Handango Filters Adult Software

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3781.html' target='_blank'>http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3781.html</a><br /><br /></div>Seeing the linked infoSync article above reminded me of this issue. I wanted to give my very public, and very supportive, endorsement of Handango's recent decision to filter out all adult software from their software catalog.<br /><br />My take on it is this: I personally have no issues with adult software being sold on a site (business is business). If someone wants this type of software, they should have the freedom to get it like any other software. But I only think it should be on sites if that software never comes up in a search result, that software never appears on the front page of that site, and when you go into an adult-only category, you're required to indicate your age by agreeing to an online EULA. None of the sites have ever done that though - they mix in strip poker with freecell games, and few people seemed to think this was a big deal.<br /><br />What if your local video store mixed adult movies in with kids videos? No one would stand for it, yet for years that's exactly what the online software vendors have done. I emailed Handango several weeks ago about this, only to find out that they were already working on it! Cool. PocketGear has created an adult category, so that's a start, but they still have strip poker banners on their home page and adult titles still appear on their lists of new applications and best selling applications. Keep going PocketGear!

[Jeff Rutledge]

I agree completely. I've always found it interesting that the Internet seems to have a separate set of rules (I know it's because it's new territory, etc.). It's great to see some sites evolving to the next level though.

Way to go Handango!! (Who would have thought we'd be uttering such praises considering some of the issues folks have had.) :D

[MBaas]

I totally agree. The reason I'm no longer visiting PocketGear is that you always have to be prepared for some adult-banners jumping in your face - and I just do not want that stuff.

Cheers

Michael

[Kevin Remhof]

Wow, it's about time. Handango has always been pretty careful with their adult titles though. I have never had a problem with their site. PocketGear though, that's a different story. I'm always afraid my boss will walk by and see the banner ads. :oops:

[Gerard]

Ditto; this is an excellent move. There's the odd freak kid around who actually thinks those garbage games and themes are cool, but have they no mothers? No girlfriends? The damage all elements of the porn industry does to women, directly as victims, and indirectly through diminished stature in the culture, is something we must take seriously if we are to have any hope of improving the lot of all people. Seeing Handango remove this offensive material is a great bit of news. More power to them. They just rose several notches in my esteem.

[Duncan]

Half a round of applause for Handango. Good that they've done this but inexcusable that they've taken so long to do it.

[CTSLICK]

I had to quit visiting PocketGear at work due to the banner ads and I have to watch it at home too with the kids looking over my shoulder. Handango wasn't much better for a while. Glad to see that Handango is taking some action.

[yawanag]

Thanks for going to bat for us Jason. I was quite offended when I noticed the Adult software listed where kids could be browsing.

[Jason Dunn]

Handango wasn't much better for a while.

Handango had adult-style banner ads on their site? Wow - I've never seen that...it really surprises me. You're sure about that? :|

[ChristopherTD]

So the scoresheet is Handango 1 - PocketGear 0

I am always amazed at the amount of adult titles that appear in PocketGear searches, it is almost as if their search engine randomly adds them in.

[Ed Hansberry]

Kudos Handango! I stopped visiting Pocket Gear a long time ago because of this and refused to link to software on their site. If the software was only available on their site, I just passed.

[Jerry Raia]

I was on Pocket Gear looking for a poker game and 90% of them were strip poker, one after another. I finally gave up.

[griph]

Seeing the linked infoSync article above reminded me of this issue. I wanted to give my very public, and very supportive, endorsement of Handango's recent decision to filter out all adult software from their software catalog.

Jason I agree with this wholehearedly! I hope PocketGear do the same - I am personally fed up seeing the 'Pocket Strip' adverts in the general Whats New section there.

[lurch]

I'll throw my appreciation in the ring for Handango.. way to go!

[thanos255]

I was on Pocket Gear looking for a poker game and 90% of them were strip poker, one after another. I finally gave up.


Where did you happen to find a ral poker game? Not the video poker stuff, but real hold'em etc...
Just Curious

Thanks
Thanos

[Jacob]

Good for them!

If they still wanted to sell it, they could just go to the way I think www.pocketpcthemes.com handles it.

If you want to buy that software you just have to login with a registered username that you already provided a credit card for simple verification.

I've stopped going to PocketGear for that reason - too much of the porn crap mixed in.

[DerekTheGeek]

Thanks for reporting on this Jason. I had stopped going to PocketGear.com several months ago because of this. It seems like we can't go anywhere today without being inindated with advertisements that flaunt naked women and sex all over the place. Heck, you can't watch most soda commericals without it being shoved in your face.
I may get flamed for this but I am up for it.....As a married man the only woman that I want to think of in an intimate manner is my wife. If more companies hear from consumers like us then perhaps they will stop trying to sell their products with porn.

Way to go Handango and well done.

- Derek

[PeterLake]

Talk about opposite psychology. I gotta check out PocketGear right now ...

[egoz]

This is just another example of American ultra-right mentalities seeping into mainstream culture.

Imagine a culture where we actually taught our children "discretion."
Maybe we'd have less addicts (e.g., substance/behavioral), and more citizen's with self-control.

Weak people don't progress anything but more weak standards.

.rob

[hamishmacdonald]

Totally off-topic...

Your analogy to a video store was an apt one, but I was amazed by Blockbuster here in Edinburgh, Scotland: you know all those porn movies with the comically-close-to-a-hit-movie titles? Well, for some inexplicable reason they mix those in with the original titles. So you'd get "Dangerous Lesbians" next to "Dangerous Liaisons" in drama. Okay, I made up the title, but the principle is real.

Weird. I thought Blockbuster were supposed to be all puritanical.

Anyway, I'll be happy not to see all the pictures of bimbos on the site. (I don't get what the attraction is to lobotomised-looking women.) Can't imagine why anyone would bother with that format anyway, when the internet is ripe with real porn. Or then there's the possibility of actually making contact with another human being...

[CTSLICK]

Handango wasn't much better for a while.

Handango had adult-style banner ads on their site? Wow - I've never seen that...it really surprises me. You're sure about that? :|

Sorry, should have been more clear. :oops: For a while I was having to sift through adult themed software among the other software. I never saw any banner ads.

[kidA]

i could not agree more! this is great and it's about time. i can't stand going to pocketgear because there are strip poker banners everywhere and no matter what you search for, some adult title is almost always one of the top 20 search results. i don't know why, but it's always seemed to me like pocketgear liked the stuff and made an effort to get it on the front page. way to go handango!

[David C]

This reminds me of the argument about how adult contents shoule appear on the internet. I think there should be a seperate .something strickly for porn. like .porn for example. I hate browsing at work, and to have adult banner pop up out of no where when I just type in the wrong url. Sure, porn makes money. But I rather be mentaly prepared to see one when I see one.

[MichaelZareli]

Handango’s Hypocrisy???
This is a letter I have received from http://www.aimproductions.be/

"Handango.com Goes Family Friendly?

Due to the new Family Friendly policy of Handango, all soft-erotic games will no longer be available to you for purchase through Handango's main website (www.handango.com).
However, because of the major success of our erotic games in the American, Asian and European markets, several of Handango's affiliates decided NOT to follow this "new policy" and to continue distributing these erotic games!

(You'll find a list of these affiliates and other interesting shops at the bottom of this newsletter).

What does this mean for me?

You won't notice any changes on www.handango.com immediately, except when you're looking for erotic games - you won't find any!

Therefore, in the future all our press and release mailings, promotions and special deals will be redirected to our own shop www.aimproductions.be, which, by the way, is still powered by Handango itself!
(Ain't that the truth :)

Where will I find updates, add-ons or even new exciting games?

It's easy. You won't find these on "www.handango.com" anymore!
From now on, just go to www.aimproductions.be (Handango-powered shop).

You don't even need a new Handango account because you already have one. And don't worry missing out on any NEW and exciting HOT games, news and updates, because we'll keep you posted.

Other affiliates and interesting shops!

Because of Handango's new policy, AIM Productions will continuously keep on promoting the following shops, which don't have any problem in also distributing "soft-erotic entertainment".
You'll have the Freedom of Choice to decide When, Where but above all What YOU want!
www.aimproductions.be (Handango powered)
www.pocketgear.com (Pocket PC)
www.smartphone.net (Smartphone)
www.pdagreen.com (Palm)
www.handango.com/tucows (affiliate site)
www.handango.com/pdabuzz (affiliate site)
www.handango.com/jungle (affiliate site)
www.handango.com/mobileplanet-fr (affiliate site-France)
http://de.handango.com (affiliate site-Germany)
http://visavis.handango.com/ (affiliate site-Japan)
www.cherrysoft.be (Soft-Erotic games)"

I guess it would be simpler to add one question: are you browsing from inside US if yes then filter all erotic titles otherwise no filter should be applied :)

[ghostppc]

:clap: Good job Handango! It's about time. The adult games seemed bad enough to see on the main page. Then recently, they started adding adult videos. This had become a bit much. Kudos to Handango and whoever is working on getting the content filtered!!!

[quidproquo]

I agree with Handango's move....the porn is ubiquitous on the net and if someone really wants it....go find it on the net... but don't subject EVERYONE to it just because there are a few who want it.

Pop up ads are a curse that should be cleaned off the net!! (they are either trying to sell insurance or sex!)

