Schools Set Rules On Classroom PDAs

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=528&ncid=528&e=3&u=/ap/20030920/ap_on_hi_te/classroom_gadgets' target='_blank'>http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...assroom_gadgets</a><br /><br /></div>Here's a hairy situation if there's ever been one, especially as handheld devices get more powerful. :)<br /><br />"For better or worse, handheld devices and laptops are now seen as essential back-to-school supplies for students across America. And many schools have only begun to weigh their educational benefits against their potential for text messaging, photo swapping, cheating and chatting. In the heart of Silicon Valley, Palo Alto High School junior Anna Luskin freely uses her cell phone in between classes. Senior Sean Slattery taps notes into his personal digital assistant as his teachers give lectures. And like many other students, senior Stav Raz has memorized her cell phone keypad so she doesn't even have to look at it while quietly messaging friends during class."<br /><br />Of course, back in <i>my</i> day, we didn't have cell phones and PDAs -- the little Sharp databanks were about it. What do you think schools should do regarding PDAs and other potentially connected, virtually-infinite-store devices?

[Thinkingmandavid]

I think it is great that the technology is being used at schools. There will always be situations where students dont use it for notes, etc, but that is to be expected. If they attempt to keep out the technology from the school it will only hurt them. I think in the long run it is good for the students to have access to technology to improve their life styles:) I wish when I was in high school there would have been a big push for all of this. I was out in 87

[Terry]

Wirless PDAs will take hold in schools probably even more than graphing calculators, cell phones and pagers. An I think it's great.

In my high school days we had slide rules (I'm not kidding!). The first HP pocket calculator (RPN) was released when I was a senior. The big question in college...did you wear your TI calculator on your belt or keep it in your backpack? (Mine was in my backpack next to my backup slide rule).

[mhskateboarder]

It is defenitely obvious that there will be people that use the PDA for other things during school. I use mine during computer science lecture (talk about boring, lights dimmed in a comfortable lecture hall seat with the prof going through pages of C code on the projector...ugh) to surf the web in order to stay awake. I'm just glad my school has a wireless network. I do however use my PPC to take notes and keep track of my schedule as well as other appointments. It's a great all around tool which will inevitably find it's place in public schools. In about 5 or 10 years people will probably be saying "I remember when all I had was a TI-83 graphing calculator" much like people now are saying "I remember when all I had was a slide rule" (sorry Terry). By the way, my graphing calculator is in my backpack right next to my 5455. I think i'm finished now.

[Gremmie]

Don't see a problem with it, in high school and below, good teachers will spot those who are disrupted by technology and know when they have cheated on a test. As far as University studies, as long as the student isn't disrupting others they should bear the responsiblity of paying attention or not (just as they have the responsibility to even show up).

[hang5lngbd]

As the technology moves forward so does the cheating. A guy sitting next to me in my physics class in coledge was using his Pocket PC (after showing the teacher the calculator program on it) in order to take a test. He then proceeded to use MSN Messenger to ask a friend for answers for all of the questions that he didn't know.

He got caught and expelled.

The teacher now is afraid of anything PDA related. She has been turned off to the whole idea of them and thinks them nothing more than cheating machines.

There has always been cheating, there always will be. People used to pass notes on paper and they didn't ban that from schools.

I agree that schools need to embrace the technology, but they also need to be aware of the possibilities and enforce the strict penalties.

[maximus]

Ok, I am imagining a student wearing a contact lens equipped with a mini camera to capture and transmit test questions via GPRS/UMTS to a friend at home, and the friend send back the answer, which is directly displayed on the student's contact lens.

That will be awesome.

[Jeff Song]

Of course PDAs will be used to do other things than take notes. However, pen and paper is also used to doodle, and to write notes to friends. I have a PPC in college and I think that its great. I'm organized, and I don't forget to do things, especially with all of my bills (CC, rent, cell phone, electricity, wow that just part of the list :D) I think that most would benefit from having one.

[bjornkeizers]

I read that article on Avantgo two days ago. It's a good piece.

I grew up with these devices. Back when I was starting high school.. this must've been.. 1995 or thereabouts, we didn't even have proper PC's, let alone PDA's. I grew up programming BASIC on a C64 or something like that 8O

Not long after I went to high school, I got my first "organiser" - and that was all it did - it was one of those Sharp databanks, a 10kb one. 10KB! I grew up to a Psion Siena, and got a Palm Pilot Professional somewhere in 1997 I think. I used it all the time, and teachers didn't mind. Most of them had trouble grasping the workings of a full size computer, and here was a thing with a touch screen, that could read books, track my appointments, and store a thousand adresses! Pure magic. This was like something straight out of Star Trek.

