How Things Change In Just A Few Years

[Ed Hansberry]

In 2001, low end Pocket PC devices cost as much or more than high end Palm devices. Sure, the Pocket PCs could do more, a <b><i>lot</i></b> more, but if you wanted a basic PDA for $200-$400, you had a basically two choices for your platform. PalmOS or PalmOS. :lol: <br /><br />Well, today that is not the case at all. In fact, not only have Pocket PCs come down to the Palm price point, they have gone below it in some cases. Look at the announcement today on the <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1041_3-5052103.html">Tungsten T2</a>. For $399, you get a 320X320 screen, a whopping 32MB of RAM, a 144MHz TI OMAP processor, integrated bluetooth, a voice recorder and an SDIO slot.<br /><br />For the same money, you can get an HP iPAQ 2215. The screen has a lower resolution at 240X320, but it has 64MB of RAM, a 3-4MB ROM file store, networking, full screen handwriting recognition, a removable battery, multitasking, full file system and a Compact Flash II slot. Now, I know what you are thinking - the iPAQ must be huge compared to the Tungsten. Palm has had the svelte devices for years. Well, not anymore. The iPAQ is 4.54 x 3.00 x 0.61 in. and weighs in at 5.1oz. The Tungsten T comes in at 4.00 (closed) x 3.00 x 0.60 in. and weighs in at 5.6oz. When you open the TT it grows to 4.80 inches high, larger than the 2215! I am assuming the T2 shares the physical dimensions of the TT.<br /><br />And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the HP iPAQ 1900 series the smallest color data-centric handheld in production today? It is even smaller in some dimensions than gray-scale devices. My how times have changed.

[Duncan]

Ah - but the Tungsten has that really, really useful slidey up and downy thing going on - surely worth sacrificing 32MB of memory, a CF slot and some weight for (hours of endless amusement - saves $hundreds worth of game purchases)?

Anyway Ed - shame on you! As you full well realise the POS is so efficient it needs very little memory to do anything - 32MB on a POS is of course equivalent to about 1.5GB on a wasteful, inefficient Pocket PC - and on a Tungsten you can play MP3s encoded at just 24k and they will sound better than MP3 encoded at 128k on a Pocket PC - so that saves so much space that 64MB of RAM would simply have no point. Good on Palm for protecting their users from having too much memory!

Don't forget as well - a 144Mhz processor on a hyper-efficient Palm actually enables you to complete a task an astonishing 3 seconds BEFORE you start it - compare with the Pocket PC where you can go an make a cup of tea whilst waiting for a program to open!

[Timothy Rapson]

The size and price similarities of the TT and 2215 clearly astounding. The 2215 is clearly small enough to show that HP had good reason to plan on dropping the 1900 (plans they dropped when they saw what a hit the 1900 was) when the 2215 was ready.

The 1900 may be the smallest available. Sharp makes one that might be a tad smaller. At the time it was released the Sharp (Japan only) linux mini was the smallest color PDA ever.

The prices favor the PPC in many instances. I just ordered a Zayo PPC 2002 model for only $200. Now, this is a special deal, but if you look at the ViewSonic, Dells, and HP 1900s you see a lot of value compared to any Palm OS model.

The Palms are still ahead by a mile on screen resolution and built-in camera models. Because they don't multi-task, they run video and open/scale images quite a bit faster. I don't think it matters much, though. I believe most 400-533 :mrgreen: (can't wait for those Samsungs!) with Mobile 2003 will be able to do video at 30 fps and above that the human eye can't tell the difference anyway. I got a report that a guy was comparing the opening of JPEGs up to 4 meg on a Tungsten comparing it to a 2215 and the T/C opened and scaled them as fast as you could click and move the sizing slider, while the 2215 needed a second or two. I can wait a second or two. It is the 20 second wait to open 100 thumbnails or 1 Meg JPEGs on my 66MZ Clie NR70V that has made me start looking for faster.

The whole file/client mess on Palm OS is a major pain I won't miss if the Zayo works out for what I want. It is maddening!

Software is now a huge advantage for the PPC OS. I expect to get Battery Pack or SPB Plus to replace a dozen hacks needed on the Palm OS. Then TextMaker, Pocket Artist, Laridian Bible, Resco Picture Viewer, Resco File Explorer, SketchArtist, FITALY, Pocket Earth, and Pocket Atlas. All of these are as powerful as desktop programs and have absolutely nothing that can touch them on the Palm platform. I would love to see them on a model with the features of the Sony UX, but I am not paying $600 for that model when I can get a Zayo, Axim, ViewSonic, or 1900 for $250 or less.

There is still some big success possible in the Palm OS. The Zire 71, Sonys, and (in the Linux area the Sharps) all put most PPC OEMS to shame in innovation. But, in value the PPCs are finaly in real competitive position.

Q. Is there an install/uninstall program that tracks everything I install that I should get before I even start on the PPC? I can't find one. Is it needed? Or do all PPC programs come with auto uninstallers?

[TopDog]

I am currently testing the Palm Tungsten W for my site... and I must say that it amazes me how well the mobile-part works with the PDA-part! This device rocks for people wanting two in one without paying a fortune.