[MichaelZareli]

Ok Supreme Justices:

Is http://www.pocketgear.com/software_detail.asp?id=6673 Strippoker 2 worse that say situations depicted in "Sex in the City"? or another shows that are available on CABLE TV?

And what is this long link (http://www.handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=1&jid=EF869DXD7CDC69568C2C5A19FEX3BC6C&productId=46549&optionId=1_2_2&productType=2&catalog=30&txtSearch=adult§ionId=0&platformId=2?)

BTW: I just went to Google and searched for
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=porn - I think we should emial google to filter such results - or better lets switch to another search engine that filters the results for us....

[/code]

[Ed Hansberry]

BTW: I just went to Google and searched for
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=porn - I think we should emial google to filter such results - or better lets switch to another search engine that filters the results for us....
Google will. Just set your search preferences to strict filtering.

[bjornkeizers]

I'm definitely not a big fan of Handango; I've heard too many things from too many people.. and I'd never do business with them. But! It must be said that this is a good move, and credit where credit is due. I was surfing on Pocketgear last week, also looking for some card games, and 95% of the results are strip poker... and I didn't ask for that.

I would like to point out though that this move and indeed, everyone's reaction to this is rather hypocritical: everybody's applauding Handango's move, but Handango will gladly sell these titles and take a big cut of the sale.. and they are obviously popular titles:

[all figures are from Pocketgear.com]

Stripteaser 1.1 [aim productions: 8273 downloads
Strip Blackjack, same guys: 19456 downloads
Pocket Strip poker 2, aim productions yet again: 14656 downloads

And there are quite a few other titles with thousands of downloads.. Now, that's what I call hypocrisy: everyone objects to these materials and wants *child friendly* webpages, fine, I'm all for that.. but remove these titles alltogether then. As a community.

[Kati Compton]

And there are quite a few other titles with thousands of downloads.. Now, that's what I call hypocrisy: everyone objects to these materials and wants *child friendly* webpages, fine, I'm all for that.. but remove these titles alltogether then. As a community.
Are you arguing that if we don't want kids (or sometimes ourselves) to see something, it shouldn't exist?

[JoeMoon]

YIPPIE!

FINALLY... Throw in my 2 cents as an apporval... I hope other industry monguls see that the porn has caused a group of loyal users away from their sites and potential revenue streams...

Joe...

[possmann]

ALL RIGHT!

Now if we could just have all of the adult web sites switch to something like .adult so we could easily filter all of that crap out life would be REALLY great!

[bjornkeizers]

Are you arguing that if we don't want kids (or sometimes ourselves) to see something, it shouldn't exist?

I'm not saying they shouldn't exist. If you want these kinds of materials, then by all means get them. It's your life, your Pocket PC, your responsibility.. not mine.

What I'm saying is: if everyone objects to these materials, [or at least claim they do] they should be removed from the website and put somewhere else. But I know that's just not going to happen because no matter how hard people object, they'll still buy these titles and companys will be more then happy to take your $$$

[JoeMoon]

Now if we could just have all of the adult web sites switch to something like .adult so we could easily filter all of that crap out life would be REALLY great!

I always wondered why adult sites did not have a .xxx ext... It would make filtering real easy!

Joe...

[MichaelZareli]

Ed, go to Google - make sure that the filter is on:)
Search for Strip Poker
Hereis what you get:
Bunnypoker - best free online strip poker game
Bunnypoker is a free online strip poker game with the best looking girls on
the web. ... Play online strip poker against the most beautiful bunnies. ...
www.EDITED.com/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

strip poker free !
strip poker free - online gambling strip poker free game, all strip poker free
games and internet strip poker free casino online. ... strip poker free ! ...
www.EDITED.com/ - 9k - Cached - Similar pages

Dont click on any search results as you may be exposed to something undesirable.... :)

[messaged edited by moderator at users request]

[MichaelZareli]

Sorry Forgot to mention - before you read the post above please swear that you are 18 years old or older. OItheresie please go to family friendly place such as www.Google.com - oh no - maybe not google...

[MichaelZareli]

Censorship - please delete the link to strippoker sites from the message above (since this forum is obviously accessible to kids)

[Kati Compton]

What I'm saying is: if everyone objects to these materials, [or at least claim they do] they should be removed from the website and put somewhere else. But I know that's just not going to happen because no matter how hard people object, they'll still buy these titles and companys will be more then happy to take your $$$
I was under the impression that this is exactly what the main Handango site did (though not all affiliates).

[Ed Hansberry]

Ed, go to Google - make sure that the filter is on:)
Search for Strip Poker
That is not what this is about. It is when you search for "Poker" and your search results at Pocket Gear include several strip poker games or addins. I searched for Poker at Google and Handango. Neither included strip poker in the first two pages of results. Go to PG and look at the NEW APPS page for the last 50 apps. You get barraged with new ladies for your strip poker games, animated gifs and all.

HUGE difference. Of course if you go to Google and search for porn you'll get porn, but in the past 2-3 years of heavy Google usage, I've never seen any thing even remotely suggestive on my search results. That is the point. If you look for it, you'll find it. If you aren't looking for it, you probably won't trip up on it. So kudos to Handango and Google for keeping this in a separate place, just like the video store does. :way to go:

[dh]

I always wondered why adult sites did not have a .xxx ext... It would make filtering real easy!Joe...

.xxx is a New.Net domain and seems to have caused them a few problems. Since most people can't see NN websites anyway, I guess it's not a big deal.

New.Net are selling .xxx domains but have reserved many that were never sold. (ie www.sex.xxx which is really www.sex.xxx.new.net is one of many reserved and never sold) I think they were hoping that they could sell these worthless sub-domains for a huge amount in the future.

Oh, I searched for "card games" at PocketGear and not a single adult game on the first search page.

[Jacob]

I have no problem with Handango selling strip poker, etc...

I think that kind of content shouldn't be just mixed in with all the other content that is already there.

Handango can still sell that and be a family friendly site - just put the porn in a secure location and require a log in in order to get it.

[bjornkeizers]

I was under the impression that this is exactly what the main Handango site did (though not all affiliates).

Yes, handango is removing all erotic titles from their main site, but this does not include their affiliates [such as their German branch] or the handango-powered shops.

And then there's the other sites such as Tucows, Pocketgear, etc. They should all remove these sorts of titles.. but they won't.

[MichaelZareli]

ok On similar subject - I just searched PocketPCThoughts for blackjackand found this
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=1576&highlight=blackjack

Can you add strict search filter to PocketPCThoughts so if I search for blackjack I do not get advertisiment for illigal products/services?

Obviously online GAMBLING (endorsed by Jason Dunn -
It was bound to happen - with the Pocket Casino software and a wireless Pocket PC, you can now place real bets and play a stakes game of blackjack. As if wireless data rates weren't bad enough, you can lose money in all new ways. Or, looking on the bright side of things, you might win enough to cover the cost of your connection and then some. I'm not much of a gambler, but this sure looks interesting... )
is not something I would like to have my children exposed to.

[Kati Compton]

Yes, handango is removing all erotic titles from their main site, but this does not include their affiliates [such as their German branch] or the handango-powered shops.

And then there's the other sites such as Tucows, Pocketgear, etc. They should all remove these sorts of titles.. but they won't.
Well, then concerned parents will do their shopping at the main Handango site with their kids.

[disconnected]

I guess Handango hasn't started removing the stuff yet. Under Today's new titles are Stripteaser Video Models Monica and Jennifer.

[Ed Hansberry]

is not something I would like to have my children exposed to.
Sure. We could block your IP for you. That would keep your kids from seeing it.

Do you have somethign PPC to disucss? all 8 of your posts going back to Dec 2002 deal entirely with sarcastic remarks on censorship. Take it up with EFF and the ACLU.

[fletch]

Personally i'd rather have my kids (if i had any) see porn than prolific, glorified violance and killing.
I bet you can still serach for/download violant shoot-em-ups on handango.

Aren't we getting a bit carried away with our British/North American-style christian hangups? In western continental europe this wouldn't be an issue.

Sorry, i don't want to offend but this is something that really bugs me. Loss of life seems so acceptable while a naked body is taboo?

What tangible adverse effect is there going to be if our kids see a few banners of naked people?

[karen]

...now if I could just get the scumbag developer that sold my handango-only e-mail address to porn spammers to drop dead via some handango feature, I'd be happy... :devilboy:

[Ed Hansberry]

What tangible adverse effect is there going to be if our kids see a few banners of naked people?
Numerous studies (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=effects+pornography+%28society+OR+family%29&btnG=Google+Search) have been done on the potential effects porn can have on a person and/or their families.

[fletch]

this is good stuff.

Its an interesting topic. While i cant dispute this as i havent done my own research, it strikes me that all the stated effects (quote) "rape, torture, murder" are far worse in the US than other western countries given its very conservative stance on porn.

Anyway, i guess this is wading way off topic. I do respect the other views of those in the forum :)

[Jacob]

Numerous studies (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=effects+pornography+%28society+OR+family%29&btnG=Google+Search) have been done on the potential effects porn can have on a person and/or their families.

The term "pornography" unfortunately has a very wide definition. I would bet most of the articles on that search are referring to the effect of more than just seeing one banner or one picture of a naked person.

