Shame on PocketTV and Mazingo!

[Chairman Clench]

I am rather concerned about an e-mail I received a little while ago from Mazingo. It was advertising "adult" content that they now offer. I am not anti-porn or anything, and although I know some people who would be offended, I am not.

The problem is that they sent the e-mail to my work e-mail address, which is NOT registered with my Mazingo account. According to the message, "You received this message as a part of your sign up on Mazingo or one of its partners (PocketTV)."

Yes, I registered PocketTV at work where I was installing apps on my PPC because I wanted the reg code quickly. However, I don't think they should be sending out blind e-mails contianing "adult" content advertisement without having users OPT-IN for it. I understand that PocketTV is a free program, and I would expect that they need to sell the lists to continue development. Where adult content advertisment is concerned, however, this is just not right. I could get in trouble at work for receiving this kind of e-mail.

Again, I am not criticizing adult content or porn, I have no problem with it as long as it is offered to people with their concent. In this case, my e-mail address was used in an inappropriate way. If this is the way PocketTV and Mazingo are going to use the information we give them in the future, I will certainly not be giving either of them any information from now on.

As a result of this, I have cancelled my Mazingo account and requested that both they and PocketTV remove me and all my information from all of their systems. I just thought I would warn others not to give them any e-mail addresses you don't want adult content advertisements sent to. I also posted this at Brighthand, sorry if you already read it.

[GoldKey]

That is uncool. When you register, do they get your age? For all they know they could be peddling adult content to kids.

[The Half-Ling]

ya that is pretty messed up...you should write pocket tv an email...

That deserves a refund...

Jake

[Chairman Clench]

That is uncool. When you register, do they get your age? For all they know they could be peddling adult content to kids.

No, they don't ask your age that I am aware of.

PocketTV responded to this over on Brighthand, but they basically said that it is Mazingo's issue. I agree that Mazingo sent the e-mail, but PocketTV should maintain better control over what will be sent to the e-mail addresses they sell.

Not cool at all. I won't be using PocketTV or Mazingo anymore.

[Chairman Clench]

ya that is pretty messed up...you should write pocket tv an email...

That deserves a refund...

Jake

PocketTV is aware of it and blamed Mazingo instead of taking responsibility and apologizing. The PocketTV version that I registered is free, so I doubt they will be refunding me anything! :D

[Jeff Rutledge]

I just got my un-solicited message as well. I'm the same as you that I don't have any big issue with porn in general, but I do have an issue with companies using the email address I gave them for a specific reason to solicit adult content.

I've also unsubscribed from Mazingo and I'll be sending a note in the morning.

[PetiteFlower]

PocketTV responded to this over on Brighthand, but they basically said that it is Mazingo's issue. I agree that Mazingo sent the e-mail, but PocketTV should maintain better control over what will be sent to the e-mail addresses they sell.

Oh that is FUNNY! Read the privacy statement before you give your email address to anyone. Once they sell your address, how could they POSSIBLY maintain control over what was done with it? They could have sold it to 50 companies, and each of them to 50, and each of them to 50, who happen to be porn spammers. If you don't want to get spam at an email address, don't give it out to any company, EVER! Get a free hotmail account and use that, because once your address is sold, there is no way to make it private again. Do you really think that Pocket TV cares what will be sent to the email addresses they sell? They may not sell directly to the porn spammers but chances are, someone down the line will.

Just out of curiosity, was this an email with graphic words or pictures? Or was it just advertising "adult content available" or something like that?

[Chairman Clench]

PocketTV responded to this over on Brighthand, but they basically said that it is Mazingo's issue. I agree that Mazingo sent the e-mail, but PocketTV should maintain better control over what will be sent to the e-mail addresses they sell.

Oh that is FUNNY! Read the privacy statement before you give your email address to anyone. Once they sell your address, how could they POSSIBLY maintain control over what was done with it? They could have sold it to 50 companies, and each of them to 50, and each of them to 50, who happen to be porn spammers. If you don't want to get spam at an email address, don't give it out to any company, EVER! Get a free hotmail account and use that, because once your address is sold, there is no way to make it private again. Do you really think that Pocket TV cares what will be sent to the email addresses they sell? They may not sell directly to the porn spammers but chances are, someone down the line will.