I had teachers and students come up to me and asked me what it was.. they were amazed!

Two weeks ago, I started my study of Journalism. Nowadays, I carry around something a bit beefier: an Ipaq 1915. And I still get those looks from classmates and teachers! And I absolutely love that, being the geek that I am :D

Yes, there is some cheating potential when it comes to always on devices which can wirelessly transmit data.. but then, there will always be cunning students. You can't stop it, and I for one think PDA's are a valuable tool in any classroom - they certainly are when I use mine!

[Gremmie]

TI calculators will always remain a powerful tool for cheaters. With a Pocket PC you can't even find a good program to do funcations you need to do when you deceide not to cheat.

[easylife]

My physics teacher has a unique perspective on cheating and I agree with him: do nothing. :D That's right, you take the class so you can learn the material but you're only hurting yourself later on down the road if you cheat. I think schools should take the same approach to technology. :wink:

[easylife]

Ok, I am imagining a student wearing a contact lens equipped with a mini camera to capture and transmit test questions via GPRS/UMTS to a friend at home, and the friend send back the answer, which is directly displayed on the student's contact lens.

That will be awesome.
Wait - aren't you a teacher? (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17490) :lol:

[Ketsugi]

On an interesting and somewhat related sidenote:

An incident involving something similar occurred earlier this year in Singapore. During a remedial class in one of our top junior colleges, a teacher gave a student a shelling and possibly crossed the line in her scolding of the student. One of his classmates sitting near the front of the classroom recorded the entire scolding on his Sony Clié handheld (yes I know it's not a Pocket PC :evil:) and later posted the video file to a small group of friends asking for their opinions. Within a few weeks the video had spread far beyond that circle of people and made headline news. I can't find a permanent link to an article about it, but here's a related link (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/education/story/0,1870,200179,00.html) documenting some responses to the issue.

The resulting debates were on two topics: one regarding the teacher and her teaching methods; the other regarding the use of handhelds (and mobile phones with integrated cameras) in classrooms with specific emphasis on privacy issues. Perhaps the uses of PDAs in classrooms can be more insidious than just for cheating; a teacher could undergo an inspection without the presence of a human inspector, for example.

If you're interested a copy of the scolding video can be found here (http://www.ketsugi.com/extra/hpfterror.zip).

[David Prahl]

I've got a wireless Pocket PC, and I'm a senior in high school. So these are things as I seem them (every day):

--Kids use their TI-83+ graphing calculators for games all the time. I saw a kid playing Tetris while walking down the hall yesterday. Two years ago, in Advanced Algebra, you could look around and see LITERALLY half of the class playing games on their puny TI-83+ calculators. So playing games is not a problem. Students are required to have a TI-83+, so everyone has access to games.

--Cheating will always happen. I see kids cheat with their calculators often. They copy notes into the unit, or write them down and hide them inside the case, which is passed to another student. There are some students who will always cheat, and they'll find a way to do it.

--Very few students have PDAs. I go to a fairly affluent school, but I only know of two or three geeks who have PPCs. There are probably a dozen kids with Palms. So far it's just the nerds (like me :mrgreen:) who have them.

--Having a PPC is incredibly useful. As we all know, PPCs increase productivity. I keep all of my assignments on my PPC, take voice recordings of lectures, and use it to keep organized.

--If there was a rule against PDAs, I'd still bring my Axim. Cell phones and medications are illegal, but kids walk around with phones on their belts (which ring in class), and take medication during class (which is sometimes provided by the teacher)! I have NEVER seen anyone be repremanded for having a phone, so I doubt the PDA-ban will work.

There. I'm done. Now I need to go to Physics! :lol:

[gorkon280]

It's hard to believe, but the PDA is today's graphing caclulator but it had many more uses then the graphing caluclator of the past. My first Graphing calculator was not the venerable Ti-83 but was a HP-28SX. That thing was AWESOME! It slipped out of my backpack so I upgraded to a HP 48SX. EVEN BETTER. The HP 49 series is one of the best graphing caluclators out now. My favorite function on that one was the matrix solver! WHOO HOO! Anyway, PDA's have yet to have a good graphing setup like the calculators have. Hard to believe it but a TI-83 just might become todays 4 banger (we always had to have one of these for tests ...basic add, multiply divide and MAYBE sine, cosine and tangent functions....because of the memory features of the graphing caluclators). The wireless functions are the hard things. I have no problem with them using it during class...even for instant messaging.....but with laptops, listenign for key clicks is stupid because if you here someone tapping away at the keyboard they could be taking notes. I always wanted to do that when I was in college but I was never able to get a laptop. The devices should all be PUT AWAY during a test. The wireless functions make it very easy to cheat.

