It's not hard to use "it's" properly, yet...

[hamishmacdonald]

"It's" is always a contraction of the words "it" and "is", and does not denote possession of something.

Still, every day I read one review or another from someone in the tech community — whose members I would assume are generally pretty clever — in which the author uses this word incorrectly. (Or else uses what's called "the grocer's apostrophe", as in "Banana's for sale", which would mean "Banana is for sale".)

So, here it is:
Its is possessive.
Always charge its battery.

It's is short for "it is".
It's important to keep the battery charged.

This is a great grammar reference website if you want to brush up on apostrophes and other parts of speech:
http://www.protrainco.com/info/grammar.htm

Some people think that talking about grammar and spelling is somehow elitist. It's not. These things are tools for transmitting ideas in the clearest, most powerful way, and as a writer who's passionately committed to a lifetime of getting better at what I do, I can't imagine not caring about these things and still calling myself a writer.

When I read a review that contains these sorts of errors, I tend to unconsciously discount the piece as amateur, since the writer has ignored or doesn't care about good, accepted practices of style. These mistakes are rampant on the Internet, and I think that partly accounts for the tendency in some circles to dismiss it as a source of good information — which is a shame, since it's the biggest democratising force since the printing press.

[maximus]

I really dont want to be rude, but english is my 4th language. Sometime, when I was typing in english, my native language interfere with my thinking concept, thus sometimes it managed to screw up the actual sentence that I typed.

To give you a vizualization of what I said in the above paragraph, why dont you translate your post above to mandarin. When you are done with that, re-translate that mandarin paragraph into kanji. Then give me a pm, and we will discuss your grammar.

[hamishmacdonald]

Yes, well, ideally I could speak every language in the world. But that's not going to happen in one lifetime. I've devoted myself to being a writer in the English language. My comment was addressed to others who say they've done the same, and write professional commentary, then ignore the accepted practices of the language and profession.

I have a number of writer-friends whose second language is English, and some of them are stunning, talented writers whose ability exceeds that of most native English-speakers. So it's possible. But I have a great deal of respect for anyone who can speak additional languages to any degree. (I've only got English and a smattering of American Sign Language.)

My standards are for me, generally. When I get e-mails and instant messages from friends, I don't care much about their spelling and grammar because they're not trying to be writers, they're just communicating. But for published reviews, my standards come back out.

[FredMurphy]

I completely agree with this. This might not be too bad in a hastily typed email that's pretty much throw-away but the thing that always amazes me is when someone has put quite some effort into something and doesn't bother to get it right.

The worst I saw was in Autralia a few years ago. (Apologies to any Aussies on here :wink: .) Seen a similar problem with accented letters too. I've seen prefessionally made neon signs and signwritten shopfronts in Melbourne saying "Caf'e" and even a coffee shop called "Cafè Cremé" (should have been "Café Crème")

If you're not sure that's nothing to be ashamed of, but if you're putting some time into something then take some extra time to find out.

Maximus - I don't think anyone is criticising someone who's writing in a language which isn't their first. I'm pretty bad at anything other than English.

[Steven Cedrone]

which is a shame, since it's the biggest democratising force since the printing press.

You misspelled "democratising" (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=democratizing)... :wink:

Steve

[Crystal Eitle]

I agree with you totally, hamishmacdonald, and I think you put it pretty diplomatically.

Unlike this comic (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif).... :mrgreen:

[Crystal Eitle]

which is a shame, since it's the biggest democratising force since the printing press.

You misspelled "democratising" (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=democratizing)... :wink:

Steve
Er, I think that's the accepted British spelling.

Although I think it's almost a universal law that any internet post which criticizes grammar and spelling is guaranteed to have at least one grammar or spelling error in it. :wink:

[maximus]

Maximus - I don't think anyone is criticising someone who's writing in a language which isn't their first. I'm pretty bad at anything other than English.

It's OK. I am merely trying to mention the fact that we are here, in this amazing forum, primarily to talk/exchange information regarding a cool device called PPC, to chat between friend, to make friendly jokes among ourselves, etc.

I am here not to enhance my grammatical skill. I had enough 'grammar' lesson in my pascal/c++/prolog/fortran/RPG classes. So what if someone made small mistakes in their posts or their reviews ? To err is human. To not err is to accept Borg's Assimilation.

Its a PPC ! Always put it in it's cradle ! :mrgreen:

[maximus]

which is a shame, since it's the biggest democratising force since the printing press.

You misspelled "democratising" (http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=democratizing)... :wink:

Steve

I agree with you totally, hamishmacdonald, and I think you put it pretty diplomatically.

Unlike this comic (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif).... :mrgreen:

5 AM, and these two start posting already. :mrgreen: Just curious, are you guys going to go back to sleep, or are you getting ready to work ?

[Steven Cedrone]

Although I think it's almost a universal law that any internet post which criticizes grammar and spelling is guaranteed to have at least one grammar or spelling error in it. :wink:

I know, I was only joking... :lol:

As I've said in other posts: I only speak two languages, English and bad English...* :wink:

Steve

* Quote from a SF movie. Anyone care to guess which???

[aroma]

5 AM, and these two start posting already. :mrgreen: Just curious, are you guys going to go back to sleep, or are you getting ready to work ?

What is even worse, is that they're not only posting, but already spell checking other's posts. :)

[hollis_f]

Ooh, ooh - can we mention other common errors that drive us insane?