Actually, I did read their privacy policy and it specifically states that the list cannot be re-sold beyond who PocketTV sells it to. So, you are wrong, they COULD control what was done with it. In addition, we are not talking about something way down the line, we are talking about a 1st generation sale... PocketTV clearly states that Mazingo is one of their "Strategic Partners".

As far as PocketTV caring what is sent to the e-mail addresses, well apparently you are right, they don't care about their users. I think that says enough about what kind of company they and Mazingo are.

As for why I sent them a real e-mail address... well, I was at work and needed to use PocketTV to show someone something. I had forgotten to register it before and it was balking that it wanted to be registered. We are explicitly not allowed to check Hotmail accounts where I work... as a matter of fact, all the main free e-mail sites have been blocked by our IT department. So, since I needed the program to work I registered it using the only e-mail address I had access to at the time... my work e-mail.

Regardless, PocketTV CAN control what type of content is sent to their users and admitted such in the thread over Brighthand. They also admitted prior knowledge of this and clearly stated that they knew it would offend people. Couple that with no way of checking the age of the people it was being sent to and it sounds pretty irresponsible to me.

[PetiteFlower]

I don't disagree that it was irresponsible, I just don't expect more from online retailers, I expect them all to be scummy and so I limit their access to my personal information as much as I can.

[The PocketTV Team]

ya that is pretty messed up...you should write pocket tv an email...

That deserves a refund...

Jake
A refund ? People who purchased PocketTV do not receive commercial mailing from Mazingo. We only provided them the list of email of people who registered the free version.

Please read the following thread in its entirety to see the position of PocketTV on this issue.

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87444&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

Thanks.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Do you really think that Pocket TV cares what will be sent to the email addresses they sell?

We do care. Please read our privacy statement:

http://www.mpegtv.com/wince/pockettv/privacy.html

> Just out of curiosity, was this an email with graphic words or pictures? Or was it just advertising "adult content available" or something like that?

It was just advertising "adult content available". See here:
http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=571467#post571467

[The PocketTV Team]

> As for why I sent them a real e-mail address... well, I was at work
> and needed to use PocketTV to show someone something. I had forgotten to register it before and it was balking that it wanted to be registered.

Looks like you broke the terms of our license. If you used PocketTV and you were at work, it was probably not for your personal use, was it ? You are required to purchase PocketTV Enterprise Edition for use other than strictly personal use.

If you had done so, you would not have received the mazingo mailing.

> Regardless, PocketTV CAN control what type of content is sent to their users and admitted such in the thread over Brighthand. They also admitted prior knowledge of this

No, we have not admitted any prior knowledge of this, please read that thread again:

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87444&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

So please don't tell we did, that's not nice to lie.

In fact we did not know about the content of the latest Mazingo mailing until they had sent it out and we received it one one of the email that is in their list.

> and clearly stated that they knew it would offend people.

Yes, once we saw their mailing, we knew that. Naturally.

[Chairman Clench]

>Looks like you broke the terms of our license. If you used PocketTV and you were at work, it was probably not for your personal use, was it ? You are required to purchase PocketTV Enterprise Edition for use other than strictly personal use.

>If you had done so, you would not have received the mazingo mailing.

Actually, you are wrong, and I resent the implication. You are blindly striking back because you don't like the fact that I brought this issue to people's attention.

I work for a bank. Our information security policies are VERY strict, hence why I couldn't use one of the "free" e-mail accounts to register your software. Those sites are all blocked by the security department.

If I used my PDA for business purposes, I wouldn't have been able to install your software because it is not on our company's approved software list. The PDA is my personal PDA, which I paid for with my own money, and which I use for my personal purposes. If an employee at my company uses a PDA for business use, they are required to comply with the company security policies and not install software that is not approved on the PDA.

The actual situation was that another employee with whom I work was interested in buying a PDA. I was helping them understand the things a PDA could do. That person didn't believe that full-motion video and sound was something a PDA could do well or something they would be interested in. I used your software to prove them wrong.

