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View Full Version : Launch Date Set for Pocket PC 2003 and HP and Gateway to Launch Pocket PCs


Jason Dunn
06-11-2003, 04:00 PM
<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.computerweekly.com/articles/article.asp?liArticleID=122521&liFlavourID=1&sp=1' target='_blank'>http://www.computerweekly.com/artic...lavourID=1&sp=1</a><br /><br /></div>"Microsoft will launch its Pocket PC 2003 operating system on 23 June, and Gateway and Hewlett-Packard (HP) will announce their latest PDAs. The latest version of Pocket PC will come with improved capabilities for detecting and maintaining wireless network connections, and better performance. It will also be optimised for Intel's XScale processors. Gateway will make its debut into the handheld market alongside the Pocket PC 2003 launch. The company has embarked upon a strategy to turn its fortunes around by emphasising consumer electronics products in addition to its flagship PCs."<br /><br />Now there's something I didn't see coming - Gateway making a Pocket PC? I remember there was a hint about this a while back, but this seems to be confirmed. Moo! Here comes Gateway...

Foo Fighter
06-11-2003, 04:04 PM
It will be interesting to see what Gateway's handheld looks like. Their new desktop line looks pretty sweet. If they applied in-house designers on this project, it might carry the same theme. I hope they didn't do what Dell did by leaving the whole design up to asian contract manufacturers. The Axim is a great product...but ugly.

By the way, this article also mentions the Viewsonic V37 is coming too. Looks like this is going to be a GREAT summer for relatively low cost wireless Pocket PCs. 0X

Sven Johannsen
06-11-2003, 04:11 PM
Well, Gateway didn't make their own Tablet PC (they just silkscreened Gateway on a Mobile Computing machine and added Gateway to the boot screen). I don't really see them designing their own. Maybe it will be one of the ones that are only available in the Asian market that we periodically drool over :)

Bob Anderson
06-11-2003, 04:23 PM
This is simply fantastic news. The more manufacturers in the PPC world, the better the choice, the better the competition and ultimately a healthier marketplace for PPC in general!

Hmmm... If all that speculation is that MSFT wants to bail on the PPC platform in favor of smartphone was true, then why would more manufacturers join the group of PPC providers? Obviously there appears to be money to be made, or these enterprises wouldn't spend so much to develop devices!

Hip Hip Hooray! PPC 2003 will be announced 6/23/03. Note to self: Log on to PPC Thoughts first thing in the AM to see the juicy details!!

rlobrecht
06-11-2003, 04:32 PM
Hip Hip Hooray! PPC 2003 will be announced 6/23/03. Note to self: Log on to PPC Thoughts first thing in the AM to see the juicy details!!

You mean this isn't a daily recurring task with an alarm set for 8am? :wink:

Foo Fighter
06-11-2003, 04:33 PM
Apparently Viewsonic is already listing the V37 on their web site:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/pocket_pc_pocketpcv37.htm

Jonathon Watkins
06-11-2003, 05:02 PM
So how long does it usually take for the OEMs to have their ROM updates available? I am looking to Dell to let us have the upgrade for not too many , not too many days after the release.

Personally I like the look of the Axim.

ipaq38vette
06-11-2003, 05:20 PM
When Microsoft says that this will be xscale optomized, will the new OS run slower on any other processor? (StrongArm)

andydempsey
06-11-2003, 05:25 PM
I hope dell post a FREE ROM update. no dollars required... I've only had mine 2 weeks!

gcherian
06-11-2003, 05:27 PM
Hip Hip Hooray! PPC 2003 will be announced 6/23/03. Note to self: Log on to PPC Thoughts first thing in the AM to see the juicy details!!

You mean this isn't a daily recurring task with an alarm set for 8am? :wink:

8am ? I am in usually between 6.30 - 6.45, sipping coffee and enjoying PPCT.... :-)

gcherian
06-11-2003, 05:29 PM
Apparently Viewsonic is already listing the V37 on their web site:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/pocket_pc_pocketpcv37.htm

What I am still not sure of the the OS in V37 - it still says PPC2002, but will they release a model so close to the release of new OS...hmmm.... waiting....

szamot
06-11-2003, 05:49 PM
has anyone seen any pictures of this new digital Calf from Gateway? or who is stamping it out for them.

06-11-2003, 05:52 PM
I hope they didn't do what Dell did by leaving the whole design up to asian contract manufacturers. The Axim is a great product...but ugly.
It doesn't have to be a disaster. HP had nothing to do with the design of the h1910. Sorry, I can't remember off the top of my head which one but one of the Taiwanese manufacturers developed it and shopped it around. Supposedly Dell turned it down before HP agreed to take it on.

-Ed

06-11-2003, 05:55 PM
What I am still not sure of the the OS in V37 - it still says PPC2002, but will they release a model so close to the release of new OS...hmmm.... waiting....
As I said in the article, most people are expecting the V37 to have PPC2K3 though this hasn't been confirmed yet. It will definitely ship with the .NET Compact Framework pre-installed.

-Ed

nwarren
06-11-2003, 06:00 PM
From a UK perspective my Dell account management team have confirmed that a ROM update will be available 'later in June', but that they don't have any costs yet.

Having is believing though!

alienplantlife
06-11-2003, 06:41 PM
Jason Dunn: "Now there's something I didn't see coming - Gateway making a Pocket PC? I remember there was a hint about this a while back, but this seems to be confirmed. Moo! Here comes Gateway..."

But Gateway already carries several Pocket PC's from other manufacturer's. Will they continue selling others as well as offering their own? I wonder...

Deslock
06-11-2003, 07:12 PM
In a post at geek.com, Derek Brown (Mobile Devices Division, Microsoft) wrote:

No we will not optimize for xscale. We support the ARM instruction set.
So, unless someone is impersonating him, the computerweekly.com article is wrong about Xscale optimization.

mmidgley
06-11-2003, 07:31 PM
PDA Gerbil wrote:
> So how long does it usually take for the OEMs to have their ROM updates available?

:?: How many companies offered PocketPC 2002 upgrades for their units? Hopefully you guys don't go through what I did to get PPC2002 on my iPAQ 3650 to get PPC2003 on your newer units.

m.

Skoobouy
06-11-2003, 07:45 PM
Apparently Viewsonic is already listing the V37 on their web site:

http://www.viewsonic.com/products/pocket_pc_pocketpcv37.htm

Bleah. 36MB of useable RAM, just like before. If I wanted that kind of memory, I'd buy an older unit.

Fzara
06-11-2003, 08:09 PM
And another one of Foo's predictions comes true. Gateway has entered the market in order to compete with Dell.

Wow Foo, you're on a roll this month! 8O

Duncan
06-11-2003, 08:26 PM
"Microsoft will launch its Pocket PC 2003 operating system on 23 June

Would it be infuriatingly smug of me to say - 'told you so!'? :lol:

Fishie
06-11-2003, 08:37 PM
"Microsoft will launch its Pocket PC 2003 operating system on 23 June

Would it be infuriatingly smug of me to say - 'told you so!'? :lol:

Yes it would, but be my guest.

MonolithicDawgX
06-11-2003, 08:54 PM
What is funny to me is that if you ask viewsonic, Dell, or others who don't design their own casings for their units, they will tell you who does the work for them and help you get your own version(this would be for enterprise buying, one-offs would be too expensive). so my company is looking at creating casings for handhelds and tablets that use our own iconography, yet a company like Gateway, with a great icon with the dairy-cow look, doesn't create something unique, fun and "cool". I know that it might be easier to sell a plain, industrial looking casing to the masses, but why not use a design firm to beef it up like the phone companies do? Overall, it wouldn't be too much of an added expense, and it could really drive sales and interest in a product. Maybe they should hire me to think of these things for them!! :lol:

johncruise
06-11-2003, 09:09 PM
And another one of Foo's predictions comes true. Gateway has entered the market in order to compete with Dell.

Wow Foo, you're on a roll this month! 8O

Foo... can you (force) predict regarding all OEM's to release an update...and for free?
:lol:

Jonathon Watkins
06-11-2003, 09:15 PM
And another one of Foo's predictions comes true. Gateway has entered the market in order to compete with Dell.

Wow Foo, you're on a roll this month! 8O

Foo... can you (force) predict regarding all OEM's to release an update...and for free?
:lol:

Go Foo, Go! Please. :lol:

Any more predictions?

ctmagnus
06-11-2003, 09:18 PM
Foo... can you (force) predict regarding all OEM's to release an update?

Foo... Use the Force! :mrgreen:

06-11-2003, 09:20 PM
In a post at geek.com, Derek Brown (Mobile Devices Division, Microsoft) wrote:
No we will not optimize for xscale. We support the ARM instruction set.
So, unless someone is impersonating him, the computerweekly.com article is wrong about Xscale optimization.

As I understand it, the OS itself isn't XScale optimised. However, developers will be able to write XScale optimised apps that will run only under PPC2K3.

Marc Zimmermann
06-11-2003, 09:44 PM
As I understand it, the OS itself isn't XScale optimised. However, developers will be able to write XScale optimised apps that will run only under PPC2K3.
They can already do so on Pocket PC 2002. Intel had some information about optimization in a MDC 2003 conference session. Data- and CPU-bound apps (such as Media Player) can probably benefit most from optimization while simpler code like Calendar or Calculator have not much potential for speeding up.

steddyman
06-11-2003, 10:19 PM
I think its fair to say that upgrades will be available for most and probably all of the Pocket PC devices on the market.

The reason only a few of the main suppliers provided upgrades to Pocket PC 2002 from 2000 was for two very good reasons:-

1. PPC2000 supported MIPS, SH3 and ARM processors. PPC2002 only supports the ARM based processor, so only devices which had one (like the iPaq's) were upgradeable.

2. Not many PPC2000 devices stored the ROM in Flash. A lot of devices had fixed ROM's which could not be upgraded. As part of the specification for PPC2002 Microsoft dictated the devices must be Flash upgradable so they could supply service packs and future upgrades.

The new iPaq 19xx series devices to be released using PPC2003 at the end of this month only have 32mb of ROM. This indicates that any device with 32MB of ROM, which is Flash upgradable (all of them) and has an ARM based processor (again all of them) can be upgraded.

MS will sell the upgrades to the OEM's for a very low price given the volumes and the OEM's will probably sell them for around $25. This means they made a tidy profit on software sales too.

One final point (sorry for the rant). The .NET CF is in ROM on EVERY PPC2003 device. There have been a few posts to the contrary but the Microsoft Partner site makes this statement:-

.NET Compact Framework The .NET Compact Framework is in ROM in all new Pocket PC 2003 devices (and can be installed in RAM in Pocket PC 2000 and Pocket PC 2002 devices).

Thats it :)

Steddy

TawnerX
06-11-2003, 11:51 PM
Why would I want to waste a huge chunk of my memory for .net CF when I have no use for it yet?

Jason Dunn
06-12-2003, 12:02 AM
Why would I want to waste a huge chunk of my memory for .net CF when I have no use for it yet?

Because there will be many developers making .Net CF applications, and the only way to ensure 100% compatibility is to make sure it's in the ROM and, thus, ever Pocket PC 2003 device will be compatible.

Besides, it's not like you're paying extra for that ROM. ;-) It's also not as big as you think...

EvilOne
06-12-2003, 12:04 AM
Why would I want to waste a huge chunk of my memory for .net CF when I have no use for it yet?

Well if its already in ROM, then you don't loose any memory. And well if more programs start getting written in .NET CF, then you will have to install it if you want to use their application(s). But until then, no one is saying you have to install it if you aren't going to use it.

johncruise
06-12-2003, 12:08 AM
Why would I want to waste a huge chunk of my memory for .net CF when I have no use for it yet?

You got it! This are things to consider before anybody would want to upgrade to ppc2k3. I myself is checking if .net for ppc2k3 have generic usb support as listed on MS site (generic usb printer/msd/mouse/keyboard/etc drivers). If not... it may not be worth the upgrade to me (my E-200 has no x-scale CPU so no benefit there to say the least).

Fzara
06-12-2003, 02:30 AM
Searching through PPCT for Foo's list of predictions, I found a link in which news was suggesting Gateway might be entering the Pocket PC market.

Link here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=12310&highlight=)

I guess i'll have to find Foo's prediction list for 2003 to see if he came up with the list before this news was predicted.

UPDATE: I finally found Foo's 2003 prediction list after searching with wildcards here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6754&highlight=prediction%2A+2003).

It also seems like I cant find his prediction about Gateway entering the market in order to gain marketshare and to compete with Dell. I know i'm not hallucinating...or perhaps I saw the prediction on PIC.

TawnerX
06-12-2003, 02:49 AM
Why would I want to waste a huge chunk of my memory for .net CF when I have no use for it yet?

Because there will be many developers making .Net CF applications, and the only way to ensure 100% compatibility is to make sure it's in the ROM and, thus, ever Pocket PC 2003 device will be compatible.

Besides, it's not like you're paying extra for that ROM. ;-) It's also not as big as you think...

Yes it will be a computing nirvana and there will be many developers that goes to heaven. Good for them.

In the meantime, are you saying I have to sacrifice memory space to support some sort of corporate strategy which will not bring me immediate benefit whatsoever? All with MY paid computing resources?

and what exactly is "not as big as I think"? what size was I thinking you think? 1KB? 100KB? 1MB?

what is the CLEAR benefit that user can immediately understand upon sacrificing computing resources that otherwise can be allocated for more immediate concern?

MS should put it out as downloadable, if it is that appealing they wouldn't need to shove it down user throat and taking up limited computing resources. Unless they are handing out freebie coupon for everybody's RAM upgrade, what they do is pretty dubious...

Jason Dunn
06-12-2003, 03:05 AM
In the meantime, are you saying I have to sacrifice memory space to support some sort of corporate strategy which will not bring me immediate benefit whatsoever? All with MY paid computing resources?

It's really not much different than VB runtimes that we have to install into RAM now to use many of the freeware/shareware programs out there. I'd venture a guess that upwards of 50% of all Pocket PC applications are based on VB not a variant of C. Developers who do VB programming usually have to include the VB files (about 600 KB I think) in their application, even if the end-user already has them. Having the .NET CF in ROM means you don't have to waste precious RAM space - don't you understand that?

That means more download time for you, more strain on the servers dishing up those files, etc. It also means user confusion if they install the program and are presented with "You are installing a file that is already installed". It's just ugly all around - it's not elegant, and it's not consumer or enterprise friendly. Getting something "out of the box" is beneficial to everyone. It would be like having the Macromedia Flash player in ROM - it's a great thing to have because it simplifies things for users.

MS should put it out as downloadable, if it is that appealing they wouldn't need to shove it down user throat and taking up limited computing resources. Unless they are handing out freebie coupon for everybody's RAM upgrade, what they do is pretty dubious...

That would be a losing strategy, which is why you're not in charge, people much smarter than you or I are. :wink:

Besides which, it goes in ROM, not in RAM, so you don't even understand the basis of your angry objection... :roll: If it was in RAM, you could uninstall it, right?

This is much ado about nothing - can't you find something else to complain about, like the local sports team? :lol:

ctmagnus
06-12-2003, 03:08 AM
In the meantime, are you saying I have to sacrifice memory space to support some sort of corporate strategy which will not bring me immediate benefit whatsoever? All with MY paid computing resources?

and what exactly is "not as big as I think"? what size was I thinking you think? 1KB? 100KB? 1MB?

MS should put it out as downloadable, if it is that appealing they wouldn't need to shove it down user throat and taking up limited computing resources. Unless they are handing out freebie coupon for everybody's RAM upgrade, what they do is pretty dubious...

It's in ROM, not RAM so you wouldn't really be able to use the space anyways other than for safe store or whatever you want to call it. And I believe it's in the vicinity of 4MB.

ctmagnus
06-12-2003, 03:10 AM
This is much ado about nothing - can't you find something else to complain about, like the local sports team? :lol:

Yeah, complain about the Flames! :mrgreen:

Foo Fighter
06-12-2003, 03:23 AM
It also seems like I cant find his prediction about Gateway entering the market in order to gain marketshare and to compete with Dell. I know i'm not hallucinating...or perhaps I saw the prediction on PIC.

If not, we're both hallucinating because I could swear I did make a prediction about Gateway entering the PPC market. Must be in some later posting.

So far I haven't done too bad. Many of my predictions have come to pass (or will shortly).

* I was right about $299 Pocket PCs with Bluetooth hitting the market by Q3 (and beating PalmOS vendors at introducting affordable wireless PDAs)

* Sony is entering the handheld gaming space, but it probably won't be running on PalmOS.

* Handspring is no more. I've been boasting that prediction for the last two years.

* Palm did introduce a lower priced Zire with color screen (but not yet the $149 model I predicted).

* Sony did beat Palm to market with a cheaper color handheld.

* Dell didn't grab the PDA market like analysts expected, and a significant amount of Dell's marketshare DID come at from Toshiba and other PPC vendors.

* And Toshiba is at the bottom of the deck, by all accounts.

TawnerX
06-12-2003, 04:43 AM
It's really not much different than VB runtimes that we have to install into RAM now to use many of the freeware/shareware programs out there. I'd venture a guess that upwards of 50% of all Pocket PC applications are based on VB not a variant of C. Developers who do VB programming usually have to include the VB files (about 600 KB I think) in their application, even if the end-user already has them. Having the .NET CF in ROM means you don't have to waste precious RAM space - don't you understand that?

no, I dont' understand that, unless you know for a fact that CF will not short change me in limited low end models NAND ROM by juggling various built in apps from ROM somewhere else, or diminishing the amount filestore in current PPC2k2 high end.

in other word you just have to show documentation that PPC2K2 memory uptake == PPC2K3 + .net CF memory uptake.


That would be a losing strategy, which is why you're not in charge, people much smarter than you or I are. :wink:

Do I look like somebody in charge of Microrosoft or a PPC owner? &lt;wink>
Do I look like somebody who likes some people who thinks they are smart just stuffing stuff on my computer without explaining why it is good for me? I am stupid, so better explain to me in straight up language. dancing around or whitewashing the issues just going pass through me.... &lt;wink, wink>

I rather decide how to use my computing resource that I paid for thanks. If microsoft want to expand product strategy, they can do it on their own hardware, or prove it to me that the immediate benefit is so compelling that I rather have it than not. Otherwise, they can put it on their download server until something usefull come along needing that run time.

where is the immediate benefit? can somebody show it to me?


Besides which, it goes in ROM, not in RAM, so you don't even understand the basis of your angry objection... :roll: If it was in RAM, you could uninstall it, right?

ROM- my file store
RAM- low end NAND base device, plus RAM run time space for the CF.

so the original question was pretty simple:
-how big is it really?
-what is the immediate benefit to user?

PS. are you saying the entire "download" software industry for PPC is "doom" because user can't handle download and installing stuff? interesting.



This is much ado about nothing - can't you find something else to complain about, like the local sports team? :lol:

I am not on Hail Jason club yet. Maybe I'll do it in about a month or so like the rest of this site inhabitant. I need to acclimatize to the cult.

Jason Dunn
06-12-2003, 05:02 AM
where is the immediate benefit? can somebody show it to me?

There isn't one, just like there isn't an immediate benefit to most technological advancements. Small steps = big improvements over time. I don't know if you're really too myopic to see it, or just being stubborn to provoke me. Probably both. :roll:

:bangin:

Getting .NET programming tools out there didn't result in amazing programs being developed overnight for free - but I've seen some impressive things done with XML, .NET, and Web services that make me believe this is a good long-term move for Microsoft and developers. By making Pocket PCs "1st class .NET Citizens", Microsoft is saying "Hey developers, you can target your applications at Pocket PCs too, with only a few extra lines of code." (Although there are certainly some limitations to the .NET CF, hence the "compact" part).

Think about it like this: Pocket PCs, indeed most PDAs and mobile devices, don't matter on the large scale of things. If I contact my bank and say "I want to access my banking data on my Pocket PC", they'd stare at me blankly. But what if they had a .NET-based system in place where any device could access the same data, in a rich manner? And what if rolling out that application was as simple as "Any device that the .NET framework on it can access this data?" By making Pocket PCs more or less on equal footing with desktop PCs, Microsoft is saying "Anything that runs Windows can do the .NET mambo." That's an important message for them to communicate. More muscle behing the platform = a more robust platform = more devices = cheapter prices = thriving Pocket PC world. Connect the dots!

You're too short-sighted to see that, which is why you're not grasping why this is a good thing. You don't need to belong to my cult to see that. :wink: :lol:

Robert Levy
06-12-2003, 05:07 AM
It's in ROM, not RAM so you wouldn't really be able to use the space anyways other than for safe store or whatever you want to call it. And I believe it's in the vicinity of 4MB.

More like 1.5 MB

Robert Levy
06-12-2003, 05:18 AM
Ok... so here's the deal with .NET... it allows many many thousands of Windows developers to leverage their existing skills to start building Pocket PC apps. It enables existing Pocket PC developers to leverage their existing skills to build better apps faster.

Microsoft is essentially making a bet that a large percentage of users will download and install some app written in .NET to their device (and my personal opinion is that the odds of this are in their favor).

So they put the 1.5MB .NET runtime in ROM in order to *not* take up a user's precious space. If it was not in ROM, then users who want to run .NET programs (which will soon be a large percentage of users) on their device would have to install the framework into RAM - which would be eating up space they *could* actually do other things with.

If MS and OEMs have found ways to fit more stuff into the same amount of ROM then what's the problem?

TawnerX
06-12-2003, 05:26 AM
You're too short-sighted to see that, which is why you're not grasping why this is a good thing. You don't need to belong to my cult to see that. :wink: :lol:

Either I am short sighted, or you again, failed to show immediate benefit to average user by talking about some vagues benefit terms like "impressive thing to be done", "making .PPC first class citizen", " if they had a ...".

Let's put it this crudely: Are you cheerleading Microsoft .net strategy by putting forth some hypothetical and dreamy situation, or do you really protecting readers and PPC user interest by taking interest on how computing resource decission should be maximize to user end.

if the later, again I am confused, how all that can be reconciled. I am stupid, and I need "REAL" examples, not dot.com buzzwords.

and yes, I am still wondering if PPC2k3+ .net CF will take exactly the same or less memory resource than PPC2k2.

Robert Levy
06-12-2003, 05:31 AM
and yes, I am still wondering if PPC2k3+ .net CF will take exactly the same or less memory resource than PPC2k2.

Looking at the rumored lists of upgradeable devices should answer that for you.

TawnerX
06-12-2003, 05:38 AM
which rumor list? afaik all them only mention which models possibly will be upgradable immediately. (ie. inferring that those model has the memory capacity to accept the upgrade)

but none of them ever mention precisely what is the memory size of the upgrade or if the questioned combo is will take the same or less resource then 2k2.

Jason Dunn
06-12-2003, 05:53 AM
Let's put it this crudely: Are you cheerleading Microsoft .net strategy by putting forth some hypothetical and dreamy situation, or do you really protecting readers and PPC user interest by taking interest on how computing resource decission should be maximize to user end.

I know a few .Net programmers, and they're thrilled to pieces about the .NET CF being in ROM. Happy programmers = more apps for the platform = real, tangible benefits to end users. Stop thinking in such limited terms. When we found out that Gateway was going to be making a Pocket PC, were you screaming "How will this benefit ME TODAY?" I sure hope not! Quit being so self-centered. This isn't the mookie123/TawnerX show.

I can't make my points any more explicit than I already have - what you're asking for is impossible. Do you want me to tell you what having the .NET CF in ROM will make Pocket Inbox load 20% faster? Ok, sure, whatever makes you happy... :roll: Get your head out of the sand and think a little more "big picture" please.

This whole argument is asinine anyway - who the hell cares if 1.5 MB of ROM is being taken up by an app anyway? As many people have already pointed out, it's in ROM, not RAM, so at WORST you're losing a portion of the Flash-based ROM storage that large ROM units like the 5450 have. Is losing 1.5 MB of 19.77 a big deal? Maybe to some, but there are some smart people at Microsoft who are betting that this is a smart move that's healthy for the platform.

Give me one good reason why it's a BAD idea to have the .NET CF in ROM! You babble about "controlling your device" - you've never been able to do that anyway! Don't want MS Reader? Too bad buddy, you're getting it anyway, even if you don't read eBooks. But you can be damn sure the small and struggling MS eBooks industry would be dead and buried if Microsoft couldn't give publishers a promise that said "100% of our Pocket PCs can read eBooks". Do you see the parallel? Can you connect the dots? It's very much the same concept...

TawnerX
06-12-2003, 06:19 AM
I know a few .Net programmers, and they're thrilled to pieces about the .NET CF being in ROM. Happy programmers = more apps for the platform = real, tangible benefits to end users. Stop thinking in such limited terms.

you have NOT give reasonable explanation why anybody should be glad there is 1.5MB material taking up computing resource aside from talking vague benefits to end user like "making programmers happy" ...

I am not sure what PPC you own, but 1.5mb is still pretty big chunk of memory, in contrast to your previous claim 'it's no big deal, forget about it.' size.


When we found out that Gateway was going to be making a Pocket PC, were you screaming "How will this benefit ME TODAY?" I sure hope not! Quit being so self-centered. This isn't the mookie123/TawnerX show.

what are you trying to say? We all should think of long term microsoft's well being, and not asking why a device bought with hard earned money is being exploited by Microsoft in particular way?

or are you just trying to say "look I am the cool sys admin" look how powerfull I am. I can divulge all your account transaction. (wheew.. was I glad terminating that account. so what else are you using user data for? )



I can't make my points any more explicit than I already have - what you're asking for is impossible. Do you want me to tell you what having the .NET CF in ROM will make Pocket Inbox load 20% faster? Ok, sure, whatever makes you happy... :roll: Get your head out of the sand and think a little more "big picture" please.

what big picture? you haven't even described a tangible working benefit that is compelling enough for somebody to stuff a 1.5MB run time, and all of a sudden you are talking about "big picture" how it will transform handheld computing?

I dont' know about you, but I rather see interesting working example and leave the big picture story for computer historian to decide. There are plenty of "big picture" talk that turns out to be total giberrish. "Java", "hailstorm" etc.

so, all I am asking is, where is the REAL and tangible reason that worth 1.5MB of space. And no, that is not a trivial size.

They are fairly simple questions.

othwerwise, I like to keep my memory for something else and have the 1.5Mb runtime as download thanks.



This whole argument is asinine anyway - who the hell cares if 1.5 MB of ROM is being taken up by an app anyway? As many people have already pointed out, it's in ROM, not RAM, so at WORST you're losing a portion of the Flash-based ROM storage that large ROM units like the 5450 have. Is losing 1.5 MB of 19.77 a big deal? Maybe to some, but there are some smart people at Microsoft who are betting that this is a smart move that's healthy for the platform.


Give me one good reason why it's a BAD idea to have the .NET CF in ROM!

because I have better use of that 1.5MB ROM then a code that has no benefit to me.

You babble about "controlling your device" - you've never been able to do that anyway! Don't want MS Reader? Too bad buddy, you're getting it anyway, even if you don't read eBooks. But you can be damn sure the small and struggling MS eBooks industry would be dead and buried if Microsoft couldn't give publishers a promise that said "100% of our Pocket PCs can read eBooks". Do you see the parallel? Can you connect the dots? It's very much the same concept...

yes, I see the parallel, you don't give a damned at all. For all you care, if Microsoft puts a 2.5 MB worth of Coke and Pepsi video commercial you would just say the same thing. probably find some 'asinine' reason to justify why user shouldn't give a thought what's on their machine.

Abba Zabba
06-12-2003, 06:27 AM
How bout we get off our high rant horses :roll:

Jason Dunn
06-12-2003, 06:43 AM
How bout we get off our high rant horses :roll:

Yeah. Sorry. TawnerX has been given a 24 hour "cooling off" period...and I'm just going to go to bed now. What a huge waste of time this whole exchange was. It's like someone getting angry about the lack of benefits for the sky being blue...it's not like we can change it. :lol:

jlp
06-12-2003, 05:28 PM
Don't worry Jason.

I too don't agree with every opinion, whether yours or others, and that's fine with me. Not everybody agrees with all of my opinions, and that's fine with me.

TawnerX needs to understand that and accept it too. I know it's not always easy :wink:.

OTOH I already downloaded 2 apps that rely on and installed in my RAM .NET CF components.

Chances are that sooner or later TawnerX will also try/buy an app that will use .NET CF. And that will be immediate benefit for him as well to already have these components already installed in ROM.

Foo Fighter
06-12-2003, 05:31 PM
What is it with everyone behaving so combative lately? Does the impending release of PPC 2003 have people on edge or something? :|

steddyman
06-12-2003, 09:09 PM
The BIG benefit of the .NET CF in ROM is that a lot more developers will use it.

This means more high quality applications for the Pocket PC released in a shorter timeframe.

We develop all our application in Native C due to the limitation of VB on the device. Application take an age to write that perform something complicated and are prone to errors.

.NET CF addresses these issues in spades and will mean much more robust applications released much quicker.

Everybody happy.

Fzara
06-13-2003, 08:44 AM
I vote this post be put into the Hall of Flame and Shame.

Heh. And Foo, don't worry about the Gateway prediction thing. Just have it ready for the next January 3rd, when the community asks how Foo's predictions held off.

I say we put a PPCT counter till June 23rd, for the next OS to be released.

FredMurphy
06-13-2003, 02:49 PM
This thread is indeed getting a bit stressed. Let me have a go at explaining this to TawnerX and see if I can get though...

The 1.5MB you've "lost" is ROM. You couldn't use it for anything else anyway. You've lost nothing.

In six months time you will probably have quite a few applications installed that are using the .NET CF. Lots of programmers (myself included) will be using this 'cos it's great. Let's say you've got three. They can all share this 1.5MB of framework, potentially saving you 4.5MB of your RAM at the expense of 1.5MB of ROM you couldn't use anyway. You've gained 4.5MB - not lost 1.5MB.

It may be a few months before you get these benefits but the benefits are there. If you still don't see it, you probably never will. And you can't change it anyway.

EvilOne
06-13-2003, 03:11 PM
In six months time you will probably have quite a few applications installed that are using the .NET CF. Lots of programmers (myself included) will be using this 'cos it's great. Let's say you've got three. They can all share this 1.5MB of framework, potentially saving you 4.5MB of your RAM at the expense of 1.5MB of ROM you couldn't use anyway. You've gained 4.5MB - not lost 1.5MB.


Umm, not exactly, the .NET CF gets installed once and only once. Each application does not install its own version. So you either lose 1,5 MB of RAM (like I have now!) or you lose nothing (because it is in ROM).

GoConnect
06-15-2003, 06:56 AM
Interesting the PPC is becoming more and more "consumerised" as prices fall and as more suppliers join the market. Next to follow will be killer consumer applications. With the PPC's Windows OS being far more of an open platform than Symbian, there will be a massive battle in the market place ahead of us, Symbian versus Windows for handheld devices. One day, Nokia may have to have a PPC Phone. I understand MS is keen to use the PPC to create a mobile media industry. And certainly the PPC is a far better device in form factor than the Symbian phones in displaying mobile entertainment media. The battle is becoming more and more interesting.