Sure I miss my PocketPC (lying at home this week while I borrow the Tungsten W) with all the functionality of Agenda Fusion, multitasking, all my belowed games, PPCT mobile forum, the Today-screen, etc... but it does the elementary very good. Stable like bleeding hell and good batterytime. And it's great just having ONE device to carry around.

And I LOVE the thumboard!!!

Now where are all those PPCPE-devices that we where supposed to see???

[jage]

The Palms are still ahead by a mile on screen resolution and built-in camera models. Because they don't multi-task, they run video and open/scale images quite a bit faster. I don't think it matters much, though.

Sigh... 206MHz PocketPC can do 30 fps full screen just fine, with good quality, thank you. I think with complete code optimization mpeg4 video at 320x240 250kbps WITHOUT SOUND is possible to decode at nearly 50fps. It's just as lazy ass coders to blame it doesn't happen... and there's need for someone who'd like to PAY for that, too. :)

Anyways, Pocket MVP can do it (I have a special case 3870-optimized version that plays 320-pixels wide video somewhat faster than the normal version. There are some problems, but maybe I submit my code some day...)

[Mark Johnson]

I too have been with PPC for quite some time now and I have to admit I've enjoyed mocking the puny capabilites of the Palm for the last couple of generations.

However, the thing that is nowstarting to concern me is that no one is really making Microsoft work very hard to innovate. The T2 is clearly not very impressive, nothing in it's form factor that would make me think about giving up my iPaq 1910. (I'm of the opinion that the 1910 is the only "Pocket PC" worthy of the name since it's the only one I've been able to keep in a pocket on my Levi's comfortably.)

I am pleased that Palm increased the screen pixels, but not by much (we really should all have half-VGA by now at least, full VGA even.)

I would add though, that if Palm were to make the T2 support the Bluetooth HID keyboard spec I would switch to Palm today. Microsoft has slacked on this and there's no good reason that Microsoft's PPC2003 doesn't support Microsoft's Bluetooth keyboard.

We PPC enthusiasts shouldn't be crowing too loudly about how lame the Palm products are. If Palm can't put some pressure on, we can expect PPC2004 will be just another "maintenance release" of 2002. The fact that 2003 now supports Bluetooth (uh, but not our own keyboard...) and has a few other refinements is fairly sad progress for the period since I got my HP568 with 2002 (like 18 months ago?) The reality is that since I got that 568, next to nothing has happened at Microsoft - sure the device got smaller and became my 1910, but that was HP's improvement on the hardware, not progress from MS on the OS. Sure, the new iPaqs are faster, but that's because Intel and Samsung are giving us faster ARMs, again not progress from MS on the OS.

Honestly folks, would you really say PPC2003 is more like a "generational upgrade" like Windows 2000 to Windows XP or more of a "service release" like how Windows 95 didn't support USB or FAT32 originally, but Windows 95 Rev. B did?

Face it guys, we need Palm. We need them competitive again. We need them innovative again. Although it hurts to say it...

[theone3]

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the HP iPAQ 1900 series the smallest color data-centric handheld in production today? It is even smaller in some dimensions than gray-scale devices. My how times have changed.Not for long.. The treo 600, you know you want it..

[cive1em]

I am a Sony TG50 owner.

The followings are some of my observations and opinions.

1. People browse this forum are usually experienced PocketPC users. They know PocketPC OS well but may not know Palm OS5 very well.

2. People browse this forum are always looking for the best device for the money they can afford to spend. I would think some of you may not care about which OS is better. For me, I would not spend more than $300 for a PDA. If I am looking for a new PDA now, I would get an iPaq 2215 ($293 education price) over Tungsten T2 ($399).

3. 16MB RAM on a Palm OS5 device can be utilized to be as useful as 64MB RAM on a PocketPC. (However, most Palm OS5 devices only have 11MB free RAM :( ) Palm's smaller RAM size is not that a big problem anymore.

4. The screens on Mid-range Palm OS5 devices are smaller than screens on PocketPC devices. However, texts, images and photos on a 320x320 Palm OS5 screen look better than on a 320x240 PocketPC screen. There are pros and cons on screens of both devices. There is no reason to spend time to argue which screen format is better.

5. Most people will buy a case to protect their PDA. iPaq 1900 plus an InnoPocket metal case is about 6.7 oz and 0.83" thick. iPaq 2215 plus an metal case may weigh over 7.6 oz and 1" thick.

I guess what I want to say is OS and memory size, screen size is not the most important factors in my purchasing decison. Price, overall size, and overall weight are major factors in my purchasing decision. (overall size and weight = PDA + a case)

I sold my Maestro a few months ago because of its overall size and poor battery life. I bought a Sony TG50 last month because:

1. Price: I got a good deal. $250 after rebate plus a free leather case.

2. Overall size and weight: (5" x 2.82" x 0.5") TG50 has a built in flip cover. I don't need to add a metal case to protect it. I can carry it on my pocket without a case.

3. Others: TG50 has bluetooth and build-in keyboard. I don't use bluetooth. But I do like its build-in keyboard. I found that I can use my Cross Digital writer (a regular Cross pen with a PDA stylus) to use the keyboard. Again, those features are not that important in my decision.

If HP would provide a flip cover for iPaq 2215 without adding overall size and weight on it, I may change my purchasing decision. For now, I think TG50 is still a better buy for me.