This is not a public institution and it's their decision to withdraw that content - if you don't like it, don't buy there and let them know why!

[Gerard]

I'm as much opposed to obnoxious pornography of the sexually-oriented type as I am to that of the bloodletting-type, ie; Doom, Quake, and all the more recent first person shooter games. Our kid does not participate in these, and agrees, it seems, that she wants nothing to do with them. Death is a mystery she is getting to know via the odd bird, mouse, or bug she finds no longer breathing. There's occassionally some bit of violence in a rented video (she watches no broadcast television, nor do I any more), though we try to be careful to screen things before she sees them, or at least get a decent recommendation. She's 9 and a bit. The time will come when she's free to go out to movies all she wants, and then of course she'll make her own choices, and will no doubt see a lot of faked killing and hurting going on, and probably a fair dose of representations of sex, too. But for now, childhood is what she enjoys, relatively free of the dross of those businesses of the profiteers which seek to pervert the innocence in all of us.

These days it is more difficult than ever to filter for children, and hence my hesitation to give her her own email address. She writes through her mother's, and only sees the new mail after the nasty spam is deleted. Of course this too will end one day, when she wants privacy, but for now she's only too happy to share her correspondences with friends. I'd certainly not want her seeing the kind of garbage which comes to most of us via email harvesting software and illegally distributed address lists. Later. She can 'grow up' in that way later. Childhood should not be pissed away by greedy capitalists' desire to sell something, especially not things so dear in nature as sexuality and mortality.

[sullivanpt]

I am pleased to see Handango is offering a "child-safe" place for me to shop for software while I am at work. But

Do you have somethign PPC to disucss? all 8 of your posts going back to Dec 2002 deal entirely with sarcastic remarks on censorship. Take it up with EFF and the ACLU.

I am confused, how are Michael's comments not related to this thread? Isn't the title "Handango Filters Adult Software"?

In my opinion Handango==PPC, Filters~=ACLU.

I think if anyone should be getting flamed for bringing up ACLU/EFF issues on PPC thoughts, it should be Jason, who started the topic in the first place.

[JoeMoon]

Ed, go to Google - make sure that the filter is on:)
Search for Strip Poker
Hereis what you get:
[ MATERIAL DELETED ]

Michael -

I understand that some people find this a bit ridiculous... But allow me to share something... As an addict, I understand the difficult to control forces at work here... Think for a moment, your best friend is an alcoholic... Would you take him to a bar? Would you place a icy cold beer in front of him... Would you point out a billboard which conjures up memories of how sweet and cold and refreshing a beer can be?

I don't think you would...

If you had a friend who was a drug addict, and you saw how much it controlled him... how it consumed his finances and tore his family apart... would you talk to him about how great it feels to be high?

I don't think you would...

If you had a friend who openly struggled with sexual desires and pornorgaphy and you learned that he lost his job cause he was caught looking at soft porn while at work, would you send him links to sites with soft porn in them?

I don't think you would...

All of us have a weakness and some of us are able to acknowledge it. We are not proud of our weakness, just not niave to it. We understand that we can not on any level allow it to come near us...

I say all that, to say this... When you post links in your messages that may suggest any kind of porn or sexually explicit material, it can conjure up some difficult to control thoughts. I know you did not do that intentionally. Therefore, I am requesting that you be considerate and try to avoid mentioning the links and or materials that this discussion revolves around.

Whether in words, or in banners... Our creative minds are able to paint us very graphic picture that we then have to battle with and bring under control and into submission. In all honesty, sometimes we are successful at it - other times we are not...

I thank you in advance for your understanding...

Joe...

[JoeMoon]

Personally i'd rather have my kids (if i had any) see porn than prolific, glorified violance and killing.
I bet you can still serach for/download violant shoot-em-ups on handango.

Aren't we getting a bit carried away with our British/North American-style christian hangups? In western continental europe this wouldn't be an issue.

Sorry, i don't want to offend but this is something that really bugs me. Loss of life seems so acceptable while a naked body is taboo?

What tangible adverse effect is there going to be if our kids see a few banners of naked people?

I don't think any of us would choose violence over sexually explicit material. Both issues have their problems within society. Both seem to claim life... Whether it is sexual addiction that claims the soul, or violent acts that result in the loss of physical life. Both issues have an effect on the molding and shaping of the mind and the society.

I guess in your mind it would be better for a person to get so sexually aroused from pornography and go and rape someone than if someone got so juiced up with anger that he took his frustrations out on someone and killed them? Granted - these are extremes - but this is where things go if they are lead...

We can argue one point, or the other, all night long, but in the end I think we would both agree that both are wrong and have their issues that need to be addressed with a moral standard for the protection of another persons personal rites as a human being.

Joe...

[whydidnt]

I'm guessing that the filtering will last as long as it takes Handango to realize how much revenue they are losing as a result of it. As much as anyone hates to admit it, sex sells, it always has and always will. I applaud those of you who have decided to monitor what your children see, be it sex or violence. That is truly your responsibility, not the role of any private enterprise, web site. As a parent I feel it is more my responsbility to teach my child the difference between right and wrong. That way I don't have to stand over a shoulder every minute of every day, worrying about explicit stuff on a PPC site, or on TV.

I don't see why Handango or Pocket Gear can't allow users to enable or disable adult filering, like Google. Those who want the stuff can get it, those who don't - won't. However, one only has to look around to see the number of failed "family friendly" web services, web sites, television shows and television networks to realize that while a large number of people want to talk about supporting these kinds of endeavors, they aren't willing to put thier money where thier mouth is (at least not in any kind of substantial numbers.)

Whydidnt

[JoeMoon]

...I applaud those of you who have decided to monitor what your children see, be it sex or violence. That is truly your responsibility, not the role of any private enterprise, web site. As a parent I feel it is more my responsbility to teach my child the difference between right and wrong. That way I don't have to stand over a shoulder every minute of every day, worrying about explicit stuff on a PPC site, or on TV.

You are right. We adults should teach our children how to make correct choices. Hopefully, throughout their life they will reflect back to those moments and learn why things are right and why things are wrong. And your right, it should not be the role of society to do that for them...

BUT!

Sooner or later, these children become the society! And the way they were taught to determine what was right and what was wrong will be the same mindset they use in business and when governing an entity or political body or country.

And, if we understand that process, we must look back in time and see why are we different? Were we taught how to properily determine what is right and what is wrong? If so, why are so many things wrong in this world? And why are there so few people who will stand up for what is right? And why when people who stand up for what they feel is right get bashed into submission so that the wrong can continue?

It is one thing to do something wrong and not know that it was wrong. It is another to do something wrong and know it was wrong. And it is yet another thing to endorse what you know is wrong, as if it was right!

Joe...

[Jason Dunn]

I would like to point out though that this move and indeed, everyone's reaction to this is rather hypocritical: everybody's applauding Handango's move, but Handango will gladly sell these titles and take a big cut of the sale.. and they are obviously popular titles...

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "hypocrite" before yous start using it. :wink: The fact that some people are applauding the decision doesn't mean THEY are the ones downloading & buying the software as you're trying to indicate by quoting download stats. Neither does it mean that just because we don't want it in our face we're asking for it to be obliterated from the Internet - please re-read my original post.

[Jason Dunn]

Censorship - please delete the link to strippoker sites from the message above (since this forum is obviously accessible to kids)

Done. But remember that you can edit your own posts, so you control the power over your words. :wink:

[wocket]

At last these guys are moving this stuff from their front pages. It can be very embarrassing especially in work if you want to look at what new software is out and a load of strip poker games pop up. Pocketgear has been the worst in the past.

I am as open minded as the next person and hate censorship but you have to have the choice to see it or not. I choose not.

[Jason Dunn]

I am pleased to see Handango is offering a "child-safe" place for me to shop for software while I am at work. But

Do you have somethign PPC to disucss? all 8 of your posts going back to Dec 2002 deal entirely with sarcastic remarks on censorship. Take it up with EFF and the ACLU.

I am confused, how are Michael's comments not related to this thread? Isn't the title "Handango Filters Adult Software"?

In my opinion Handango==PPC, Filters~=ACLU.

I think if anyone should be getting flamed for bringing up ACLU/EFF issues on PPC thoughts, it should be Jason, who started the topic in the first place.

Ed is stating that because Michael's comments are smart-ass in nature - he's demanding that we install a filter on Pocket PC Thoughts because I once linked to an online gambling site. Look at Michael's posting history and it's pretty easy to see that anything involving censorship really pushes his buttons.

[Jacob]

It is one thing to do something wrong and not know that it was wrong. It is another to do something wrong and know it was wrong. And it is yet another thing to endorse what you know is wrong, as if it was right!

Joe...

I don't think he's endorsing something that he knows "is wrong, as if it was right!" .

I don't see how it's a bad thing for Handango simply take the content into a section that is filtered - and sell it to adults who do want it.

I agree that the banners shouldn't be for porn if they want the site to be friendly - or maybe only enable those banners if you are in the "porn" section?

I don't have any interest in downloading porn for my pocketpc and when I search for software on Handango, I would rather not see it since sometimes I do so at work. I simply say that they were justified in at the very least making it a conscious choice to get that kind of content or not.

[Gerard]

As a parent I feel it is more my responsbility to teach my child the difference between right and wrong. That way I don't have to stand over a shoulder every minute of every day, worrying about explicit stuff on a PPC site, or on TV.