There - Not here
Their - Belonging to them
They're - They are

[TopDog]

Ooh, ooh - can we mention other common errors that drive us insane?Try debating/writing fast in a second language and you'll understand that it's not always so easy to get all the small typo's right...

Now, how many err's did I make now :?: :lol:

[hamishmacdonald]

Re: "democratising", I live in Scotland now, so I've retrained myself to spell all my Z-verbs with Ss. And to use "tyre" instead of "tire", "kerb" instead of "curb", and "boak" instead of "puke" :wink: . (The Scots dialect has many wonderful words, the majority of which seem to mean "dirty" or "drunk" — perhaps this is of necessity, like the Innu supposedly having forty words for types of snow.)

I'd make a distinction, though, between postings in here and reviews which appear on the front page — not so much the editorial comments, but the actual reviews.

I was just going to say "You'd never see those mistakes in print", except that I often do.

I'm passionate about writing well, because it's the closest thing we have to telepathy: I can package my thoughts in these little squiggles, and you can unravel them on your end and know that I was thinking. I think that's amazing. There are ways to make this ability work even better, and style is just one of them.

It's a good analogy to make, comparing writing to programming: you couldn't skip the "grammar" in your coding without expecting something to crash on the user's end.

[trachy]

* Quote from a SF movie. Anyone care to guess which???

Aah... The Fifth Element.....good flick.

[trachy]

Ooh, ooh - can we mention other common errors that drive us insane?Try debating/writing fast in a second language and you'll understand that it's not always so easy to get all the small typo's right...

Now, how many err's did I make now :?: :lol:

Well, actually you shouldn't place an apostrophe in the word "typo's." ;-)

[easylife]

Try debating/writing fast in a second language and you'll understand that it's not always so easy to get all the small typo's right...

Now, how many err's did I make now :?: :lol:

Just two overall in your post: "typo's" should be "typos", and similarly "err's" should be "errs" :wink: Other than that it looks great! :D

EDIT: ya beat me to the punch, trachy! :wink:

[trachy]

Ooh, ooh - can we mention other common errors that drive us insane?

Here a couple that drive me bonkers:

- Proper usage of Your and You're
- Proper usage of To, Too, and Two
- Mispelling the word definitely as definately
- Mispelling the word traveling as travelling

The sad thing is that despite my obsession for spelling things correctly, I find I screw these up myself more and more often. I'm definitely a victim of passion. When I get in the zone on a subject my fingers start flying and leave a wake of gibberish. :-)

[hamishmacdonald]

Ha! Nice to know I'm not a complete freak. (Or at least not the only one.)

Blame my mother. She's been a secretary all her life, and drilled this stuff into me from an early age. I'm quite grateful, actually, since I wound up being a writer.

Don't worry about "travelling", though: both are acceptable. The double-consonants thing is a regional variation. Like "jewellery" and "jewelry". But even though I live in the UK now, I still can't bring myself to say "aluminium", "orientate", and "urinal" (the way they say it here, which is yoo-rye-nal).

[Crystal Eitle]

- Mispelling the word definitely as definately
Remember, folks, that "definite" has the same root as "finite." That should help you spell it correctly.

I think some people are genetically predisposed to be good spellers (I am one of those people). My stepdad is practically a genius, but he still has trouble with spelling. In many cases, misspellings are not an indicator of lack of intelligence.

Those who are not born spellers can learn, but it takes a lot of work and practice and mnemonic tricks (yesterday I caught my boss saying "Tom or row" as he was spelling out the word "tomorrow.")

[redifrogger]

I guess I'll chime in too. My biggest beef with bad english is using 'good' and 'well' in the wrong context. "How are you doing?" "Good", I believe 'good' is the wrong word; good is an adjective and well is an adverb. "I'm doing well, thank-you". There is one exception: if you're asking someone how they feel, then "I'm feeling well" is correct in a health-wise context (not ill), and "I'm feeling good" has more the emotional/mood context. I know this is really picky, and I make plenty of mistakes too - this is just one area I've fixated on over the years. Just ask my family. :oops:

[hamishmacdonald]

A friend of mine expressed his delight at the supermarket chain Sainsbury's use of the phrase "Ten items or fewer". And he's right: something that is "less" is of lower quality, not lower in number.

It goes on and on.

Okay, so my wishes for the day are:
1) Proper use of the apostrophe.
2) World peace.
3) That @#$!! Stowaway XT driver to be released.

Hamish MacDonald
_______________________________
www.hamishmacdonald.com

[trachy]

Those who are not born spellers can learn, but it takes a lot of work and practice and mnemonic tricks (yesterday I caught my boss saying "Tom or row" as he was spelling out the word "tomorrow.")

Good point, Crystal. Just last night I taught my daughter to spell spaghetti by breaking it up into spag and hetti.

Anyone remember how the principal is your "pal?" They taught us that in grade school so we'd know how to keep principal and principle straight.

It also bugs me how people get accept and except, and ensure and insure mixed up.

[hamishmacdonald]

P.S. Of course, I have nothing but sympathy for anyone coming into this language from outside (or "from without" as they say here) and trying to understand the endless exceptions to rules.

The classic demonstration of English weirdness is:

"How do you spell 'fish'?"

