A Pocket PC "No-Buy" List?

[Brad Adrian]

I have a friend who uses Pocket PCs to help perform health evaluations in developing countries. He recently told me about a strange situation he encountered:<br /><br />"Recently, I tried to purchase ten Pocket PCs from Hewlett-Packard Shopping.com. The agent who was helping me asked me casually why I was buying so many, and I responded that I would be using them in a child health program in Kenya. The HP agent told me that everything was fine with the order, and to expect it the next day. The following day, I received a call from HP. The person told me that my order had been denied because it didn’t meet 'industry-wide criteria for proper orders.' I knew that I had more than enough credit on my card to place the order. I asked the agent what was wrong with the order, and she just repeated the aforementioned line. When I asked what the criteria were to which she was referring, there was a long pause then she said, 'I am not at liberty to divulge that information.' I asked to speak to the person’s supervisor who had denied my order, and that supervisor repeated the same language, but would not give me any more information. I asked if the refusal was due to some problem with my credit (although I knew it wasn’t – HP had already put a hold on my card for the purchase). He said it wasn’t. I asked if it had anything to do with how many units I ordered. He said it wasn’t, but would not give me any other information.<br /><br />I have wondered if my mentioning that I will be visiting a country with known terrorist activities (Kenya) led to the problem. Do you know if this has happened to other people? Is this part of an overly-zealous efforts on the part of the Dept. of Homeland Security? Is there some sort of No-Buy list in use? <br /><br />Thanks,<br />Tom Davis, MPH<br />Senior Program Specialist"<br /><br />Does anybody have an idea why this would happen? If this does relate to the fact that the Pocket PCs were to be used in Kenya, who actually sets the denial criteria?

[GoldKey]

If it is a security measure, seems pretty stupid. A terrorist would just lie about where they were taking them. I am assuming that since next day shipping was an option, they were not being sent directly to Kenya.

[danmanmayer]

that is wierd and scary... makes you think there most be some big brother watching things. It is really bad that they wont even tell you why your order is denied.

[Ed Hansberry]

According to http://www.cs.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Export-regs.html - Kenya falls under a category with the following requirements. "Commercial entities and their branches located in these countries or any country listed in this Supplement and designated with one or two asterisks are eligible to receive "recoverable" encryption commodities and software of any key length for internal company proprietary use."

I don't think the 128bit encryption that is included on WM2003 devices is considered "recoverable" since it would take months if not years of brute force to decrypt.

[Kati Compton]

Yeah, the encryption thing would be my guess. But there's no way someone should refuse to sell products to someone without telling them WHY. That's just ridiculous. If your friend is really upset, I bet a newspaper reporter or two might be interested in the story. Probably under the angle of "Is Homeland Security Over-Doing It?" But no matter what heading the story goes under, the publicity might make HP either tell your friend what the problem is, or actually sell him the units.

[SandersP]

Biggest possible explanation is they are suspecting credit card fraud.

[KAMware]

Why even bother with buying them from HP?

I bet there are dozens of eCommerce sites out there that would be HAPPY to sell him 10 Pocket PCs! And would not care what he is going to do with them! And at a better price!

Which makes this whole action by HP rather stupid!

:roll:

[Kati Compton]

I bet there are dozens of eCommerce sites out there that would be HAPPY to sell him 10 Pocket PCs! And would not care what he is going to do with them! And at a better price!
Yeah, and even better if he buys Axims. ;)

[ipaqabilities]

Lots of possibilities... suspiscion of credit card fraud, HP shopping.com only ships to U.S. (but then again if he's shipping to U.S., what gives?), always a possibility of the big brother thing...

Whatever the reasoning, its weird, freaky and scary all at once when you can't buy something because of where you're going...

[Bob Anderson]

While I can't explain exactly what happened, or why, I can share that I had a similar experience in May 2001 when I bought my laptop from Dell. The order seemed to go through... but it was delayed and then I got a cryptic e-mail telling me I needed to call them.

When I called them I was told that my name was matching up with some "list" they had. They asked me a few questions (I can't remember them now) and then the person told me that this was just a mix-up and apologized. I was a little shocked by the way it happened, but even before 9/11, I was of a mindset that I was glad someone was watching over our technology.

