Palm This, Palm That, Toshiba Might Throw in Their Hat?

[Jason Dunn]

The three most-discussed stories of the past week ("Palm Tungsten 3 Reviews", "Why I Miss My Palm III", and "Toshiba: 'The PocketPC market is pretty much dead.' ") all have something in common: the Palm camp is moving fast, and the Pocket PC camp is not.<br /><br />For the longest time, back in the days of the Palm-size PC, Windows CE-based PDAs have had hardware that pushes the envelope. While Palm devices languished at a puny 160 x 160, Pocket PCs had a mighty 320 x 240 resolution, resulting in a much nicer display. Then Sony went to 320 x 320...and the Pocket PC stayed the same. The new Palm Tungsten 3 offers 320 x 480 resolution and instant landscape mode. For those keeping score, that's double the resolution of the Pocket PC. When I look at Palm units with that resolution, there's no denying it: the crispness of the text, and quite often the quality of the screens, is a marked improvement over what we have in the Pocket PC camp. Since back in late 2001, Pocket PC owners have been begging Microsoft for a bump in resolution. We're now coming up on the end of 2003, and still we sit at 320 x 240. And when you consider that Windows Mobile 2003 just came out a few months ago, given Microsoft's release cycle, it will be late 2004 before we see anything changed. How did Microsoft fail to see this coming when their users have been yelling about it for three years?<br /><br />And performance? Don't even get me started on performance - the Pocket PC OS is more flexible and powerful than the Palm OS, but as anyone who has used a Zire 71 can tell you, the responsiveness of it will put any Pocket PC to shame. Remember though that DOS was fast too - when Palm finally releases a true multi-tasking OS, will they be able to maintain that snappy performance? We'll see what happens.<br /><br />While there's been some consolidation and thinning about the Palm ranks (Handera faded away, Handspring is being acquired by Palm), it's obvious that Palm is no longer sitting on their hands, riding out the popularity of their OS as they once did. The Pocket PC camp has been chipping away at Palm's market share, and in some countries such as Australia, the Pocket PC has taken the lead. HP is innovating hard, but they seem to be the only truly creative OEM on the Pocket PC side of things, while companies like Gateway and JVC can't seem to commit to a course of action. Meanwhile, Palm, Sony, and Handspring have been releasing new devices with hardware that pushes the envelope of mobile computing.<br /><br />The Pocket PC once held the crown as the most innovative and cutting-edge platform in both hardware and software, and I want to see it re-take that crown from Palm. Microsoft needs to drop the hammer and make the next version of Windows Mobile a tangible improvement over what we have now - a leap like Windows XP was over Windows ME, not a Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE, which is what it feels like we've been seeing for the past two versions. I grow tired of hearing "We didn't have the resource to implement that feature...". Tap into some of that multi-billion dollar war chest and make it happen! Pocket PC OEMs need to get creative, win the hearts and minds of consumers with sexy and innovative designs, and make Pocket PC hardware the most cutting-edge PDA platform out there.<br /><br />If it doesn't happen, those of us on the Pocket PC side of the fence may just grow tired of feeling like second-class mobile device citizens and look to another platform with a stronger vision for the future. No, the sky is not falling in on the Pocket PC camp, but Palm has sprinted ahead in some key areas, and Microsoft and most of their OEM partners seem to be still strolling along...not realizing that the race is now on.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

I've said it a million times, I love my Axim. It's the first Pocket PC I've actually liked enough to keep (after my Maestro and E330 which are both in the boxes in my close). But the truth of the matter is, the amount of innovation going on at Palm/Sony/Handspring is astonishing when you compare it to what we have over here.

I mean, does any OEM for PPC's have any plans to push the envelope with PPC hardware the way Sony did with the UX-50? That handheld is not only incredible, it's revolutionary. Bright, high-resolution screen, camera, dual wireless, nice usable keyboard, rotating display...

Even Palm, with the Tungsten T3 has, what looks like, a winner.

Pocket PC OEM's are falling into the same trap the Palm OEM's did. Thinking that the devices will sell themselves. Frankly, unless something desperately changes, I don't see a need to move to a new Pocket PC.

Now going back to a Palm device? At this point, even that seems like a more feasible move.

[Jeff Kirvin]

"This is what I have been saying..."

I agree with Jason (heck, I'm already using a Palm Zire 71 as my primary PDA), and if anything, he understates the problem.

PalmOS 6 is going to be a bigger jump than most people expect. I've heard that it's more advanced and more elegant architecturally than CE 4.2, upon which WM2003 is based. The graphics engine is lifted straight out of BeOS, the OS will be fully memory protected and multithreaded, and the ability to transparently roam from WiFi to Bluetooth/GPRS and back without the user noticing the change of connection will be HUGE. Microsoft is going to have more than just a screen resolution problem next spring.

And therein lies much of the problem. Microsoft still doesn't seem to care about the Pocket PC as a platform. Gates and Ballmer don't use Pocket PCs at all. Microsoft seems to be betting the mobile side of the company on the one-two punch of Smartphone and Tablet PC. I own a Smartphone; it is great, and all the PDA many people would need. There's no reason to own a "dumb" cell phone and a Zire 21 if you can have a Smartphone instead.

But I'm a writer, and I write best on the go. Try as I might, I can't fit a Tablet PC in my pocket to take everywhere, and I'm not writing a novel in T9 on a Smartphone. A PDA with a detatchable keyboard is perfect for me, and I suspect I'm not alone. Microsoft is neglecting this part of the market, and Palm is playing right to them.

Is it a small market, relative to phone/laptop people? Certainly. But also a vocal, tech-savvy, influential market. Does Microsoft really want to drive us away and make us Palm customers? Because that's what's happening.

[jpaq]

Say it Pastor Dunn.
You are preaching to the choir!!!!

Microsoft must release the demons of indecision and pursue a higher calling. A higher class of portable computing. And Microsoft, with their licensing fees, and the OEM's with their hardware must continue to be conscious of the almighty dollar.

They must all innovate. Not perpetrate!

Can I get a witness?!?

And all the children said,

"AAAAAAAAAA--------Mennnnnnnnn!!!!!!"


:werenotworthy:

[mangochutneyman]

Well I certainly think the h6000 Series and h4355 are innovative. Also regarding the screen resolution, I agree with others who have said that perhaps Microsoft has intentionally limited this in order to prevent PPC sales from eating away from its more lucartive notebook business. As these two segments converge, it would make sense that Microsoft would want to promote its more profitable market. Unfortunately, it doesn't seem handhelds are as important to Micrsoft as its their businesses...

[raddax]

Well put, Jason. I have owned 4 Pocket PC's, but I will not buy another one until the resolution issue is addressed. I can't believe that I now look at a Palm device (the T3) with envy and irritation that my favorite mobile computers no longer measure up. In fact, all the money and time that I have spent on Pocket PC's the past 3 years in seems foolish considering the fact that I really don't have all that much more than I did with my first iPaq 3650.

I hope Microsoft gets a clue soon.

[dh]

There is no question that the lack of innovation by the PPC manufacturers is going to lose them business, in fact it already is.

When WM2003 arrived, I was looking forward to seeing exciting new devices that would make me want to trade from my Axim. As it happened, although some new PPCs, like the 2210 are nice, there is nothing that has come close to tempting me.

The Toshiba e800 looks to be a possible buy. Of course, Tosh had a reputation for poor support when they were committed to the platform. I dread to think how it will be if they are planning on getting out of this market.

My Axim does everything I currently need and I will upgrade it to give it a new lease of life. My plan is to sit tight and see what happens next year, when WM2004 and POS 6.0 (those BEos guys must have been doing something since Palm took them over) come on the market.

I hope we see good things from PPC. With the new products from Sony, Garmin, that Zodiac thingy, Treo 600 and pa1mOne (give me strength!) the POS fans are having all the fun right now.

[CTSLICK]

Hammer it home Jason!

The Sony UX-50 and the Palm T3 are winning hardware designs for which PocketPC does not have an answer. Not totally any way. But, as you stated Jason, the point is the difference in the rate of innovation. I mean really...how many ways can HP repackage the iPaq with varying pieces of the same basic features. And we know that its unlikely that Dell is going to lead the way in terms of innovation. Everyone else seems to be shuffling their feet not wanting to break the mold.

I'm not sure how much of this goes on MS and how much goes on the OEM's. Are the MS guidelines for what "is" a PocketPC too strict? Are the OEM's just being slow?

If Citrix releases a Palm OS client my next hardware decision could be a lot tougher. That's it, one piece of software keeping me from looking outside the PPC camp.

[theone3]

Agreed on all but one account

You sum up my thoughts on the issue to incredible detail. Even the australia thing was running through my mind (which could be because I live there/here)

There is, however, one major point I would like to make about palm(one/source/spring/pilot)
While there's been some consolidation and thinning about the Palm ranks (Handera faded away, Handspring is being acquired by Palm), it's obvious that Palm is no longer sitting on their hands, riding out the popularity of their OS as they once did.

I'm not so sure about them ever sitting on their hands, and the handspring aquisition was not at all unnatrual

A REAALY short history of handspring
Handspring was started by a bunch of ex-palm people from high ranks when palm decided to keep away from the mobile phone sector; the plan of HS was to possibly merge into palm (after generating enough funds through handheld sales to make a convergence device) or sell convergence devices as a stand-alone company. Going with the former was no big surprise.

Palm(one's) name change shows the companys new commitment to convergence, and the HS takeover was an example of action taken to allow swift up-take.

As with any company, there is a huge re-organization process to be done when it is split and mergered. The company, rather than sitting on it's hands, was preparing to come-back with a blast, and that they surely did.

There is no doubt in my mind that if I were to buy a PDA today, it would be the T|3. It's unfortunate, but it's true.

Palm has made enough moves to be able to take back the relatively minute (don't knock me, Aussies, I'm a melbournian ;)) Australian market by the end of this year.

oh.. and I agree about handera too ;)

[hopeful797]

having now held the palm t|3 and played with it a bit, its really nothing special and the OS is so primitive, its hard to imagine going back. the stiff slider is a pain in the butt too. so there's still room for PPC to make a comeback. but after OS 6, who knows?

[scottmag]

We're now coming up on the end of 2003, and still we sit at 320 x 240. .... How did Microsoft fail to see this coming when their users have been yelling about it for three years?

I suspect that's only partly rhetorical. MS certainly didn't fail to see that a core group of its vocal supporters were clamoring for these improvements. But they have to act pragmatically. They either want to aggressively compete in standalone consumer handhelds or they do not. If it is the enterprise market they are after they only need PocketPC as an add-on to their enterprise-class software offerings. The tight integration will be the selling power, not the specs. Palm behaved similarly when they believed familiarity (i.e., all handhelds are called "Palm Pilots") and lower cost would sell their devices and innovation was not necessary.

I think the innovation on the Palm side is the result of the OS license allowing for so much OEM customization and Sony aggressively modifying it and bringing new ideas to market. In contrast how much does MS restrict what OEMs can do with the OS? It's not necessarily that one strategy is better than the other. Look at PC hardware where Apple maintains total control while it is wide open on the Wintel side. Who "won" there? Not perfectly analogous I realize.


Microsoft and most of their OEM partners seem to be still strolling along...not realizing that the race is now on.

Who can make it happen? If MS retains too much control then they have to move more aggressively and assertively or else they are restricting innovation. If they OEMs already have some leeway that they are not taking advantage of then they are simply milking the market for sales and doing little to advance it. I thought when Dell entered the PPC market that it was a blessing and a curse. It's great for consumers to get low-cost hardware, but in the end it is bad for the market if that fierce competition eliminates the manufacturers that would have brought out innovative new products.

So if the race is on who's holding the reins?

Scott

[entropy1980]

I am not completely jumping ship quite yet but I ordered a Tungsten T3. Screen resolution was a big factor as was price (up until now to get a Palm with that kind of resolution required big bucks for a Sony). Now with comparable Office support built in I think Palm is solidifying their position. As some one who still plays around with BEOS, I can say that if Palm doesn't botch the transition MS will be in a heap of trouble if Windows Mobile 2004 doesn't come out by say April and have some big enhancements: my wish list?

1. Higher screen resolutions.
2. Better Office support (come on MS you make Office it's embarassing that a 3rd party can make as good if not better software to work with it)
3. Flashy hardware.... if I see one more Pocket PC with 4 buttons with a NAV pad in the middle I will scream!

Most of all we need another Ipaq 3600, something to shake things up and announce they are here in the handheld market for the longhaul not more of the same!

[ux4484]

I have played with a zire 71 multiple times, and the quickness of the PIM stuff is what grabs me every time. Now with the Tungsten E having pretty much the same specs (sans camera) for a better price, it will be a hard sell now for someone just buying their first PDA to decide between an X5 basic and an "E" (IMO). I'll take it a step further, if the "E" had a full size screen with virtual graffiti area for about the same price, I'd have to nail my wallet to the floor to stop me from buying one (I like the T3....just TOOOO MUCH $$$). I've found that while I really like my Axim, I only occasionaly use it to multitask (because multitasking more than two or three apps slows down the PIM so much). I agree that multitasking speed on OS6 will be a make-or-break issue for those Palms when they come out, 'cause if it's not as fast or faster than a PPC....you'll never convert anyone back from PPC (who needs to multitask) to Palm to take the bait (what's the point?).
I've got (now) a pretty darn good and stable setup with my Axim, keyboard, and wifi card.....I'm clearly set unitl a new POS or PPC version comes out......but next time I think it will be a much harder value for dollar decision.
Oh.....and kudos to Palm for including Doc's 2 Go with their new devices......a real downer that Sony is charging 700 smackers for a UX50 without it 8O

[KH]

This is really an extension of the discussion about the Tapwave gaming device discussion - no matter how much of a Pocket PC Evangelist one is, bragging rights are eroding quickly, depending on how someone might want to use their handheld.

I don't think this is an issue with overlapping laptop/Handheld functionality and price. There absolutely are reasons why the form factor is high-order bit. I still haven't developed any interest in making my cell phone larger or my Pocket PC smaller - I think my IPAQ 2210 is the best ever. I haven't discovered any battery problems I can't work around, performance is good enough for real-time writing-to-text note taking with Calligrapher, movies play smoothly, and I find the UI very comfortable, thank you.

But I really am developing Pixel envy. I never thought I would say this, but I may find myself watching OS 6-based devices very closely - heck, I'd be able to take all of my Palm Digital Media books with me, and that's where my real $$ investment is!

[egoz]

Like any growing and living hegemony, Microsoft is adapting.
And, wisely so, it is doing so slowly.

In the very ways that their Windows OS has "acquired" many of the best features of competing systems, so shall Microsoft's Mobile OS. These include attributes like efficiency, ease-of-learning-to-operate, and (of course) aesthetics. For example, Longhorn is the culmination of many, many years of *careful* hegemony-management -- hunting for features, and bringing them into the fold.

Yes, Windows could have suddenly transformed in one grand mutation. Instead, it is doing so gradually: with a mind towards acquiring the best attributes of our competitors in the field, but improving upon them in the process. Microsoft's Mobile OS is a little slow, is a little clunky, and is a little behind -- Yes, this is true, but...

Polemics are a great fire under developments' hind quarters.
However, never don't lose faith in the power of intelligence-driven evolution. It happens with a furiously hot, but slow, speed.

That whole tortoise and the hare thing.

.robert adams

[Dom]

TOTALLY agree with the article. Maybe the Pocket PC is more aimed at business and ... they need boring standardised hardware. Forget Palm a little, perhaps the threat is more from the likes of the Sony P800. Have you tried it ? Awesome device. Cant wait to get the P810.
Dom

[dh]

TOTALLY agree with the article. Maybe the Pocket PC is more aimed at business and ... they need boring standardised hardware. Forget Palm a little, perhaps the threat is more from the likes of the Sony P800. Have you tried it ? Awesome device. Cant wait to get the P810.
Dom
It looks as though the P900 (the name they ended up with) is going to be available via Orange in the UK pretty soon.

