Secure Digital To Become Leading Format by 2005 [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

10-13-2003, 02:00 PM

<a href="http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=109711">http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=109711</a><br /><br />"According to recent reports by leading industry analyst organizations, the SD Memory Card will gain in global market share and consumer acceptance in 2003, and is well on its way to dominance of the international flash memory market."<br /><br />Now, this is a press release by the SD Card Association, but if you look around, there are more and more devices each day that have SD support. I can't think of a modern Pocket PC that doesn't have an SD slot. Now, if the SDIO market could get its act together to have one standard that works, we'd be set. :D

bjornkeizers

10-13-2003, 02:59 PM

Agreed. SD is slowly becoming more and more popular. In the old days, it used to be CF; but not many of the current PPC's use it, nor can use it through cradles and adapters. Like the Ipaq 1915 that I have.. I can only use SD for memory, so obviously, more and more people have to use it, whether they want to or not.

CTSLICK

10-13-2003, 03:11 PM

trachy

10-13-2003, 03:46 PM

UPDATE: Looks like some of those MMC cards from ATP are available (http://www.memoryx.net/xmm256.html).

Hey, that's cool. Thanks for the heads up. I assume like SD they'll be compatible with with PPCs, despite the larger size? It seems I used to have a digital camera that only supported memory up to a certain size.

shawnc

10-13-2003, 03:46 PM

SD/ MMC.....I don't know what the difference is. If both of them allow me to store files, music, etc. and both fit into the SD slot on my Axim, then I'm going with price. The only reason I own SD is because I thought it was the only option available for the SD slot. I don't even know what the heck "Secure Digital" means. My data is "secure" as long as no one steals my card. I don't want to pay for any "security" features beyond that. If MMC plays my music, stores my files, and does it for LESS money, long live MMC.

Timothy Rapson

10-13-2003, 04:00 PM

This is largely driven by the camera market abandoning CF and Smart Card for the SD/MMC form factor. I don't think the market is nearly as big for PDA cards as for camera cards. I could be wrong.

Anyway, the same is happening in PDAs. Personally, I can't figure out why all the manufacturers went this way. I prefer CF. But, try to find a PDA that uses it. At best you find them using both slots. The Asus A620 is the notable exception and it proves that size is not the reason to go SD. It is just as small as the Toshiba E300s, Dell Axim X3s, and Viewsonics.

The larger advantage of CF is that there are already a ton of peripherals out for CF AND THEY WORK. Palm, Asus, and others are flatly stating that SDIO is not at all like CF for expansion other than memory.

But, SD is what we are getting. Guess we will just have to deal.

Foo Fighter

10-13-2003, 04:03 PM

What??? No memory stick? :treadmill:

roberto_torres

10-13-2003, 04:10 PM

That's wrong :soapbox:

The dominating memory card will be the Memory Stick by Sony. It already is dominating int he PDA and consumer electronics arena.

Roberto
Self confessed Soniasta.

......

Just Jocking. SD is the way to go!

Jonathon Watkins

10-13-2003, 04:19 PM

I don't really care who has the dominant standard - CF or SD (As ling as it isn't menory stick that is! :roll: ), as long as there IS a dominant standard. Fragmentation is bad with many differnt formats. One bigger market is best - so we can all stock up on the same cards.

Jonathan1

10-13-2003, 05:00 PM

HA HA! Die you memory stick POS! :2gunfire: :snipersmile: :twak: :bad-words:

Ahh that was therapeutic. Seriously though. As much as I believe that SD will rule the world some day you are always going to have CF as a player. Simply. If you can fit X storage in a SD form factor you can generally double or triple that in the CF form factor. For those devices that need massive amounts of space or requires a larger form factor to fit electronics in a space that SD won't do CF will be around.

greenmozart

10-13-2003, 05:00 PM

... as long as there IS a dominant standard.

I disagree. I'd rather have two competing standards. Not only does it drive prices down it also gives me greater flexibility in what I choose to purchase and how it fits into my device. The larger size of CF allows the card to fit most of its volume inside the device, while SD peripherals will stick out a LOT more. Also, having two slots allows me to use two peripherals simultaneously - for instance if I have an SD memory card that stores all my pictures I can still use a CF modem or GPRS card to send them to relatives or post them to my moblog. FLEXIBILITY rather than limitations.