My guess is a similar situation is occurring here... that names, or "ultimate destinations" or combinations of other, as yet unknown criteria, lead manufacturers to be a "front line" in some process. I wish we knew more, but if we did, how could the system even be partially effective?

Having worked at a bank, and dealt with all the reporting of "large" currency transactions, et. al., let me assure you all, big brother is watching... and for 99.9% of us it is no problem. For the .01 of us that get "falsely identified" ... be patient, be accomodating, and remember the needs of the common good while everyone works to a amicable solution. For the .09 (or less) of you out there trying to do something illegal, or on the edges of legal, be forever warned, people are trying to catch you, and ultimately will.

[bkerrins]

I worked in the transportation industry for a number of years and this soft of stuff happens quite a bit. It's been illegal for years to ship certain types of hardware and software to embargoed (or other) countries. This isn't just a Homeland Security thing. My guess is that it has more to do with how often the "Harmonization Code" has been updated. Pocket PC's are probably not even in the book (it's a huuuge book) and HP just doesn't know if they are allowed to ship it to Kenya. I think HP is just trying to follow an already existing law.

[Peter Traugot]

Yes!!!

I can see how "Bob Anderson" whould ring bells on many systems in the Government.

I mean think about it . . .

I bet names like "John Smith", "David Lee" and a host of other very unique names might register a ping on the U.S. bad guy list.


8O

[Brad Adrian]

Biggest possible explanation is they are suspecting credit card fraud.
But these were to be purchased using a US-issued credit card and shipped to a US address. The only "flag" was a comment that they were to be used in Kenya.

[SandersP]

Lots of possibilities... suspiscion of credit card fraud, HP shopping.com only ships to U.S. (but then again if he's shipping to U.S., what gives?), always a possibility of the big brother thing...

Whatever the reasoning, its weird, freaky and scary all at once when you can't buy something because of where you're going...

If it is big brother thing, they'll let you have the 10 PDA, track all your purchase and your travel plan and ave somebody follow you. Specially if look like an arab with arab name.

[SandersP]

Biggest possible explanation is they are suspecting credit card fraud.
But these were to be purchased using a US-issued credit card and shipped to a US address. The only "flag" was a comment that they were to be used in Kenya.

He is buying 10 of them.

[xendula]

Or maybe HP just didn't want their ppcs to get exported the illegal way. In theory, that guy could have resold them in Kenya. Whenever I buy stuff in the US I avoid mentioning I don't live there. On some website I even found a remark that HP products can't be purchased by non-US customers, due to strict HP policy! Makes sense, if the same product sells for almost double the US price on some foreign markets.

But the fact the HP refused to give him a reason sounds suspicious, nevertheless.

[kel_cheng]

when someone talked about CPU processing power / encryption, it just makes me bringing up the same situation Sony Japan did with Playstation 2.

Exports out of Japan were limited for quite awhile.

[Buddha]

But these were to be purchased using a US-issued credit card and shipped to a US address. The only "flag" was a comment that they were to be used in Kenya.

Like Kati said before, this is just RIDICULOUS!

My advice: don't waste another breath on talking to HP and go buy them somewhere else online, or just buy them in a store, it'll probably even be cheaper! :deal: :byebye:

[Simone Ue]

When I buy from Dell (at least here in Switzerland) I get asked four questions befor my order is accepted:

- who will be the end user
- what will the equipment be used for (private/business/civil administration, military administration)
- do you intend to export the equipment (with list of countries)
- will the equipment be used to produce weapons of mass destruction?

explanation given: Dell is a US company and has to obey to US export legislation.

Pretty much the same thing, isn't it? And the questions are stupid anyway, anybody dangerous would cheat anyway.

[stlbud]

In the past, when I had to deal with export restrictions of this sort, we just told the buyer that we couldn't do it and why. It seems absolutely absurd to not disclose the reason for the restriction. I wonder if it really isn't a case that HP hasn't released this particular product to the Kenya market yet. That they don't want new devices there until they have a chance at a market roll out.

[Steven Cedrone]

Off-topic gun control posts have been moved to the HOF&S...