I got to play with my son's P800 a while ago, an while I kinda liked it, not enough to buy one. The P900 is supposed to have a much better screen and some other improvements so it will be interesting to check out.

I don't know when the P900 will arrive here. The 800 is still hard to get.

[boldbidder]

I recently ditched my PPCPE for the two fisted approach. I now use the SE T610 and UX50. After a few weeks I'm nearly in handheld nirvana. The UX screen is simply FABULOUS! Also, the T610 is Class 10 GPRS whereas the PPCPE was class 8, my data speeds are MUCH faster. The thing that attracted me away from the PPC camp was the lack of a device with a thumbboard. I right many quick e-mails and IMs throughout my day and try as I might was never able to find a pen based input system taht sufficed. Coming from being a heavy Blackberry user once upon a time I sorely missed my thumbboard. Sony got it just right with the clamshell form facter so the device has a very small foot print in your pocket. The upcoming 4350 looks like it could be a winner, but I'm frightened that the length of the device will all but preclude any chance at pocketablility. My ideal device would be a UX style form facter PPCPE supporting BT, Wifi, and Class 10 or 12 GPRS....... :lol:

Anyways, that's my 2 cents.

[racerx]

Agree that the screen on the T3 is finally something that Palm should have come out with a while ago. Instant landscape is something that MS should have come out with a long time ago. But for me, all of those things don't mean anything if I can't run my multiple apps at the same time. When OS6 comes out, Microsoft BETTER have a counterpoint or they WILL lose people to it (assuming it does what its supposed to).

When people talk about apps opening quickly, etc. on a Palm, remember that there isn't much else going on on a Palm. When I load my task manager and calendar and then minimize them, my 5555 is just as quick for me to jump around to multiple apps. Is the initial load that takes a little while, but I can deal with that.

Now that Microsoft has, what I call "stabilized" their OS with WM2003, they now need to step back up to the plate and come out with something that will keep the PPC from "dying" as has been predicted. If they don't, it won't be the PDA that dies, but just maybe the PPC.

[theone3]

Like any growing and living hegemony, Microsoft is adapting.
And, wisely so, it is doing so slowly.

In the very ways that their Windows OS has "acquired" many of the best features of competing systems, so shall Microsoft's Mobile OS. These include attributes like efficiency, ease-of-learning-to-operate, and (of course) aesthetics. For example, Longhorn is the culmination of many, many years of *careful* hegemony-management -- hunting for features, and bringing them into the fold.

Yes, Windows could have suddenly transformed in one grand mutation. Instead, it is doing so gradually: with a mind towards acquiring the best attributes of our competitors in the field, but improving upon them in the process. Microsoft's Mobile OS is a little slow, is a little clunky, and is a little behind -- Yes, this is true, but...

Polemics are a great fire under developments' hind quarters.
However, never don't lose faith in the power of intelligence-driven evolution. It happens with a furiously hot, but slow, speed.

That whole tortoise and the hare thing.

.robert adamsI would tend to disagree here, if only because palm came out with hi-res later, but did it well; multitasking? hopefully done well; VG? done well.

My point here is that palm has released many features after the pocketPC, but usually far better implemented.

I prefer to think of it as a case of two tortoises :lol:

[lapchinj]

… How did Microsoft fail to see this coming when their users have been yelling about it for three years?

I’ve seen that when a technology is founded and starts to become big Microsoft wakes up drops billions of dollars into that technology in order to play catch up and eventually take control of it (remember when the internet passed Microsoft by). However people play the political end of technology Microsoft has the dollars and focus to make technologies come true build them almost overnight – if they want to. Anyone who has used Microsoft’s tools can see that. Let’s hope the T3 is Microsoft’s wake up call.


Remember though that DOS was fast too - when Palm finally releases a true multi-tasking OS…

I don’t think that a typical user cares whether his PDA’s OS is multitasking or not. Microsoft’s OS is multitasking and people didn’t flock to the PPC platform because of it. People need applications and I think that PPC platform has them. The apps together with the screen resolution and GUI front end is what sold the PPC not the multitasking. Look how many people still run Windows 98 (and 95) both Dos based shells. With the T3 we will probably see a lot more developers put out stunning apps for Palm like they do on the PPC (AF, PI, Resco, Sprite etc.).


…those of us on the Pocket PC side of the fence may just grow tired of feeling like second-class mobile device citizens and look to another platform …

I don’t think we would go over en-mass. The PPC platform is still solid (apps formost). I do think that more of us would buy Palms as a second PDA if it’s as nice as it looks. If applications come out that use the qualities of the T3 we might see converts or people bouncing between the two platforms like I bounce back and forth between AF and PI. My current second PDA is a Sharp SL 5000 series PDA which has a GUI based front end. And even though I like Linux much better than the Palm OS I would still make the switch if the apps are there. No apps for the Sharp is a major reason why it’s not my #1 PDA choice now.

Jeff - :soapbox:

[Dom]

Palm is committed to Palm. Is Microsoft as committed to Pocket PC ? I suspect it is more of a sideline whereas Palm has everything to lose.
Dom

[CTSLICK]

Like any growing and living hegemony, Microsoft is adapting.
And, wisely so, it is doing so slowly.

In the very ways that their Windows OS has "acquired" many of the best features of competing systems, so shall Microsoft's Mobile OS. These include attributes like efficiency, ease-of-learning-to-operate, and (of course) aesthetics. For example, Longhorn is the culmination of many, many years of *careful* hegemony-management -- hunting for features, and bringing them into the fold.

Yes, Windows could have suddenly transformed in one grand mutation. Instead, it is doing so gradually: with a mind towards acquiring the best attributes of our competitors in the field, but improving upon them in the process. Microsoft's Mobile OS is a little slow, is a little clunky, and is a little behind -- Yes, this is true, but...

Polemics are a great fire under developments' hind quarters.
However, never don't lose faith in the power of intelligence-driven evolution. It happens with a furiously hot, but slow, speed.

That whole tortoise and the hare thing.

.robert adams

I think understand your point but I disagree. Evolution is fine and all but its time for a little revolution again. Palm tried to evolve slowly and carefully and got run over, even by some of their own licensees (Sony).

The improvements that most of us are looking for are not risky, outlandlish or even pushing the bounds of technology. They are just LONG overdue. Kick the tires, light the fires...LET'S GO!

[Foo Fighter]

Excellent synopsis, Jason. I agree with many of your points.

I believe the PDA market has already reached the saturation point. There are too many vendors competing for the same piece of pie in a relatively small market segment. And I suspect we are going to see even more attrition ahead. One of my 2003 predictions was that Toshiba would leave the PDA market, which looks to be the case, and I expect Sony to follow Toshiba out the door next year when they shift their focus on the new PSP gaming handheld.

Maybe I'm being too doom and gloom, but my gut tells me there are dark days ahead for the handheld market. We have a serious problem with declining sales. August saw a 30% drop in handheld sales. Will PDAs become marginalized by Smartphones and inexpensive laptops? Are we PDA fans using a "Dinosaur" technology? Over the years Palm and PPC fans have clawed away at each others throats over which technology is superior, and it looks like that conflict blinded everyone to what was happening around us all the time: The PDA market was collapsing.

[ucfgrad93]

And performance? Don't even get me started on performance - the Pocket PC OS is more flexible and powerful than the Palm OS, but as anyone who has used a Zire 71 can tell you, the responsiveness of it will put any Pocket PC to shame.

This has been a big complaint of mine. I own the hp1910 while my wife uses a Sony T665. Using the same applications (Palm Reader Pro & Laraidan bible software) her Sony is way more responsive than my hp.

I do see some good from the PPC side. The size of the devices is much smaller than it used to be. (Remember the Casio E-125, EM-500) and the price for most PPCs are way more reasonable. It wasn't that long ago when the cheapest PPC retailed for $500. And for all those that like to bash Palm, I doubt you would have seen either of these improvements without Palm's influence. (Same for Palm. Color, mp3, and other improvements were driven by competition from Microsoft.)

[caywen]

GET OFF YOUR ASSES MICROSOFT.

PocketPC has gone from being the technology leader to the technology that stifles innovation.

Didn't I say it before? Every PocketPC is pretty much exactly the same thing, give or take an SD/CF slot and/or WiFi/BT feature.

What PocketPC needs yesterday:

* Quad VGA resolution 480x640 - support for higher
* Resolution independent development guidelines
* Keep memory requirements level
* Real application closure
* Brain-dead wireless setup - WM2003 still doesn't cut it

[Dom]

but my gut tells me there are dark days ahead for the handheld market.
Handheld or just Pocket PC ? Check out Symbian handset sales. They are exploding. Symbian shares are rocketing. All the latest Motorola Symbian handsets sold out in hours. It is maybe only Pocket PC that is stalling/shrinking. Action needs to be taken now or it will stay a niche player. The Symbian devices have the best hardware makers (Sony basically) and the best distribution channels. They also have a natural handheld audience - phone users. I'm hoping smartphone will save the day.
Dom

[RobertCF]

I'm sorry, but every time I see someone with a Sony or a Palm I just laugh at them. It's a lame OS and the devices are just as lame. My friend's Echo has a turning radius that my Mustang GT can't touch, but that's not what I want or need out of a car. I want exactly what I bought the Mustang for: speed, power, looks, comfort...all of which it has in spades. The same for my PocketPC. The screens on the Zire and newer Palms just aren't that big a difference--and my vision is just fine, thank you. And as far as swivel this and flip out that, those are toys. There's a point beyond which a PDA ceases to be a PDA and becomes some other breed. Heck, even MP3 players are coming out with multimedia displays on them, and you can even do some PIM stuff on them. So what does it make them? Their sound is a heck of a lot better than any PDA. The bottom line is this: there's room for all of it, so why beat the dead horse about "PocketPC needs to do this" or "Palm needs to do that"? There are as many "ideal PDAs" as there are opinions. What you find indispensible (camera, the laughable thumb board, etc.) I probably find a waste of space, weight, and money.
If you look at how the two main platforms have advanced you'll see the predictable leapfrog effect. Palm started the craze and eventually PocketPCs came on the scene and jumped out ahead in capabilities because they had the time to carefully weigh what would grab attention and be useable and somewhat affordable. And it worked. At that time everyone was asking the very same questions we're asking now about PocketPCs: Why aren't the Palm-oids waking up and creating machines that are more on par with PocketPCs (hi-rez color, sound, speed, storage)? Well, duh, that's what they were doing all this time we thought they were dormant. You can bet that's what we're building up to yet again on the PocketPC market. Although I still see no sense in toys like cameras, etc. being stuffed into my PDA, some of you like that minutae, so there's a market to be waded into. You're probably the same ones who bought a silly digital phone with a camera on it, too. Personally, I want my PDA to do PDA work and do it well. If I want a camera then I'll stick with a real 5mp camera.
Some consumers are like little babies who coo and grab at the next shiney object that passes before their eyes. And that's what marketing plays on. So, let the Sony's and Palms have their day. They have their place and more power to them and their patrons. You're kidding yourself if you don't think the PocketPC arena isn't preparing for their next leap. I doubt seriously Dell and others would have gone into the market if they thought there was no future in it. I do believe that a lot of hardware advances were waiting for WinCE .net to come out so manufacturers would have an idea what would be supported. First step was clearly just to get something on the market--get their presence felt. Now comes the evolution. But as far as I'm concerned (having played in Palm's sandbox before) there's nothing about the other OS's that touch Windows Mobile--and that's the most important part of the PDA to me. The rest is just hardware.

[SandersP]

"This is what I have been saying..."

I agree with Jason (heck, I'm already using a Palm Zire 71 as my primary PDA), and if anything, he understates the problem.

PalmOS 6 is going to be a bigger jump than most people expect. I've heard that it's more advanced and more elegant architecturally than CE 4.2, upon which WM2003 is based. The graphics engine is lifted straight out of BeOS, the OS will be fully memory protected and multithreaded, and the ability to transparently roam from WiFi to Bluetooth/GPRS and back without the user noticing the change of connection will be HUGE.


Gimme a break, with all those feature the OS will crawls on its knees. BeOS maybe known for threading, but it is not known for speedy graphics. The faster game graphic is, the closer it needs to bare metal.

And please remember the last BeIA attempt was a great flunky. (resource hoag, slow, and nobody cares) Appliance OS it ain't. I believe OS 6.0 when I see it. OS 5.0 was tauted as PPC2000 killer, but it still couldn't do half what it can, let alone compete with WM2k3.

Big screen? It's great and Somebody better hurry up and comes up with VGA and standard 8hrs battery performance, plus the WM2k4.

PS. It's amazing nobody comment about Palm simplicity anymore, now that T3 has messier UI with pop up and icons all over the place and worst than ever system utilities.

[Foo Fighter]

* Quad VGA resolution 480x640

I doubt you will ever see this. VGA screen resolutions would annihilate battery life in the blink of an eye. One of the reasons why Sony's top of the line Clie models, and the new Tungsten T3, have such poor batter life is due to the high resolution 320x480 display, which consumes a lot more power than the Pocket PC's native 240x320 resolution. I don't see the logic in having PPCs with 2 hour battery life, just to "one up" Palm.

[Dom]

I'm sorry, but every time I see someone with a Sony or a Palm I just laugh at them. It's a lame OS and the devices are just as lame. My friend's Echo has a turning radius that my Mustang GT
LOL I have the Ferrari 348TS but I carry the Sony P800 by choice. Why ? Well it is good at everything. Pocket PCs are far more powerful but to date they have not impressed me as phones. You could probably beat me in a straight line shoot-out ;0) ... but most roads have bends in them :)
Dom

[SandersP]

* Quad VGA resolution 480x640

I doubt you will ever see this. VGA screen resolutions would annihilate battery life in the blink of an eye. One of the reasons why Sony's top of the line Clie models, and the new Tungsten T3, have such poor batter life is due to the high resolution 320x480 display, which consumes a lot more power than the Pocket PC's native 240x320 resolution. I don't see the logic in having PPCs with 2 hour battery life, just to "one up" Palm.

Not really. According to FCC filing, the e800 will use Sharp CG screen, similar technology as the one in SLC 700-760. Both unit has far better battery life than T3.

Of course the secret is, CG technology is so new, only Sharp currently supply that in mass quantity. Not even Sony has that.

[shawnc]

Didn't I say it before? Every PocketPC is pretty much exactly the same thing, give or take an SD/CF slot and/or WiFi/BT feature.

Or you can get it all for the price of a laptop running W/XP. For the past 3 years every PPC has been about comprimise. You look at a PPC and you see your perfect device, if only had __________ (dual slots, better form factor, wireless, etc).

All the talk is about the higher priced Tungsten but the lower priced item is the one I see cleaning the PPC's clock. I really like my Axim, but I often feel as though I've been sold a bill of goods. I have sank sooooo much money into this device to get it to do what should be a part of the base package (just dropped another $35 on textmaker).

I'm ready to buy a new "toy" and my preference is a clamshell phone with an SD slot for mp3/ebook functionality. Whether I get a new phone or PDA, I seriously doubt that I will purchase a PPC. I've pretty much made up my mind that I'm going to (damn it pains me to say this) Palm.

M$, you blew it! You took a lifelong fan and drove them to Palm. Good job guys.

[Dom]

Don't take offence but ... maybe all the people here are not the type of users that Microsoft is now targetting. Originally they needed you to enthuse and promote but if they're aiming at businesses rather than consumers ... I've felt this for ages. But I am deluded and high on caffeine/pepsi/nicotine.
Dom

[bodstrup]

I have had an IPAQ 5450 for about 7 months, and I hate it more and more as time passes.

