Difficulty accessing Pocketpcthoughts--spyware? Mediaplex? [Archive]

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maikii

10-11-2003, 06:55 PM

For the last couple weeks, until now, I have not been able to access Pocketpcthoughts.com. When I enter that URL in my web site, I get the logo at the top of the page, and a blank blue page. I tried various times, always that same result.

How was I finally able to access the site now? I had to disable all protection against unwanted cookies and spyware, both in IE and a couple extra programs I generally use for privacy protection, such as the PC Magazine utility Cookiecop 2, and "Spybot-Search and Destroy. (Previously, I had no problem accessing this web site with those privacy-protection programs running. This problem has just started recently. One must allow a known spyware program, Mediaplex, to be installed on the system, in order to access this site.

Anyone else experienced this? (Well, there may be many who don't see this, and cannot respond, because they cannot access this site any more, and don't know why.)

Jason, has there been a recent change to your web site to this effect? If so, did you explain it somewhere on the site? (If so, I missed it.) I understand your need to earn some money from this site, but if many people can't access the site and don't know why, and the site loses readers, I don't think that will help. Also, people value their privacy, and want to have some protection from unwanted spyware, etc., and do not want to permanently disable that.

What's up?

PetiteFlower

10-11-2003, 08:16 PM

Mediaplex has been a part of this site for a while. When I was using Spybot's "immunize" feature, I couldn't access the site either. Apparantly it's part of the Sprint ad campaign. Jason claims it's not spyware, Spybot disagrees. I would be much happier if it was not a part of the site, personally, but as it's not my site there's nothing I can do about it.

Janak Parekh

10-11-2003, 10:29 PM

Hang on... MediaPlex is not a spyware application that gets installed on your PC. It's an ad-farming company. The most they might do is to set a cookie on your PC. We would never actually do one of those evil ActiveX spyware program installs, a la Gator.

--janak

PetiteFlower

10-11-2003, 10:37 PM

Right, I didn't think it was a program, but it does leave a tracking cookie.

ctmagnus

10-12-2003, 02:22 AM

JustinGTP

10-12-2003, 06:34 AM

Cookies are spys aswell, they track where you go and what you do.

maikii

10-12-2003, 08:06 PM

fwiw, Spybot occasionaly asks me if I want to block the download of Avenue A Inc (or something similar). I usually get that on this site (as opposed to getting it at other sites), but then I spend most of my surfing time here. 8)

But can you access Pockedtpcthoughts with Spybot "Immunize" feature enabled?

I used to, but as I said, there has been a major change in the last couple weeks. No one else noticed a change lately? People in charge, has there been some kind of a change?

When I try to go to this site with "Spybot Search and Destroy" immunize feature enabled (an excellent freeware program for detecting and removing spyware by the way, better than "Ad-Aware"), I get the message that there is an attempt to "install Mediaplex, a known threat". Do you agree to have it installed? My normal practice is to choose "No" for such a question, and with most web sites, that doesn't cause a problem in accessing the site. However, as I mentioned, with this site, now I get the logo at the top of the page, and the blank blue background. (No error messages or anything.)

So, I tried clicking "yes", that I agreed to let Mediaplex be installed. But still I get the same result, the empty blue page. When however, I completely disable the S&D immunize feature, I find I can access this site.

I really don't like to permanently disable that program, as it is a good feature, watching out for spybots. It's a hassle to disable it to access this site, and later enable it again. Anyone know what's going on?

Jason (Jason Dunn, owner of this site), are you reading? Do you know why this is happening? Has there been some kind of change lately. Or has something happened to my software setup?

(In case anyone is interested in trying "Spybot--Search and Destroy", the main web site for it is at: http://www.safer-networking.org/, or http://security.kolla.de/)

--------------------
By the way, any third party cookie that tracks your usage over various web sites could be considered spyware, keeping track of all your internet usage. Quite different from a cookie such as the one installed by this web site itself, which remembers your login and password, so that one can be automatically logged in each time, which is convenient.) The third party cookies installed by the ad companies, which track the user's overall internet usage, are spyware, although programs such as "Gator" might be a worse kind of spyware.

dMores

10-12-2003, 08:21 PM

Cookies are spys aswell, they track where you go and what you do.
no they're not. cookies are just bits of reference, they are nothing but simple text files that store certain bits of info. so, the cookie doesn't track where you go, but a cookie is set when you go somewhere.

cookies are our friends. don't panic!

ctmagnus

10-12-2003, 08:56 PM

But can you access Pocketpcthoughts with Spybot "Immunize" feature enabled?

