The Real Cost of Toshiba Not Issuing a Windows Mobile 2003 Upgrade

[Jason Dunn]

The discussion in <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=140174">this thread</a> is continuing, but after posting a lengthy response there, I felt it might be appropriate for the front page of this site. The upgrade scenario has long been a thorn in my site - with every generation of Windows CE-based devices, starting way back in the HPC days, there have always been OEMs who value their customers and issue upgrades, and those that do not. My friend David made this point in the above discussion thread, and I had a few things to say about it:<br /><br /><i>"Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders."</i><br /><br />"Ah, but David, you're ignoring that fact that sometimes a company will chose to lose money on a move if the ancillary effect is beneficial in the long run. Let's say for example that Toshiba were to lose $1 million dollars on releasing this upgrade - let's say that their projections showed that not enough people would buy the upgrade, and the $1 million was the difference between their development & distribution costs and the profit they make when "x" users did buy the upgrade. <br /><br />Now let's look at the costs of not providing this upgrade:<br /><br />• Negative press in the mainstream media, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products.<br /><br />• Negative press from enthusiast sites like this one, hurting both Toshiba Pocket PC sales and other Toshiba products. I will personally never buy another Toshiba Pocket PC for a long time to come, nor will I recommend them to anyone else. I even tried to avoid buying a Toshiba laptop for my church lately, but ultimately I couldn't find anything else at that feature/price point. I'm looking at getting a high-end laptop for myself, and will not buy a Toshiba laptop out of principle.<br /><br />• Negative impact from individual users. I've read many comments in these forums from people who work in the IT field, and have purchasing power in their enterprises, who have said that they will not purchase ANY Toshiba products any more, and are looking at alternative suppliers. <br /><br />I firmly believe that the Toshiba brand and sales will take more punishment from this move than the money it would have taken them to release the upgrade. <br /><br />It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market. From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."

[Chris Spera]

...It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market..."

I disagree. I think Toshiba DOES understand this market; but is making a conscious choice not to offer the upgrade for some or most the reasons you mention.

...From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."

I've done this many times and have found it to be a serious money loser. I never gain back all of the $$ I spend on devices in the resale. I got only $165 for my e310 with 128MB of RAM. That's pathetic! However, as all of my freelancing is set up as a business for tax purposes, I show a loss at the end of the year. I do get somewhat of a tax break as a result, but it doesn't make up the difference.

Also, I again disagree with the last sentence in the second quote. I think Toshiba does understand that the markets are different. I think they know exactly how the US market uses and discards hardware. I think they have chosen to ignore this particular demand.

As a result, I also will not buy any product from Toshiba for quite a long time...

Kind Regards,


Christopher Spera

[kagayaki1]

Brilliant summary. It's true about the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality for the average consumer who walks into an electronics store to buy a PDA, not entirely sure they even need one in the first place. Hey, do Canadians feel the same way?

[Warwick]

This is true, I have a 3870 and am looking forward to the upgrade release date, it wont make HP much money but it will guarentee that I will buy another HP device when I buy a new device in the end, although it wont be the 19 series :O

Toshiba has lost millions in future sales from this bad marketing choice, if it was me I would give away the upgrade and write the whole cost off as advertising and my rep would be awsome.

Cheers.

[Chris Spera]

...if it was me I would give away the upgrade and write the whole cost off as advertising and my rep would be awsome.

I disagree. This is a step; but its not the only step. Anything Toshiba does to correct this situation should also include a WRITTEN apology to all of their users (registered and unregistered).

Both of these would be a start; but they've got farther to go than that to undo all of the bad press and bad feelings they've caused in the US Market...

Just my opinion.

Kind Regards,


Christopher Spera

[Saxmoore]

Jason,
I have to agree with you that Toshiba is making a mistake. It does seem somewhat shortsighted to me, as well.

Likewise, I am a bit peeved about HP's lack of response on an upgrade for the iPaq 1910 which I purchased a short 5 months ago. Why does this not seem to be getting the legs that the Toshiba issue has? There was mention of an online petition, but I've not heard much since it's initial announcement.

When I saw the specs for the the new 1900 series HP iPaq's I thought they were very cool, and began scheming as to how I could talk my wife into letting me upgrade. But the fact that HP won't even work on upgrades for a very recent PDA caused me to stop...or maybe it was the ton of bricks hitting me on the head. Why would I want to buy an iPaq 1940 when HP won't even continue to support via upgrades an iPaq that isn't even a year old? Not to mention new models in the 1900 series with questionable screen quality.

And with that, I have decided not to give HP anymore of my money.

I do realize that there is no immediate return for a company, as has already been proffered. It is hard hard to justify the expense when you can't use metrics to prove the Return On Investment. Perhaps a consideration for the future might be a nominal fee for these upgrades, as though they were a "Plus!" pack?

[whiskers]

It's short-sighted of Toshiba, and smacks of a lack of understanding of the North American market. From what I understand, in Japan it's very common to own a device for under a year, then sell it and get something new. The turnover rate is much higher over there, so I have a feeling Toshiba doesn't grasp the North American trait of using something until it stops working."[/quote]

This is the same Toshiba that sold the united states top secrets to the Russians about our Submarine Propeller systems, which we had them producing for us many years ago. They don't care if they have taken on the US and survived , about the fallout from the pocketpc.

[kiwi]

Last year I got a E310 and then soon a e740. I traded "down" to a HP568 which actually turned out to fit my requirements.