[Jon Westfall]

My highschool was ultra-paranoid technology wise. In an Algebra II class I was told that I couldn't use a graphing calculator because "not all the kids can afford to purchase one"... what a lame reason! The simple fact was that the teacher didn't want to have technology in the classroom that she didn't know how to use! Needless to say, I always had a bit of contraband on me. My Timex Datalink and pager (Pre-palm or ppc days), and later a cell.

If you noticed the post this morning on the Timex datalinks, you'll see that I eagerly bought a new one. I had a friend who also had a datalink back in the day, and he used it to store chemical formulas as the names for fake people. Our chem. teacher never saw hime punching away at his watch during tests, and he did quite a bit better than lazy old me who didn't program them in.

Cheating with ALWAYS be an issue. Anything short of stripping kids down to check for any tatoos cheat-sheets and requiring a procter per test taker will be ineffective. While taking the GRE recently, I had to put all my gear (PPCPE, keys (Who the heck could cheat with their car keys???), wallet) in a locker before the test, however I was able to keep my watch because of the time constraints on the test. With a datalink, a cheater could use this to their advantage as well.

[sebringal]

In my high school days we had slide rules

Me too! It's great to know I'm not the only one!

I love my PPC, and I use it in class; of course, I'm the teacher!

Even before I got my first PPC a few weeks ago I was already wondering about this. The intermediate algebra class I teach for the area junior college will require use of TI-83+'s next semester, and I know there will be a potential for dishonesty there. That calculator will do many of things that students at that level of algebra are just learning and should be demonstrating their knowledge of on tests.

But what potential! When I think of all the stuff we used to haul around that can be on the PPC! Not just calculators, but periodic tables and all kinds of other references...I kinda wish I was doing the school thing all over again, so I could do it with all the new technology!

(But sometimes I miss my slide rule!) :)

[Steven Cedrone]

I had to take a test last week...

When I was done, the Prof wanted to know why I did all of my calculations by hand while others were using a calculator. I explained to him that the only calculator I had brought with me was my Pocket PC, and that I didn't want any doubt as to whether or not I was cheating on the test...

Then he asked me what a Pocket PC was... :roll:

Steve

[Kati Compton]

TI calculators will always remain a powerful tool for cheaters. With a Pocket PC you can't even find a good program to do funcations you need to do when you deceide not to cheat.
In a number of classes I took we weren't allowed to bring TI graphing calculators. Calculators had to be approved by the teacher before every test.

[Kati Compton]

When I was done, the Prof wanted to know why I did all of my calculations by hand while others were using a calculator. I explained to him that the only calculator I had brought with me was my Pocket PC, and that I didn't want any doubt as to whether or not I was cheating on the test...

You should have gotten extra credit. :)

[bkerrins]

Being a graduate of Palo Alto High myself ('81), I think it's great those kids have the use of technology. There should be little kiosks set up on campus to download assignments, school schedules, the school paper. We need to deal with cheating on an idividual basis, not punish and limit all users just based on potential to cheat.

[Palmguy]

We aren't allowed to use graphing calculators (or anything else programmable for that matter, including PPCs) on quizzes or tests in my calculus, chem, and econ classes.

Any time else, PPCs are allowed/accepted at my university. I used my iPAQ occasionally in high school, but I didn't even try to use it on a test. Didn't want teacher getting nervous.

[guinness]

When I was in HS, I didn't get a graphing calc until my senior year (1998), didn't really need until I got more adv. math and science classes. In college, I used my TI-86, replaced that with a 92+, replaced that with an 89, since the 92 had a KB (great for note taking though), and also bought a HP 48SX and GX since I'm a gadget freak. I had 2 PDA's during college, an Avigo and the Axim, but in most classes, I could only use the 89, some classes, I still had to everything by hand, with a simple scientific calc. Even in some senior-level classes, the best technology wouldn't do much, since the professors would ask more concept questions than brute-force calculations, this was true for a class such as emag. Technology is good/bad, useful for solving problems that would take forever, but hurtfull if you rely on it too much.