It is now being repaired for the second time. The first time, the screen went blank, the second i would not charge any more unless i put pressure on the charger cable - had to bend it upwards to get it going.

It has never charged when connected to the HP foldable keyboard - again unless I pressed really hard at the lower part of the IPAQ.

When turning Bluetooth on and off, I will get 'not enough memory' for device driver errors, forcing me to do a reset.

I am going through several daily resets and a hard-reset about every month when the thing locks up.

One thing it does do very well is Tom Tom Navigator in my car. The screen is big an bright (but voice volume very low), the application is working very well and it just takes me where I need to go.

Unfortunately, as I use a Bluetooth GPS, I have to do a reset about half the times I enable Tom Tom, because of lack of device driver memory.

PocketInformant is far better than DateBook or any other Palm application I have seen.
Mail attachments also work better - but there is support for Office document attachments etc. on the Clie with Clie Mail.

I have however, bought a Clie UX-50 and love it. When not using WLAN, the battery life is much better, the keyboard is excelent and I can connect to Bluetooth and WLAN spots as often as i like without having to do a reset.

Video quality is far superior to what I have seen on my 5450 - 25 fps at 320x240 with no glitches and perfect sound (with headphones).

The 480x320 screen gives me really crisp fonts, I like as much info on the screen as possible, on the PPC small fonts look horrible because of the low res.

I can work with the Clie placed on a table, the PPC is very hard to operate unless you hold it.

AeroPlayer MP3 player is perfect and cheap.

If I did not had to worry about thieves, I would keep the PPC permanently mounted in the car and forget about the other apps. Maybe I will sell it and get the cheapest Bluetooth PPC I can get for Tom Tom Navigator.

I do not understand the aggression I see at places around here against Palm. They started the business and have build it with innovation. The PPC does some jobs better, the Palm is better for other jobs.

For the non technical a Palm is probably the way to go, but I do realise that you can do more on a PPC - and the memory lay-out btw. is a lot simpler.

Regards
Michael

[Vincent M Ferrari]

For the past 3 years every PPC has been about comprimise. You look at a PPC and you see your perfect device, if only had __________ (dual slots, better form factor, wireless, etc).

Wow. Talk about hitting the nail on the head.

Well said!

[apeguero]

True, PPC needs to improve in certain areas as well as improve it's ergonomics. But I don't think Palm is better then PPC yet. Maybe OS6 might change that but until then I prefer PPC.

Right now I'm happy with my 2215. Although I would've been happier if it had 128mb of RAM or more, plus sizeable windows, 4" screen, cell phone capabilities, built in WIFI, slide out keyboard...

What do I mean by sizeable windows? Imagine being able to have the calculator opened in a smaller window on top of, let's say, Pocket Money or a spreadsheet, or even two documents, one on top of the other, you know, like you do in windows.

It be interesting to see what that rumored iPaq h6000 series will be like. Maybe it will be that device we've been waiting for.

Until now I was waiting on the new Treo 600 to replace my Sanyo 5300 Sprint phone, but now I'm going to have to hold off. Know why? That Treo 600 will be using Palm OS 5.2.1 and will not be compatible with Sprints up and coming PTT feature. I cannot see myself spending $550.00 for that device if it won't upgrade to OS6 or even be compatible with PTT.

[Dom]

I don't think Palm is better then PPC yet
Not sure Palm will ever be better than Pocket PC. Not sure Pocket PC will ever be better than Palm LOL. They're just different and in the past we've preferred the differences that are Pocket PC. I still think Palms are crap but ... if I tried one that was great then what's lost by switching ? It is not as if we all work for Microsoft. I hated all that Nintendo vs Sega thing and in the end it was pointless as Sony PS came out of nowehere and wiped out both of them ... I think Symbian is the next Sony PS LOL.
Dom

[apeguero]

I don't think Palm is better then PPC yet
Not sure Palm will ever be better than Pocket PC. Not sure Pocket PC will ever be better than Palm LOL. They're just different and in the past we've preferred the differences that are Pocket PC. I still think Palms are crap but ... if I tried one that was great then what's lost by switching ? It is not as if we all work for Microsoft. I hated all that Nintendo vs Sega thing and in the end it was pointless as Sony PS came out of nowehere and wiped out both of them ... I think Symbian is the next Sony PS LOL.
Dom

My definition of "better" in this case is which of these devices can serve my daily needs as well as replace my Sanyo 5300 mobile. For now PPC does in a limited way. The software is a lot better then what Palm had to offer. Which PPC? The H2210 in my case. I tried the Palm Tungsten E before and found it didn't meet my daily needs, however.

I agree with you that none are necessarily better than the other. It's like saying my Passat is the best sedan in the world :D .

I was waiting for the Treo 600 but as I said, I was not happy with Palm OS 5.2. So, for now, I am giving the nod to PPC for having a product like the iPaq h2210. Although it doesn't have 100% of what I want, it does have more than Palm did at the time I purchased it and still has enough to not force me to go out and buy a different device, like a Sony UX50, etc.

Just trying to clarify my point in this forum...I hope it's easier to understand now...thanks for the observation.

[Shaun Stuart]

I am glad to see Jasons Post has woken people up - I wrote about this in the forums the other day and did not get much of a response.


I wrote about the Palm innovation in another thread a couple of weeks ago but it did not get much attention.

I am a big Pocket PC fan - I am on my 4th device in 2 years basically because I just love the OS and the power and versatility of Pocket PCs.

One of the ciriticisims we all had of Palm (and a lot of the handheld publications) is their almost blinding arrogance that palm OS devices were better. I hated them for trashing superior devices like the early ipaqs just because they ran a Microsoft OS.

We are now 3 years on from the original Ipaqs and unfortunately I have noticed in the last year that many Pocket PC users have become like the old Palm mob - arrogant and short sighted. While we seem to have been blinded by the hype of Windows Mobile 2003 the real innovation has been created by others.

Yes WM2003 is better than Pocket PC 2002 but there has been no real innovation in the Pocket PC in last 12 months. We have new devices that are a little smaller and a little faster - but essentialy they all look like the same devices we had 2- 3 years ago.

If we were told 12 months ago that their would be a handheld device designed specifically for multimedia and gaming with a proper joystick and stereo speakers but with PIM features (Tapwaves Zodiac) , or a device with built in GPS (Garmin 3600), or a device with built in keyboard and 2megapixel camera (sony NZ90v), or maybe a landscape device with camera and keyboard (Sony-ux50) or a device with a 320x480 screen with on the fly rotation (T3) we would have probably put money on them being Pocket PC devices.

As you know all of these devices have a palm os - this is a giant leap for Palm considering where they were 12 months ago and for them to do this - credit should be given.

For the first time ever I am seriously contemplating a Palm handheld for my next device - but my love of the pocket pc means I want Microsoft and their partners to come up with something exciting to convince me to stay.

I just fear they will not act quickly enough.



I wont give up on pocket pc yet but I am looking at the new tapwave device (www.tapwave.com) and using it in conjuction with an XDA2 when they are both released.

[bridgecrosser]

I have not been around a lot lately due to the fact that I've purchased a T2 for my daily driver.

I became disillusioned with my H5450's poor performance and activesync woes. I was constantly fooling around with the PPC to make it work right. After deciding to make the switch, I've been more than mildly impressed by the way this Palm works (Who'd have believed it!). It simply works without hassle and resetting and folling around all the time. I've become more productive because of my decision, too. That's the bottom line for me--does the device work right and can I use it and not have to play with it all the time to get my work done.

Am I staying with Palm forever? Who knows! But until MS starts making significant progress with their OS, it's hard to leave what works for that which only promises to one day be innovative again.

[lapchinj]

...Check out Symbian handset sales. They are exploding. Symbian shares are rocketing. All the latest Motorola Symbian handsets sold out in hours...

That's because these are cell phones. Someone who has a cell phone doesn't care about the resolution of screen they don't need apps. All they want is to find a phone# to dail or a small game to play. That's why it's sold out not because of the apps or OS it's because it's just a phone to make a call with. If they want apps then they get a smartphone or a separate PDA (PPC, Palm etc). There's no memory on these cell phones to do much with either. I have an i95 Nextel and I have only 1.4 meg free memory. (Or am I missing something?)

Jeff -

[robert_biggs]

* Quad VGA resolution 480x640

I doubt you will ever see this. VGA screen resolutions would annihilate battery life in the blink of an eye. One of the reasons why Sony's top of the line Clie models, and the new Tungsten T3, have such poor batter life is due to the high resolution 320x480 display, which consumes a lot more power than the Pocket PC's native 240x320 resolution. I don't see the logic in having PPCs with 2 hour battery life, just to "one up" Palm.

I agree, higher resolution is only good if battery life can keep up. Having one great feature is not worth it, if the functionality of the whole suffers from it.

But, Foo, I have to disagree with your previous comment about PPCs/Palms being a dying breed. The thing that drove me to get a PDA was the ability to carry all my information, as well a source of quality entertainment in my pocket. A smartphone screen is not big enough for most of what I use my PPC for and a mini-laptop dosen't fit in my pocket. And what would be the point of shrinking a full-fledged desktop OS device down to the point it fits in your pocket? So much of it would be useless at that size. A stripped down mobile OS is the best solution (quicker, leaves more room for other features). The only technology that would make a PDA not needed for me would be a holographic screen projected from a smartphone-type device (and that kind of technology at an affordable price is WAY in the future). Even with Smartphones getting more and more functionality, I will always remain a 2-device guy.

As far as Palm goes, I have always been a PPC-addict. But I'm not too stubborn to switch over if PPC continues to lag behind. Like as stated before, PPC is only of small significance to MS. If SmartPhone takes off, I think we'll see the PPC platform get even more neglected and maybe even die-off in the next 5-10 years. MS has nothing to gain pusuing a market segment if there is insufficient returns. **PEOPLE, MICROSOFT DOSEN"T CARE AS MUCH ABOUT POCKET PC'S AS YOU DO!!** Sorry to shout, but so many people think if they rant and threaten enough, MS will start listening to them. MS only listens to the bottom line. If PPC's don't produce sufficient revenue for them, they have no obligation to pour more money into making a better platform. Palm on the other hand has chosen to not diversify much and so they have every incentive to be the best at what they do, making PDAs. I hope PPC regains the lead, but if they don't, I won't sit on the sidelines complaining; I'll get a new Palm. :wink:

[Jonathan1]

Microsoft needs to drop the hammer and make the next version of Windows Mobile a tangible improvement over what we have now - a leap like Windows XP was over Windows ME, not a Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE, which is what it feels like we've been seeing for the past two versions.

I've been saying this since PPC 2002 came out. I was royally let down on that release. PPC 2000 was such a massive improvement over CE 2.11 that it really was like jumping from 9x to NT. 2002 and 2003 are such minor updates (Debatably what's under the hood in 03 is a massive overhaul.) that the question: Do I need to upgrade starts becoming a major factor in a new purchase. Ironically this is the same boat Palm is/was in with their PDA line. Users were happy with what they had. No reason to upgrade. In the case of the Pocket PC users have very little reason to upgrade other then more RAM/faster CPU. (It’s the wintel syndrome but in a smaller form factor.) Also, unfortunately, beige box syndrome has started to set into the PDA market. Most PPC’s have very similar specs, very similar designs, very similar features resulting in ho-hum designs with few exceptions such as the 19xx series.
You never see innovative designs like that prototype iPaq that was leaked in Macromedia Flash form last fall/spring. Never see risky designs like the stuff Sony puts out. Innovation is key to sales. If a person sees a device similar to his/her existing one what reason do they have to upgrade?

[powder2000]

I am with pocket pc forever, I am not hesitant to say it. I have never found the palm interface to be right for me, it just doesn't work for me. Maybe that says something about me, I don't know and don't care. I look at my pocket pc as a pocket computer and I don't expect it to be like reading a childrens book. I have a few different models and the screen resolution has never been a problem for me. I would suspect the majority of people would tell you that. Just because palm has a higher res. screen right now doesn't sway me in the least bit. And damn it, I have never had serious issues with activesync, never. MS, you you still have a costumer here, I just like your OS, it makes sense to me.

[shawnc]

I wont give up on pocket pc yet but I am looking at the new tapwave device (www.tapwave.com) and using it in conjuction with an XDA2 when they are both released.

This is an interesting looking device. I've been hearing about it in these forums but had never seen it until now. My only caution, we in the PPC camp have been waiting for a "white knight" to come and take us to the promised land for some time now (toshiba and Dell immediately come to mind). Still waiting. Maybe it will be tapware, I certainly hope so.

While Dell did much to reduce prices, at the end of the day the PPC is STILL about making comprimises that are difficult to understand at this stage of it's development. We should NOT have to spend $500 on a PDA to get wireless, we should NOT have to pay extra for a decent PIM, we should NOT have to pay extra to sync with Word, we should NOT have to pay extra to customize our Today screen, we should NOT have to run and immediately buy a CF/SD so we can listen our favorite CD.............

Maybe I'm just having a bad day. But I'm tired of comprimising.

[Fzara]

I just bought a Sony UX50 yesterday morning. It'll be a good change from my Dell Axim X5 with a Linksys WiFi card, to a UX50 paired with WiFi and BT, in conjunction with my SonyEricsson T610.

As for my UX50, if I cant adopt to it like I hope to, I shall return it to Dell for a refund, and go back to my Axim X5.

I feel a good number of you are sticking with the Pocket PC OS, because you guys are just hardcore anti-Palm fans. When I used to have an M500, I managed with excellent organization. But when I moved to my Dell Axim X5 and had the chance to use the multi-tasking, I didnt use it all that much. I'm not into using 5 applications at the same time. Which is why I think every OS has its power for different people. Please, stop bashing something you think is NOT good for you.

Until Microsoft comes out with something thats amazingly impressive like most of you have stated, I am not sure I will stick with the Pocket PC considering what the Palm OS has to offer at today's market value.

[Dom]

...Check out Symbian handset sales. They are exploding. Symbian shares are rocketing. All the latest Motorola Symbian handsets sold out in hours...

That's because these are cell phones. Someone who has a cell phone doesn't care about the resolution of screen they don't need apps. All they want is to find a phone# to dail or a small game to play. That's why it's sold out not because of the apps or OS it's because it's just a phone to make a call with. If they want apps then they get a smartphone or a separate PDA (PPC, Palm etc). There's no memory on these cell phones to do much with either. I have an i95 Nextel and I have only 1.4 meg free memory. (Or am I missing something?)

Jeff -

You are sooooo missing something Jeff. They could have chose another phone to do that ! They chose this device for all the reasons that you think they did not ;) Let me give you an analogy. You have Phone A for $10. Phone B comes out for $100. You only want to make calls. They both do that well. Will you swap ? Of course you won't. So.... think about it ... why the rush to Symbian ?
Dom

[Dom]

I am with pocket pc forever, I am not hesitant to say it. I have never found the palm interface to be right for me, it just doesn't work for me. Maybe that says something about me, I don't know and don't care. I look at my pocket pc as a pocket computer and I don't expect it to be like reading a childrens book. I have a few different models and the screen resolution has never been a problem for me. I would suspect the majority of people would tell you that. Just because palm has a higher res. screen right now doesn't sway me in the least bit. And damn it, I have never had serious issues with activesync, never. MS, you you still have a costumer here, I just like your OS, it makes sense to me.
You would have loved the original Psion ;) Two lines of text for a display I think. Everybody raved about it and wondered why you'd need more ;) Things die if they stand still.....
Dom

[Paul Kay]

You would have loved the original Psion ;) Two lines of text for a display I think. Everybody raved about it and wondered why you'd need more

Dom,

:oops: I still have the next version with a 3 line text display, perhaps I ought to frame it and hang it on the wall as a reminder.

