Wanted: Smooth Uninstallation!

[Brad Adrian]

WHY can't more Pocket PC software developers create applications that uninstall as neatly and cleanly as they install?!?! Over the course of the past two days I've blown over four hours trying to get a simple set of utilities to uninstall from my Pocket PC, and it's got me furious! The uninstallation kept just a enough vestiges of the program in place to create an error message at each and every power-on and each time it took three screen taps remove the error message. <br /><br />I finally figured out where the hack -- er, developer -- had gone wrong, but I'm also upset that this kind of ugly uninstallation is so common. I test a lot of software (as I'm sure a lot of our readers do), and it seems like I am constantly cleaning up files and directories left behind by incomplete uninstallations.<br /><br />It doesn't have to be this way!!!

[griph]

It doesn't have to be this way!!!

I agree with you - and all too often it seems to be Today plugins that are the worst!.. Despite deactivating the plugin (untiicking it) and soft resetting before hand these often resist unloading. An example is JGUI's MY CLOCk - I must email the author to see how I should remove this without a hard reset as everytime it reports that the programme is either in ROM, in use or is read only! None of which is true. I have tried and tried and it just sits there! :cry:

[Ed Hansberry]

Ouch!

[Foo Fighter]

Yes, uninstall issues are all too common with PPC. I routinely receive error messages in Add/Remove like "ERROR: This file could not be removed", or my favorite...the app uninstalls correctly, but the shortcut icon is still left behind in the Program folder. So I have to use File Explorer to clean up what Add/Remove left behind. :grumble:

[SassKwatch]

but I'm also upset that this kind of ugly uninstallation is so common. I test a lot of software (as I'm sure a lot of our readers do), and it seems like I am constantly cleaning up files and directories left behind by incomplete uninstallations.

Amen!

But I don't see this as a PocketPC only problem. I run into the same thing on every Windows based platform. Not being a developer, I've often wondered whether it's a Windows problem or a developer problem. Either way, it just annoys the heck out of me that so many 'uninstalled' programs leave at least a few files and their installation directory resident on my machine. Even more rare is for all relevant Registry keys to be 'uninstalled'.

[CESkins]

...how I should remove this without a hard reset as everytime it reports that the programme is either in ROM, in use or is read only! None of which is true. I have tried and tried and it just sits there! :cry:
I have found that for programs which resist removal at the level of the PocPC File Explorer (or Resco's File Explorer) that you can use ActiveSync's Explorer to remove the offending app. I had some font files installed by an app and it seemed no matter what I did I could not remove the font files manually after uninstalling the app. The files kept being reported as in use or ROM. I finally used the Activesync file explorer and I was able to remove the font files using that. You may want to give it a try if you haven't already.

[yawanag]

I certainly would like to see a program that would remove all the files installed. I've used "Remover," "CleanUP" and I won't know that there are some files left unless I go into the registry looking for something else and discover that the folder is still there.

I'm sure that I could gain a lot of memory if I could just perform a clean uninstall.

[griph]

You may want to give it a try if you haven't already.

Thanks for the advice - I shall give it a try. :-)

[proutpa]

Hey Brad, how about a forum section dedicated to software that uninstalls good and uninstalls bad.

With PPCT popularity and power I'm sure it would influence developers to get on the "good" list and/or get off the "bad" list.

Just a thought.

[Paragon]

Brad, and the rest of ther MVP's on the team.....What do you think would be involved in having a program of Microsoft Certified applications? Or some organization that would set some minimum standards. Would the effort behind something like this be too much for the still relatively small size of the Pocket PC software market?

I don't mean that every piece of software for PPCs would have to meet those standards, but if an application had the certification it would give the consumer some assurance that they were getting something of a certain level of quality. It could be the the next step in Pocket PC's maturity!