I would hardly consider this anything but personal use. To quote you, "So please don't tell what we did, that's not nice to lie."

>No, we have not admitted any prior knowledge of this, please read that thread again:

>http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=87444&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

I did re-read your response and I mis-interpreted it. Your response on that thread states, "Yes, we are fully aware that Mazingo, one of our partners, has recently decided to send a mailing advertizing a service offering mobile adult video content to their users."

I interpreted that to mean you knew about it in advance. Apparently, that is not the case. There was no lie or anything else intended. When I make a mistake, I apologize for it. I misinterpreted your statement and was wrong. I apologize for incorrectly stating that you had prior knowledge about the e-mail. If you say you didn't, I believe you.

That being said, I have been very careful in all of the threads related to this issue. I have clearly stated my points and have not misrepresented what you or Mazingo did. I did not refer to the e-mail as spam or porn because it wasn't and I was trying to be fair and honest.

I have fairly and consistently even taken steps to CORRECT people who, although they agreed with me, stated something incorrect, untrue, or unfair to either you or Mazingo. I corrected people who thought that this happened to paying PocketTV customers. I corrected people who thought I was making a SPAM issue out of it. I have corrected people who thought it was porn that was being sent out. I have corrected people who made incorrect comments about your privacy policy. I have even DEFENDED what I believe is your right to responsibly re-sell the e-mail addresses to support development of your product.

In comparison to how these things usually go, it hasn't turned into a flame war and I truly believe that I have handled it in a careful way because it is THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

[Jeff Rutledge]

When I read PocketTV's response last night, I felt compelled to defend Chairman Clench. When I checked the thread this morning, I can see that CC doesn't need any help. Nevertheless, I do want to voice my thanks to CC for standing firm.

To the PocketTV team, I express my disappointment in your handling of this matter. You're being far too defensive. Adult content is one of those issues that companies must go beyond the standard level of service to ensure there is no room for misunderstanding. I would have preferred to hear you acknowledge that this happened, it was unfortunate and that you're taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Instead you're falling back on technicalities ("Read the privacy agreement" and "You're obviously using this for work").

I've been involved in this community for a long time. It's a very forgiving community. If someone steps up and says "Whoops, my mistake. It won't happen again" the folks here accept that and move on. In fact, they're usually more supportive of the company as a result.

And to be clear: I don't think this is your fault. You let people know that their information may be sold. The question is: will you append the contract your partners sign to exclude adult content? I think that's the question of the day.

[Kati Compton]

Personally, I don't see why the PocketTV people would realize that Mazingo would send this type of email. If anyone is to blame here, I would say it's Mazingo. But apparently from the discussion at Brighthand, the site isn't exactly what most people would consider "Adult". PG-13 maybe. But anyway - it's Mazingo that sent the message, and PocketTV didn't have any way of knowing in advance that this would happen. Neither did the customers, but they knew that their addresses would be sold to Mazingo if they read the privacy policy.

For the assertion that PocketTV "should have known better" than to give the addresses to Mazingo, then it also follows that the customers "should have known better" than to use and register the product, since they could see the addresses would be given.

[Jeff Rutledge]

Personally, I don't see why the PocketTV people would realize that Mazingo would send this type of email. If anyone is to blame here, I would say it's Mazingo. But apparently from the discussion at Brighthand, the site isn't exactly what most people would consider "Adult". PG-13 maybe. But anyway - it's Mazingo that sent the message, and PocketTV didn't have any way of knowing in advance that this would happen. Neither did the customers, but they knew that their addresses would be sold to Mazingo if they read the privacy policy.

I agree with this. I'm not really taking issue with what happened (well, I am, but that's on Mazingo). For PocketTV, my issue is that they're basically defending their action because it makes money.

But you must be realistic and admit that one of the biggest market for commercial video content (whether mobile or classic, i.e. VHS and DVD) is adult content.

I'd rather hear them say that they hear the concerns of their customers and they're doing something about it.