[lapchinj]

...You are sooooo missing something Jeff...

Well I really went off track with this one. :oops: I had a funny feeling I was missing something. But boy did I miss this one. I didn't even see them come in to play. But I did just take a quick lesson on Symbian "handsets" at the symbian.com site. I think that my head's been buried in the sand too long with Microsoft, Palm, and Linux. Nice stuff I'll have to look further into this. Hmmm - Cool 8) - I now have something to play with this weekend. :D

Jeff -

[Dom]

Ha ha Paul that's cool. Wish I'd kept all my old computer bits. Those Psion's are a rare find I imagine. Can't imagine what the Excel equivalent was like ;0) To think that what you have there was part of the birth of Symbian which is now taking on the giants.
Dom

[Dom]

http://www.mastersoftmobilesolutions.com/2LinesLol.jpg
2 Lines is more than enough. Why would I want 3 lines Paul ? ;)

[Dom]

boy did I miss this one
Cool to see the Motorolla thingy there ! Now, what would you rather have, that or a Smartphone ? Okay I know a few of us will suffer involuntary reflex and reply "Smartphone" before we've thought about the question ... given that the Symbian alliance sold 450 Million units last year I don't think you need to worry about Palm.... I've got onhe of the latest Palms and it is still crap ... and if it were great I would embrace it and wouldn't have a problem with it ... but it aint. Damn I want that Motorola thingy now... off to Ebay ;)
Dom

[lapchinj]

Now, what would you rather have, that or a Smartphone ? Okay I know a few of us will suffer involuntary reflex and reply "Smartphone" before we've thought about the question

Smartphone! of course. :shocked!:
Damn! there goes my involuntary reflex again :roll: .


... off to Ebay ;)
Maybe I meet you there later 8) I gotta check this out.

Jeff -

[bostonnerd]

I have not been around a lot lately due to the fact that I've purchased a T2 for my daily driver.

I became disillusioned with my H5450's poor performance and activesync woes. ..
Same here but I went with a Tungsten C, and still have my 5450. I have a love hate relationship with both platforms. They've both let me down in business situations. Here's one example....went to Munich on a business trip a few weeks ago. Munich airport has free WIFI thoughout, so I figured I'd be able to sync the 200 or so Outlook work messages I had before I borded to go home. Fired up the Palm, and the %^& web browser couldn't render the airport's home page needed for access. Aha...no problem, I'll just use the Ipaq. Nope...Ipaq, which was fully charged the night before had 0, nada, zilch battery left when I turned it on. Flipped open the Dell laptop out of suspend, and got my email. Life shouldn't be this hard :). That being said, the T/C is normally bullet proof and handles everything I demand of it without all the futzing around that the 5450 requires.

[Scott R]

From where I'm sitting, the PPCs problems lie squarely on MS' shoulders. You can't tell me after 100 different PPCs come out, all with a D-Pad in the middle and two buttons on either side that there Dell, HP, and Toshiba lack any degree of creativity. It seems to me that what we're seeing is the result of MS tying their hands too tightly. It was stated a couple of months ago that MS relaxed their restrictions but it was never revealed what the old restrictions were, nor how they changed. If they relaxed them a lot, the good news is that we should see some real innovation on the PPC front, but the bad news is that if MS only relaxed them just a couple of months ago, that wouldn't be enough time to see the fruits of that labor near-term. Worst case, MS may still have too many restrictions, in which case there may not be innovative devices in development.

To whoever it was that said that MS copies the good ideas of their competitors, well...they still haven't done that with the basics that Palm got right back when they were still creating B&W PDAs. Aside from tossing a dozen extra contact fields at us, the core PIM functionality still requires too many steps compared to an age-old PalmPilot, and there's still no recurring alarms.

I agree with the other poster who mentioned that one key difference is that the head of PalmSource and palmOne use these things and they're future relies on them succeeding. Ballmer and Gates aren't in that boat. The team working on PPC within MS probably doesn't have adequate resources and they may even lack the hunger, since they could just transfer to another department within MS if they got bored there. On the manufacturer side of things, it's not much different. If Dell, HP, or Toshiba's PDAs flop, big whoop. That's just one small part of their business. If palmOne, Handspring, or Tapwave's PDAs flop, it's game over. That sort of atmosphere fosters a different sort of attitude.

Scott

[hhong]

Wow! there certainly are a lot of replies to this post. I skipped a lot of them to get my two cents in so if someones already brought up these points, I agree.

I agree the it's great to see innovation in our handhelds. And, as of late it seems that the palm os camp is being more agressive. However, I wouldn't praise palm all that much. When you mention that palm has been innovating screen resolution, you should remember it was actual against Palm's will that sony started innovating palms by offering higher resolutions than the os would allow. Palm was the last hardware manufacturer to actually concede that consumers wanted the higher resolutions.

You also failed to mention that HP innovated the market by bringing out the transreflective screen. Sure higher resolution would be nice but transreflective screens were also a huge boost to the readability of small pda screens.

It wasn't long ago that people were complaining that Palm was too slow to react to the market's wishes. They finally woke up and smelled the coffee. Big deal.

A lot of the new innovation I'm seeing on the palm side are catch ups to the ppc side. The biggest innovation with the sony ux50 is that it's landscape with a keyboard. In the CE days, MS was pushing that but no one was buying, problem was they were small, but not that small. I admire Sony for being able to squeeze all the new things into such a small space, that's whats really new about the design.

PPC's biggest problem use to be size, huge bricks vs the svelte Palm V. But with the IPAQ 1900 series, I think that's finally been addressed.

I agree that higher rez would be great, but it seems more evolutionary than revolutionary at this point. It's not a new idea, just one that's waiting to be implemented on the PPC side.

I'm rambling now, huh? Okay I'll quit.

[shindullin]

I've been using a PPCs since the 36xx came out several years ago. Prior to that I had a "cutting" edge Palm IIIe. The Compaq simply torched the best palms of the day, including the m100 series that came soon after. I kept the Compaq up till 2002 when I torched it in an ill-fated ROM upgrade attempt.
I shopped around and Palm still had nothing that could compare to a PPC a went with the Genio e550g. Dual slots, 4inch screen of middling quality, slower than my Compaq (especially when I overclocked it), and terrible battery life. A pretty good fit but obviously a compromise.
I bought my wife an m515 at the beg of this year and it's petty impresive. Very small, pretty nice screen, decently fast, capable of storing pictures, doc's to go was pretty good too although not native, it had a really neat vibration alert, and there were no sync problems. Then static got into our lives, and the 515 got a case of the the SUDS - sudden usb death syndrome. Brighthand has a huge FAQ on this COMMON problem. Palm had obviously not tested their machine design well enough prior to product release. The OS was still nothing compared to PPC but it was pretty good.
Recently, I went to FRY's to check out the new Palms and find out what all the buzz was about. These things are like night and day. OS5 is lightyears ahead of OS4 and the machines are really well designed. The OS is still behind a PPC but the screens really are better and there is far greater variety of machines to fit individual needs and preference. Unfortunately, or fortunately, Tosh apparently doesn't think that having FLASH ROM in their products means anything and will not be selling an update for the Genio, so I'm on the fense as to whether I want/need a new one right now (def not a Tosh) but if I were in the market Microsoft would have a tough time getting my money at the moment.

[saabcaptain]

At this point I just want to see a PDA, Palm, PPC or otherwise take the market by storm. PDAs are a dying breed with phones and cheap laptops taking their place.

I for one miss my Palm platform having used the 1940 for 2 1/2 months now but will stick with the platform at least until OS6 for Palm comes and then see what that looks like. I hope details of PPC2004OS start to leak to.

I want a Tungsten E form factor with a 320x480 screen, OS 6...

or the same from PPC with an improved OS with better GUI and much snappier response.

[mv]

If i like OS6, i´ll swicht. Palm is the one who is innovating right now. OS5 was not enought, but 320*480 is lovely. And I think that the Palm GUI is cleaner and simpler. I still love my iPAQ, but i want my next PDA to convince me to buy it - I´ll like and XDA II, with a redesigned GUI, faster performance, BT, WiFi, GSM, GPRS, 1xrTT, 1xEDO or one of those fast wireless stuff. I also want a 2mp digital camera on it. And 256 mb of RAM.

And i would be very happy if it doesnt come from microsoft. I´m tired of their lack of user support - 3 years after the ppc os launch, and we left handed people still cant move displacement bars to the left. Palm user can a long time ago.

I love my pocket pc, but i want MS and the OEMS to give reasons for stay with it. At this point, the treo 600 is tempting me.

[roberto_torres]

:(

I went from Palm OS to PPC because I wanted better multimedia (video, music, pics and games).

Now What???
Palm has higher resolution (now native in the OS).
Native Landscape mode (something I have been desirign in PPC for long time).
The darn OS even has support for 3D accelerators (Tapwave sodiac).

And the most disturbing: FULL support for native word and excell files in Documents to go (Free with palm handhelds). First they didn't loos formatting, now you can send the files to the handhelds with ZERO conversion. Are you listening Pocket Office team at M$?

*&*$# MS if you don't do someting I am going to go back to Palm OS.

Only reson I am not with Palm is that they don't have anything to compete with the Ipaq 1900 size wise.

[easylife]

Just a note about this "native" support: Yes, DTG can handle native formats now but the files now lose formatting just as much as they do on PPCs. Also, I might note that Textmaker has better support for the native files on the PPC as well. :)

It really bugs me how Palm advertizes DTG as if they wrote the software. On their website, there are icons indicating what you can do with any given handheld - and one is the native support for MS Office. :roll:

[ToeCutter]

Damn, Jason's gone plumb loco!

Not really, as I agree with him 100%. Palm has done an incredible job of adding features to their product lines. I've often wondered if Jason should consider a sister site named "Palm Thoughts".

After perusing this thread, it seems that EVERYONE agrees. Then why do we continue buying PocketPCs?

MS would get my vote almost immediately if they simply consider a resolution bump for PPC. QVGA resolution SUCKS. It's completely inadequate for anything except for perhaps looking up a phone number. Browsing the web at QVGA is an exercise in futility. We need VGA as a MINIMUM for web and email. Come on MS, it can't be that difficult to jack up the res. WinCE supports higher resolutions.

For the most part, I'm holding out for something that I can use as a "notebook lite". All I need is email, web, calender and contacts. No PPC does all of these well, but Palm is coming close.

Is it AMAZING that this thread is so active on a PocketPC website?!

[huangzhinong]

:(

I went from Palm OS to PPC because I wanted better multimedia (video, music, pics and games).

Now What???
Palm has higher resolution (now native in the OS).
Native Landscape mode (something I have been desirign in PPC for long time).
The darn OS even has support for 3D accelerators (Tapwave sodiac).

And the most disturbing: FULL support for native word and excell files in Documents to go (Free with palm handhelds). First they didn't loos formatting, now you can send the files to the handhelds with ZERO conversion. Are you listening Pocket Office team at M$?
.


This is a common mistake for palm users: Not all features show up in a single unit.

Steve bush in brighthand.com has said the native word support in Palm T3(DTG) is still far away than acceptable, so don't use this evidence.

Palmer said a few years ago:

Palm is smaller
Palm apps is much more than PPC and most of them are free
Palm interface is simple
Palm is cheaper
Palm's battery is good for 2 month

I didn't see any of them show up in T3 review.
But I own a T3 and I love it too.

So say and argue reasonablely.

[Hugh Nano]

My frustration with the Pocket PC's low resolution and with the Pocket PC OS's lack of support for full Windows apps are the two main reasons why my next gizmo purchase is more likely to be a mini-laptop rather than a Pocket PC. However, I have invested enough in the Pocket PC platform that an increase in resolution (pixel doubling comes to mind) and the addition of USB connectivity would win me back decisively (I do love the Pocket PC's instant-on!)--but, as has been mentioned before, does Micro$oft really want me to go there? Given their low profit margin on Windows CE devices compared to full Windows devices, probably not.

[Prevost]

Pocket PC OEM's are falling into the same trap the Palm OEM's did. Thinking that the devices will sell themselves. Frankly, unless something desperately changes, I don't see a need to move to a new Pocket PC.

Now going back to a Palm device? At this point, even that seems like a more feasible move.
Well, latest moves from Gateway and JVC in order to delay or stop their PPC plans probably should make some see the devices don't sell themselves.

Didn't you buy a TC some months ago Vincenzosi?

[beq]

Whoa can't believe this opinion piece was posted by JD himself 8O I would've thought this kind of articles could only have been made over, er well, Ed's dead body :mrgreen:

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Well, latest moves from Gateway and JVC in order to delay or stop their PPC plans probably should make some see the devices don't sell themselves.

Didn't you buy a TC some months ago Vincenzosi?

A T|T actually. I was going to do the T|C but the non-stereo headset stopped me. I went back to the T|T because I had the PPC for almost six months and couldn't re-adapt to the Palm OS again, but that was just out of my own laziness.

I love my Axim, don't get me wrong, but I also like upgrading about once a year, and I see nothing compelling in the PPC world to make me upgrade to another one. I'll be due around December/January for my annual new PDA buying jaunt, and, well, I'm not looking forward to it.

On the other hand, the new UX50 was in my hot hands on Tuesday, and damned if I didn't love it. Then I saw the T|T 3, and now I'm totally hooked. I'll tell ya one thing: Regardless of which does better, maybe the Palm OEM's will push MS and their guys to get moving on something a little more interesting. I love my PPC, but I'm quickly losing interest in it. The lines are no longer blurred; they're being downright erased.

[klinux]

Go JD! I am a loyal PPC user since the Palm Nino dats and has faithfully preached PPC to anyone who would listen. Heck, I even converted my wife to PPC from her trusty Palm V.

But for all the reasons JD listed, Palm has very much caught up and even surpassed PPC. Palm will be my next PDA.

For similar reasons, I got my first Apple (running OS X) 15 months ago. It also doesn't hurt that Palm syncs with Apple whereas PPC does not sync with MS' Otlook/Entourage.

[Pocket PC Dubai]

Palm is committed to Palm. Is Microsoft as committed to Pocket PC ? I suspect it is more of a sideline whereas Palm has everything to lose.
Dom
True about Palm. However I believe that Microsoft are committed to Pocket PCs as they are committed to Smartphones, Xbox, Tablet PCs, etc… From various resources I got to know that MS is not giving up on PPCs. You cannot deny that Palms are becoming more like Pocket PCs in terms of multimedia and soon multitasking. We like the T3 because it is more like a PPC than previous Plams.

[Pocket PC Dubai]

Reference to Pocket PC Magazine's article: Interview with Chris Hill, Microsoft's Lead Product Manager for Windows Mobile 2003. Just notice how he answered the following question:
How did feedback from existing users influence the improvements in Windows Mobile 2003? What were the most asked for features?

We listened carefully to both our end users and our enterprise customers. Most users loved the existing functionality of the Pocket PC and simply wanted refinements to the user experience. They requested and got smarter notification bubbles and fewer taps to get to their information. The new Connection Manager makes it easier to configure the Pocket PC and the optimized search feature makes it easier to find information in the Contacts database. We've also added a mute button, SMS improvements, and separate volume controls for the telephony and PDA functionalities on the Phone Edition devices. For our enterprise customers, we have increased security on the Pocket PC, added support for the 802.11x Wi-Fi standard, included a new IPSEC VPN client, and added support for multiple VPN connections. Finally, we've striven to drive down the support costs for operators and corporate IT departments. Windows Mobile 2003 supports provisioning via a standard WAP provisioning message, a CAB file on an expansion card, or an XML service, allowing remote configuration for e-mail and connectivity settings.

It has been over a year and a half since the last major upgrade of the Pocket PC operating system. Some may see this version as a minor upgrade. Do you agree with that view?