Jonathan1

10-13-2003, 05:01 PM

stevew

10-13-2003, 05:05 PM

When Casio came out with the em-500 it had a MMC slot and back then they were saying MMC was going to be the next hot standard for PPC's.

Hooked

10-13-2003, 05:20 PM

Personally, I can't figure out why all the manufacturers went this way. I prefer CF. But, try to find a PDA that uses it. At best you find them using both slots. The Asus A620 is the notable exception and it proves that size is not the reason to go SD. It is just as small as the Toshiba E300s, Dell Axim X3s, and Viewsonics.

The larger advantage of CF is that there are already a ton of peripherals out for CF AND THEY WORK. Palm, Asus, and others are flatly stating that SDIO is not at all like CF for expansion other than memory.

Moreover, because of the size differences between the form factors, a CF slot can take a CF-SD adapter and actually accomodate an SD card. With the appropriate drivers, I don't see why it couldn't handle SDIO cards as well. (see http://www.expansys.us/product.asp?code=PRECTRIO)

I think the bigger issue is having only one slot, which usually means having to choose between storage and connectivity. They could probably fit two SD slots in the same space as a CF. The Tapwave Zodiac is the first dual SD pda, so it is possible.

Anyone know of a 56k SDIO modem?

ricksfiona

10-13-2003, 05:21 PM

It looks like more and more companies are dropping the prices on 512MB SD cards too... It's pretty easy to find it for about $150.

surur

10-13-2003, 05:51 PM

I think this is an example of manufacturers moving the market against the wishes of the masses. I wonder how a more expensive, less capable, less flexible slot won out over CF :?:

What I really want is a in-car cd player that also takes CF cards, so I can easily move my playlist, and have the same music in my pocketpc as my car. I would think a SD card would be too small and finicky for that application. Still looking though...

Surur

Jonathan1

10-13-2003, 05:52 PM

Personally, I can't figure out why all the manufacturers went this way. I prefer CF. But, try to find a PDA that uses it. At best you find them using both slots. The Asus A620 is the notable exception and it proves that size is not the reason to go SD. It is just as small as the Toshiba E300s, Dell Axim X3s, and Viewsonics.

The larger advantage of CF is that there are already a ton of peripherals out for CF AND THEY WORK. Palm, Asus, and others are flatly stating that SDIO is not at all like CF for expansion other than memory.

Moreover, because of the size differences ?

Right there you hit the reason on the head. Size. CF is nice and vestal but you would never have a device the size of an iPaq 1945 if you stuck a CF slot in there. You guys need to keep in mind we are tech heads who want to add a lot of features to a system no matter how bulky it makes it. There are a lot, maybe even a majority, of users that want their devices small and light and don’t care about adding a camera, radio, modem, WIFI, etc. This is where SD shines. Yes, we don’t have as many devices as what CF has but give it some time. I’m betting by 2005 you will have SD WIFI (It’ll be here this year.), SD Bluetooth (Already available.), modems (shouldn’t be too hard.), Cameras (Already here.), etc all in abundance.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

10-13-2003, 06:14 PM

If MMC plays my music, stores my files, and does it for LESS money, long live MMC.
MMC is currently capped out at either 128 or 256, has lower throughput capability, and is limited to storage only. That's the reason MMC expected acceptance was stunted by the introduction of SD. SD is basically promising to provide CF-type of functionality with cards the size of MMC.

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

10-13-2003, 06:17 PM

When Casio came out with the em-500 it had a MMC slot and back then they were saying MMC was going to be the next hot standard for PPC's.
That machine was my first PPC and while Casio missed slightly in shooting for MMC, they did have the foresight to make their devices compliant with SD memory cards (despite SD not having been released yet at the time).

Since then, I'm quite hard-pressed to think of a PPC that didn't support SD aside from the iPaq37xx and the PPCPE devices.

arebelspy

10-13-2003, 06:22 PM

I can't think of a modern Pocket PC that doesn't have an SD slot.