Yes.

maikii

10-13-2003, 12:48 AM

cookies are our friends. don't panic!

An overly simplistic and often untrue statement.

If you write "sometimes cookies are our friends", then I'd agree, such as the cookie that remembers our username and password when we open this web site, so we don't have to login each time. (If you checked the box to enable that.)

In many (most?) cases cookies are not "our friends", are not there for the benefit of the user, but are for others to track us for their own purposes.

xoiph

10-13-2003, 03:26 AM

cookies are our friends. don't panic!
http://www.abc.net.au/central/stories/m473502.jpg

Yum!

Jason Dunn

10-13-2003, 05:07 AM

Cookies are used by every single ad company out there, so if you don't want to access a site that drops cookies, you'd better get off the Internet.

I've already explained this once (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=18477), and I can't say it any clearer than that. I can understand the desire to protect yourself from legitimate spyware, but lately people are getting positively spastic about it. You've had 100's of cookies on your computer for years, and they don't do a darn thing except tell advertisers "Hey, this computer has already seen this ad, so serve up this ad instead next time".

It's the cost of doing business on the Internet today. The only alternative would be for you subscribers to turn off ads if you don't want to see the Sprint ads that are served up by Mediaplex.

PetiteFlower

10-13-2003, 01:09 PM

Kati Compton

10-13-2003, 05:06 PM

Well, you can always read the MediaPlex privacy policy.

http://www.mediaplex.com/mplx_privacy.shtml

It says that they don't collect personally identifiable info, just keep track if you click on an ad, and if you buy anything after clicking on the ad.

Jason Dunn

10-13-2003, 05:59 PM

Cookies are used all the time it's true, but not all of them are flagged as spyware by programs like Spybot. We're not concerned for no reason here Jason. None of the other ads on the site set off Spybot, are you SURE there's nothing about our surfing habits being tracked by MediaPlex?

No, I'm not sure - why don't you open up the cookie and paste the results of it in here, then we can see what it really says? :-)

[searching]

This is funny - a Google search for "Mediaplex spyware" gives PPCT as the #1 ranked site. ;-)

[searching]

Aha!

http://www.spywareinfo.com/newsletter/archives/december-2002/12252002.php

"It's verified now that the eBay toolbar is violating eBay's own Privacy Policy. According to eBays Privacy Policy, Appendix 2, stuff like IPs etc. is given to Advertisers only in a non-personal manner, to External Service Providers only with given permission (which is not asked for in the toolbar license agreement) or upon direct contact (which the user doesn't know anything about).

[During testing] The toolbar contacts both MediaPlex (adfarm.mediaplex.com) and DoubleClick (ad.doubleclick.net), using at least the first as a page relocator. That means this relocator page at MediaPlex receives the whole URL that the toolbar calls. It receives all search terms, and in the POST (formular) data of the HTML header it will also receive any formular data you enter or that is transmitted automatically.

The mediaplex relocator also contains some long number that could be a GUID [Editor: A GUID is a Globally Unique Identifier]. The least thing those two advertisers could monitor is the keywords you search for on ebay; MediaPlex is using their cookie for the toolbar, so they can track you very easy. The worst thing that is - theoretically, not proven - possible would be much more access to your ebay account, including information about everything you bought or sold, for example."

Ok, so MediaPlex is doing something naughty with the eBay toolbar, and the spyware tools are flagging ANYTHING with MediaPlex as bad, even if it's just an ad cookie.

That's about the extent of it as I understand it.