That's not an either/or proposition. Both are, in my way of seeing it, necessary these days. The web, television, media in general offer easier access to abusive, demoralising materials than ever before in human history. If children are to be prepared, and yet whole and true to their very own natures, it becomes increasingly imperative that we do our jobs very well. Protecting them from seeing the 'reality' being generated for profit is obviously a losing battle, as sooner or later they will find themselves being exposed to it. I happen to choose later, for much of this material. I'd rather our little one have the best opportunity possible to strengthen her own moral standards, based on all the good data I can offer in the form of books, advice, and healthy experiences, so that when the day comes that she is exposed to some filth that she is ready to defend against it.

The crux of the problem seems to be that these peddlars of smut of every sort are getting damned good at it. Whether on Handango, Google, or on television and in movies. Newspapers are full of it these days! In our best local paper, the Georgia Straight (which has seen better days, but they try), the last 8 to 10 pages are full of sexually oriented sales and articles. Openly advertising every 'service' imaginable, it is obvious that our girl is soon going to read some things which will demand some answers. She won't content herself with just Harry Potter and the like forever. So for a couple of years, we've been teaching her the theoretical side of sex, when as a great sex ed. teacher says 'teachable moments' happen along. She dictates her comfort level with this information. And now with grade 4 approaching, she says she can't wait for grade 5, because that's when they teach the first bits of sex stuff at Waldorf schools. She wants to study first, to know enough to keep up with the teacher. Enthusiasm for learning is inherent in children. But I'd not want to squash any part of that in her by exposure too soon to the dark side of human nature, where lust and objectification reign over kinder, more honest emotions. Kids don't need lust. Adults don't either, really, at least not in the fashion that it is being sold by the billions of dollars every year (or is it trillions?).

We could all do with some growing up, or at least most of us could. There are some perfectly well-adjusted and loving people in the world, somewhere.... I just haven't run into any yet. ;) Still, no harm in trying. And there's lots of harm waiting in the corners if we don't try.

[aim-gert]

I rarely participate in these debates, but this time...
I tried hard, really hard to understand why some people are offended by our Strippoker,stripteaser and other games. And even, why do people categorise it as "porn". Most people on this board are well educated, quit intelligent, open for new technologies, but nevertheless, taking an objective point of view on this matter seems to be hard. The social principles seem to dominate the clear thinking. regarding the banners on pocketgear, You'll never see any nudity !!, you'll see more offensive nudity in a bikini magazine then in our banners, I can't talk for others though, as I 'm aware that there are others who are selling more offensive material, but you'll hardly see them on the pocketgear homepage. Simply that the people at pocketgear do realise that our products can be categorised as "soft-erotic", it's far from straight "porn".
Even the demo version will show no nudity. And why it shows up so often when you're searching for other card games,etc... It's simply because it's quit populair. (the popular ones show up at the top of the list)To give you some figures, +/-80% of our userbase are US customers. the demo's of the erotic titles generate about 60 GB traffic monthly, from our sites, not talking about the downloads that go through pocketgear, Handango or others... Do you really think all these people went on a search to get strippoker, no... they just saw it through a banner and probably thought , hey this is fun...
You can't deny that there's intrest in our products, so who has the right of judging that you won't allow people to download this. I love the Us mentalety that whenever they don't like you they tell you straight in the face, if they believe in something they really claim their position, but in this matter... it's public ignorence, but private must haves. The ironic part is that so many us based video production companys contact us if we're intrested in their content for use in our games, but after evaluating in our opinion it's to offensive. In the early days when Handango had no filters built in our strippoker was number 1 selling product for months,then we were filtered, never show up in new lists, never in updated lists, never featured and still are among the top 5 best selling titles(don't bother, you'll never get this officialy told), So why still ignore it.... the situation nowadays is, it won't show up on Handango homepage, although they're still allow us to use their commerce engine, pure cash generator, and believe me, I tried several times , offered them solutions, adult check, netnanny aproval,etc... Not open for discussion, it's their right, but afterall, take an objective point and judge who's the bad guy here, he who is ignoring that he's selling it or we. I thought the internet opened new markets for us but never thought the difference in culture would be that big. To give you an idea about european situation. A major carrier in Europe will be selling Strippoker in regular retail (cd distribution) in his national stores around the country. Can you imagine a US carrier doing such :-)... I do realise that with this statement I won't change your opinion and neither do I want to attack someone personaly here but just wanted to give you a view from our point. So, take a step back and create an open objective opinion. And for those who thought strippoker is "porn", give me a chance to convince you of the opposite,sent me a private email and I'll sent you a copy for free.
thank you for taking your time to read my post.

Gert
AIM Productions
[email protected]

[Ed Hansberry]

You'll never see any nudity !!, you'll see more offensive nudity in a bikini magazine then in our banners
Most of us don't whip out bikini mags in front of small children or at the office either.

You can't deny that there's intrest in our products, so who has the right of judging that you won't allow people to download this.
Uhm... I don't recall a single post that recommended banning your product or prohibiting the downloads. Book stores keep "soft erotic" materials out of the kids sections, and all other sections for that matter in their own space. So do the video stores. Why should online software vendors be any different?

[Jason Dunn]

You can't deny that there's intrest in our products, so who has the right of judging that you won't allow people to download this.

No one is arguing there's a market for your product. No one is arguing that your product should be banned from being downloaded. I personally would have been happy enough to see Handango put it in an adult section with a warning, and leave it at that (just like most video stores and book stores do). They chose something more drastic, which is their right, just as it's your right to find the best way to sell your product. It's also my right to applaud Handango for their actions, and for you to complain. Isn't it great how we all have these rights? :lol:

[fletch]

Should something be banned (or censored) because it is offensive to US or British (or any specific) cultures??

Like I said before, nudity is no big deal in western european cultures. And the don't appear to have the adverse symptoms of pornography (widely defined) that these apparent studies suggest.

Thai people are offended by displaying the soles of the feet. Should we ban this on the internet as well? I know its a silly argument, but sometimes I just wish people could sometimes consider things from a different cultural perspective.

[Gerard]

The product, Strip Poker for PPC, is offensive. Relative to hardcore pornography, or even 'adult erotica' as offered on pay TV channels, it is likely to be less offensive. Does that relationship make it also acceptable for small children?

My little one has now begun using my old Casio EG-800 as her own, and within about 6 months I fully expect her to be almost completely independent of my tech support for all but the most difficult situations. Sooner or later she'll have a modem, too. Currently, she sometimes goes to HomeStarRunner for the games and cartoons using our notebook PC, so she's already online in a limited way, and only under our supervision. (That's a given, as she is too young to leave alone in the house, so supervision is inherent to our situation for the next few years at least.) It is likely that with the Casio in hand, she'll want new games once in a while. Going to PocketGamer or Handango are natural choices to begin a search for games. If she's to participate in the search, that is, if she's to have the right to choose what games she does and does not want, then being right there looking at the screen is essential. She already likes computer-based card games quite a lot, so it's not a stretch at all to imagine she'll soon want to look around for more of these. Would you want your daughter, not yet 10 years old, finding Pocket Strip Poker?

The images I have seen plastered all over Handango and other sites advertising your product are plainly demeaning to women. They are not in good taste, period. These are not artful, have no socially redeeming properties, and frankly do not meet the standards of the majority of the web community. Just because you have sold a lot of copies does not give you nor Handango the right to assault everyone's eyes with such garbage. While I appreciate that marketers almost universally assume that they have some sort of 'right' to sell whatever will make a profit, this goes nowhere in proving your right to spam everyone with it.
Further, offers to send out free copies strike me as being a direct equivalent of s drug pusher offering some heroin or crack, 'just to try, just a taste, come on, it's free...' Porn is porn is porn, whether in a sleazy car ad or actually inside a porn theatre. Take some responsibility for your actions, and recognise that there should be limits where the blatant objectification of the female body is the product, along with the longer-term side effects which inevitably harm the chances for respectful relationships between the sexes.

[aim-gert]

I might be wrong but in regular snail mail advertisement is there never some bikinni or underwear advertisement ? just curious to know, as I think keeping this away from kids eyes isn't easy ...

I can agree in some way with your opinion that adult content must be catogorised, I asked this many times at Handango althoug that wasn't an option. I once proposed them the folowing, if a user searches for example on" strippoker" , tell them Handango is no longer supporting these content, but others are, let this be controled by net nanny,cyperpatrol, surfwatch, safe surf,etc... this would create a quit solid solution , bot... nope, not an option.

[JoeMoon]

So, take a step back and create an open objective opinion. And for those who thought strippoker is "porn", give me a chance to convince you of the opposite...

First off, I will be bold enough to stand up admit it. I took the lie and the bait that soft porn was innocent. 15 to 20 years later, I can tell you that I became massively addicted to porn, thats bikini porn, lingere, soft porn, hard porn, talking porn - you name it - I was after it. Since then, I have determined myself to stay away, to become "Renewed" in my thinking. I admit that I am still, at times, easily enticed with just a smile or something suggestive from a woman who looks, acts, speaks and types erotically. And what may seem mild to you, sets me off in a mad search for satisfaction and gratification. Am I proud? NO not at all, sometimes when I look into my wifes innocent eyes I become enormously guilt ridden from my compulsive behavior. Am I weak - YES! And I can not tell you the hours I wasted scanning the internet all because my imagination was stimulated by a banner ad at Pocket Gear when I was searching for application to be more productive.