"GHOTI"

GH as in "enough"
O as in "women"
TI as in "motion"

[Crystal Eitle]

It also bugs me how people get accept and except, and ensure and insure mixed up.
Not to mention "effect" and "affect." ARRRGGGHHH!

[redifrogger]

OK, school is in session. Can you provide examples of effect/affect and fewer/less. :? :oops:

[easylife]

Not to mention "effect" and "affect." ARRRGGGHHH!

These two bother me so much that I had the audacity to correct Jason on them in his "Mobile Phones go Crash-Crash" article! 8O (audacity is probably spelled wrong... :roll: )

[trachy]

OK, school is in session. Can you provide examples of effect/affect and fewer/less. :? :oops:

I'll tackle effect/affect.

Effect is the result of a cause. For example, drinking causes the effect of inebriation, or smoking produces the effect of cancer.

Affect is simply to influence. An example would be the how @#$@^ QuesTec (http://espn.go.com/talent/danpatrick/s/2003/0528/1560141.html) affects the way umpires call balls and strikes, and thus the outcome of baseball games. But I digress. :-)

[aroma]

And he's right: something that is "less" is of lower quality, not lower in number.


I don't know about this one, at least in "American" english. Less does refer to a lower quantity or ammount. Example: Because of my increased work load, I have less time to spend with my family. Or: Four is less than five. However I do belive in the context of your example, "fewer" is more appropriate.

- Aaron

[Crystal Eitle]

OK, school is in session. Can you provide examples of effect/affect and fewer/less. :? :oops:

In most cases, "effect" is a noun and "affect" is a verb.

e.g.,

What are the effects of this medicine?
How will taking this medicine affect me?

This new law will affect the way people download music.
This new law will have an effect on people's taxes.

I may affect the way you think with my writing.
My writing has no effect on anyone's opinion.


Thanks to corporate speak and psychology, the less-well-known uses of effect and affect have made their way into the language, where in some cases "effect" is a verb and "affect" is a noun.

When "affect" is used as a noun, the stress is on the first syllable. It denotes the outward manifestation of one's emotional state (and isn't really used this way very often). E.g., "The patient had a depressed affect."

When "effect" is used as a verb, it means "to bring about." It is most commonly seen in phrases like "to effect change." E.g., "This new product will effect an exciting change in the way people do business." We have bizspeak to thank for bringing this meaning of "effect" into wide usage, thus further confusing an issue that was already confusing to a lot of people.


I hope this isn't too confusing.

[hamishmacdonald]

Yay! (Believe it or not, this is actually fun. And great credit to you for asking.)

Fewer means "less in number".
In today's imaginary poll, fewer people said they believed Arnold Schwartzenegger is a viable candidate for governor than in yesterday's poll, which clearly demonstrated that Arianna Huffington is a goddess of wisdom. [Oops. Sorry.]

Less means "diminished".
There's less to these Wagon Wheels now than when I was a kid. I swear they're getting smaller.

Affect, as it's used when mistaken for "effect" is a verb. It means "to have an impact".
The death of the clown didn't affect anyone at all.

Effect can be used a verb, but when it's mistaken for "affect", it's being used as a noun, meaning roughly "a result".
The tornado had a strange effect: it rid the town of mimes.

[Crystal Eitle]

And he's right: something that is "less" is of lower quality, not lower in number.


I don't know about this one, at least in "American" english. Less does refer to a lower quantity or ammount. Example: Because of my increased work load, I have less time to spend with my family. Or: Four is less than five. However I do belive in the context of your example, "fewer" is more appropriate.

- Aaron
Hoo boy, this is a difficult one. "Fewer" refers to things that can be counted, like items in a supermarket checkout line. "Less" refers to quantities that cannot be divided up into discrete chunks, like time or water. So your "less time to spend with my family" example is correct. (Just try saying "fewer time to spend with my family" - absurd!) Likewise, one would say "there is less water in the glass." However, one would say "the child has fewer toys than his brother" (poor kid!), or the classic "10 items or fewer."

[aroma]

Crystal, your explination is having a confusing effect of my brain which will affect my ability to work the rest of the day.

- Aaron

[hamishmacdonald]

A recent trend in business that I hate is the 'verbing' of nouns.

For instance, "Can you action this?"

"Um, no, I can't. Perhaps you're asking me to do it, but that might actually involve you taking accountability for the fact that you're making a request, which you seem hesitant to do."

But that's a whole other topic that we can leave to other commentators like Scott Adams (Dilbert (http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/index.html)) and George Orwell (http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html).

[aroma]

Hoo boy, this is a difficult one. "Fewer" refers to things that can be counted, like items in a supermarket checkout line. "Less" refers to quantities that cannot be divided up into discrete chunks, like time or water. So your "less time to spend with my family" example is correct. (Just try saying "fewer time to spend with my family" - absurd!) Likewise, one would say "there is less water in the glass." However, one would say "the child has fewer toys than his brother" (poor kid!), or the classic "10 items or fewer."


Ok. This makes sense. Thanks for the explination! :)

[Jacob]

A recent trend in business that I hate is the 'verbing' of nouns.

For instance, "Can you action this?"



You're right... the business environment has spawned a whole "newspeak"(to use Orwell's term).

All in all, I know my grammar and spelling isn't perfect, but I don't think it's very bad. Context is everything though - if you're on a forum like this you have to be somewhat forgiving of grammar.

Although from this thread I think I haven't been using "affect" and "effect" correctly in all cases.. most, but not all. :?

[Pat Logsdon]

[pet peeve]
While I've certainly noticed the gradual decline of good grammar in media and advertising, what REALLY bothers me is the introduction and appropriation of non-words. I think the worst is "snuck". THERE IS NO SUCH WORD! The correct word is "sneaked".

I've seen this in books, magazines, you name it, people just get it wrong.
[/pet peeve]

[hamishmacdonald]

There was a great article about using language authentically in business situations in a 1999 issue of Fast Company:
http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/21/flores.html

The language is a bit strong in places, but the article contains excellent ideas.

Fun conversation. Thanks everyone.

[Crystal Eitle]

I think the worst is "snuck". THERE IS NO SUCH WORD! The correct word is "sneaked".

from dictionary.com (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=snuck)

Usage Note: Snuck is an Americanism first introduced in the 19th century as a nonstandard regional variant of sneaked. Widespread use of snuck has become more common with every generation. It is now used by educated speakers in all regions. Formal written English is more conservative than other varieties, of course, and here snuck still meets with much resistance. Many writers and editors have a lingering unease about the form, particularly if they recall its nonstandard origins. And 67 percent of the Usage Panel disapproved of snuck in our 1988 survey. Nevertheless, an examination of recent sources shows that snuck is sneaking up on sneaked. Snuck was almost 20 percent more common in newspaper articles published in 1995 than it was in 1985. Snuck also appears in the work of many respected columnists and authors: “He ran up huge hotel bills and then snuck out without paying” (George Stade). “He had snuck away from camp with a cabinmate” (Anne Tyler). “I ducked down behind the paperbacks and snuck out” (Garrison Keillor).

Since "snuck" has been in use since the 19th century, I think it's okay. (And I'm a stickler for grammar!) If it's good enough for Garrison Keillor, it's good enough for me.

Also, I enjoy the way English speakers have a tendency to make up new words based on logical assumptions about how words are formed. It's part of what keeps the English language so lively!

[trachy]

While I've certainly noticed the gradual decline of good grammar in media and advertising

Man, you sure did make it hard for me to quote you with those "pet peeve" markers in there. ;-)

I really loathe how the media is forcing poor grammar upon us. I just about blew a gasket a couple of years ago when ABC (American Broadcasting Corp) started using the slogan "Where It's At." I'll never understand why our lazy culture insists on adding useless words to the end of sentences. We have the attention span of a gnat, yet ironically add extra words where they're not needed.

"Where's he at?"
"Where did he go to?"

AAAAAAAahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

[Crystal Eitle]

While I've certainly noticed the gradual decline of good grammar in media and advertising

Man, you sure did make it hard for me to quote you with those "pet peeve" markers in there. ;-)

I really loathe how the media is forcing poor grammar upon us. I just about blew a gasket a couple of years ago when ABC (American Broadcasting Corp) started using the slogan "Where It's At." I'll never understand why our lazy culture insists on adding useless words to the end of sentences. We have the attention span of a gnat, yet ironically add extra words where they're not needed.

"Where's he at?"
"Where did he go to?"

AAAAAAAahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Heh heh. It's a common Upper-Midwestern trait to add unnecessary prepositions at the end of sentences. The most common example of this is "come with." "I'm going to the store, do you want to come with?" This drives my stepdad nuts (he's not from around here). One theory is that it is a direct descendant of the Swedish formation "komme met." (sp?)

Which reminds me of a joke:

A young midwesterner goes to Yale on a scholarship. Wandering around on the first day of the school, he asks an upperclassman, "Excuse me, where's the library at?"

The upperclassman replies, "at Yale, we do not end a sentence with a preposition."

"Fine, then. Where's the library at, a**hole?" :lol:

(Sorry about the mild profanity. The joke doesn't work otherwise.)

[Pat Logsdon]

Since "snuck" has been in use since the 19th century, I think it's okay. (And I'm a stickler for grammar!) If it's good enough for Garrison Keillor, it's good enough for me.
Bah! <- I think this is the first time that I've used the word "Bah". Next I'll be using "curses"! :mrgreen:

Call me an etymological Luddite, but just because someone made a mistake 200 years ago doesn't mean that it should continue to be used! :wink: By that standard, "it's" will be acceptable as a possessive sometime in the next 50 years.

Also, I enjoy the way English speakers have a tendency to make up new words based on logical assumptions about how words are formed. It's part of what keeps the English language so lively!
I agree. NEW words are just fine with me, as long as they're not corruptions of existing words. Like hootenanny (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=hootenanny). Fine word. :D

[Janak Parekh]

I think some people are genetically predisposed to be good spellers (I am one of those people).
Indeed. I've always been an "almost perfect" speller; that is, I spell very well except in spelling contests, where I always invariably get something wrong.

Anyway, regarding PPCT: if you ever see an error on the frontpage, don't hesitate to contact one of the editors. I edit any of the errors I see, and I do see errors more than I'd like, but you must realize that, even with copy editing, some errors will sneak through.

--janak

[trachy]

Heh heh. It's a common Upper-Midwestern trait to add unnecessary prepositions at the end of sentences.

I've lived in just about every corner of the US, and I have to say the only place I don't see this habit is in the northeast (New England). I think the only reason I notice it so much is because I'm from that area of the country, and had never heard such usage until after I left the nest. Southerners, in particular, seem to embrace the dangling participle the most.

[Janak Parekh]

Call me an etymological Luddite, but just because someone made a mistake 200 years ago doesn't mean that it should continue to be used! :wink: By that standard, "it's" will be acceptable as a possessive sometime in the next 50 years.
Fortunately or unfortunately, though, that's the way that languages work -- they're living things. Try reading 12th century English to see what I mean. It's not something that can easily be stopped. Besides, would you want it to stop?

As for arguing that "it's" will be introduced into the language like "snuck", I wouldn't worry about it. "It's" being used possessively is a technical error using punctuation. "snuck" is indeed a relatively new word, with no punctuation being used. "It's" is not a word, in comparison -- it's a contraction.

--janak

[Jacob]

Something my step mother always does just never sounded right at all to me is to remove the "to be" in sentences.

Like:

"That floor needs cleaned"

"That lamp needs fixed"

At first I thought she was just talking quickly and said the "to be" quickly, but no, it was omitted.

Otherwise her grammer is perfect.


I also have never been able to grasp the colons of grammar - the colon and the semi-colon. Never have learned exactly when to use those. :? I never used either of them in any essay in college for that reason.. too afraid to use it improperly.

[Janak Parekh]

I've lived in just about every corner of the US, and I have to say the only place I don't see this habit is in the northeast (New England).
Heh. I'm a Northeastener too, but since I work in a very urban area with thousands of dialects, you get used to most every tendency. The only tendency that freaks me out in the rest of the country is the insane politeness I encounter. As a New Yorker, I'm just not equipped to handle it, thinking all along, "OK, what exactly do they want from me? They're being too nice."

--janak

[Crystal Eitle]

Something my step mother always does just never sounded right at all to me is to remove the "to be" in sentences.

Like:

"That floor needs cleaned"

"That lamp needs fixed"

At first I thought she was just talking quickly and said the "to be" quickly, but no, it was omitted.

Otherwise her grammer is perfect.
Where is she from?

[trachy]

Heh. I'm a Northeastener too, but since I work in a very urban area with thousands of dialects, you get used to most every tendency. The only tendency that freaks me out in the rest of the country is the insane politeness I encounter. As a New Yorker, I'm just not equipped to handle it, thinking all along, "OK, what exactly do they want from me? They're being too nice."

You know what I get all the time? People assume I'm from the Northeast simply because I have an agressive personality. I'm a bit (yeah, right) sarcastic, and I don't usually hesitate to say what's on my mind. For some reason, people just associate this type of personality with our region of the country.

Now back on topic before Steve comes down on us. :lol:

[dh]

There's less to these Wagon Wheels now than when I was a kid. I swear they're getting smaller.
Do they still make Wagon Wheels? I still remember some of the TV ads from my childhood days.
It always seemed to me that they got smaller each time the packaging was changed. The biggest ones were when the package was only sealed on three sides so the Wagon Wheel could slide out.

[Jacob]

Something my step mother always does just never sounded right at all to me is to remove the "to be" in sentences.

Like:

"That floor needs cleaned"

"That lamp needs fixed"

At first I thought she was just talking quickly and said the "to be" quickly, but no, it was omitted.

Otherwise her grammer is perfect.
Where is she from?

I believe she grew up in Missouri (sorry if I spelled the state wrong ). The problem is it's also rubbing off on my father so now he's doing it too! UGh.. parents.

[Kati Compton]

Anyway, regarding PPCT: if you ever see an error on the frontpage, don't hesitate to contact one of the editors. I edit any of the errors I see, and I do see errors more than I'd like, but you must realize that, even with copy editing, some errors will sneak through.
I believe that's "will have snuck"... :razzing: :lol:

[disconnected]

Janak, I think that whole politeness thing is just a matter of style. I'm from New England, with a lot of New York friends, and when I moved to the South, and then the Midwest, I'd always hear people complaining about rude Northeasterners.

When talking to New Yorkers, conversation consists of constant interruptions; if you aren't interrupting, it pretty much means you aren't taking part in the conversation, and people assume you aren't even listening. In the rest of the country, when you interrupt, conversation comes to a halt and everyone just stares at you. :oops:

In New England, short answers are the rule, in the South, to be polite, you have to embellish your answer somehow.

In a store, asking for something not in stock -- "Do you have this in blue?"
New England answer -- "No", or possibly "No, sorry."
Louisiana answer, very slowly, with a big friendly smile -- "Why, we surely don't", usually followed by several more upbeat sounding sentences so that it takes a minute to process it all and translate it to "No".

[Janak Parekh]

Janak, I think that whole politeness thing is just a matter of style. I'm from New England, with a lot of New York friends, and when I moved to the South, and then the Midwest, I'd always hear people complaining about rude Northeasterners.
Without question, although it's magnified a lot more in NYC and other urban areas in New England. I've been to small towns in New York and people are quite friendly as well there, too.

Louisiana answer, very slowly, with a big friendly smile -- "Why, we surely don't", usually followed by several more upbeat sounding sentences so that it takes a minute to process it all and translate it to "No".
:pukeface: No offense intended, of course. As a New Yorker, I'd start getting antsy by the the she'd get around to the word "we". :lol:

--janak

[Pat Logsdon]

This thread suddenly reminded me of Douglas Adam's description of the major problem with time travel:

One of the major problems encountered in time travel is not that of accidentally becoming your own father or mother. There is no problem involved in becoming your own father or mother that a broadminded and well-adjusted family can't cope with.

