Why don't YOU buy more eBooks?

[davidspalding]

Here, read this first (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=2855575). Then take the poll, please.
____________

I take offense, personally, that the presumed reason that eBooks aren't selling like hot cakes is that a) people prefer paper books, or b) it's a "geek thing." Balderdash. I can make notes in my eBook without changing the file. I can bookmark specific passages. I can take several books to read on a vacation without taking up any room in my luggage except for a PDA and a charger.

On Amazon and other major book sites, an eBook costs the same as the trade paperback copy. (I've found SimonSays.com selling an eBook for the same price as a hardcover edition, even years after publication, with a cheaper softcover edition available!) But you can't donate an eBook to the library, share it with a friend (if it's in a secure, DRM format), can't sell it to your favorite used bookstore, etc. I think that's a serious flaw in publishers' thinking: that the ebook is of equal value and permanence than a real book, and can only be sold separately at the same cost. (I see no reason why they don't give me the ebook when I buy the physical book, or sell it to me for $2 more.)

Any thoughts?

[MLO]

I'm sorry you take offense, but I really do prefer paper books. I like the smell of the paper and ink, the feel of the pages, the heft of the book.

I'll purchase some titles in eBook format (the Bible being one of them) but for books that I really want to read, I'm still going with paper.

Plus, I get too much enjoyment out of browsing Borders on a weekend.

MLO

[Crystal Eitle]

I am so with davidspalding on this one. I was against eBooks until I tried them. Now it is my preferred way to read books.

I am tired of all this bad press portraying eBooks as a "geek thing" or saying that the experience of reading an eBook isn't the same as curling up on a couch with a paperback. I have to disagree. Curling up on a couch, or in bed (or even in the bathtub!) with my Pocket PC is one of the most enjoyable things in the world.

And reading on a Pocket PC is extremely comfortable. The "screen flicker" mentioned in this article is unnoticable (or nonexistent?) on a Pocket PC.

I would hate to see printed books disappear entirely, but I do think that eBooks are a viable alternative. But for eBooks to take off, a few things need to happen:

1) You buy it, you own it. Period. That means you should be able to keep it forever and read it on however many devices you choose. Companies need to learn (in the immortal words of Steve Jobs), to "stop treating consumers like thieves".

2) Better publicity. Cory Doctorow's free eBook was a great example of this - put free samples out there to generate word-of-mouth. Get handheld devices out there in front of people's faces so they can see how enjoyable the experience of reading eBooks really is.

3) Reasonable prices. An eBook should cost slightly less than the printed version. People have the perception that eBooks cost less to produce. Therefore, companies have to cater to that perception with reduced prices, otherwise eBooks won't sell.

4) Selection. The eBook market right now is dominated with Sci-Fi, Suspense, Mystery, Thriller, Romance, and Business titles. I'd like to see more literary fiction, current events, history and popular science titles (but maybe that's just me :) ).

[rhmorrison]

...I take offense, personally, that the reason eBooks aren't selling like hot cakes is that a) people prefer paper books, or b) it's a "geek thing."
And I take offense at paying more for an ebook than I would pay for a paperback. I have read quite a few ebooks (all FREE), but I balk at paying more for an electonic version than I do for a paperback that has real production costs. If they offered ebook versions of the books that I wanted to buy for say $2 a piece then I would buy a bunch of them but they often want $6 or $7 dollers which is MORE than I generally have to pay for the paperback which is absolutely ridiculous!

I also believe that once we have better readers such as the Toshiba prototype device or future visions von E-Ink that there will be a larger market for ebooks, emagazines, and enewspapers.

[Jacob]

I personally like reading real books because I don't need to be staring at a screen for that much longer in the day.

By the way.. I like the option "I feel uncomfortable paying for anything that's only digital" - if so, why would you pay for software? :D

[rhmorrison]

- if so, why would you pay for software?
Unfortunately, MANY PEOPLE DON'T!

[Janak Parekh]

And reading on a Pocket PC is extremely comfortable. The "screen flicker" mentioned in this article is unnoticable (or nonexistent?) on a Pocket PC.
This is a key aspect I don't think the market picks up on. I suspect most of the market thinks of reading ebooks at your desk. Yuck! With ClearType, etc., it's very easy to read an ebook, and my eyes don't hurt, and I carry my Pocket PC everywhere, unlike a book that may add weight to my bag.

--janak

[M@]

Well how much do you think an eBook costs to make?

There is the cost of:
- Software to make it (Probably insigificant if you're talking about big business)
- Running of the website (Very little, perhaps a few pence out of each eBook goes towards that.
- Employees/Bank Charges to vet each order, check the legality. Possibly the second largest expense
- Royalties.- Perhaps the largest cost. It would be ideal if there were a website for writers/books, similar to MP3.com except for books.

Still, the charges some companies demand are just ludicrous.

I personally think that to begin with; like MP3s and even Computers themselves, eBooks will start off un-popular whilst people try to argue their way out of allowing them: causing illegal eBooks becoming avaliable on the internet for free (*cough* Napster *cough*).

And eventually people will accept them, companies will sue, and everyone will be happy with their eBooks.

No More Death of Trees

But, much worse than death of trees, more sweatshops in places so far away, it barely matters to the consumer anymore.

[Xianfox]

For me, it's mostly about DRM and proprietary formats. I've got 24 years of computer experience, and to this day, I can still access most of my data from all of those 24 years because I've primarily used open formats (ASCII, RTF, etc.).

I don't necessarily want to buy into Microsoft's or Palm's "vision" of how I should "experience" ebooks. They want my money with no restrictions on how they spend it, I want their product with no restrictions on how I use it. I understand the fear that it may be pirated, but start prosecuting the pirates, not the law-abiding.

I'll probably offend some here for saying this, but DRM is just like gun control. Gun control works, ask the experts: Hitler, Stalin, Castro, etc. Let's learn a lesson from this, shall we?

As for me, I'll stay far away from DRM.

[Kati Compton]

I have 2 reasons. I prefer paper. In fact, I prefer hardbacks. In my new house I'm getting this autumn, I plan to have a room as a library for all my books.... I really love books. To look at as well to read.

I stare at a screen for some ridiculous hours in a day, so sometimes it's nice to do something different and non-techie. Even with my LCD monitor and PPC, I find it much easier to read off of paper for long periods of time. Yes, I know that it's easier to take eBooks with you wherever you go so you can read in a spare moment, but that's not how I read. I read a book this weekend for the first time in a long while - I sat down around 5 or 6pm, read, broke for dinner, read, went to bed at 1 or 2 after finishing the book. This is how I read. I can't do the intermittent thing.

I *might* be willing to give up paper at least once in a while if it made financial sense... But the current eBook prices just don't convince me. In order to switch from something I like to something I like less, I need something to make up for that tradeoff - like cheaper prices.

[Sven Johannsen]

I don't buy e-books because of the wealth of free ones out there. The books I generally read because I have a specific book in mind aren't available in e-book. If I just want to read something, I can find a free something.

[Jason Dunn]

I take offense, personally, that the reason eBooks aren't selling like hot cakes is that a) people prefer paper books, or b) it's a "geek thing."

eBooks aren't proliferating for one reason: there aren't enough devices. Until PDAs are as common as cell phones (which, in their current form, they never will be), there's not enough of a critical mass of eBook-capable devices. Until the mass market really understands and adopts mobile computing, mobile digital document reading (eBooks) won't become a reality.

That's the way I see it at least. :mrgreen:

[Kevin C. Tofel]

Being an avid book reader (3-5 titles per month; both print and "e"), I'm thrilled with a small, portable format such as the eBook. I've never had a problem reading on the "small screen" and it's much nicer to read a book until 2am without the lights on to bother my wife...with today's backlight functionality, it's definitely a workable solution.

The only problem I sometimes have is the price of the download. I don't know what cut of the profit the author actually receives from a print copy, but I'd like to see a pricing model that accurately reflects a fair profit to the author and the publishing company. My thought would be that in terms of production \ distribution costs, the eBook format should reduce costs by a large magnitude, but I've found myself paying up to $15-20 for an eBook. I'd be more apt to purchasing them at a lower (but fair) price point near $10.

KCT

[guinness]

I don't read ebooks as much as real books as I also prefer the the feel of paper; the feel of the paper as I turn the page is something I don't get with MS Reader. Also, I think most paperbacks weigh less than my Axim :wink: It's not as comfortable to hold after awhile.

[tdbunker]

:D I have been reading ebooks since I got my Axim, about one ebook a week. I never read much before. My reason for liking ebooks is that I always have my PDA with me and I can carry hundreds of ebooks without adding an ounce of additional weight if I chose.

I usually use Palm Reader (activation is name and credit card number used to purchase) over Microsoft which requires going to the MS web site to achieve activation for every purchase. For some reason, the few times I have bought ebooks from Barnes & Noble, the download program insisted that I download and install a copy of MS Reader even though I already had the reader on my PC. Its gets to be a bit of a hassle. It reinforces my perception that any dealings with Microsoft are a pain.

I also prefer Palm as it has more features than MS. For example I usually use the reverse video option and often activate screen scrolling, neither of which MS oferrs.

[ux4484]

I'm a fan of real books, but I'm also ebook hooked.

I'm mainly on the "cost too much" wagon, but another gripe of mine is: Why isn't "XYZ" book available as an ebook? Take Jason's video book for example; this is a prime target for an ebook ......editing video on your computer, get in a jam or want to refer to something? Alt-Tab to his video book for some pointers. You've already got your video camera hooked up to your computer littering your desk, why be looking through a book when a 19" screen is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?! Referance materials were made for this stuff!......Nutty that Microsoft press that prints so many of these TECHNICAL related type books and ISN'T offering them as ebooks..... shooting ones self in the foot AFAIC.

Reading on a device: I find reading on a PDA (color or monochrome) is much easier than reading on a conventional (or LCD) computer monitor (no matter how you adjust the monitor).
I read on my Axim on the lowest brightness setting (which often seems too bright in med-low light enviroments). If I have a big read, I often still load up my Visor; as reading on it visually is VERY similar to reading an old paperback (contrast-wise) and is very easy on the eyes.

[sub_tex]

I stayed away from purchasing eBooks for a while mainly because of price.

But now, Palm Digital sells them for a few bucks cheaper than they are in paperback.

Which is still more than they should be charging (I mean, it's a 'save-as' step in Word to make a .doc an ebook, so I don't wanna hear about 'production costs'), but in the area I'm willing to spend.

I hatre the DRM stuff, but unfortunately, it's the only way I can get most of the ebooks i want (leagally).

I've found myself reading the ebook versions more than the paperback versions now because i don't need to worry about lights and waking up others. No more need for those bulky clip on book lights! :)

I still buy BOTH versions of a book. The eBook for the train/waiting in lines/movie theaters, etc. and the paperback for in the house reading (that's not at night in my bed).

[gorkon280]

I'm a fan of real books, but I'm also ebook hooked.

I'm mainly on the "cost too much" wagon, but another gripe of mine is: Why isn't "XYZ" book available as an ebook? Take Jason's video book for example; this is a prime target for an ebook ......editing video on your computer, get in a jam or want to refer to something? Alt-Tab to his video book for some pointers. You've already got your video camera hooked up to your computer littering your desk, why be looking through a book when a 19" screen is RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU?! Referance materials were made for this stuff!.......