So, nothing personal... But that innocent crap does not fly. I became addicted to fantasies and such years and years ago. And as my hunger for more became greater and greater, the search for more and more satisfying material consumed me.

It is not innocent. It is not pure and it is not easy to walk away from. I agree that sex sells. It sells and sells and sells. At least it appears that way to the seller... To the buyer... It steals and steals and steals... It has stolen my ability to look upon a woman with pure eyes... It has stolen my ability to think of a girl as a human being...

Come on people - let's be honest here... The only way you approve of this kind of stuff is if your getting off to it, or it is lining your pockets. There is no one that I know of who would allow someone to look upon their wife, daughter or sister with lustful eyes and a lustful heart. These woman you lust for are wifes, daughters and sisters to someone else. Regardless of them... I am telling you that this stuff is highly addictive and highly difficult to shake from.

As for the other countries... I agree that they see things differently... But would you prefer to live and raise a family in the United States of America or around the corner from the Moulin Rouge in France? Where would you prefer you child run and play and learn the facts of life?

If you want to sell it - sell it in sections and sites where those who want it can get it. Not where those who are TRYING to live a clean life can easily stumbled across it. I am not judging anyone who buys it, uses it, or sells it. I was once a buyer and user myself... I know the arguments on both sides. I just don't want to be tempted and we are simply asking you not to TEMPT US!

Joe...

[fletch]

But would you prefer to live and raise a family in the United States of America or around the corner from the Moulin Rouge in France? Where would you prefer you child run and play and learn the facts of life?


Well its just a personal opinion but I would definately choose the latter. The facts of life are different (at least by perspective) in France than they are in the US.

In France I suspect my child would grow up to sanctify human life, be passionate and caring towards others - and on the negative be a raving socialist!!!:)

Again, who dictates morals. The internet is supposed to be a free and liberal society.

[David C]

Shoot, I like porn. I love looking at naked girls on the internet. I'm also in my 20's and I like hot chicks. I have no problem seeing beer ads with hot half-naked girls.

But, it doesn't mean that I want to look at porn everyday. I don't want to get caught with adult content on the screen at work, because I don't look at porn at work.

I do not want any porn to be banned off the internet. But I also don't want to stumble on porn when I'm not looking for porn. I also think it's good that a web site separate adult content from kids-friendly content.

Yes, the discretion is up to the viewer. But you do have to give them a choice and a fair warning.

At some point in my life, my hormones are going to cool, and I will probably have kids. That is why I rather advocate a clear separation between adult contents and kids friendly contents.

[Kaber]

You'll never see any nudity !!, you'll see more offensive nudity in a bikini magazine then in our banners
Most of us don't whip out bikini mags in front of small children or at the office either.

Huh? Sometimes Ed, you don't even listen. You just look for the parts you can rebutt.

If customers want it taken down, it will be taken down. If it makes money they will sell it in the back room. It IS the same as a retail store in that respect, and we see the changes happening now. Jason even mentioned that Handango had the plans in the works before he asked.

What scares me is that this is a moral issue, and often in this forum Jason's morals are defended while others are dismissed out-of-hand.

Many of you are throwing the word "PORN" around like you know what you are talking about, when you really mean anything YOU (or your boss) may find sexually explicit.

Many people hardly notice those adds and don't consider them anything like pornography. They don't grab our attention because we do not find it morally objectionable to view a human being naked in a sexual situation.

On the other hand, a game about lynching Saddam Hussein (http://handango.com/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=1&jid=51DC26E952E88B4EB86FXCDE5163DFF4&productId=79802&optionId=1_2_2&productType=2&catalog=30&txtSearch=saddam&sectionId=0&platformId=2) is okay, right? Seeing as in a real store the Delta Force Combat action figure with C-4 explosive charge and realistic battle damage is sold next to the Malibu Stacey got Pregnant doll.

[JoeMoon]

Shoot, I like porn. I love looking at naked girls on the internet. I'm also in my 20's and I like hot chicks. I have no problem seeing beer ads with hot half-naked girls.

At some point in my life, my hormones are going to cool, and I will probably have kids. That is why I rather advocate a clear separation between adult contents and kids friendly contents.

Ahhhh... The double standard... Nice!

[Kati Compton]

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "hypocrite" before yous start using it. :wink: The fact that some people are applauding the decision doesn't mean THEY are the ones downloading & buying the software as you're trying to indicate by quoting download stats.
I don't see anything hypocritical with an adult buying/downloading porn but not wanting their kids to be exposed to it. What an adult can deal with and what a child can deal with are very different.

[Gerard]

Hey man, don't resign yourself to an early death hormone-wise. I suppose yours may fade, but at 41 I can tell you for certain that mine haven't 'cooled' even a little bit since I was a teenager. I kinda wish they would at times, because women are very, very distracting.

But I'll stay happy with the real thing. The other, well, it just ain't satisfying, ya know? Porn makes me sad. There is no real profit in it, just the money sort. Real profit is what lifts us up, makes us better people. Enjoying beauty is not a problem. It's the attempts at subverting or stealing it that hurt people.

[jeff]

You'll never see any nudity !!, you'll see more offensive nudity in a bikini magazine then in our banners, I can't talk for others though, as I 'm aware that there are others who are selling more offensive material, but you'll hardly see them on the pocketgear homepage.

If this is true, what's the difference between it and Jason's bikini clad Leprechaun girl picture from St. Patty's Day? I know nobody wants that ridiculous discussion brought up again, but it seems like very much the same thing.

[js415]

Oh Boy 8O

[Thinkingmandavid]

I know everyone has strong feelings or if you want to call it an opinion about it. Like politics and religion, there are various sides and if you arent on one then sometimes the other sides feel you are wrong, or if you are in a place of balance in yourself, life, etc, then others feel you are in a double standard.
If he likes porn but knows in the future he will have children, so he wants it filtered, then that is ok. If he isnt meeting your standard or mine, it doesnt make it wrong.
This began for Handango removing it from the front which is great. I agree it should be in a special section with some type of age check. I know aim is making business and i have no problem with that. As long as children are being protected it is great. More of us should think in balance and not as accusers nor judges. And certainly none of us are here to be God nor play God. To vote, have rights, to agree, disagree, and yet still go on with our lives is cool.
The point is that a site selling palm,ppc, and Symbian software is being careful about children visiting the site since they own pda's as well. Aim sells it and there is filtering great. OUr children will be safer and we can sit with them at the computer and search for software titles without having to wonder or worry about what will pop up for them to see.
If this is a forum, the let Michael type what he does, it some how gets tied in to pps or pda's. How many of us have gone off topic. It may be easy to push his buttons, is that what you are trying to do?

[Jerry Raia]

I was on Pocket Gear looking for a poker game and 90% of them were strip poker, one after another. I finally gave up.


Where did you happen to find a ral poker game? Not the video poker stuff, but real hold'em etc...
Just Curious

Thanks
Thanos

I never did, I gave up.

[ctmagnus]

I read a figure a few years ago that ~63% of the "documented" Internet consisted of pornography-related sites. I'll be glad to see that number decrease as much as possible, but at the same time I have to say "to each his own."

[kfluet]

While I agree that nasty hardcore popup ads are totally evil, I have to say that I never found anything on Handango or PocketGear to be offensive. Yes, they sell a stupid strip poker game, but the advert graphics are never worse than what you see at the swimming pool.

If my kid saw that he would probably ask what strip poker is and I could have an age-appropriate conversation with him about sex. Hiding your kid from sex so that s/he has to figure it all out on his own--and s/he will--is a very bad idea if you want to instill values.

If you want to protect your children from bad things, I really think you should be concentrating on reducing the violence in his or her diet rather than seeing the perfectly normal naked human body.

So many people shock me when they think their kid seeing scantily clad woman is the end of the world and yet they think nothing when their kid runs around outside with a toy gun playing "kill the Iraqis".

[beq]

Sorry if has been discussed.. I was just wondering, isn't Handango owned or run by a female executive?

It isn't a related issue I know, don't mind me :)

[Jason Dunn]

...but sometimes I just wish people could sometimes consider things from a different cultural perspective.

I agree completely! Handango is based out of Texas, which is in the United States. So don't go forcing your cultural values on them, ok? :wink: (that sword cuts both ways you see...)

[Jason Dunn]

If customers want it taken down, it will be taken down. If it makes money they will sell it in the back room.

You cannot access this software at all from Handango.com - so are you suggesting this wasn't making money for Handango? I seriously doubt that's true - I'm quite sure it WAS making them money. So what is behind their decision then? A desire to be "family friendly", which I'm sure had something to do with morality. Contrary to your cynical beliefs, not everything is about money - sometimes morality is more important. For instance, I'm sure I could make a few grand selling everyone's email address in our system. Would I? No way! The immorality of taking private information and selling it for profit outweighs any profit that might be made. Let me repeat: not everything is about money.

If you're going to demand that everyone respect the unique morality of everyone else, you have to do the same - this is a decision Handango made, not one you made, and you should accept that they're doing what they feel is right. It's not like they're forcing the developer to go out of business - they're just saying "Please sell your good elsewhere." What's the big deal?