The major problem is quite simply one of grammar, and the main work to consult in this matter is Dr Dan Streetmentioner's Time Traveller's Handbook of 1001 Tense Formations. It will tell you for instance how to describe something that was about to happen to you in the past before you avoided it by time-jumping forward two days in order to avoid it.

Most readers get as far as the Future Semi-Conditionally Modified Subinverted Plagal Past Subjunctive Intentional before giving up: and in fact in later editions of the book all the pages beyond this point have been left blank to save on printing costs.

:mrgreen:

From the Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0345453743/qid=1060360716/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/103-9649476-4288605) series.

[hamishmacdonald]

"The lamp needs fixed" is a construction I hear here in the UK, too. So it might be an "Old Country" carry-over.

As for Wagon Wheels, I was hoping someone would pick up on that. I remember taking them to school in my lunchbox in the '70s. I know they're smaller now, and it's not just that I'm bigger.

[easylife]

I've lived in just about every corner of the US, and I have to say the only place I don't see this habit is in the northeast (New England).

Yep, I live in New England too and I haven't heard things like "You coming with?" here either. 8)

[Kati Compton]

Yep, I live in New England too and I haven't heard things like "You coming with?" here either. 8)
I'm a Midwesterner, and I say that all the time... Maybe 60% that, 40% without the "with".

[hamishmacdonald]

Okay, one last thing:

The plural of "forum" is "fora"!

[easylife]

The plural of "forum" is "forums"!

[Hyperluminal]

I've lived in just about every corner of the US, and I have to say the only place I don't see this habit is in the northeast (New England).

Yep, I live in New England too and I haven't heard things like "You coming with?" here either. 8)
Neither have I. :D

By the way, is there a reginal difference as to whether people pronounce neither as "neether" or "n'either"?

[Kati Compton]

By the way, is there a reginal difference as to whether people pronounce neither as "neether" or "n'either"?

Wait, do you mean neether vs. neyether? Like eether vs. eyether? I use both pronunciations.... Though when the phrase is "me neither", it's always pronounced neether. By me, anyway.

Then there's the whole roof/ruff (roof) debate... root, rowte (route), etc.

[Pat Logsdon]

By the way, is there a reginal difference as to whether people pronounce neither as "neether" or "n'either"?

Wait, do you mean neether vs. neyether? Like eether vs. eyether? I use both pronunciations.... Though when the phrase is "me neither", it's always pronounced neether. By me, anyway.

I say it the same way (both pronunciations like Kati), and I've been in California my whole life.

Then there's the whole roof/ruff (roof) debate... root, rowte (route), etc.

And "invelope/onvelope" (envelope). Another thing that bugs me is "warsh" instead of "wash". I have no idea how that "r" got in there, but several of my older relatives say it that way.

[Kati Compton]

And "invelope/onvelope" (envelope).
I say 'n'velope...

Another thing that bugs me is "warsh" instead of "wash". I have no idea how that "r" got in there, but several of my older relatives say it that way.
It seems to be a more "rural" (another fun word to pronounce) type of pronunciation. My grandparents say it, though, and they grew up around Chicago... So I don't know.

I've told my husband to shoot me if I ever pick that one up.

What about milk/melk (milk)? Q-pon, coopon (coupon)? Pronouncing the first 'r' in "February"?

[CTSLICK]

Heh heh. It's a common Upper-Midwestern trait to add unnecessary prepositions at the end of sentences. The most common example of this is "come with." "I'm going to the store, do you want to come with?" This drives my stepdad nuts (he's not from around here). One theory is that it is a direct descendant of the Swedish formation "komme met." (sp?)

Hah! This one took me totally off guard when I moved to the great state of Minnesota 8 years ago. Still cracks me up.

Now, the other terminology that really threw me off...saying "I borrowed him a tool". WHAT!?!? I always have said "I loaned him a tool". Is this an Upper-Midwest thing too or have others heard this too?

[Kati Compton]

Heh heh. It's a common Upper-Midwestern trait to add unnecessary prepositions at the end of sentences. The most common example of this is "come with." "I'm going to the store, do you want to come with?" This drives my stepdad nuts (he's not from around here). One theory is that it is a direct descendant of the Swedish formation "komme met." (sp?)

Hah! This one took me totally off guard when I moved to the great state of Minnesota 8 years ago. Still cracks me up.

Now, the other terminology that really threw me off...saying "I borrowed him a tool". WHAT!?!? I always have said "I loaned him a tool". Is this an Upper-Midwest thing too or have others heard this too?

As for the "come with", I think we're just lazy and dropping the "me" or "us" ;) But the "borrow me a"... that gets on my nerves. A lot of people around here say that, but there are PLENTY that don't. Most of us, if we ever used that terminology, had it beaten out of us in school. Can't say I ever said that.

[Pat Logsdon]

I've told my husband to shoot me if I ever pick that one up.

My wife has similar instructions. :wink:

What about milk/melk (milk)? Q-pon, coopon (coupon)? Pronouncing the first 'r' in "February"?

Milk, q-pon, silent 'r'. I've heard people say the last two differently, but I've never heard anyone say "melk". Interesting.

And about the "warsh" thing - now that I think about it, my great-grandparents on both sides came from Tennessee, so that might explain it.

[Hyperluminal]

I say neether/eether, and I've lived in NY my whole life. I also say envelope, as opposed to onvelope.

As for route.. I generally say root, except for computers, where I find it impossible to say "rooter" for router, or "root the data" (route the data)... :D

[stitics]

I really don't like ending sentences with prepositions, but the couple that REALLY bother me are saying the word "mine" as "mines", and the "than" or "then" dilemma.

Oh, yeah, and just about anything that can truly be counted as Ebonics.

[Janak Parekh]

Aieee! You guys are driving me insane. Now I'm in a mental crisis about pronunciation. I'm sitting here at my computer, saying "either/eether" over and over. It's one of those things that's supposed to be unconscious, darn it! ;)

--janak

[Kati Compton]

Aieee! You guys are driving me insane. Now I'm in a mental crisis about pronunciation. I'm sitting here at my computer, saying "either/eether" over and over. It's one of those things that's supposed to be unconscious, darn it! ;)
Muahahahahaha!!! Yet one more small success on my path to drive you completely over the edge!

[Hyperluminal]

Aieee! You guys are driving me insane. Now I'm in a mental crisis about pronunciation. I'm sitting here at my computer, saying "either/eether" over and over. It's one of those things that's supposed to be unconscious, darn it! ;)
So on that topic, do you swing your arms when you walk? :lol:

[Pat Logsdon]

So on that topic, do you swing your arms when you walk? :lol:
Yes, but not if I'm chewing gum at the same time. :mrgreen:

[Christian]

My personal pet peeves are the use of "this" without an antecedent and plural terms such as "data" and "agenda" used when the singular is implied. The latter seems to be getting worse every day.

[Janak Parekh]

So on that topic, do you swing your arms when you walk? :lol:
I may be losing it, but you can't psyche me out that easily. Yes, I swing my left arm while walking. My right hand is usually resting on the strap of my shoulder bag.

You and Kati will have to try harder. ;)

--janak

[Hyperluminal]

Christian-- I never even realized agenda was plural. Wow.. learn something new every day... ;)
BTW, I'm assuming it's singular for agendum?

Janak-- OK, about how many seconds do you go between blinks? :D

[Christian]

BTW, I'm assuming it's singular for agendum?


Exactly. :wink:

[Jacob]

I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone use "datum" in a sentence in real life.

[Janak Parekh]

I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone use "datum" in a sentence in real life.
It does get used in Computer Science. But that's about the only place it does. Now, I've never heard anyone use agendum. "Agenda item" is the common terminology, and I suspect that'll be incorporated into the dictionary eventually.

--janak

[Kati Compton]

I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone use "datum" in a sentence in real life.
It does get used in Computer Science. But that's about the only place it does. Now, I've never heard anyone use agendum. "Agenda item" is the common terminology, and I suspect that'll be incorporated into the dictionary eventually.
Likewise, I really only hear "data point" to describe a single item of data...

[Janak Parekh]

Likewise, I really only hear "data point" to describe a single item of data...
Indeed, data point is far more common than datum. But read a classic CS textbook or something, or an ancient research paper. ;) "Datum" will also probably disappear before long.

--janak

[Christian]

I honestly can say that I have never heard anyone use "datum" in a sentence in real life.
It does get used in Computer Science. But that's about the only place it does. Now, I've never heard anyone use agendum. "Agenda item" is the common terminology, and I suspect that'll be incorporated into the dictionary eventually.

You're right, and I'm probably just strange :lol: I think its because a good friend of mine studied ancient Greek and Latin for several years. But I will continue to use agendum, if only to be different 8) However, other people are still corrected for datum/data at the university.

[Prevost]

To err is human. To not err is to accept Borg's Assimilation.
:lol:

Well, English is not my second language (I do not need to use it here but to post in forums) nor my mother language. However I think it is a good think to have someone correcting my English despite "I am not in this forums for that". Thanks for it!!!

By the way, now I want to learn some Italian so as to enjoy some more a trip I am planning :mrgreen: ...

[maximus]

Duh. Instead of english, I should have learned french ...
At least the french folks think that a grammatical error is sexy. :lol:

[trachy]

Aieee! You guys are driving me insane. Now I'm in a mental crisis about pronunciation. I'm sitting here at my computer, saying "either/eether" over and over. It's one of those things that's supposed to be unconscious, darn it! ;)

How's this, Janak? I think the neether/niither rule is that you basically pronounce it according to the other words in the sentence - sort of like the word "A." For instance, "me neether" and "niither do I." I do think you're right in that it is an unconscious thing we do.

[Janak Parekh]

How's this, Janak? I think the neether/niither rule is that you basically pronounce it according to the other words in the sentence - sort of like the word "A." For instance, "me neether" and "niither do I." I do think you're right in that it is an unconscious thing we do.
Yeah, that's what I think I do. But I refuse to explore it further, at least for now. People in my office will start looking at me strangely. :lol:

--janak

[Phunkphantom]

I am a little late in seeing this post and it has moved on a little from its original subject, however my personal opinion is that I would rather someone post with a typing error than didnt post at all.

FWIW........ :?

[trachy]

I am a little late in seeing this post and it has moved on a little from its original subject, however my personal opinion is that I would rather someone post with a typing error than didnt post at all.