Stay on topic please...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Bill Gunn]

that is wierd and scary... makes you think there most be some big brother watching things. It is really bad that they wont even tell you why your order is denied.

I rely on someone else watching this kind of thing. If it was up to me to watch out for terrorists we'd be in deep kimchi 'cause my days are pretty full already. :wink:

[gorkon280]

I am sorry my earlier post lead to those flames but I stand by my earlier comment. Now back on topic.

To think preventing the purchase of devices that may be used in terrorist activities is going to protect us from whatever plans is stupid. Terrorists will find a way. Terrorists don't care about laws. They will find a way to get what they want. If this includes ppc's then they will get them. Laws like this only make it harder on the law abiding citizens.

[cammobus]

, et. al., let me assure you all, big brother is watching...

Hmm Bob so what your saying, is were all guilty first untill proven innocent later .......... 0X

[Timothy Rapson]

This is silly gossipy rumormongering.

The most simple explanations are the best. Now, I wonder first up about someone who called HP to get 10 Ipaqs when he could go to any Best Buy and get them cheaper and have a storefront to take them back to the next day if one arrived defective. And pay less. HP is not set up for regular consumers to buy multiples. If someone is a long way from a store he can buy one from HP, or if he is a reseller (who would expect to pay wholesale) the buy makes sense, but the story as presented sounds odd.

The simplest explanation is that HP was suspicious of the credit card because $4000-5000 is a big order for a new customer who did not meet a profile (business owner, school, reseller) that they know makes sense.

A second explaination is that HP does not have a reasonable way to service 10 Ipaqs in Kenya, and the government there could make problems for them with the products they do sell there if they knowingly sell products for use in Kenya that are not approved for sale there. (tariffs, government bribes, ???) But, that is also a lot of needless conjecture'


The whole launching off into Homeland Security and Big Brother thing is just dumb. Terrorist would be watched rather than denied. Terrorist who wanted such equipment can buy it cash leaving no trail.

[kel_cheng]

:roll: Exactly :wink:

This is silly gossipy rumormongering.

The most simple explanations are the best. Now, I wonder first up about someone who called HP to get 10 Ipaqs when he could go to any Best Buy and get them cheaper and have a storefront to take them back to the next day if one arrived defective. And pay less. HP is not set up for regular consumers to buy multiples. If someone is a long way from a store he can buy one from HP, or if he is a reseller (who would expect to pay wholesale) the buy makes sense, but the story as presented sounds odd.

The simplest explanation is that HP was suspicious of the credit card because $4000-5000 is a big order for a new customer who did not meet a profile (business owner, school, reseller) that they know makes sense.

A second explaination is that HP does not have a reasonable way to service 10 Ipaqs in Kenya, and the government there could make problems for them with the products they do sell there if they knowingly sell products for use in Kenya that are not approved for sale there. (tariffs, government bribes, ???) But, that is also a lot of needless conjecture'


The whole launching off into Homeland Security and Big Brother thing is just dumb. Terrorist would be watched rather than denied. Terrorist who wanted such equipment can buy it cash leaving no trail.

[Excalliber]

ugh, this is just stupid. My respect for HP dropped significantly today. "It's possible he's taking a trip to Kenya! Order DENIED!" Sounds like the Bush administration's work to me.

BTW, Any one want to guess if I'm conservative? :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

[GoldKey]

This is silly gossipy rumormongering.

The most simple explanations are the best. Now, I wonder first up about someone who called HP to get 10 Ipaqs when he could go to any Best Buy and get them cheaper and have a storefront to take them back to the next day if one arrived defective. And pay less. HP is not set up for regular consumers to buy multiples. If someone is a long way from a store he can buy one from HP, or if he is a reseller (who would expect to pay wholesale) the buy makes sense, but the story as presented sounds odd.

The simplest explanation is that HP was suspicious of the credit card because $4000-5000 is a big order for a new customer who did not meet a profile (business owner, school, reseller) that they know makes sense..

I doubt any local store keeps 10 of the same model PDA in stock, so this would make sense as the quickest way to get 10. Also, if they were suspisious of the CC, why not say so and ask for another means of payment.


A second explaination is that HP does not have a reasonable way to service 10 Ipaqs in Kenya, and the government there could make problems for them with the products they do sell there if they knowingly sell products for use in Kenya that are not approved for sale there.