PetiteFlower

10-13-2003, 06:25 PM

I knew there had to be SOME reason.....at least I get it now :)

Jason Dunn

10-15-2003, 07:21 PM

I forced this up the chain to Tribal Fusion then on to MediaPlex, and their response was "We don't do spyware" and pointed me to their privacy policy:

http://mediaplex.com/mplx_privacy.shtml

:roll: They don't seem to understand, or believe, that they've been targetted in various anti-spyware programs, but there's nothing more I can do to convince them of that.

I'm all for blocking legitimate spyware (programs) from getting onto your PC, but cookies are not spyware, and it's grossly irresponsible for the makers of Spybot and these other apps to take this approach. :evil:

ctmagnus

10-15-2003, 10:48 PM

the first time Spybot ever complained about Mediaplex on all the machines I use was when I clicked that link. maybe some of the banners here are distributed by region, by IP? :confused totally:

Jason Dunn

10-16-2003, 03:13 PM

the first time Spybot ever complained about Mediaplex on all the machines I use was when I clicked that link. maybe some of the banners here are distributed by region, by IP? :confused totally:

Correct. Mediaplex is serving up the Sprint campaign, but it's for the USA only, so you and I will never see it.

Gee Mont

10-17-2003, 04:09 AM

Cookies are used by every single ad company out there, so if you don't want to access a site that drops cookies, you'd better get off the Internet.

It's the cost of doing business on the Internet today. The only alternative would be for you subscribers to turn off ads if you don't want to see the Sprint ads that are served up by Mediaplex.

Cookies for most sites and all ad sites are blocked on my machine, but I don’t have access problems here. In fact, there is only one persistent cookie stored on my system. Occasionally, a cookie gets through my guard, then there is a process to prevent that from happening again. For the cookies I miss, there is a Window Washer program that cleans my Internet history frequently. If any Spyware does gleam what I’ve been up to, it will mostly get empty data.

A good firewall will block many banner, pop-up, and animated ads. There are a few other tricks you can try. I try to be very thorough and proactive with unwanted ads, thwarting advertisers is a hobby, but I can’t stop them all. As the man said, ads and cookies are part of the Internet now, for better or worse--but an educated consumer doesn’t have to accept every a company wants to show you.

Jason Dunn

10-17-2003, 04:30 AM

A good firewall will block many banner, pop-up, and animated ads. There are a few other tricks you can try. I try to be very thorough and proactive with unwanted ads, thwarting advertisers is a hobby, but I can’t stop them all.

A bold statement. So please explain to me why, as a non-subscriber, you're coming to this site, reading our content, eating up my bandwidth, and presumably not letting ads load, which is the only means I have of supporting this site and its operation?

Just curious. :?

JustinGTP

10-17-2003, 04:56 AM

PetiteFlower

10-17-2003, 05:44 AM

Uh oh, I knew that was gonna get Jason all angry :)

Just remember that A) lots of sites that use ads ARE sleazy about it and B) most people who block the ads either don't realize that they are taking away money from the site or just don't think of it in such personal terms....so be a little gentle with them! I understand why it upsets you but really people don't do this stuff PURPOSELY with the intent of screwing you, and besides they are a lot more likely to be open to what you have to say if you leave out the sarcasm and the accusations.....

What Jason was really trying to say is, if everyone blocked the ads here, this site would not be able to exist, and he tries really hard to advertise responsibly(no popups etc), so it would really help out the site if you would let them load here....even if you don't click on them, they generate money every time they load, so it is important :)

Jason Dunn

10-17-2003, 06:01 AM

He was just telling others how he avoids it, it doesnt mean that he doesnt want to come here!

I was simply asking a question, and I wasn't asking you - let him speak for himself please.

Jason Dunn

10-17-2003, 06:02 AM

Uh oh, I knew that was gonna get Jason all angry :)

I'm not angry - I'm asking him a question and waiting for his answer.

Gee Mont

10-17-2003, 12:21 PM

A bold statement. So please explain to me why, as a non-subscriber, you're coming to this site, reading our content, eating up my bandwidth, and presumably not letting ads load, which is the only means I have of supporting this site and its operation?

Oh, Lawd! Besieged again!

A very good question, though.