No. The PDA market is maturing to the point that both hardware and software are hitting a sweet spot in terms of functionality, quality, and price. Our challenge with Windows Mobile 2003 was not to add more to a feature-rich device, but to take the broad functionality in the platform and make it even better. Our customers are telling us they value the interface, navigation, and feature set of the Pocket PC. So we set out to refine it to make it easier to configure and use.
We have also done a lot of work at the platform level to enable new and innovative Pocket PCs. Different screen sizes, integrated keyboards, and innovative accessories are all possible with the work that we have done in Windows Mobile 2003. We expect to see some very innovative and different Pocket PCs within the life cycle of Windows Mobile 2003. Our platform work extends to our developer community, enabling some exciting commercial and corporate application development for the Pocket PC. Our tools have been integrated into Visual Studio and .NET CF (Compact Framework) has been integrated into the platform, providing Windows developers a single tool, skill set, and programming paradigm for server, desktop, Web services, and devices development. Windows Mobile 2003 is raising the bar again, providing a smart and connectedmobile device that provides a powerful and familiar environment for individual and corporate users.


Do you think our requirements were communicated to them correctly? :?

[IpaqMan2]

I totally agree with the thought of Jason on this. What has Microsoft been doing for the last 2 to 3 years? Have they not seen what has been happening to Palm and their licenses?

Everyone knows that just a few years ago Palm was in serious finacial problems. Palm lacked every kind of innovation there was. They had a weak product line. Their PDAs which they called "simplified" was really a low tech and "dumb" down device. It showed the lack of Palm's innovation with not being able to see the future. Palm kept annouyncing how their PDA users didn't need or want Mp3s play back capibilities and was happy with a monochrome screen. Their OS was weak and their devices lacked any real processing power.

But when Palm annouynced the impossible and said they were going to rewrite their OS so it was ARM compatible, that should of been Microsoft's que and really improved their OS and woo'ed away everyone. I mean Microsoft is an OS company. They and their OEMS (which by they are also OEMs for PCs) could of brought PPCs to a new level. Where as Palm was a weak OS company with little experince in making innovations in hardware and in OS. Yet Palm has learned to "reinvent" themselves and come full circle with devices that are as attractive if not more attractive to the average user than PPCs has. Yet Microsoft continues to ignore this and keeps acting as if PPCs were not an important business and market decision for them. Palm is about to release their OS 6 that will do tue multitasking and will bring their OS in par with PPCs. So what is Microsoft doing that's innovatively different? Is it Microsoft that doesn't care or is it Bill Gates?

Eitherway... I have gotten over my pride... I left the PPC camp over 2 years ago. I was tired of seeing PPCs stay the same. All the changes have been "under the Hood" PPC 2003 really is nothing more than what PPC 2002 should of been the first time around. The form factor of PPCs are all the same frome each OEM. Then screen rez hasn't changed and there has been nothing to get excited about in the PPC world for years now.

I've gone with the Sony Clies and I have been very happy with them and have never looked back with regret or doubt, only to see when the PPC would woo me back and so far it hasn't and I wonder, if it ever will.

[Dom]

I totally agree with the thought of Jason on this. What has Microsoft been doing for the last 2 to 3 years? Have they not seen what has been happening to Palm and their licenses?

Am I right in thinking most people on this thread have not seen any of the latest Symbian devices ? The biggest threat to Palm (and maybe therefore Pocket PC too) is Symbian ! That A920 has AMAZING 3G features as well as video capture, picture in picture video conferencing AND all the features of the Pocket PC. It sold out IMMEDIATELY.
Dom
PS I checked and it seems America usually gets these devices after the UK.
PPS We get them after Japan ;0)
PPPS Somebody mentioned replacing their PDA with a miniature laptop. My Libretto is on Ebay now (make me an offer ;0). Sadly they are not yet the answer. Even the Sony Vaio U3 with 4 inch or so screen is a pain in the butt....

[Dom]

Palm is committed to Palm. Is Microsoft as committed to Pocket PC ? I suspect it is more of a sideline whereas Palm has everything to lose.
Dom
True about Palm. However I believe that Microsoft are committed to Pocket PCs as they are committed to Smartphones, Xbox, Tablet PCs, etc…
Urghhh. In that case we are knackered :(
The Smartphone is archaic compared to other devices selling along side it, the PS2 wiped the floor with the XBOX (though I ADORE my XBox but where are the games ?). As for the Tablet PC I don't know anybody that has one, nor anybody that wants one other than to see what it is like. The fact is Microsoft see their Windows software as core business - all the rest are none critical playthings ;)

[roberto_torres]

Palm kept annouyncing how their PDA users didn't need or want Mp3s play back capibilities and was happy with a monochrome screen.

I don't agree. Palm always said they would implement the features when time was adecuate (check brighthand article on this). only that their time has been slow in the past. Now MS is slowing down :(

By the way, Brighthand and Infosync are just discussing this same topic. curious:

www.brighthand.com/article/Paths_Grow_Nearer

www.infosync.net (Look for Editorial: Upturned Palm)


About the comments on the Xbox. I think MS should concentrate more and put more resources on the PPC platform instead.
GameCube and PS2 are kicking the Xbox's butt. But on the handheld they have half the market.

[Dom]

By the way, Brighthand and Infosync are just discussing this same topic. curious:
More like frightening LOL. Haven't Brighthand noticed the Symbian challenge ? I've seen all this before with Sega vs Nintendo before they were wiped out without warning by Sony PS. Anyhow if I have a phone with email, web, contacts, business apps, games, video etc etc at a carrier subsidised price, why would I ever want to carry a Palm or Pocket PC too ? If I only want a "smart" phone then the SmartPhone is probably the dumbest option as the other "smart" phones do a ton more :)
Finally .... almost everybody has a mobile phone. Hardly anybody has a pda. Who has the advantage here ?

Dom

[roberto_torres]

By the way, Brighthand and Infosync are just discussing this same topic. curious:
More like frightening LOL. Haven't Brighthand noticed the Symbian challenge ? I've seen all this before with Sega vs Nintendo before they were wiped out without warning by Sony PS. Anyhow if I have a phone with email, web, contacts, business apps, games, video etc etc at a carrier subsidised price, why would I ever want to carry a Palm or Pocket PC too ? If I only want a "smart" phone then the SmartPhone is probably the dumbest option as the other "smart" phones do a ton more :)
Finally .... almost everybody has a mobile phone. Hardly anybody has a pda. Who has the advantage here ?

Dom

On the smart phone market also Palm is getting ahead. Palm OS 5 phones like the samsung have 320x320 screens 8O , and run all programs written for palm OS, while Smartphone requres programs written for it. And now Palm is writting a special version of the Palm OS ly for budget phones (high endphones will use OS 6).


If Microsoft does not wakes up they are going to loose the race in both handhelds and phones.

[Dom]

Remember there are phones based on the palm OS. Palm just adqured Handspring.

Also there is the sweet looking new samsung (the one with palm os 5). That device has a 320x360 screen and can dance circles around any Smartphone. Also the palm OS phones use the same software as palm handhelds so they immediately have much more programs than Smarphone available.

Yep I have the Tungsten W ;)
Thing is have you any idea how strong Nokia Brand loyalty is ? Ever met anybody with a Samsung phone ? Me neither. I wouldn't give the current SmartPhones a second look :) They all feel like prototypes to me. Any news on a 3G smartphone ? They are already available from Symbian partners.

Dom

[Scott R]

Dom, I agree that the Symbian phones get too easily dismissed as PDA alternatives. The Nokia 3650 is an insanely popular smartphone. It's main problem (for us PDA people) is that it lacks a decent method of text entry. OTOH, the featureset is excellent, there's a good (and growing) number of 3rd party apps (that don't need to go through a stifling "approval" process), and they've nailed the pricing (you can get one for free after rebates and a one-year contract).

I don't think that the smartphones will clean up all PDA sales, though. If someone would implement my ideal smartphone design (which I mocked up a while back and posted on TreoCentral - basically it's a smaller version of the Nokia Communicator idea), I might change my mind on this somewhat. But most smartphone designs are still trying to keep things as small as non-smartphones. As a result, you don't get a high-res screen and text entry suffers in comparison. With those designs, they may indeed capture the larger market of non-geeks, but there will still be a worthwhile market for PDAs with high-res screens and stylus-based input.

PS - I'm still very skeptical that the upcoming Samsung Palm OS phone will have a high-res screen. Even if it did, you'd lose much of the value of it since the screen is so physically small (not only would it be hard to read the text in an excel spreadsheet cell, imagine trying to position the cursor there with a stylus).

Scott

PS...Here's that smartphone mockup I mentioned above, in case anyone's interested:
http://www.hipnetic.com/geek/treo_new2.gif

[Dom]

Dom, I agree that the Symbian phones get too easily dismissed as PDA alternatives. The Nokia 3650 is an insanely popular smartphone. It's main problem (for us PDA people) is that it lacks a decent method of text entry.
Love the mockup Scott ! I have a 3650 and hate it LOL. It's the flippin' telephone dial style ! Check out UIQ (Symbian) to see what I like. It has same entry methods as Pocket PC eg Popup keyboard etc.
I get the impression here that nobody has tried the Symbian stuff yet they already sell more than Pocket PC with the 6600, SX1, NGage astill to come at Christmas...
Dom

[dh]

I believe that with the P900 and the other Symbian Smartphones on the way, it might be time to seriously consider one. I would love to get my hands on the Motorola A920 to try out. Hope it is available here before too long.

The only serious competition to Symbian is likely to be the Treo line, the PPCPE is too big to be a phone and MS smartphone is too big to be a phone and two low in features to be a PDA replacement. The only problem might be pa1mOne's lack of resources when trying to compete with the big boys.

[Dom]

I believe that with the P900 and the other Symbian Smartphones on the way, it might be time to seriously consider one.
There are soooo many companies behind Symbian, and together they must be throwing 100x more at Symbian than MS throws at SmartPhone or Pocket PC. I just wish Microsoft had joined when they were asked (which they were). Then they could have influenced it from an Enterprise perspective but with balance to consumers being given by Nokia etc. Instead Microsoft have decided to compete with Symbian. In the beginning I thought Microsoft had no chance. Now I think they have even less. They'd have still kept to their business model as Symbian shareholders get a cut from every Symbian phone (licence) sold.

Scott I've heard rumours of a new Nokia Communicator (Symbian). I have the 9210 (you knew I would say that LOL) but don't really like it. Too big, too slow, and I hate the navigation.....But the new one may well be great.
Seem to be some A920s on EBay at good prices. Tempted ;)
Dom

[ethancaine]

[
I prefer to think of it as a case of two tortoises :lol:

Hehe, "...a case of two tortoises" Yeah, I like that one. Forgive me while I quote Metallica... "Sad but true!"

Let's play a match up game... Match the philosophy with the appropriate company:

"That option is coming, maybe it'll make it to the next OS version." (MS or Palm)

"We would do that, but the current hardware is limiting our capability. Never mind the fact that we're controlling exactly what the hardware is allowed to do." (MS or Palm)

"We already own the market in every other aspect so why wouldn't people just flock to us in the handheld market?" (MS or Palm)

"Handheld computing is all we do, so we must be doing it right, right?" (MS or Palm)

Answers due by 31 Oct 2004 and grades will be returned to you by 31 Oct 2015. (I grade papers at the same rate as handheld computing technology)

[Dom]

"Anyone else find that using PalmOS is very similar to writing notes on your bare hand with a number 2 pencil?"
Pencil preferred any day and I am open minded ;)
Dom

[beq]

By the way, Brighthand and Infosync are just discussing this same topic. curious:
www.brighthand.com/article/Paths_Grow_Nearer
www.infosync.net (Look for Editorial: Upturned Palm)
Interesting, was there some recent event or conference that precipitated all these big-picture contemplations?

[Prevost]

Reference to Pocket PC Magazine's article: Interview with Chris Hill, Microsoft's Lead Product Manager for Windows Mobile 2003. Just notice how he answered the following question:
How did feedback from existing users influence the improvements in Windows Mobile 2003? What were the most asked for features?

We listened carefully to both our end users and our enterprise customers. Most users loved the existing functionality of the Pocket PC and simply wanted refinements to the user experience. They requested and got smarter notification bubbles and fewer taps to get to their information. The new Connection Manager makes it easier to configure the Pocket PC and the optimized search feature makes it easier to find information in the Contacts database. We've also added a mute button, SMS improvements, and separate volume controls for the telephony and PDA functionalities on the Phone Edition devices. For our enterprise customers, we have increased security on the Pocket PC, added support for the 802.11x Wi-Fi standard, included a new IPSEC VPN client, and added support for multiple VPN connections. Finally, we've striven to drive down the support costs for operators and corporate IT departments. Windows Mobile 2003 supports provisioning via a standard WAP provisioning message, a CAB file on an expansion card, or an XML service, allowing remote configuration for e-mail and connectivity settings.

It has been over a year and a half since the last major upgrade of the Pocket PC operating system. Some may see this version as a minor upgrade. Do you agree with that view?

No. The PDA market is maturing to the point that both hardware and software are hitting a sweet spot in terms of functionality, quality, and price. Our challenge with Windows Mobile 2003 was not to add more to a feature-rich device, but to take the broad functionality in the platform and make it even better. Our customers are telling us they value the interface, navigation, and feature set of the Pocket PC. So we set out to refine it to make it easier to configure and use.
We have also done a lot of work at the platform level to enable new and innovative Pocket PCs. Different screen sizes, integrated keyboards, and innovative accessories are all possible with the work that we have done in Windows Mobile 2003. We expect to see some very innovative and different Pocket PCs within the life cycle of Windows Mobile 2003. Our platform work extends to our developer community, enabling some exciting commercial and corporate application development for the Pocket PC. Our tools have been integrated into Visual Studio and .NET CF (Compact Framework) has been integrated into the platform, providing Windows developers a single tool, skill set, and programming paradigm for server, desktop, Web services, and devices development. Windows Mobile 2003 is raising the bar again, providing a smart and connectedmobile device that provides a powerful and familiar environment for individual and corporate users.


Do you think our requirements were communicated to them correctly? :?Obviously, not.

As we would say overhere, "just grass-talking babe" (grass is NOT an hallucinogen in this context)

[Chairman Clench]

I have not been around a lot lately due to the fact that I've purchased a T2 for my daily driver.

I became disillusioned with my H5450's poor performance and activesync woes. I was constantly fooling around with the PPC to make it work right. After deciding to make the switch, I've been more than mildly impressed by the way this Palm works (Who'd have believed it!). It simply works without hassle and resetting and folling around all the time. I've become more productive because of my decision, too. That's the bottom line for me--does the device work right and can I use it and not have to play with it all the time to get my work done.

Am I staying with Palm forever? Who knows! But until MS starts making significant progress with their OS, it's hard to leave what works for that which only promises to one day be innovative again.

This is exactly what I did!!! I got sick of my 3970 needing to go back 5 times for a broken directional pad. I got sick of ActiveSync not working consistently. I got sick of alarms not sounding when they were supposed to. I got sick of random alarms going off at 4am for no apparent reason.

The T2 is small, well-constructed, and reliable. I have not had any missed alarms. HotSync works EVERY single time. The device has only had to be soft reset once since I got it versus 4x a week on my 3970.

It doesn't multi-task, but I really haven't found a need for it to, except when playing music, which it does. Pocket Tunes works very nicely and will run in the background so you can use the PIMs or read a book while listening to music.

Plus, Palm really thought through a lot of the user experiences. For example, I installed a clip-board freeware plug-in. It didn't work and I was getting "Fatal Error" on the Palm. I tried soft resets, but it didn't work. So, thinking in PocketPC terms, I went looking for instructions on how to do a hard reset. I came across a FAQ at Brighthand that described the different kinds of resets that Palm devices have. I found that there is one called a warm reset.

