The French Government is weird. [Archive]

Janak Parekh

07-20-2003, 06:21 AM

This is not only an issue with France, it's an issue with the de facto assumption of English terms on a global scale. Many other countries are grappling with the perception that their identity, especially that which spoken through language, is being blurred. Numerous articles have been written on the subject.

BTW, even here, we don't know quite what to call it. Many people are pushing for the adoption of "email" instead of "e-mail".

--janak

p.s. The moderator in me says, let's avoid ethnic slurs, please :)

Excalliber

07-20-2003, 07:07 AM

Just like French-fries were renamed freedom-fries? I say it's revenge :lol: :wink:

dean_shan

07-20-2003, 07:15 AM

Just like French-fries were renamed freedom-fries? I say it's revenge :lol: :wink:

Yeah well I thought that was pretty stupid too.

Crystal Eitle

07-20-2003, 08:10 AM

I majored in French, and spent a year studying in France. My prediction is that "courriel" won't catch on. It's an awkward, ugly word, and everyone already says "email" already anyway, just like they wear "le jean" and eat "le popcorn" (which the Academie Francaise stubbornly refers to as "mais souffle." Yeah right).

The French are particularly proud of their language, and they are perhaps one of the few countries to have an official body charged with watching over that language, the Academie Francaise. Unfortunately, the Academie not only ruthlessly frowns upon foreign words, it also guards the "purity" of the French language by forbidding neologisms (new words). So unlike the English language, which can freely make up new words based on existing roots, prefixes, and suffixes, the French language is effectively hamstrung. If the French people were allowed to make up new French words, perhaps they wouldn't have to resort to using so many English words. But as it stands, they have no other choice. As a result, French "borrows" more English words than perhaps any other European language.

dean_shan

07-20-2003, 09:34 AM

I never knew. Thanks for the history Crystal.

Duncan

07-20-2003, 12:16 PM

As a result, French "borrows" more English words than perhaps any other European language.

The absurd thing is - for centuries English has freely borrowed, absorbed and adapted French (and German, Dutch, Arabic, Punjabi, etc.) words and phrases.

One of the words we took from French? 'Mail' (from Old French 'male' = bag). 'Electronic' is made up from 'electron' (an international term - not english) and the ending 'ic' - a wholesale borrowing from...'French' (ique)!

dcharles18

07-20-2003, 12:43 PM

Wow, talk about a lack of freedom!! Not even Soviet Russia tried to control the Russian language.

"courriel" - it's like wiping your *** with silk . . . :lol:

07-20-2003, 01:42 PM

Idiots!

Hyperluminal

07-20-2003, 02:00 PM

Wait, how can the Academie Francaise keep control over the French language anyway? I mean, what power do they have to stop everyone from using neologisms?

Also, in Quebec, where I'm assuming the AF doesn't have control, is the language evolving differently than in France?

Duncan

07-20-2003, 03:31 PM

Wait, how can the Academie Francaise keep control over the French language anyway?

They don't. The French have a healthy disdain for the Academie's pronouncements.

Plus - there are over 50 discreet varieties of English, around a dozen varieties of Spanish and a good few varieties of French - each variety of a language feeds the others in its group and, in turn, is influenced by other languages - the AF really haven't a hope in hell!

Mind you - the US also had a body that enforced normative US English once (think the dropping of 'ou' for 'o' or 'll' for 'l' was accidental?). The British too had so-called BBC English (determined by a government depatment - who, btw, declared that 'margarine' has to be pronounced with a hard 'g') - so it isn't just the French

Crystal Eitle

07-20-2003, 03:40 PM

Wait, how can the Academie Francaise keep control over the French language anyway? I mean, what power do they have to stop everyone from using neologisms?

The influence in academia is pretty strong, which in turn influences what appears in literature and other printed forms of the language. It doesn't really have an influence on spoken language, or informal language such as advertising, as far as I can tell.

Also, in Quebec, where I'm assuming the AF doesn't have control, is the language evolving differently than in France?
Yes.

Crystal Eitle

07-20-2003, 03:42 PM

Idiots!
Heh. I wouldn't go that far. They're just really proud of their language, and consider it to be a key part of their national identity. They're just trying to protect it, albeit in a pretty misguided way.

Kati Compton

07-20-2003, 03:49 PM

If you want to discuss variations in how different languages work, that's fine. But if there are more insults of a whole language or nationality, I will lock this thread.

Jacob

07-20-2003, 04:16 PM

Kati Compton

07-20-2003, 04:31 PM

I seem to remember people having trouble following the "only speak in Latin" rule turn Latin class in high school (I wasn't there, but I heard about it) simply because a lot of modern concepts could not be conveyed. I believe there's an association that's made suggestions on phrases that can be used....

Duncan

07-20-2003, 05:30 PM

There's nothing wrong with coming up with new words in a language to make sure that it doesn't adopt words from another.. it's not just done in France.

Israel has a similar group that comes up with Hebrew words for modern concepts that well, since Hebrew is a biblical language, it simply doesn't have.

This whole approach goes against the natural evolutionary process of language. Hebrew may be a Biblical language but it didn't stand still in the modern era - it continued to develop in exactly the same way every language does - some internal development and a lot of borrowing/adoption from other languages (Hebrew itself has at least three known language roots from which it developed).

It is only in fairly modern times that a paranoia about English dominance has developed among some parts of some language groups. It is, however, an immensely silly exercise to try and control the development of language - any language. But then a lot of supposed borrowings from English are themselves originally borrowed/incorporated from other languages - including a large percentage of terms covering modern technology (the major growth area for languages in general).

As for your school's 'only speak in Latin' rule Kati - methinks a generally good rule for 'living' languages has been taken a step too far there (even the Romans tended to prefer speaking in other tongues - though there was a 'street Latin' which is largely lost to us and for which pronunciations can only be guess-work!) - developing new words in Latin would be at best an academic exercise by linguists...

Gremmie

07-20-2003, 07:03 PM

Jacob

07-20-2003, 07:08 PM

This whole approach goes against the natural evolutionary process of language. Hebrew may be a Biblical language but it didn't stand still in the modern era - it continued to develop in exactly the same way every language does - some internal development and a lot of borrowing/adoption from other languages (Hebrew itself has at least three known language roots from which it developed).

So you're saying that if a group in the government comes up with a word and people use it then it's against the natural evolution of a language, but if it's borrowed from another language then it's okay?

Language evolves by people inventing words too - when something is invented they have to come up with a term for it. This group in Israel came up with words for radio and television, but noone used them because they were too long, so now they use versions of the English ones. Their word for computer caught on and now has pretty much become part of every day vocabulary there. I don't see how that's against the natural evolution of language.

They are just giving people another option that they feel fits in the language better than a slightly modified version of the English. In the end they can't force people to use it - and that will decide whether the word is accepted into popular use or not.

Duncan

07-20-2003, 07:46 PM

This whole approach goes against the natural evolutionary process of language.

Oh? And California who stopped the ebonics proposition also stopped the natural evolution? This doesn't stop people using common phrases everyday, just the government, America does that in several ways (i.e. political correctness). It's not a violation of evolutionary vocabulary like you're trying to make it out to be.

OK - first - I have no idea what this 'ebonics' proposition was (since we are talking California I'm not going to assume a glorious moment in legislative history)! Secondly - I really can't work out what you are challenging me on? My point was that governments or institutions can't force language to develop in a particular way, or enforce particular words to be used - language develops through everyday use by everyday people. I really can't tell whether you are disagreeing with that or not??

So you're saying that if a group in the government comes up with a word and people use it then it's against the natural evolution of a language, but if it's borrowed from another language then it's okay?

Well actually - no, I'm not saying anything of the sort! As you point out - it is people, by mass consensus, who choose the words they use - and they will do so whatever the source. It is when governemnts and 'academies' try to define correct language that they fall flat on their faces! Governmental/institutional influence is not needed in lanaguage development - but they are perfectly free to provide options for people (and why not?) - as long as it isn't done in an attempt to straightjacket language! Note - I said: 'It is, however, an immensely silly exercise to try and control the development of language' - nowhere did I say institutions/governments can't create words as a choice for people to use...

Duncan

07-20-2003, 08:00 PM

Oh, OK - I've just looked up the Ebonics thing - I think I see what you meant now. You appear to be mixing in an entirely different topic of discussion - the use of language as it currently exists.

Language is in a process of constant recodification - as such there is always a 'standard' form of English (which, none-the-less, remains very flexible) that is used by everone in order to facilitate understanding. That is what schools teach. However - new words, phrases, forms of expression constantly develop outside of the 'standard' and, through time, become added. This is not controlled by governments or institutions (thankfully) but is an entirely free and dynamic process within society.

In not 'teaching' Ebonics, or accepting it as an alternative standard, no form of control over correct language is being used - just a realisation that there is a universal standard (created by mass acceptance not decree) useful to all.

Now - imagine if the State of California produced a list of new terms to replace foreign borrowings in American English and insisted they were to be taught exclusively as correct English - would that be accepted? That is the only area of 'language control' that I have spoken out against here...!

Jason Dunn

07-20-2003, 10:41 PM

Oh hell, let's just make English the official global language for the whole planet and let cultures differentiate themselves based on tasty food. :mrgreen:

Duncan

07-20-2003, 10:48 PM

Bugger - that's the British screwed then....

Duncan

07-20-2003, 10:49 PM

Of course the entire universe speaks English according to Stargate...

dean_shan

07-20-2003, 11:08 PM

Of course the entire universe speaks English according to Stargate...
And Star Wars, and Star Trek, and any other movie/show that starts with "Star" :wink:

Kati Compton

07-20-2003, 11:55 PM

Bugger - that's the British screwed then....
Last time I was in London I had some great food! It was this nice little Indi... oh wait.....

;)

Jacob

07-21-2003, 12:09 AM

Well, Canada would have Poutine, Maple Syrup and back bacon... now that's a meal!!

Duncan

07-21-2003, 12:36 AM

Of course the entire universe speaks English according to Stargate...
And Star Wars, and Star Trek, and any other movie/show that starts with "Star" :wink:
The reason I pick on Stargate is that unlike Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who etc. it has never provided an explanation (no matter how silly) for everyone (seemingly) speaking English!

Duncan

07-21-2003, 12:43 AM

Bugger - that's the British screwed then....
Last time I was in London I had some great food! It was this nice little Indi... oh wait.....

;)
I think I may have been a little unfair to my country - it was discovered last week that we invented lasagne - and there is spotted dick, fish and chips, yorkshire pudding... God's own food y'know...

dean_shan

07-21-2003, 01:25 AM

The reason I pick on Stargate is that unlike Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who etc. it has never provided an explanation (no matter how silly) for everyone (seemingly) speaking English!
True. Stargate never explained how they activated the gate to get back to Earth. They added the keypad at the gate in the TV series.

Reza

07-22-2003, 01:28 PM

Who needs French or English when you can use a Babel Fish?! :lol:

The Babel Fish

The Babel Fish is small, yellow, and simultaneously translates from one spoken language to another.
When inserted into the ear, its nutrition processes convert sound waves into brain waves, neatly crossing the language divide between any species you should happen to meet whilst travelling in space.

Some say that the evolution of the Babel fish could not have been accidental, and hence that it proves the non-existence of God.

Arthur Dent, a surviving Earthling, commented only 'Eurgh!' when first inserting the fish into his ear canal. It did, however, enable him to understand Vogon Poetry - not, necessarily, a good thing.

Duncan

07-22-2003, 01:36 PM

Of course we live in the real world where the closest thing we have to a Babel Fish does this to your post:

Who needs French or, English, if you can use a Babelfisch?! The Babelfisch Babelfi is small, colors themselves yellow and translated simultaneous from a spoken language to others. If they are inserted into the ear, change its food processes acoustic waves into the brain waves over and properly cross the language, divide between any sort, which you should happen meetings, during, traveling to area. Say some that the development Babelfi could not have been inadvertent, and therefore this examines it the Nichtvorhandsein of the God. Arthur recessing, surviving Earthling, commentated only ' Eurgh!', if first the fish into its ear channel to be inserted. He made however to understand poetry Vogon - not necessarily a good thing for it possible.

Reza

07-22-2003, 03:00 PM

this examines it the Nichtvorhandsein of the God. :rotfl:

Crystal Eitle

07-22-2003, 03:01 PM

Well, Canada would have Poutine, Maple Syrup and back bacon... now that's a meal!!
All at one sitting? :pukeface:

Jacob

07-22-2003, 04:02 PM

Well, Canada would have Poutine, Maple Syrup and back bacon... now that's a meal!!
All at one sitting? :pukeface:

I've never had all of that at one sitting - Back Bacon and maple syrup yes, but not with poutine.

Most people are quite disgusted when I describe what poutine is, but I like it.

dean_shan

07-22-2003, 04:35 PM

Most people are quite disgusted when I describe what poutine is, but I like it.

What is it?

Crystal Eitle

07-22-2003, 04:39 PM

GoldKey

07-22-2003, 04:52 PM

droppedd

07-22-2003, 04:59 PM

Israel has a similar group that comes up with Hebrew words for modern concepts that well, since Hebrew is a biblical language, it simply doesn't have. They have had some glaring failures, but also some successes where people have caught on and use the word over the English version.

Very true. But the trick is getting your new word in before a foreign word catches on. Coming up with a french word for email 20 years after the Internet was invented is a little too slow for the pace of technology :).

Israelis have had Hebrew terms for even the more obscure computer terms, with only a few of the terms forced into transliteration("virus" is "virus," just spelled in Hebrew letters). Some of them are rather clever - "computer" is called "Machshev" in Hebrew - literally, "thinker."

There's a good reference on the Hebrew words here - http://www.dictionary.co.il/ (helps if you can read Hebrew though :)).

There's Hebrew terms for everything from "Abnormal Termination" to "workstation."

Hebrew is a bit different of a case than French though. Hebrew was dead for hundreds of years as a spoken language and was revived in the late 19th century. As such, it's had a firm governing body for most of the life of the language, although it does occasionally develop freely (Arabic words like "sababa" and "yalla" have wormed their way into Hebrew slang). But if the French Academy wants to have people actually use the French words, they ought to introduce them early on in the development of a technology - not after even the most computer-illiterate French businessmen have several email accounts :roll:.

Jacob

07-22-2003, 05:05 PM

Most people are quite disgusted when I describe what poutine is, but I like it.

What is it?
I've never had it, but I think it's French Fries smothered in cheese gravy. Jacob can correct me if I'm wrong.

Whats so disgusting about that? Sounds pretty good!

It's made as such:
Add Cheese curds on top of french fries. Then pour gravy on top - this melts the cheese and does make somewhat of a cheese gravy. :D

It is very fatty - but it is good.

Crystal Eitle

07-22-2003, 05:12 PM

It's made as such:
Add Cheese curds on top of french fries. Then pour gravy on top - this melts the cheese and does make somewhat of a cheese gravy. :D

It is very fatty - but it is good.
Douglas Coupland recently wrote a book about Canada. I can't remember the exact title, but it's quite good. Anyway, one of the things he talks about is the prevalence of fat and cheese in the Canadian diet, making particular mention of "Kraft Dinner," which is known to be a staple.

I imagine it's pretty similar to the Minnesota diet, and due to the climate. One craves hearty food.

trachy

07-22-2003, 06:07 PM

Oh hell, let's just make English the official global language for the whole planet and let cultures differentiate themselves based on tasty food. :mrgreen:

We could really benefit from a constructed language like Esperanto (http://www.esperanto.net), if you ask me.