[KayMan2k]

I am pleased that Palm increased the screen pixels, but not by much (we really should all have half-VGA by now at least, full VGA even.)

Sony Clie's are half-VGA and the new Sharp Zauruses (Zauri?) are full VGA.

Honestly folks, would you really say PPC2003 is more like a "generational upgrade" like Windows 2000 to Windows XP

Its more like an upgrade from Windows ME to Windows 2000 - the GUI remained mostly the same but the entire kernel and underlying system changed - like PPC2003.

206MHz PocketPC can do 30 fps full screen just fine, with good quality

Really? What device running what program? PocketMVP can *barely* play back full screen video and can't play back full screen mpeg1. Windows Media player is even worse. While the Clie's can play 320x480 Quicktime movies at over 30fps with sound and they run 133mhz (granted. i think it has a media co-processor). But still, if you claim they run 30fps video just fine what are you using to do it? I can't get a 320x240 200kbs divx 5.0.5 video with 96kb mpeg audio running well on my 5555. - It does have the potentail - but as you said, no coders.

HP had good reason to plan on dropping the 1900
I hope not. It is sexier and slimmer (and cheaper) than the 2215 for those who do not need all those extra features. Its the low end model that doesn't look at all low-end.

32MB on a POS is of course equivalent to about 1.5GB on a wasteful, inefficient Pocket PC
For programs perhaps - if you are talking about memory - but that also includes storage. A 5mb video file takes 5mb no matter if you store it on a palm or pocket pc. PocketPC is a multitasking environment so of course it uses more memory. But compare the 6 or so mb that winCE uses to 100mb of WinXP.

Amazing how WindowsXP is a monster on disk space while WinCE is soo small. Of coruse there is a feature gap but why does Microsoft still need to include tons of crap in the WinXP files left over from WinNT 3.1!!!? Its a waste of space. Microsoft is not about inovating, just making something good enough to beat the competition.

[jage]

Really? What device running what program? PocketMVP can *barely* play back full screen video and can't play back full screen mpeg1. Windows Media player is even worse. While the Clie's can play 320x480 Quicktime movies at over 30fps with sound and they run 133mhz (granted. i think it has a media co-processor). But still, if you claim they run 30fps video just fine what are you using to do it? I can't get a 320x240 200kbs divx 5.0.5 video with 96kb mpeg audio running well on my 5555. - It does have the potentail - but as you said, no coders.

There are no coders, because there is no money to be made. Too little money to start a commercial project and optimizing Pocket MVP doesn't pay the bills.

And to add - specialized media co-processors help a lot. Quicktime movies? That doesn't say much, quicktime is just a container. Which CODEC? How many kbps for total video stream?

[TawnerX]

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the HP iPAQ 1900 series the smallest color data-centric handheld in production today? It is even smaller in some dimensions than gray-scale devices. My how times have changed.Not for long.. The treo 600, you know you want it..

It's 160x160...and costing upward of $600, gawd.. come on.
Smartphone will snuff it in a week when it finally launched in US.

And I am willing to bet shiny dime PPC PE 2k3 will be ahead of treo 600 by a mile. (If the darned thing will ever be released by November that is)

[Duncan]

32MB on a POS is of course equivalent to about 1.5GB on a wasteful, inefficient Pocket PC
For programs perhaps - if you are talking about memory - but that also includes storage. A 5mb video file takes 5mb no matter if you store it on a palm or pocket pc. PocketPC is a multitasking environment so of course it uses more memory. But compare the 6 or so mb that winCE uses to 100mb of WinXP.

Amazing how WindowsXP is a monster on disk space while WinCE is soo small. Of coruse there is a feature gap but why does Microsoft still need to include tons of crap in the WinXP files left over from WinNT 3.1!!!? Its a waste of space. Microsoft is not about inovating, just making something good enough to beat the competition.

Please tell me you realise I wasn't being serious...!

[TawnerX]

I am a Sony TG50 owner.

3. 16MB RAM on a Palm OS5 device can be utilized to be as useful as 64MB RAM on a PocketPC. (However, most Palm OS5 devices only have 11MB free RAM :( ) Palm's smaller RAM size is not that a big problem anymore.

ehrr, no it's not. List all your application in your TG50, plus the memory uptake. and I'll show you an outdated memory size.


4. The screens on Mid-range Palm OS5 devices are smaller than screens on PocketPC devices. However, texts, images and photos on a 320x320 Palm OS5 screen look better than on a 320x240 PocketPC screen. There are pros and cons on screens of both devices. There is no reason to spend time to argue which screen format is better.