Basically, the warm reset is similar to "safe mode" in Windows. It loads the device without 3rd party apps and databases. I was able to get into the device and delete the offending applicaiton. I then simply soft-reset the device and I was back up and running... and I didn't have to restore ANYTHING!!! I was really impressed. On a PPC, that would have required a hard reset and a reinstallation of everything. At the very least, it woudl have required a restore from backup, which is slow.

Needless to say, I know some of you need the power of a PPC, but I am happy with my T2.

[roberto_torres]

Replying to the guys who changed to Palm OS:

I might be the next one to change. Only reason I'm holding back is current Palms form factor. I want something similar in size to the Palm V and Ipaq 19xx.

Why is plam keeping the slider in the T3 8O it just makes it phisically cumbersome.

PS: Have you tried DateBK 5 and Kyle's quest II they where my favourite apps when I used Palm OS.

[Scott R]

It's interesting for me to read about all the long-time PPC users here who have recently switched, or are thinking of switching, to the Palm OS. Meanwhile, I've been thinking a lot lately about getting a new PPC. After using and liking the Palm OS with my PalmPilot 5000 I got an iPaq 3630 shortly after they came out. I was disappointed with it overall and switched back to the Palm OS with a Samsung i300 smartphone and later my current Treo 300. I still have my iPaq that I use for the Bible software.

Reasons I didn't like my original iPaq 3630 include:
1) Poor basic PIM functionality
2) Inability to do much of the "fun stuff" without a bulky sleeve which basically meant that I didn't do any of the "fun stuff."
3) Couldn't stand the text input methods. I missed Graffiti.
4) The super-great free development tools (eVB) weren't so super-great after all.

The Graffiti issue was fixed with PPC 2002 (which I never bothered upgrading to since by that time I had already switched to the i300 and didn't want to bother paying for the PPC upgrade). The "fun stuff" issue has been resolved via all the PPC PDAs that are available these days with integrated memory expansion while keeping the form-factor small. The PIM issue still isn't resolved, but there are 3rd party alternatives available and I wouldn't mind writing my own anyway (something I started using eVB long ago but gave up after getting frustrated with eVB's limitations). For development, I can now use VS.NET (once my work buys me a copy) or maybe AppForge's MobileVB.

There's still a lot I don't like and prefer about the Palm OS, but some of the things I'd like to do nowadays isn't available (or has fewer and worse options) for the Palm OS. For instance, I'd like a photo editor that would allow me to take pictures with a digital camera, put the SD card in the PDA, then crop, rotate, resize, and maybe even do some minor touch-ups. There are 2-3 tools for the PPC that can handle this, none for the Palm OS.

I'm also really tempted by the whole GPS idea. On the Palm OS, Mapopolis finally just released their Navigator software for OS5 that can do voice navigation. They're the only one (unless you count the software that comes with the iQue, which would limit my option to buying an iQue). On the PPC, there are several apps that can do that.

I don't see any reason why the Palm OS can't do those things just as well (or better thanks to their higher-res screens) than a PPC these days, but the developers haven't gotten there yet. The PPC's head start in multimedia capabilities has resulted in stronger app choices here.

Of course, I'll be getting a Zodiac soon. I haven't made a choice about the PPC side of things yet. Today I picked up one of those clearanced GPS units from Radio Shack that should (hopefully) work with my ancient iPaq as well as newer iPaqs (e.g. - the h2215). I couldn't pass up the $30 price. Who knows.

Scott

[Scott R]

Why is plam keeping the slider in the T3 8O it just makes it phisically cumbersome.The slider is there to keep it as short as possible when pocketed. Nevertheless, I'm sure they (or someone) will introduce a 320x480 non-collapsing tablet style PDA sooner rather than later.

Scott

[crass]

This topic is very interesting and I have read all replies so far.
I am also considering getting a new device so I have more than simple "academic" interest in this.
Well I have read extremely well thought (and written) posts here. I agree with many. But my opinion is more herretic.

My first device was a Palm V. I was in love with this PDA. It opened a whole new world to me. Then after some time, I found I could check my email connecting it with my cell phone. I was trying every application out there just to see the limits of my little wonder. Memory was very small so I started deleting things from ROM. Web browsing entered my daily usage. But a monochrome 160x160 device was inadequate and tiresome.
So I decided to make the switch to the ipaq 3630. I was stunned. Big colourful screen, voice recording, multimedia capabilities. Of course the latter require memory. And memory was short. So I decided to add a sleeve and a CF. The thing became a brick. By that time, Bluetooth's call was mesmerizing. So when the 3870 came out, I said this is the dream machine. BT and SD slot. I bought it. Of course I had to change my non BT cellphone too. And nothing was like I thought it would be. BT needs more often sof resets than a government official lies. Bluetooth drains battery like a gigolo drains money from an old lady. Basic PIM functionality is still not here. We need alarms that work people. I simply can't rely on my ipaq for meetings and todos.

While I try to have my ipaq as memory free as I can, I am not satisfied with its response time in any function. Multitasking is great and usefull but it's such a pain. So what the 2215 has to offer me? Well actually the same pattern of upgrading. A liitle snappier processor, a better screen (has anyone seen Clear Type on a 3870?) and smaller size.

So I start considering of going back. My memories of the Palm platform were stable (but not full fledged) PIM functions, amazing battery life but no multimedia. And then I read about the T3. It has voice recording, multimedia, a gorgeous screen, SD slot and very fast performance. I am sold! So I start reading in Palm forums, a lot. A week after the "early adopters's" enthusiasm settles, I read about horrible battery life, SD cards destroyed and rendered useless, DTG native file support losing formatting, the so called multimedia capabilities requiring conversion to pdb etc. Still no multitasking. I need multible browser windows. Why waste time when I can read one page while the others are loading in the background?

IMHO, most of us PPC users here, would be equally (if not more) frustrated with Palm as we are now with MS. Check the Palm forums to see hundreds of T and T2 owners who are felt feeling like beta testers to Palm. In such a short period, Palm has marketed three devices targeted at the same market niche. And now that they have split the handheld and OS divisions they are acting as in the PPC market.
- The upgraded OS is here but it's up to your vendor to offer it to you.
- But you are essentially the same company!
- No we are not. See? Different name.

And lets see how the T3 owners will feel when OS 6.0 is out. Will they be able to upgrade? No one is giving them a straight answer. As for OS 6.0 it remains to see if it will be amazing or just hype. I hope it will be great so it will stir competition.

I am not saying any platform is better. I am just saying that I don't think Palm users are more happy. I just drag and drop any multimedia file on my ipaq et voila. I open email multimedia attachements and run them natively. These are not my core functions. But since the 2215 and the T3 are equally priced why not get more value for my money?
Palm is trying to catch up to the PPC and is losing everything that signified Palm. Simplicity and battery life. I get more work done with a PPC due to tap&hold, due to multitasking. Now Palms are heavier and drain batteries quickly.

I still haven't decided if I'll go with the T3 or the 2215. Lately I am considering of sticking to my device. Perhaps I have fed enough money this industry for slight improvements. And I think this is what frustrates most of us. That the promises from both OS were broken.

[Fishie]

Excellent post Crass, couldnt have said it better myself, in fact I didnt.

[Deslock]

I picked up a Tungsten T3 a few days ago to evaluate. At this point, it's likely I'll be selling my HP2210. I figured I'd post all this here because a lot of people have referred to the T3 in this thread (and much of what I wrote pertains to the topic). It's a small novel, so I used section headings to make it easier to read:

T3 SLIDER
Initially, I thought the slider mechanism was stupid (see my previous posts in the T3 thread), but now I really like it. The T3 is very compact and fits in my pocket (no other 480x320 device does this) and you can set the device to power on and off when the slider opens and closes. It's also easy to quickly pull the T3 out and look something up without opening the slider. It's a surprisingly effective design.

480x320
When I first got the T3, the interface looked a little funny to me... it's obvious when using a lot of the apps that they're derived from a low-res monochrome device. While Palm makes excellent use of a 160x160 screen, they generally don't fit twice as much data on a HVGA screen as PPC does with QVGA (with a few exceptions like spreadsheets and images). And PPC apps tend to be more colorful. However, PalmOS' interface is cleaner, images and text are incredibly sharp, and the T3's seamless lanscape-portrait switching is nothing less than awesome.

PERFORMANCE
Doing most things takes a lot less time on the T3 than on the 2210. Though I noticed that when recalculating large spreadsheets on Palm, you can actually see the cells all refresh (presumably because Spreadsheet-To-Go runs in emulated mode).

TASK-SWITCHING
Re-adjusting to PalmOS' taskswitching wasn't too difficult. If I look up a contact, switch to another app, and then go back to contacts, I have to look it up again... this happened to me once yesterday and I said to myself "Oh yeah, Palm can't do that." But I seldom need to do this (and I could've easily avoided doing it yesterday by simply dialing the phone number before switching apps). More importantly, PalmOS is so responsive, it isn't really bothersome if I do. Having written all that, I know some people do specific tasks that need multitasking on a handheld. Those folks will have to stick with PPC or Linux for now.

Also, I've noticed no skipping with MP3-playback in the background.

FILE SYSTEM
It's stupid that I can't categorize apps on the Palm when they're installed on the SD card. On the other hand, I'm going to install everything into RAM anyway (with 64 MB, I'll only need to use the SD card for data).

Also, I can copy native JPG and MP3 files to the SD card, which is nice. Movies played through Kinoma must be converted, however.

RETRIEVING DATA
The upshot of a task-switching, record-based OS is that I can search through almost every program for information instantly. If I want to look up a note or password somewhere, I don't need to worry about whether I put it in FlexWallet, Word, Excel, or Note (all of which require 4 different searches on PPC). With Palm, the search looks through all the PIM and memo records, spreadsheets, docs, etc... It searches the contents of the spreadsheets and docs too... not just the filenames!

To me, this is *THE* killer app for Palm. You don't have to worry about where you store information on the device... just enter a couple keywords into the record/spreadsheet/whatever and you can easily find it later. I almost didn't switch to PPC because it can't do this.

ENTERING DATA
This is a toss-up, but I actually think I prefer it on the T3. When I switched to PPC, I was mucho impressed with being able to use Letter Recognizer, the on-screen keyboard (and when I got the 2210, Transcriber... however, Transcriber was somewhat cumbersome so I stopped using it).

However, with the T3, input on the Palm has improved. Now I can see my strokes, switch to onscreen keyboard, and switch to full-screen data input. Toggling full-screen input is faster on the Palm (click icon in menu bar) and using it is less problematic. Transcriber is neato, but it's often sluggish and is a pain when you need to click on things on the screen (while PalmOS' on-screen input is painless). It's also easier to select text on the Palm in some situations.

BUTTON PRESSES/SPEED OF TASKS
Adding appointments, contacts, notes, etc... it's all faster with the T3. The GUI takes fewer button presses to do the same things as HP2210.

3RD PARTY SOFTWARE
This used to be one of Palm's biggest strength, but PPC now has a lot of stuff that Palm doesn't. I dunno if either platform really has an advantage here (I think Palm has the edge with freeware, but PPC has the edge with commercial apps.. at least with the robust ones).

In my case, I'm happy to be using a couple apps on the Palm that I never did find for PPC, but I also will have to give up a couple apps that I started using with PPC that don't exist on the Palm.

BATTERY LIFE
This is the T3's biggest weakness (though it doesn't seem to be as bad as some people say). I haven't done a comprehensive test yet, but it's less than my 2210 (and possibly a bit less than my 1910 was, but it seems pretty close to it, depending on usage). I'll definitely be getting a USB-charge cable and probably one of those AA-battery charging packs (not as convenient as a spare battery, but works OK). The good news is these things only cost $5.

STABILITY
I reset the PPC every night to clear out the system memory. However, even with that, I have to soft-reset PPC every 1-2 days (especially with the HP2210) due to a crash. It's really great when I'm talking to someone and I need to look up or enter a phone number:

Me: Embarrassed. "Excuse me, could you wait a moment... my PDA crashed and is rebooting."
Them: Laughing. "What, do you run Windows on that thing?"
Me: Sigh. "Actually, it does."

Additionally, it's irritating to have to wait 23 seconds for it to reboot. My T3 reboots very quickly... and I only know this because I reset it out of curiosity... after 3 days of heavy use, I've had to reset it ZERO times. Keep in mind, I've been installing lots of software too.

VIDEO PLAYBACK
The Kinoma converter is very easy to use, however, quality sucks... DIVX files look much sharper on the 2210. Kinoma appears to use very high compression, so things can get very blocky and ugly during complicated and detailed video sequences.

VOICE MEMOS
Quality is OK, but not great. My HP2210's memos sound better (though I haven't actually done a side-by-side comparison).

AUDIO PLAYBACK
Sounds excellent... just a little better than the HP2210's (though it was good too). No skips or other problems. The built-in player is easy to use, though doesn't have many features.

ALARMS
They work on the T3. It's astonishing that PPC/Windows Mobile still has alarm problems.

SYNCHRONIZATION
Hotsync is fast and painless. Activesync makes me cry.

INSTALLING APPS
It's so easy on the T3. Click on PRC/PDB files. Hotsync. Done. Installing apps with PPC is a pain in the ass. If you install to a card, it goes to the root directory (and gives it an incredibly long and non-descriptive directory name). All those directories then show up in every list in every app that displays directories using PPC's standard method. You cant specify what directory to install to unless you used CABINST. And in order to use that, you have to locate the CAB file, which often involved a backwards process of running the Windows installer and searching for the appropriate CAB for both your program and processor in the C:\program files\microsoft activesync subdirectories. Sometimes this wasn't even possible.

Oh yeah, and then if you have a problem, you have to go through some sort of uninstall process (often for both your PC and the PPC). Absurd.

NOTES/MEMOS
I can store all my notes in the memo program, notes program, Hi-Note, or whatever. With PPC, the notes program is too slow to be usable with more than 100 or so records. I have to use FlexWallet or ListPro, which adds to the time it takes to both enter and retrieve data (see above).

PROFFESIONAL LOOK
Well, I don't really care about this, but the T3 looks cool and professional. The telescoping stylus has a nice weight to it and is quite slick.

FLIP COVER
Why the Hell don't any PPCs come with these things? The flip cover on the T3 works very well.

CONCLUSION
I haven't decided for certain yet, but I'm leaning towards going back to PalmOS with the T3. I initially switched to PPC because I was a little bored with Palm and PPC had a big color screen and fast CPU in a small package. The T3 is a little heavier than the HP2210, but it's still small enough to be pocketable. It's not perfect, but it's probably the best handheld computer I've used yet.

[ultach]

I would suggest that the lack of inovation on the PPC side
is due to the OS licensing and product definition MS is seeking.
Microsoft wants a commodity. They want to make handhelds
like PCs, no customization of OS required.

Palm, however, is willing to work with OEMs so that their
OS can be customized very very radically. Palm is willing
to go the extra mile with companies like Garmin www.garmin.com
and come up with something new and different. This
requires a degree of OS customziation that MS is not
willing to support.

Sean

[ultach]

Why is plam keeping the slider in the T3 8O it just makes it phisically cumbersome.The slider is there to keep it as short as possible when pocketed. Nevertheless, I'm sure they (or someone) will introduce a 320x480 non-collapsing tablet style PDA sooner rather than later.

Scott

Umm, you have heard of the iQue3600? :-)

http://www.garmin.com/products/iQue3600/

320x480

Sean

[Scott R]

Umm, you have heard of the iQue3600? :-)Yes, I'm very familiar with it. In fact I like the looks of it a lot, since GPS is one of the things I'm dying to do. I didn't mention it in response to his post because any time anyone responds with the iQue when someone goes on a rant at PIC about wanting a tablet PDA with virtual Graffiti, people quickly respond with, "Yeah, but that has a GPS which I don't want/need and don't want to pay extra for."