I don't think the original quarrel was with regular postings, but rather with reviews and/or articles that are presented in a somewhat official manner.

[Phunkphantom]

Your right! I should have read the post properly! :oops:

But I think Id also rather a review with typing errors than none, especially as I believe Jason now has a new team of reviewers, who are volunteers and not professionals.

[Kati Compton]

But I think Id also rather a review with typing errors than none, especially as I believe Jason now has a new team of reviewers, who are volunteers and not professionals.
True. But I read real news items with typos & such semi-frequently. The it's/its issue is a problem even in "professional" writing.

My own personal pet peeve is when instead of "silicon valley" I see references to "silicone valley". 8O

[hollis_f]

Your right! I should have read the post properly! :oops:
You're right.

[JonnoB]

My own personal pet peeve is when instead of "silicon valley" I see references to "silicone valley". 8O

"Silicone Valley," previously known as Beverly Hills.

[Jason Dunn]

What a fascinating collection of "Type A" personalities we have in this thread! :lol: I am, unfortunately, an unconscious abuser of the "it's" rule more often than not. I think I am, after years of writing professionally, starting to get the hang of it. My wife, who is the grammatical maven in our household, has taught me the rules of using "it's" several times. Hamish seems to feel this is a matter of laziness, or ignorance, but that's not always the case - I simply find the rule confusing and I often get it wrong. English is a very confusing language at times, and an ounce of grace being extended to those who struggle with it might be a good thing. :wink:

(I am glad to see that Hamish and the others like him in this thread don't try to apply their strict rules to the posts in the threads - grammar cops have a way of getting under my skin... :? )

[Dave Beauvais]

Today's Strong Bad E-mail (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail89.html) has a very funny commentary on this. At the end, after the paper comes down, click the "muscle arm" for audio samples from Strong Bad's new CD. Click the CD cover to hear the first track and click again after each clip plays for the next track. ;)

[stitics]

Today's Strong Bad E-mail (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail89.html) has a very funny commentary on this.

Entirely OFF TOPIC: How often do new SB Emails get posted. Is there any type of regular schedule?

[Dave Beauvais]

How often do new SB Emails get posted. Is there any type of regular schedule?
Approximately every Monday. This one (http://www.homestarrunner.com/sbemail79.html) is a funny description of the process behind Strong Bad's e-mails. Be sure to wait 10-15 seconds after the paper comes down.

[sublime]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so forgive me if this has already been said. I'm bored and want to type...

I can package my thoughts in these little squiggles, and you can unravel them on your end and know that I was thinking.

Did you study any linguistics/semiotics? I know next to nothing about them, but plan on learning a bit of each soon. From what I've heard buzzing around campus, they're not as dreamy-eyed as you are with this quote.

Language is very deceptive. Example: a hungry, horny man walks behind a hot girl who just came out of the butcher, and "watches her moving hams." Is he looking at her food or her ass? Take a look at Victorian literature and you'll see how ineffective their greatest writers are at conveying what they mean to say. In the first chapter of Wuthering Heights:

"Half a dozen four-footed fiends, of various sizes and ages, issued from hidden dens to the common centre. I felt my heels and coat-laps peculiar subjects of assault; [...] I was constrained to demand, aloud, assistance from some of the household in re-establishing peace."

What he meant to say was that the dogs were biting him and he screamed for help. (For a better example of the failure of language, read the "Oxen of the Sun" chapter in James Joyce's "Ulysses")

As a result, it annoys me when people quibble over language, such as the it's/its rule. I have never read a misuse of it's/its and failed to unravel their package of thought.

So let peeple speL wurdz however they want. So long as we understand their message, who gives a ****?

*** Edited by moderator KC 19-Nov-03 for language

[ctmagnus]

Reviving a dead thread (it came up in a search for stoptime :confused totally: ) and going back a few pages, I've always considered a single piece of data to still be data; a datum, on the other hand, refers to something that marks a single point in three-dimensional space. Which, incidentally, could still be referred to as data but I've been tought that this specific situation should be datum.

And then there's the : confused totally : emoticon, which should be : totally confused : . :mrgreen:

[sublime]

Just for the record, I did not use bad language, but a jumble of letters that looks similar to a bad word.

***edited by moderator KC 5-Jan-04

[Kati Compton]

sublime:

Yes. Cute. Please do not push it. Just because it's barely misspelled or has a minor typo doesn't make it less of a "bad word". If you want to discuss this further, send me a PM.

[trachy]

Not to pick on Sublime, but thanks, Kati. It's nice to see you guys patrolling posts to keep things around here respectable. I frequent other sites like Fark, and it's always refreshing to pop back in here where words are.......shall we say.........more carefully chosen. :-)

[ctmagnus]

What I personally would like to see is an plugin to phpBB and/or other forums systems that automatically replaces certain (bad) words with other words. For example, if the moderator really did not like cauliflower, the plugin would have the ability to automatically replace every instance of the word 'cauliflower' in a given post with 'rutabaga". In the case mentioned, the language used might be replaced with 'fluffy pink rhinocerii-shaped clouds'. You get the idea. ;)

Edit: :nonono:

[Janak Parekh]

What I personally would like to see is an plugin to phpBB and/or other forums systems that automatically replaces certain (bad) words with other words.
phpBB already has "Word Censors", and we've got the common ones covered.

--janak