[David Prahl]

public static void main (String[] args)
{

public Flame
{
I just can get over how over-priced and outdated the TI-83+ calculator is. For $90-$120 you get these specs:

-Horrible screen! Low res, can easily see pixels.

-CPU is .75 MHz! .75!

-183kb of memory. Come on, TI!

-Serial port for connecting them. Hello!?! Infrared?

-AAA batteries. Li-Ion would last a long time, or even NiMH.

It just doesn't make sense. Texas Instruments OWNS the market, so they can shell out old technology at a high price.

}

}

[guinness]

public static void main (String[] args)
{

public Flame
{
I just can get over how over-priced and outdated the TI-83+ calculator is. For $90-$120 you get these specs:

-Horrible screen! Low res, can easily see pixels.

-CPU is .75 MHz! .75!

-183kb of memory. Come on, TI!

-Serial port for connecting them. Hello!?! Infrared?

-AAA batteries. Li-Ion would last a long time, or even NiMH.

It just doesn't make sense. Texas Instruments OWNS the market, so they can shell out old technology at a high price.

}

}

The 83+ is faster than that; it has a 8 MHz Z80. My 89 uses a 10 MHz MC68000 (think Mac 128k). And if you think that's bad, the HP 48/49 use a 4-bit, 4 MHz Saturn cpu. The HP 48 has IR too, but is slow considering the SX came out in 1989, GX in 1993. And with the right software, it can do many of the things that the 89 can do. I'm not sure if the market really needs anything faster than that.

Also, the 83+/89/92+ are all flash upgradeable, I even have a USB cable for the 89.

[Jon Westfall]

I totally agree that the TI-83 is WAY overpriced. TI hasn't changed their price points since 2000 (at least). I bought an 89 for $149 in Nov. of 99 and its still around that price. Its a wonderful piece of equipment, but doesn't technology come down in price?

The raping of pre-college kids who buy the 83 and then find out that they require an 89 or 92 for upper level college math and engineering courses, is horrible.

[dean_shan]

Technology is great in the classroom. My school loves it. We are just starting to impliment a one to one program where every High School student has a laptop. It has just started I will let you know how it goes.

[ctmagnus]

Ok, I am imagining a student wearing a contact lens equipped with a mini camera to capture and transmit test questions via GPRS/UMTS to a friend at home, and the friend send back the answer, which is directly displayed on the student's contact lens.

:robot:

[ctmagnus]

I got a TI-85 calculator in 1993. It's still on the same set of batteries. :mrgreen:

[easylife]

I personally have a TI-89. I bought it two years ago and I still use it every day. I made a few programs for myself on there to save some time (what are calculators for?), but I really like the symbolic manipulation abilities of it though. Someone that had and knew how to use even a bare-bones 89 (i.e. - no programs) wouldn't need to think at all through Calculus! :D I'm serious - it can solve almost any equation or multiple equations as well as factor, expand, integrate, differentiate, and simplify any equation! Ditch your 83+s my friends and see the true power that the TI-89 offers! :twisted:

On another note, nice Java rant, Dave! 8)

[Jonathan1]

I have a few friends that are still in high school and the ingenuity at cheating is something on the level of Mission Impossible. I know that one of my friends has one of those scanning pens that he takes into a class prior to a test and when they swap papers to grade he uses the pen to scan the answers. Which in turn is sent to his laptop after class and distributed via burned mini CD to his friends during study hall.
Ingenious. Wrong but ingenious. :?

[David Prahl]

Wow, Johnathan1! In the time spent doing all of that they could just study! :lol:

[Jonathan1]

Wow, Johnathan1! In the time spent doing all of that they could just study! :lol:


No kidding. :( Don't think I give him grief for it. At this point I think he's doing it because of the W?BIC! philosophy. That and it looks cool to be able to smuggle the answers out of class. Some day a teacher who knows tech is going to catch on and...

[easylife]

Some day a teacher who knows tech is going to catch on and...
Luckily there aren't many of those! :lol:

[Excalliber]

At my highschool all forms of technology that could possibly be used to cheat are banned in class, except for graphing calculators, which there are no rules on. 8O It's extremely frustrating... It's like we live in the stone age. Any notable form of technology (laptops, PDAs, cell phones... but of course, not graphing calculators :roll: ) are immediately confiscated until the end of the day the first time, and confiscated permanantly after two times with the same teacher.