They don't have a responsiblity to service them in Kenya if he is buying them in the US. HP is not selling to Kenya in this case.

Since they won't say what their reasoning is is the reason that it raises suspision.

[Paragon]

Call back tomorrow, place a new order with someone else, and gat a different answer.

Years ago I use to travel back and forth across the Canada/USA border a lot in a group with 10-15 other people with semi trucks and the likes. evety time we ran into a border issue we would keep calling and talking to different people til we got the answer we wanted. then take down their name, time, and so on. Then when we had a hassle we would say sos, on such and said we could. Talk to them.

Dave

[freitasm]

Biggest possible explanation is they are suspecting credit card fraud.
But these were to be purchased using a US-issued credit card and shipped to a US address. The only "flag" was a comment that they were to be used in Kenya.

No credit card fraud issue. I work for an American corporation (15 years now), and all computer sales have to be screened - since more than 10 years ago.

To allow companies to be able to "fast-track" exports there's a pre qualification questionaire that companies will ask the customer for some types of machines. If we, as a company, fail to do this, the Export Compliance status will be removed and each and every single sale will have to go through the Departments for evaluation and approval.

The Kenia citation is the thing that raised the flag. These are very strict rules and we all play by them, when buyers come and deal directly with the company.

Even working in another country (my company has 50,000 people around the world) each one of us have to receive training on this and other matters, since some of our operations overseas are governed by American law.

[Bob Anderson]

, et. al., let me assure you all, big brother is watching...

Hmm Bob so what your saying, is were all guilty first untill proven innocent later .......... 0X

No ... that's not what I'm saying...

All I'm saying is that if you are considering doing something illegal, be forewarned, someone may find out about it, and that the way you handle transactions may have something to do with the way you are discovered...

If you want to buy 10 Ipaqs to send to a terrorist supporting country... go buy them at Best Buy, to skirt the first layer of reporting, but know full well you'll have to break some law before they get into that country (you'll have to break import/export laws to transport them across the border when you know where the "ultimate" destination is.)

As for the people griping that terrorists will do anything they have their mind made up to regardless of the rules do need to keep one thing in mind... not all terrorists (or criminals for that matter) are all too terribly smart... and some of the dumbest rules catch 'em! Now, there are exceptions, but the criminally intent are not the brightest, hence their career choice.

[shindullin]

I think that Paragon has hit in on the head. What matters is that rules are up to interpretation and if you are persistent you will probably find someone in the end who disagrees with the answers that you have received so far and be able to do what you want to legally. Either that or you will finally get the reason why you can't do it and a path to get the policy reversed in your case.
As for why that may be, I subscribe to Ockham's razor. If there's a simple answer versus a complex one then the simple answer must be true. Corporate life is all about greed, not about stopping terrorism. Whatever the reason for the lack of cooperation it's more likely to be about HP profits than about any conspiracy related to homeland security. And if it is about homeland security, does it really matter as long as there is a good/legitimate explination for it? If 128 bit encryption is a legitimate security threat if sent to certain countries why is it wrong to try to limit access from those states?
Although, encryption is a pretty senseless thing to try to stop as it's not really something very limitable. Everything has it, including our web browsers which are free and downloadable from anywhere in the world. If national security is a reason though, HP should have told you for two primary reasons, increased compliance and the rights of citizens to know. It's less likely that a person would circumscribe a regulation if he/she knows that it's for a legitimate security reason and it should be the obligation of the nation to tell a citizen when their access to normally accessable things are being circumscribed for national security reasons. I think that the general rule is that they DO tell you when it's the government that's restricting you though. ie when the airline doesn't let you fly bc you're on a watch list they tell you that you're on the watch list. This gives you the oportunity to challenge your inclusion on the list. They won't tell you how the list is compiled, but they still tell you why.

[shindullin]

As for the people griping that terrorists will do anything they have their mind made up to regardless of the rules do need to keep one thing in mind... not all terrorists (or criminals for that matter) are all too terribly smart... and some of the dumbest rules catch 'em! Now, there are exceptions, but the criminally intent are not the brightest, hence their career choice.