How about the Asus' Mypal A620, a review of which was on the front page of PPCT just on Friday? ;)

Still, yeah, SD will winnar! 0X

-arebelspy

wizardmaster2k

10-13-2003, 06:22 PM

i like cf because it is all memory and no security features like the sd card. mmc is just the same as cf but only in a smaller size and a bit slower. if sd didnt have the security feature it would basically be a souped-up mmc card. ditch security features and ill be set. until then im with cf cards (fast, cheap, widly available, and mulitple-devices accept them)

remember the pcmcia flash media lol......

quidproquo

10-13-2003, 09:20 PM

Beta vs. VHS vs. DVD

8 track vs. Cassette vs. CD

5.25 floppy vs. 3.5 floppy vs. CDRW

Anyone see a patteren here? :twak:

It is all an evolutionary process...... CF vs. SD vs. ??

They will never settle on one media as they (the industry) are always trying to produce better products and "one-up" the competition.

Don't get too used to SD.... because there is always something out there on the horizon..... :|

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

10-13-2003, 09:57 PM

Don't get too used to SD.... because there is always something out there on the horizon..... :|
Agree and disagree... the evolution of technology will always move us onto newer and better things, but I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss SD as just another transitory format.

Just look at the current adoption of SD... nearly all PPCs and a good portion of Palms support it. Many music players support it. It's one of the few formats that support I/O in addition to memory and of all the static memory formats on the market, only CF is able to beat the storage capacity of SD.

CF has served us well for quite a number of years because of the same versatility... I think it will only be a matter of time before SD completely takes over that torch.

jlp

10-13-2003, 10:11 PM

CF has served us well for quite a number of years because of the same versatility... I think it will only be a matter of time before SD completely takes over that torch.

I really think CF will coexist with SD for a long time. It's mathematical: because CF has up to 6-8 times the inner volume, you'll ALWAYS find CF cards with much higher capacity than SD, that's inevitable!!!

Look, now you don't see anything over 512 MB for SD cards. 1 GB SD has been promised since about a year now, but still not here.

While you can have 6 GB in CF format, that's 12 times more. And by the time the 1GB SD card will be out, you'll have 12 GB CF cards, Pretec announced cards of that size for early 2004; again that's 12 times more.

A while ago the difference ratio was 2:1, then 4:1, now it's 12:1 8)

shawnc

10-14-2003, 01:34 AM

MMC is currently capped out at either 128 or 256, has lower throughput capability, and is limited to storage only. That's the reason MMC expected acceptance was stunted by the introduction of SD. SD is basically promising to provide CF-type of functionality with cards the size of MMC.

ekkie, thanx for the explanation.

Based on the last post it seems as though many are missing the point. The article doesn't predict the demise of the CF card, only that SD will pass it in popularity. Makes sense to me. How many people truly need a 6G card for storage. For the overwhelming majority of people, 1G will do just fine. SD will have 1G shortly, and maybe even 2G. If CF capacity will always exceed SD by 2-4 times, then there will be a place for both for the duration of our lifetime, thank you very much.

maximus

10-14-2003, 01:44 AM

Where the heck are those bigger MMC cards that some company named ATP was promising (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17582&highlight=mmc)? Nothing against SD card as I have 3 of them myself but why do I need to pay for the "SD" when" I don't necessarily need what secure digital does?

UPDATE: Looks like some of those MMC cards from ATP are available (http://www.memoryx.net/xmm256.html).

As predicted, the price difference between the 256 MMC and the 256 SD are not significant enough to persuade users (like myself) to switch from SD to MMC. Bye bye MMC. Come back again when you are priced at least 40% cheaper than SD cards.

CTSLICK

10-14-2003, 01:47 AM

maximus

10-14-2003, 01:52 AM

Look, now you don't see anything over 512 MB for SD cards. 1 GB SD has been promised since about a year now, but still not here.

A while ago the difference ratio was 2:1, then 4:1, now it's 12:1 8)

[personal opinion]
The problem with CF cards are the size. It is not big, but it is not exactly small either. SD, on the other hand, has the perfect size. 2 SD cards fits into most of PPC cases. Most camera leather carrying case have slots for CR3V batteries (2x AA size), which happens to be the perfect size to store SD cards.
[/personal opinion]

I really think CF will coexist with SD for a long time. It's mathematical: because CF has up to 6-8 times the inner volume, you'll ALWAYS find CF cards with much higher capacity than SD, that's inevitable!!!

CFs will coexist with SD, alright. But its number will be overwhelmed by SD cards. I have both CF and SD cameras, I have more than 5 256SD cards, and only 1 CF card.

And that is the future for CFs.

jlp

10-14-2003, 03:09 AM

Makes sense to me. How many people truly need a 6G card for storage.

It was Bill Gates himself who once said that people would NEVER need more than 640 KB (NOT MB, KB) of memory in a PC. :roll:

Today most computers have about 1,000 times that amount!!

For the overwhelming majority of people, 1G will do just fine. SD will have 1G shortly, and maybe even 2G.

Panasonic, one of SD proponents is just releasing an SD card based moviecam. One 512 MB SD card yields only 10 minutes of DVD quality movies, so multi GB SD cards will are sorely needed. 3 GB is needed for a standard one hour duration.

If CF capacity will always exceed SD by 2-4 times, then there will be a place for both for the duration of our lifetime, thank you very much.

512 MB to 6GB is 12 times NOT 2-4!!! :roll:

Jonathon Watkins

10-14-2003, 09:15 AM

bothari

10-14-2003, 10:51 AM

Just to add my personal opinion:

1 - I've seen someone loose an sd card, simply due to it's size! personally i would be very nervous to handle 512 mb of ny data in an sd.. Of course within a coupple of years 512 mb will be just enough for a doc file :wink: , but until then...

2 - I've also seen someone snap the camera clean off a sd card/camera. I'm not saing that it won't happen with a cf, but it will be a lot more unlikely.

3 - 512 mb sd cards might be coming down in price, but so are cf cards, so for the same value i can allways get something bigger...

4 - Besides, forget memory, have you seen the price diferential between cf devices (cameras, bt, gps) and sd devices?

Yes, industry would love to move to sd, and we will have to follow, but i will do it sadly... and when it does move i will just buy one of those adapters to use on my memplug *Dual* cf adapter :D...

Ed Hansberry

10-14-2003, 12:47 PM

Makes sense to me. How many people truly need a 6G card for storage.

It was Bill Gates himself who once said that people would NEVER need more than 640 KB (NOT MB, KB) of memory in a PC. :roll: No he didn't. No one can ever take that quote and tie it to any event or even a year with accuracy, it is always just a nebulous year in the early 80s. Just one of those urban legends, geek style. He admits he's blown lots of predections, but that one he never made.

Dyehouse1

10-14-2003, 01:38 PM

I would like to say that having read something long ago about SD it rocks! they reckon that it can scale all the way up to 8GB so I dont think space will be a worry for some time and by then I am sure that something else will have taken over. CF is too slow and SD beats MMC by speed again thats why its slightly more expensive.

Jonathon Watkins

10-14-2003, 05:16 PM

Which is usually faster - SD or CF?

Prevost

10-14-2003, 09:13 PM

In the Canon web site I found a new camera equipped with SD instead of CF, something new for Canon AFAIK.

Now, it's an small camera, but also probably a hint of things to come.

shawnc

10-14-2003, 09:59 PM

It was Bill Gates himself who once said that people would NEVER need more than 640 KB (NOT MB, KB) of memory in a PC. :roll:

Bill Gates NEVER said that. Check your facts! :roll:

Panasonic, one of SD proponents is just releasing an SD card based moviecam. One 512 MB SD card yields only 10 minutes of DVD quality movies, so multi GB SD cards will are sorely needed. 3 GB is needed for a standard one hour duration.

Again, The MAJORITY of people who use a PDA will NOT be viewing DVD's on them.

512 MB to 6GB is 12 times NOT 2-4!!! :roll:

No s**t sherlock, what's your point? :roll:

Steven Cedrone

10-14-2003, 10:14 PM

Please do not turn this thread into a brawl...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

jlp

10-14-2003, 11:48 PM

No, he did not say that: http://www.wired.com/news/politics/...83,1484,00.html

Your link doesn't work it's truncated.