[PetiteFlower]

If all it was was an email stating "adult content available" with nothing pornographic or even suggestive in there, I don't see how it's any different then advertising any other kind of content. To me, I would consider it the same as if I got an email saying "games available" or something. Of course there's no way to really verify ages online but I'm sure on Mazingo you need a credit card to download anything adult, so even if a kid got the email, he wouldn't have a very easy time accessing the content without a credit card. But maybe I'm too liberal :)

[Jeff Rutledge]

Actually, I just noticed this in the same BH thread:

We agree that this type of adult-oriented mailing could be considered offensive or inappropriate by some, and could damage the image of our company.

We will work with Mazingo and our other partners to avoid direct promotion of adult material to users that are potentially minors and should not be exposed to this sort of thing.

I'm not sure why I missed this, but that's exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks PocketTV for making this statement. I'd recommend keeping the community up to date on the steps you end up taking.

[Chairman Clench]

Personally, I don't see why the PocketTV people would realize that Mazingo would send this type of email. If anyone is to blame here, I would say it's Mazingo.

Maybe not, but it is important to think these things through when your name is going to be attached to something. PocketTV's name was clearly attached to the e-mail as the source of the e-mail addresses. If it was MY company and I was trying to keep a consumer-friendly image, I would have made sure that adult content advertisements were not allowed. It's a pretty basic thing, I think. They wouldn't be getting this kind of pushback from the community if it had been a non-adult content advertisement. A standard clause to the effect of "not using the e-mail list to promote content, products, or services that are illegal or restricted by law to adults" would have been a smart idea.

Nonetheless, I am confident that both companies will make adjustments to their policies as a result of this. Again, that was my goal. You can't expect people or companies to change if you never let them know what's wrong.

[Chairman Clench]

Actually, I just noticed this in the same BH thread:

We agree that this type of adult-oriented mailing could be considered offensive or inappropriate by some, and could damage the image of our company.

We will work with Mazingo and our other partners to avoid direct promotion of adult material to users that are potentially minors and should not be exposed to this sort of thing.

I'm not sure why I missed this, but that's exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks PocketTV for making this statement. I'd recommend keeping the community up to date on the steps you end up taking.

Also for the record, PocketTV did apologize later on in the same Brighthand thread you referenced. I think that is a good start... now let's see the policy change.

[Chairman Clench]

When I read PocketTV's response last night, I felt compelled to defend Chairman Clench. When I checked the thread this morning, I can see that CC doesn't need any help. Nevertheless, I do want to voice my thanks to CC for standing firm.

To the PocketTV team, I express my disappointment in your handling of this matter. You're being far too defensive. Adult content is one of those issues that companies must go beyond the standard level of service to ensure there is no room for misunderstanding. I would have preferred to hear you acknowledge that this happened, it was unfortunate and that you're taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Instead you're falling back on technicalities ("Read the privacy agreement" and "You're obviously using this for work").

I've been involved in this community for a long time. It's a very forgiving community. If someone steps up and says "Whoops, my mistake. It won't happen again" the folks here accept that and move on. In fact, they're usually more supportive of the company as a result.

And to be clear: I don't think this is your fault. You let people know that their information may be sold. The question is: will you append the contract your partners sign to exclude adult content? I think that's the question of the day.

Thanks, JR!

[Jeff Rutledge]

When I read PocketTV's response last night, I felt compelled to defend Chairman Clench. When I checked the thread this morning, I can see that CC doesn't need any help. Nevertheless, I do want to voice my thanks to CC for standing firm.

To the PocketTV team, I express my disappointment in your handling of this matter. You're being far too defensive. Adult content is one of those issues that companies must go beyond the standard level of service to ensure there is no room for misunderstanding. I would have preferred to hear you acknowledge that this happened, it was unfortunate and that you're taking steps to ensure it doesn't happen again. Instead you're falling back on technicalities ("Read the privacy agreement" and "You're obviously using this for work").

I've been involved in this community for a long time. It's a very forgiving community. If someone steps up and says "Whoops, my mistake. It won't happen again" the folks here accept that and move on. In fact, they're usually more supportive of the company as a result.

And to be clear: I don't think this is your fault. You let people know that their information may be sold. The question is: will you append the contract your partners sign to exclude adult content? I think that's the question of the day.

Thanks, JR!