If most criminals were dumb, lazy or both, most crime would never be solved. The scary thing is that it would appear that the terrorists against the West (and I don't think that the US is their only enemy although many Americans seem to forget this) are neither lazy nor stupid. That makes it all the more important to have rules that help catch them in the slightest misstep. I'm no conservative crazy guy but the fact of the matter is that a small cadre of really smart, really patient, really dedicated people have decided that America is the devil and the west it's whores and that all the "infidels" have to die for the God of Islam to be satisfied... I'd say that there is some reason to have security policies that try to protect the country. Whether this incident is even one of them or whether it is a justfied one even if it is, I don't know. But some people seem to be assuming that it must be a bad policy if it is a policy and think that's unfair without more information. May not be a good one either, but we just don't know and should not be so quick to assume.

[fletch]

Has anyone actually been to Kenya?

It's not nearly as bad as people seem to think. Just because George W tells you it's a terrorist state doesn't mean squat. We all know how good his intelligence is!

Kenya has had some recent terrorist issues (so has the US!), but they have been with terrorists crossing into the country and have all been anti-Israeli, not anti-western. It is not believed to be state-sponsored.

Besides the ignorance in detail of these types of policies, they always have the same result - they hinder citizens while doing nothing substantial to catch criminals.
TRANSLATED - the cost of freedom is freedom itself :)

[sdrexler]

I think the most probable explanation is that HP probably concerned you could re-sell them in Kenya, since you could probably sell them for twice the price to some people with bucks (the few there are in Kenya).

[deich]

I read a lot of good ideas here, but there is another possibility. Use of devices in medical applications can lead to extra-ordinary liability to the manufacturer. For many years, National Semiconductor posted a statement that their products could not be used in medical equipment. I heard a story that a manufacturer used their cheap pressure transducers in a piece of equipment designed to make sure premature infants were breathing. A cheap transducer failed, and National Semiconductor found themselves party to a law suit.

Whether this story is true or not, many companies are skittish of certain liabilities, then instruct their empolyees to take certain actions under certain circumstances. Once you trigger the response, you can be sure that any employee who wants to keep their job will tow the corporate line.

HP is famous for not giving out information. They were one of the first companies to refuse to give any references on past employees other than start and stop date. Their reasoning was that if they gave good references to some ex-employees and no references to others, they would be liable. I know for a fact that they instructed all their employees to tow the line on this. A decision to give a reference was one of the "career decisions" (a decision that could impact your career at HP).

I know this is absolutely true because my baby-sitter quit, which forced me to take a personal leave of absense for "non-compelling reasons". I had a H* of a time finding another job. Finally, I called a manager I was good friends with and coerced him into giving me a reference for a promising company.

I don't blame HP for any part of what happened. My only point is that corporations, especially large corporations, have a strong tendancy to be amoral. If you get caught, well, that's just too bad.

[Kati Compton]

Please try to talk about this particular issue with HP, rather than how likely terrorists are to do what they want and/or get caught.

:nonono:

[maximus]

According to http://www.cs.georgetown.edu/~denning/crypto/Export-regs.html - Kenya falls under a category with the following requirements. "Commercial entities and their branches located in these countries or any country listed in this Supplement and designated with one or two asterisks are eligible to receive "recoverable" encryption commodities and software of any key length for internal company proprietary use."


Ah, yes. The export compliance section D. A very 'interesting' U.S. compliance regulations that mandated that specific software and hardware are not supposed to be transferred to countries on the U.S. government's 'watchlist'. Not just about the encryption, it also prevents 'new' software/hardware from being transfered to those countries. That regulations apply to all U.S. companies and it's abroad offices.

Ussually it involves cutting edge software/hardware, and since WM2003 is new, it might be on the 'cutting edge' list.

On my first day in this company, I remember signing a document stating that I will not knowingly transport/transmit any software/hardware to any countries in the watchlist.

But there's no way someone should refuse to sell products to someone without telling them WHY.

Humm, actually it is a standard practice. I work in a bank, when a customer is walking to a cashier, telling the cashier that he/she would like to transfer $10,000 to libya, or to cuba (or any other countries on that list), the cashier will also give you an unclear reason for refusal.

