Sony Relents: CF Card Slot in New Prosumer Digital Camera

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,112018,tk,dn081503X,00.asp' target='_blank'>http://www.pcworld.com/news/article...n081503X,00.asp</a><br /><br /></div><img src="http://www.pcworld.com/news/graphics/112018-n_081503_SonyF828.jpg" /> "Sony's digital camera line hits new resolution levels with the unveiling of the 8-megapixel Cyber-shot DSC-F828, which sports a new four-color CCD, imaging processor, and a high-end Carl Zeiss lens. The new digital camera is aimed at sophisticated hobbyists, not strictly for professionals, according to Sony. Suggested retail price will be $1200 upon its release in early November, according to Sony.<br /><br />The new entry is a generation beyond the Cyber-shot DSC-717, a well-received 5-megapixel camera. Both have the same large lens, but the new F828 sports a black camera body and packs more power. The unit captures RAW, TIFF, and JPEG image files. It accepts Sony Memory Stick, Memory Stick Pro, CompactFlash, and IBM Microdrive media cards. It has a 7X optical zoom, from 28mm to 200mm (35mm film equivalent) and a 14X digital zoom, according to the company. The mechanical zoom is a new feature for Sony digital cameras. Users can connect the camera to PCs through a USB 2.0 connection."<br /><br />Although an 8 megapixel camera with a 7X optical zoom and four-colour CCD is impressive, what's even more impressive is that this model accepts CompactFlash cards! I routinely hammer Sony for being to Memory Stick-centric, so I'd like to applaud them for creating what appears to be a killer camera that supports CompactFlash. I just might buy a Sony product after all... :wink:

[ctmagnus]

:clap:

They graduated beyond Memory Stick!

8 Mpx!

USB 2.0!

[GoldKey]

Good Job Sony. I always seem to like their products, but there is always a gotcha that stops me from buying (Memory Stick and Palm OS are two biggies). There is an interesting article in Wired this month (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/start.html?pg=2) that mentions how Sony and Apple could probably work together and get some good synergies.

[The Half-Ling]

i just bought a 5 megapixel canon s50...now there is 8mpx...holy****alki...my camera is obsolete...:-p

Jakr-

[szamot]

All cheers for SONY, even though I would never buy anything SONY, strictly on basis of its overly cluttered design in just about everything they make, this camera is definitely a good technological step in the right direction. It certainly offers consumers a greater choice, simply because if you already have CF cards switching to this camera would be a breeze. I always look at the necessary media first before I even consider looking at these things. I have a pile of SD cards from my PDA’s so getting a camera with SD card, at least in my mind, is a natural next step.

[nitrofly]

i just bought a 5 megapixel canon s50...now there is 8mpx...holy****alki...my camera is obsolete...:-p

Jakr-

Canon have an 11.1 MEGAPIXEL camera...!! EOS-1Ds. Check out this sample image, one of the best digital pics I have come across:

1.6MB
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/EOS1DS/downloads/SilverS.jpg

[jfreiman]

Let's be real, Sony is not adopting CF, they are "allowing" it in their product to allow for the IBM Microdrive.

No revelation here - most if not all pro cameras have a CF slot for the Microdrive.

[The Half-Ling]

HOLY CRAP
DID YOU SEE THAT PICTURE...i think im gonna crap myself...

thats insane...my camera sucks :'(

Crying and wollowing,
Jake-

[ricksfiona]

That's an amazing price for the technology you're getting. I would like to see a real professional do a review on it. I know the 5MP Canon has gotten rave reviews. Regardless, this will drive down the price on everything else.

[The Half-Ling]

LMAO that 11.1 MP digital camera retails at a cool 8000.00$ USD

just a little bit on the higher end of the spectrum ;)

Jake-

[SassKwatch]

I would like to see a real professional do a review on it.

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0308/03081502sonydscf828.asp

Undoubtedly, this 'preview' will grow into a full scale review once Phil gets a chance to play with it a little longer.

[Ed Hansberry]

Cool. Weljust won c cheap Sony camera and it is going on eBay immediately. No memory stick products in my house.

[dma1965]

Cool! I may just consider buying a SONY for my next camera. I used to be a pro photographer and was really upset when SONY started using Carl Zeiss lenses, because I refused to buy anything with a proprietary storage format. Panasonic then came out with the Lumix with a Leica lens, which is totally AWESOME, and uses SD/MMC. My friends cannot believe my trip pictures from Italy are digital, and my best friend's wife chose to hang my digital photos of their wedding in the living room (which I took with my Lumix by standing behind the pro photographer) rather than the the "official" ones that the paid the photographer $5000.00 for. No matter what anyone tells you, when it comes to photography, the lens is the single most important part of the equation. The CCD is indeed important on a digital camera, but CCD's are far less expensive to mass produce than quality optics, and as far as optics go, nobody beats Zeiss and Leica. Sure, Nikon and Canon are great, but you can see the difference in pictures when you compare them to German engineered optics :idea:

[marlof]

Ooohh..... this will be high on my short list for a camera to replace my Digilux when time comes. Or shall I go SLR? So many options.... ;)

[moaske]