[lurch]

What scares me is that this is a moral issue, and often in this forum Jason's morals are defended while others are dismissed out-of-hand.
but at the same time I have to say "to each his own."
Preface: I'm not picking on the two people I quoted, per se.

Kaber's right, this is a moral issue. The problem here with everybody's arguments (generally speaking) is "moral relativism". "What's right for me isn't necessarily right for you" or "What's wrong for me might not be wrong for you".
This just simply isn't right!! Here's an unpopular "opinion": There is a clearly defined right and wrong. Yes, some are grey, but many if not most are not. And no, these clearly defined answers are not "cultural specific" -- they are universal (in the broadest sense of the word).
The point is, there is a right and there is a wrong. You can claim all you want that each choses for their own, but the real choice is not what to call right and wrong, but rather whether to obey the right or disobey and follow the wrong.

We must each choose this -- to do what is right, or to do what is wrong.. that's the essense of free will. Today people want to "feel good" and so say "what's 'wrong' is now right."

Here is (a small fraction of) the authority I reference in the matter of "adult content":

Exodus 20:14 "You shall not commit adultery."
Matthew 5:27-28 "You have heard that it was said, 'Do not commit adultery.' But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
1 Corinthians 10:23-24 "'Everything is permissible'--but not everything is beneficial. 'Everything is permissible'--but not everything is constructive. Nobody should seek his own good, but the good of others."
1 Corinthians 10:32 "Do not cause anyone to stumble, whether Jews, Greeks, or the church of God"
Galatians 5:13-14 "You, my brothers, (Christians) were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. The entire law is summed up in a single command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'"
Ephesians 4:17-5:5 (snipped somewhat for brevity's sake) ".. you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. ... Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, with a continual lust for more. ... You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; to be made new in the attitude of your minds; and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness. ... But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God's holy people. ... For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person--such a man is an idolater--has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God."
2 Corinthians 5:10 "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done in the body, whether good or bad." (this is regarding moral relativism -- this clearly shows that some things are good, and some things are bad... absolutely)


And finally,
Joshua 24:15b "But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord."
That is the choice I make, and the choice my household will make.

[Jason Dunn]

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "hypocrite" before yous start using it. :wink: The fact that some people are applauding the decision doesn't mean THEY are the ones downloading & buying the software as you're trying to indicate by quoting download stats.
I don't see anything hypocritical with an adult buying/downloading porn but not wanting their kids to be exposed to it. What an adult can deal with and what a child can deal with are very different.

Re-read the post I was quoting from. He was saying it was hypocritical for us to be happy about this when Strip Poker was downloaded 8000+ times - as if the people applauding this decision (myself included) had downloaded it. It was hideously flawed logic, and him using the word hypocrite was badly misapplied.

I agree that adults can do things themselves that they wouldn't neccesarily want their children exposed to - I'm not suggesting that this software shouldn't be made available to adults who want it. I'm simply saying that the standards the online software stories have been following for the past three years fly in the face of all the logic that has been learned in the retail market: make it available to adults, not to children.

[Jason Dunn]

You'll never see any nudity !!, you'll see more offensive nudity in a bikini magazine then in our banners, I can't talk for others though, as I 'm aware that there are others who are selling more offensive material, but you'll hardly see them on the pocketgear homepage.

If this is true, what's the difference between it and Jason's bikini clad Leprechaun girl picture from St. Patty's Day? I know nobody wants that ridiculous discussion brought up again, but it seems like very much the same thing.

8O Oh man, did you have to bring that up?? :eek:

It's a good point though I suppose - everyone's threshold of what is acceptable is different. For myself, my wife, and my friends who saw that image, it didn't exceed our threshold for what we considered inappropriate. As was evidenced by the rather, ah, lively discussion that ensued, some people did feel it was inappropriate. There's no easy way to know what that line is - I was genuinely shocked when certain people responded the way they did...I really had no clue. 8O

In the case of Handango, I think it might have been "ok" in the beginning for them to sell the erotic software - it obviously didn't cross any line for them (I'm making an assumption here that might be wrong). I don't know if you've noticed or not, but lately a fair amount of the new "software" listings had been hard-core XXX videos (yes, I read the descriptions). So somewhere along the way, maybe Handango's treshhold was crossed and they just said "No more adult content - it's either all or nothing, and we don't like what we're seeing from the all category..."

Just me speculating. :wink:

[Jason Dunn]

I read a figure a few years ago that ~63% of the "documented" Internet consisted of pornography-related sites. I'll be glad to see that number decrease as much as possible, but at the same time I have to say "to each his own."

Well, if it makes anyone feel any better, I haven't registered "Porn Thoughts", and have no plans to. :rotfl:

[MichaelZareli]

Yes Handango has definitely changed to family friendly :)

If you are over 18 years of age then follow one of the links below to see for yourself :)

note that all of the adult content below IS BEING HOSTED and SOLD by Handango

http://www.handango.com/german/PlatformProductDetail.jsp?siteId=8&jid=CFE55FAEFF7XX2E9X76A692A9782918F&platformId=2&productType=2&productId=56564&sectionId=0&catalog=30

or

http://www.handango.com/mobileplanet-fr/PlatformSearch.jsp?siteId=136&jid=CFE55FAEFF7XX2E9X76A692A9782918F&platformId=2&txtSearch=adult&optionId=1_2_2

I think I do not UNDERSTAND something here.

[Jacob]

This just simply isn't right!! Here's an unpopular "opinion": There is a clearly defined right and wrong. Yes, some are grey, but many if not most are not. And no, these clearly defined answers are not "cultural specific" -- they are universal (in the broadest sense of the word).
The point is, there is a right and there is a wrong. You can claim all you want that each choses for their own, but the real choice is not what to call right and wrong, but rather whether to obey the right or disobey and follow the wrong.

We must each choose this -- to do what is right, or to do what is wrong.. that's the essense of free will. Today people want to "feel good" and so say "what's 'wrong' is now right."

Here is (a small fraction of) the authority I reference in the matter of "adult content":


So, in your belief system(which is subjective by nature) your opinion(which is subjective by nature) this is objective? Interesting - something subjecting making it objective.

Your authority isn't everyone's authority, I know you're going to say that it is and you're free to believe that. I'm also free to say that your authority is not mine.

Religion isn't equivalent to morality.

[Kaber]

If customers want it taken down, it will be taken down. If it makes money they will sell it in the back room.

You cannot access this software at all from Handango.com - so are you suggesting this wasn't making money for Handango? I seriously doubt that's true - I'm quite sure it WAS making them money. So what is behind their decision then? A desire to be "family friendly", which I'm sure had something to do with morality. Contrary to your cynical beliefs, not everything is about money - sometimes morality is more important. For instance, I'm sure I could make a few grand selling everyone's email address in our system. Would I? No way! The immorality of taking private information and selling it for profit outweighs any profit that might be made. Let me repeat: not everything is about money.

If you're going to demand that everyone respect the unique morality of everyone else, you have to do the same - this is a decision Handango made, not one you made, and you should accept that they're doing what they feel is right. It's not like they're forcing the developer to go out of business - they're just saying "Please sell your good elsewhere." What's the big deal?


First off, I applaude their decision, but they should have had adult offerings in a seperate area from the beginning.

Second, the article you linked to states, "the company's technology remains powering a large number of affiliates who continue to offer such software - as does Handango's own branch in Germany".

So yes, in a way they are selling it in the back room.

Jason, I didn't disrespect anyone, and I made no demands.

[Kati Compton]

Re-read the post I was quoting from. He was saying it was hypocritical for us to be happy about this when Strip Poker was downloaded 8000+ times - as if the people applauding this decision (myself included) had downloaded it. It was hideously flawed logic, and him using the word hypocrite was badly misapplied.
Sorry - should have quoted more. I was trying to supplement your statement, not disagree.

[MichaelZareli]

"Let me repeat: not everything is about money. " yes there are other issues here such as freedom of speach

[lurch]

So, in your belief system(which is subjective by nature) your opinion(which is subjective by nature) this is objective? Interesting - something subjecting making it objective.
Neither my belief system, nor my opinion made it objective -- the absolute Word of God made it objective... hence my quoting of it (otherwise my post would've been simply subjective)

Your authority isn't everyone's authority, I know you're going to say that it is and you're free to believe that. I'm also free to say that your authority is not mine.
Correct.

Religion isn't equivalent to morality.
I'm looking forward to an explanation of this statement... I haven't processed it enough yet to agree or disagree, but please tell me how you got here?

BUT, if this takes the post off topic, please start it in the OT section... don't want to purposefully de-rail a thread... :) (again)

[Jason Dunn]

I think I do not UNDERSTAND something here.

Please go re-read my post, and the infoSync article I linked to. Handango.com is no longer showing these titles, but some of their subsiduaries in other countries, and some partner stores have the choice of whether or not they want to show them. If we wanted to, we could show the adult titles on our Handango co-branded store (we won't). Handango is giving other stores the choice - and choice is good, right? How can you possible criticise them for this?

There's nothing surprising here other than the fact that you're not reading before commenting. :wink:

[DerekTheGeek]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.