No worries CC. As I said, you are obviously able to take care of yourself. Your response was well said and measured.

[The PocketTV Team]

>The PDA is my personal PDA, which I paid for with my own money, and which I use for my personal purposes.
Something we need to point out: You had 7 days to register PocketTV. Plenty enough time to do that from home using your personal email. You did not *have* to use your business email.

Or did they lock-you up in your bank vault for a week ? :)

[The PocketTV Team]

Personally, I don't see why the PocketTV people would realize that Mazingo would send this type of email. If anyone is to blame here, I would say it's Mazingo. But apparently from the discussion at Brighthand, the site isn't exactly what most people would consider "Adult". PG-13 maybe. But anyway - it's Mazingo that sent the message, and PocketTV didn't have any way of knowing in advance that this would happen. Neither did the customers, but they knew that their addresses would be sold to Mazingo if they read the privacy policy.

I agree with this. I'm not really taking issue with what happened (well, I am, but that's on Mazingo). For PocketTV, my issue is that they're basically defending their action because it makes money.

But you must be realistic and admit that one of the biggest market for commercial video content (whether mobile or classic, i.e. VHS and DVD) is adult content.

I'd rather hear them say that they hear the concerns of their customers and they're doing something about it.
When you mean "Customers", you mean people who use our free software ?

We have a slightly different definition. "Customers" are the people who purchased our products. The people using the free version, we call them "users", not "customers".

[Jeff Rutledge]

Actually, I just noticed this in the same BH thread:

We agree that this type of adult-oriented mailing could be considered offensive or inappropriate by some, and could damage the image of our company.

We will work with Mazingo and our other partners to avoid direct promotion of adult material to users that are potentially minors and should not be exposed to this sort of thing.

I'm not sure why I missed this, but that's exactly what I was hoping for. Thanks PocketTV for making this statement. I'd recommend keeping the community up to date on the steps you end up taking.

Also for the record, PocketTV did apologize later on in the same Brighthand thread you referenced. I think that is a good start... now let's see the policy change.

PocketTV Team:

You've been painted in a fairly good light all things considered. Don't ruin that by stooping to petty bickering (referring to your last two posts).

Also, you may find that the best way to make someone a Customer is to treat them like one.

[The PocketTV Team]

> You've been painted in a fairly good light all things considered. Don't ruin that by stooping to petty bickering (referring to your last two posts).

> Also, you may find that the best way to make someone a Customer is to treat them like one.

You are right, JR.

Too bad most people think that everything should be totally free with no strings attached.

They use the road every day but they don't want to pay their taxes... Not too many things are "really" free. Even the clean air you want to breath has a cost.

This said, we do recognize a part of responsability in allowing Mazingo to do mailing using our user list without us approving the content of their mailing, and we don't want this to occur again.

Users also have a share of responsability when they provide their email address to websites without first checking the small prints (e.g. privacy statements).

[Pat Logsdon]

Too bad most people think that everything should be totally free with no strings attached.

They use the road every day but they don't want to pay their taxes... Not too many things are "really" free. Even the clean air you want to breath has a cost.
Very amusing - a company representative making troll-ish posts on the most popular PocketPC site in the world. You are splitting hairs to your detriment.

[Jeff Rutledge]

Too bad most people think that everything should be totally free with no strings attached.

They use the road every day but they don't want to pay their taxes... Not too many things are "really" free. Even the clean air you want to breath has a cost.


I do think there's some truth to that and I completely sympathize with any PPC developer. We can be a hard nut to crack. 8)


This said, we do recognize a part of responsability in allowing Mazingo to do mailing using our user list without us approving the content of their mailing, and we don't want this to occur again.

Great to hear.

Users also have a share of responsability when they provide their email address to websites without first checking the small prints (e.g. privacy statements).

Agreed.

[Chairman Clench]

>The PDA is my personal PDA, which I paid for with my own money, and which I use for my personal purposes.
Something we need to point out: You had 7 days to register PocketTV. Plenty enough time to do that from home using your personal email. You did not *have* to use your business email.

Or did they lock-you up in your bank vault for a week ? :)

You guys really don't know when enough is enough, do you?