Cool! I may just consider buying a SONY for my next camera. I used to be a pro photographer and was really upset when SONY started using Carl Zeiss lenses, because I refused to buy anything with a proprietary storage format. Panasonic then came out with the Lumix with a Leica lens, which is totally AWESOME, and uses SD/MMC. My friends cannot believe my trip pictures from Italy are digital, and my best friend's wife chose to hang my digital photos of their wedding in the living room (which I took with my Lumix by standing behind the pro photographer) rather than the the "official" ones that the paid the photographer $5000.00 for. No matter what anyone tells you, when it comes to photography, the lens is the single most important part of the equation. The CCD is indeed important on a digital camera, but CCD's are far less expensive to mass produce than quality optics, and as far as optics go, nobody beats Zeiss and Leica. Sure, Nikon and Canon are great, but you can see the difference in pictures when you compare them to German engineered optics :idea:
Amen brother ! :D
I'm a photographer too, and nothing beats a zeiss indeed 8) But the sony-zeiss is only the next best thing to the real one. It HAS to feature the famous T* coating that got them fame !
In digitalk photography we've also gotten to the point where lenses have too be better again than the registering medium. For a long time it has been the film that had to be improved. Since these CCD's are that small and still feature a ludicrous amount of pixels, the optical system has to be able to reproduce a far higher resolution per -lets say- square inch.
So it's the lensmakers once again that will offer the top-notch equipment :D

[The Half-Ling]

Ya zeiss is indeed a good lens...I heard good things about Kodak's schnider lens...but kodak's are **** ;)

Oh well...sticking to my amateur photography on my s50 :-p

Jake-

[EscapePod]

Just another step in the VHS triumph over BetaMax ..... er, CF over the stick.

[guinness]

Kodak makes a full-frame 35mm DSLR 14 megapixel camera too, but it's not as nice as the full-frame 35mm from Canon. I think Sony realized that MS didn't offer the capacities that most a lot of pro photographers want and most use CF since that it what the major players Canon and Nikon use, Sony can't dominate the professional market like it can with consumer electronics.

[beq]

^ Yeah I just read a brief PCMag review of this $5K 14MP Kodak full-frame (off Nikon) compared to the infamous 11MP Canon (the article should be online too)... Guess CMOS is taking over from both low-end and high-end.

[beq]

There is an interesting article in Wired this month (http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/11.09/start.html?pg=2) that mentions how Sony and Apple could probably work together and get some good synergies.
That was an entertaining read, thanks :D

[qmrq]

i just bought a 5 megapixel canon s50...now there is 8mpx...holy****alki...my camera is obsolete...:-p

Jakr-

Canon have an 11.1 MEGAPIXEL camera...!! EOS-1Ds. Check out this sample image, one of the best digital pics I have come across:

1.6MB
http://web.canon.jp/Imaging/EOS1DS/downloads/SilverS.jpg

I remember looking at that Eos a few months ago.. 8O

There are always other things to consider besides megapixel rating though.. a super sensitive CCD will not produce quality images with a low-end lense, and vice versa. Then there's color integrity, number of CCDs in the camera (most have one), nifty geewhiz features, and so on.

[bjornkeizers]

I hope sony will go from MS to CF on all their future cameras. Every time a friend or relative asks me: "Oh wise one, what digital camera should I buy?" I tell them: anything but a sony because they want to screw their customers.

I was in the market for a good digital camera this summer, but I chose a Canon Digital Ixus V2 over a sony, as I did with my previous purchase. Why? Simply because the sony cameras are too expensive for their features, and it'd mean buying memory stick equipment [card, reader] which I know I'm just not going to use except with my camera.

I'll take CF over any other format any day of the week. It's cheap, it's versatile, it does what I need and it can be used in whatever I want.

[qmrq]

I'll take CF over any other format any day of the week. It's cheap, it's versatile, it does what I need and it can be used in whatever I want.

Yes, yes, yes. :!:

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

We should all send Sony a strong message by going out and making this the best selling digicam every!!

[Philip Colmer]

I hope sony will go from MS to CF on all their future cameras. Every time a friend or relative asks me: "Oh wise one, what digital camera should I buy?" I tell them: anything but a sony because they want to screw their customers.

Just because Sony are promoting their own storage format, how does that equate to screwing their customers?

I was in the market for a good digital camera this summer, but I chose a Canon Digital Ixus V2 over a sony, as I did with my previous purchase. Why? Simply because the sony cameras are too expensive for their features, and it'd mean buying memory stick equipment [card, reader] which I know I'm just not going to use except with my camera.

You often won't need to buy additional memory stick equipment for the simple reason that many (if not most/all) of the Sony devices now support USB, which means you can just connect the device itself to your computer and the computer sees the storage device as a disc.

I'll take CF over any other format any day of the week. It's cheap, it's versatile, it does what I need and it can be used in whatever I want.

That is your personal preference, of course :-)

Memory stick is nice and small, though. I've just bought the Sony DSC-U60 - a very nice SMALL digital camera. It is only 2 mega-pixels but it will make nice 5"x7" snaps ... and it is waterproof to 5ft. That is something that I wanted. Sure, you can buy marine cases for some cameras, but this is one that is designed to be waterproof.

Once you get into physically larger cameras then I think the storage format is less important. Both CF and MS offer quite significant storage capacities now, but as I read on dpreview, the storage size itself might not be the be-all and end-all because you might prefer to use a few smaller cards in case one or two break, get lost or stolen.

On smaller, consumer cameras, the storage format could have more of an impact on the size of the camera and, for consumers, that can be important.

--Philip

[Ed Hansberry]

I hope sony will go from MS to CF on all their future cameras. Every time a friend or relative asks me: "Oh wise one, what digital camera should I buy?" I tell them: anything but a sony because they want to screw their customers.

Just because Sony are promoting their own storage format, how does that equate to screwing their customers?
• Proprietary format that tries to lock you into one OEM
• Dead ends. How happy are Memory Stick device owners today knowing 128MB is their limit unless they have a newer device with the MS Pro?
• Until very recently, they weren't price competitive with SD and CF cards. Still not with CF. Yet Sony went so far out of their way with the NX and NZ series to make the CF drivers incompatible with CF memory cards, only wanting you to use their proprietary CF WLAN card.

Nah. I'll stick with vendors that use technologies that are common and not controlled by one OEM. I work too hard for my money to be roped into one vendor when viable alternatives exist.

[Cortex]

• Proprietary format that tries to lock you into one OEM
• Dead ends. How happy are Memory Stick device owners today knowing 128MB is their limit unless they have a newer device with the MS Pro?
• Until very recently, they weren't price competitive with SD and CF cards. Still not with CF. Yet Sony went so far out of their way with the NX and NZ series to make the CF drivers incompatible with CF memory cards, only wanting you to use their proprietary CF WLAN card.

Nah. I'll stick with vendors that use technologies that are common and not controlled by one OEM. I work too hard for my money to be roped into one vendor when viable alternatives exist.

I'm with you Ed! SONY and Memory Stick sucks!!! The only reason they are going with CF is because Memory Stick sucks soo much that it doesnt offer the memory capacity to store the high res pics this camera creates.

If I did my math right, you cant even stick one 11 MP pic at true color on a Memory Stick.

You might also be asking why I think Memory Stick sucks sooo much?

Because I bought a Sony Vaio laptop that is great except the jerks removed the IR port and stuck in a Memory Stick slot. Not that they had to remove the IR port or anything -- they did that to force people to use their expensive, crappy standard that no machine inherently supports. So I had to buy a $70 floppy converter that is battery powered and I carry around the stupid driver CDROM if I want to use the memory stick on someone elses machine. Not to mention I cant print on IR printers without buying a USB IR adaptor! Well guess what SONY? I now use a SanDisk USB SD Cruzer - hahhahahahahahahahahahahahahah!

[Paul P]

• Proprietary format that tries to lock you into one OEM
• Dead ends. How happy are Memory Stick device owners today knowing 128MB is their limit unless they have a newer device with the MS Pro?
• Until very recently, they weren't price competitive with SD and CF cards. Still not with CF. Yet Sony went so far out of their way with the NX and NZ series to make the CF drivers incompatible with CF memory cards, only wanting you to use their proprietary CF WLAN card.

Nah. I'll stick with vendors that use technologies that are common and not controlled by one OEM. I work too hard for my money to be roped into one vendor when viable alternatives exist.

I don't know about that. The only difference here is that Toshiba and Panasonic try to lock you into using two formats instead of one like Sony. Sony supporting another format is actually a disadvantage to someone like me who uses memory sticks almost exclusively, but it won't affect me either way. And that's not the point because no one twisted my arm, it's just my preference. Truth of the matter is you're not locked into anything anymore so as long as prices of memory continue to decline. Where is the horror in carring a memory stick for my camera and SD for my iPaq. I don't think it's the fact that I can't use the memory stick in my iPaq, nor the fact that I can't use the sd in my camera. Hmmmm...and why can't I use memory stick in my iPaq. Would be nice to have a 1GB memory stick in there. And if I was looking to buy a device and chose one supporting CF, I wouldn't even think of the money I had previously invested in memory sticks. They've served their purpose well and more than made up for their cost.

[Paul P]

If I did my math right, you cant even stick one 11 MP pic at true color on a Memory Stick.

You can't put one 11MP image on a 1GB memory stick? That's news to me. :wink:

[Ed Hansberry]

I don't know about that. The only difference here is that Toshiba and Panasonic try to lock you into using two formats instead of one like Sony.That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.

[Kati Compton]

CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.
Exactly. Sony doesn't play well with others. So if you want to communicate easily between camera, PDA, etc, you need to either have all Sony, or all non-Sony devices. I'll stick with the latter, as I don't like it when companies try THAT hard to rope me into only using their products. I'll use my Canon camera with my Dell Axim, and still be able to read the pictures off CF in a Compaq laptop. Using CF (or SD) just gives you more flexibility in terms of what products you can buy. Unless you've already committed to the Memory Stick format, of course. But that's exactly what I don't like. Now you're committed to Sony.

[Janak Parekh]

That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.
Another important distinction is that CF and SD are designed and supported by a consortium of companies, so multiple companies have input. However, with Memory Stick, Sony dictates everything designwise and license costwise, from start to finish. I can imagine the licensees' anger when Sony released Memory Stick Pro. Can you imagine the support hassles that all the card reader companies have to inevitably go through, for example? I could also imagine Sony requiring another license for use of the MS Pro technology. There's a reason why most handheld companies have studiously avoided Memory Sticks... including palmOne. (I just wanted to try and use that name... :lol:)

In any case, I plan to avoid MS Pro studiously; I already have so many 6-in-1 readers (including USB2), and I don't think any of them will work with MS Pro.

--janak

[Philip Colmer]

That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.
Another important distinction is that CF and SD are designed and supported by a consortium of companies, so multiple companies have input. However, with Memory Stick, Sony dictates everything designwise and license costwise, from start to finish.

Taking that approach to purchases a little wider then, does that mean that neither of you (Ed or Janak) would buy a DVD that has got a Dolby Digital or a DTS soundtrack, simply because the licensing company is in sole control of the technology and controls how it is used? After all, both Dolby & DTS do change the audio format from time to time, which means you've got to go out and buy a brand new amplifier if you want to keep up with technology :-)

I must admit to being somewhat amazed at some of the negative comments being aimed at Sony in this discussion. Whilst I understand the reasoning behind your arguments on the pros of open formats such as CF and SD, surely there is room for a company to decide that it sees the need for a different approach?

If that wasn't the case, the iPAQ with its *proprietary* sleeve design wouldn't have been as popular as it was, would it? And when my iPAQ 3660 is retired later this year, probably for a Dell, I have to accept that any sleeves that I bought for it retire as well.

Both CF and SD will be supplanted at some time in the future. No technology lasts for ever. I've always been a firm believer of buying whatever suits your needs and, for some people, that will mean Memory Stick. That doesn't mean it is a wrong decision - just theirs.

--Philip

[Janak Parekh]

Taking that approach to purchases a little wider then, does that mean that neither of you (Ed or Janak) would buy a DVD that has got a Dolby Digital or a DTS soundtrack, simply because the licensing company is in sole control of the technology and controls how it is used?
I actually don't frequently buy DVDs. ;) I'm also very unhappy with DVDs and the way the MPAA is using litigation to control the format, even more so than Memory Sticks, quite frankly.

I must admit to being somewhat amazed at some of the negative comments being aimed at Sony in this discussion. Whilst I understand the reasoning behind your arguments on the pros of open formats such as CF and SD, surely there is room for a company to decide that it sees the need for a different approach?
Sure, Sony's allowed to do it; I also have a choice not to buy it.

If that wasn't the case, the iPAQ with its *proprietary* sleeve design wouldn't have been as popular as it was, would it?
It's different if no comparable industry standard exists. For the sleeves, the only really comparable technology was Springboards, and that was (is?) a Handspring-proprietary technology, as far as I know.

Both CF and SD will be supplanted at some time in the future. No technology lasts for ever.
CF has actually lasted for many, many years -- 5 and going -- and it shows no signs of ending. Of course technology ends, but non-Pro MS died way too fast, and many people, especially those who bought their very expensive Sony cameras, are now up a creek. I don't think Sony did a proper job of supporting consumers in this specific case.

I've always been a firm believer of buying whatever suits your needs and, for some people, that will mean Memory Stick. That doesn't mean it is a wrong decision - just theirs.
Of course; several of us said we will avoid it, and I generally discourage people I know, but I do so by presenting the facts, and if they've already bought a Sony camera, I'm not going to demand they return it that instant or anything. ;)

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.
Another important distinction is that CF and SD are designed and supported by a consortium of companies, so multiple companies have input. However, with Memory Stick, Sony dictates everything designwise and license costwise, from start to finish.

Taking that approach to purchases a little wider then, does that mean that neither of you (Ed or Janak) would buy a DVD that has got a Dolby Digital or a DTS soundtrack, simply because the licensing company is in sole control of the technology and controls how it is used
I would if only those DVDs only played in one brand of DVD players.

[GoldKey]

Taking that approach to purchases a little wider then, does that mean that neither of you (Ed or Janak) would buy a DVD that has got a Dolby Digital or a DTS soundtrack, simply because the licensing company is in sole control of the technology and controls how it is used? After all, both Dolby & DTS do change the audio format from time to time, which means you've got to go out and buy a brand new amplifier if you want to keep up with technology :-)

I can pretty much play a DVD in any DVD player and run it through my amp without a problem. Any proprietary standards are either so widely adopted or implemented in such a manner that it seems transparent to me as an enduser.

Since I had CF on my first PPC, I made the conscious decision to purchase cameras and other perhiperals that used the same format. This did not lock me into one vendor. Had I purchased a Sony camera, are there any PPC's that take memory stick?

[Cortex]

If I did my math right, you cant even stick one 11 MP pic at true color on a Memory Stick.

You can't put one 11MP image on a 1GB memory stick? That's news to me. :wink:

I didnt realize they had gigabyte memory sticks... Is it the new format that is incompatable with prior memory stick slots?

Am I wrong about this -- an 11 MP image with true color (24 bits per pixel) = 33 MBytes per image without compression?

[maximus]

Maybe my eyes are blurred, but did it say "Program AE min shutter = 1 second" ??

here (http://www.dpreview.com/articles/sonydscf828/)

[maximus]

In any case, I plan to avoid MS Pro studiously; I already have so many 6-in-1 readers (including USB2), and I don't think any of them will work with MS Pro.
--janak

And I am avoiding all sony's products with no SD nor CF slot installed. Companies with proprietary software/hardware/design should all be brought down to their knees ! :devilboy:

[maximus]

Ooohh..... this will be high on my short list for a camera to replace my Digilux when time comes. Or shall I go SLR? So many options.... ;)

SLR all they way. With all the lenses that you can choose from ... FS828 is a nice device, but problem is, it has fixed lens. If the lens is not good enough for you, the only thing you can do is to sell the camera, and buy a new one. With SLRs ... you can go all the way through the mazes of lenses out there.

p.s. In my personal opinion, carl zeiss lenses are just an overhyped marketing ploy from sony. Nothing special. My sigma SD9 can take better picture from those carl-seized cameras.

[Prevost]

Just another step in the VHS triumph over BetaMax ..... er, CF over the stick.And cassetes (or CDs) over MiniDisc...do not forget MiniDisc! :mrgreen:

Still do not know what to think about Sony. Probably I am wrong, but I am biased toward thinking they only pursuit getting everybody knowing they are the best around ... I still remember the two sony CD players I had... both sucked.

I am affraid they will chase after JVC with a Pocket PC. :pukeface2: ...memory stick included :mrgreen:

[Prevost]

And about the photo...well, the image of those little scratches on the spoon is just incredible...my monitor is not good enough to render it properly I think :mrgreen:

[Jason Dunn]

Let's be real, Sony is not adopting CF, they are "allowing" it in their product to allow for the IBM Microdrive. No revelation here - most if not all pro cameras have a CF slot for the Microdrive.

Right, but this is the first time to my knowledge that they've ever done this before. This is not a pro camera - it's a prosumer design, not an SLR design with removable lenses. Sony doesn't MAKE pro cameras. Has Sony allowed CF cards on any other camera in the past? If so, please tell me which one.

[Jason Dunn]

CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.

To be clear, SD is not. SD is controlled by Panasonic's Japanese parent company, and everyone who makes SD cards has to pay a royalty to Panasonic. To be sure, we're seeing more players in the SD camp, but at the basic level SD is no different than Memory Sticks - just much broader adoption and thus more palatable to us. :wink:

MMC is the open standard version of SD. Poor, sad MMC. :|

[maximus]

To be clear, SD is not. SD is controlled by Panasonic's Japanese parent company,

Ah yes, the Matsu****a Electrics.

and everyone who makes SD cards has to pay a royalty to Panasonic.

Since SDs are jointly invented by Panasonic, Toshiba and Sandisk, Toshiba and Sandisk should be free from paying the royalty, right ?

To be sure, we're seeing more players in the SD camp, but at the basic level SD is no different than Memory Sticks - just much broader adoption and thus more palatable to us. :wink:
MMC is the open standard version of SD. Poor, sad MMC. :|

Consider MMC as memory stic(n)ks, and SD as memory stinks pro. :D

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Just another step in the VHS triumph over BetaMax ..... er, CF over the stick.And cassetes (or CDs) over MiniDisc...do not forget MiniDisc! :mrgreen:

This is a different kind of debate than the VHS/BetaMax or Cassettes/CD/MiniDisc ones. In those cases, both BetaMax and MiniDiscs were/are clearly technically superior to the de facto that they compete against. In both cases, Sony failed because the competing standard had already been too widely accepted.

In the case of MS... there is no clear technical merit to using MS over the more universally accepted CF and SD formats.

[Janak Parekh]

To be clear, SD is not. SD is controlled by Panasonic's Japanese parent company, and everyone who makes SD cards has to pay a royalty to Panasonic.
Isn't there a consortium dictating SD's designs (such as the three companies Maximus refers to)? I thought it was more than just strictly Panasonic. Otherwise, why would all the companies pick it over Sony? Perhaps the licensing fees are less?

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

To be clear, SD is not. SD is controlled by Panasonic's Japanese parent company, and everyone who makes SD cards has to pay a royalty to Panasonic.
Isn't there a consortium dictating SD's designs (such as the three companies Maximus refers to)? I thought it was more than just strictly Panasonic. Otherwise, why would all the companies pick it over Sony? Perhaps the licensing fees are less?
You peaked my curiosity as well. I just went through some of the licensing documents for both SD (http://www.sdcard.org) and Memory Stick (http://www.memorystick.org). I'm not sure I'm reading the documents correctly, but it seems that both organizations charge a yearly licensing fee to companies that wish to design, manufacture, sell hardware compatible with SD/MS.

For SD, the licensing fee that I saw was $1,000 per year. For MS, Sony charges by the yen at 500,000 yen (approximately $4,000-$4,500 USD per year). Neither appear to charge any running royalties. The SD organization comprises of 618 "member" companies (many which do have input into the direction of SD) whereas MS comprises of 471 "supporting" companies (refers only to companies that support MS in their products).

[Paul P]

That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.

I've never heard of anyone choosing Clie over Pocket PC because of memory stick he or she already had. That's just ludicrous to me. I think it's fair to say Sony was the first to aggressively push the memory card as new means of easily transferring data between its products. Panasonic and Toshiba weren't really in the picture as far as I am concerned (or rather their efforts weren’t as intense). Looking back, all I see is one company trying to differentiate and be competitive. Memory stick was actually a good thing, as it stepped up the level of competition from other companies. I wouldn't want ‘one’ company and one standard at the expense of stifled innovation. Sony was under pressure to step up capacity and Panasonic/Toshiba was under pressure to capture share. I think SD would have taken much longer to expand its capabilities had it not been for memory stick. A company only wants to improve when there is a reason to. I think Sony is a pretty good reason.

[Ed Hansberry]

That is like saying Dell is trying to lock you into one format by only offering a 3.5" floppy drive. CF and SD are open. Many PDA and camera vendors use them. You are not stuck with Sony products.

I've never heard of anyone choosing Clie over Pocket PC because of memory stick he or she already had. That's just ludicrous to me.
Oh come on. If you have $200 invested in Memory Sticks and you are getting ready to abandon your 2 year old Clie and looking for a new device, don't tell me a new investment in memory cards doesn't impact your decision. I would never consider buying a Pocket PC that didn't use SD cards. I have too much invested in SD to just abandon it. Ditto CF. My next camera will use CF or SD too. No way am I buying another new card format.

[Paul P]

Exactly. Sony doesn't play well with others. So if you want to communicate easily between camera, PDA, etc, you need to either have all Sony, or all non-Sony devices. I'll stick with the latter, as I don't like it when companies try THAT hard to rope me into only using their products. I'll use my Canon camera with my Dell Axim, and still be able to read the pictures off CF in a Compaq laptop. Using CF (or SD) just gives you more flexibility in terms of what products you can buy. Unless you've already committed to the Memory Stick format, of course. But that's exactly what I don't like. Now you're committed to Sony.

That's so extreme. I use just about every brand. It's just memory stick. Don't be afraid. :) A card reader eliminates most of the hassle. I don't even use the memory stick slot in my vaio. You won't be able to use xD in Axim or Compaq as well.

Then again, I might be brainwashed by Sony, so who knows.

[Paul P]

Oh come on. If you have $200 invested in Memory Sticks and you are getting ready to abandon your 2 year old Clie and looking for a new device, don't tell me a new investment in memory cards doesn't impact your decision. I would never consider buying a Pocket PC that didn't use SD cards. I have too much invested in SD to just abandon it. Ditto CF. My next camera will use CF or SD too. No way am I buying another new card format.

How much do you have invested in CF? If you still have your very first CF card with a massive 32MB capacity, then you shouldn't be buying digital anything period. Why bother? You will have to invest in memory cards whether you like it or not. What's changed, however, is the affordability of memory cards. I have about $150 invested in memory sticks (most of the cost was recouped because I sold some of them). Whatever I had invested in memory sticks made ZERO impact on my decision to buy iPaq (well, more like 4 decision since I kept upgrading until 5455). Why would it impact my decision since one product is clearly superior to the other? It's the cost of $150 versus $650. The $150 figure is also the historic cost and one that I do not consider a sunk cost because it gave me benefits Panasonic or Toshiba could not offer at the time.

[Ed Hansberry]

How much do you have invested in CF?
$600 in 2 128MB and one 256MB card, a 56K modem, a CAT5 ethernet and an 802.11B WiFi card. $400 in a 128mb and a 512MB SD card. No way am I considering a card format switch, I don't care how cool the device is.

[Janak Parekh]

I think it's fair to say Sony was the first to aggressively push the memory card as new means of easily transferring data between its products.
I don't agree with this at all. CF has been around for ages, and it's compatible with the PC card format -- instantaneous adoption amongst every laptop on the market. Sony, instead of adopting a very widespread, standard format (that scales without needing a rerelease), decided to use their market might in trying to invent a new format, one they have sole control of the future over.

Now, the argument that MS is smaller also mixed. The free, open MMC format was around for a long time as well, and they ignored that.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

You won't be able to use xD in Axim or Compaq as well.
I think I probably speak for Ed and Kati in that we hate xD as well (feel free to correct me if you don't think so). It's even worse than SD/MS as it has no controller built in, which means that it will have a limited lifespan, much like SmartMedia. xD? :pukeface: ;)

--janak

[maximus]

Sony was under pressure to step up capacity

I beg to differ. CFs will always have more capacity than memory stinks.

and Panasonic/Toshiba was under pressure to capture share. I think SD would have taken much longer to expand its capabilities had it not been for memory stick. A company only wants to improve when there is a reason to. I think Sony is a pretty good reason.

There is always a reason for a company to improve: cash flow.

SD manufacturers do not need sony's competition to always improve. These two memory cards have different niche of the market. Memory stinks have sony's products, SD cards have everything else but sony. It is like saying Toyota Motor has to keep improving, because it is in direct competition with Citibank.

[maximus]

That's so extreme. I use just about every brand. It's just memory stick. Don't be afraid. :) A card reader eliminates most of the hassle.

Well, I personally do not want to carry 3 different memory cards everytime I go somewhere. Two is more than enough for me.

I don't even use the memory stick slot in my vaio. You won't be able to use xD in Axim or Compaq as well.

xD ? what is that ? :wink: :razz:

I have about $150 invested in memory sticks (most of the cost was recouped because I sold some of them).

I dont get that. So your used memory stinks are more expensive than the new memory stinks ? you sold some, and you recouped the whole $150 ?

Whatever I had invested in memory sticks made ZERO impact on my decision to buy iPaq (well, more like 4 decision since I kept upgrading until 5455).

BUT, if there is a version of ipaq with memory stinks slot, will you buy that type ? :wink:

The $150 figure is also the historic cost and one that I do not consider a sunk cost because it gave me benefits Panasonic or Toshiba could not offer at the time.

And that benefits are ... ? CF is on the market before memory stinks. I dont see any benefit of memory stinks compared to CFs.

[Paul P]

I beg to differ. CFs will always have more capacity than memory stinks.

I wasn't arguing that. CFs will always have more capacity over both memory sticks, SDs, and any other format that's out there. The advantage of CF is also its disadvantage, ie its size. What I was trying to convey is explained below..........

There is always a reason for a company to improve: cash flow.

Before you can realize cash flows you must understand the industry, the market, and the competition. There is no point in manufacturing a product unless you consider those factors and can be sure that your product will be superior to that of what is already on the market.

SD manufacturers do not need sony's competition to always improve. These two memory cards have different niche of the market. Memory stinks have sony's products, SD cards have everything else but sony. It is like saying Toyota Motor has to keep improving, because it is in direct competition with Citibank.

I am not sure what you mean by that analogy. We are talking about digital cameras, PDAs, notebooks, etc. We are not talking about companies in different industries here. If Sony introduces an innovative product that utilizes memory stick format and the market jumps on it, you better believe Panasonic and Toshiba are watching closely. Competition is not just about memory card formats, it's also about innovation. Sorry, but I think you are drifting away from the issue at hand.

[Paul P]

I dont get that. So your used memory stinks are more expensive than the new memory stinks ? you sold some, and you recouped the whole $150 ?

I just had some old memory sticks, like 64MBs which I sold. Sorry, didn't mean to confuse you. My point was that it's not a major stumbling block in a way of buying something SD compatible.

BUT, if there is a version of ipaq with memory stinks slot, will you buy that type ? :wink:

Of course. But then again, I would buy an iPaq even if it used.........well, you name it, I'd buy it. :) But that's besides the point.

And that benefits are ... ? CF is on the market before memory stinks. I dont see any benefit of memory stinks compared to CFs.

I said 'at the time,' when not only I could use the memory stick in my camera (obviously), but also my laptop, mp3 player, and digital recorder. Only recently have manufacturers started to include memory card slots in their notebooks and other devices beside cameras and pdas (I guess I shouldn't say recently, but as I remember I couldn't find a lot of products using memory cards 3 or more years ago). Did I feel locked into using memory stick? Nope. I was using it because of the convenience other companies could not offer 'at the time.' It's all different now of course. It didn't take long for others to follow. :wink:

[Paul P]

How much do you have invested in CF?
$600 in 2 128MB and one 256MB card, a 56K modem, a CAT5 ethernet and an 802.11B WiFi card. $400 in a 128mb and a 512MB SD card. No way am I considering a card format switch, I don't care how cool the device is.

It's a sunk cost, and you got your return on the investment. Will having an 802.11b Wifi preclude you from buying anything with built-in Wifi in the future?

Don't you have an iPaq? The sleeve pretty much killed any chance of me ever getting anything CF. Sleeve or no sleeve, I don't really see HP supporting the CF format. The 2215 was an answer to Axim. Whether people like it or not, it will fade away from most consumer electronics. Like I said, the size is its only advantage, but SD is creeping up fast. The cost is the only thing keeping CF alive. I think it's safe to say that higher-end iPaqs will never have built-in CF. So basically you are stuck with using a sleeve. It's like buying a fat Clie with CF built-in.
I can definitely understand why you would never want to switch. But all the things you listed above would make me feel locked-in actually. You have Sony against all these companies and I don't see why one or the other must make a compromise.

[Kati Compton]

But all the things you listed above would make me feel locked-in actually. You have Sony against all these companies and I don't see why one or the other must make a compromise.
But the point is, being locked in to the CF format isn't being locked in to any one company's products, as happens if someone is locked in to memory stick.

[Paul P]

But the point is, being locked in to the CF format isn't being locked in to any one companies products, as happens if someone is locked in to memory stick.

That's just my feeling. Also, I think it's just a difference of opinion. This is not a case, however, of Panasonic and Toshiba trying to become consumer advocates by joining forces, far from it. It was simply their strategy to compete against Sony and capture market share. And that, of course, is what competition is all about. The two sides were both greedy, simple as that, and neither wanted to cave in. If Sony wasn't in the picture, there would be one format from Panasonic and a different one from Toshiba. Because in a scenario where there are two companies and one format, one company would always lose money every time the other made a superior product.

[Janak Parekh]

It's a sunk cost, and you got your return on the investment. Will having an 802.11b Wifi preclude you from buying anything with built-in Wifi in the future?
It's not the cost of just the WiFi card, it's the cost of the pile of goodies.

Don't you have an iPaq? The sleeve pretty much killed any chance of me ever getting anything CF.
Uh, why? I owned a 3650 and a 3870 and used a CF sleeve with both of them. The CF+ sleeve, the Silver Slider, and the Whitney case are all very thin and versatile. I totally disagree with your assertion that HP isn't supporting the CF format.

Whether people like it or not, it will fade away from most consumer electronics.
No way. Almost every medium-sized digital camera, except Sony's, uses CF. CF adoption is still growing, not shrinking.

The cost is the only thing keeping CF alive.
CF will always be ahead of SD/MS in terms of cost-per-megabyte, and it is pretty darn compact.

You have Sony against all these companies and I don't see why one or the other must make a compromise.
Maybe you're thinking a different argument than I. Imagine Sony decided that they didn't like Phillips's CD standards, and decided to invent a new format of CDs for their computers and DiscMan players. Wouldn't the lack of interoperability bother you?

(In fact, Sony did just this, with their MiniDisc technology, and it's been an utter failure in the market because, among other reasons, people can't exchange media.)

--janak

[maximus]

If Sony introduces an innovative product that utilizes memory stick format and the market jumps on it, you better believe Panasonic and Toshiba are watching closely. Competition is not just about memory card formats, it's also about innovation. Sorry, but I think you are drifting away from the issue at hand.

No matter how innovative sony's product is, if it is only using memory stinks, no CF, no SD, it will have hardtime getting the market to adopt it.

Imagine the F828 digital camera without CF slot. Will the market jump on it ? I dont think so. It will be just another predecessor of F717, a so-so camera with a storage format that is not compatible with everything else.

[Paul P]

It's not the cost of just the WiFi card, it's the cost of the pile of goodies.

We started off talking about memory. How much do these 2 128MB CFc cost now? If it's the cost of jumping ships presently, then how can you consider historic costs. There is a lot of goodies on that list, but how many pocket pc owners have 56k and network CFs? Or what if Ed wants a 1940? Also, I've probably drifted from the topic at hand myself: we're talking about Sony trying to lock-in customers, not to lock out those that aren't.

Uh, why? I owned a 3650 and a 3870 and used a CF sleeve with both of them. The CF+ sleeve, the Silver Slider, and the Whitney case are all very thin and versatile. I totally disagree with your assertion that HP isn't supporting the CF format.

A sleeve is a sleeve. It's obviously a great accessory, but come on, it's a hassle. Silver Sliders look great and are amazingly thin, but having your PDA in something other than a case ruins it for me. Probably ruins for most people who prefer to carry iPaq naked.

No way. Almost every medium-sized digital camera, except Sony's, uses CF. CF adoption is still growing, not shrinking.

I am not exactly sure how much market share SD has at the moment, but I think it is safe to say that its growth has exploded in the past 2 years. CF is more predominant because it's cheaper to manufacture. Also, whenever a new device comes out, be it a camera or a pda, size is always one of the aspects that draws a lot of attention (brick this, brick that). The natural progression of technology revolves around making electronics smaller and smaller. CF does not factor into that equation. This, of course, doesn't apply to the professional cameras, so CF will be apart of that market for a while.

CF will always be ahead of SD/MS in terms of cost-per-megabyte, and it is pretty darn compact.

Right now, yes, it certainly looks that way. However,that remains to be seen. As I've said above, if most of the cameras and PDAs will get smaller and smaller, so will CFs market share in the consumer market. And CF [i]was]/i] pretty darn compact, but that's no longer the case when compared to SD.


Maybe you're thinking a different argument than I. Imagine Sony decided that they didn't like Phillips's CD standards, and decided to invent a new format of CDs for their computers and DiscMan players. Wouldn't the lack of interoperability bother you?

(In fact, Sony did just this, with their MiniDisc technology, and it's been an utter failure in the market because, among other reasons, people can't exchange media.)

--janak

Sony had its share of failures, sure, but it's not the only company that attempt to introduce new standards. Panasonic pushes their standards as well. Like, for example, DVD-R. Of course, Sony introduced their own standard as well, but they were also the first to come out with a DVD burner that supported all standards.

Minidiscs came out when MP3 players didn't really have presence. I think most MP3 players had internal memory, if not all. And as memory cards became more standard, they were still limited in capacity and affordability. At the time, minidisks were cheaper than memory, smaller than CDs, and they were not tapes (I feel woozy saying that word :) ). When MP3 players started to flood the market, the advantages were obvious.

[Janak Parekh]

Also, I've probably drifted from the topic at hand myself: we're talking about Sony trying to lock-in customers, not to lock out those that aren't.
Not really -- by using CF, you protect your investment as a majority of manufacturers support the form factor.

A sleeve is a sleeve. It's obviously a great accessory, but come on, it's a hassle.
Sorry, I don't agree there. :) I carried iPAQs with sleeves for more than three years in my pockets. If you don't like sleeves, like I said, get a Whitney case (http://www.madebywhitney.com/). I've held one, and it's only fractionally thicker than a regular case. Absolutely amazing work.

I am not exactly sure how much market share SD has at the moment, but I think it is safe to say that its growth has exploded in the past 2 years.
No argument.

Also, whenever a new device comes out, be it a camera or a pda, size is always one of the aspects that draws a lot of attention (brick this, brick that). The natural progression of technology revolves around making electronics smaller and smaller.
True, and yet, you can integrate CF into pretty darn small devices. When you're in a store, check out the Canon PowerShot S400. Mind you, SD does nicely fill the niche for ultra-small devices, but again, SD is broadly supported, so I can easily buy a camera and a Pocket PC and have them interoperate.

Sony had its share of failures, sure, but it's not the only company that attempt to introduce new standards. Panasonic pushes their standards as well. Like, for example, DVD-R. Of course, Sony introduced their own standard as well, but they were also the first to come out with a DVD burner that supported all standards.
Writable DVD standards are just a mess, and I won't even go there. The Sony DVD+-RW is one of the first times I've seen Sony attempt to embrace all standards, and that division should be applauded. (BTW, if you want the ultimate DVD+-RW drive, check out this Plextor (http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html) drive. Amazing.)

Minidiscs came out when MP3 players didn't really have presence.
They came out even before MP3 players were around. But they never took off, due to limited market penetration, and lack of broad adoption. If they had, the history of MP3 players would have been different. Minidisc is a lot like MP3 in that it uses a lossy compression codec (ATRAC), and it's actually cool in some ways. But it was too proprietary.

--janak

[paulevs]

At last Sony realises that people use CF Memory Cards rather than their own brand of Memory Stick !! - Finally !! :D