However, I've read about that a long time ago, at the time OS2 1.0 (NON graphical) came out, maybe even before.

jlp

10-15-2003, 12:02 AM

It was Bill Gates himself who once said that people would NEVER need more than 640 KB (NOT MB, KB) of memory in a PC. :roll:

Bill Gates NEVER said that. Check your facts! :roll:

Whether he said it or not is not themost important, you totally missed the point that people say we don't need that much memory, yet they go out to buy the latest and greatest.

Can you tell us you still use the very first PC/Mac/PDA you owned and it has enough capacity to handle today's demanding programs/tasks/data??

That's my point more than anything else, sorry you couldn't see thru all by yourselves!!

Panasonic, one of SD proponents is just releasing an SD card based moviecam. One 512 MB SD card yields only 10 minutes of DVD quality movies, so multi GB SD cards will are sorely needed. 3 GB is needed for a standard one hour duration.

Again, The MAJORITY of people who use a PDA will NOT be viewing DVD's on them.

This thread is NOT on PDAs alone it's on SD cards, so it's perfectly fine for me to talk about other devices using such cards!!

512 MB to 6GB is 12 times NOT 2-4!!! :roll:

No s**t sherlock, what's your point? :roll:

It's purely mathematical, but you missed that too, so never mind!!

Kati Compton

10-15-2003, 01:48 AM

Last warning. Any more Bill Gates comments or nasty language, and the thread will be split and/or HOFS'ed.

maximus

10-15-2003, 02:06 AM

Which is usually faster - SD or CF?

CFs are 'usually' faster. In digital camera world, CFs are clearly still the winner in term of performance and capacity ... but again, the size of the CFs is the negative. Uh well, I guess we are going to stick to both CFs and SDs for the time being.

shawnc

10-15-2003, 04:23 AM

Last warning. Any more Bill Gates comments or nasty language, and the thread will be split and/or HOFS'ed.

Steve sent me a private message telling me to tone it down and I agree. I really didn't mean to come off as a smart-aleck. After getting Steves message I went back and re-read my post and I can see the problem. I have no problem with jlp's reply as he should be given the chance to respond.

Hopefully now we can get back to the business at hand. Sorry. :oops:

Gerard

10-17-2003, 05:59 PM

I have only one SD, a 256MB Lexar. It's in the 3835 all the time, for most of my programs and a lot of archived files and a lot of music, and for backups. The iPAQ mostly lives in a MemPlug dual CF sleeve, because I have a CF modem, two CF cameras, 4 CF memory cards, and a PC>CF adapter for my Accurite 6GB external hard drive.

If SD cards were currently as versatile as CF, chances are I'd be buying CF still. Even if SD could provide all that I need, at the same price as CF, I'd still go with CF. SD cards are easily lost and very fragile - especially when used as an adapter for a camera or something bigger. There isn't now, nor will there probably be an adapter to go from PC II format to SD, so dropping CF slots would make my hard drive obsolete. I am actually thinking of getting one of Accurite's 20GB external hard drives, as this one has served me very well for three years, and my files are crowding it a bit... Their options are PC or USB connectivity, and so far there's not a lot of choice among USB-enabled PPC models.

I ran a small MMC card through the wash, twice, because I forgot the thing in a zippered pocket and never noticed it there until after the second wash/dry cycle. It still worked, but really, why risk it with a more expensive card? A casual pocket check would always turn up a CF card. They're just the right size. I have a small antique brass box which nicely stores three CF cards, the MemPlug keeps the fourth (a partitioned 128MB Sandisk), and the whole package isn't really all that bulky.

There seems to me to be an excessive push by many users towards small things. Cellphones, cameras, PDAs, whatever, it's all getting scrunched down to almost nothing. Occasionally the convergence argument crops up, and many protest that they want seperate devices, and it all quiets down again. Guess what? Converged devices are inevitable, and we're already seeing Palm-ish and PPC devices with cameras, phones, and all manner of networking garbage tossed into them. Soon there will be radio and television in many of these besides, and probably GPS and other gizmos besides. I hope the rush towards making all that into a too-small package doesn't go too far, because frankly these screens are already too small, and I'd hate to lose my 20-function converged device in the wash, or because a gust of wind grabbed it off my fingertip.