Of course, this is coming from the state that is 48th in educational funding, if i remeber correctly. :lol: ...

[Rob Alexander]

I'm a college professor and I just don't worry about cheating. I make all of my exams open-everything and let students use any type of technology they want. They can bring their books, bring their calculators, bring their laptops; I don't care. Naturally, that means my students never see T/F, multiple choice or questions that involve simple memorization. Instead, the questions require the student to demonstrate that they genuinely understand the material and are able to use it in practice. They don't have enough time in the exam to read the material for the first time, learn it, and figure out how to apply it, so neither books, nor technology, nor text messages from friends will help an unprepared student. It takes a bit more time to grade a test like that, but it also gives me a much better picture of how well each student is doing, and how well I'm doing with the class as a whole.

[easylife]

If only we had more teachers like you, Rob. :( Nowadays students are required to memorize facts and so forth rather than proving they know the material and understand it and are able to apply it - I'll have a calculator when I grow up; I'll have a PDA, Cell Phone, etc... but I will really be at a loss if I can't actually do anything but memorize. :cry:

[JustinGTP]

In class, I have my T89 Calculator, my HP iPAQ 2215, and my Sony Ericsson T300.

Do I cheat? No, because Im going to screw myself up in the long run. I want to be able to know the material etc, but my PDA is really usefull in Social and English. Im so glad that I bought it.

-Justin.

[Brad Adrian]

I'm a college professor...
I've forgotten, Rob...What do you teach? Your methods sound a lot like my non-parametric statistical analysis class years ago. The exams were so steeped in practical application that if you didn't know WHAT analysis to perform immediately, no amount of cheating could help.

[Tom W.M.]

I will really be at a loss if I can't actually do anything but memorize. :cry:
And I’m at a loss because I can’t…

At my school the rule is, “No student may possess or use and ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATION DEVICE or two-way communications device while on shool grounds or under the supervision of shool personnel unless prior authorization is granted by the building administrator.”

Because another handout also specifically calls a “palm pilot” a communications device, I’m afraid to bring my Casio to school, lest it be confiscated.

On the graphing calculator issue, I have a friend who has played games on his TI-83+ straight through class. The teachers didn't have any idea.

[cypherj]

I am in high school and have a PPC, which I use all day long. My mp3's sure help the 45 min bus ride :cry: go a lot faster every mourning. Then leave the headphones in my locker and use it for notes, to keep track of assignments, and a graphing calculator in math classes.

Most of my teachers when they first saw me using it asked to see it and thought it was a great way to keep track of assignments and thought it would be great if everyone had one. True, it would be very easy to cheat with it by putting notes or fourmulas into it for tests or by getting some help wirelessly, but the few other people in my school I have seen using a PDA used it for honest work and organization. In the future when many people have one, it will be next to impossible to stop kids from cheating and still let them use it at all. I don't know how to stop cheaters other than not letting them use a PDA, but as long as I can still use mine I am happy. :D

[ctmagnus]

my PDA is really usefull in Social and English.

-Justin.

Me in these two classes in high school:

Socials: Go to Socials. Fall asleep (hard). Wake up 55 minutes later. Go to next class.

English: Go to English. Head on desk. Doze for 55 minutes, opening eyes occassionally to see if anything interesting is happening. Wake up 55 minutes later. Go to next class.

Yet I managed to pass these classes with nothing worse than a C, usually in the B range. I remember absolutely nothing of Socials and a tiny bit of English; I attribute the latter to the necessary reading involved.

If only I had a Pocket PC back then...

[maximus]

When I was in high school, I hated photography, intro to journalism, english, mandarin, and social classes. It is so funny to see that those areas are my bread-and-butter these days.

[David Prahl]

When I was in high school, I hated photography, intro to journalism, english, mandarin, and social classes. It is so funny to see that those areas are my bread-and-butter these days.

I'll tell you what's MY bread and butter:

--AP Computer Science

--A+/N+ Networking Certifications

--Advanced webpage design


It's strange that I loathe math but love computers. This might present a problem some day. :lol:

[easylife]

I'll tell you what's MY bread and butter:

--AP Computer Science

--A+/N+ Networking Certifications

--Advanced webpage design


It's strange that I loathe math but love computers. This might present a problem some day. :lol:
Mine 'bread and butter' currently is AP Computer Science AB (2nd year), AP Physics, and AP Calculus BC. I wish my school offered such classes as networking and webpage design... :(

[ctmagnus]

Mine 'bread and butter' currently is AP Computer Science AB (2nd year), AP Physics, and AP Calculus BC.

