Searching the Web, Wirelessly?

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3023514.stm' target='_blank'>http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/3023514.stm</a><br /><br /></div>The above-linked article got me thinking about searching on Pocket PCs.<br /><br />"The web is making people picky and impatient, a US study has found. Researchers from the Penn State School of Information Sciences and Technology (IST) found that people are getting frustrated with search engines and making snap judgements about websites. Typically surfers visit only the first three results from a query, with one in five spending one minute or less on a linked web document."<br /><br />However, it's even <i>worse</i> if you're connected over a GPRS link on the street, trying to find the address of a restaurant or venue (that is, unless you have <a href="www.vindigo.com">Vindigo</a>). I usually use Google's <a href="www.google.com/ie">Pocket IE search page</a>, type in a few words, and cross my fingers and hope it works. Fortunately, it has, but it's still torturous, especially due to GPRS's pokey speeds and due to PDAs' small screens. Thunderhawk is a bit better, but it's generally too much work for me to hold my Pocket PC phone horizontally and boot up Thunderhawk when I want an answer in a few seconds.<br /><br />If you use your PDA on the spur of the moment wirelessly, how do you find information quickly?

[seeker]

When I search, I use Google either on the desktop, laptop, or on the PocketPC.... :D

[tewmgd]

yes it's always difficult to browse on internet with pdas, but because there's few interfaces optimized for it (pocketpcthoughts saves us with mobile version :wink: ) . It's not very hard to have a web site easy to read on pda screen, see www.nota-bene.org with a pda (it's use only css technology, but there's other ways to achieve thid)... I use google too and also wap, for example to search phone numbers with the wap version of the yellowpages ("les pages jaunes"). But I'm searching a good online map service for pda...

Matthieu

[MultiMatt]

If I need to find something quickly, Google still suits me best. If I'm wanting to check really quickly, I'll turn off the pictures, but that only helps a little with huge sites...
I just deal with it, and delight that I have the ability to do such stuff with my iPAQ! Sometimes, I feel like I could have called 411 for information faster than I get it on my device, but admit - it's so cool to do it that way!

:mrgreen:

Matt

[mashtim]

Vindigo is still the way to go. To easy to use and no connection worries.

[dean_shan]

I use google sor my searching needs. It is fast and to the point. When I am on my PPC I use the palm version of Google. I made a portal page for my home and have a google search field on it.

[freitasm]

The big problem is that you can use Google to find, but when you go to any of the result links you'll probably have a non-PDA friendly page.

I use my PPC to check my e-mail (and that's great), but when I want to check what's on the movies tonight I just call the cinema. Actually I've put the local ones in my mobile phonebook to save time.

Hell, GPRS and CDMA are awfully slow.
:evil:

[mike6024]

I don't anymore. When I switched my cell phone service I didn't reactivate the data line. The pain and humiliation of the slow service and small screen (even if I did find what I was looking for) wasn't worth the 'cool' factor anymore, and that's saying a lot coming from a guy like me. :)

[Pony99CA]

That study does NOT Mean Nothing, If you read closely, the study does not evaluate the quality of the information given to each user.
It is just saying that each user only clicked on the first 3 links.

Actually, that does say a lot. First, it says that search engine placement is critical. Second, it says that users are "lazy". I'm lazy, but I usually look at the first page of results, and sometimes the second page.

Modern day search engines have highly sophisticated search enginges that give you what you were looking for in the first lines of the result. If the information requested is not visible in the first page of results, chances are that you have chosen the wrong keywords to look for and that you need to re-type the search with different keywords.I use google and I'm proud to say I usually get what I'm looking for in the first 3 search results!
Search engines employ sophisticated algorithms, but they aren't a match for a human for deciding relevance. Until we have true artificial intelligence, the "highly sophisticated" engines you speak of will only be good at guessing.