Dave

[CESkins]

Uninstallation routines on the desktop can be just as sloppy as those on the PocketPC. I doubt that all programmers if given an incentive to improve the uninstallers would do so given that some of the developers don't have much too loose. It seems that the big boys who have much invested in PocPC software have very good uninstallation routines whereas it's hit or miss with other smaller developers. What I would like to see is all apps remove their registry entries on uninstall from the PocPC. Having to manually clean out the keys is time consuming and can potentially cause problems if one is inexperienced. The only reason I can see to keep the registry entries is if one plans on re-installing the software or an update at some later time.

griph let me know if it works.

[brntcrsp]

Hey Brad, how about a forum section dedicated to software that uninstalls good and uninstalls bad.

With PPCT popularity and power I'm sure it would influence developers to get on the "good" list and/or get off the "bad" list.

Just a thought.

Or alternatively create a thread that details some of the more complex uninstalls, thereby serving two purposes; helping users remove unwanted applications and giving a slap on the wrist to those that have poor uninstall routines.

[iPaqDude]

Hey Brad, how about a forum section dedicated to software that uninstalls good and uninstalls bad.

and

Brad, and the rest of ther MVP's on the team.....What do you think would be involved in having a program of Microsoft Certified applications? Or some organization that would set some minimum standards.

Given the state of PocketPC development industry, and the potential of where it can go, this really is not a bad idea. Many of the posters/lurkers of this forum are those that can influence their company's PDA software and hardware purchasing decisions, so this would be a big help. I know Microsoft has a program for this kind of certification as it relates to playing well with the OS, but maybe it needs to be expanded to include all aspects of the application.

Most developers are wanting to do a good job and appreciate the feedback that they get on their products - after all, support and fixing bugs is expensive once you get a fair number of copies out. It's after the bugs have been made public - like in the install/uninstall routines, hangups, etc. - and nothing gets done to fix them that those of us making those decisions need to make a note to shy away from that particular software developer/house.

[Ed Hansberry]

Brad, and the rest of ther MVP's on the team.....What do you think would be involved in having a program of Microsoft Certified applications? Or some organization that would set some minimum standards. Would the effort behind something like this be too much for the still relatively small size of the Pocket PC software market?

I don't mean that every piece of software for PPCs would have to meet those standards, but if an application had the certification it would give the consumer some assurance that they were getting something of a certain level of quality. It could be the the next step in Pocket PC's maturity!
Good idea. I know uninstall is a requirement for the logo, but not sure how much testing is done on that. I'll forward to MS for consideration. Maybe they'll use it and remove the requirement not to have an EXIT command in the app. :wink:

[heov]

i second the use of ska's Remover. Great program... even wipes the registry info so i no longer have to do it manually!

[Warwick]

What we developers need is an installer/uninstaller that is something like what you can use on the desktop, I have been making installers for years, but the first time I looked at the pocket pc installer program it took me so long to work out how to use it I decided to release the app without an installer for the first release.

You tell the installer where you want the program put and what settings and things, and the uninstaller will only remove what it put there in the first place. This means that if the app adds some files and folders then the uninstaller doesnt know they are there. If the installer builder was about 10000 times less cryptic then us developers could add these folders and files into the installer much easier and get them removed in the uninstall.

But as the old saying goes, a bad tradesman always blames his tools. It was the keyboards fault damn it.

[Paragon]

Brad, and the rest of ther MVP's on the team.....What do you think would be involved in having a program of Microsoft Certified applications? Or some organization that would set some minimum standards. Would the effort behind something like this be too much for the still relatively small size of the Pocket PC software market?

I don't mean that every piece of software for PPCs would have to meet those standards, but if an application had the certification it would give the consumer some assurance that they were getting something of a certain level of quality. It could be the the next step in Pocket PC's maturity!
Good idea. I know uninstall is a requirement for the logo, but not sure how much testing is done on that. I'll forward to MS for consideration. Maybe they'll use it and remove the requirement not to have an EXIT command in the app. :wink:

Ed

Until you mentioned the logo I hadn't even thought much of it. I knew there was a program of certification between MS and the developers, but I hadn't seen much of it on the consumer end. I just now went looking for it on a few apps at Handango and Pocket Gear. It is not very prominent even on apps that have it. They have one line that mentions it, and don't show the logo. Some companies that I would think would have it such as Resco don't even mention or display it.

It seems to me that it wouldn't take much effort to ramp this program up....then Brad would whine about bad unistallations. :D

Dave

[Jonathan1]

Reason # 386 why I'm not a fan of the registry.
Install everything into one dir and when I know that dir is deleted I know the app is gone. No vestiges of files. No left behind shortcuts. Its gone. :|

[johnburry]

Brad, and Until you mentioned the logo I hadn't even thought much of it. I knew there was a program of certification between MS and the developers, but I hadn't seen much of it on the consumer end. I just now went looking for it on a few apps at Handango and Pocket Gear. It is not very prominent even on apps that have it. They have one line that mentions it, and don't show the logo. Some companies that I would think would have it such as Resco don't even mention or display it.


You can view all of the "Designed for Windows Mobile" logo'd apps at the Microsoft Catalog http://www.microsoft.com/mobile/catalog. Certified apps for both Pocket PCs and Smartphones are listed there. :D

[Paragon]

Good link, johnburry.

Until this thread, and your link I had forgotten all about the Mobile2Market program.......easy to do if you aren't looking for it. :)

Dave

[kiwi]

I agree.. I usually wait for a review of new software here or and always make backups of my unit before installing software.

I *HATE* software that does not uninstall properly... grr.. especially if I am trialing it and dont want to keep it after it expries!

[Ed Hansberry]

Reason # 386 why I'm not a fan of the registry.
Install everything into one dir and when I know that dir is deleted I know the app is gone. No vestiges of files. No left behind shortcuts. Its gone. :|That isn't a registry issue. it is a sloppy uninstall issue. There are many benefits to the registry, not the least of which are file associations. on the desktop it allows OLE or whatever they call it today. There is room for improvement, but it shouldn't be abandoned.

[trachy]

How much of the incomplete uninstall process is intentional? Don't developers (I'm not one of them) want to leave some trace behind so users don't try to circumvent the trial periods for their product? Just one small part of the problem I know; but even so, I'd think that after entering a registration code it would be easy to set some kind of flag that would allow a complete uninstall.

m2¢. - Drew

[Marc Zimmermann]

[...] or my favorite...the app uninstalls correctly, but the shortcut icon is still left behind in the Program folder. So I have to use File Explorer to clean up what Add/Remove left behind. :grumble:
That *may* also be caused by the fact that the installation originally put it directly on the Start Menu and you manually moved it away or renamed it. There's no way for the uninstaller to track such activity and remove these shortcuts. ;-)

[Marc Zimmermann]

Brad, and the rest of ther MVP's on the team.....What do you think would be involved in having a program of Microsoft Certified applications? Or some organization that would set some minimum standards. Would the effort behind something like this be too much for the still relatively small size of the Pocket PC software market?

There is the "Designed for Pocket PC" logo certification that has pretty thorough uninstallation requirements, too. Logo certification is costly and sometimes the requirements are conflicting with a developer's way of writing an application to make it more useful.

[griph]

griph let me know if it works.

Sorry - it's still there. Whn using the PC Activesync remove or untick it appears to remove it, but when I go back to the iPAq it is still there in the list. The main problem apears to be a dll in the windows directory that cannot be removed - I have even tried to delete it myself - but it just says 'this file may be in use, or is read only ....' I didn't get round to emailing the author, and will do so. Thanks for the advice.

[griph]

i second the use of ska's Remover. Great program... even wipes the registry info so i no longer have to do it manually!
I didn't see anyone propose it! :-( Any chance of the URL for that - I might just have a use for such a piece of software!

[sripathi]

I am blaming the reviewers here. They just tell us how good the program is when they review. Most of the time I uninstall the program within an hour without ever using it later or purchasing it. If they include the uninstallation, installing in the user specified dir instead of copying everything into windows folders etc., in their reviews and knocking a star or two in the final verdict for these things, developers will sure start bothering about the uninstallation and other issues.

[Brad Adrian]

I am blaming the reviewers here...
You have a good point. I know that I don't always try to uninstall an app before I write a review, and that's an important consideration. We always mention if the installation is ugly, but need to also say if the uninstallation is a mess.

[Brad Adrian]

Hey Brad, how about a forum section dedicated to software that uninstalls good and uninstalls bad.
That's not a bad idea, but I also like the other suggestion made here that this be positioned as a "Helpful Tips" kind of forum than something that looks like a slam.

I'll see what the rest of the Team thinks...

[Jason Dunn]

Reason # 386 why I'm not a fan of the registry.
Install everything into one dir and when I know that dir is deleted I know the app is gone. No vestiges of files. No left behind shortcuts. Its gone. :|

Down Mac boy, down! :lol:

[Jason Dunn]

I am blaming the reviewers here. They just tell us how good the program is when they review. Most of the time I uninstall the program within an hour without ever using it later or purchasing it. If they include the uninstallation, installing in the user specified dir instead of copying everything into windows folders etc., in their reviews and knocking a star or two in the final verdict for these things, developers will sure start bothering about the uninstallation and other issues.

A good point, but I'll freely admit that if I like an application, I'll keep it installed, so I'll never even see the uninstall routine until months after I write the review. I'll consider revising the our template to include install/uninstall notes. :-)

[motbe]

What we developers need is an installer/uninstaller that is something like what you can use on the desktop, I have been making installers for years, but the first time I looked at the pocket pc installer program it took me so long to work out how to use it I decided to release the app without an installer for the first release.

From the perspective of a developer who's had to read through the cryptic installation docs, and figure it out, I'm right there with you..

But, the fact is, once you understand it, it's fairly straightforward to create an install. Once I had done my first, it was quite simple to create all the others I've done. I would certainly not pay any money for a utility to create an installation for the PocketPC (unless it gets about 100 times more complicated). Most of the tools right now that exist right now for that task cost $100 or more. Granted, if I was selling my own software, that price wouldn't be a big deal, but since I've not done so thus far, that's $100 extra I have in my pocket. IMHO, the installation framework for the pocketpc is easy to use once you've gotten to the point at which you can understand it (I guess it's that way with everything)

And as well, Microsoft does give you the ability to "Clean" up after yourself on the uninstall. You can create a Setup DLL that automatically gets run before and after the install, and before and after the uninstall. In one of my installs, I have to shut down certain apps, and perform a few other tasks before the installation will complete. It also removes the registry settings it stored...

I guess to most developers (at least those who develop on the side and don't work for big businesses), the install is the last thing they think about. But the thing is, it's the first thing (and the last thing) that the user sees when using an app. So really, the installation is part of the software product, and we developers need to put time into to make sure it works properly.

I agree with possibly putting together a forum for good/bad installs. But I'd really say that you should email the developer, giving them suggestions (in a kind manner) that could improve the install/uninstall process of their product. Developers for the most part do like feedback, and feedback does move them to improve their software. So I'd encourage you to do that first. (Since many developers probably won't be checking this new forum to see if their product is listed)

[rhmorrison]

From the perspective of a developer who's had to read through the cryptic installation docs, and figure it out, I'm right there with you..

But, the fact is, once you understand it, it's fairly straightforward to create an install. Once I had done my first, it was quite simple to create all the others I've done.

:idea: Sounds like a REAL OPPORTUNITY for a developer article. Feel up to the challenge. This is of course based on selfish motives since I am working on a PocketPC program for which I will want to do an install in the near future and such an article would probably save me a lot of time.