The only reason I block ads and cookies is because some collect personal information and browsing history. A Sprint ad does not bug me per se, but databases of personal data do.

The main purpose of a professional firewall isn’t blocking ads, but that is a feature that is comes with the package. There is an option to turn it off or on, so maybe what you’re saying is that, in fairness to you and your site, that feature shouldn’t be enabled. I default all security features to high, so what ever I do, it is not directed towards any one site or person. Even when it’s on, I still get some ads, as I said before, so it is not like I escape completely.

Do you only get credit when an ad loads into my browser? I’m curious there, I don’t know. Or does the firewall make me a freeloader? When my wife leaves the boob-tube room during a commercial break, does that make her a freeloader to the networks?

I do make a game of though. I say this not to make you angry, but in complete honesty. When ads get through the firewall, I see if there aren’t ways to stop them next time. Some ads still get through. And it bugs me. It really, really bugs me. Not because Sprint is offensive, but because they get through me defenses.

Just because I’m not a subscriber today does not mean I won’t be one later.

GoldKey

10-17-2003, 12:58 PM

Here is what I don't understand. Why are people so upset about ads on any particular page? Frankly, the only time I have ever found the ads bothersome on any site is when I inadvertantly hit an adult site that has tons of popups. Yes, they (whoever they is) could techinically amass all of this information about your surfing habit. While from a marketing perspective, this could be valuable, it is only valuable if because of that information they present you better ads that actually cause you to buy something. Assuming that you buy something only because it is useful to you, what is the harm, they did you a favor. Is this really any different than going into a retail store and buying a pair of pants and the salesperson seeing that and suggesting a pair of shoes to go with. Has anyone ever deomonstrated any more nefarious uses other than that being used in a practical application?

I understand some people highly value their privacy, and that is fine. But if you really want to protect your privacy so completely, there are a lot of other more effective things you should be doing, blocking ads on websites is pretty low on the list and I doubt everyone who cries foul about ads are putting in the efforts to do all the other things.

PetiteFlower

10-17-2003, 01:30 PM

Yes, the site gets paid for each time an ad successfully loads, that is where most of the income comes from.

I heard some TV guy said a while back that recording shows and skipping the commercials is like stealing....but it's not. The station gets paid for the time they give to the ad; they get paid every time the ad runs whether people are watching or not. Advertisers are not going to pull their ads from tv because some people don't watch them. Obviously enough people watch them that it's still profitable for them.

The internet is different because the companies CAN tell when people are blocking their ads, and of course it's better for them if they are only paying for each time someone actually LOOKS at one. But even if that technology existed for TVs, the only way that the stations would agree to sell time on that basis would be if ALL the advertisers got together and refused to buy ads any other way....and that's not gonna happen. The tv stations are powerful....individual web sites are not :(

Jason Dunn

10-17-2003, 04:52 PM

The only reason I block ads and cookies is because some collect personal information and browsing history. A Sprint ad does not bug me per se, but databases of personal data do.

A cookie cannot collect your name, your address, your phone number, or your shoe size. At most, a cookie can collect the same things that my Web logs can collect - your IP, your browser type, what time of day you visited, etc. If you're afraid of this type of data being collected, you should never visit any Web page, ANYWHERE, because any Webmaster that wants to know his traffic levels will track this stuff. It's all the same.

Now what a cookie CAN do is track you across multiple sites, so if you saw Sprint Ad #2 on my site, on Brighthand the cookie would say "Show him Sprint Ad #3 instead". That's it. You're just an anonymous computer to the ad server, not a person. And unless the advertising company were to somehow convince your ISP to give up your personal information by back-tracking your IP address and time of day to your home address, which is almost impossible (except for the RIAA it seems), there's really nothing to worry about. Your paranoia is illogical and not rooted in fact. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's the truth. There are things to be legitimately worried about (ActiveX spyware, viruses, etc.) but cookies are not one of those things. And neither are banner ads.

Do you only get credit when an ad loads into my browser? I’m curious there, I don’t know.