Also, it's easy to blame the user for picking "bad" search terms, but the user obviously thought they were good choices. For example, if I'm searching for information on 512 MB Secure Digital cards, should I type "SD" or "Secure Digital"? If I'm searching for information on the iPAQ 2210, I'd likely also be interested in results about the 2215. A human would know to match both, but a search engine would require a user to use a Boolean search.

Another issue is page formatting and sentence placement. If I want to find reviews of the iPAQ 2215, and type "iPAQ 2215" review, I would get sites that had "iPAQ 2215" and "review" on the same page, even if they weren't related (but missing "iPAQ h2215", of course). I could narrow it by specifying "iPAQ 2215" NEAR review, but I'd still get pages that said something like, "To review, the iPAQ 2215, 1945, 5155 and 5555 were announced today." I suppose you can blame the author for picking "bad" terms when writing, though. :roll:

Steve

[achille]

[danmanmayer]

This is why i would like to see tiny VB apps written to access common pages. Things like yellowpages.com could have a moble app that would work on pocket pcs and it allow you to search without having to download the first page. Then with a VB you are only connecting and downloading the information you want not all the downloading just to get somewhere to ask another question. I think these small but usefull specaility apps could be very useful. I could crank out an app like that in about 2 or 3 hours. So it couldn't be that expensive for site to do this. I mean have people tried to use moviephone.com on a pocket pc it is almost impossible.

[msprague]

For wireless yellow page type searches I use go2.com (http://go2.com). It is formatted for PDAs (phones too) and will give directions as well. They also have movie listings, weather and more. It is a very useful low-bandwidth service. In fact, I am surprised the don't charge for it.
Welcome to go2online.com, the real-world addressing and navigation system. go2 allows you to search the real world while you are on the move with your mobile device. Wherever You are, Whatever You Want, Close By. sm. Once go2 has helped you find what you are looking for, we can help you to navigate your way there with turn-by-turn directions. go2 is your tool for making any neighborhood your neighborhood. Keep your eye on our service as we continue to deliver to you more useful functionality right to your mobile device.

[Janak Parekh]

This is why i would like to see tiny VB apps written to access common pages. Things like yellowpages.com could have a moble app that would work on pocket pcs and it allow you to search without having to download the first page.
Ah, interesting point. I think you'll see more of this, but not via eVB, but rather C#/.NET CF -- this is a perfect application for Web Services clients (i.e., provide access to a database over SOAP/HTTP). In some ways, this will be a worthy successor to Palm's PQA technology, but more standards-based and which will be much more broadly adopted (Palm is also coming out with Web Services solutions, which I'll talk about in a later column).

--janak

[Pony99CA]

Uh, I didn't literally mean the study means nothing, it was just an expression,

Then why say it? :?:

I'm saying the study did not evaluate whether the first 3 results were what the user was looking for, therefore the study assumed that every result was wrong and the user would have to go to each page, and each "Result" page.

Where did the study say they assumed the user was wrong? The user might have found what they were looking for, or they might not have. Yes, the study probably should have indicated whether they had or not, but I don't think they could have given what the article said about the study.

Unless you have read the study (and I didn't see a link to it), you can't assume it was intended to study that. The important thing is that 80% of users find what they want in the first three links or they give up. The implication of that is that, if your page isn't in the first three links, you'll only get 20% of the potential traffic you could have.

Since most users find what they’re looking for at the first page they don't need to go to the second.

As you yourself admitted, the study didn't cover whether they found what they were looking for, so you can't possibly know that.

Search engines employ sophisticated algorithms, but they aren't a match for a human for deciding relevance. Until we have true artificial intelligence, the "highly sophisticated" engines you speak of will only be good at guessing.
Well, you are excluding Google in this case =D
Google indeed DOES use the Intellect of it's users to build upon it's search. The more a search result is clicked, the more it's pageranking is increased. Therefore after some time, the search result will include ranking by the most popular items, which are the items that "INTELLIGENT HUMANS" have made, thus giving the google search results more/better results that a regular Boolean search.