Janak Parekh

07-22-2003, 06:12 PM

I imagine it's pretty similar to the Minnesota diet, and due to the climate. One craves hearty food.
I don't know about this... obesity is a problem all over the place in North America. There's too many tasty places to eat in New York, too... on the other hand, NYC isn't that far from the Canadian border, either :lol:

--janak

GoldKey

07-22-2003, 06:15 PM

It's made as such:
Add Cheese curds on top of french fries. Then pour gravy on top - this melts the cheese and does make somewhat of a cheese gravy. :D

It is very fatty - but it is good.

Yet another place we could use that drool emoticon.

easylife

07-22-2003, 07:36 PM

Fun Facts about Canada (http://www.thoughtviper.com/inexob/canada.html) (all in good fun! :mrgreen: )
It is ILLEGAL in Canada to use the letter "O" without putting a "U" after it! (As in "Colour" or "Poutine" or "Filthy Whoure")
This explains a lot about Jason's spelling mentality! :wink: Thank's for the link, Crystal! :D

Another favorite:
In Canada, GERBILS are called CARIBOU!
:rotfl:

Jacob

07-22-2003, 09:08 PM

Douglas Coupland recently wrote a book about Canada. I can't remember the exact title, but it's quite good. Anyway, one of the things he talks about is the prevalence of fat and cheese in the Canadian diet, making particular mention of "Kraft Dinner," which is known to be a staple.

I imagine it's pretty similar to the Minnesota diet, and due to the climate. One craves hearty food.

That's kinda funny since "Kraft Dinner" is only "Kraft Macaroni and cheese" renamed.

It's really only eaten by kids and college students. Just about anyone who is on a really strict budget - since you get deals where it's 3/$1 - and that's a Canadian dollar!

dean_shan

07-22-2003, 09:34 PM

It's made as such:
Add Cheese curds on top of french fries. Then pour gravy on top - this melts the cheese and does make somewhat of a cheese gravy. :D

It is very fatty - but it is good.

That sounds good. Like cheese frys taken to the next fat level.

Jason Dunn

07-22-2003, 10:41 PM

Yet another place we could use that drool emoticon.

Ye gots yer damn drool emoticon!

:drool:

Oh, now I need a pirate emociton. Or a Breunor Battlehammer emoticon...hmm...

This is already in the off-topic forum mods, please don't punish me. :duh:

Jason Dunn

07-22-2003, 10:42 PM

It's really only eaten by kids and college students.

Or by people who LIKE it. I happen to like it. :mrgreen:

Janak Parekh

07-22-2003, 10:42 PM

Oh, now I need a pirate emociton. Or a Breunor Battlehammer emoticon...hmm...
Doesn't :takethat: suffice? Or does he have to have a stump? :lol:

Anyway, (relatively) back ontopic: poutine sounds downright scary to me, and I can say with relief that it's probably very scarce in NYC (I haven't seen it anywhere).

However, I do have my own sources of heartache. There's a grilled sandwich place on Broadway just south of Exchange Place (about two-three blocks north of the iron bull and Bowling Green) that lets you put virtually anything into a sandwich. My favorite sandwich there is hard-boiled eggs, sundried tomatoes, American cheese and (decent) french fries. Yes, inside the sandwich. Don't diss fries in your sandwich until you've tried it. Yum! :D

--janak

droppedd

07-23-2003, 04:34 AM

Some of the more authentic Israeli restaurants will also put French fries in your falafel or shwarma unless you ask them not to. That's usually at places that serve on lafah- the massive pita breads roughly the size of a medium pizza which is not cut, but wrapped around the fillings.

so mixed grill or deep-fried chickpea balls, plus tahina (thick sesame sauce), plus Israeli salad (tomatoes and cucumbers), plus lettuce and cabbage, plus french fries, all wrapped in one giant pita is par for the course at many Israeli restaurants.