I learn the upgrade problem from owning a Casio a few years ago. I forgot which model it was, maybe the 105 series, but when the 115 came out the upgrade path was limited. I missed the opportunity to upgrade.. I think they offered a "trade-in scheme" not a real software upgrade.

In anycase, thats why I stayed away from the "unknown" brands such as NEC, Casio and Sharp. They dont have a big PPC following so I figured I hedge my bets and stick with the mainstream. Now Toshiba joins their ranks. I am glad I dont have Toshiba products.

I'm no HP lover either - I'm having an interesting time with my HP laptop and support but thats another story... :)

B

[Varrus]

Sorry for the long post, but here goes (by the way, I'm from Vancouver, B.C., Canada):

In my frustration with this Toshiba Pocket PC issue, I was browsing a flyer from the place I originally purchased my Toshiba e330 (and my e310, which my wife now owns), and noticed that they were selling the e350 now for $50 *less* than what I spent just over 3 months ago on my e330 at the same store.

I went back to my retailer, a fairly large electronics retailer up here in Western Canada, and politely asked to exchange my e330 for an e350. At first I was told "it's not possible". I was polite, listened to their reasons, but would not go away. Eventually the two salesmen on staff referred me to the store's assistant manager in charge of electronics, who would be in the next day.

The next day, I visited the manager, and discussed my issue with him. He acknowledged that it was a very unfortunate situation, but there was nothing he could do. Interestingly, he informed me that he himself purchased a Toshiba e740 Pocket PC exactly five days before Windows Mobile 2003 was released, and due to the fact that he is an employee, his is not in a position to return it. So he completely understood my predicament, but there was nothing that he could do.

Again I was persistent, asking (politely, but repeatedly) to whom could I write a formal complaint letter? I explained that I understood it was not the retailer's fault that Toshiba had decided not to continue supporting my unit, but that the retailer does assume a level of responsibility to their customers when selling them products. I was told that there is a Purchase Protection policy at this retailer, however it extended only 30 days. I explained that although I could understand if the product I purchase dropped in price over a 3 month period, I could not understand a newer model being released in that period for less than what I spent.

Eventually, he told me that he would inquire with his boss about trying to get me a rebate. I had looked up what the e330 was selling for at other branches of this retailer (those that still had them in stock) and it was $100 less than what I purchased it for. I expected him to come back with an offer of $50 or maybe $100 to try to satisfy me. When he came back (more than 20 minutes later), he offered me $150. During the time I was waiting, I considered my options, and realized that a rebate would not satisfy me. However, this offer was much larger than I expected, and indicated to me that the retailer was admitting at least in a small way that they understood the situation was unfair.

I politely declined the rebate offer, and explained that I would only be satisfied with an exchange. The manager explained to me that he had argued my case to his boss, and this was the best that they were prepared to do. So I asked to speak to his boss. When he contacted her, he explained that he had offered me the $150, and that I had declined, preferring to hold out for an exchange. He also told her that I would like to speak with her. She did not speak with me, but instead informed him to give me the exchange. I was given a lecture about how this was "extremely unusual", etc., which was not unexpected.

I briefly contemplated asking for the $50 difference back between the price of the e330 and e350, but decided that I was fortunate as it was, and I shouldn't push matters. I couldn't help but be astonished when I was asked for my debit card so that I could be credited the difference; apparently, because it was processed as an exchange, the computer system automatically refunded the difference to me!

In the course of doing the paperwork for the exchange, I began chatting with the manager. Once the issue had been decided, he warmed up considerably, and we began discussing Pocket PC software, etc. We discussed this site, too.

Anyhow, during our conversation I mentioned that although I was happy to be receiving the exchange, that in future I would not be purchasing Toshiba products as I now know how they treat their customers. He said, to my amazement, that I should consider the position he is in. He said that although he would prefer not to, he must carry Toshiba Pocket PC's in his inventory. However, he REFUSES TO SELL THEM. If a customer comes in that is intent on purchasing a Toshiba model, he will do everything in his power to persuade them to go with a different manufacturer's model!

Now, consider how many people working in consumer electronics retail shops have purchased Toshiba Pocket PC's, and how many now feel burned by the company. Toshiba's digging their own grave, with respect to Pocket PC's. It's only a matter of time.

[sponge]

I think the amount of bad press is exaggerated due to most people here's large involvement with the community sites. If you weren't in the community, you'd be hearing a lot less.

[kiwi]

I think the amount of bad press is exaggerated due to most people here's large involvement with the community sites. If you weren't in the community, you'd be hearing a lot less.


A lot of my friends ask me when they are about to make a PC, electronic or similar purchase as they know I am well and truely into these things as part of my work and hobby. Word of mouth recomendation is a string thing. I have guided people into buying laptops, cameras and PDAs..

I usually give them a heads up on the Pros and Cons of each and make them make up their own minds... but a lot of information on what I say goes to making their decission. Its like when I came to Canada and was given information on the Auto industry here.. I had no idea on what car I should get.. Nth American or Japanese.. I got a lot of advice from friends & familty and people in the industry..

B.

[maximus]

"Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders."


My sentiment exactly. It was all about trade off between service and money. Nothing else.

Toshiba execs must have made a thorough study on that subject, before making a decision. And they see that more than 95% of their users (the corporate folks) do not know about windows mobile. And perhaps another 2-3% who knows about windows mobile, but dont care about upgrading. I, for one, belong to this group. Two weeks ago, I got a delivery from DELL singapore, the free windows mobile upgrade for axim X5. And up until now I am still using PPC2002.

Rather than messing with the operating system of my axim, I'd rather use the time to upgrade my server.

[DaleReeck]

Sponge is right, mostly PDA geeks care about this. And even them, not all of them. Toshiba's real money comes in laptops and consumer products, like TV's and such. PDA's are but a tiny blip on Toshiba's radar screen. And, despite what as most people think, bad "word of mouth" is meaningless in this case. Average Joe Consumer is going to not buy a Toshiba widescreen because some PDA geeks are pissed off that they aren't getting an upgrade to the latest OS.

Believe me, Toshina knows exactly what this decision will cost them. While there is some cultural misunderstanding involved, companies like Toshiba deploy entire groups within their marketing departments that analyze decisions like this. They wouldn't have done it if they thought there would be some major backlash.

So, I smile when I see people post about how they are going "to bring Toshiba down" because of this. While it is good to let these companies know what you feel, do petitions, etc, all I'm saying is, don't expect much to happen because of it, that's all...

[Stake]

Toshiba as a PDA manufacturer is pretty poor in the US. Their complete bungle of the E550G series was blatantly mishandled. Just the complete lack of interest in supporting this device was enough to get me never to buy Toshiba again. On top of that, no PPC 2003 upgrade path when it's perfectly capable of the upgrade.

It does alienate the Toshiba brand through word of mouth especially in the IT world. With my experience with both HPs and others, HP seems to, at least appear to, have some concern for the general PDA public, consumer or otherwise. They're always coming out with fixes and updates and they're lots of accessories for their iPaqs. Ironically, I used an HP end user update to update my Toshiba. It's clear that Toshbia has a very small stake in the PDA market and wants to sell to who ever wants them with little support.

My $.02...

[sgyee]

Toshiba has a track record for basically abandoning their end users, both in the consumer and in the professional IT realm.

I look at the way they handled the floppy drive issues of the older laptops, the handling of the Satellite 5005-S50x series multimedia laptops, and the E3xx and E7xx. In each case, they really do believe that consumers are wanting to dump their unit that they just spent x amount of dollars on to get the latest and greatest.

The same attitude has permeated their sales and support engineers. My hourlong meeting with one of their system engineers at CA World this past week shows that they really don't care if your machine can't do what they say it can.

Well, this person has purchased his last Toshiba computing product. The trials that I went through in exchanging 4 E755's have been painful, and I'm never buying a Toshiba PDA again. I'd be really hard pressed to even do a review of a future one after the last one that I did on the E755.

[bslenter]

I have mixed feelings on this whole thing. On the one hand, all PocketPC's were designed to be OS-upgradeable, so I totally expected that one day I'd be upgrading my e550G to the newest OS. So, yeah, I'm disappointed that it isn't going to happen.

But on the other hand, this new OS is not all that big of a deal to me. If it had landscape support, or something else major like that, then I'd care a lot more. Instead it only has minor improvements. It certainly won't give my e550G a transflective screen :? So is it really worth all this grief? Other than this disappointment, my e550G is still a great product. It's well designed, reliable, and does everything it was advertised to do, and does it very well I might add. There's no reason I can't keep using it for years to come (except that I'll eventually give in and get something newer and cooler...regardless of whether I can upgrade this one or not).

I doubt that providing an upgrade is an easy task for Toshiba. Adapting PPC2003 to a particular PocketPC model is probably damn difficult. Remember, it's a Microsoft product, so I'm sure it's buggy and overbloated. And there are probably technical issues related to hardware that have to be ironed out. And in the case of the e550g, there can't possibly be a big enough installed base in the US to justify the effort. Consider that probably only a small fraction of e550g owners will even bother to upgrade anyway. Also remember that all of Toshiba's staff is probably working 80-hour weeks on the next big thing. Why would they bother to hire extra staff, or take away from current projects, to provide an upgrade that only a tiny fraction of their customers even care about?

Ok, I'm making a lot of assumptions here, but I think they are safe assumptions. We all know how this industry works. I wish it were different, but it's not. Us "enthusiasts" forget that we are a small minority of their customers.

[Jason Dunn]

Consider that probably only a small fraction of e550g owners will even bother to upgrade anyway.

That's a big assumption! Why do people think that only the "geeks" want to upgrade? Hell, I'd say it's the OPPOSITE: Joe Consumer who likes feeling that he has the latest and greatest will upgrade when he gets the chance, whether or not he really understands what he's getting other than the "newest thing". It's the geeks here who say things like "There's nothing really all that new" (yeah, nothing new than a completely upgraded core OS... :roll:) that are the ones who are shrugging this off as nothing important.

[Varrus]

I have to admit that I'm amazed at how apathetic the majority of the posters here are. I have to assume that many of you are either not using your Pocket PC's to their full potential, and therefore haven't noticed many of the omnipresent bugs and performance problems in the Pocket PC 2002 operating system, or are really just happy to accept mediocre products. Maybe we've all been exposed to too many years with Windows 95 and/or 98. I'm not saying that these OS's were terrible, but as users we sure put up with a lot more crap from them than we ever should have had to.

In my day job I test software, so I definitely understand what is involved in producing a software release. Coming from a testing background, I may be biased, but I expect software to just work, and I think everyone should; in fact, it amazes me that we don't! In many ways, Windows CE didn't work, and while Pocket PC 2000 and 2002 were incrementally better, they still often don't work the way a user should expect them to. As techies and geeks we are able to make them work, bending them to our will with tweaks and utilities. This is what we all did with Windows 95 and 98 as well. Some of us even became so good at it that we actually enjoyed being able to get more out of these OS's than the average user.

But, with Windows 2000, and now XP, it's hard to argue with the fact that Windows is finally approaching the level of quality it should have always had. Earlier versions of Windows would have been better off with less features, and more stability. The same can be said of Windows CE / Pocket PC / Windows Mobile.

As long as we continue to bend over for these companies, we should expect to continue "taking it".

"Thank you, sir, may I have another?" &lt;- Not for me.

[daS]

My friend David made this point in the above discussion thread, and I had a few things to say about it:

"Of course it's all about money! These companies are in business to make money for their stock holders, not to spend money on projects that won't give them a return. I know that sounds harsh, but for them to do otherwise would be a violation of their duties to their stockholders."

"Ah, but David, you're ignoring that fact that sometimes a company will chose to lose money on a move if the ancillary effect is beneficial in the long run...

Jason, I didn't ignore that fact, you ignored the place in my post where I said:

Of course, there are certainly times when it makes good business sense to spend money on something that is not directly profitable, such as community charity or for the purpose of "customer good will". This may very well be a case of that.

The real question in my mind is if Toshiba considered the cost of loss of good will. It's possible that they did, but only based it on a small number of PPC users that actually want the upgrade. Look at the problems that Dell is having with the upgrade. They are now not shipping Pocket PCs until they resolve the problem. How much is that costing them? How much good will are they losing by not shipping?

On the other hand, what Toshiba most likely did not consider is the power of the Internet and forums like. In the past, a few unhappy customers might write nasty letters to the company and tell a few friends. But now each of those customers can have the power of a magazine editor - with their voices heard by thousands of others.

In this case, I see a few possible outcomes:

1) Toshiba will listen to the outcry and change their policy.

2) Toshiba will elect to continue their policy based on the cost vs. return.

3) Toshiba will feel that the bad press is not worth the value of the sales from the product line and, like Casio, pull out of the Pocket PC market in North America.

Let's hope for the first option.

[Charles Pickrell]

I don't know, in Toshiba's case option three doesn't sound too bad.

[droppedd]

I think the amount of bad press is exaggerated due to most people here's large involvement with the community sites. If you weren't in the community, you'd be hearing a lot less.

True. But think of it this way: Most people don't own and will not buy a PocketPC anytime in the near future. That's just a fact of economics and market penetration, barring some sudden cost drop in devices. But almost everyone just here at PPCThoughts alone owns or is strongly considering buying a Pocket PC.

Now with over 10,000 registered members in the forums here, and more readers, I think it's safe to assume that will be thousands of people looking to buy new PocketPCs for themselves, coworkers, or relatives sometime in the near future. If even half of them themselves choose or convince others to choose a different handheld because of this, you're looking at about 5,000 x $400 = $200,000 in lost sales for Toshiba from this site alone. A drop in the bucket for Toshiba as a whole, I know; but factor in dozens of sites such as PPCThoughts, a few mainstream media articles/stories (like the ones posted earlier in the week), and the relatively small size of the PPC market and we're talking bad news, at least for the Pocket PC division of Toshiba. And as a "computer geek," my friends come to me when they're going to buy a new gadget, so my personal decision could affect quite a few more people.

Personally I chose a 2210 over a Toshiba - and I had been seriously looking forward to the e350; i just knocked it out of consideration after that whole mess with the upgrading.

It's not that WM2003 is that big of a deal for most users; it's simply that they're refusing to provide what is generally expected of higher-end unit manufacturers; namely, support for the lifetime of the unit. Which should be longer than 3 months in anyone's book. Imagine buying a e740 and then being told "by the way, some software coming out later this year will be incompatible with your unit, even though we advertised its upgradeability as a selling point."

But I do have to respectfully disagree with Jason; I think your "average user" isn't keeping up with the latest PPC news. Even if Joe User knows there's an update available, it's unlikely they'll deal with flashing their ROM just to add some invisible core updates to their system (and yes, i know they're considerable updates, just not highly visible ones).
I think of it this way: I cannot think of a single one of my computer-savvy friends who is using any windows OS besides XP or 2000 (although dual boots with Linux are common). However, dozens of "regular Joe" people I know are still running Windows 98 or Me on their computers; often without so much as the recent security updates and patches.

[Marc Zimmermann]

Personally I chose a 2210 over a Toshiba - and I had been seriously looking forward to the e350; i just knocked it out of consideration after that whole mess with the upgrading.
Hopefully, you will not regret that decision in the next round. HP seems to see the 2200 series as a medium-range device much like the 1900 series. Heck, they even won't provide upgrades to the once top-of-the-line 3870 series in any language but English.

Even in the brighter spots of the upgrade mess, there are dark bits.

[Pony99CA]

Now with over 10,000 registered members in the forums here, and more readers, I think it's safe to assume that will be thousands of people looking to buy new PocketPCs for themselves, coworkers, or relatives sometime in the near future. If even half of them themselves choose or convince others to choose a different handheld because of this, you're looking at about 5,000 x $400 = $200,000 in lost sales for Toshiba from this site alone.

If half the people could do that, I'd be shocked. You also have to consider that most people will likely steer people to the Pocket PC they bought -- if they like it -- and, given the current market, that would likely be HP or Dell anyway.

So I think your assessment of the impact on Toshiba is wildly optimistic.

It's not that WM2003 is that big of a deal for most users; it's simply that they're refusing to provide what is generally expected of higher-end unit manufacturers; namely, support for the lifetime of the unit. Which should be longer than 3 months in anyone's book. Imagine buying a e740 and then being told "by the way, some software coming out later this year will be incompatible with your unit, even though we advertised its upgradeability as a selling point."

First, does Toshiba actually advertise that their Pocket PCs are upgradable? I briefly checked the Toshiba Web site (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_prodList.jsp?comm=CS&plin=Toshiba%20Pocket%20PC) for mentions of upgrade capabilities and didn't find any, except for upgrades that were already available (Windows Mobile 2003 for the e750). For example, try to find a mention of the e350 being upgradable.

Second, what is "the life of the device"? I agree it should be longer than three months, but many people are still using iPAQ 3600s. I think each device should get one OS upgrade offered; anything more would be gravy. In fact, I even wrote an editorial piece about it (http://thoughts.svpocketpc.com). Check it out and let me know what you think.

Steve

[maximus]

So, I smile when I see people post about how they are going "to bring Toshiba down" because of this. While it is good to let these companies know what you feel, do petitions, etc, all I'm saying is, don't expect much to happen because of it, that's all...

Those posters should also remember that Toshiba is a japanese company. Some top-down logical-economic decision making will always be there. And when you talk about economic decision making, it is all about looking for the breakeven point. In this case, the point where service to customer, and the amount of money (that are going to be spend on creating the upgrade) met.

[maximus]

Consider that probably only a small fraction of e550g owners will even bother to upgrade anyway.

That's a big assumption! Why do people think that only the "geeks" want to upgrade? Hell, I'd say it's the OPPOSITE: Joe Consumer who likes feeling that he has the latest and greatest will upgrade when he gets the chance, whether or not he really understands what he's getting other than the "newest thing".

Most (99%) people in my company has PPC, it was issued to them for free. I did a test case sometime ago, and talk to 20+ of them about windows mobile upgrade. I asked them whether they know/hear about it. I got a lot of 'windows mobile what?' replies. And these people are the tech-savvy folks who has desktop, laptop and PPC.

It's the geeks here who say things like "There's nothing really all that new" (yeah, nothing new than a completely upgraded core OS... :roll:) that are the ones who are shrugging this off as nothing important.

True, it is a brand new core OS, but in the surface it is still looks like the older PPC2002 with several minor improvements. I purchased a 2210 for my girlfriend yesterday morning, play with it for 2 full days, plug my wifi card in it, connect to my desktop, stream some mp3s, connect to internet, plug my GPRS card, install RVGSM 3.0, send SMS, connect thru GPRS, play ICQ, connect to internet, run winampaq, etc ... and I am going to ship it to japan tomorrow. Honestly, other than the slightly increased speed and WMP 9's cool vizualisation, I see no major 'wow' effect. I dont get the wow effect like the one I experienced when upgrading my workstation from win2k to XP pro. I will leave my axim X5 with PPC2002 for now.

[Pony99CA]

It's the geeks here who say things like "There's nothing really all that new" (yeah, nothing new than a completely upgraded core OS... :roll:) that are the ones who are shrugging this off as nothing important.
True, it is a brand new core OS, but in the surface it is still looks like the older PPC2002 with several minor improvements. I purchased a 2210 for my girlfriend yesterday morning, play with it for 2 full days, plug my wifi card in it, connect to my desktop, stream some mp3s, connect to internet, plug my GPRS card, install RVGSM 3.0, send SMS, connect thru GPRS, play ICQ, connect to internet, run winampaq, etc ... and I am going to ship it to japan tomorrow. Honestly, other than the slightly increased speed and WMP 9's cool vizualisation, I see no major 'wow' effect. I dont get the wow effect like the one I experienced when upgrading my workstation from win2k to XP pro. I will leave my axim X5 with PPC2002 for now.
I agree. What did we say when Palm OS 5 came out, with a supposedly redone core OS? :sleeping:

Building infrastructure for the future is nice, but we also want visible things we can play with. :-)

Steve

[droppedd]

First, does Toshiba actually advertise that their Pocket PCs are upgradable? I briefly checked the Toshiba Web site (http://www.csd.toshiba.com/cgi-bin/tais/pc/pc_prodList.jsp?comm=CS&plin=Toshiba%20Pocket%20PC) for mentions of upgrade capabilities and didn't find any, except for upgrades that were already available (Windows Mobile 2003 for the e750). For example, try to find a mention of the e350 being upgradable.
Well, as someone had pointed out in an earlier discussion, if you look on the spec sheet for the e350 they tout "Flash ROM" as a feature; even if they avoid explicitly saying they'll provide uses for that ROM. What else are you going to advertise the amount of Flash ROM for? Comfort in knowing you have unusable FlashROM on your system? :)


Second, what is "the life of the device"? I agree it should be longer than three months, but many people are still using iPAQ 3600s. I think each device should get one OS upgrade offered; anything more would be gravy.

Agreed; or, better yet, they should provide upgrades to the latest OS for at least one year from the time they stop selling the device. A company's future upgrade policy should be clearly stated on the spec sheet, just like manufacturer's warranty period is.

[SLUG]

Actually I think Microsoft needs to step in on this because of the potential bad press this can produce for them. I think that a Pocket PC upgrade should be just as simple as a desktop O/S upgrade. You should be able to buy the O/S from Microsoft, put the CD in your desktop, sync your Pocket PC and the setup program should detect your Pocket PC model and automatically flash the ROM with the appropriate image. I'll get off my soapbox for now. :soapbox:

[droppedd]

I think that a Pocket PC upgrade should be just as simple as a desktop O/S upgrade.

That ignores the realities of PDAs. To keep footprints small and the OS (somewhat) reliable, there is a lot of engineering overhead involved in making the OS work for a given device. It's not a one-size-fits-all kind of deal. It's unfortunate, but it really can't be helped so long as there's much diversity in hardware available, even within a single manufacturer's line of PDAs. And that diversity is a good thing, i think.

Maybe for the next incarnation of Windows Mobile they can rewrite the core in so modular a fashion that it's simple "plug&play" for a manufacturer to offer a ROM update, not programming intensive... but it's unlikely.

[Pony99CA]

Well, as someone had pointed out in an earlier discussion, if you look on the spec sheet for the e350 they tout "Flash ROM" as a feature; even if they avoid explicitly saying they'll provide uses for that ROM. What else are you going to advertise the amount of Flash ROM for? Comfort in knowing you have unusable FlashROM on your system? :)
It's a spec sheet. That's where you list many things not very many people will care about. :-)

Steve

[droppedd]

It's a spec sheet. That's where you list many things not very many people will care about. :-)

True, but it's also listed up front as a feature on most major retailers' descriptions of the e740, for example.

[PPCRules]

I firmly believe that the Toshiba brand and sales will take more punishment from this move than the money it would have taken them to release the upgrade.

I believe this is just wishful thinking. They can easily ignore this and it will blow over without a blip. And it's not a number that will show up in an annual report, so no one will have to give an account for it. Also, it will be over and long past by a point in time when they would otherwise still be fielding support call from clueless users trying to upgrade (actually, it's sounding more and more like they made a very intentional and wise decision).
Like has been stated several time before, the percentage of owners that even knows that some think there's an issue, much less cares, is so small, and most of them will be so happy playing with their 2215s that six months from now no one will remember spending the time discussing this.
As for the e300 series, remember that it set a new low-price precedent when it first came out. They were probably not making the margins Dell has been able to make, so there is not a lot of profits to pay for developing after-the-sale "good will" for a few customers who will probably get a 2215 next time anyway.


... the North American trait of using something until it stops working."
These things do not stop working because a new version of their OS comes out (if they do, it's a different problem). They are working every bit as good as the day they were purchased. It's just the unrealized expectation that they would someday work better than when they were purchased that has [a few] people disappointed and/or upset.

[Ed Hansberry]

I firmly believe that the Toshiba brand and sales will take more punishment from this move than the money it would have taken them to release the upgrade.

I believe this is just wishful thinking. They can easily ignore this and it will blow over without a blip. And it's not a number that will show up in an annual report, so no one will have to give an account for it. Also, it will be over and long past by a point in time when they would otherwise still be fielding support call from clueless users trying to upgrade (actually, it's sounding more and more like they made a very intentional and wise decision).
Like has been stated several time before, the percentage of owners that even knows that some think there's an issue, much less cares, is so small, and most of them will be so happy playing with their 2215s that six months from now no one will remember spending the time discussing this.
I couldn't disagree more. How do you explain that Jornada 54x and Casio 125 sales virtually dried up overnight when in the late summer of 2001 Compaq came out with a press release guaranteing Pocket PC 2002 upgrades? Why is it that Toshiba sales still haven't climbed much beyond their 2002 levels? People know they abandoned the 570 with no EUU3 update. I know most people don't review sites like this but they have friends, family members and co-workers that do. Word travels. Yugo didn't get their garbage reputation because everyone purchased one or read the Car and Driver review. Word of mouth is powerful.

[PPCRules]

I couldn't disagree more. ...
Come, now. I'm sure you could.

Why is it that Toshiba sales still haven't climbed much beyond their 2002 levels?
It's about having the products people want (plus some marketing and some retailer support). Late last year, Dell introduced the product that people wanted (albeit in a slightly too large package). And as you can tell from the earlier post, I believe the 2215 (or 2215 plus 1940) will walk off with most of the market at this point (the products people want). I don't think Toshiba has a compelling product mix, and shouldn't be putting their money where they won't get a good [direct] return.

[Jason Dunn]

Actually I think Microsoft needs to step in on this because of the potential bad press this can produce for them. I think that a Pocket PC upgrade should be just as simple as a desktop O/S upgrade. You should be able to buy the O/S from Microsoft, put the CD in your desktop, sync your Pocket PC and the setup program should detect your Pocket PC model and automatically flash the ROM with the appropriate image. I'll get off my soapbox for now. :soapbox:

Can't work the same way. On your desktop computer you upgrade the OS, and Nvidia/ATI/whoever gives you a new graphics driver. Is QMedia (or some ODM company in Taiwan) going to give you a Windows Mobile 2003 compatible driver for your particular device? Nope. I wish it could work that way, but it can't... :|

[Mitch D]

I have tried to stay out of the Upgrade/No Upgrade area because I am not sure how I feel about it. But today I receieved an email from my head office that originated from my Toshiba Account Rep. regarding the lack of an upgrade for the Toshiba E series and it annoyed me. Here is what it said;

"Why is Toshiba not offering a Windows Mobile 2003 software upgrade path for the Toshiba e740 Pocket PC?
The e740 Pocket PC was Toshiba's first wireless-enabled PDA launched in June 2002. Users who purchased an e740 Pocket PC can still enjoy the flexibility of integrated Wi-Fi (IEEE 802.11b) wireless connectivity at local public hotspots or at a wireless campus and wireless home network, with the same security and reliability of PocketPC 2003, but without the Windows Mobile 2003 software upgrade.

While Toshiba does not offer an upgrade to Windows Mobile 2003, Toshiba continues to support our valued customers and will/have posted updates that you can download and are found on our Toshiba.ca website."

Now this annoys me, I work for a western canadian retailer that normally wouldn't put up with this kind of abandonment from a supplier but it seems that they have fallen for Toshiba's excuses as well. I am telling my customers to contact Toshiba to let them know how they feel, but I am stressing they need to be calm and polite about it.

[Jason Dunn]

Users who purchased an e740 Pocket PC can still enjoy the flexibility of integrated Wi-Fi (IEEE 802.11b) wireless connectivity at local public hotspots or at a wireless campus and wireless home network, with the same security and reliability of PocketPC 2003, but without the Windows Mobile 2003 software upgrade.

This is such complete and utter BS - Toshiba is repeating the manta "Windows Mobile 2003 only adds Zero-WiFi config...that's all!" over and over, but there's WAY more to the OS update than that. They're ignoring all the other improvements to the OS, like, oh, SPEED!!!! :roll:

[maximus]

Well, as someone had pointed out in an earlier discussion, if you look on the spec sheet for the e350 they tout "Flash ROM" as a feature; even if they avoid explicitly saying they'll provide uses for that ROM. What else are you going to advertise the amount of Flash ROM for? Comfort in knowing you have unusable FlashROM on your system? :)

Umm .. to tell you actually what it says: it has flash ROM. The deduction process (from flash ROM spec sheet = the promise of future upgradability) is simply faulty. Flash ROM = it can be upgraded, if deemed necessary.

[Varrus]

I can only deduce that there are people that work for Toshiba using this site, without identifying themselves as such. I'm not talking about a conspiracy or anything, but the only reason I can see for people irrationally supporting Toshiba's (and other Pocket PC manufacturer's) decision not to upgrade Pocket PC models that are fully capable of being upgraded, (and were advertised as such, along with Microsoft touting this ability over and over) is blind following of one's employer.

Do this many of you really not understand how much of an injustice this is? Are you really willing to be treated in this way each time you spend your hard-earned cash? If so, I feel sorry for you, and for the rest of us.

[droppedd]

I can only deduce that there are people that work for Toshiba using this site, without identifying themselves as such. I'm not talking about a conspiracy or anything, but the only reason I can see for people irrationally supporting Toshiba's (and other Pocket PC manufacturer's) decision not to upgrade Pocket PC models that are fully capable of being upgraded, (and were advertised as such, along with Microsoft touting this ability over and over) is blind following of one's employer.

Do this many of you really not understand how much of an injustice this is? Are you really willing to be treated in this way each time you spend your hard-earned cash? If so, I feel sorry for you, and for the rest of us.

I think you're overreacting... I'm sure there are people out there who don't see this as all that horrible of a move from Toshiba. Then again, there are Palm users in this forum, and i'll bet the Toshiba defenders are the folks still running Windows 95 - because hey, besides prettier buttons on the start menu, it's the same as Windows XP... right?! :roll:

[Varrus]

I think you're overreacting...
Yah, you're probably right. It's just frustrating to see that there really is no chance that consumers can expect better from Pocket PC manufacturers in the future when there are so many people lined up ready to hand over their cash and get hosed on their next purchase, and then argue that it's okay to be treated that way! :frusty:

[maximus]

Do this many of you really not understand how much of an injustice this is?

Justice lies in the eyes of the beholders .... my mind and yours may percept differently about an object.

Toshiba defenders are the folks still running Windows 95 - because hey, besides prettier buttons on the start menu, it's the same as Windows XP... right?!

Wrong. I am among the first person to upgrade computer OS. My server already run wserver 2003, while my workstations and laptop are all on XP pro. Sorry dude, but your deduction is simply moot. :wink:

Really. This toshiba issue is :treadmill:
Life is a journey of compromises. You can not have everything that you want everytime you want them.

[Ed Hansberry]

Really. This toshiba issue is :treadmill:
I think as far as getting an update for the 740, 330 and other devices, you are right. I think as far as being a learning experience though, Toshiba has blown it. In my circle of influence, here, on usenet, my friends, family and co-workers, I'll never recommend Toshiba again. I'll actively recommend against them in fact on this issue alone. They make a fine device, but it isn't a $99 throwaway PDA. You pay $300-$600 for something and you expect support.

[droppedd]

Do this many of you really not understand how much of an injustice this is?

Justice lies in the eyes of the beholders .... my mind and yours may percept differently about an object.

Toshiba defenders are the folks still running Windows 95 - because hey, besides prettier buttons on the start menu, it's the same as Windows XP... right?!

Wrong. I am among the first person to upgrade computer OS. My server already run wserver 2003, while my workstations and laptop are all on XP pro. Sorry dude, but your deduction is simply moot. :wink:

Really. This toshiba issue is :treadmill:
Life is a journey of compromises. You can not have everything that you want everytime you want them.

Nice use of the new treadmill icon :).

First of all, without getting too offtopic here... if your argument is for judicial/moral relativism (My opinion of justice is just as good as yours!) then I think you oughta do a little reading (Peter Singer, maybe) or thinking. Hey, if i think Hitler was a just and moral person, that doesn't mean I'm right. There is such a thing as objective moral standards, even if people disagree on them. Just realize that some of those people are going to be wrong, objectively, where things directly conflict :|. Then again, i have something of a utilitarian leaning philosophically.

And i didn't mean to suggest you literally still all use win95 - just that the claims being made ("who needs wm2k3?") are fairly similar. i was just being sarcastic and not attempting to draw a factual conclusion :).