I'll argue anyway, yes it has more pixel, but no, it can't show more information most of the time! (information being usable data instead of filler or UI control)


5. Most people will buy a case to protect their PDA. iPaq 1900 plus an InnoPocket metal case is about 6.7 oz and 0.83" thick. iPaq 2215 plus an metal case may weigh over 7.6 oz and 1" thick.

h1945 + case is still far more compaq than TG50 + cover. And I can always put the question the otherway around, is there a case option for TG 50 beside the hardcover? Are there any nice Vaja leather case for TG50? (yeah that flip cover is your only option. It's a stylistic impediment, not an advantage in case you haven't notice)


I guess what I want to say is OS and memory size, screen size is not the most important factors in my purchasing decison. Price, overall size, and overall weight are major factors in my purchasing decision. (overall size and weight = PDA + a case)

you have to say it's not the most important, because POS doesn't can't pull it. And again TG are FAR inferior compared to h1945 in term of price and size.

all you can say is thumboard, and you better practice chanting it over and over again, since that is the only TG50 advantage. The damned thing even use Memory stick... shss.. you tell me it's a superior product. (does it even have a proper wordprocessor to run on? oooppss, .... )

[TawnerX]

To all palmie heads, before rambling about price and size please refer to this table first.

T|T = 7.20/8.64 (4.0/4.8"x 3.0"x 0.6") 5.6 oz. $399
Zire 71 = 8.74 (4.5" x 2.9" x 0.67") 5.3 oz $299
TG50 = 8.40 (5.00" x 2.80" x 0.60") 6.5oz. ~$300
Tungsten|C = 9.67 (4.8" x 3.1" x 0.65") 6.5 oz. $499
NX70 = 14.89 (5.5" x 2.88" x 0.94") 8.0 oz $499

iPaq h1910 = 6.71 (4.46"x 2.75"x 0.50") 4.23 oz. $299
iPaq 2200 = 8.3 (4.54" x 3.00" x 0.61") 5.1oz. $399
ViewSonic V35 = 5.76 (4.8"x3.0"x0.4") 4.2 oz. $275
Toshiba e310 = 6.08 (4.9"x3.1"x0.4") 5.1 oz. $349
Mio 558 = 8.23 (4.9"x 2.8"x 0.6") 6.0 oz. ($599?)

Dell Axim = 11.2 (5.0" x 3.2" x 0.7") 6.9 oz. $250, $350
iPAQ 5550 = 11.58 (5.4" x 3.3" x 0.6") 7.3 oz. $650

[droppedd]

Because they don't multi-task, they run video and open/scale images quite a bit faster.
I've heard other people suggest that.... can anyone provide quantitative benchmarks that show this? Perhaps take an identically encoded divX file on Palm and PocketPC and see what framerates you get on both devices (What's that? Palms can't play DivX? Oh!). I think the comparatively high frame rates on Palm are when you encode to some cruddy uncompressed low quality format. Anyways, you can get 24+ FPS on a PPC even with DivX encoding. But i really would like to see benchmarks under identical test conditions to settle that issue.
The opening of jpegs isn't all that quantitative of a comparison simply because that's very reliant on software, not hardware; there are faster jpeg decoders for both Palm and PPC than the ones that come preinstalled. It takes less than two seconds to open a 2 megapixel 370KB photo off an SD card in full screen rotated on my 2215; even less when it's in RAM. And a VGA resolution (640x480) photo has a really negligible load time, even off the SD card.

30 fps and above that the human eye can't tell the difference anyway.
A common misconception. Truth is, above about 24 FPS, it looks "smooth," but you can still distinguish the levels of smoothness until somewhere over 60 FPS. There was some program from some video card manufacturer that i had once - it showed side-by-side the same exact 3d scene being played back at 30 and 60 FPS, and the difference was visible. But that's besides the point outside of gaming; 24 FPS is plenty for movies and more than that makes for huge files with relatively little benefit.

Q. Is there an install/uninstall program that tracks everything I install that I should get before I even start on the PPC? I can't find one. Is it needed? Or do all PPC programs come with auto uninstallers?

Under settings, the system tab has a remove programs tool, just like your desktop.

[TawnerX]

The only media player with fps counter is mmplayer, and it's nowhere near 30 fps at qvga. It can pull high 20's approaching 30 at 160 by 160 with frame skip.

[Icekilled]

32MB on a POS is of course equivalent to about 1.5GB on a wasteful, inefficient Pocket PC
For programs perhaps - if you are talking about memory - but that also includes storage. A 5mb video file takes 5mb no matter if you store it on a palm or pocket pc. PocketPC is a multitasking environment so of course it uses more memory. But compare the 6 or so mb that winCE uses to 100mb of WinXP.

Amazing how WindowsXP is a monster on disk space while WinCE is soo small. Of coruse there is a feature gap but why does Microsoft still need to include tons of crap in the WinXP files left over from WinNT 3.1!!!? Its a waste of space. Microsoft is not about inovating, just making something good enough to beat the competition.

R O L F

The first one was hilarious... this guy made me tear!

[droppedd]

32MB on a POS is of course equivalent to about 1.5GB on a wasteful, inefficient Pocket PC
For programs perhaps - if you are talking about memory - but that also includes storage. A 5mb video file takes 5mb no matter if you store it on a palm or pocket pc. PocketPC is a multitasking environment so of course it uses more memory. But compare the 6 or so mb that winCE uses to 100mb of WinXP.

Amazing how WindowsXP is a monster on disk space while WinCE is soo small. Of coruse there is a feature gap but why does Microsoft still need to include tons of crap in the WinXP files left over from WinNT 3.1!!!? Its a waste of space. Microsoft is not about inovating, just making something good enough to beat the competition.

R O L F

The first one was hilarious... this guy made me tear!