But no matter what heading the story goes under, the publicity might make HP either tell your friend what the problem is, or actually sell him the units.

But HP will have to clear that first with the regulators, and that will take another months. Actually I was impressed by the HP's agent who performed the due-diligence question of 'Why are you buying so many'? Usually they just bypassed that.

Having worked at a bank, and dealt with all the reporting of "large" currency transactions, et. al., let me assure you all, big brother is watching... and for 99.9% of us it is no problem.

Ah yes. My point exactly. They are watching financial transactions very hardly lately, after the 911 incident. They even have their own website. (http://www.fatf-gafi.org/)[/url]

[gorkon280]

Please try to talk about this particular issue with HP, rather than how likely terrorists are to do what they want and/or get caught.

:nonono:

Well, you have to admit in tis day and age this IS a possibility. The feds may have said no iPaqs for Kenya because it may be used as a guidance computer for a missile or a computer that detonates a bomb or something. Like it or not, this is a very likely possibility and should be considered. It's a stupid idea if the feds think that this will actually stope a terrorist from obtaining the device. Like it or not though, it's a very real possibility after 9/11 and because of the weird nature of this story it's a very on topic thing.

That said, like many on here, I think HP is being ridiculous and it may very well be a fear of fraud or something. If they are going to tell you, then they should tell you and no BS about it by saying I am not at liberty to say. Don't hide behinde double talk. If there's a reason you can't fullfill the order tell me why! It's things like this I am not a liberty to say stuff that makes me think this may be tied to Department of Homeland Security laws or something. Because of this, I won't even try to fathom the countless ways that it can be achieved with out buying them direct from HP because with our weird system as of late I may be violating the DMCA or some stupid law.....also makes me wonder....as big as HP is, it's very possible that they don't know what they are talkign about.

I would try to order them again. You never know...you may hit a different call center and be able to get the order through.

[epc]

When I buy from Dell (at least here in Switzerland) I get asked four questions befor my order is accepted:

- who will be the end user
- what will the equipment be used for (private/business/civil administration, military administration)
- do you intend to export the equipment (with list of countries)
- will the equipment be used to produce weapons of mass destruction?

explanation given: Dell is a US company and has to obey to US export legislation.

Pretty much the same thing, isn't it? And the questions are stupid anyway, anybody dangerous would cheat anyway.

And what REAL terrorist would answer yes to any of these. :roll:
Homeland security is to keep good people honest and an illusion of safety.

[Kati Compton]

Please try to talk about this particular issue with HP, rather than how likely terrorists are to do what they want and/or get caught.

:nonono:

Well, you have to admit in tis day and age this IS a possibility.
Of course. Saying that this is what HP might we concerned about is on topic. Discussing terrorism in general is not.

[Brad Adrian]

Use of devices in medical applications can lead to extra-ordinary liability to the manufacturer.
That's a good point. But these devices weren't to be used as "medical devices" for direct control of treatment, etc. The applications being used are basically evaluation rubriks (sp?) for evaluating the nutritional risk of children.

[kaizer soze]

I'm checking my email while I'm reading all these repies and I see an email from HP:

Empower your employees with the ability to access and shareinformation while on the go. Now through October 17, when you buy ten iPAQ 2210s for $3999.90, we'll throw in an extra one for free!

Go back tomorrow, try again, and get yourself one for all your trouble! :mrgreen:

[lanwarrior]

Kenya maybe under HPRL or HP Restricted List. Countries such as Libya are under this list.

Back when I was working for HP, we have this system online for every Sales Engineer.

[Bill Gunn]

Please try to talk about this particular issue with HP, rather than how likely terrorists are to do what they want and/or get caught.

:nonono:

This entire thread is speculation. It is silly to start a thread ASKING people to speculate and conjecture then hammer them when they do.

[JonathanWardRogers]

This entire thread is speculation. It is silly to start a thread ASKING people to speculate and conjecture then hammer them when they do.

I think the point was this thread is to conjecture about why HP did not approve the purchase and why they did not specify the reason for that denial. The purpose is not to conjecture about what terrorists may or may not do and how the underlying reasons for this situation may or may not affect the terrorists success at terrorist activities.

[egoz]

Speculation... But, if it is due to Kenya becoming an increasingly unstable state, then...