What're AB and BC in this regard?

[David Prahl]

At least for my tests:

A is only difficult.
AB is harder.
BC (new to me) must be insane.

Keep in mind that all of these are College-level classes.

[easylife]

What're AB and BC in this regard?
I never really got the numbers either, but here is a rundown of what I know:
There are two years of Computer Science: A and AB. A is the first year, AB is the second year. with the A exam you get a semester credit, B a year. Although I didn't list it, I'm going to take the AP Physics C exam, which uses calculus (while the B exam does not). Both these are worth a semester of college credit. Calculus is a bit more confusing; There are two exams, AB and BC. The AB exam is one semester and BC is two. The class I'm taking is actually the first part in prep for the BC exam; next year I will take the exam itself and AP Calc BC part 2 as a class. BC part 1 prepares you for the AB exam as well. I hope I have not added to your confusion (or mine)! :D

[maximus]

And what is AP again ? It is not armor-piercing, right ? :D

[easylife]

And what is AP again ? It is not armor-piercing, right ? :D
It's supposedly short for "Advanced Placement" - courses and tests you can take to get college credit, but your definition works better I think. :wink:

[David Prahl]

Or "anti-personnel". :lol:

added power?

additional pneumatics?

anti-psoriasis? :mrgreen:

[Kati Compton]

It's strange that I loathe math but love computers. This might present a problem some day. :lol:
I used to love math, but when I got to college, math got harder. ;)

[David Prahl]

It's surprising that this thread and the comments on my "The Dog Ate It" review are so numerous. This community is generally older (about 25-35 average), but people are still very interested in the topic.

This thread is getting more attention than the Toshiba e805 and Dell X3 threads COMBINED! 8O

[easylife]

It's surprising that this thread and the comments on my "The Dog Ate It" review are so numerous. This community is generally older (about 25-35 average), but people are still very interested in the topic.

This thread is getting more attention than the Toshiba e805 and Dell X3 threads COMBINED! 8O
I know that this is a very interesting subject for me seeing as I AM a student, but I think the community as a whole is interested because they were (or still are) in school, we each have our own story to tell about technology, cheating, and how easy kids have it now :wink: as well as the integration of technology into the lives of tomorrows technology cultivators. 8)

OK, I know 'cultivators' is a really bad word to use but I'm too tired to think of a better one. :wink:

[ctmagnus]

When I took AP classes (nine years ago - 8O ) there were no AB or BC, afaik. Just AP. In my school there was AP Calculus (which I din't take, as to this day Calculus still eludes me), AP Chemistry, the two nerds in my grade took AP Computer science and I wrote the AP French exam. I would've aced it if it wasn't for that da*n oral part. ;)

[Janak Parekh]

When I took AP classes (nine years ago - 8O ) there were no AB or BC, afaik.
Yes there were, as I took the APs around that time too. It's more likely your school didn't offer them. I took Calc BC (got a 5, woohoo!) and 7 others (Physics, Government, Euro History, American History, English Literature, Spanish, Chemistry). 8O

--janak

[Rob Alexander]

I'm a college professor...
I've forgotten, Rob...What do you teach? Your methods sound a lot like my non-parametric statistical analysis class years ago. The exams were so steeped in practical application that if you didn't know WHAT analysis to perform immediately, no amount of cheating could help.

I teach natural resource economics in an environmental studies program at a small liberal arts college. Some of my classes are technical and some are less so, but they all work the same way. It's not about memorization; it's about understanding. In my mathematical economics classes (at my last university and hopefully again here next year), I always enjoyed telling the class about the old story line from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, about how the answer to the life, the universe and everything is 42. It was a great way to demonstrate the pointlesness of mechanically working through a math problem. If you have to interpretation to give a number, then you have no answer.

[sebringal]

I used to love math, but when I got to college, math got harder. ;) Try having math as your major!

[buzzbo]

Essential??? Come on!

[ctmagnus]

When I took AP classes (nine years ago - 8O ) there were no AB or BC, afaik.

Yes there were, as I took the APs around that time too. It's more likely your school didn't offer them.

--janak

I stand corrected. ;)

I took Calc BC (got a 5, woohoo!)