Sometimes I think we need a better smiley to indicate sarcasm. Other times I think it's just funnier to watch people who don't get it unless it has a big label on it saying "I'M BEING SARCASTIC!!!"

[KayMan2k]

I'm never posting again before I have my morning coffee. :bangin: LOL, yeah I see the sarcasim now... oh well. Moving on...

And to add - specialized media co-processors help a lot. Quicktime movies? That doesn't say much, quicktime is just a container. Which CODEC? How many kbps for total video stream?

I am not sure of the codec (maybe Sorenson?). It was running at 250kbps or so with quite amazign quality... my friend demo'ed it for me last summer and he downloaded it.

Yeah, my friend was sure that it was running on the CPU only but I suspect the Clie's have a hardware MP3 player which was tapped into accelerate video - but cannot verfiy this. Does the QMedia video chip on the iPaqs have any API worth exploring to accelerate video? The ATI chip is amazing but no one has really used it (even PocketMVP only scratches the surface of its capabilities).

[Crimguy]

Did we really need another article to brew up a palm v ppc flame war?

I am now using a 3970 and while I like it, I still recommend to others to get a palm. It's a much more bulletproof OS than ppc. I haven't tried ppc2003 outside of fry's, but that could change my opinion a bit. Activesync is one of my biggest gripes anyway.

To each their own. I don't feel particularly threatened by palm. Same goes for palm users: don't be too threatened by ppc. There seems to be room for both platforms.

[Kevin Remhof]

Whew, I'm glad to see the T2 is only $399. I was at Best Buy yesterday and the tag on the shelf had the T2 for $699!

I kept looking at it to see what was so special about it. I couldn't figure out what in a Palm would be worth $699.

[theone3]

Because they don't multi-task, they run video and open/scale images quite a bit faster.
I've heard other people suggest that.... can anyone provide quantitative benchmarks that show this? Perhaps take an identically encoded divX file on Palm and PocketPC and see what framerates you get on both devices (What's that? Palms can't play DivX? Oh!). I think the comparatively high frame rates on Palm are when you encode to some cruddy uncompressed low quality format. Anyways, you can get 24+ FPS on a PPC even with DivX encoding. But i really would like to see benchmarks under identical test conditions to settle that issue.
The opening of jpegs isn't all that quantitative of a comparison simply because that's very reliant on software, not hardware; there are faster jpeg decoders for both Palm and PPC than the ones that come preinstalled. It takes less than two seconds to open a 2 megapixel 370KB photo off an SD card in full screen rotated on my 2215; even less when it's in RAM. And a VGA resolution (640x480) photo has a really negligible load time, even off the SD card.

30 fps and above that the human eye can't tell the difference anyway.
A common misconception. Truth is, above about 24 FPS, it looks "smooth," but you can still distinguish the levels of smoothness until somewhere over 60 FPS. There was some program from some video card manufacturer that i had once - it showed side-by-side the same exact 3d scene being played back at 30 and 60 FPS, and the difference was visible. But that's besides the point outside of gaming; 24 FPS is plenty for movies and more than that makes for huge files with relatively little benefit.

Q. Is there an install/uninstall program that tracks everything I install that I should get before I even start on the PPC? I can't find one. Is it needed? Or do all PPC programs come with auto uninstallers?

Under settings, the system tab has a remove programs tool, just like your desktop.
Wrongo.. on an LCD screen, the ghosting effect will mean that 30FPS is practically indistinguishable from 60FPS.. And the eye works at about 100FPS.. Not that many monitors can display that, and even if they could, it would hardly make much difference.

Switch your monitor to 60Hz, then to 85Hz, and you will see what I mean.

Anyway. Movies run fine at 24FPS, TV at 25FPS, most cartoons at a terrible 12FPS (excluding computer generated ones). P.O.V (persistance of vision) is effective at upto about 7FPS.

[droppedd]

Yeah, my friend was sure that it was running on the CPU only but I suspect the Clie's have a hardware MP3 player which was tapped into accelerate video - but cannot verfiy this. Does the QMedia video chip on the iPaqs have any API worth exploring to accelerate video? The ATI chip is amazing but no one has really used it (even PocketMVP only scratches the surface of its capabilities).

Yes, i'm reasonably certain the Clies have a media coprocessor. I know the older clies could only play mp3s for that same reason, and also as a result they got longer battery life playing mp3s with the unit off - the mp3 coprocessor was much more optimized for specific things. But also a factor in costs, and it is limited - if the file is in a format the media coprocessor is not programmed to deal with, it's useless.

The reason many media players are not really optimized that much for the graphics coprocessors on PPC is due to the fact that the manufacturers aren't terribly responsive to the developers of the player software about getting them APIs and such, as I understand it. Alas.


Also, the guy who was complaining about the framerates in pocketMVP for mpegs is really looking in the wrong place. MVP's mpeg codec is really not that good (at one alpha release point, they did incorporate a good one, but i think they had to remove it and use a lesser one for some reason). But PocketTV's mpeg codec is great. And Windows Media Player, at least on PPC2003, is quite smooth for video; I watched a whole episode of Invader Zim using software rotation to fullscreen landscape from a file not optimized for PPC at all, and it was smooth as a baby's behind.

Maybe if you're using a 300mhz XScale with PPC2002, your results will be kind of sad using unoptimized video... but on my ipaq 2210, it's a beautiful thing. Even high-bitrate (50 MB for 5 minutes) mpegs play back in PocketTV software rotated to fullscreen (albeit with sound hiccups every 10 seconds or so - but still, altogether impressive).

[boldbidder]

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the HP iPAQ 1900 series the smallest color data-centric handheld in production today? It is even smaller in some dimensions than gray-scale devices. My how times have changed.Not for long.. The treo 600, you know you want it..

It's 160x160...and costing upward of $600, gawd.. come on.
Smartphone will snuff it in a week when it finally launched in US.

And I am willing to bet shiny dime PPC PE 2k3 will be ahead of treo 600 by a mile. (If the darned thing will ever be released by November that is)

Have you ever used either PCPE or Treo line? I am a former owner of the Treo 180/270 and current owner of the T-Mobile Phone Edition so let me offer my 2 cents.

I really like my Phone Edition for the capabilities that it has that my Treo did not. However, after playing with some of the newer OS 5 palm devices I definitely see myself switching back once the Treoo 600 becomes available. Mostly because the Treo pda/phone integration BLOWS away the pda/phone integration of the PPC and also I type about 40-50 wpm with a thumbboard, handwriting recog and virtual keyboards aren't for me.

I've owned several different WinCE based devices as well as Palm devices over the years and I must say that I SORELY miss the stability of Palm devices. When I'm at work and I take a call I remove my PPC from the cradle, I have to soft reset each time before I can get Active Synce to recognize my device again. Stuff like that gets old QUICKLY.

Do any others have thoughts who have been on BOTH sides of the fence?

Sorry for the long winded post......:)

[TawnerX]

I really like my Phone Edition for the capabilities that it has that my Treo did not. However, after playing with some of the newer OS 5 palm devices I definitely see myself switching back once the Treoo 600 becomes available. Mostly because the Treo pda/phone integration BLOWS away the pda/phone integration of the PPC and also I type about 40-50 wpm with a thumbboard, handwriting recog and virtual keyboards aren't for me.


don't let me stop you buying an overpriced phone organizer like treo600. We'll talk when it's finally release and compare it to PPC PE 2k3.

and please, please don't say treo doesn't crash. OS 5.0 particularly.

[droppedd]

Wrongo.. on an LCD screen, the ghosting effect will mean that 30FPS is practically indistinguishable from 60FPS.. And the eye works at about 100FPS.. Not that many monitors can display that, and even if they could, it would hardly make much difference.

Switch your monitor to 60Hz, then to 85Hz, and you will see what I mean.

Anyway. Movies run fine at 24FPS, TV at 25FPS, most cartoons at a terrible 12FPS (excluding computer generated ones). P.O.V (persistance of vision) is effective at upto about 7FPS.

true - i was just being nitpicky about it. and the CRTs thing is just unrelated, and there is a CLEAR difference between 60hz and 85hz on a CRT, but that is due to the refresh rate flicker, not really a frame rate issue. But your "not many monitors can display that" is wrong and millions of hardcore gamers would yell at you about that. Like I said, when you put them side-by-side on a normal CRT, you can see the diff between 30 and 60 fps - it's "smooth" and "smoother."

True about LCD ghosting though, unfortunately. Some of the newer sub-10ms-refresh LCDs do fix that, though. And I personally would never dream of encoding a movie at higher than 24 fps; it's just not needed. the only real application for 60 FPS is gaming; but not just the hardcore kind - in order to run SNES emulation without dropping frames, you need (at least in theory) 60 FPS. My 2210 can do 30, which is fine and looks great, no doubt about it; but it messes with the sound, and things like that that are synced to the framerate. bah.

but really, i was just nitpicking - there is a distinguishable difference between 30 and 60, and like you said, the eye can technically discern up to 100 fps. Displaying anything over 30 would just be a waste of battery life on a PocketPC, though.

[BTS]

I am currently testing the Palm Tungsten W for my site... and I must say that it amazes me how well the mobile-part works with the PDA-part! This device rocks for people wanting two in one without paying a fortune.

Sure I miss my PocketPC (lying at home this week while I borrow the Tungsten W) with all the functionality of Agenda Fusion, multitasking, all my belowed games, PPCT mobile forum, the Today-screen, etc... but it does the elementary very good. Stable like bleeding hell and good batterytime. And it's great just having ONE device to carry around.

And I LOVE the thumboard!!!

Now where are all those PPCPE-devices that we where supposed to see???

The thumboard is all fine and good if you have regular sized hands. I just couldn't seem to get it to work well with my big paws! :roll:

On the topic of a stable machine for networking I'm using a Toshiba 750 (no problems yet with Toshiba - it's a fine unit). PPC2003 is:

1. So much faster. It's just as fast as my Palm OS handheld was (How fast can a calendar or program open for Pete's sake?? Program open is almost instantaneous).

2. Connecting to networks is a dream. The autodiscovery is very cool.

3. The OS has been very good and no soft resets have been necessary...and I have been to many different website.

It's been a great machine. Essentially it was the file system that caused me to buy a PPC over the Palm. It just is more intuitive to me rather thank worrying about VFS and that stuff. The price? A bit more expensive that the TC but not much.

[boldbidder]

don't let me stop you buying an overpriced phone organizer like treo600. We'll talk when it's finally release and compare it to PPC PE 2k3.

and please, please don't say treo doesn't crash. OS 5.0 particularly.

My Treo crashed on me a handful of times in a lil over 14 months. I'm sure that varies from user to user, but it's a FAAAR cry from my 8-12 soft resets a day for my PPC PE. I use my NX70 sparingly these days, but I haven't notice a substantial increase in volatility in comparison to my Treo.

For me my device has to personify efficiency. The Treo was hands down the most efficient device I've used. Dialing a number, or entering a new to-do/contact, etc... pales in comparison to any other device I've tried. I only strayed because my screen broke and I decided to try a PPC PE for the multimedia capabilities. Maybe the PPC PE2 will be a big improvement over the 1st iteration, if it is they might keep me as a customer, but they will need marked improvements over the current effort to do so.

[Ed Hansberry]

My Treo crashed on me a handful of times in a lil over 14 months. I'm sure that varies from user to user, but it's a FAAAR cry from my 8-12 soft resets a day for my PPC PE. I use my NX70 sparingly these days, but I haven't notice a substantial increase in volatility in comparison to my Treo.
That is most likely the problem of garbage software T-Mobile put on the PPC-PE. Disabling most/all of the custom T-Mobile software fixes that problem. No excuse, but it is not the 2002 OS causing the instabilities.

http://www.pocketpcmagic.com/removetapps/ has directions for doing this.

[Gerard]

Timothy Rapson; Yeah, there's the Add/Remove applet for getting programs uninstalled. But it usually, almost always leaves a few things behind in the file system and registry. 'Remover' by S_K (http://www.geocities.com/s_k_s_k_s_kru/) (his Russian page (http://s-k.al.ru/wincepdaru.html) is a lot more reliably available) takes care of that. It has operations to get rid of any 'un-connected' files and abandoned registry items and databases. Works a charm, no matter when you 'install' it. I put that last in quotes because it's a standalone executable, like all of S_K's brilliant freewares. CabInstl is another of his which I use all the time, allowing very controlled installations from CAB files.

On the general subject of 'us versus them' being battled over yet again here... oh get over it. I think it's now the time where both OS' offer some pretty impressive things, and it comes down to more a matter of taste. I happen to find the Palm interface revolting, but that's just me. I know people who find the PPC both ugly and difficult, and they are perfectly content with their Palms. Of course, they have problems just as I do, if in different areas. One of my clients is almost never here without at least one faulty reminder going off in his pocket. That's with one of the uglier Palms of recent vintage (I've never wanted to look closely enough to see which model).

I guess a little computer in his pocket isn't all that important. For those I've met who need just basic PIM stuff and prefer their PC or Mac for 'real' computing, the Palm seems a satisfying solution. For someone like me, who loathes the PC in general and has never even tried a Mac (well, I tried a couple of times in a store, but couldn't figure out how to do anything at all), the PPC is more satisfying, I think. I can do most of the tasks I need to do on a computer, on this 3835. I've a fine little HP camera for it, a dual CF MemPlug sleeve which is very slim with a screen cover integrated. I've a microphone-in jack (which also works okay as a line-in from a stereo or radio) thanks to PPCTechs, and with realtime MP3 capture up to 128kbps with NoteM I need no more audio equipment. I've a Socket CF modem, an Accurite 6GB HDD, lots of CF cards and an SD card... what else could anyone need for computing? Well, video capture from a VCR would be nice.... That's my PC's job. Otherwise, most of the time it sits and gathers dust.

Oops, guess I've wandered into Palm-bashing. Or have I? Actually, I think I'm just saying that a PPC is closer to a desktop replacement, and that a Palm isn't really trying to be one, so it's apples and oranges, both food but doing different things for the user. One might as easily try to compare a fancy cellphone with a good landline-based phone. Different jobs, with some overlap.

[mv]

Oops, guess I've wandered into Palm-bashing. Or have I? Actually, I think I'm just saying that a PPC is closer to a desktop replacement, and that a Palm isn't really trying to be one, so it's apples and oranges, both food but doing different things for the user. One might as easily try to compare a fancy cellphone with a good landline-based phone. Different jobs, with some overlap.

Well, at the end, both can do the same things anyway. I don´t think they are so different. Just different aproachs to satisfy the same needs. But PPC has better apps IMO.

[Gerard]

Maybe. But where's a Pocket Artist, or even a Photogenics equivalent for Palm-based devices? Where's Pocket Mixer for stereo WAV remixing and editing and effects? I don't see any realtime MP3 recorder with bitrate options being available for Palm, like NoteM, or have I missed it? What about a decent FTP client like FtpView or SuperExplorer? Can a Palm deal with ZIP files like Resco Explorer can?

This may seem like flame-bait, but it's not at all intended as such. I ask the above, as I have a bunch of times in various threads, because I'd really like to know if there are tools like these and a host of others I use all the time, available for Palm users. If there are not, then the device simply has a different market, a different set of tools it offers the user.

[iomatic]

I switched to Pocket PC _because_ of Gerard's recommendation of Pocket Artist, and have not regretted it--I love all the apps available, and so forth. But, it's still not as simple to use as the Palm--memory management issues and the confusing state of closed vs. quit apps come to mind--a very bad implementation. As well, I'll never switch to a PC, except to test websites and CD-ROM material, because _for my needs_ a Mac works best.

I think the authors for this site are extremely Pocket PC-biased, and seemed intentionally set this flame war--a bad editorial stance from a journalistic point of view. The Palm has its strengths, and shouldn't be entirely discounted, as some have done here.

I say--as some don't do here--is experience other platforms first, BEFORE making a judgement--this sort of behavior usually crops up with Extreme-rightist Conservatives and junior high school kids. Now THAT is a topic for a flame war.

US$.02

[aroma]

I think the authors for this site are extremely Pocket PC-biased


I'll save Jason the keystrokes on this one. You THINK they authors of this site are Pocket PC biased. Ok... look up at the top of your screen, and read outloud. P O C K E T P C T H O U G H T S Yep... I'd say they're going to be biased. I don't think I would go to palmlovers.com and expect them not to be biased towards Palm devices. That being said, I think you'll find that most of the contributors to this site have more balanced opinion of Palm devices than what you might think.

- Aaron

[Kati Compton]

I'll just supplement aroma here by saying that when there are things wrong with the PPC platform or PPC devices, no one here is exactly unwilling or slow to point it out.

[droppedd]

I say--as some don't do here--is experience other platforms first, BEFORE making a judgement.

I owned several Palm OS devices recently; as a matter of fact I only recently got a Pocket PC. And I still use a Treo every day at work (not by choice... the screen is horrendous next to my 2210, it's unbearable). I think, when you look around the boards, many of the people talking about Palm OS vs. PPC have actually used both; many are Tungsten users as well.

And as far as Macs go... I think many of us here would buy an updated Newton if they released one :D

Look, i loved my Palm, and I actually wish my PPC was as stable and its builtin PIM software as simple to use. But its features outweigh that annoyance for me.

[Ed Hansberry]

Aroma nailed it. Plus, we aren't journalists. I don't even pretend to be.

[Prevost]

I too have been with PPC for quite some time now and I have to admit I've enjoyed mocking the puny capabilites of the Palm for the last couple of generations.[...]We PPC enthusiasts shouldn't be crowing too loudly about how lame the Palm products are. If Palm can't put some pressure on, we can expect PPC2004 will be just another "maintenance release" of 2002. The fact that 2003 now supports Bluetooth (uh, but not our own keyboard...) and has a few other refinements is fairly sad progress for the period since I got my HP568 with 2002 (like 18 months ago?) The reality is that since I got that 568, next to nothing has happened at Microsoft - sure the device got smaller and became my 1910, but that was HP's improvement on the hardware, not progress from MS on the OS. Sure, the new iPaqs are faster, but that's because Intel and Samsung are giving us faster ARMs, again not progress from MS on the OS.

Honestly folks, would you really say PPC2003 is more like a "generational upgrade" like Windows 2000 to Windows XP or more of a "service release" like how Windows 95 didn't support USB or FAT32 originally, but Windows 95 Rev. B did?

Face it guys, we need Palm. We need them competitive again. We need them innovative again. Although it hurts to say it... :beer:
Just couldn't express it better. Our only difference is that I see things from Palm camp.

[mv]

And if I'm not mistaken, isn't the HP iPAQ 1900 series the smallest color data-centric handheld in production today? It is even smaller in some dimensions than gray-scale devices. My how times have changed.Not for long.. The treo 600, you know you want it..


Yes I DO!!! 0X 0X

[drac]

I'm a palm user with a strong interest in PPC devices.


I'm only an occasional reader here because I find the PPC bias here to be both extreme and illogical. The bias is arguably no worse than that to be found on some PalmOS oriented sites, but "They do it too" isn't really justification; neither is "Well, I don't care about standards, beacause I'm not a professional journalist, so there!"

Such attitudes irritate me here, as well as on certain PalmOS forums- and also on certain photography forums.


All the bashing is unnecessary. PPC is a strong enough, powerful enough platform not to need that sort of nonsense. Iomatic is almost entirely correct.



That said, so is Gerard; for many high-end or niche applications, PPC is not so much only superior to PalmOS as alone in an empty room. The user wanting a mainstream PDA that offers decent image editing has no real choice of OS- PPC is the *only* alternative. In some other arenas, such as gaming, PalmOS may compete, but will be unsatisfactory to many.

That does not imply, though, that PalmOS devices are "organisers". To refer to them as such is to let one's own aesthetic preferences or particular biases lead one into lies and deceptions. The derision of an SUV driver does not transform a Mini Cooper into a tricycle. Nor do the facts and figures at the disposal of said driver change the fact that the Mini is a valid choice for many, and a superior choice for some.



But don't mind me, I'm only an occasional poster.

[disconnected]

A Mini Cooper is much cuter than either an SUV or a Palm. :)

[drac]

You and I might agree. But I've heard some disparage it as a toy car not worth the attention of any adult... :roll:

[maximus]

I am currently testing the Palm Tungsten W for my site... and I must say that it amazes me how well the mobile-part works with the PDA-part! This device rocks for people wanting two in one without paying a fortune.

You are not thinking about switching, are you ? :D