Scott

[huangzhinong]

Umm, you have heard of the iQue3600? :-)Yes, I'm very familiar with it. In fact I like the looks of it a lot, since GPS is one of the things I'm dying to do. I didn't mention it in response to his post because any time anyone responds with the iQue when someone goes on a rant at PIC about wanting a tablet PDA with virtual Graffiti, people quickly respond with, "Yeah, but that has a GPS which I don't want/need and don't want to pay extra for."

Scott

What about H1900 size PPC with GPS.
http://www.pconline.com.cn/digital/textlib/pda/p01/10309/pic/030924_mio_02.jpg

[roberto_torres]

Why is plam keeping the slider in the T3 8O it just makes it phisically cumbersome.The slider is there to keep it as short as possible when pocketed. Nevertheless, I'm sure they (or someone) will introduce a 320x480 non-collapsing tablet style PDA sooner rather than later.

Scott

That's what most people say, but the Sony Clie SJ-3x series is .1 inch shorter than a closed Tungstens and does not need the slider.

[roberto_torres]

I would suggest that the lack of inovation on the PPC side
is due to the OS licensing and product definition MS is seeking.
Microsoft wants a commodity. They want to make handhelds
like PCs, no customization of OS required.

Palm, however, is willing to work with OEMs so that their
OS can be customized very very radically. Palm is willing
to go the extra mile with companies like Garmin www.garmin.com
and come up with something new and different. This
requires a degree of OS customziation that MS is not
willing to support.

Sean

The interesting thing is that with all that customatization all programs are still compatible even with the different resolutions.

By the way here is a thought on multiple resolutions.

For years PPC users have critisized Palm OS for not having support for different resolutions, yet there are 320x320, 160x160, 160x180, 320x480 and 320x240 resolutions for palm.

PPC has support for multiple resolution yet all of them have 320x240.

I don't get it :frusty:

[Dom]

Feeling guilty now. Truth is Pocket PC is STILL my favorite. I am just totally frustrated by the form factor, pace of development, and the fact none of these competing OS/Hardware manufacturers will talk to eachother (I realise that can perhaps never happen). Maybe my being negative is only making matters worse ...
Dom

[Dom]

PS As a Pocket PC, Palm and Symbian user I just checked for similar threads on the equivalents of "PocketPCThoughts" for these devices and guess what ? NOBODY is truly happy with their devices LOL . The Symbian users are getting Palms etc :)
Wierd !
Anybody have an explanation ?
Dom

[ultach]

PS As a Pocket PC, Palm and Symbian user I just checked for similar threads on the equivalents of "PocketPCThoughts" for these devices and guess what ? NOBODY is truly happy with their devices LOL . The Symbian users are getting Palms etc :)
Wierd !
Anybody have an explanation ?
Dom

The grass is always greener on the other side...But in reality
it's just different, not nescessarily better.

[drac]

the Sony Clie SJ-3x series is .1 inch shorter than a closed Tungstens and does not need the slider.
Yeah, but it also has a significantly smaller screen than even the T/T2, as well as much smaller front controls.

The Tungsten slider design allows the same small size, but with front controls that are considered generally useable, as opposed to front size controls that garner widespread scorn.

The SJ33 is a beautiful device, with a wonderful integrated flip cover, but the smaller screen and front buttons are considered by many to be its weak point.

[theone3]

Palm is committed to Palm. Is Microsoft as committed to Pocket PC ? I suspect it is more of a sideline whereas Palm has everything to lose.
DomAgreed.

Not so related, I guess, but this is the biggest issue in the handheld world at the moment.

[Pocket PC Dubai]

With the release of T3 we might see fierce competition in this market. However I am not complaining or criticizing Microsoft because I am one of those PDA Phone Edition fans. You won’t find a decent Palm device in this category, not even the Treo 600! It is not even near the XDA II, iPAQ h6000 and Axim X7. I don’t have to worry since my next PDA is a converged device. And Pocket PC rulez in this category.

[Scott R]

Yeah, but it also has a significantly smaller screen than even the T/T2, as well as much smaller front controls.

The Tungsten slider design allows the same small size, but with front controls that are considered generally useable, as opposed to front size controls that garner widespread scorn.

The SJ33 is a beautiful device, with a wonderful integrated flip cover, but the smaller screen and front buttons are considered by many to be its weak point.You beat me to responding, drac. This is what the slider buys you. A small travel size but with good buttons, a large D-Pad, and a good sized screen. People want to have their cake and eat it, too. If palmOne dropped the slider but kept the screen and D-Pad the same size, people would complain that it was too big. If they shrunk the screen and dropped the D-Pad, people would complain about that.

Having said that, I would like to see someone make a PDA that was, for all intents and purposes, all screen with no hard buttons (on the front, anyway - they could always add a scroll wheel and a couple buttons to the side).

Scott

[Scott R]

You won’t find a decent Palm device in this category, not even the Treo 600! It is not even near the XDA II, iPAQ h6000 and Axim X7. I don’t have to worry since my next PDA is a converged device. And Pocket PC rulez in this category.That's hardly a fair comparison considering the devices you cited aren't even out yet, and a couple of them are little more than rumors at this point.

I've never liked not having some sort of hard buttons on a phone device. I had a virtual keypad on my Samsung i300 and didn't like it. Even my Treo 300's tiny numeric keypad is bearable. YMMV.

Scott

[Pocket PC Dubai]

That's hardly a fair comparison considering the devices you cited aren't even out yet, and a couple of them are little more than rumors at this point.

I've never liked not having some sort of hard buttons on a phone device. I had a virtual keypad on my Samsung i300 and didn't like it. Even my Treo 300's tiny numeric keypad is bearable. YMMV.

Scott

Let us just consider the XDA II at this point, which is really soon to be released. (http://www.o2.co.uk/productsservices/xda2/0,,174,00.html) I can live with the touch screen in order to have a fully featured PPC Phone. I don’t see Palm are any close enough to be comparable in this category. Things could be more promising after the HS-Palm merger. Have to wait and see!

[dh]

You won’t find a decent Palm device in this category, not even the Treo 600! It is not even near the XDA II, iPAQ h6000 and Axim X7. I don’t have to worry since my next PDA is a converged device. And Pocket PC rulez in this category.That's hardly a fair comparison considering the devices you cited aren't even out yet, and a couple of them are little more than rumors at this point.

I've never liked not having some sort of hard buttons on a phone device. I had a virtual keypad on my Samsung i300 and didn't like it. Even my Treo 300's tiny numeric keypad is bearable. YMMV.

Scott
Scott said just what I was thinking. The Treo 600 is soon to be on the market and will have both GSM and CDMA versions. XDAII will arrive in the US at some point, the HP 6000 series and Dell X7 (especially the X7) maybe never.

PPCPE is never going to be a full featured PPC until there is one available with two card slots, plus it is too big to become popular as a phone.

I firmly believe that the way forward in converged devices is going to be Palm OS6 (Treo 600 is a good starting point) and Symbian. For the time being I say that seperate phone and PPC is the best solution.

[Deslock]

WARNING FOR T3 USERS:

Some users over at Brighthand have reported that their T3 has rendered their SD cards unusable. It's unclear if the problem only affects Sandisk cards or other brands as well (I've had no problems with my T3 and Lexar 256MB card).

This could be a big fiasco for Palm... you can read more here: http://www.bitsnbolts.com/tungsten_t3.html

[dh]

This seems to be worse than the Dell/Sandisk fiasco.

It would appear that the cards are actually being damaged by the T3. Thank goodness for CF cards. :D

[drac]

Let us just consider the XDA II at this point, which is really soon to be released. I can live with the touch screen in order to have a fully featured PPC Phone. I don’t see Palm are any close enough to be comparable in this category. Things could be more promising after the HS-Palm merger. Have to wait and see!
As with many things, it comes down to personal preference.

I absolutely hate touchscreen buttons. I quite like the promise of the new Treo.

[Pocket PC Dubai]

PPCPE is never going to be a full featured PPC until there is one available with two card slots, plus it is too big to become popular as a phone.

I firmly believe that the way forward in converged devices is going to be Palm OS6 (Treo 600 is a good starting point) and Symbian. For the time being I say that seperate phone and PPC is the best solution.

FYI the XDA II will have a CF I/O card slot as an expansion pack with built in battery. To me SD I/O slot is quit enough, you don’t need to have another CF I/O slot since the device comes with a built in Bluetooth, camera and GSM/GPRS module. If you intend to add a Wifi SD card you don’t have to worry about memory since it comes with 64MB ROM &128MB RAM.

The Treo 600 has low quality small screen, not usable as a PDA screen. I don’t accept less than 3.5” to work with. The Treo 600 doesn’t measure up to the features of the XDA II, its more like a Smartphone. Maybe you dislike this form factor, but you must agree that there is a product for every market. In the end this is just a matter of personal preference and people in my group will be lucky to have the new PPCPEs. How many Palm devices can compete in this category! With the release of the T3 they’ve done a great job. But for them there is still another mountain to climb.

Just my thoughts

[drac]

Yeah- though the fanatics from either side will always try to paint the issue as one of obvious superiority of one side over another, it always comes down to personal preferences.

My impression is that the small screen of the treo allows smaller size and longer battery life- a worthwhile tradeoff for a phone for me, though not for some others.

[Scott R]

drac and Spy Eagle's points are both valid as these two devices appeal to two different types of user. I also agree that a device doesn't need a CF slot if it has SDIO, built-in long-range wireless (e.g. - CDMA or GSM/GPRS), and Bluetooth. That's quite a bit of functionality right there.

Getting OT...I like the features of the XDA II but don't like that they kept the same form factor and button layout and I don't like the slippery design. I want something that has some grip to it. Honestly, I like the design of that PPCPE device with the flip-up/down hard numeric keypad (a la the old Kyocera 6035 Palm OS phone) but I haven't heard any rumors of it making its way to the US. With the XDA's button layout, you really can't do any sort of one-handed dialing with it. At least my Samsung i300 had an up/down toggle and "select" button on the left which allowed me to scroll through my contacts and select one one-handed. Of course, this still can be a pain if you have a lot of contacts (the workaround being setting up a category just for people you call often). The Treo 300's tiny buttons bother me, but I love that I can use the thumbboard to type "EHAN" and be immediately ready to crank call Ed Hansberry. ;) This is a good example of how a full QWERTY thumbboard can actually be an improvement over a standard phone keypad for phone functionality.

Scott

[TimFountain]

One thing that MS need to address in the next release is the management of network and dialup connections.

I am now on my 3rd PocketPC (Jornada-548, IPAQ-3660, IPAQ-2215) and I was hoping WM2003 would address the networking issues. To me, and apparently most other people if the number of questions is true, the management of work/internet settings is illogical, not intuitive and to be honest downright cryptic. Come on MS, have a proper set of profiles for each connection method, and a decent way to view/edit the current configuration. The amount of time and effort it took to get my 2215 and Laptop to sync via wireless was totally unacceptable, and was capped off by a general lack of helpfiles.
:(

[Orincarnia]

i think the next innovation for PPC will be with sony, i heard something several times about the NX-90, it will have all the aspects of the current NX-80 but it will be a PPC,

if thats true, then looks like i'll be visiting here more cause i'm stuck with sony but i've always liked the ease PPC (no direct places to put stuff) and besides the fact that i have to have memory stick doens't help either

[SandersP]

No sane gadget users will buy Sony. The memory stick alone should make any geek shudders. Sony is making orgnizer/walkman, not pocketable computer. They will shove you a new model and propietary players/peripherals every time they got a chance. And it won't be compatible between model to model either mind you.

[drac]

I'm not a lover of Sony products myself- for just the reasons you cite- but I know several happy gadget-loving, clie-clutching, satisfied customers.

I'm not sure what about their satisfaction is supposed to mark them as being insane... ;)

[Scott R]

I don't like Sony's Memorystick format, either. But, like any flaw, I can overlook it if the other features and price-point are compelling enough. Right now, for instance, they just released their new TJ-series. They have a $249 model that competes with palmOne's $199 Tungsten E. At first glance it seems like the TE is the clear winner, but there are some compelling things about the TJ35 as well, such as partial-aluminum construction, compatibility with many CLIE peripherals (the Tungsten E dropped palmOne's Universal Connector), and a faster processor. The SDIO on the Tungsten E is a big advantage, but Sony's more useful connector scores points as well (speaking as one who just enjoyed a day of using a GPS with my old iPaq 3630 and appreciates the need for occasionally connecting things via the serial connector).

Scott

[Jonathon Watkins]

WARNING FOR T3 USERS:

Some users over at Brighthand have reported that their T3 has rendered their SD cards unusable. It's unclear if the problem only affects Sandisk cards or other brands as well.

Well, my REPLACEMENT Sandisk 256Mb SD card just died last week and now my Sandisk 1Gb CF card died as well. The SD was used in my Axim and the CF was in my camera. NOT happy with Sandisk at all.

Personally I think Jason has hit a raw nerve here. It seems that most of us are fed up with the slow pace of innovation and are annoyed about seeing Palm going from being seriously behind to slightly ahead in the tech tricks race.

Trouble is, how long will it take MS to respond…..?

[lapchinj]

...The SD was used in my Axim and the CF was in my camera. NOT happy with Sandisk at all...

I also lost a Sandisk card and I wouldn't buy another one. It's the only card I ever lost so I thought is was a fluke but from your post and other people I speak to it seems like Sandisk is having a problem with their media.

I also saw from the forums here that the Sandisk card is not so great in speed either. So I bought a Lexar 256 mb Pro CF card (it says 40x). It cost more but I'm very happy with it. I keep all my apps on the CF card and they seem to load pretty fast but I can't say if it's faster than others (I never really had time to do a comparison). It does make a very big difference when I'm taking pictures with my digital camera though.


...Personally I think Jason has hit a raw nerve here. It seems that most of us are fed up with the slow pace of innovation ...

Trouble is, how long will it take MS to respond…..?

I for one agree. I haven't owned a Palm PDA for 2-1/2 years (I do program for them though) but the T3 is tempting. It couldn't replace my iPAQ since the Palm platform still lacks the apps.

Jeff -

[shawnc]

Well, my REPLACEMENT Sandisk 256Mb SD card just died last week and now my Sandisk 1Gb CF card died as well. The SD was used in my Axim and the CF was in my camera. NOT happy with Sandisk at all.

Sorry to hear about your cards. I'm also heavily invested in Sandisk. 1G CF, 512MB, 256MB, and 128MB SD cards. So far, no problem with any of them with my Axim, though I have a sinking suspicion that my luck is about to run out. :takethat:

[Jonathon Watkins]

Sorry to hear about your cards. I'm also heavily invested in Sandisk. 1G CF, 512MB, 256MB, and 128MB SD cards. So far, no problem with any of them with my Axim, though I have a sinking suspicion that my luck is about to run out. :takethat:

Just keep taking backups of the contents. :| I learned that the hard way.

I do wonder how much of this problem is Sandisk's fault and how much is Palm's.......

[tthiel]

Hah, when you deal with Microsoft prepare to get screwed at their whim. They are trying to sell Tablet PC's (which noone seems to want) and will not improve the Pocket PC for fear of it damaging the non-existent Tablet PC sales. Lot's of people are playing videao and MP3's on their Plams with no rpoblem especuilly the Tungsten 3 so I don't know whats wrong with Palm multiasking. As far as Pocket PC being more "flexible and powerful" you'll have to be more specific because I don't see it. Nice hardware, lousy OS, jsut like every other PC, handheld or not.