1) The War on Terrorism entails far fewer sacrafices than all previous wars (like, how many of you could actually muster not having sugar in your diet except in the most minor amounts? how about no major league sports?)

2) Technology, even for medical purposes has in the past been used for terrorist operations, or intended for terrorist operations (E.G., Hamas runs a lot of hospitals). Case in point, you cannot ship Photoschop to Syria or Iran. Does anyone believe they are using this for slick marketing materials ("Come visit the sunny coast of Syria!") or for... rogue currency operations.

I do realise that many of us have grown up in a virtual Disneyland when compared to most of the world. But, shriek, do believe, and believe strongly, that they can (and will) use our own devices against our own populations.

Terrorist actions that kill thousands happen.
I dare say, none of us would want a PocketPC to be used to coordinate or facilitate such.

So, get over the (probable) ban of export.
It works.

.rob adams

[Brad Adrian]

This entire thread is speculation...

I think the point was this thread is to conjecture about why HP did not approve the purchase and why they did not specify the reason for that denial...
Plus, I was kind of hoping that somebody would have a definitive answer as to why this happened. Unless somebody from HP posts here, we may never have a concrete answer.

[Duncan]

Speculation... But, if it is due to Kenya becoming an increasingly unstable state, then...

1) The War on Terrorism entails far fewer sacrafices than all previous wars (like, how many of you could actually muster not having sugar in your diet except in the most minor amounts? how about no major league sports?)

2) Technology, even for medical purposes has in the past been used for terrorist operations, or intended for terrorist operations (E.G., Hamas runs a lot of hospitals). Case in point, you cannot ship Photoschop to Syria or Iran. Does anyone believe they are using this for slick marketing materials ("Come visit the sunny coast of Syria!") or for... rogue currency operations.

I do realise that many of us have grown up in a virtual Disneyland when compared to most of the world. But, shriek, do believe, and believe strongly, that they can (and will) use our own devices against our own populations.

Terrorist actions that kill thousands happen.
I dare say, none of us would want a PocketPC to be used to coordinate or facilitate such.

So, get over the (probable) ban of export.
It works.

.rob adams

Living outside of the 'virtual Disneyland' myself I have to say that is a load of absolute tosh. Export bans do NOT work. They hurt legitimate causes (such as the one this thread was founded to discuss) but any terrorist organisation worth its name can get hardware and software easily through 'non-regular' channels. More to the point that is the ONLY way they will go about getting such things - they are hardly like to want to advertise their desire to buy technology for the purposes of war are they!

IF HP banned the sale of these iPAQs because of the encryption within them then it is an exercise in making people feel safer - not actually making anyone safer (bit like metal detectors - in a world of kevlar knives and plastic explosives...:roll:). Of course if you wish to believe that export bans mean that Kenyan terrorists can't get hold of software, high-level encryption software, iPAQs etc. ('Damn', thinks the terrorist, 'I WAS going to co-ordinate an international terror campaign but US export restrictions have foiled me yet again - I guess I'll just have to use some of the masses of stolen tech, pirated software and left-over guns and bombs that the US gave us when we used to be on the same side...') - go ahead and believe it - but you are not living in the real world...

I would hazard a guess that HP are not acting on any 'Homeland Security' directive - merely the collective fear of the industry of the remote possibility that they could be connected to any terrorist act in the future (cf. the bizarre announcement by an MS spokesperson, two years ago, that they did not condone the use of 'Flight Simulator' for terrorist use!).

[Duncan]

Plus, I was kind of hoping that somebody would have a definitive answer as to why this happened. Unless somebody from HP posts here, we may never have a concrete answer.

Doesn't it worry you that we are very unlikely to get a concrete answer? Way too many things are being kept secret under the 'WoT' excuse - if this IS another one then it is a step in a dangerous direction. It IS difficult to see what other reason there could possibly be...

[Gone4Day]

First off, this has been one entertaining post.....but as at least ONE other individual posted...the easisest answer is the right one.

My informed guess is that your red flag was the fact that youwere ordering 10 of a single unit from a consumer-facing eCommerce site. HP has a well defined reseller program in place for dealing with bulk orders, and they aggressively protect their reseller channels to ensure that these partners get the business that they intend for them to get. When you order 10 of a single unit, you take on a profile of a "reseller," even if that wasn't your intent.