[Chairman Clench]

Too bad most people think that everything should be totally free with no strings attached.

They use the road every day but they don't want to pay their taxes... Not too many things are "really" free. Even the clean air you want to breath has a cost.

This said, we do recognize a part of responsability in allowing Mazingo to do mailing using our user list without us approving the content of their mailing, and we don't want this to occur again.

Users also have a share of responsability when they provide their email address to websites without first checking the small prints (e.g. privacy statements).

Again, as I have stated from the very FIRST post I respect and understand the need to sell the e-mail lists to support development of your free product. I have also repeatedly stated that your privacy policy says you can do so. The core issue here was sending out this specific type of adult content advertisement. I'm not sure how much clearer I can be at this point.

My suggestion here is that you quit while you are ahead. You apologized and said that you will work to prevent this in the future. Enough already. As far as I am concerned, the issue is closed.

[The PocketTV Team]

> Very amusing - a company representative making troll-ish posts on the most popular PocketPC site in the world.

I thought the most popular Pocket PC site was www.brighthand.com ...

Hey, we are not responsible for the lack of humor of some of the people posting in this forum!

[PetiteFlower]

Brighthand is not a Pocket PC site, it's a PDA site.

And as far as lack of humor, I'm sorry if you're posting as a representative of a company, you should strive to be professional, not funny. Especially if you are trying to entice people to become your "customers".

If you sell advertising information from the people who register your free product, you are still making money off of them, and they still deserve the same respect that paying customers get. Treating them like "users" is certainly not going to make them want to give you their money.

[The PocketTV Team]

Brighthand is not a Pocket PC site, it's a PDA site.
Ok, but if you look at their Pocket PC forums:

http://discussion.brighthand.com/forumdisplay.php?&forumid=126/

... you will see that the number of posts is an order of magnitude larger compared to this forum (which is also a good Pocket PC site).

If you sell advertising information from the people who register your free product, you are still making money off of them, .
Yes, barely enough to pay for the bandwidth of our website. We would not distribute free software it it was costing us money to do so.

[Jeff Rutledge]

... you will see that the number of posts is an order of magnitude larger compared to this forum (which is also a good Pocket PC site).

I don't think you'll find a better example of quality vs. quantity than that one.

[The PocketTV Team]

... you will see that the number of posts is an order of magnitude larger compared to this forum (which is also a good Pocket PC site).

I don't think you'll find a better example of quality vs. quantity than that one.
Brighthand is one of the best site but it is more business oriented. Pocket PC though is more "personal user" oriented.

[PetiteFlower]

And then again, no one is forcing you to offer a free version of your software! You are coming off like a whiny brat rather then a business person. And there are very few things I hate more then whiny brats.

If your business decision to offer a free product in exchange for advertising revenue, is not supporting your company, then change it, don't express bitterness towards the people who use the software that you offer for free--it's not THEIR fault that you can "barely pay your bandwidth bills", or their problem.

[The PocketTV Team]

And then again, no one is forcing you to offer a free version of your software!
I think most people like the fact that we provide a free version of an excellent piece of software for Pocket PC (and Smartphone).

So we have no plans to stop providing PocketTV Classic free to private Pocket PC users.

don't express bitterness towards the people who use the software
We don't express any bitterness at all. On the contrary, we are increadibly happy that so many people use our free software. But we wouldn't provide free software if it was costing us money to do so.

[Jeff Rutledge]

I think most people like the fact that we provide a free version of an excellent piece of software for Pocket PC (and Smartphone).

Of course they like it. But that will soon pass if they're continually made to feel guilty or less important because of it.

[PetiteFlower]

I think most people like the fact that we provide a free version of an excellent piece of software for Pocket PC (and Smartphone).

So we have no plans to stop providing PocketTV Classic free to private Pocket PC users.

Then quit insulting the people who download it and complaining that they are "users".

Just FYI, you have now insured that at least one person on this board will not ever touch your software with a 10 foot pole, free or paid. Not because of your policy, because of your attitude and lack of professionalism. I give my business to people who appreciate it.

[Steven Cedrone]

I would like to ask everyone involved in this little "discussion" to take a break and relax a little...

Thanks,

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator