off, why I can't read my ebooks even though I have a "new" device, and so on. In fact, if I hadn't put in the time to educate myself about these issues, and try and get round them, by way of tips/tricks or (collectively expensive) third party software solutions, by spending hours reading and posting to forums like this, writing bug reports and suggesting enhancements to both commercial and freeware developers, and ultimately dealing with all these issues to my satisfaction, and so on...I would have given up on this whole deal a long time ago.

Where did it say on the box of my 5450 that the ROM version I was using was fatally flawed and these flaws rendered my much vaunted built-in wifi totally useless? Where did it say that I had to go download another ROM image and update it, then update the wifi firmware, then the wifi driver, to get a reasonably reliable level of operation? Where did it say that in order to get the wifi firmware update to "take", I had to remove the battery for several seconds, otherwise I got an error message? This was buried in the HP forums, if you can call them forums. One example of how difficult it can be for your "uninformed first time buyer" to deal with issues.

And on the subject of getting Pocket PC functionality for $5 - that's pretty nonsensical, no offense intended. Without the hardware you have nothing. And shall we not forget that to install just about any software and to get maximal use from your Pocket PC it is presupposed that you have a PC with the associated Windows OS? Thus if you actually weigh that pound of flesh, you come up with a pretty expensive deal.

Now, I chose to spend that money. I have no regrets. I was not forced to buy either a PC or Pocket PC, or Windows or anything. I could live without all of them if I had to. My choice. This is not about money, excepting that I am disappointed that I have to spend more money on third party solutions to fix flaws in the Pocket PC. Anything else, that provides extra functionality, is again my choice, however much I think it should have provided natively in the OS...

I am perfectly willing to spend the cash, to put my money where my mouth is, to get exactly what I want. But the fact still remains that I have spent a lot of cash to do that with the Pocket PC, when I should not necessarily have to, if Microsoft addressed at least some of the issues I have mentioned. The Pocket PC is a wonderful thing, but there is much room for improvement.

Traveller, I agree the subject line was possibly controversial, but that was deliberate in order to provoke debate. Not to plain provoke...

I agree with you on the rest of your post. I am waiting for Tablets to go second or third generation before investing, but I have no doubt that I will eventually buy. I wonder how much use I will have for a Pocket PC then, or if they will even exist? I really hope they do, and that functionality, portability, battery life etc will have been enhanced to make it an essential companion to my new Tablet. Who knows?

Anyway, my intention was not to rub anyone up the wrong way with this thread, but as above to provoke debate.

J'bm

[Thinkingmandavid]

I think we should all be able to post and not take what is typed by someone else personal. When we post we already know we risk everyone not agreeing with us, in fact if everyone agreed with us it would be a very boring forum.The exchange of ideas helps to build the mind and I want my built by everyone around this forum :wink:
I agree that that the ppc doesnt come 'poweful' enough, but that is inmy veiw.
word should be upgraded,
excel upgraded
the os itself needs a lot of work
i should not have to buy a 3rd party software to actually get windows and programs to close,when i'x' them out they should be gone just as onmy XP.
it should be automatic for every ppc to come with at least one wireless connection software since I would obviously be connecting just as I would onmy home computer and at a much more reasonable cost than 299 :roll:
if my ppc/pda is meant to go with me everywhere i go and to be used in everything i do, then it must possess a power beyond two ppc's put together 8O
so 128 should be the minimum ram adn the speed needs to be closer to a gig. the reason? our lives are being lived fast, socieity as a whole is fast, and the quicker the tools are at our disposal the quicker ican get things done in life and quicket to the things I enjoy doing.
rifht now i am seeing an advertisement to upgrade a ppc to 256 ram, that shouldnt even be necessary, what should be necessary is them advertising for an upgrade in ram beyond 256 that would already come installed in my ppc, such as 512.. admit to it, you would love it :!:
if the software is not up to par to the hardware we should blame microsoft for dropping the ball on that one. when 3rd party software is offered, it shoud be they are being forced to be no less than 3 times as creative to offer software for ppc's that we as the end users would desire to purchase.
THIS IS ALL JUST FOR STARTERS.....

[Traveller]

One thing I did notice when I switched to PPC was that I had to buy and install more software on a Palm (back in the Palm V days) to get the same functionality as my iPaq 3950. But this may have changed since then and also Compaq/hp tend to provide more free third-party apps than most PPC manufacturers.

[shawnc]

I think we should all be able to post and not take what is typed by someone else personal. :wink:

Considering how much activity this thread has gotten, I think the conversations have been civil and the discourse very helpful. You are always going to get one or two who think that only good things should be said about PPC's on a PPC forum, or accuse those who mention shortcomings of whining or bitching.

You'll never hear that from Jason or the moderators, because they understand that civil disagreement is a large part of what makes this site so great. I for one have found this thread to be very interesting and informative.

[Jereboam]

I think we should all be able to post and not take what is typed by someone else personal. When we post we already know we risk everyone not agreeing with us, in fact if everyone agreed with us it would be a very boring forum.The exchange of ideas helps to build the mind and I want my built by everyone around this forum

I'll do my best to brainwash you, ahem, sorry, build your mind... :D

I do my best to ignore what I think are personally derogatory comments, but sometimes I get the better of myself...

I want people to disagree with me, for the very reasons you point out but not for disagreement's sake. Likewise it is affirming when someone actually agrees with something you have taken the time to write.

I agree that this thread, despite it's controversial title, has been pretty civil. I have enjoyed it and hope that everyone else has also.

Btw, has everyone seen that Microsoft's Voice Command (http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=1679) has been added to Handango for $39.95? This could be cool...

J'bm

[Jereboam]

Although I can't seem to find it on Handango itself, maybe it's been removed...

J'bm

[Thinkingmandavid]

Are we talking about the same voice command that is available in the new toshiba's?
Iwill never hear what from Jason? I have seen him and the moderators say somethign about some of what has gone on in the forums. I didnt mean that this thread had gone bad by any means, but rather than to go on about it all and see it be a waste of time, I am wondering about the voice command

[qmrq]

To JEREBONE and the others who don't like PPC...

What's your alternative?

Love it or leave it? Why fix things when you can abandon them, outright?
Uhm.. I don't understand what you are saying here .. :) It is hard for users to 'fix' anything in the Pocket PC OS - it's proprietary and closed source.

[qmrq]

I think its quite good that microsoft has made the platform open to 3rd party developers, up to giving away development tools for free initially. Of note is that most of the essential 3rd party enhancements are freeware e.g wisbar, calender plus, FTXbrowser, TodayInfo, tdlaunch etc.
I'm pretty sure the SDK is still free. ;)

[surur]

I believe the .net version is no longer free :(

Surur

[qmrq]

If so, that's crap. :\