8O :werenotworthy:

[easylife]

I took Calc BC (got a 5, woohoo!)
Heh. :) According to my math teacher the BC test has gotten a lot harder with the inclusion of graphing calculators. 8O That's why there's two years of prep for it. 8)

[Janak Parekh]

I took Calc BC (got a 5, woohoo!)
Heh. :) According to my math teacher the BC test has gotten a lot harder with the inclusion of graphing calculators. 8O That's why there's two years of prep for it. 8)
I'm not that old. :lol: We used graphing calculators in both pre-Calc and Calc (e.g., two years here as well). Most people had a TI-81, the l33t people had a TI-85. I had, strangely, a Casio that was totally different and I had to learn how to translate everything.

However, I can't remember if we used it on the exam. I have some vague memory of using it on part of it, but I'm not completely sure. I'll add that BC was not trivial at the time, but like Kati, I was good at math in high school (actually, math and physics were my strengths)... but that rapidly changed in college. Space curves and differential equations made Calc BC look like a walk in the park.

--janak

[ctmagnus]

like Kati, I was good at math in high school (actually, math and physics were my strengths)... but that rapidly changed in college.

--janak

What's up with that? :confused totally:

I was the same way. Many first-year courses that peolpe I knew took were almost exactly the same as courses that were offered at my high school, except for the math classes.

[Janak Parekh]

What's up with that? :confused totally:
In my case, it's no surprise. First off, I was in an engineering school, AND I skipped the first semester thanks to the AP, so I jumped straight in second- and third-semester engineering calculus. The first semester wasn't so bad, but the second semester was pretty darn hard (multiple differentiation/integration, space curves, etc. -- it's all blocked out of my memory now ;)) Like I said, high school felt amateurish in comparison 8O

--janak

[Kati Compton]

In my case, it's no surprise. First off, I was in an engineering school, AND I skipped the first semester thanks to the AP, so I jumped straight in second- and third-semester engineering calculus. The first semester wasn't so bad, but the second semester was pretty darn hard (multiple differentiation/integration, space curves, etc. -- it's all blocked out of my memory now ;)) Like I said, high school felt amateurish in comparison 8O

Eigen-who? ;)

[Janak Parekh]

Eigen-who? ;)
Don't remind me! ;) Of all the math topics I've forgotten, eigen(values|vectors) are the one I wish I didn't. :(

--janak

[maximus]

like Kati, I was good at math in high school (actually, math and physics were my strengths)... but that rapidly changed in college.

--janak

What's up with that? :confused totally:


Well, I think that is because the change in priorities. When you are in highschool, your parents forced you to learn, learn and learn. When in college, with more freedom that is assigned to you, the parttime work, the new environment (for those who go to an out-of-town college/university), new people, new things to ponder about (rent, tuition, etc. etc.) ... things get pretty tough to stay on top of some classes.

[Janak Parekh]

things get pretty tough to stay on top of some classes.
Sometimes. Sometimes, it is just plain harder. ;)

--janak

[ctmagnus]

like Kati, I was good at math in high school (actually, math and physics were my strengths)... but that rapidly changed in college.

--janak

What's up with that? :confused totally:


Well, I think that is because the change in priorities. When you are in highschool, your parents forced you to learn, learn and learn. When in college, with more freedom that is assigned to you, the parttime work, the new environment (for those who go to an out-of-town college/university), new people, new things to ponder about (rent, tuition, etc. etc.) ... things get pretty tough to stay on top of some classes.

Add that to the fact that my first year away from home, I developed a killer inner-ear disorder. Most of what I remember from classes in first-year university is sitting there with my head spinning uncontrollably, paying very little attention to what was being taught.

Plus, those two math classes were completely foreign to me, so that didn't help any. I sat through the rest of Calculus 12 after dropping out of the class due to the fact that it was killing my GPA, and I still didn't understand any of either of the two math classes I took the next year.

[maximus]

During my freshman year, I developed this thing called 'love' ... a cutie who always choose to sit next to me in classes. Too bad that doesn't work. If that works, I imagine myself getting married right after graduation, working really hard to support the family, have two kids by now, no money for electronics and gadgets, no travelling, no photography, no PPC, no PPCT, and no chance to meet wonderful people like you guys. :D

College girlfriend helps a lot in improving your grade. She was a straight-A student, and I was an A-with-several-AB student. Well, I have to work parttime at McDonald, local supermarket and university library, life is about compromises, right ? :mrgreen: