CDMA and Bluetooth?

[Janak Parekh]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupdate/stories/main/0,14179,2914156,00.html' target='_blank'>http://techupdate.zdnet.com/techupd...2914156,00.html</a><br /><br /></div>David Berlind writes an article about upcoming converged devices, and how he'd rather prefer a Bluetooth solution, except for the fact none are available for CDMA. A quote:<br /><br />"Today, virtually all SprintPCS voice plans come packaged with an all-you-can-eat data plan. These plans are designed to encourage the sales of data-capable phones such as the $99 Sanyo 8100 camera phone, which makes it easy to take low resolution pictures and transmit them to friends and family. But the reason SprintPCS can offer these all-you-can-eat data plans to business users and consumers alike without overwhelming its 2.5G network is that the company never envisioned any of the wireless devices in its lineup as loquacious generators of data. When used as intended, even the most sophisticated of the PDA/phones that SprintPCS resells (such as the Treo 300) can only generate modest amounts of data."<br /><br />Unfortunately, it's no longer clear whether the CDMA phone he refers to in the article will even exist. The SE T608, which David refers to, may never be offered -- Sony Ericsson just <a href="http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/31401.html">pulled out of the CDMA market</a>.<br /><br />It seems that Verizon and Sprint are very afraid of the implications of a BT phone on their network -- since 1xRTT allows greater bandwidth than GPRS (at least in most commercial implementations in the US), they seem reluctant to release one until they figure out the cost structures. Compare that to T-Mobile, who's willing to offer $19.99 unlimited data (assuming you have a voice plan), whether it's over a PC card, a Bluetooth phone, a smartphone, etc. However, it's very frustrating for customers, myself included.

[mangochutneyman]

Actually its's being reported that by July 1st, SprintPCS will be changing their TOS to allow use of their mobiles as modem for laptops/pda's:

http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/wa/story?newsID=11167

Sprint PCS has done an about-face and now allows subscribers to use their 1xRTT Vision service with laptops and PDA's.

Sprint PCS quietly updated their Terms of Service effective 6/1. Most notable, is the removal of the portion of the Terms of Service that stated that customers could not use their phone as a modem with the $10 to $15 a month Unlimited Vision plan.

Previously the Terms of Service warned that users could be blocked from using Vision, or have their contracts terminated for using it as well. The Terms of Service also blocked the usage of "PCS Vision Connection Kits" which were USB cables that Sprint sold to allow customers to use their phone as a modem. These kits were pulled from stores when Unlimited Vision was announced, and most customers were not given a refund for buying it.

This is extremely good news for people using Vision with their PowerBook, as Sprint had even gone beyond their Terms of Service and started charging customers up to $.002 cents per KB of data transfered, accusing them of violating the ToS.

This comes on the heels of T-Mobile announcing an unlimited data plan that could be added to most voice plans for only $20, and $29.99 for data cards. Sprint PCS still sells data card plans with unlimited access to Vision for $80 a month.


Thus I'm not so sure SprintPCS is "afraid" as the article above descibes!!

[MultiMatt]

It seems that Verizon and Sprint are very afraid of the implications of a BT phone on their network -- since 1xRTT allows greater bandwidth than GPRS (at least in most commercial implementations in the US), they seem reluctant to release one until they figure out the cost structures.

Thank you Janak! I have been asking for ages (on numerous discussion boards) why neither Sprint nor Verizon offered BT phones, and I never heard a clear answer.
Now I know - both companies realize that there are thousands upon thousands of people who are waiting for a (Sprint or Verizon) BT phone with baited breath, ready to connect with various BT-enabled devices and surf at high speed, and they aren't ready for that.

Which truly sucks.

Matt

[Cipr0]

I chuckle at all the pro GSM/GPRS cackle on this site......


BTW......? Where is UMTS?

[Janak Parekh]

I chuckle at all the pro GSM/GPRS cackle on this site......
Hardly. I'm a big fan of Verizon and 1xRTT, and it has substantially better coverage than T-Mobile in the NY metro area. It's just that it's not an option for me, what with it being very expensive Express Network-wise (although rumors are circulating about free use of your minutes for Express Network) and the lack of Bluetooth!

--janak

[clinte]

Unfortunately, it's no longer clear whether the CDMA phone he refers to in the article will even exist. The SE T608, which David refers to, may never be offered -- Sony Ericsson just pulled out of the CDMA market (http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/68/31401.html).

Preview of Sony Ericsson T608 for Sprint PCS (Updated)
Tuesday, June 24, 2003
R. Emory Lundberg, Assoc. Ed.
From the Mobile Phone Dept.

"Press Release from Sony Ericsson makes a few things very clear.

This move to stop work on new CDMA handsets, and scale back on R&D efforts is clearly a bad sign. Ericsson has been getting short on money for quite some time, and completely killing off an entire line of products is certainly a drastic move considering they had not even attempted to penetrate that market.

With the R&D money gone for a product they'll never sell, hopefully Sony Ericsson can pull a rabbit out of their hat to stay even remotely competitive. Phonescoop is reporting that Sony Ericsson may still continue to sell this product, but with little to no future development in the queue, it may leave people wondering what they'll do when there are bugs that need fixing."

more
http://www.powerpage.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects/powerpage.woa/15/wa/story?newsID=11159&wosid=gsuOfn4qMZClLXpPhKxor0

"Sony Ericsson Mobile Communications has decided to prioritize development of its GSM/UMTS/EDGE business and discontinue the development of CDMA mobile phones for the North American market. Sony Ericsson remains committed to the continued development of CDMA phones for the Japanese market and CDMA machine-to-machine modules."
http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?page=gis&Redir=page%3DC2_1_73%26B%3Die

Maybe the demand for CDMA phones with built-in Bluetooth by Americans isn't interesting enough for SonyEricsson to continue in this market. The overhype, lack of US Carriers support, the WiFi (overhyped) success story and the doom and gloom stories by some so-called tech experts (especially in the US) seem to be a few but very important points why Bluetooth has been slowly adopted in the US imho.

"Verizon knows or has to know that there are enough interesting mobile phones with Bluetooth available. I read that Analysts say that 1 out of 5 phones made today has Bluetooth and that will increase overtime. I don't know if there has to be a special Mobile phone with Bluetooth for the Verizon *Cellular technology!? AT&T, T-Mobile, Cingular, Vodafone and soon Sprint (will) offer Bluetooth services. It's a joke imho that a "Carrier" like Verizon, which seems to back WiFi big time, doesn't offer Mobile Bluetooth Solutions or safety handsfree bluetooth solutions."

Verizon Wireless is the first nationwide wireless carrier to offer FreeSpeak (Jabra Bluetooth Headset): "I was looking at Verizon phones today while I am home visiting in NY. I asked about Bluetooth (specifically looking for the *Motorola T-68i) and was told that the only Bluetooth phone they had was recently discontinued, but that they have bluetooth headsets they could sell me... "for the phones you don't sell?" I asked, "yes" they said! *shakes head* So apparently I have to go to T-Mobile (Voicestream) to get that phone, not sure their service is any better, but apparently no ones is good so it's worth a try I guess."

Verizon employee (?) on Monday October 21, 2002: "Several Bluetooth phones have been tested or will be tested. Motorola has a bluetooth module for headsets and PCs that they may be releasing late this year or early next year. Embedded phones to follow, but hopefully there will be applications that can take advantage of what Bluetooth has to offer."......."1XRTT or CDMA 2000 is the technology of choice for Verizon Wireless and Sprint PCS. Verizon has national coverage in over 800 cities, which is larger than Sprints entire national service offering, and there are more cities to come. The benefits of CDMA 2000 is in data speeds (40-60Kbps up to 144Kbps) and in voice capacity. If every customer replaced their current handset with a 1X capable handset, Verizon and Sprint would be able to double the number of customers on their respective networks without sacrificing voice quality or capacity. That is a big advantage. Additionally, CDMA 2000 device are backwards compatible to the older CDMA IS-95."

Am very curious which phones they tested(?). Maybe the checked the T608 out (and/or the discontinued Mot 270c phone with added BT module) because more CDMA/BT aren't available. Or they have tested GSM/GPRS/BT phones!?

source:
http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=174774#post174774

[DerekTheGeek]

I have to agree with the author of the article. For almost 1.5 years I have watched GSM providers offer Bluetooth implementations that actually work. While Verizon and Sprint target the "TeenAge & Rave crowd" with phones that can change color and download ringtones of the latest boy band, the rest of us are stuck. The only CDMA bluetooth phone was the Timeport 270c which has since been discontinued and does not support High speed data access. If GSM coverage were on par with CDMA and analog in my area I would switch in a hearbeat. But alas, it is not. So here is my solution.

1) Bought a Timeport 270c on eBay (used) - $65
2) Bought Motorola Bluetooth module for 270c - $60

End result = A great Tri-Mode phone with Bluetooth. I was able to connect to my wifes iPaq 2215 (yes the PPC 2003 just released) via Bluetooth without any problems. My Jabra BT200 can link with the 270c but not reliably. I have since purchased the Motorola Bluetooth headset and its seems to work fine. Sure I am limited to 14.4 kps data access but its far better than nothing. Keep in mind that the Bluetooth module for the 270c may not be Bluetooth v1.1 compatible when you buy it. You can send it to Motorola to have it flashed to the latest version for free. Also the 270c handset needs to be flashed to the latest firmware. I did this at my local Verizon store.

- Derek

[Janak Parekh]

The only CDMA bluetooth phone was the Timeport 270c which has since been discontinued and does not support High speed data access. If GSM coverage were on par with CDMA and analog in my area I would switch in a hearbeat. But alas, it is not. So here is my solution.
You know, I was this close to getting the 270c when it was still a current phone, but I was drooling over the T68 at the time. And now, I can't justify getting a 14.4 modem... GPRS is slow enough as it is. :cry:

There was/is a Sony Ericsson phone, the T61c (http://www.phonescoop.com/phones/phone.php?id=27), that theoretically can do both 1xRTT and Bluetooth (via optional back, similar to the 270c), but I've never heard of anyone who was successful in doing so.

--janak

[srs]

I am looking to get a new cellphone / service, and so far verizon seems to be the best for voice / data ($40, 500 anytime minutes, unlimited nights and weekends, and you can access the express network (144kbps data using your regular airtime minutes).

the downside seems to be the lack of good phones (bluetooth, camera, etc) so I will be stuck having to use a wire to connect my pda / laptop.

T-mobile seems to have really good phones / rebates but I am unsure of the coverage in my area, and also the speed of the internet acces (19 kbps ???)

edit: wow I have a t61c and didn't even realize bluetooth was a possibility

edit2: looks like it may or may not work as it is not listed as an accessory for the t61c: http://www.sonyericsson.com/us/spg.jsp?template=PS1_2&B=ie&PID=9965&LM=PSM_V&gal=105

and the bluetooth adapter doesn't list it as compatible either: http://www.sonyericsson.com/us/spg.jsp?template=PS1_1&B=ie&PID=9594&LM=PSM_V&gal=

[Janak Parekh]

edit: wow I have a t61c and didn't even realize bluetooth was a possibility
Right -- this is the problem. There is a Bluetooth module that was developed for the T60c, and rumors have had it that it should be compatible with the T61c, but I've heard fairly unsuccessful reports at best.

--janak

[bbarker]

Verizon has released its Samsung i700, which I assume operates on 1xRTT. But it's expensive enough that I guess they aren't worried about millions of people buying it and overwhelming the network.

Personally, I prefer a non-convergent solution. I want to choose my cell phone and PDA separately and use them together. I used a 1xRTT-capable Socket cable between my Jornada and my Kyocera 2235 phone, but I lost it a few months ago. Since then I've been waiting for a Bluetooth phone. It's frustrating knowing the technology is there but Verizon won't implement it.

[trog]

Bluetooth is only popular with a very small segment of the wireless community ( voice ). The fact that Verizon does not offer a Bluetooth phone has nothing to do with network capacity or data use, it has to do with a lack of quality BT enabled CDMA phones. Verizon and Sprint are the carrier, not the cell phone manufacturers. They have tested dozens of BT phones that fail network testing. The manufacturers are developing BT for GSM/GPRS because of the European users. It is the dominant technology over there. They are however developing BT equipment for EVDO, which is the next step in wireless data. Speeds up to 2.4Mbs. Verizon is testing in San Diego and Washington D.C. Blame the phone manufacturers, not the carriers. There have been numerous wireless data flameouts ( Riccochet ). Carriers are not going to sell a sub-standard voice product for the sake of data. Breakdown and by an expansion pack and a PCMCIA card if you want unlimited data. Same price, better results. You can talk and surf.

[Daimaou]

In Japan we do have CDMA 1x and soon CDMA 1x EV-DO 2.4Mbps (late this year), But NO Mobile operators are willing to implement BlueTooth... There were only 1 CDMA BT, a SONY, but was discontinued...

I spoke with some manager in Qualcomm Japan, and it was not really clear if, they don’t like BT or their isn't any market for that? (Anyway it was a Question that he didn't like) I explain him that ok even if people are not all using a PDA with BT, we got Car and Headset BT profiles which is amazing, no need to plug or push any button... (Once again this affirmation was troublesome for him).

Does it mean that BT and the CDMA Tech may be not really able to live together?

But finally at the End of my meeting with him I could hear that Toyota and Honda Will release some BT car here soon… but what for if no things can work with?

Sony in Japan is the only company who believe in BT and put it everywhere BUT ! On their new CLIE NX80V and 73 they didn’t implement it for the JAPANESE market, only for the EUR market…

Very strange I really want to know what is going on with BT? It is because it’s an European Tech That US based Company are forcing to not use this? (It could be simply Political) or simply because BT doesn’t work properly next to the CDMA Tech? (Also possible)

[whydidnt]

The fact that Verizon does not offer a Bluetooth phone has nothing to do with network capacity or data use, it has to do with a lack of quality BT enabled CDMA phones. Verizon and Sprint are the carrier, not the cell phone manufacturers.

However, both Sprint and Verizon decide which phones they will sell and market. It obviously isn't a priority for them to offer Bluetooth, or they would. There is nothing "magic" about certifying a phone for use with CDMA/TDMA vs. GSM. If either of these operators wanted a Bluetooth phone they would offer it, and a manufacturer would be glad to deliver. NO manufacturer is going to build a CDMA telphone for use in the US unless Sprint or Verizon is going to offer it on their network. :devilboy:

The lack of Bluetooth enabled phone(s) is the ONLY reason that I don't subscribe to Sprint PCS, and why I use TMobile. I am addicted to my wireless headset, and now wireless surfing from my 2215. :ppclove:

I wonder how many other potential customers Sprint and Verizon miss out on because they refuse to offer this technology? :frusty:

Whydidnt

[Janak Parekh]

The fact that Verizon does not offer a Bluetooth phone has nothing to do with network capacity or data use, it has to do with a lack of quality BT enabled CDMA phones.
Not entirely. In addition to what whydidnt said, it's very notable that Verizon specifically had SE disable Bluetooth in their version of the T608 (i.e., the T606). In the US CDMA market, mobile carriers do dictate specifications at times to the manufacturers and get phones built for them. Part of the reason this is the case is because the US doesn't really have a free/open phone market, as opposed to Europe due to broader SIM use.

--janak

[Janak Parekh]

Does it mean that BT and the CDMA Tech may be not really able to live together?
Absolutely not. Many Qualcomm CDMA chipsets, such as this one (http://www.cdmatech.com/solutions/products/msm6500_chipset_solution.jsp), explicitly support Bluetooth.

It is because it’s an European Tech That US based Company are forcing to not use this? (It could be simply Political)
Doubtful, because the Bluetooth consortium that invented the technology has a large contingent of US companies. In fact, the "promoter members" (https://www.bluetooth.org/foundry/sitecontent/document/Membership) of the technology are 3Com, Agere, Ericsson, IBM, Intel, Microsoft, Motorola, Nokia, and Toshiba. Of those 9, 6 are American, and in fact Motorola is one of the largest manufacturers of CDMA phones.

As my previous post suggested, I think it's more due to the way GSM phones are sold and have to compete against each other on the open market, as opposed to the closed-market approach for CDMA (i.e., sold only through carriers). Unfortunately, I really can't speak for Japan, but I can say it's probably not the two reasons you mentioned.

--janak

[Kirk Stephens]

Arggggg...damnit sony :2gunfire: :snipersmile:

I've been holding on to my Sprint PCS phone with a busted screen in the hopes that I would be able to purchase that bluetooth phone sometime this summer...

[Janak Parekh]

I've been holding on to my Sprint PCS phone with a busted screen in the hopes that I would be able to purchase that bluetooth phone sometime this summer...
Well, there is still a chance it'll hit the market, as the unit is essentially finished... but I wouldn't bet huge amounts of money on it. :(

--janak

[daS]

The fact that Verizon does not offer a Bluetooth phone has nothing to do with network capacity or data use, it has to do with a lack of quality BT enabled CDMA phones. Verizon and Sprint are the carrier, not the cell phone manufacturers.

That statement simply wrong and ignores the realities of the CDMA market: In the case of GSM/GPRS the mobile phone manufacturers can design their phones independently of the carriers because the users can make their purchase decisions independently of the carrier which allows the carriers to sell the phones that the market wants. This is all due to the SIM card technology that allows the consumer to move their account to any GSM phone regardless of what the carrier does. However, since CDMA consumers are completely dependent on the carriers for the phones available (and there are only two CDMA carriers in the USA and none in Europe), the carriers dictate all aspects of phone features to the manufacturers.

I have had numerous discussions with the manufacturers about the lack of CDMA/1xRTT phones with Bluetooth and every time they say the same thing “we are prepared to make such models, but the carriers are not including Bluetooth in the specifications.” :grumble:

So to blame it on the manufactures ignores the complete lock on the designs that the CDMA carriers have. :evil:

As for 1x EVDO – I was at the CTIA show in New Orleans in March and Verizon provided loaner 1x EVDO cards to members of the press. The speed was incredible, I don’t want yet another card to carry that doesn’t work with all my devices. I use GSM/GPRS despite the speed advantages of CDMA’s packet switched data simply because I can connect any of my portable devices via Bluetooth and also because when a new phone becomes available, I can get it even if my carrier waits a year to decide to offer it themselves.
Once there’s mobile number portability (supposedly this November) and CDMA/1x phones that offer Bluetooth, I’ll be a Verizon customer. Until then, I’m much happier with a lower speed network that provides the functionality I want. And Bluetooth is no longer an option it’s an absolute requirement. :way to go:

[Daimaou]

Also want I don't understand is the lack of roaming system for Qualcomm Products, even if Qualcomm got full featured Chip GSM/CDMA 1x EVDO, no operators want to do implement it. I am traveling a lot (born in France, living in Japan, my HQ in Swiss and our training Airport in Spain.... :?

So I am between two network GSM and CDMA... ok luckily Vodafone bought J-Phone and now we can have W-CDMA (different from CDMA1x) and GSM, but once again it is the operator who don't allow you to use foreign Mobile phone with their SIM...

I do love CDMA due to so many neat features like GPS, EVDO and got a better reception in bldg... but CDMA Operators doesn't seems to care about us.

I wanted to by the Samsung i700 (CDMA) to use it in Japan (Same tech so should not be a PB)

1) I cannot buy this coz I am not US citizen :evil:
2) They don't only sell the Phone :evil:
3) Since it is not a Product bought in my Japanese Operator this one don't want to activate it :evil:

I called Qualcomm and told me that it will work in Japan but nobody want to make it work....

So CDMA is nice but not flexible. I will prefere a W-CDMA/GSM phone like the Nokia 6650 where I can use everywhere in the world (excpet Korea... :? ) and put every SIM card that I want in It... (I buy a 3G Japanese phone for 20$ and only use their card)...

So complicated for people who want to use their phone everywhere

[ikesler]

Arggggg...damnit sony :2gunfire: :snipersmile:

I've been holding on to my Sprint PCS phone with a busted screen in the hopes that I would be able to purchase that bluetooth phone sometime this summer...

I am with you man! I have been waiting and waiting as well.......... might be time to say bye, bye Sprint! :devilboy:

[Janak Parekh]

So CDMA is nice but not flexible. I will prefere a W-CDMA/GSM phone like the Nokia 6650 where I can use everywhere in the world (excpet Korea... :? ) and put every SIM card that I want in It... (I buy a 3G Japanese phone for 20$ and only use their card)...
I totally agree with you and David. It'll get worse, I think, until it gets better. Hopefully more CDMA carriers outside of S. Korea will eventually appreciate the importance of SIM cards and what it does for the market.

--janak

[nosmohtac]

(and there are only two CDMA carriers in the USA and none in Europe), the carriers dictate all aspects of phone features to the manufacturers.



Three CDMA carriers, if you count Cellular One. They don't have much coverage east of the Mississippi, but they do cover everything west of there (except for a few metropolitan areas that they weren't quick enough to establish themselves).

[daS]

Three CDMA carriers, if you count Cellular One.
Thanks. I stand corrected.

I had thought that Cellular One was bought out by someone. I used to hear about them here in California, but other than a few old signs in some independent cellular stores, I haven't seen that name for quite some time.

BTW: Before someone points out that Nextel's iDEN is technically CDMA, I didn't count them because they certainly have a unque relationship with the manufacturer - with Motorola owning a controlling interest in Nextel you have even less choice than with Verizon and Sprint.

[nosmohtac]

Very True: the situation with nextel.

Although, for the purpose of this discussion, you could easily count Cellular one out, because they have no data packages beyond text messaging.

[Janak Parekh]

BTW: Before someone points out that Nextel's iDEN is technically CDMA, I didn't count them because they certainly have a unque relationship with the manufacturer - with Motorola owning a controlling interest in Nextel you have even less choice than with Verizon and Sprint.
Actually, iDEN is a variant of TDMA, so no discussion there. ;) You only see Motorola phones because they invented the technology and keep it very close to their vest.

--janak

[daS]

Actually, iDEN is a variant of TDMA, so no discussion there. ;) You only see Motorola phones because they invented the technology and keep it very close to their vest.
You are of course right - iDEN uses 6-slot TDMA in the 1900MHz band.

That's why posting in forums takes me so much less time than writing articles: I rely on my (obviously poor) memory instead of checking all my facts first. :oops:

Thanks for the correction.

[danmanmayer]

T-mobile is amazing and i love unlimitted data. I can do anything on my phone now. It is great. My cable modem went out for 2 days during that time i updated my website sent e-mails and did a research paper on my T-mobile Pocket pc phone.

[Rob Borek]

Actually, iDEN is a variant of TDMA, so no discussion there. ;) You only see Motorola phones because they invented the technology and keep it very close to their vest.
You are of course right - iDEN uses 6-slot TDMA in the 1900MHz band.

That's why posting in forums takes me so much less time than writing articles: I rely on my (obviously poor) memory instead of checking all my facts first. :oops:

Thanks for the correction.

Bzzt... check again... iDEN operates in the 800Mhz band, below that of the traditional analog frequencies (in the SMR frequency range). You're just not doing too well today ;)

[daS]

Bzzt... check again... iDEN operates in the 800Mhz band, below that of the traditional analog frequencies (in the SMR frequency range). You're just not doing too well today ;)
Time for me to take a break! :?

Actually, I should have realized my mistake - given the history of Nextel. (They appeared when Motorola switched the taxi two-way radios from analog to digital - freeing up bandwidth for Nextel to use.) However, I grabbed a reference book that said that iDEN uses 1900MHz.

I'm fairly sure I'm right about the 6-slot (vs. 8 for GSM) TDMA though. :)

[Programmer]

[quote=trog]The lack of Bluetooth enabled phone(s) is the ONLY reason that I don't subscribe to Sprint PCS, and why I use TMobile. I am addicted to my wireless headset, and now wireless surfing from my 2215. :ppclove:
Whydidnt

You happy with TMobile?.. I am thinking of switching to TMobile from Verizon for all the reasons listed here.

[Janak Parekh]

You happy with TMobile?.. I am thinking of switching to TMobile from Verizon for all the reasons listed here.
T-Mobile is decent if their coverage matches up with where you live/work. In California, T-Mobile uses Cingular's network, so that might give you a feel for how the service is there.

Their prices are certainly very aggressive, especially the unlimited GPRS pricing. I have it, and I'm reasonably happy with it, except for coverage at home -- it's serviceable, but spotty at best. Verizon, on the other hand, covers pretty much every nook and cranny of the NY metro area.

--janak

[Programmer]

Their prices are certainly very aggressive, especially the unlimited GPRS pricing. I have it, and I'm reasonably happy with it, except for coverage at home -- it's serviceable, but spotty at best. Verizon, on the other hand, covers pretty much every nook and cranny of the NY metro area.

--janak

Well I'll ask around some more. I want good coverage. Not having a BlueTooth phone from Verizon really sucks.

[daS]

Well I'll ask around some more. I want good coverage. Not having a BlueTooth phone from Verizon really sucks.
In LA, the coverage is not bad except in some places on the West Side. The hills of Brentwood are awful, as are parts of Beverly Hills. I've also had problems in Newbury Park. On the other hand, the canyon roads in the Santa Monica Mountains are very well covered with microcells. The best thing is to ask people who live and work in your areas. As Janak pointed out: In California T-Mobile and Cingular share the same network, so coverage should be the same. Also, take into account the model phone people are using. The SEM T68i is a great little phone in terms of features, but it's awful for pulling in a weak signal.

[Kirk Stephens]

Well, there is still a chance it'll hit the market, as the unit is essentially finished... but I wouldn't bet huge amounts of money on it. :(

--janak

Well I'll keep my fingers crossed for the time being despite being a realist...

I would have switched carriers by now if it weren't for the fact that I go to college in Vermont and there aren't exactly a ton of options available. :|

What is the coolest phone I can get in zip code 05405?

[Janak Parekh]

What is the coolest phone I can get in zip code 05405?
8O Vermont... oh boy. I think Verizon and Sprint are your only data-enabled solutions. :cry: If you're willing to spend money, the Samsung i700 Pocket PC Phone with Verizon will give you the integration that Bluetooth would normally help with...

--janak

[daS]

If you're willing to spend money, the Samsung i700 Pocket PC Phone with Verizon will give you the integration that Bluetooth would normally help with...
Only in the sense of communications between the phone and the Pocket PC. What about a wireless headset? A wireless car hands-free kit? A wireless data link for your laptop? A wireless link to a GPS receiver? A wireless connection for printing?

Sorry, but a Pocket PC Phone still needs Bluetooth for all these things. Why are the makers of so called smart phones so dumb when it comes to providing connectivity instead of only convergence? :roll:

[beq]

^ I agree, preach it Das!

Anyways, great thread, thanks all.

But before you all exalt all GSM operators and diss CDMA, I'm still waiting on the sidelines for ATTWS to step up to bat (same situation w/ Cingular I gather)...

Also can we have more news on number portability?



P.S. OT, I guess Jason can be happy with the healthy rate of non-PPC tech talks going on, hopefully leading to a smooth launch of other digital media engine (or media thoughts or some such) co-sites. But then again PPCT itself would lose some of its flavor when restricted to PPC only?

[Janak Parekh]

Sorry, but a Pocket PC Phone still needs Bluetooth for all these things. Why are the makers of so called smart phones so dumb when it comes to providing connectivity instead of only convergence? :roll:
Relax, David. ;) I meant it in the context of this site, which concerns wireless-enabled Pocket PCs. Believe me, I'm none too happy about the lack of Bluetooth support, either. But given Kirk's situation, where there's no Bluetooth options, the most you can accomplish is an i700 with a Jabra BT adapter and/or maybe an SDIO Bluetooth card.

--janak

[JMountford]

I am going to try to get this thread back on topic as it is all over the place.

Like many others I have been waiting since the very first rumor popped up about the T608 to replace my old handset, (a Sanyo 6000). My Sanyo finally split in half a month ago and now I am down to a back up handset as I refuse to replace my phone for any of the current models.

I am super Pissed off about the lack of CDMA carrier adaptation for Bluetooth. ANd for those that are arguing when it comes to handsets for CDMA the Carriers make the call on handsets NOT the OEMs. Sprint PCS is a terrible tyrant when it comes to handsets. Sprint has a long history of having OEMs hamper handsets.

Why the whole fact that Sony Ericsson is only pulling CDMA for America should say quite a lot!!!

While Sprint PCS released months ago that they were going to carry the SE T608 it has never even been revealed to the Sprint employees who know nothing about this.

I am so tired of the lack of choice handsets that CDMA carriers offer. Heck Verizon doesn't even have a camera phone yet for goodness sakes.

I am going to get ahold of the highest up I can at Sprint PCS and threaten to cancel my contract if they do not do something. Yes I am under contract so they won't care much until I mention I am going to file Bankruptsy and I will just put them on it and they won't see another cent from me.

I will pass on the name and number of who I track down with the power. I would suggest any Sprint PCS customers that actually want to see a change pitch in to help make that change possible.

[srs]

whats the data speed like with t-mobile ?

[daS]

Relax, David. ;) I meant it in the context of this site, which concerns wireless-enabled Pocket PCs.
I'm relaxed, I'm relaxed darn it! :wink: I just finished dinner and I'm sitting with a glass of Merlot. :D

Certainly you are right about the context of this site, but this thread is about the lack of options for CDMA users that don't like the "one box" option of the Pocket PC Phone.

But given Kirk's situation, where there's no Bluetooth options, the most you can accomplish is an i700 with a Jabra BT adapter and/or maybe an SDIO Bluetooth card.
I didn't realize that the i700 (or any other PPC/PE) had SDIO. That certainly would help. But it's still not a tiny phone that you can carry everywhere but still allows your Pocket PC to connect to the Internet. :cry:

[daS]

whats the data speed like with t-mobile ?

The actual speed is about the same as a 28.8Kbps modem, but since they use data compression (especially for the web) you can expect your throughput to get as high as 48Kbps. Also, there appears to he a high latency time, so connections to email servers can take longer than expected, while the actual download speed of the mail is faster.

Like all currently available cellular-based packet switched data, you can experience slow downs when the voice network is in heavy use by others.

[srs]

The actual speed is about the same as a 28.8Kbps modem, but since they use data compression (especially for the web) you can expect your throughput to get as high as 48Kbps.

ah... well i guess thats reason enough to go with verizon atm, since it appears you can use their high speed network (144kbps) as part of your minutes, and with unlimited nights and weekends, its a pretty decent deal.

[nosmohtac]

Sprint's coverage isn't very good beyong where I live, but they have a local plan that is quite good. They have unlimited evenings and weekends like Verizon, but their evenings start at 6PM.

[daS]

ah... well i guess thats reason enough to go with verizon atm, since it appears you can use their high speed network (144kbps) as part of your minutes, and with unlimited nights and weekends, its a pretty decent deal.
I quoted what I consider "real" numbers. On Verizon, it's typically between 40 and 80 Kbps. That's certainly double GPRS, but 144 is not real except in very limited areas.

Also, I have not heard of any carrier offering packet switched data as part of their voice minutes. In fact, using a packet switched data network (1xRTT or GPRS) by the minute doesn't make sense since the carrier tracks bytes not time. In any case, if it exists at all, I don't beleive such a plan is available in California.

As it turns out, the speed is not a major problem for me. I have access to Wi-Fi hotspots with my Pocket PC, but I find that the screen size and keyboard issues are such that I don't do much wirelessly except check email and write brief replies.

But having said that, as I noted in a previous post, I would jump on a Verizon plan if only they offered a phone I could use with a wireless headset as well as my Pocket PC and/or laptop. But no Bluetooth, then no use to me! I'll have to stick to slower speeds for now.

[clinte]

....Verizon and Sprint are the carrier, not the cell phone manufacturers. They have tested dozens of BT phones that fail network testing. The manufacturers are developing BT for GSM/GPRS because of the European users.....Blame the phone manufacturers, not the carriers. There have been numerous wireless data flameouts ( Riccochet ). Carriers are not going to sell a sub-standard voice product for the sake of data......

Sounds all nice....

-but how do you know they tested BT phones? (are you Verizon/Sprint releated?)
-how can they test BT Phones if there aren't CDMA/BT phones available to test? And which cellular network did they test with?

You don't mind if i blame both Carriers and Manufactures. If both manufacturers and carriers want something they can do it imho. If Carriers want mobile phones with interesting mobile solutions (the more GPRS/CDMA packages they offer the better) like Bluetooth they can do it (ask for it=demand). That Bluetooth can do various interesting things seems to be over there heads: cable replacement applications e.g handsfree solutions, pda/notebooks-mobile phone fully mobile solutions, voice advantage solutions, automatic sync......

jmho

[clinte]

If you're willing to spend money, the Samsung i700 Pocket PC Phone with Verizon will give you the integration that Bluetooth would normally help with...
Only in the sense of communications between the phone and the Pocket PC. What about a wireless headset? A wireless car hands-free kit? A wireless data link for your laptop? A wireless link to a GPS receiver? A wireless connection for printing?

Sorry, but a Pocket PC Phone still needs Bluetooth for all these things. Why are the makers of so called smart phones so dumb when it comes to providing connectivity instead of only convergence? :roll:

It's very weird to know that car manufacturers and car market related products from co's like Visteon, Delphi, Johnson Control, Daimler Chrysler, Hitachi, Microsoft, Saab, BMW, Peugeot etc. offer or going to offer Bluetooth handsfree solutions but that Carriers like Sprint and Verizon don't offer Mobile Phones based on CDMA which incl. Bluetooth????? It's getting more weird if you know that Verizon offers Bluetooth Headsets from Jabra? BT Headsets no BT Phones?

It's good to know that more and more Operating Platforms from Microsoft support Bluetooth: Windows Mobile 2003 (PPC 2003), Windows Automotive CE, Windows CE .NET, Windows XP, SmartPhone 2003 (soon), (PPCPhone Edition?)

That there has been some interesting (recent) CDMA-Bluetooth Chip Development coming from CSR, RFMD, Silicon Wave, Murata and Broadcom could be usefull as well.

The Register: Qualcomm monoculture is 'killing American wireless':
".....The lack of Bluetooth in North America mobile phones is not due to any problems with the technology, it's due to Qualcomm....." http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/39/27975.html

Would it be that simple?. Maybe there are some points to find here but it's not Qualcomm only?

Qualcomm MSM Chipset Solutions with Bluetooth Support are MSM3300, MSM5100, MSM5500, MSM6200, MSM6250 MSM6300, MSM6XXX

[clinte]

In Japan we do have CDMA 1x and soon CDMA 1x EV-DO 2.4Mbps (late this year), But NO Mobile operators are willing to implement BlueTooth... There were only 1 CDMA BT, a SONY, but was discontinued...

CDMA technology based mobile phones with Bluetooth are/were:

-Motorola TimePort 270c: CDMA 900/1800, 2-Way Speaker Phone, Bluetooth (adapter), Voice Recorder, Voice Dialing, WAP 1.1, PIM, iTAP input
-Samsung Bluetooth PCS Phone, CDMA2000 1X handset SPH-X2500BT
-cdmaOne C413S Sony Corporation -- cdmaOne mobile phone with Bluetooth
-M11 Sharp Corporation -- W-CDMA PDA style phone with Bluetooth function
-Samsung Bluetooth PCS Phone Samsung Electronics Co., Ltd. -- cdma2000 phone for Korea.

I also saw some Motorola IDEN info mentioned in this threat: Motorola is working on what's called a "multi-mode" cell phone, Chief Technology Officer Barry West said. The phone, expected by next year, can connect using Bluetooth and cell phone networks GSM and IDEN (Integrated Dispatch Enhanced Network). IDEN is used in the United States by Nextel Communications.

CDMA 1xEV-DO vs. WiFi
http://reiter.weblogger.com/2003/01/23
http://www.smartconvergence.blogger.com.br/2003_01_19_archive.html

CDMA Development
http://wireless.ziffdavis.com/print_article/0,4281,a=38830,00.asp

Possibility could be that Sprint and Verizon will come with Mobile Phones based on PPCPhone Edition(?) and Smartphone 2003, from Hitachi and Samsung for example, which incl. Bluetooth (and EVDO)!?

[daS]

It's very weird to know that car manufacturers and car market related products from co's like Visteon, Delphi, Johnson Control, Daimler Chrysler, Hitachi, Microsoft, Saab, BMW, Peugeot etc. offer or going to offer Bluetooth handsfree solutions but that Carriers like Sprint and Verizon don't offer Mobile Phones based on CDMA which incl. Bluetooth?????
Good point - and the new cars for the 2004 model year combined with mobile phone number portability migth be what forces these carriers to start supporting their customers.

When all the new BMW and MB buyers can dump the CDMA carriers and move their phone number to a phone that supports the Bluetooth hands-free kit built into their new cars, Sprint and Verizon will have to follow to retain market share.

While the members of this site are certainly exceptions, I believe there are far more people interested in wireless hands-free then care about packet switched data speeds. CDMA/1xRTT may have an EDGE (pun intended) over GSM/GPRS in terms of speed, but very few customers use data at all.

If the FAA sticks to their deadline of November for number portability - and if the carriers don't simply ignore the rule, then next year will be very interesting for cellular users in the USA.

[clinte]

Good point - and the new cars for the 2004 model year combined with mobile phone number portability migth be what forces these carriers to start supporting their customers.

When all the new BMW and MB buyers can dump the CDMA carriers and move their phone number to a phone that supports the Bluetooth hands-free kit built into their new cars, Sprint and Verizon will have to follow to retain market share.

The Chrysler Group has announced nationwide availability of UConnect, its in-vehicle, hands- free, voice-activated communications system. The Chrysler Group is the first North American automaker to offer its customers a Bluetooth-enabled automotive application. UConnect is available as a Mopar dealer-installed offering on the following 2004 model year vehicles:

-- Chrysler - PT Cruiser, 300M, Concorde, Pacifica, Sebring Coupe, Sebring Sedan, Town & Country;

-- Dodge - Stratus Coupe, Stratus Sedan, Neon, Intrepid, Caravan, Grand Caravan, Dakota, Durango, Ram;

-- Jeep® - Liberty, Grand Cherokee.

UConnect debuts in the third quarter as a factory-installed option on the all-new 2004 Chrysler Pacifica. Factory-installation is $275. The cost for the dealer-installed version of UConnect is $299 (suggested retail price) plus labor.


:wink:

[bbarker]

Also, I have not heard of any carrier offering packet switched data as part of their voice minutes. In fact, using a packet switched data network (1xRTT or GPRS) by the minute doesn't make sense since the carrier tracks bytes not time. In any case, if it exists at all, I don't beleive such a plan is available in California.
When I first signed up for Verizon's Express Network (1xRTT) in May 2002 my data plan used my voice minutes without regard to the quantity of data. This included free nights and weekends.

Last December I had them increase my minutes per month and was surprised to find around $300 in extra charges on my January bill. They no longer offered a plan that allowed data on voice minutes so they had switched me to a per-megabyte plan without telling me. I got the charge credited but I lost the per-minute charge for data.

Since then I have cancelled the 1xRTT plan because I lost the $110 Socket cable with which I connected my phone to my Pocket PC. I still have the laptop cable but I seldom used the Express Network with my laptop. I really miss it on my Pocket PC, but rather than buy another cable I'm waiting for a Bluetooth Verizon phone.

[bbarker]

You happy with TMobile?.. I am thinking of switching to TMobile from Verizon for all the reasons listed here.
T-Mobile is decent if their coverage matches up with where you live/work. In California, T-Mobile uses Cingular's network, so that might give you a feel for how the service is there.

Their prices are certainly very aggressive, especially the unlimited GPRS pricing. I have it, and I'm reasonably happy with it, except for coverage at home -- it's serviceable, but spotty at best. Verizon, on the other hand, covers pretty much every nook and cranny of the NY metro area.
I looked into T-Mobile a while back but had to reject them because of coverage. I think the problem was that they supported only digital networks and I was doing a lot of driving into southeastern Idaho in those days, and they didn't have service there.

[Janak Parekh]

I looked into T-Mobile a while back but had to reject them because of coverage. I think the problem was that they supported only digital networks and I was doing a lot of driving into southeastern Idaho in those days, and they didn't have service there.
It's correct that they have no analog service, nor roaming. Their coverage has improved, but if you need to be in rural areas, T-Mobile is still not a choice. (Mind you, all of the cellular networks in the US should be going all-digital within the next 4-5 years; two Verizon phones are already digital-only, and eventually all of them will be.)

--janak

[daS]

It's correct that they have no analog service, nor roaming.
Just to be clear: T-Mobile has no analog roaming. They do have a roaming agreement with Cingular and I understand they will soon have one with ATTW. However, none of these GSM carriers have GSM/analog phones, so anyone that needs analog service for remote areas should avoid these three for now.

[nosmohtac]

What ever happened with ATTW? They were supposed to be teamed up with MS to build the first nationwide GSM/GPRS network. Their coverage is still less than Cingular or T-Mobile.

[Janak Parekh]

Just to be clear: T-Mobile has no analog roaming. They do have a roaming agreement with Cingular and I understand they will soon have one with ATTW. However, none of these GSM carriers have GSM/analog phones, so anyone that needs analog service for remote areas should avoid these three for now.
With respect to roaming: Yes, you're right. Ugh. I'm the one that's out of it now. ;)

Re GSM/analog, however: can't Cingular's and AT&T's GAIT phones support it? I'd imagine that they would support their legacy analog towers.

What ever happened with ATTW? They were supposed to be teamed up with MS to build the first nationwide GSM/GPRS network. Their coverage is still less than Cingular or T-Mobile.
They're building it out -- very quickly. Take a look at their website and their coverage maps.

--janak

[daS]

Can't Cingular's and AT&T's GAIT phones support it? I'd imagine that they would support their legacy analog towers.

It's my understanding that Cingular and AT&T only offer analog fall-back on their older TDMA networks.

[nosmohtac]

They're building it out -- very quickly. Take a look at their website and their coverage maps.

--janak

Do you have a good URL for this? All I could find on their site was TDMA coverage areas.

[Janak Parekh]

Here's (https://www.attws.com/general/coveragemap/map.jhtml?map=ngnn-nat.gif) the map on the AT&T website. It's the "next generation digital map". Unfortunately, it's a low-res scan, so it's hard to see the dark-orange areas, which indicate their GSM/GPRS network.

--janak