I'm not sure if that's how Google's page ranking works, but I'll assume it is. However, that still doesn't mean there's human intelligence there. If a page shows up as the first link, many people might click it even if it turns out to be irrelevant, thus keeping its page rank high.

Also, MFC (Most Frequently Clicked) is still just a heuristic. There is no real thinking going on behind applying it.

Let's look at a counterexample. Read Ed's thread about closing applications (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=13460) and the Least Recently Used (LRU) algorithm. A human clearly "decided" the order in which applications were used, but that doesn't imply that they want the one used longest ago to be closed.

I have no choice but make an example of you as a bad reader =D.

Of course you have a choice, and it would be a bad thing to do. I might have to cite you as a poor writer: "That study does NOT Mean Nothing, If you read closely, the study does not evaluate the quality of the information given to each user." A double negative, a missing period, etc. :razz:

Anyway....

I don’t know about you but I just made a search for "iPAQ 2215 review" on google.com and the VERY FIRST link given to me was barganpda's review of the IPAQ 2215 http://www.bargainpda.com/default.asp?newsID=1457&showComments=true
I didn't even try that search; it was just supposed to be an example. My point is still relevant even if that example isn't.

Also notice that I said "If I want to find reviews...". Note the plural. When buying a PDA, I think prudent buyers would want more than one review. They wouldn't want a bunch of links that weren't reviews (like the second link using that search -- "Ipaq 2215 Review Soon", which dealt with an upcoming review on Sprinklerhead, not an actual review).

Steve

P.S. Threats via Private Message are not a good idea. I feel that the scientific merit of the study is worthy of discussing in the thread, not private messages, especially considering that you brought it up here. If you didn't want it discussed here, you shouldn't have mentioned it here.

[DustyLBottoms]

I go to EvMo

it allows you to type in the area code that you're in and get pretty much any listing you desire, plus if you know your address, you can get directions!

http://www.evmo.com/mobile/

[achille]

[tato68]

Folks,

I use EM Evolution Mode www.evmo.com for finding quick info. I also use Goggle pocket. for quick numbers try 555-1212.com

Later

[dlauri]

for quick numbers try 555-1212.com
OK, I'll bite. Why would anyone pay for 555-1212.com when www.anywho.com is free? Does the pay service offer something the free one doesn't?

[Janak Parekh]

Google's Pageranking system works by seeing how much a site is linked and how many people click on it.
Actually, it's the former and not the latter. Google search results link directly to the target site, and as such it cannot track whether you "clicked through". PageRank is primarily rated based on how "linked to" a site is; that is, if Pocket PC Thoughts was the most linked-to-site for Pocket PCs, we'd appear on top for a search using those words. (It so turns out, BTW, that we're third. ;))

There are other heuristics and weights in the algorithm, but they're closely guarded and less fundamental to the concept.

--janak

[achille]

[Arne Hess]

If you use your PDA on the spur of the moment wirelessly, how do you find information quickly?
Like you I'm using "Pocket" Google or now also PDA-Search.net:

LONDON, 29th April 2003 - Until now PDA users have been unable to search through thousands of PDA related websites from a single location.
That's where PDA-Search.net comes to the rescue!

PDA-Search.net has spidered over 45,000 pages, covering Pocket PC, Palm and Symbian websites. There are still a lot to go, but PDA users are sure to find the right results at PDA-Search.net.

Currently there are five language versions: English, French, German, Italian and Spanish. Allowing webmasters with specific language orientated sites to be included in the relevant database. PDA-Search.net also returns results in that language too, making it a truly multilingual PDA website! More languages will be added soon.