This is especially true in the case of low-availability or "quota restrictions" for popular items. In fact, Compaq did this with their old eCommerce site back when the iPaq's were first released....if you wanted to buy multiple units, you had to stand in line with everyone else at CompUSA -OR- sign up to be a certified HP reseller.

I know this because I AM a certified HP reseller, and HP has very defined processes for ordering multiple units of anything. Some products are unaffected by this, but my VAR contract with HP indicates that they will "prevent" other competitors from obtaining products other than thru their qualified reseller programs. This is a way to control gray-market distribution of HP products.

Pure and simple....and not a single "government conspiracy cover-up" theory to be found.

Oh, and one last thing....you give call-center salespeople WAY too much credit for being able to shape company decision-making processes. They are at the bottom of the food chain, and are paid to take and process orders, not pass on "corporate intelligence" to company leadership.

[Noel.Holland]

Or maybe HP just didn't want their ppcs to get exported the illegal way. In theory, that guy could have resold them in Kenya. Whenever I buy stuff in the US I avoid mentioning I don't live there. On some website I even found a remark that HP products can't be purchased by non-US customers, due to strict HP policy! Makes sense, if the same product sells for almost double the US price on some foreign markets.

But the fact the HP refused to give him a reason sounds suspicious, nevertheless.

I think Xendulas post above needs to be read again by all those here who are on the legal / homeland security trip in this thread.

Xendulas makes a very valid point here and it is one I as a UK resident have faced several times. Many companys use different prices between companys and if you appear to be cirmventing thier pricing regulations you run teh risk of them refusing to sell to you. I think Xendulas point about HP not wanting to sel becuase they might be afraid you intended to sell the units in Kenya at below HP's local price to make a packet off the grey market could well be the reason.

Let my cite personal experience. My car is a Ford Focus and I'm a UK resident. Ford like all the car manufacturers markup the price of cars in the UK at extortionate levels and abuse the fact the UK cars have the steering on the right to explain why their cars are more expensive than identical ones sold in mainland europe . However I know my car was built in a factory just east of Madrid in Spain on exactly the same production line as all the other Ford Focus's whether they are right hand or left hand drive.

Now under EU law I have the right to buy my car from any dealer within the EU and the car manufacturers cannot refuse to sell that car purely on the grounds that I live in an area where the car manufacturers have traditionally ripped the public off. So they have to resort to pressurising the dealers to force them not to sell outside of their region - again an offence under EU law but they still do it. I know when my car left the factory, but Ford sidetracked it for 2 months into a storage area and refused to hand it over to my spanish dealer because of "accounting and paperwork issues". When challenged the Ford accounting dept (in Ireland) told me that because I had ordered a UK spec car my order had to be processed via paper as their computer couldn't cope with it. This being the same computer that processed the orders for identical cars on the same production run that went instead to UK dealers and thereby made Ford more money.

In summation, don't be so fast to believe that any company has public safety and security at heart whne you have a perfectly understandable reason which points right to the heart of what companys are about - protecting their markets and profit margins.

[jwheelerjr]

Regardless of conjecture, he should get a lawyer. It's unreasonable to be denied service without reason. Personally, I think it's unacceptable even though HP may argue that it's their right. Despite that, I doubt they would want to make a show of it in court and would at the very least confess the reason.

[deich]

hwheelerjr has a good idea. If you don't want to hassle with a lawyer, go to small claims court. You can represent yourself in a consumer-friendly environment, and perhaps the judge will force HP to state their reasons.

[PetiteFlower]

Small claims court? For what loss? They didn't take his money.

A business can refuse to serve ANYONE for ANY REASON or no reason at all, that's perfectly legal. Unless you have some evidence that it was racially motivated(which over the phone doesn't seem likely), there isn't any legal complaint that you could make against them.

[GoldKey]

Petite,

Your right, he does not have a case, but I think he deserves an explaination. Maybe they are misunderstanding his intent and without giving him a reason he has no way of knowing he needs to clarify. Absent that, as a public company, I think stockholders would like to know why they are turning away business.