Little Orphan Pocket PC [Archive] - Thoughts Media Forums

Jason Dunn

06-09-2003, 07:34 PM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column030609.htm' target='_blank'>http://www.writingonyourpalm.net/column030609.htm</a><br /><br /></div>"Microsoft's latest revision to the Pocket PC platform is disappointing to say the least. Is the Pocket PC a casualty of Microsoft's bid for the Smartphone market? Longtime readers probably think I'm schizophrenic. They may be right. But just as I bashed Palm around this time last year, now it's Microsoft's turn. Microsoft is set to announce Pocket PC 2003 this month, an update to their PDA operating system. The update sports some much needed changes, a completely new engine under the hood, but is more notable for what it's not than what it is. And if this sounds like I'm talking about PalmOS 5.0, welcome to déjà vu-ville..."<br /><br />Jeff Kirvin has a rather controversial article up that I'm sure will generate some lively discussion. Give it a read and tell me what you think - is Jeff right?

ricksfiona

06-09-2003, 07:39 PM

I can live without a GUI update if the underpinnings of the OS are made that much more stable and faster. I also like the new network/wireless setup. The current one is pretty bad.

The only thing I would like to see is a higher resolution screen. The 320x320 screen on the new Palms are REALLY nice. I'm still quite happy with the current resolution, but I hate to see Palm get a leg up on my IPAQ. :mrgreen:

thomas1973

06-09-2003, 07:49 PM

I am not happy with the current screen resolution :evil: ! A support for higher resolution would be great, then the iPaq's 3,8" screen would really do some good. It would also improve the reading experience, and allow smaller fonts for footnotes, small informative icons and so on. It would also greatly improve the PPC as a photo album - especially if they could also display more color.

Thomas.

trachy

06-09-2003, 07:50 PM

I can live without a GUI update if the underpinnings of the OS are made that much more stable and faster.

I agree, but I have to wonder just how much better those underpinnings are, if they didn't put forth the relatively small amount of effort to update the GUI.

I don't think the author's musing about PPC going the way of the Newton will come true. I know MS might not want to pit PPC against Tablets, but they need to be more concerned with Palm at this point. They're gaining market share, but they have yet to take the lead.

jpaq

06-09-2003, 07:56 PM

Jeff has some interesting theories here, but certain things need to be considered, and addressed if what he is saying is true,

- If Tablet PC's are to be downsized and made "Pocketable" they will also need to to become "instant on" and have decent power consumption or we'll have handhelds that waste half of their hour and a half battery life on boot up.

- If Smartphones are to be the new handhelds, somebody has got to do something about input methods. Tapping the keyboard on a Pocket PC is not without flaws, but pressing the 9 key 26 times to get the letter I want is much, much worse. Some will say thay there are predictive syntax programs that make this easier. Tried it. Not worth it. Especially not with proper names.

Give me a flip phone with a Pocket PC like OS and usable versions of Word and Excel, and we're there.

Cortex

06-09-2003, 07:59 PM

what worse that being a total geek???
a sucker.....

pocket 2003 will be very lame

ms is doing what palm just did -- coasting on their product.
innovation will occur in 2-3 years.

HTK

06-09-2003, 08:06 PM

Microsoft is sure not dumb, so if PPC is freezing in matters of updates, smartphones are coming to shock every other cell phone, and even more, once a palm user get a smartphone he will surely dispose the Palm to focus only on his new Windows CE powered device and eliminate that extra weight.
Microsoft knows what to do for their share on all markets, but yes, right now it is not cool for ppc lovers like us.

pro_worm

06-09-2003, 08:09 PM

The article is right.
I recently purchased a t68i (released a yeart ago) - it's no smartphone, but it's slow and primitve PIM apps have already supplanted my Pocket PC in cuch daily chores as contact management and daily calander. And that is simply because it is smaller, lighter, and actually has a very practical use - it's a phone.
Where does my big bulky iPAQ fit in this equation? No where, really. While it's nice to be able to play Simcity 2000 anywhere at any time, that advantage will quickly evaporate as smartphones become faster and better. Currently, a wide collection of excellent software and games exist for the PPC, and that is why I will be buying a new one this month. Yet, if current trends cotnue, my second iPAQ could very well be my last.

Shaun Stuart

06-09-2003, 08:10 PM

I would have to agree with everything Jeff Kirvin has said. From what I have read Pocket PC 2003 will be a dissapointment. I am sure it will be faster and the wireless capabilities will be a real bonus, but I owned a HP545 back in the days when Pocket PC 2000 was released, since then I have owned another 3 PDAs and they had to be Pocket PCs. Unfortunately nothing significant has changed.

The idea that Palm has nearly caught up is something I do agree with - When you compare the development of the Palm OS with the Pocket PC, Palm have made (and needed to make) huge improvements in the last 2 years while the Pocket PC has remained pretty much the same - the Pocket Outlook features are looking pretty dated now - most people rely on thirdparty software to give them what they want - and Pocket Office is a joke. The integration of a "reset free" landscape mode was a must for me but it looks like this will not be happening.

It may have helped if Microsoft had made it clear to everyone that the 2003 upgrade would be minor adjustments only - I think the lack of announcement has hyped up the rumours to the point that eveyone will be dissapointed.

I hope I am wrong and Microsoft has got something huge up its sleeve but based on what I have read my next PDA does not have to be a Pocket PC.

lurch

06-09-2003, 08:11 PM

I kind've agree with him about the Pocket PC being stuck between a Tablet PC and a smartphone, and thus the possible internal pressure not to compete with themselves.

Also, the new CE 4.2 has a huge effect on many platforms apart from Pocket PCs, and so that's probably what Microsoft was focusing on the most.. "getting it right" where it's going to affect the most products. I do wish they would've spent some more time updating some of the "little" things on a Pocket PC that would've made usability much better and cooler.

The new engine, however, is quite cool, and it'll make things move MUCH faster!!! Does that apply to me personally? Maybe. The only scenario I can think of where increased speed matters is when I try to listen to MP3s while playing a graphics intensive game at the same time.

Overall, I think it's a hidden good thing, but unfortunately we tend to judge things by the realistically "insignificant" features we like most.

ppcsurfr

06-09-2003, 08:12 PM

Well, I remember very well before that I said I wouldn't upgrade to PPC2002 beause the only thing I felt they changed were the icons and some minor features... little did I know that once I held one in my hands I wouldn't want to turn back to PPC2000.

I think it will be similar here... We might say PPC2003 is nothing much... but when we hear aout other people's experience with it... things might just change...

That might be the surprise in the package...

I know there are several things I really like about the new OS...

Particularly the ones in the Inbox, Media Player, and IE of the PPC 2003.

Mabuhay ~ Carlo (ppcsurfr)

PJE

06-09-2003, 08:14 PM

If, as it seems, PPC2K3 is a under the surface improvement to PPC2K2 (which is very welcome) why didn't they at least provide the option for on-the-fly landscape/portrait switching and different resolutions? The only reason I can think of is that the PocketPC programming team is VERY small as all they have managed to do in the last few years is port much the same applications onto the updated 4.2 kernal... Landscape and resolution changes would mean they would actually have to write/modify application code! :wink:

Seriously, I feel it would make a gret deal of commercial sense for WinCE applications to be as far as possible resolution/orientation independant so they can run on the widest range of products from Smartphones through PDAs to mini-tablets. PocketInformant on a SmartPhone anyone?

The article's referance to PalmOS5 is interesting as PalmOS5 was at least trying to get the ARM CPU to replace the DraganBall. PPC2K3 has set it's sights much lower... Hopefully PPC2k4 will involve a more substantial reworking of the applications.

The way this is going my next machine will be a landscape Sony Clie (If such a beast materializes) or Sharp. Which would be a shame given the amount of money I have invested in PocketPC software.

My 2c.

PJE

Shaun Stuart

06-09-2003, 08:14 PM

Paragon

06-09-2003, 08:25 PM

Whether MS is behind Pocket PC for now and the foreseeable future is a tough call for most. When you see what appears to be a lack of enthusiasm on their part with minor improvements in OS upgrades, it only reinforces those thoughts for many. I think this is a very dangerous move on Microsoft's part. I think they are now in a spot where they MUST come out and show that they are behind the platform otherwise this feeling is going to grow even wider. If you talk to people at Microsoft they say they are committed. I just think they need to prove it by putting out better upgrades, and showing more support for the platform. Without doing this just breeds more wonder in peoples minds....I think.

Dave

bdeli

06-09-2003, 08:39 PM

I will have to agree with what Jeff said. One thing which I cannot understand is all the secrecy invloved and NDA's so that nobody knows when PPC 2003 will be released or else what is included in this release. Take a look at Palm - they have already announced that OS6 is in the making and will be out by year end. Does this mean that they will be loosing sales because of their announcement?

So, this new minor upgrade is based on .net - so how come it is not even included in the OS? Is it not already a pain in the a** to install apps like POQuick Money, My Last Cigarette etc which use the .NET Framework?

Time to retire my WinCE devices - better start playing a bit more with my Tungsten.

cmchavez

06-09-2003, 08:51 PM

Where does my big bulky iPAQ fit in this equation? No where, really. While it's nice to be able to play Simcity 2000 anywhere at any time, that advantage will quickly evaporate as smartphones become faster and better. Currently, a wide collection of excellent software and games exist for the PPC, and that is why I will be buying a new one this month. Yet, if current trends cotnue, my second iPAQ could very well be my last.

Man, if the above stuff is true, then I gotta get myself another job and start making more money. To think, I bought an iPaq 3950 for the PIM and scheduling, plus being able to use it to play mp3's! I should've been looking at the PPC's that are the best to play games on instead. 8O

Seriously though, my big requests for included updates would be better ActiveStink stability/reliability, improved Word/Excel features, and better application management (ala vBar or wisBar). :!:

Perry Reed

06-09-2003, 09:10 PM

If Tablet PC's are to be downsized and made "Pocketable" they will also need to to become "instant on" and have decent power consumption or we'll have handhelds that waste half of their hour and a half battery life on boot up.

I've argued, actually, that Tablets should become more "pocketable" including incorporating much of the Pocket PC UI on smaller screens in portait mode (but still retaining the standard Win XP interface in landscape mode, or for apps that don't support the "second" interface). My inspiration for this is the Media Center PCs, which support a second interface (for those apps that support it) for use on a TV with a remote control from across the room. Seems like a similar second UI could be done on the Tablets.

The Tablets also ought to be smaller than the current models, more like the size of my old Jornada 820 HPC.

And instant-on is a must.

Bob Anderson

06-09-2003, 09:11 PM

It is very interesting... in one hand people are complaining about the potential "lack of change" in the PPC O/S and lamenting that MSFT is headed the way of Palm, with regard to the handheld/pocket computer market, then they ask "Why is MSFT being so quiet/secretive/ "x" about this upgrade.

First off, I'm convinced we don't have the full story... i.e. all of the screen shots we've seen don't seem to show everything, and secondly, we don't know how developer's have been trained to take advantage of the new .NET core on the PPC platform. (I'll let your suspicion run wild, but could it be possible that MSFT will release dowloadable versions of office apps, or include them with the next version of Office? concept similar to Pocket Streets?)

Secondly, this change, from Win CE to .NET is, in my mind, HUGE. Sure, the GUI isn't changed, but the engine is being replaced. I bet that the changes and structure of the future is on stronger ground after this than it ever was before.

Finally, don't believe everything you hear! I'm not sure where these sources are getting their info., but until we know the final product, let's not get ourselves into full-bore MSFT bashing just yet! MSFT always manages to surprise quite a large chunk of their customers with everything new. I don't know the day this product will be released, but I'll be surfing my way to PocketPC Thoughts, on that day, to find out what I'm really going to have access to!

krisbrown

06-09-2003, 09:15 PM

Another huge advantage the smartphone has is subsidy, nearly everyone will buy one at a vastly reduced price.

My Nokia 7650 was 60 dollars, the SPV cost me around 200 dollars.

If I had moved up to a slightly higher contract (I'm a scrooge on the 15 dollars a month tight ass plans) I would have got them free.

whydidnt

06-09-2003, 09:22 PM

jpaq

06-09-2003, 09:37 PM

If Smartphones are to be the new handhelds, somebody has got to do something about input methods. Tapping the keyboard on a Pocket PC is not without flaws, but pressing the 9 key 26 times to get the letter I want is much, much worse.

Try the symbian OS Sony Ericcson P800 smartphone - it has handwriting recognition + Camera + Bluetooth + its not much bigger than the SPV (MS Smartphone).

I would consider that if I had not been recently burned by four (yes 4) different iterations of the t68 model. 1 T68m and 3 T68i phones all had persistent connection problem, system freezes, and generally poor reception. The Symbian OS might fix the freezes. Maybe even the connection issues. Unless Sony/Ericsson has done something about the reception of their phones, I'll stick with my Nokia 3650 (Symbian OS) for now.

Kevin Daly

06-09-2003, 10:01 PM

From everything I've read it's not entirely true to say the Compact Framework won't be included in PPC 2003 - while the decisions whether to install it in ROM will be up to the OEMs, it looks set to be provided as part of the standard feature set.
By vastly improving the platform for developers, the CF will promote software development (especially connected as I've pointed out before).
And it's software that sells, boys and girls.
So STOP WHINING!

Sslixtis

06-09-2003, 10:01 PM

Hello, my name is Sslixtis and I'm a PDA Addict... Sorry MS, I have NO brand loyalty, if Palm makes a better PDA I'm outta here. And, the way the two OSs are going it looks as if I have 1-2 more PPCs to buy before it is time to switch to Palm. :lol:

Maybe it is time I started looking at Palm Stock!?! :jester:

Cheers!

possmann

06-09-2003, 10:12 PM

TrojanUO

06-09-2003, 10:23 PM

jpaq

06-09-2003, 10:25 PM

Issue number three (see my previous posts for 1 and 2) with the strategy that Jeff writes about is screen size.

- Leaning too much on Smartphones could be a problem due to screen size. Think about how fun the internet is on a 3.5" or 3.8" screen. Now take that to an even smaller Smartphone screen. The portable internet needs more realestate that the Smarphone (in its current state of size and technology) can offer.

Make Windows XP Pocket Edition pocketable, instant on, and economically priced, and you may have something.
Rambling on....
Haven't there been rumblings of XP on a chip anyway?

jpaq

06-09-2003, 10:29 PM

Can the new Palm OS run multiple applications yet - or are you still stuck in that have to close one and start the other one trap? What about it's web browsing capability? Still stuck on the palm web clippings stuff?

My two cents is that this was an upgrading in technology and features geared to networking (internet and WAN/LAN) only. Perhaps MS would have been better calling this a major point upgrade, but then, if the stuff under the hood changes enough I guess it could be considered a newer release.

Regarding the Applications - Palm has yet to make it's own word processor and excel etc... stuff. They are 3rd party apps. I agree that PW, PE are light and would have liked ot have seen MS give us an option of what apps we want to store in flash memory more than being forced to use something that we may never use because we elect to purchase a 3rd party app instead.

All in all - the PocketPC is hear to stay. MS does need to be aware of the Palm improvements and needs to remain on top of the development and price point of the PPC OS. I do not agree that the OS is dying a slow death or will be replaced by either the tabletpc or smartphone. In fact there are unique use cases for all three devices which I believe will keep them around and thriving for some time to come.

If Palms OS 6 does come out even in the realm of time that they are saying, PPC could be in real trouble. To the points above, OS 6 has been said to have multi-tasking, they already have better resolution, and don't think that Opera won't be all over a full (not clipping) browser for OS6. They've licked their memory limitations, and the BeOS programmer have been said to be a great group. All of this before anyone expects to see PPC 2004/5. Don't get me wrong. I'm a PPC fan. I just hope PPC2003 is more than what we're hearing or it could be curtains.
:boohoo:

robert_biggs

06-09-2003, 10:31 PM

I'm still trying to figure out what's so bad about PPC2003 that has so many up-in-arms and ready to jump ship. The PPC platform is still the best on the market. Sure, there are a lot of things we would all like changed, but I think MS is headed in the right way with what they DID change with PPC2003. First, many industry watchers predict that eventually all future handhelds will be wirelessly connected. MS is giving us a better connection manager as well as a better PIE to improve the online experience. That alone will make the upgrade worth it to me.

Second, it appears PPC2003 will be optimized better for XScale processors. If this is true, than most newer PPCs will greatly benefit from the upgrade. Add on to that a new engine and new WMP and I think it's a very good deal as long as it's passed on to consumers at a resonable price. :wink:

Sure MS hasn't made a lot of "major" changes to PPC that some wanted, but can you blame them? PPCs market share is steadly increasing. Smartphones are the new craze and (rightfully so) MS is placing a higher priority on them over PPC. PDA is a nich market and will most likely never become a "must-have" product. Why pour money into something that is already doing well and has limited returns?

Just my 2 cents. I'm a PPC enthusiast and not about to abandon ship because I don't get higher resolutions (who wants to read text with a microscope anyways?) or landscape (if you really want it, it's availabe via 3rd-party solutions). But I also understand if MS wants to focus their attention on other mobile solutions that have higher profit potential.

cdunphy

06-09-2003, 10:33 PM

Can the new Palm OS run multiple applications yet - or are you still stuck in that have to close one and start the other one trap? What about it's web browsing capability? Still stuck on the palm web clippings stuff?

Would you rather have a device that can stop one application and launch another in 0.2 seconds, or a device that is "really" multitasking but that can take sometimes 2 seconds to launch an application???

Most users are only ever concerned about a single foreground task - and if you make switching between them fast enough the multitasking becomes a non-issue.

For the things that you really do want to do in the background - they are possible in PalmOS if the application is written for this. There are several music players for PalmOS that play in the background. There are IM and email clients that download messages and stay connected in the background. Etc....

Background tasks will get even easier for developers to create in Palm OS 6, but where things stand today things are indeed pretty good.

And besides - it is not the technical details that matter - it is usability. And an end user can almost always get around and jump between apps on a PalmOS device faster than on a Pocket PC. The Tungsten-C is the snappiest PDA experience anywhere right now - everything you do feels instantaneous. Try it and see for yourself....

As for web browsing.... Web clipping is long gone dude. The latest PalmOS browsers are FAST, full-featured, and proxy-less. Again - compare the Tungsten-C versus Pocket IE.... On many web sites, the Tungsten will run circles around Pocket IE. And the higher-resolution screen makes things look all that much better when rendered.

If the last time you checked out a PalmOS device was two years ago, you owe it to yourself to get current. Things have changed a LOT in the PalmOS world.

- chris

krisbrown

06-09-2003, 10:39 PM

Leaning too much on Smartphones could be a problem due to screen size. Think about how fun the internet is on a 3.5" or 3.8" screen. Now take that to an even smaller Smartphone screen. The portable internet needs more realestate that the Smarphone (in its current state of size and technology) can offer.

All my mobile surfing is done via my 7650 and a little program called webviewer, I have tried my hardest to like surfing using pocket i.e, but it's crap.

This program which uses servers to cut down the web and optimize it for the 176x220 screen is by far the best surfing I have ever seen

I know I come on to a PPC site and rabbit on about Smartphones, but really the PPC is so lame is so many areas, I want it to be good, the hardware is lovely, but the OS is sh*te.

Pocket IE can surf about 0.1% of the net, MS offer no alternative, they don't even point you to sites you can see, they just stick it on and the first non optimised site you visit knocks your PPC over.
MS shows every trait of a huge company with no percieved competition, they just can't be arsed to improve it.

Wilbert

06-09-2003, 10:51 PM

IMO all the changes that PPC 2003 brings us could have been done with a new EUU patch from MS! :evil:

OK, it is built on 4.2...what difference does it make?! NONE! (other than better support for IE)

All the apps are the same, just a few updates. Even IE could have been fixed with an update from MS. Heck the last EUU gave us WMP 8.5, a new EUU could have fixed ALOT and gave us a new WMP.

Does anyone know if they updated Transcriber or any of the text input methods?

dlipetz

06-09-2003, 10:58 PM

For my daily use, my iPAQ is overkill. Turns out all I really want is contacts and calendar, e-mail, maybe some entertaining diversions and occassional Web use. That's Smartphone in a nutshell.

As soon as Verizon launches the Samsung SCH-i600, I'll be lined up at the door to buy it. My iPAQ will become a desk accessory.

In fact, for me, the weakness of the iPAQ is it's size. Too small. I'd much rather have a pocketable/carryable Tablet PC than an iPAQ for purposes of real mobile Web and applications.

For sure, my everyday appliance will be Microsoft Smartphone. BRING IT ON ALREADY PLEASE!

Foo Fighter

06-09-2003, 11:50 PM

Reading the tea leaves where Pocket PC's future is concerned can be rather perplexing, but I have to agree with many of Jeff's assertions. While I don't quite think MS is all that worried about PPC cannibalizing Tablet PC sales, it is obvious they are moving their wireless focus to the Smartphone platform. I've often lamented that I don't believe Microsoft is fully committed to Pocket PC. I could be wrong in that assumption, but that is the impression I get. Microsoft's strategy seems to be more of a "shoot'n'scoot" tactic.

PalmOS is on a comeback streak, and Palm licensees are leading the field rather than following. Great products...ever improving OS...cheaper, more robust hardware...higher resolution displays...innovative form factors and features. It's all there. Where does Pocket PC stand, in technical evolution? Exactly where it was two years ago, and little has changed. Same form factors...same hardware...same resolution...same everything. Even the upcoming handhelds from HP are really just follow-ons to previous iPaq's. Great products, to be sure, but not very exciting.

At a time when Microsoft needs to be at its absolute best and maintain a competitive edge, it has opted to stand still while the Palm community passes by. This behavior is puzzling considering Microsoft's traditionally aggressive nature. 3 years ago. Pocket PC was mopping the floor with PalmOS devices in terms of technical innovation. Now the reverse is starting to take shape. Why? My guess is that Smartphone is siphoning off most of the attention (and resources) of the Mobile division. In that regard Jeff is quite accurate in calling PPC and orphan. Certainly a neglected child anyway.

I don't know where the train from Redmond is taking Pocket PC, but one thing is certain. If things don't change for the better (and soon) a lot of passengers will be getting off at the next station and catch the train to Palmville.

ricktakagi

06-10-2003, 12:23 AM

I have noticed a trend in some of the threads about the PPC and where were going with this platform. I'm unamused by the new offerings from HP. I'll get a new 1945 but I'm just not excited by it. I just want something smaller than my Dell brick.

I think when it comes down to real daily use, both platforms will do the job. I'm one of those people who will use my PPC for the PIM functions and using Avantgo. My needs could be met by either platform, Hell...my ipod can almost cover my needs.

I wanna be excited about a new product whether it comes from Palm or MS and so far I'm getting a little sleepy from waiting. I have a feeling that Sony might be the one who will add some fun back into the game.

Rick T.

roberto_torres

06-10-2003, 12:46 AM

Come on MS! You are making me angry :devilboy:

Palm OS: up to 320x480 resolution, Full support for Xscale, upcomming support for J2ME, 3D games and a device with a video accelerator.
Darn, now there is even a Divx player for Palms.

Come on MS I know you can do better, always PPC has been way forward in technology compared to Palm What the F@#$ is happening in MS??? 8O

Timothy Rapson

06-10-2003, 12:48 AM

There has been one HUGE improvement in the PPC OS in the last two years. SOFTWARE! TextMaker, PocketArtist (and others) etc. I want higher resolutions and built-in cameras before I fork out more than $200, though. If Palm can have higher resolution and a camera built-in for the Zire that is now selling for only $260 or so, PPC should too. Failing that the $150 prices of the Axim X5 recently shown and the upcoming X5 may get me to buy something to tide me over until I get Symbian Smartphone like the SonyEricson P800 which is still too expensive and is hobbled with the memory stick format that I don't ever want again.

Microsoft probably is about ready to dump PPC like they did Bob, though. The real reason MS did PPC (actually CE) was that Palm threatened their desktop Windows cash cow with the Audrey. Remember the Audrey? MS was so frightened that they offered $400 rebates, essentially making an EMachines system free if you signed up for MSN. Audrey/Palm OS threatened. Microsoft cut their heart out. Same with NetScape, WordPerfect, and you probably know all the rest. The current threats are Linux and Symbian. So they must be dispatched and Palm can be forgotten. Sorry for all the PPC users left behind.

That said, as far as PPC 2003, I would be just fine with nothing new. I just want PPC to do what it is supposed to do more often, the way XP does what it should more often than Windows ME.

I don't need more features, I need features that work more.

My Clie NR is starting to develop a digitizer problem. How could I have guessed it? The warranty ran out last week. The stupid Memory stick format that Sony lied to me about leaves me with a 128 meg limit meaning that I will never get a gig card that would allow me to use my NR for another year as a music/video player. The way I use it, I want 1 gig of storage before I do music and video on a PDA. On this Clie it isn't going to happen, ever.

I am actually planning to buy an Axim X3 to try the PPC waters once more. I may couple it with a very portable Minolta DiMage X camera. I was thinking of SBP picture viewer, but note that an image viewer is now thrown in with the PPC OS free. Perhaps this is why SBP was selling their $20 suite on special for $4 last month?

I am still looking for a couple of special pieces of software for the PPC before it is irresistable, but PocketArtist, TextMaker, and Pocket Earth offer features "far beyond the capabilites of mortal man.." (sorry if this reference is just too acane. Anyone know what 50s TV show it is from?)....well far beyond anything available for my Clie. I am still waiting for TealPaint to get to 320 by 320 much less offer the features of any of half a dozen PPC paint programs.

So suppose this new OS is more stable and runs everything out there already available at even a modest increased speed, should I carry the DiMage in one pocket and the Axim in the other? Duck tape the camera to the back of the Axim? Get a blue tooth card and wait for a blue tooth camera?

Should I slap myself until I am actually awake before posting stupid ideas like this?

Just wondering. And hoping that the number one new feature is stability.

Will T Smith

06-10-2003, 01:19 AM

I have to agree with the article's premise. We all know MS' primary objective is to satisfy stockholders by making $. The PDA market has been contracting, while the Smart Phone market appears set to take off.

MS is trying to create a market for Tablet PCs. If they can do that, and create pocketable Tablets then there isn't any reason for them to continue to invest in the PPC platform. Most potential customers have already puchased the PPC, time to move on to the next "new" item. :cry:

I hope I'm wrong, but I'm afraid we are dealing to a large extent to the realities of the current PDA maket. :evil:

Whydidnt

Why do people keep saying this? That MS is going to make Tablet's pocketable. A Tablet PC is laptop, If it were pocketable, the screen would be too small to be useful. (The smaller 10.2" Screens are bordering on too small to be useful as it is). I cannot imagine trying to use REAL applications on a 3.8" Screen. Tablet's may get lighter/thinner, but I don't think they are going to substantially decrease the dimensions or they're going to lose the one thing they have going for them, useability.

I agree 100%. TabletPC and PocketPC are 2 COMPLETELY different markets.

BTW, the market for tablets isn't exactly gangbusters. I do, however, think they are VERY cool in the convertible tablet/notebook configuration. I'd like to get one eventually.

Regarding SmartPhones, they are simply too small to enable any type of mobile browsing.

Lastly, something a lot of folks didn't notice is that the latest Samsung processor supports two simultaneous displays. THIS is where handhelds are going. Clie style clambshells with a top and bottom (left and right) displays.

In the middle will be "reader" type CE devices designed as browsers/readers. This is stuff is rapidly getting VERY cheap. The handheld computer (true personal) market is a vast untapped market. Everyone who owns a computer could use one of these (properly evolved) more than they need a desktop computer at home. I don't think anybody is dropping ANYTHING anytime soon.

Gerard

06-10-2003, 01:58 AM

I'm puzzled by a few things too.
~ Firstly, and most obviously; why is this thread here, and not on pocketnow? Of course, being a contributor there I am a bit biased, but that aside, Jeff offers a Discuss link at the end of the article we're discussing here, and last time I checked I was the only one to take advantage of that link. So far no one's added a comment! It's outright strange, to my thinking, that a sort of hijacking has taken place here.
~ I too feel that the PIE update to an IE 5.5 equivalent is reason enough to be fairly happy, and that the further promise (from Bill's mouth itself during an interview last month) of a greatly stabilised file system is a huge improvement! What do you people want, circus animals? A brass band every time you power it on? The many listed improvements, things like a connection manager which may actually be worth the name, and better integration with .NET (even if it means an additional installation to allow for the limited ROM capacity of existing devices), and dozens of other neat things, these make for a vastly enhanced experience in my opinion.
~ Palm's fast task opening is supposed to replace true multi-tasking? In a pig's eye. Here's a little example, something I find myself doing rather frequently, and basically impossible on a Palm unless a third-party multi-tasker is added (and I've admittedly no idea how well that works). I often have 2 or 3 TXT files open, and a Textmaker window. I may also have Pocket IE open. What for? To copy and paste text, of course. Editing together an article, a collected email archive (oops, there's another program open; Pocket Word, as I've had DAT files associated with that program for a long time to make editing the record of nPOP email received and sent folders easier in an all-in-one view), or a newly-compiled ebook (to be put into a ZIP file for µbook to read) takes true multi-tasking. If I didn't have it, I'd need to scroll down to find where the heck I was last time, try to remember every bit of every document I'm currently working on, and somehow come up with a coherent single document in the end of all that. Virtually impossible without eidetic recall and infinite patience. With GigaPad, which makes multiple instances of the app a breeze to open, and GigaBar to switch instantly between them, a Stowaway for text block selection and copy/pasting, I can have massive documents done in minutes and saved to a card for safekeeping. Can a Palm do that? If one can, whatever it takes to do it, is it nearly so efficient as jumping with taps on one toolbar between 6 or 7 open windows? Do you lose your place in any documents while doing this kind of work? And can you listen to music in the background and have your email automatically checking for new stuff all the while?
I'd say Palm has a little way to go yet before it comes too close to what a PPC can offer with just a bit of tweaking. Comparing a complexly hacked Palm top-end device which retails for more than a great PPC to an out-of-the-box PPC device is kind of a joke, but it's something Palmies seem to insist upon as the standard. Not very scientific, never mind fair. Instead, compare a PPC which has been set up by an experienced and competent computer user, then let's talk about what each can do, and what platform may be in danger of extinction.
~ On the tablet-shrinking question, I agree with what's already been said by a couple of others here already; that it's a crock. Unless there's a miraculous breakthrough in several areas like battery life, boot times, and just cramming all those ports and card slots into a pocket-sized PC, along with some universally acceptable magnifier to handle the incredibly small bits of information on these tiny/high-res screens, it just won't happen. Of course, Microsoft could go into the fashion business and launch a series of extra-big-pocketed suits and pants.... but would they sell? Whoa, that'd be ugly, even if they get the screens down to 7".

06-10-2003, 02:37 AM

I'm puzzled by a few things too.
I can have massive documents done in minutes and saved to a card for safekeeping. Can a Palm do that? If one can, whatever it takes to do it, is it nearly so efficient as jumping with taps on one toolbar between 6 or 7 open windows? Do you lose your place in any documents while doing this kind of work? And can you listen to music in the background and have your email automatically checking for new stuff all the while?
.

No, you don´t lose your place, in palm os the apps remember their position when they are closed. And you can listen to music but not check the mail in the background. I like more ppc, but i think that palm os is catching up fast.

Gator5000e

06-10-2003, 03:22 AM

No matter what Palm/Sony does, I will not touch a Palm/Sony until a3.5-3.0
screen is available and they get rid of that stupid Graffiti area.

BTW, posted wirelessly on my Dell Axim

Scott R

06-10-2003, 03:53 AM

I'm still holding out hope that MS has been having a bit of fun with us all and is about to blow us away with an amazing upgrade. Don't expect higher resolution support, but I predict that the latest rumors which indicate back-end only upgrades and no portrait-to-landscape on-the-fly switching will be false. After all, I think one (or more) of the MVPs here posted a while back about not believing everything we hear, and they should know.

That said, here are my thoughts about Jeff's article and PPC in general:
1) The Tablet PC won't be shrinking down in size any time soon. But there are devices like the BSquare which sound interesting. Wireless, OTOH, is the future. I think MS seemed to realize (hopefully they still do) that their Smartphone platform is too feature-poor to completely take over standalone PDAs for all users' needs, so they also offer PPC Phone Edition, and the "regular" PPC OS (to be used with Bluetooth and Wi-Fi PDAs).
2) Microsoft probably does fear the idea of people using PPCs or Palms to do Office-style stuff and has purposely hobbled their Pocket Office products intentionally. My suggestion long ago was that they offer viewer-only style apps built-in and offer more full-featured Pocket Office products for an added cost. It wouldn't be the cash cow that Office on the desktop is, but it would be something.
3) I agree with those that say that Microsoft probably never cared much about the PPC in general but just added it to their repertoire to keep Palm from owning the new (at the time) PDA market. Remember that Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer don't use them.
4) The last year or two, Microsoft has been concerned about losing developers to Java, and rightly so. Companies have largely moved away from VB as the development tool of choice. VS.NET has been a long time in the making. Their main concern initially has been to have the PPC as just one example of a device that can be developed for easily using existing VB skillsets.
5) MS still caters to the enterprise market (see #4). Even though PPCs are by and large consumer devices, they hold the promise of being useful to the enterprise and MS will cater to their needs over and above consumer wants/needs. One thing this includes is backward compatibility. MS has already pushed it a bit in the past by creating new versions of their Palm-sized PC/PPC OS which broke compatibility for questionable reasons, and with MS losing out to Java in too many places, they're more apt now than ever to be accommodating to the feature requests of their business customers.

Final thoughts...

Those of you who love PPCs and hate Palms, don't worry. MS has a lot of money and they won't be throwing in the towel to Palm any time soon. Bill's a very good businessman, and while he's not terribly interested in investing money in something that has questionable value (where can MS hope to make money on the PPC OS?). But he also doesn't want to give too big of an opening to Palm "just in case" the enterprise market decides to jump into purchasing PDAs en masse and/or PDAs become a viable alternative to laptops/desktops. Once they drop behind in functionality a bit more, he'll allocate the necessary resources to make more significant improvements.

Scott

Tungsten

06-10-2003, 03:53 AM

No matter what Palm/Sony does, I will not touch a Palm/Sony until a3.5-3.0
screen is available
Sony makes 3.8" 480x320 screens for well over a year, already. In terms of size, the Genio e550 may be 0.2" larger, but it's a stretched-out reflective screen. :|

and they get rid of that stupid Graffiti area.
Done. Check out the keyboard-only models (Treo, TG50, T|C), and full-screen models (HE330, Garmin iQue, NR/NX/NZ). On the other hand, Microsoft should get rid of that anemic 320x240 resolution.

QYV

06-10-2003, 04:14 AM

Gerard!

I use Pocket Word every day and many, many times I have wished I could open multiple Word files, or even plain text files, and move between them without losing my place - taking notes in a meeting, say, and then needing to access a document someone sent me. I've searched high and low to find a solution, posted here a couple of times, and even asked a die-hard Palm user I know if there was a way to do it on that OS (which is where I found out that at least Palm will save your place in an app when it closes), but I've never had any luck. It sounds like you've actually found something that will let you have multiple text documents open using the same application - is this correct? You mention "GigaPad"...? I Googoled it but didn't find any information. I don't to hijack this thread, but if you could reply with the details on what you are doing, I would really appreciate it!

(and this is on-topic :D ...because this is functionality that I personally think is one of the few areas where PPC multitasking could be a significant advantage over Palm)

jeremyweisser

06-10-2003, 04:16 AM

I had not touched Palm devices since 1999 when I started using my Casio E11 but when I saw the new Sony model with the integrated keyboard on a recent trip to CompUSA I have to admit that I was more than impressed (I was sort of jealous).

I have read what you guys have been saying and as scary as this sounds, I would have to agree with much of what Jeff wrote and much of what all of you are saying.

I don't mean to sound dramatic but the Pocket PC seems to have reached an apex. While this fact may be true I do not think all hope is lost for us Pocket PC maniacs. Though Microsoft seems to be focusing more on other development areas, i.e.: smartphone, I contend that their still is a place for the Pocket PC platform to succeed.

As many of you have pointed out the smartphone platform is not the most productive of devices. Yes it is great to have constant wireless access but the idea of composing a serious email message on a cell phone is ridiculous. The smartphone platform is just not robust enough for MS to base its mobile strategy around. (Having a T68 in my pocket and access on my 5450 is a much more preferable setup, but hey that is just me)

What I think will happen is something a little different than what has been suggested here. If MS is smart it will listen to what almost anybody who is somebody in this industry is saying. They will wake up and plan a new platform release for Q2 - Q3 2004. This platform should take the best aspects of Pocket PC and meld them with the smartphone platform. Do not get me wrong, I am not suggesting that MS focus on a platform like PPC Phone Edition; rather MS should take a queue from Handspring/Palm/Sony and call for PPC manufacturers to release an always on device with a built in keyboard area and a higher resolution screen. I am talking at least 320 x 320.

Microsoft now has the underlying strength of WinCE 4 to build a great device around. Retooling the GUI and adding support for new hardware possibilities should not be an impossible task for a company like MS.

If MS can get this kind of device out by spring / summer of next year, which to me is a reasonable timeframe I think that the future of the Pocket PC is secure.

That’s just my two cents; let me know what you all think.

Tungsten

06-10-2003, 04:56 AM

I'd say Palm has a little way to go yet before it comes too close to what a PPC can offer with just a bit of tweaking.http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg
Yes, just a "little" way to go. OS6 (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=5339) is due out this fall, and Microsoft has not issued a full upgrade for the past three years. Palm is ahead of the game, and Microsoft hasn't even begun playing catch-up.

ctmagnus

06-10-2003, 05:03 AM

I want higher resolutions and built-in cameras before I fork out more than $200, though.

Just today I saw a PPC with a built in camera. Can't remember where though.

ctmagnus

06-10-2003, 05:13 AM

Of course, Microsoft could go into the fashion business and launch a series of extra-big-pocketed suits and pants....

Speaking of which, look here (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=117365&highlight=geek+alert#117365), about 1/3 of the way down. :mrgreen:

Janak Parekh

06-10-2003, 05:29 AM

~ Firstly, and most obviously; why is this thread here, and not on pocketnow? Of course, being a contributor there I am a bit biased, but that aside, Jeff offers a Discuss link at the end of the article we're discussing here, and last time I checked I was the only one to take advantage of that link. So far no one's added a comment! It's outright strange, to my thinking, that a sort of hijacking has taken place here.
Quick administrative comment -- Jeff himself submitted the news item to us, so we haven't tried to "hijack" anything. We just happen to have a talkative bunch over here on PPCT. ;)

--janak

nosmohtac

06-10-2003, 05:42 AM

WyattEarp

06-10-2003, 06:20 AM

Unfortunately PDAs are still a niche market even when adding in businesses that use them. Many people I see with PDAs have older Palms, even on various sites including this many people are just upgrading their iPAQ 36xx or 37xx to a 38xx. Which tells me that unless PDA is either lost, stolen or breaks they will not replace it. Even big businesses won't change their PDAs until their return-on-investment is reached. People in general just hold on to their PDAs unlike the rest of us (a small amount in comparison) who will buy a new one if something better comes along.

I have seen a lot of PDAs come and go and I don't see this trend ending. I'm pretty sure Microsoft and Palm are aware of this since it's not hard to figure out. Unless Microsoft makes a major leap in the Pocket PC OS our beloved Pocket PC will die out just like the Sharps, Casios, Psions and Newtons of the past. So remember no company likes to continue funnelling money into and unlucrative product. Therefore I am inclined to think that it is possible that Microsoft may leave the Pocket PC to fad away.

mangochutneyman

06-10-2003, 08:15 AM

Gerard

06-10-2003, 09:07 AM

Tungsten; Sorry, I don't follow you. What do those screenshots indicate? Is it supposed to be something revolutionary, that sort of contact information input field? There are a dozen PIM apps for the PPC which do similar things to what I see onscreen there, some free. The native Contacts app covers it pretty much since early in 2000...
QYV; You asked about GigaPad. Well, the thing is, most people are for some mysterious reason afraid of GigaBar. Beats me why, as I was a wet-behind-the-ears newbie back in the fall of 2000 when I installed the very first, and very buggy version of GigaBar, and it was a delight to set up. I had a ball learning all about what multi-tasking really could be, along with all the other fancy tools embedded in that early version. Since then a lot has happened in GigaBar, though not much in the past year. 'Beta' versions have been released, back the winter before last, and they all included GigaPad, a fantastic, and highly configurable 'notepad' for editing text-based files. Gene Knight, the developer, made it at first as an on-device editor for MOE (http://moebetter.net/) macros ('Macros and Objects Everywhere', another freeware experiment, which has sadly languished). For that it does a very nice job, and the multi-instance thing is important for working on several macros at once, when testing for bugs and previewing 'desktops' created using this potent launch platform. It's complicated, so I'll shut up about that here.
GigaBar's latest versions (1.9x) must be registered, as the author intended (intends?) to make it shareware one day. So it's a several stage process getting it installed. One first goes to Tekguru's page (http://www.tekguru.co.uk/gigabar/index.htm), downloads the installer, and gets that installed. Use the first link, not the 'rename as CAB' link, as the latter seems in the past to have been an older version. The PC installer is also a ZIP file, so one can easily rename it on a PC or PPC (with a ZIP utility installed, obviously) to the *.zip extension and unpack the CAB file for your processor type - that's ARM for all the PPC 2002 devices.
Once that's done, either the PC-connected installation or tapping the CAB from anywhere in the PPC file system (no, don't unpack or click a CAB file on a PC!), you must soft reset. Then you'll get an error about it being expired or not registered. Go to http://register.gigabar.com/ and get a code. You must tap Start > Settings > System > GigaBar Settings > Register > Yes to get at the internal code, which you then input on the registration site along with your email address. An input code will be emailed to you automatically. Write that in, hit Register, and if all goes well (it should - email me if it doesn't), GigaBar's introductory page should load up for reading. It's complicated, sure, but that's just because GigaBar does so very much. GigaPad is a program installed alongside GigaBar, in the same folder. It cannot function alone, as it apparently depends upon other components of GigaBar to run. I've tried to run it as a standalone, just to know, but it won't work. Anyway, it browses anywhere in the device using a small pop-up window within the app, and will open anything without special characters used. It won't open Pocket Word docs, for instance, as the hidden code there blocks it. Same for image files, executables, DLLs, some INI files, anything fancy like that. Opens other INIs though, like the one used by nPOP for customisation of email notifications and font display. And it is great for editing Dashboard skin files (DSH), and of course any TXT file. It is limited roughly to 30KB files, almost 8 times the size of what a Palm can edit in the Notes application, or so I hear. Perfectly adequate for editing most HTML pages. Anything larger and I go to Textmaker or Pocket Word. Gene's not been communicative lately, so I don't know if this limit will stay or if he's going to get back to work on it.
If you have more questions, probably it's better to first do a search for my username and the word GigaBar or GigaPad on Brighthand and PocketPCPassion. I've written extensively on both those forums, advising many on the utility of GigaBar and GigaPad. Far beyond a mere task switcher and notepad. The latter out-performs the PC version of Notepad, with extensive keyboard support for Stowaway users or other external keyboard users. The icon bar is also customisable - you pick what functions are only a tap away. Here's mine:
http://www.luthier.ca/other/forum/gigapad.gif
Works great for editing lesser Java too, as seen there. And for URL files, and just about anything where having a fast-save Ctrl+S is handy, and when one doesn't want to wait 12 seconds or more for Textmaker to load... Yeah okay, so some stuff loads slowly on a PPC. But hey, when Palm has Textmaker, tell me about it. ;)

QYV

06-10-2003, 09:20 AM

Thanks very much! I'll check GigaBar/GigaPad out. Too bad it doesn't do Word docs, but most of my note-taking doesn't use Word features, and I tend to convert large Word docs from other people to a smaller format anyway so they don't take forever to load (and Pocket Word butchers them anyway :evil: ).

I'm surprised there aren't more applications that take advantage of Pocket PC's true multitasking - Textmaker, for example, would seem like a primary candidate. Guess there must not be as much demand for it... :|

Duncan

06-10-2003, 11:54 AM

I'm fascinated by the PalmSource guy telling us to check out new Palms on the grounds that they have changed so much in the past two years. Remind me someone - what was Palm saying two years ago? Something about how Palm was better without all these advanced features that it is now trumpeting?

I'll be sticking with Pocket PC even allowing for the PPC 2003 upgrade for several reasons:

1) Palm, for all its advances, is still catching up. Let me try an analogy. If this is a race it is one where the Pocket PC has been steadily jogging along towards the finish line while Palm ran for a bit then decided to walk while the Pocket PC jogged past it. Now with the Pocket PC way in the lead Palm wakes up to this, puts on a running spurt, makes up huge amounts of ground in a short time, comes within sight of the Pocket PC, then stops and says: 'Can't you see I'm winning? Look how many advances I've mde!' Everyone goes 'Oooh!' and ignores the fact that the Pocket PC, still chugging steadily along, is IN THE LEAD!!! Could it be that the Pocket PC OS is making less advances because they've already made all the major ones that Palm is just making now?

2) If PPC 2003 is more stable, and has many advances under the surface - that is worth upgrading for and is to be applauded! I never believed that PPC 2003 was going to be that different in terms of the PPC element - it is the WinCE improvements that are worthwhile!

3) Software - I see nothing that Palm has to offer that can rival:

TextMaker - for WP
ThunderHawk - for Web
PI 4.1 - for PIM
Any of the major three (effectively free) video players
Any of the major platform games
Calligrapher - for input
SprintDB etc. - for databases
PQV - for images
etc.

Then we have PocketBible, TomTom Navigator etc. that work more effectively on a Pocket PC than on a Palm (this is based on hands-on experience with a Tunsten|T).

4) Screen - 320x480 - sounds good - isn't! The NR70V screen is fiddly and actually makes things harder even though it is showing more. The 320x320 screen of the T|T sounds good as well - in practice I found the shape of the screen counter-intuitive. Odd as it may seem - I think 240x320 works well and increased resolution is a solution to a problem we don't have.

5) I'd be surprised if PPC 2003 is anything other than a staging post on the way to future upgrades/updates.

BTW - the new PPC 2003 PIE may not look any different on the surface - but rendering of websites is vastly improved. Even surfing forums is made easy!

dochall

06-10-2003, 01:08 PM

I have worked with an enterprise software house where the real functionality didn't take a massive leap forward in two generations of re-engineering. It is a very hard call to make as the new version doesn't look and the changes are in terms of scalability, relaibility, etc. This is a big committment and one users appreciate although it doesn't necessailry lead you to larger sales.

As an organisation that is known wedging the latest hot button rather than take an architectural viewpoint. I would commend MS for actually re-engineering the underlying os for PPC. TBH that is what I care most about. Driver problems, backlight problems, dodgy alarms etc etc. The nightmare that is connection manager.

I have all most all of the functionality that I now require from my PPC. Fair enough a lot of this has come from thirdparties - MVP, Pocket slides, HP printing, etc. but as long as the thing doesn't need a soft reset everytime I want to use Bluetooth I'll be reasonably happy.

While it would be nice to have all of these things built in and some of the others mentioned. Builtin landscape, higher res screens etc. I believe that it would be like putting lipstick on a pig if the underlying core was no rewritten. Now it may be that some of their efforts in the Smartphone marketplace are taking away from the efforts around the PPC but resources are always limited and human wave programming, in my experience, causes more problems than it solves.

jpaq

06-10-2003, 02:02 PM

Hey, if it works, good, but the lack of innovation is disappointing.

Someone mentioned, earlier, the hardware aspect. I agree.

Actually, I agree so much that I have a theory that sprouts from that point of view.

Is Microsoft looking for its own Sony? Palm survived the coming of the PPC by finally licensing its OS to other OEMs. The most notable of these was Sony.
Sony came along and tweaked, twisted, and turned the Palm OS inside out and made it do things that Palm didn't know it's own OS could do.

Is Microsoft looking for this? Are they hunting for their innovative OEM who can do the innovation for them? It wouldn't be beyond belief for MS to let someone else do the work. They've laid the gorundwork for a well funded developement team to succeed by using .NET.
Is Samsung going to be Microsoft's Sony? Toshiba? Who has the willingness and the $$ to do it. Personally, I think that Samsung might be who MS is flirting with.

Just a theory though.

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 02:52 PM

[quote]
http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg

Yes, just a "little" way to go. is due out this fall, and Microsoft has not issued a full upgrade for the past three years. Palm is ahead of the game, and Microsoft hasn't even begun playing catch-up.

OS6.0 is due out this fall?
I think not.

call us back when it is out to determine if Palm is indeed ahead of the game. In the meantime, you have to deal with OS 5.0. This is the OS that supposedly to put Palm on parity with PPC2k3 remember? multimedia and all? well where is it? .ogg, .wmv or anyother file maybe? is there even a video player for Palm inc model beside Kinoma? The real player for Palm doesn't even play its own video.

so much for catching up.

jeremyweisser

06-10-2003, 02:53 PM

What I think will happen is something a little different than what has been suggested here. If MS is smart it will listen to what almost anybody who is somebody in this industry is saying. They will wake up and plan a new platform release for Q2 - Q3 2004. This platform should take the best aspects of Pocket PC and meld them with the smartphone platform. Do not get me wrong, I am not suggesting that MS focus on a platform like PPC Phone Edition; rather MS should take a queue from Handspring/Palm/Sony and call for PPC manufacturers to release an always on device with a built in keyboard area and a higher resolution screen. I am talking at least 320 x 320.

The Hitachi G1000 almost gets there, but unfortunately the thing is horrendous brick! :roll: Ironically, the most interesting smartphone design IMHO is the upcoinmg Treo 600 from Handspring. Put a PPC OS and 320x320 screen in there, and this would be a very intriguing device! The key to all this is more hardware flexibilty on the part of Microsoft which has been lacking in PPC's unfortunately...

I could not agree with you more. MS and Pocket PC OEMs need to wake up and see what the Palm licensees have been up to. Look at what Sony and Handspring have been doing with the Palm OS. MS really has to strike A.S.A.P. to avoid backlash from its core user group and irrelevance in the marketplace with the pending release of Palm OS 6. Just think, if Sony was able to make Palm OS 5 into what they have, just think of what they will do with OS 6. Innovation is needed at the hardware and software level, hopefully it is coming :)

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 02:56 PM

John C

06-10-2003, 03:15 PM

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 03:23 PM

No, you don´t lose your place, in palm os the apps remember their position when they are closed.

Some do; some don't. Calendar always goes back to today when you push the button from another app. Phonebook and Tasks likewise revert to a standard view when you go back to them, no matter what you were doing when you left them.

John

PPC has save state, just like Palm.
but Palm has no true multitasking like PPC.

(I wonder how long before Palm user start screaming: "but who would need it" )

Jeff Kirvin

06-10-2003, 05:03 PM

call us back when it is out to determine if Palm is indeed ahead of the game. In the meantime, you have to deal with OS 5.0. This is the OS that supposedly to put Palm on parity with PPC2k3 remember? multimedia and all? well where is it? .ogg, .wmv or anyother file maybe? is there even a video player for Palm inc model beside Kinoma? The real player for Palm doesn't even play its own video.

So RealPlayer sucks. Big surprise. MMPlayer plays MPEG and Divx videos, and both AeroPlayer and pTunes play oggs as well as MP3s. Chris Dunphy was right; if you haven't looked at Palms lately, you probably don't know just how powerful they've become.

JK

Gerard

06-10-2003, 05:10 PM

In a recent in-forum debate with a Palm advocate, he attested that his memory (in his head, not his device) was easily sufficient to allow complete transfer of all a contact's data in one go to any document. I'd mentioned that I frequently need to edit multiple elements from the Notes field in a Contact database, and that this often involves jumping between Calendar and Inbox (well, nPOP is what I use, but same idea) to gather pertinent information and update it wherever. If I had to re-launch a contact's data every time, along with an appoint... every... time... I'd go nuts. So, you say Palms can NOT keep everything open and scrolled to where it was when switching apps? Isn't that what I was saying? Why do Palm users have to lie, I wonder?
Regarding the comment about this discussion being here, two things. I didn't realise that Jeff had triggered it. Not that this matters so much, but it's interesting. The other; I'm not suggesting it's wrong, only commenting that it seems odd to discuss it here when the article's dedicated discussion forum isn't on this site. Thinking out loud, sorry.

Paragon

06-10-2003, 05:35 PM

These discussions always....ALWAYS come down to Palm vs Pocket PC. Why? Which is the bigger market, those already using PDAs, but are using Palms, or those who aren't using a PDA at all....YET! Personally I think if MS,and their OEM partners were really behind this platform they would be pushing it into the mainstream more. There are tons of potential new Pocket PC users out there who aren't, yet, because they don't know anything about them. There is hardly a day goes by I don't show someone my PPC and they say something like " That is very cool. I had no idea you could do so much with them. I'm going to have to look into getting one."

Advertising, and marketing will overcome what we may preceive to be slow advances in the platform as of late.

Another 2 cents by Dave.

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 06:29 PM

So RealPlayer sucks. Big surprise. MMPlayer plays MPEG and Divx videos, and both AeroPlayer and pTunes play oggs as well as MP3s. Chris Dunphy was right; if you haven't looked at Palms lately, you probably don't know just how powerful they've become.
JK

-Real player is the only big player that can pull off an all in one app quickly right now. It took PPC a good while until third party come up with all in one solution beside WMP during the 2k days. If Real is having trouble coming up with their own video player, there is something wrong with the whole thing. I suspect the OS is pretty shabby and can't provide easy support ofr quick and reliable video player. (heck even the 2 commercial mp3 players still experiance reliability problem that PPC user would chuckle hearing about it.)

-MMplayer is a candidate. But it's still in beta phase and crash happy. It can't even play a complete short movie without konking out mid way. So, we can't really call it a viable option if it doesn't even work right, can we? If that is supposed to be an example of how Palm has catch up to PPC multimedia capability,... ehrrr.. That mean Palm is cathing up to Casio E115 capability almost 2 years ago. Congratulation!

-I have checked Palm, and let me assure you it still behind compared to PPC2K2, let alone 2K3. Can it even match PPC text viewing capability yet? Let's not get ahead of ourselves and talk about fancy graphic and multimedia. (POS wont' last against even PPC's freebie apps in that department anyway)

Show us a POS app that can do the same as app below. (and not after cobbling together 231 utlities and 379 different apps that may or may not crash when used.)

Text viewer 2K2 (UTF-8,16, ISO 8859- 1,9, JP, Palm doc, BIG5)
http://www.pocketpcjapan.com/textviewer.gif

-Wanna do systematic comparison between PPC 2k2 and POS? Count me in, but I won't promise there will be anything left for POS after the dust settle.

-Who the hell is Chris Dunphy?

Gerard

06-10-2003, 06:38 PM

I know what you mean about the ignorance thing. Yesterday I saw a woman in a drugstore using an iPAQ 31xx sort of device, and was really surprised. I scarcely even see Palm-based devices around here. It seems that most people just don't understand how easily they could carry around a flexible, powerful information store with them most of the time, even though most seem to have cellphones. Sure, you can get a pile of phone numbers and the odd other thing into a cell, but what a pain to do it! Just writing on a screen is so much easier. Can you imagine taking notes on a cellphone? GACK!

I think a broader PDA awareness, regardless of platform, would be a good thing. It may prove a better way of cutting down on paper usage than the big computer revolution has. That was a bit of a blowout, as people still wanted to carry the data with them, not just reading it on a fixed location screen, or even on an awkward and slow to boot notebook. With any of the better PDAs one can carry thousands of documents around all the time, even rarely used stuff, 'just in case'. Same for huge contacts lists, calendars, whatever.

Two nights ago I was chatting with a neighbour, across her new fence. She was talking about keeping herself organised, and getting that coordinated with her husband's stuff. An independent graphic designer, she has a state-of-the-art Mac in her home office, big display and all the trimmings. But she's never even used a Palm, never mind a PPC. I told her a couple of things about the PPC, and she lit up with questions. Soon her husband was getting involved, wondering about all the stuff I was saying could be done with one. Soon they had both gladly accepted my invitation to get together over a coffee sometime soon and go over the device basics, to see if it was for them. Their interest was serious, the sort one sees at car dealerships when the decision has already been made to purchase and only the details need ironing out.

So that got me thinking about what my role might be. I've wondered for a while how I might justify some of my 'wasted' time with PPC stuff by earning a little money on the side. Perhaps I could launch some sort of consultancy/personal support service, for people scared of the leap to a pocketable computer. I'm no businessman, and the long hair may confuse some people, but if I could think of a way in.... Maybe postering near Starbucks? :P I dunno. It's hardly a priority to get busy selling stuff for MS and the OEMs, but then again the bigger the market, the likelier the thriving of the platform. Seems a self-serving thing to promote the PPC, not just for the money, but for longer term improvements which may arise. Has anyone got thoughts on something like this? Maybe a sort of networked support crew, with forum members of known skills forming an email-connected business for better spreading the good word?

Sorry, off-topic I suppose. And I apologise for the appearance of Palm-bashing. It's too easy a trap to fall into.

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 06:44 PM

there is a trap? where where? lemme jump in... <leap into the trap gleefully?

axe

06-10-2003, 06:45 PM

I have read almost everything in this thread, if not skimmed the last few notes and have not seen anything regarding the poll we did a while back... The poll asked what people prefer, an all-in-one Smartphone or a separate cell & PDA. While I don't agree, IMHO, the separate device connected via Bluetooth, if at all was a clear winner, if I remember correctly. This seems to fly in the face of MS wanting to sink $$$ into SmartPhone vs PPC.
As far as I have seen through other threads and such, people still prefer to use their PPC, and other who have Smartphone tend to complain about them being "locked". I have seen Buy'n'Sell notes for "Unlocked" Smartphones, so I gather this is an issue for the more power-hungry users. I have also seen apps reviewed that specifically say "Not for Smartphone". This limitation, presumably due to the even smaller screen on the Smartphone would stop me in me from even considering buying one. Since I don't have one, and I haven't researched the 'locking' thing I am not basign my opinion on that, other than it sounds undesirable.

For me, I would seriously consider a PPC PhoneEdition, if good ol' Rogers AT&T would put one out. I want the large screen, and no app limitations. However I have also noticed that NO innovation with regards to the new 200MHz-bus 400MHz phones exist even though there is a $2-300 USD Ipaq with this high-speed processor. I know the first thing is I'm going to get slammed saying the 400MHz processor doesn't help much... I know that now that is the case with PPC2K2, but expect the new version will alleviate this. I also don't want my device to be eclipsed as soon as I buy it. This is emphasized by the point I still have my Ipaq 3630. The OS doesn't help with speed and I have two CF slots if I have memory problems.

Ok I'm rambling a bit here, but I just plain don't want an itty-bitty screen where I can't read my Ebooks, view my Excel spreadsheets if someone emails me one, read more than two lines of an email, etc etc. Only seeing two or three columns in P-Excel is bad enough on a full-sized PPC, why would I want to go SMALLER? If I want a phone, I'll buy one, if I want a PPC, I'll buy one. If I sacrifice one or the other so I don't have to carry two devices, I don't want it to be at the expense of the other. I want to have a full-featured PPC that happens to work as a cell too. I REALLY hope to see innovation here, since THAT market doesn't trod on the Table Edition machines or other forms of XP on a chip etc. PPC PE is the way things should be going, if there is concerns about the market.

My $0.02
AXE

Jeff Kirvin

06-10-2003, 06:47 PM

Gerard: No need to apologize. We all have our biases (even though mine seem to change with the wind; I'm so open-minded that my brains fall out sometimes).

I've often wondered why PDAs aren't more popular. I see it every day working the PDA counter at CompUSA. People come in, "just looking" and since the communications counter is the first thing they see when they walk in the store, I get first crack at them. I'm consistently amazed how many people don't realize you can read ebooks on a PDA, for example. Palm and Microsoft would probably do better in the long run if they quit sniping at each other and worked harder to educate the general populace on what mobile computing can really do.

And on that note...

TawnerX: I'm not going to get into a "mine is bigger than yours" contest with you. If you feel the need to assert your superiority through a PDA... Well, my testosterone levels are fine as they are, thanks. I'm an expert user of both Palms and Pocket PCs, and I'm well aware of what each platform is and is not capable of. Currently my default handheld is a Palm. Yours isn't. End of story.

JK

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 06:59 PM

If you start saying comparing "hardware specification", "platform features" and "application capabilities" as trivial exercise.

What are you doing writing "tech" column?

are we going to start saying POS giving me horny warm fuzzy feeling, and PPC quick jolt, instead of straight up spec and feature comparison?

... mmm.....

Imagin everytime you write: This or that app has better looking fonts and cant do this or that. Somebody will just "Paste" your comment above and say: "stop comparing size pal. It's not the horse power, but the loving it give"

does it even pass the giggle test when talking about gadget comparison?

Well I am not an expert, but will surely want to know what does an expert really know when he is talking about some particular platform has "catched up" or if it is better or not.

Foo Fighter

06-10-2003, 07:03 PM

Don't feel bad, Jeff. Topics like this (even with the most honest intent) always degrade into a Palm vs. PPC debate. Even though your article really had nothing to do with such a theme. It was more of a "Where is Pocket PC going?" editorial.

Let's drop this discussion and get back to topic, shall we? Look into my eyes...you are getting sleepy...very sleepy. When you awake, you will forget all about this conversation. :sleeping:

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 07:09 PM

we are not about to hold hand and start singing koombaya too are we?

Foo Fighter

06-10-2003, 07:12 PM

we are not about to hold hand and start singing koombaya too are we?

No, if you do that...I'm leaving this conversation! :lol:

disconnected

06-10-2003, 08:47 PM

Well, I definitely agree that Microsoft and the PPC makers need to start marketing to the mainstream, but I think before they do that, they really need to make things a little simpler.

Much as I love hanging around here, it really shouldn't require multiple forum searches every time you want to add functionality to a PPC.

I think there are lots of things that PPCs are capable of, that people could be convinced they needed. PIMs of course, but also reading ebooks, listening to music, watching videos, connecting to the internet for browsing and email, and using a GPS system. But there is a definite learning curve with each one of these. It's pretty obvious how to use a portable CD player, but for music on a PPC, you have to buy software to rip the CDs into one of multiple formats, and most of the software is neither intuitive or well documented. Converting video is infinitely more complicated. Ebooks come in various formats for different readers, and even activating Microsoft reader itself is a pain. GPS is great, but requires figuring out COM port settings (just like setting up AOL on a PC ten years ago), and downloading and managing maps in bits and pieces. I don't think anyone in the world really understands Connection Mangler, and one's experiences with Active-sync seem to be mostly a matter of luck.

All this is fine if you're the kind of person that enjoys messing around with the PPC itself as a hobby (I guess that would describe most people here), but probably most people just want the functionality without the pain, just like most people want to listen to a radio, not build one from a kit (that's my age showing; I guess people don't do that anymore :) ).

I spend a lot of time reading ebooks in restaurants, and I often get questions from people around me. A lot of them like the idea, but decide that it's too complicated (partly because I don't explain things too well, but also because it is inherently too complicated).

I guess a certain amount of complexity is inevitable (it is a computer, after all), but I think it could be made a lot simpler than it is.

As for the new OS, I'll probably buy a new PPC by the end of the summer, but I'm pretty disappointed that the resolution is apparently going to remain the same; apart from improving PIE, that was the big change I was hoping for. On the hardware side, there have been lots of iPAQ rumors, but no others that I've seen. So far I've only owned iPAQs, but I think it might be time for a change, even though I've got lots of iPAQ accessories. I want SD and CF slots, built-in WiFi and Bluetooth, and at least a 3.8" transflective screen; apparently with an iPAQ I can have either the screen or the CF slot, but not both, so I'm waiting for Toshiba news. I'd like to have CDMA built-in, but that would require giving up almost everything else, so I'll settle for a Bluetooth phone, should Sprint ever release it.

Sorry for the very long post; it's a slow day at work. :oops:

mmace

06-10-2003, 08:49 PM

ctmagnus

06-10-2003, 09:58 PM

3) Software - I see nothing that Palm has to offer that can rival:

PI 4.1 - for PIM

Da*n beta testers! :wink:

John C

06-10-2003, 09:58 PM

2) Microsoft probably does fear the idea of people using PPCs or Palms to do Office-style stuff and has purposely hobbled their Pocket Office products intentionally.

I'm sorry, but I have just never been able to swallow this line of reasoning. Is it possible that many people would want to use the "free" copy of Word and Excel on a PPC to do extensive word processing or spreadsheets on that little screen? Sure, maybe us uber-geeks would like it, but I gotta believe that the 99+% of the Palm/PPC users out there wouldn't even dream of it, even if they could.

John

ctmagnus

06-10-2003, 10:01 PM

I've wondered for a while how I might justify some of my 'wasted' time with PPC stuff by earning a little money on the side. Perhaps I could launch some sort of consultancy/personal support service, for people scared of the leap to a pocketable computer. I'm no businessman, and the long hair may confuse some people, but if I could think of a way in.... Maybe postering near Starbucks? :P I dunno. It's hardly a priority to get busy selling stuff for MS and the OEMs, but then again the bigger the market, the likelier the thriving of the platform. Seems a self-serving thing to promote the PPC, not just for the money, but for longer term improvements which may arise. Has anyone got thoughts on something like this? Maybe a sort of networked support crew, with forum members of known skills forming an email-connected business for better spreading the good word?

Or, we could just send them here.

Note to admins: This board needs a scholarly emoticon.

TawnerX

06-10-2003, 10:59 PM

Palm and Microsoft would probably do better in the long run if they quit sniping at each other and worked harder to educate the general populace on what mobile computing can really do.

No argument from me.

Mike
CCO, PalmSource Inc.

Is OS 6.0 going to be as sucky as as OS 5.0? just curious...

--------------

OS 5.0 Post mortem,

-"Some folks have assumed Palm OS will only support the lowest common denominator of chip features -- that Palm Powered hardware won't be able to take advantage of the special features of a particular ARM design. That's not the case. The OS is flexible, and licensees can customize it to work with the particular features of a chip they choose. "

Since the interview was taken, PSG has lost 2 players in the store shelf. what happen? (unless you count those Mega announcement zero result type of products : FOssil, Garmin)

-So what happen to this: "According to Nagel, "the truth of the matter is that they (Pocket PC devices) are much bigger and more expensive products because the operating system is bloated."

after a year of that statement: Palm Inc still haven't come up with $199 ARM POS device to match X5. And The much tauted $499 T|T was promptly going to bargain sale and pretty much going down the drain now. Do you think T|T 2 can match h2210 since they are at the same price?

-what happen to your market share? since you release OS5.0 last year, POS has lost Asia and Europe majority market share. Did somebody forgot to tell PSG how sucky OS5.0 is? Or are you waiting for NPD finally give up spinning your US retail data to cover up POS systematic market share lost?

-I want to know how much did Palm inc pay to commission that last hillarious "comparison study". What were you guys smoking? can I get some too? must be really good....

-Will 80% of POS license unit in 2006 be Zire type of organizer? It's a cute device. When are you going to release a model with 512kb memory with 8mhz model? I can't wait for this advance $35 buck model, I need new paperweight.