I suggest you read what Lurch wrote. He is right on the money. Be careful what you open your mind to. If you think it could never happen to you then you are a fool.

[Jason Dunn]

"Let me repeat: not everything is about money. " yes there are other issues here such as freedom of speach

Freedom of speech is not a right you can apply to a Web site that you do not own. You have no freedom of speech while standing on someone elses' front lawn - it's not your property. If I wanted to shut this site down tomorrow, or ban you from posting, I could do so and not violate your "freedom of speech". You have no freedoms here, nor any rights - I'm paying the bill for this site, and it's my property.

The above may sound heavy-handed, even draconian, but it's the truth - people are VERY confused when it comes to what true freedoms really are. If you contacted me about wanting to sell your XXX video game on the front page of my site, and I said no, I'm not violating your freedom of speech - I'm simply controlling what I want on my site. Of course I want everyone to visit, post, talk, even disagree - but to claim that you have a "right" to do so is silly. Pocket PC Thoughts exists because I love the site, love the community, and love what it is - but to say that I have to provide a platform from which you can speak is just silly.

If Best Buy decided one day they didn't want to carry Sony products, that's their right to do so - Sony doesn't have the "right" to be in that store.

Give it some thought Michael - this is not a issue of freedom of speech, and it's ignorant in the extreme to claim it is.

[Jason Dunn]

Re-read the post I was quoting from. He was saying it was hypocritical for us to be happy about this when Strip Poker was downloaded 8000+ times - as if the people applauding this decision (myself included) had downloaded it. It was hideously flawed logic, and him using the word hypocrite was badly misapplied.
Sorry - should have quoted more. I was trying to supplement your statement, not disagree.

Oh, ok. :D Silly Internet communications... :wink:

[Kati Compton]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.
One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

[MichaelZareli]

"A desire to be "family friendly", which I'm sure had something to do with morality. Contrary to your cynical beliefs, not everything is about money - sometimes morality is more important. For instance,"

Jason, I read the posts

The software is listed for example on http://www.handango.com/german/ Handango Deutchland

Is it OK then for German kids to see this software?

I guess you should change "I wanted to give my very public, and very supportive, endorsement of Handango's recent decision to filter out all adult software from their software catalog"

to "I wanted to give my very public, and very supportive, endorsement of Handango's recent decision to filter out all adult software from SOME of their software catalogs"

This will be more accurate.

[Kaber]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.
One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

Excellent point.

[lurch]

One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.
Absolutely, addiction to pornography (of any sort) is simply a symptom, not a cause. It's a symptom of the state we are ALL in!! It's a fallen world... I don't know a single person who would argue (realistically) that the world is perfect. :)
It's a symptom of the sinful nature of man. So yes, maybe he was going to do those terrible things anyway, but I would argue that he wouldn't have done them any more than you or I would've done them. It appears (and I haven't viewed the interview) that pornography was the first step down a dark road that appeared well lit at first (i.e. pornography doesn't hurt anybody, so it's okay).

[Jeff Rutledge]

I think the main issue is not censorship or morality or culture. It's about protecting children. I think everyone can get behind that. The bottom line is that I believe every culture wishes to protect their children from pornographic images. It's true that the definition of pornography differs from culture-to-culture and parent-to-parent.

Handango, by making this move, is endorsing the idea that parents should be given the opportunity to cover this stuff with their children in their way. They're deciding to err on the side of caution and I say well done.

No one is saying they shouldn't be able to offer whatever products they wish. We're just happy to see them doing it responsibly.

[Weyoun6]

I think this is a good Idea. I was frankly getting tired of wading through all that junk just to buy some software.

[bjornkeizers]

I think you need to look up the definition of the word "hypocrite" before yous start using it. :wink:


hy·poc·ri·sy

-The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
-An act or instance of such falseness.


The fact that some people are applauding the decision doesn't mean THEY are the ones downloading & buying the software as you're trying to indicate by quoting download stats.

If I asked you to your face, did you download and/or buy a copy of Strip Blackjack or any other titles, would you answer me truthfully? Would *any person* who downloaded a copy of those kinds of materials give me an honest answer? I honestly don't think so. If I asked all those tens of thousands of people who downloaded these titles if they'd like them removed to make the site "child friendly" of course everyone would say yes, because they don't want to admit it that they downloaded and/or bought these titles.

[bjornkeizers]

8O Oh man, did you have to bring that up?? :eek:


Ohh yes!! Now we remember!

[bjornkeizers]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.


These are the same kinds of crap studys that they did regarding violence in video games and the effects it had on children .. not to mention the link everyone wants between violent games and school shootings.

If you're already a psychopath like Ted Bundy or the kids that did those school shootings, then you're drawn to these materials. These games and that porn didn't make them do those things, they wanted to do it themselves.

It's a symptom, not a cause.

[JoeMoon]

I don't see anything hypocritical with an adult buying/downloading porn but not wanting their kids to be exposed to it. What an adult can deal with and what a child can deal with are very different.

Don't you understand that what a child learns in their younger years is the foundation for all their adult life? And most would agree that we, as adults have somewhat modeled our idiologies, morals, beliefs, habits, traditions and what-not from what we learned, observed from our parents? What kind of an example do we set for our youth if we say one thing and do another? Do we then wonder why children are so confused and have such difficulty making good decisions? Do we then scratch our heads when a youth goes bizerk and breaks down in some kind of fit? Do we then stand around and say, "I don't know where we went wrong?"

Come 'on! I admit, drugs, alcohol, sex, etc can be some-what fulfilling at times. But let's be honest to ourselves, it rarely fulfills that void that we so desperately seek to have filled in our lives. The high/climax is only for a moment - and then we are again left with that empty feeling. Admit it... Be honest... I was there... I know what it is like...

What do you communicate to a child when they observe that getting drunk is something parents do? What are you saying to a child when you observe woman naked, but tell them they can't observe it? Don't they then do the same - looking for that "experience" they see the adults doing. They do not conciously walk around saying, "Hey, I want to be like the adults - so let's do what the adults do". Rather, they observe and copy. The pattern repeats. and repeats... and repeats...

I am sure no parent reading this says, "I want to show my kids the most hopeless way in life. I want to show them how to get so screwed up on drugs, drinking and pornography." You talk to any parent/adult and they will all like to raise their child the best way they can. But how can they if what they learned from their parents/society was faulty? How do you know what is faulty unless you know what is better? How can you know what is better unless your willing to seek out something better.

People, you have to want it to be better. You have to want it better for your children. And you have to be willing to sacrafice selfish desires so that they can learn self control and morally sound behavior.

Joe...

[Jacob]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.
One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

Ted Bundy was notorious for doing ANYTHING to draw attention to himself - including blaming porn. Most who know a lot about him don't believe that his blaming of porn for his crimes is anything but such a tactic.

[Sunnyone]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.
One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

Kati, I agree with you 100%. It's the hindsight issue - people inherently want to find an explanation for behavior like Bundy's. The fact is that there is no easy explanation for why one person reacts/behaves in a certain way. But if we can find an explanation, then it won't happen to us our to our loved ones, right?

[JoeMoon]

...If my kid saw that he would probably ask what strip poker is and I could have an age-appropriate conversation with him about sex. Hiding your kid from sex so that s/he has to figure it all out on his own--and s/he will--is a very bad idea if you want to instill values.

So would the conversation go something like this, "... When a woman looks this hot, and you see her wearing pretty close to nothing, you'll begin to fantasize about her. You'll mind will wander around about places and positions and things like that... You'll begin to get aroused and wish she was near you... touching you... etc... etc... etc..."

I seriously doubt that would be your sex education lecture to your kid...If you normal, you would probably start with something along the lines of, "When you find a girl that you really, really love... One where you would lay down your life for her..." And then hopefully, you'll introduce the concept of eternal commitment and then making love to her in the form of having sexual intimacy...

Joe...

[Kati Compton]

And most would agree that we, as adults have somewhat modeled our idiologies, morals, beliefs, habits, traditions and what-not from what we learned, observed from our parents?
Sure. And when I have kids I hope they learn that some things are for kids, and some other things are for adults. And that they learn moderation.

But let's be honest to ourselves, it rarely fulfills that void that we so desperately seek to have filled in our lives. The high/climax is only for a moment - and then we are again left with that empty feeling.
Nope. I feel satisfied, not empty. Perhaps the void is from something else. The only "voids" in my life are unrelated to my sex life.

What are you saying to a child when you observe woman naked, but tell them they can't observe it?
Well, I'm not much into looking at naked women... But I'd have no problem, say, taking my kids to the Art Institute in Chicago and having them see the paintings that feature naked women. The naked body in and of itself is not porn. As for looking at porn and then telling my children they can't - well, it's not like they'd be watching me look at it.

Besides - do you feel that everything an adult does should be something that a child can do too? Would you put a 6 year old in the driver's seat of a car?

Don't they then do the same - looking for that "experience" they see the adults doing.
Again, I think in general the children are not watching the adults with porn. And rightly so.

People, you have to want it to be better. You have to want it better for your children. And you have to be willing to sacrafice selfish desires so that they can learn self control and morally sound behavior.
I don't know. I think I'd be pretty happy if my children turned out like me. I like myself.

[Sunnyone]

...If my kid saw that he would probably ask what strip poker is and I could have an age-appropriate conversation with him about sex. Hiding your kid from sex so that s/he has to figure it all out on his own--and s/he will--is a very bad idea if you want to instill values.