PDA users who surf the 'net can also benefit from our PDA version. Designed to fit on smaller screens, this is a very fast, virtually graphic free, version very well suited to mobile users.

http://www.pda-search.net/pda_search.php

PDA-Search.net spiders websites automatically, and returns every 2 to 4 weeks to check for new information, so webmasters only have to submit their URL to the database once. If your site isn't listed then suggest it via the form onsite.

http://www.ppcw.net/?itemid=1216


Another solution which isn't that bad comes from AlltheWeb.com:

Another way is gone by AlltheWeb.com with "All the Mobile Web, All the Time". This is a Search Engine, dedicated to mobile contents and lists WAP, i-mode, HDML and PDA sites only. On your desktop you can select which content you are looking for while on the Pocket PC it lists PDA optimized sites by default.

http://www.ppcw.net/?itemid=713

http://www.ppcw.net/images/column/alltheweb/pie1.gif http://www.ppcw.net/images/column/alltheweb/pie2.gif

[tato68]

for quick numbers try 555-1212.com
OK, I'll bite. Why would anyone pay for 555-1212.com when www.anywho.com is free? Does the pay service offer something the free one doesn't?

actually, the site is free! try this limk on your PPC.
http://www.555-1212.com/palm/

[TopDog]

I to use http://mobile.alltheweb.com/ it's great and only shows sites that are PDA-friendly

But mostly all the links I need, are on my own PDA-portal: http://pdanorway.com/mobile/ :-)

[Scott R]

I think you'll see more of this, but not via eVB, but rather C#/.NET CF -- this is a perfect application for Web Services clients (i.e., provide access to a database over SOAP/HTTP). In some ways, this will be a worthy successor to Palm's PQA technology, but more standards-based and which will be much more broadly adopted (Palm is also coming out with Web Services solutions, which I'll talk about in a later column).Palm's original PQA design was never meant to be device-independent (for better or worse) because it offered a unique selling point for their first wireless device, the Palm VII. Creating PQA apps is relatively easy as the front-end is designed with regular HTML (along with several custom tags). You then run this HTML document through a special compiler and it creates an installable file for the Palm. Palm "donated" the use of their proxy server, such that "regular folks" could create these apps. Of course, most of the more powerful/useful ones usually tied into a back-end database somewhere.

I still feel that this is a superior solution for much of what a wireless PDA is needed for on the road. Palm's solution (when used with a VII or i705) had the added benefit of being able to determine your present zip code by thanks to Mobitex's network.

Sadly Palm decided to drop PQA support in OS5 and MS still offers nothing similar. So, we're stuck having to go through the browser and waiting noticeably longer just to look up a phone number, for instance.

Scott

[Janak Parekh]

Now if you turn that backwards:
With all advanced features enabled, information about the sites you visit will be communicated to Google.
It has nothing to do with click-through, though. The Toolbar submits the site's name and does a PageRank lookup, whether you go through Google or type a random address in the IE bar.

--janak

[danmanmayer]

Sadly Palm decided to drop PQA support in OS5 and MS still offers nothing similar. So, we're stuck having to go through the browser and waiting noticeably longer just to look up a phone number, for instance.

Scott

Honestly using all the prebuilt features of EVB are pretty close it can do Winsock and then you can post and recieve data over HTTP. I wrote a program to post to my blog from my PPC that only took about 3 hours to write and looking at my blog software to see all of the froms data that i would need to post. My software would first allow me to write the entire post then when i clicked send it logs on, posts the writting, and tells the site to rebuild itself so everything is updated. Since VB does give access to so many common features i think it is kinda similar, but maybe more difficult i never used palms solution.

[AndrewShuttleworth]

If you search using the i-mode version of Google it will format the results and any links you click through for a mobile phone screen. A bit of overkill for a Pocket PC but useful in an emergency.

http://www.google.com/imode?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8

Alternatively you can click on the Go To URL or follow the link below where you can input any URL for Google to convert it to the mobile screen.

http://www.google.com/imode?lr=&ie=UTF-8&im=p&&hl=en

Now if only they had an engine that would automatically reformat for PDA screens :-)

Andrew