Yes, that's correct - if the ad doesn't load, I don't get credit for it, and I don't get paid. Clicks are even better of course, but the impression also counts. Advertisers buy impressions - so let's say that CNetX buys 10,000 banner impressions. That means their banner will load 10,000 times before the campaign ends. If you stop that banner from loading, an impression won't be used up, and you're effectively stopping that campaign from working.

When my wife leaves the boob-tube room during a commercial break, does that make her a freeloader to the networks?

Technically, yes, but I fast forward through most commercials too, so I won't throw stones here. :wink: The reality is, though, that the networks can't tell. TVs are dumb devices - US networks rely on a small percentage of Nielson families to even figure out which shows stay on the air. TV ads are sold on the premise of branding, because you can't click on an ad and buy a product. Internet advertising is different - because there's that interactivity, advertisers who don't get enough "clicks" won't renew their ads on my site (although a few understand the importance of branding). Now if you're not letting the ad even load, you're basically "invisible" as a visitor - you're taking from the site (bandwidth), but not giving anything back.

I do make a game of though. I say this not to make you angry, but in complete honesty. When ads get through the firewall, I see if there aren’t ways to stop them next time. Some ads still get through. And it bugs me. It really, really bugs me. Not because Sprint is offensive, but because they get through me defenses.

Since ads are the only way I have of supporting this site (for non-subscribers), reading the above statement makes me want to make a "game" out of stopping people like yourself from ever reading a word on this site. In fact, I'm going to see if there's a way to show a blank page to people who are using ad blockers. :mrgreen:

The thing that bothers me most about people like yourself is that you're saying to me "Jason, you and your team generate free content and spend many hours every day working on this site, and I like it enough to visit, but I don't like it enough to allow 60 KB of banner ads download over my unlimited Internet access."

It's hard not to get upset when someone cares so little for our work that they won't let a few extra graphics load.

DrtyBlvd

10-17-2003, 05:47 PM

...Since ads are the only way I have of supporting this site (for non-subscribers), reading the above statement makes me want to make a "game" out of stopping people like yourself from ever reading a word on this site. In fact, I'm going to see if there's a way to show a blank page to people who are using ad blockers.
...

You forgot to add that there might be an option for Subscribers to use 'ad blockers' :lol:

GoldKey

10-17-2003, 05:50 PM

Janak Parekh

10-17-2003, 05:59 PM

There is already an option for subscribers to turn off the ads. I have never tried it, but I assume it does just that.
Yes, it does. I turned it off one day because the ad server was down and every page load was timing out. You just see a blank space instead, and I'm pretty sure it doesn't contact Mediaplex, et. al. at all.

I turned it back on the day after, though -- I don't find the ads disturbing myself -- except that Sprint sees fit to run Samsung i500 ads... :lol:

--janak

Jason Dunn

10-17-2003, 06:22 PM

You forgot to add that there might be an option for Subscribers to use 'ad blockers' :lol:

Subscribers already have the ability to turn off ads, and that's a feature that they pay for - so there's no conflict there. :D

PetiteFlower

10-17-2003, 07:11 PM

Rather then a BLANK page, you might want to show a page with a message explaining why the page won't load.....otherwise the viewer will think the site is broken.

DrtyBlvd

10-17-2003, 07:15 PM

...or even better, "Subscribe Now" ads! :rofl:

Gee Mont

10-17-2003, 07:26 PM

Your paranoia is illogical and not rooted in fact. I don't mean to sound rude, but it's the truth. –Jason Dunn

I wouldn’t call it paranoia. While not all cookies track or collect information, though some third party cookies without a Compact Privacy Policy may, they do create a record of where you’ve been. Have you have looked at a system that never blocks any cookies? My mother-in-law had over 1200! 8O What harm 1200 cookies would really do to a system could be argued; however, they do create a browsing history.

Most people don’t know about blocking cookies; I mentioned to a colleague that she should set her Cookie Security level to High, but didn’t understand what I was talking about. I opened her folder to show all her cookies, hundreds and hundreds--and one from Victoria’s Secret. :mrgreen: Made her turn flame red. Cookies are great for spying on people.