So would the conversation go something like this, "... When a woman looks this hot, and you see her wearing pretty close to nothing, you'll begin to fantasize about her. You'll mind will wander around about places and positions and things like that... You'll begin to get aroused and wish she was near you... touching you... etc... etc... etc..."

I seriously doubt that would be your sex education lecture to your kid...If you normal, you would probably start with something along the lines of, "When you find a girl that you really, really love... One where you would lay down your life for her..." And then hopefully, you'll introduce the concept of eternal commitment and then making love to her in the form of having sexual intimacy...

Joe...
JoeMoon, did you not notice the words "age appropriate" in kfluet's post? For what ages is your proposed discussion scenario appropriate? And what is wrong with telling children (especially young children) that you should reserve sexual acts for those you "really, really love"? I think you're pushing your point a little too far, IMHO.

[JoeMoon]

This just simply isn't right!! Here's an unpopular "opinion": There is a clearly defined right and wrong. Yes, some are grey, but many if not most are not. And no, these clearly defined answers are not "cultural specific" -- they are universal (in the broadest sense of the word).
The point is, there is a right and there is a wrong. You can claim all you want that each choses for their own, but the real choice is not what to call right and wrong, but rather whether to obey the right or disobey and follow the wrong.

We must each choose this -- to do what is right, or to do what is wrong.. that's the essense of free will. Today people want to "feel good" and so say "what's 'wrong' is now right."

Here is (a small fraction of) the authority I reference in the matter of "adult content":


So, in your belief system(which is subjective by nature) your opinion(which is subjective by nature) this is objective? Interesting - something subjecting making it objective.

Your authority isn't everyone's authority, I know you're going to say that it is and you're free to believe that. I'm also free to say that your authority is not mine.

Religion isn't equivalent to morality.

Consider this...

The time is 1942... You are a Jew... You are a prisnor to the Germans... You are presented before a German General who commands someone to kill you for being a Jew...

Is this right? What would be your response? No remember, in that time and in that regime killing Jews was acceptable... At least to the Germans!

I am sure that you would agree, that killing someone because of their nationality is unacceptable and immoral. Why? Explain to me why!

Joe...

[JoeMoon]

For those of you who think "soft" porn is not harmful, you might want to watch the interview that Dr. James Dopson had with serial killer and rapist Ted Bundy. Thats how it started for him. First soft core, then more explicit images, and then that wasn't enough.
One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

So with this logic, one could be a drug addict even if they never did drugs? Hmmm... Maybe I am the President of the United States even though I never been to Washington?!... Wow... I like this alternative reality crap... I can be something I am not!

Joe...

[JoeMoon]

I think the main issue is not censorship or morality or culture. It's about protecting children. I think everyone can get behind that. The bottom line is that I believe every culture wishes to protect their children from pornographic images.

What about protecting the teenager and the adults? Are we saying that as people get older, they become less vunerable to things? Hey, I admit that I want all the protection I can get... I have a car alarm, an alarm on my house... In my office... But no alarm on what can be potentially harmful to my soul? Again, double standard... We are more interested in protecting our possession than we are about protecting our minds for purity.

Joe...

[JoeMoon]

If I asked you to your face, did you download and/or buy a copy of Strip Blackjack or any other titles, would you answer me truthfully? Would *any person* who downloaded a copy of those kinds of materials give me an honest answer? I honestly don't think so. If I asked all those tens of thousands of people who downloaded these titles if they'd like them removed to make the site "child friendly" of course everyone would say yes, because they don't want to admit it that they downloaded and/or bought these titles.

And we would call that, "SHAME"?!

Why would someone be shameful of something they did - UNLESS they knew it was inappropriate, unacceptable or considered wrong themselves... You are not shameful of those things you are proud of... Must be something on the inside of every human being that causes they to feel the shame... Hmmm... Are we approaching something that might be common from person to person?!?

Joe...

[Jacob]

Consider this...

The time is 1942... You are a Jew... You are a prisnor to the Germans... You are presented before a German General who commands someone to kill you for being a Jew...

Is this right? What would be your response? No remember, in that time and in that regime killing Jews was acceptable... At least to the Germans!

I am sure that you would agree, that killing someone because of their nationality is unacceptable and immoral. Why? Explain to me why!

Joe...

I don't see the relevance of this analogy. Explain the relevance and I'll reply.

You should be very careful when making analogies to Nazi Germany. Most analogies I've seen made to Nazi Germany are not valid at all and ignore some key facts. This one doesn't appear to be an exception to that.

I don't see how you can justify comparing porn to killing human beings short of resorting to the shock factor.

[Sunnyone]

And we would call that, "SHAME"?!

Why would someone be shameful of something they did - UNLESS they knew it was inappropriate, unacceptable or considered wrong themselves... You are not shameful of those things you are proud of... Must be something on the inside of every human being that causes they to feel the shame... Hmmm... Are we approaching something that might be common from person to person?!?

Joe...
Maybe we don't want to be subjected to a non-ending, 117+ post tirade about why our opinions/values are less meaningful than yours.

[Kati Compton]

One could argue that the porn was a symptom, not the cause. As in, he was going to do those horrible things anyway, regardless of whether or not he could find porn. In other words, that killer rapists like porn, not that people that like porn become killer rapists.

So with this logic, one could be a drug addict even if they never did drugs? Hmmm... Maybe I am the President of the United States even though I never been to Washington?!... Wow... I like this alternative reality crap... I can be something I am not!
You were misinterpreting my statement, and that is not my logic.

Someone could not be a porn addict without porn. But one could become a killer and/or rapist without porn.

[Pat Logsdon]

What about protecting the teenager and the adults? Are we saying that as people get older, they become less vunerable to things?
Yes, that's generally what growing up is all about. You become less innocent, less gullible, interested in more and different things, and your ability to reason grows exponentially. You're able to think about the consequences of your actions, and act accordingly. For the most part, kids don't do that.

Hey, I admit that I want all the protection I can get... I have a car alarm, an alarm on my house... In my office... But no alarm on what can be potentially harmful to my soul? Again, double standard...
So get it for yourself. It's your soul, and you're responsible for it...just please don't try to tell me what's good for MY soul, since you don't know.

We are more interested in protecting our possession than we are about protecting our minds for purity.
Again, the quest for purity is YOUR concern, not mine, and I'd even venture to say that it's not an issue for society in general. Personally, I don't have a problem with looking at suggestive images, violence, whatever - it just doesn't do that much for me, and it's kind of boring. My life is full in many ways, and I'm pretty happy with myself and who I am.

I'm sorry that you don't feel the same way, but that's no reason to try to influence those around you to comply with your beliefs.

Personally, I think that those with problems should not be allowed to influence public policy on the issue they have a problem with. That includes porn and religion.

You've admitted that you have a compulsive issue with this kind of thing. I respect that, but I'd also ask you to respect the opinions of others, and not descend to the despicable level of comparing people who disagree with you to Nazis.

[jeff]

I think the main issue is not censorship or morality or culture. It's about protecting children. I think everyone can get behind that. The bottom line is that I believe every culture wishes to protect their children from pornographic images.

What about protecting the teenager and the adults? Are we saying that as people get older, they become less vunerable to things?

That's exactly what everyone's saying. Most adults aren't so weak willed that they can't indulge in things without becoming an addict. We know moderation - how far we can go before our actions adversely affect ourselves and others.

Children would eat candy for every meal if they were allowed, yet an adult wouldn't. Why? Because adults understand consequences better. Are all adults able to deal with such choices? No, but that's their problem. I don't think we should limit freedoms for the majority to help the weak few control themselves.

[Pat Logsdon]

It's a symptom of the sinful nature of man. So yes, maybe he was going to do those terrible things anyway, but I would argue that he wouldn't have done them any more than you or I would've done them. It appears (and I haven't viewed the interview) that pornography was the first step down a dark road that appeared well lit at first (i.e. pornography doesn't hurt anybody, so it's okay).

Sigh. Ok, so by this rationale, I could say (with just as much justification as you) that becoming a Republican is a step down a dark road, based on my belief that the death penalty is a bad thing. :roll:

[Janak Parekh]

OK. I hate to say it, but I suspected it would happen -- not only has this thread utterly derailed, we've invoked Godwin's law (http://info.astrian.net/jargon/terms/g/Godwin_s_Law.html), so that's all, folks.

--janak

P.S. JoeMoon wrote in with a nice ending to his viewpoint. Let's all just calmly walk away from the issue. I know there are a lot of viewpoints, and not everyone is going to agree -- we're just going to leave it that way.

I realize that the analogy I used to compare morality to the killing of innocent life during WWII was inappropriate. I also apologize to anyone and everyone who may have felt I was not willing to consider their views, but rather was being demeaning to their views and values. My intention was to not to hurt or demean anyone, but rather to provide an honest prospective for open consideration and discussion. I never wanted anyone to feel small, bad or unimportant from my messages, statements and/or replies. I respect the fact that every person in the world is in a different phase of their life... I am most thankful for those in my life who accepted me when I was at my worst - and therefore would like to be the same for others, regardless of their positions, views and/or values. I understand that I may not have come across that way in my posts to some, and again I apologize.