The three most-discussed stories of the past week ("Palm Tungsten 3 Reviews", "Why I Miss My Palm III", and "Toshiba: 'The PocketPC market is pretty much dead.' ") all have something in common: the Palm camp is moving fast, and the Pocket PC camp is not.

For the longest time, back in the days of the Palm-size PC, Windows CE-based PDAs have had hardware that pushes the envelope. While Palm devices languished at a puny 160 x 160, Pocket PCs had a mighty 320 x 240 resolution, resulting in a much nicer display. Then Sony went to 320 x 320...and the Pocket PC stayed the same. The new Palm Tungsten 3 offers 320 x 480 resolution and instant landscape mode. For those keeping score, that's double the resolution of the Pocket PC. When I look at Palm units with that resolution, there's no denying it: the crispness of the text, and quite often the quality of the screens, is a marked improvement over what we have in the Pocket PC camp. Since back in late 2001, Pocket PC owners have been begging Microsoft for a bump in resolution. We're now coming up on the end of 2003, and still we sit at 320 x 240. And when you consider that Windows Mobile 2003 just came out a few months ago, given Microsoft's release cycle, it will be late 2004 before we see anything changed. How did Microsoft fail to see this coming when their users have been yelling about it for three years?

And performance? Don't even get me started on performance - the Pocket PC OS is more flexible and powerful than the Palm OS, but as anyone who has used a Zire 71 can tell you, the responsiveness of it will put any Pocket PC to shame. Remember though that DOS was fast too - when Palm finally releases a true multi-tasking OS, will they be able to maintain that snappy performance? We'll see what happens.

While there's been some consolidation and thinning about the Palm ranks (Handera faded away, Handspring is being acquired by Palm), it's obvious that Palm is no longer sitting on their hands, riding out the popularity of their OS as they once did. The Pocket PC camp has been chipping away at Palm's market share, and in some countries such as Australia, the Pocket PC has taken the lead. HP is innovating hard, but they seem to be the only truly creative OEM on the Pocket PC side of things, while companies like Gateway and JVC can't seem to commit to a course of action. Meanwhile, Palm, Sony, and Handspring have been releasing new devices with hardware that pushes the envelope of mobile computing.

The Pocket PC once held the crown as the most innovative and cutting-edge platform in both hardware and software, and I want to see it re-take that crown from Palm. Microsoft needs to drop the hammer and make the next version of Windows Mobile a tangible improvement over what we have now - a leap like Windows XP was over Windows ME, not a Windows 98 to Windows 98 SE, which is what it feels like we've been seeing for the past two versions. I grow tired of hearing "We didn't have the resource to implement that feature...". Tap into some of that multi-billion dollar war chest and make it happen! Pocket PC OEMs need to get creative, win the hearts and minds of consumers with sexy and innovative designs, and make Pocket PC hardware the most cutting-edge PDA platform out there.

If it doesn't happen, those of us on the Pocket PC side of the fence may just grow tired of feeling like second-class mobile device citizens and look to another platform with a stronger vision for the future. No, the sky is not falling in on the Pocket PC camp, but Palm has sprinted ahead in some key areas, and Microsoft and most of their OEM partners seem to be still strolling along...not realizing that the race is now on.

[tthiel]

The 160X160 screen makes the Treo 600 a non-starter for me but at least I wouldn't have to reboot my phone as with a Pocket PC phone.

PPCPE is never going to be a full featured PPC until there is one available with two card slots, plus it is too big to become popular as a phone.

I firmly believe that the way forward in converged devices is going to be Palm OS6 (Treo 600 is a good starting point) and Symbian. For the time being I say that seperate phone and PPC is the best solution.

FYI the XDA II will have a CF I/O card slot as an expansion pack with built in battery. To me SD I/O slot is quit enough, you don’t need to have another CF I/O slot since the device comes with a built in Bluetooth, camera and GSM/GPRS module. If you intend to add a Wifi SD card you don’t have to worry about memory since it comes with 64MB ROM &128MB RAM.

The Treo 600 has low quality small screen, not usable as a PDA screen. I don’t accept less than 3.5” to work with. The Treo 600 doesn’t measure up to the features of the XDA II, its more like a Smartphone. Maybe you dislike this form factor, but you must agree that there is a product for every market. In the end this is just a matter of personal preference and people in my group will be lucky to have the new PPCPEs. How many Palm devices can compete in this category! With the release of the T3 they’ve done a great job. But for them there is still another mountain to climb.

Just my thoughts

[dh]

The 160X160 screen makes the Treo 600 a non-starter for me but at least I wouldn't have to reboot my phone as with a Pocket PC phone.

PPCPE is never going to be a full featured PPC until there is one available with two card slots, plus it is too big to become popular as a phone.

I firmly believe that the way forward in converged devices is going to be Palm OS6 (Treo 600 is a good starting point) and Symbian. For the time being I say that seperate phone and PPC is the best solution.

FYI the XDA II will have a CF I/O card slot as an expansion pack with built in battery. To me SD I/O slot is quit enough, you don’t need to have another CF I/O slot since the device comes with a built in Bluetooth, camera and GSM/GPRS module. If you intend to add a Wifi SD card you don’t have to worry about memory since it comes with 64MB ROM &128MB RAM.

The Treo 600 has low quality small screen, not usable as a PDA screen. I don’t accept less than 3.5” to work with. The Treo 600 doesn’t measure up to the features of the XDA II, its more like a Smartphone. Maybe you dislike this form factor, but you must agree that there is a product for every market. In the end this is just a matter of personal preference and people in my group will be lucky to have the new PPCPEs. How many Palm devices can compete in this category! With the release of the T3 they’ve done a great job. But for them there is still another mountain to climb.

Just my thoughts

As someone somewhere mentioned, it's a 2003 device with a 1997 screen. Roll on the Treo 650, POS6 + 320 x 320 screen.

[drac]

phones had colour screens in 1997??

[Ed Hansberry]

phones had colour screens in 1997??Green is a color. :lol:

[RobertMcDonald]

I'm sorry, but I really, really don't see what the big deal is with Palm. Having not bought either a PPC or a Palm yet, I've been looking at them for a while (it doesn't hurt that I work at Office Depot and get to play with them a lot :) ).

I dislike the usability of the Palm OS. The "right-click" feature alone on PPC streamlines many tasks. Further, until the T3 came out, to use the keyboard you had to open another window. (If they can impliment this "software" Graffiti area on all the future Palms, resolution be damned, it'll be a huge improvement.)

As for resolution, when playing with my favorite PPC (the iPaq 1945), I've never noticed (or cared) what resolution it was running. I love the size, the weight, the feel, and the OS on the 1945. It'd be perfect except for its price and I have no use for Bluetooth. Oh, wait, there's the 1935 and it's just that! Sure, the processor's a bit slower, but the responsiveness is bound to be enough for me. Yes, the Zire71 is impressively quick, but I wouldn't fret over it. Not when there's such a better interface to be had with PPCs. And quite a few of my customers have agreed (though the Tungsten E will, admittedly, dent the 1945's sales, I'm sure).

As for the $200 Tungsten E... Well, if you use the $50 MIR (God, I hate MIRs), the iPaq 1935 is the same price. The Tungsten E is a nice little Palm, but the old "hardware" Graffiti area is irritating (not to mention Graffiti itself, though Graffiti2 is a huge improvement), the whole thing feels very cheap, and for some reason the Calculator is absent from the one I setup at work (among many, many other things). Maybe it needs to be installed (although, why? the calculator isn't exactly a complex program), I don't know. Anyway, it hasn't swayed me from wanting an iPaq 1935 as soon as I can justify plopping down $250 (or we get one in the store). Especially because, as I mentioned, the Tungsten E feels really, really cheap. The unit lacks that study feel of the 1945 or even the slick-plastic Zire71. A big minus, in my book.

Then there's the Tungsten T3: admittedly the coolest Palm to date. It doesn't, however, impress me a whole lot (heck the Tungsten C's probably a better unit except for the outrageous price). First, the wireless capabilities are minimal because it's Bluetooth (and wireless to the average person means 802.11b... or nothing because they don't need it). Second, if you open and rotate it, the "feel" is all wrong--the landscape mode might be a little more usable graphics-wise, but the device becomes more awkward to hold. Like the first Tungsten's opening capability, it's kind of a nifty feature, but I wouldn't pay an extra dime for it. Hell, I'd probably never use it, to be honest.

The only thing I'd like to see improved on the future upgrade to HP's awesome 1900-series is an OEM keyboard (WTF was with switching the connector around from the other iPaqs?), perhaps more battery life, and maybe an even faster processor without increaseing the price. I'm honestly not concerned about the resolution, as the display looks quite nice to me (maybe you multimedia and web-surfing guys need the extra resolution, though). Sure, it's got a slightly green hue to it, but all the transflexive Palms have that slightly odd blue hue to them, so it's a draw to me.

I'm still waiting to get an iPaq 1935--Palm still has nothing to offer me.

[drac]

You do realise that others will have exactly the opposite reaction for the same reasons, right?

That to them, PPC's will just feel wrong?

That to them, wireless means bluetooth?

That to them, Graffiti2 might be a huge step backwards?

That to them, the (to them, superior) PalmOS interface is vastly less irritating?

That to them, the quicker responsiveness, of PalmOS devices is a huge boon?



I've never worked in an area with 802.11x., and I certainly don't have it at home. What use would Wi-Fi be to someone like me?



Now don't get me wrong- I'm certainly not bashing your preferences- but I think that your post gives the appearance of falling into a cardinal error, and one that is responsible for much PDA "warfare"; the seeming confusion of personal preference with objective superiority/ inferiority.


I'm careful to say "appearance" and "seeming", though, because I really can't be sure... I'm not a mind reader, here!



I will agree with you in that I find the 19xx series to be among the most appealing of PDA's in form factor, except for the buttons, which I don't like.


I'm curious to know what you found was cheap-feeling about the T|E. My impression from reading the reviews was, and I quote one (http://www.the-gadgeteer.com/tungsten-te-review.html):

"Just looking at the [T|E] through the package, I was sure that it was going to be a light weight and cheap feeling device. I'm happy to report that I was wrong on both accounts.

[...] the new Tungsten|E [...] has a nice shape and weight to it that makes it comfortable to hold and use. It is a very solid device and passed the Gadgeteer Creak Test with flying colors."

I've never held one and I'm not in a position to contradict you- I just want more details of the basis for your judgement.

[Prevost]

You do realise that others will have exactly the opposite reaction for the same reasons, right?
...
Now don't get me wrong- I'm certainly not bashing your preferences- but I think that your post gives the appearance of falling into a cardinal error, and one that is responsible for much PDA "warfare"; the seeming confusion of personal preference with objective superiority/ inferiority.
...
I've never held one and I'm not in a position to contradict you- I just want more details of the basis for your judgement.

Agree!!!

Sorry Robert, but saying you play this devices a lot since you work in Office Depot tells any reader that your opinion is that one out of an authority; you are saying at the same time you are not since you despise what drac just said, confusing "personal preference with objective superiority/inferiority". It's the same attitude some threads here have critizised on some "reviews" that are clearly biased from the start, but towards Palm.

BTW, I don't know if landscape mode is good implemented or bad implemented, if the handheld is easy or hard to grab this way (I feel it'll be difficult, too), but what I DO know is, people here is :drool: for it!

[roberto_torres]

Don't take offence but ... maybe all the people here are not the type of users that Microsoft is now targetting. Originally they needed you to enthuse and promote but if they're aiming at businesses rather than consumers ... I've felt this for ages. But I am deluded and high on caffeine/pepsi/nicotine.
Dom

If MS is aimed at business why they don't do something with Pocket Office?
The problem with P office is not the functionality on the PPC but that it destroys document formatting.

Functionallity on Documents to go for Palm is almost the same but it keeps documents intact.

[roberto_torres]

This is a common mistake for palm users: Not all features show up in a single unit.

Steve bush in brighthand.com has said the native word support in Palm T3(DTG) is still far away than acceptable, so don't use this evidence.

Palmer said a few years ago:

Palm is smaller
Palm apps is much more than PPC and most of them are free
Palm interface is simple
Palm is cheaper
Palm's battery is good for 2 month

I didn't see any of them show up in T3 review.
But I own a T3 and I love it too.

So say and argue reasonablely.

Still if you compare palm handhelds with PPC that have similar features (same processor, same RAM, bluethoot)

Palm T3 is smaller than PPC based on the same Xscale 400mhz (4 inch long when closed)
Still Palm OS has more programs (check out Datebk5 much better than PI and AF)
The interface continues to be the same as the one on the first Palm Pilot, I don't get why you consider it to be more complex.
T3 compared to the similar Ipaq is $300 less.
T3 lasts the same as a 400mhz Ipaq but it has higher resolution and smaller size, want a high battery life get a Tungsten C (similar size to teh Ipaq 3 times the battery).

[Ed Hansberry]

T3 compared to the similar Ipaq is $300 less.

The only iPAQ that could possibley cost $300 more than a T3 has built in WiFi, biometric security, 128MB of RAM, 20+MB ROM file stores and the ability to use compact flash and PCMCIA cards via expansion packs. :confused totally:

[marcelol]

having now held the palm t|3 and played with it a bit, its really nothing special and the OS is so primitive, its hard to imagine going back. the stiff slider is a pain in the butt too. so there's still room for PPC to make a comeback. but after OS 6, who knows?

You must be kidding. The screen on the T3 is phenomenal. I have a couple of palms and now the PPC Phone Edition ( looking forward to the next ver coming up ). But I gotta tell ya..the screen on the T3 is beautiful. And as for the "slider", do you have big fingers or something ? The unit I used was very smooth.

Still, I SERIOUSLY think that Toshiba needs to "get with it", and HP needs to come out with more reasonably price dual connectivity ( WiFI and BT ) iPaq's.

[svblime]

I've been a ppc user since the IPAQ 3600 and never used a Palm before, but when the T3 came out with the super big screen and super small form factor I had to sell my HP2210 and get a T3. The screen and the resolution is really what got me to switch. I don't necessarily like the palm interface and prefer Windows way of doing things, but I gotta say that palm's os is very user friendly. It didn't take me very long to pick up on how to go about doing things on it. I do hate, more like despise the fact that there is no multi-tasking, but there are other factors that balance it out. I love the fact that I can web browse (also docs) like a champ with my T3. No scrolling side to side, instantaneous full and landscape screen, high res.. seriously it's way too cool. The bluetooth setup to my phone's gprs connection did not take more then a minute even shorter time than the my 2210, I was pleasently surprised. Form factor is another plus too, I thought 2210 was nice in my pocket. Another thing that was a bit annoying is a lack of a built in file browsing utility. I have to install a program just to have my computer recognize my palm device's sd slot to transfer files, but still there is a workaround for that problem. I am not saying that Palm is better then PPC, but no more am I gonna look down on Palm users.. :wink: If someone built a device that had the best of both OSs and hardware specs, I would jump on that right away! So far though, I think Palm has a few more points ahead of PPC. Don't get me wrong, when HP6000 comes out, I am gonna kick the palm to the curb so quick that I probably won't remember I ever owned a Palm.

[bridgecrosser]

I wrote earlier about my use of a Palm T2 since I was having so much troubles with my h5450. A few weeks ago, my wife's Sony Clie 610 finally died. Because I'd be crazy to buy a new PDA with all the promise of smaller and better in the spring/summer of 2004, I gave her my T2 and went back to my iPAQ. I deleted a buggy program I'd been using for some time and have found that it works fairly well now. The 5450 is slower than the Palm, but it's okay for now. I'll be really eager to see what Palm's OS 6 looks like, as well as MS PPC 4.0 .NET. I love the PPC--it just needs an overhaul that goes beyond what OS 2003 brought to the table.