What would a spy see on my system if I allowed cookies? I don’t mind telling: sites for books, ebooks, cats, and other odd assortments of stuff, nothing about naked teenage nymphos, and bozillians ad cookies. Typing in a UID and PWD is no trouble at all. Unless a specific cookie is doing something for me, I delete it and block it. That’s why there is only one persistent cookie. Even that, I don’t really need.

Should I even go into the index.dat debacle? Not really cookie or ad related, but along the same theme.

If you stop that banner from loading, an impression won't be used up, and you're effectively stopping that campaign from working….
It's hard not to get upset when someone cares so little for our work that they won't let a few extra graphics load. –Jason Dunn

This is nothing personal, you know. Cookies and ads were blocked long before I ever visited this site. I can’t block all the ads either. Sponsers.thoughtmedia.com has been getting through okay, but I’m at work and don’t have a personal firewall under my control. I also have a number of different systems available to me. At home there is an XP Pro box, blocked to the hilt, and a Linux box without ad blocking. I know because when I tested it this morning, I saw the Sprint ad.

You site isn’t unduly infested with ads, so I do feel kind of bad that you may not have the full potential from the ad campaigns. Other sites have lots of intrusions and pop ups, so I do what I have to do. These are the sites I love to zing. If there were a way to exclude your site from ad blocking, I’d do it. This is not a slight against what you do. The only option I can think of is visit your site, whenever possible, through my Linux box. That way, at least for the time being, you’ll receive the full benefit of your campaigns.

PetiteFlower

10-17-2003, 07:38 PM

Can't you just set this site as a "trusted site" on your firewall?

maikii

10-19-2003, 08:05 PM

Uh oh, I knew that was gonna get Jason all angry :)

What Jason was really trying to say is, if everyone blocked the ads here, this site would not be able to exist, and he tries really hard to advertise responsibly(no popups etc), so it would really help out the site if you would let them load here....even if you don't click on them, they generate money every time they load, so it is important :)

Do the advertisers know if people block ads or not?

I never had ads blocked from using "Spybot Search and Destroy". It doesn't try to block all ads--just spyware.

Gee Mont

10-19-2003, 11:09 PM

Can't you just set this site as a "trusted site" on your firewall?

“Trusting” a site wouldn't make any noticeable effect on what advertisings gets through, at least on the firewall I use. It's all or nothing, pretty much. There are three levels:

1. Off
2. Block pop-up and animated ads
3. Block pop-up, animated, and banner ads

Different software may have different options. It may not be fair to honest sites, since adverting is important for revenue, but allowing sites total freedom to plant spyware, cookies, and adverting isn't rational. Some sites might depend on the revenue from Spyware. So what is rational?

1. Block nothing
2. Block Spyware, but allow cookies and ads
3. Block Spyware, cookies, and allow ads
4. Block Spyware, cookies, pop-up ads, but allow other ads
5. Block everything you can

I'm not sure what the correct answer is, how Jason will answer, or how other sites would answer. However, I believe most sites would answer with their own policy. A site that plants Spayware would probably have a rational argument on way the dangers of Spyware is overrated by paranoid privacy aficionados. Who is to say they are wrong?

davidspalding

10-20-2003, 04:47 AM

Can't you just set this site as a "trusted site" on your firewall?

I can. I tell IE to bypass WebWasher for this site. And I can tell PopUp Manager (a separate app which works better than WebWasher on popups and popunders) the same thing.

I find the ads at PPCthoughts to be far less troublesome than other sites. I haven't read this entire thread, but from my perspective, it's much ado about little. Let Jason get some pageviews from banner ads.

JohnnyFlash

04-05-2004, 04:02 PM

I just wish EVERYTHING on this stinking rock wasn't always about money...sigh

Aerestis

04-06-2004, 12:31 AM

Sometimes I click ads, I never buy on the other end because I don't have the ability too, but I definitely like having ads here. I don't know, usually they interest me. I like knowing what's available.

Jason Dunn

04-06-2004, 07:56 AM

I just wish EVERYTHING on this stinking rock wasn't always about money...sigh

As long as we need money to survive, we'll have to earn it somehow, so it's a neccesary evil.