Life may be a compromise and we may have to deal with that; but expecting at least the option of having the most recent OS on a $500 PDA you bought a month ago sounds reasonable to me. While, as you say, we can't always get what we want, why should we keep buying from a company that doesn't give us what we want (OS upgrades) when there are others that do give us what we want, like HP or Dell? but i cover old ground by saying that :treadmill:.

By the way, off on another tangent... does anyone else feel like the "en garde" smiley might make friendly arguments here a little more agressive? Maybe that's just me, but I would feel a little riled up at someone throwing a :takethat: at me in a post. I feel like one of those little guys could start some flamewars :).

[maximus]

By the way, off on another tangent... does anyone else feel like the "en garde" smiley might make friendly arguments here a little more agressive? Maybe that's just me, but I would feel a little riled up at someone throwing a :takethat: at me in a post. I feel like one of those little guys could start some flamewars :).

I think it is kind of cute. :takethat: ho ho.
Well, the more the merrier.

[davidspalding]

Does anyone remember that Toshiba sold secret submarine tech to the Soviets in the early 90s? They lost all U.S. Government contracts for a few years. I know, I tried to buy replacement parts from GSA or elsewhere, and was forbidden.

Doesn't seem to have hurt their bottom line much in the long run....

This is why I don't like their notebooks. They're cheap. Period. That and my review copy of the first Portege lost a file (completely) after 1.5 hours working on it on a airline flight.

[Kati Compton]

Does anyone remember that Toshiba sold secret submarine tech to the Soviets in the early 90s? They lost all U.S. Government contracts for a few years. I know, I tried to buy replacement parts from GSA or elsewhere, and was forbidden.
My mother got so mad, she (much to the detriment of Toshiba's sales I'm sure.... :roll: ;)) rearranged the letters in their name, and would only refer to them as BOA SH*T for a while.

[maximus]

Really ? a mother can be that mean ? :p

[darstar]

Toshiba knows they have screwed up?

I wonder if Microsoft realizes the amount money their loosing becase of Toshiba not offering the pocket pc OS software upgrades?

Here is the email from Toshiba Canada below:


Dear Sir;
Thank you again for contacting Toshiba of Canada Ltd.
Until now, there are no plans to post the upgrade for the Pocket PC 2003 software for the e-740. We assure you that your suggestions will be taken into consideration and will be forwarded to the concerned party.
If you have any other technical questions, please do not hesitate to contact us or phone the support line at 1-800-663-0378.
Best Regards,
Mira Makkar
Toshiba Notebook Support



----- Original Message -----
To: "Notebook Notes" &lt;[email protected]>
Sent: Thursday, July 24, 2003 1:46 PM
Subject: Re: e740 -pocket pc


>
> Hello Toshiba Support,
>
> Does this mean that I can't use pocket pc 2003 on the toshia e740?
>
> That I have to wait till you guys release it in order to put it on my
e740? Are you planning on coming out with the upgrade or can I purchase this OS directly from Microsoft?
>
> I think you need to put this info on your support site ASAP for your
exisiting customers to keep them informed about the products they have purchased.
>
> Remember that is costs more to get a new customer then it is to keep
> an
existing customer...
>
> Any feedback will be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks,
> Darryl
>
> ---------- Original Message ----------------------------------
> From: "Notebook Notes" &lt;[email protected]>
> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:51:19 -0400
>
> >Dear Sir,
> >
> >Thank you for contacting Toshiba of Canada Limited, Notebook Computer
> >Division with your inquiry.
> >
> >Unfortunately, the Pocket PC 2003 is not available for the e-740 at
> >this time.
> >If you would like to further discuss this matter with one of our
> >technicians, please feel free to call Toshiba's world-class In-Touch
> >Centre for product support and customer service. We can be reached
> >24/7 in Canada by dialing (800) 663-0378 or
> >(905)470-6565 when outside of Canada.
> >
> >Best Regards,
> >
> >Mira Makkar
> >Toshiba Notebook Support
> >
> >
> >
> >> >
> >> > User name: Darryl
> >> > What were you looking for when you came to our web site?
> >> > I am looking for the PocketPC OS upgrade 2003 for my Tosiba 740? Where can I purchase the software and download it from your website?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks,
> >> > Darryl
> >>

[maximus]

I wonder if Microsoft realizes the amount money their loosing becase of Toshiba not offering the pocket pc OS software upgrades?

Uh, I am just curious, what is your estimation of microsoft's lost? Can you share a ballpark figure ? Please also share the logic in getting the number.
Perhaps if microsoft sees your numbers, they might start beating up toshiba and force it to produce the upgrade.

[darstar]

I can't predict the numbers their loosing? But from what I can tell from all the forums there are a lot of unhappy Toshiba customers.

Check out Microsoft Pocket PC site as it says:

I already have a Pocket PC 2002, is it upgradeable?
Technically, all Pocket PC 2002 devices are capable of supporting the new Windows Mobile software for Pocket PC. Pocket PC 2000 devices are not however upgradeable to this latest software release. While your Pocket PC 2002 is technically upgradeable, each individual original equipment manufacturer (OEM) (i.e. the company that manufactured your Pocket PC) ultimately decides whether or not to offer a software upgrade. OEMs may choose not to offer an upgrade for all Pocket PC models in all languages in all countries.

http://www.microsoft.com/windowsmobile/products/pocketpc/about/2003/upgrade.mspx

So lets wake up Toshiba! Pocket PC 2003 has better wifi support and your e740 should work better!