YES! I agree! There are so many books I like to have in my PDA that aren't offered that way. (and NO PDF sucks for a ebook format). I wish that IBM would offer eBook reference guides rather than PDF or print. PDF is a VERY bad format both for PDA's and Desktops. The only thing PDF works well for is printing tax forms (or other forms) on many different brands of pritners and having them all within the strict IRS tolerances. Past that, I usually waste the paper any how when something is presented in PDF. There is a Acrobat reader for PPC but it sucks major. I have ony bought one eBook so far (Imzadii II - ST:TNG novel). I read more from my PDA than paper now. If those techical references would finally be available in eBook form...hoo boy! No more carrying 100 lbs of technical manuals.

[lmtuxinc]

I like paper books for reading at home, but when I go on vacation or out somewhere where I know I will need a book, I like ebooks. They weigh less and I can carry as many as I have space for instead of filling up a whole bookbag full of books.

I refuse to pay more for an electronic version than a paper version, and I am not going to buy the same book twice. I also think that if you buy the paper version you should get the electronic version for a dollar more (2 at the most).

Think about how they make books now, The printing process is all computer controlled and the book itself most likely starts out on a computer, or is put into one at some point in its creation. This isnt the 18th or 19th century where books were all made with individual type presses. You dont have to scan each page in individually and then make the book.

Have you seen some of the ebooks out there? When I want an ebook I prefer to make it myself on my computer, that way I can control the font type and size.

[ricksfiona]

Davidspalding hit it right on the head. ebooks cut cost dramatically and that savings should be passed on to the consumer. Wishful thinking I suppose.

For me, I just haven't gotten into that habit of trying out ebooks. I ALWAYS go to Borders book store when I want to buy a book. Plus, I can scan through the book to check if I really want it.

[bkerrins]

I really like ebooks. Almost better than paper. The reason why is because I can carry two or three books at a time on my PPC and read what ever is needed at the moment. I wish I had a good dictionary that allowed me to lookup a word when I hear it in conversation. I think it's great that MS dictionary allows me to click on the word as I read a book and get a definition...but it's not friendly when just trying to lookup a word. For a student, this would be ideal, imagine being able to carry all ones text books with them at a time and only have it weigh as much as a SD card. The price of ebooks is clearly out of proportion to the cost. It has to live electronically now days to print a hard copy, so there is only a conversion cost. There is no shipping cost or warehousing (OK using up space on a server maybe). If they had the current titles and cost between 2-3 bucks then I'd be all over them.

[Sslixtis]

"Once one copy gets out there, there are 10 million copies of it," Doherty said.

Still, companies are trying to address the problem -- by coming up with new forms of temporary electronic "ink," that disappears, or is unreadable, after a few weeks or months, for instance. One company, Overdrive.com, has a copyright security technology and offers a service that enables libraries to "loan" e-books and stores like Barnes & Noble to sell them.


Guess these guys have never heard of Peanut Press. As far as "temporary electronic "ink," that disappears, or is unreadable, after a few weeks or months" is concerned, only if they let me pay for it with "temporary electronic money", that disappears, or is unusable, after a few weeks or months! Why do these idiots keep thinking that we want to RENT media content?!?!? If I can't own it I don't want it and will NOT pay for it, period! :evil:

[pivaska]

I haven't read all of the free ones that are out there yet. If you go to Guttenburg press and submitt any of your favorite authors you will most likely come up with at least one book that you haven't read. How many people have read all of Haggard, Wells, The Tarzan series and on and on? If there is an ebook that I need for work I then purchase it but for entertainment.. there's just too much out there.

[scottmag]

I don't think that ebooks will become more than a niche market any time soon. People just are not going to buy dedicated ebook readers until three things happen:
1) The technology improves dramatically to offer the resolution and contrast of paper (we're almost there on this one).
2) The cost drops significantly
3) There are additional compelling reasons to own one.

Right now the cost of a hardcover book includes the ability to read it anywhere - it is self-contained and mobile with no external requirements other than light. An ebook of that same novel - in the unlikely event that it is even available - costs about the same as the hardcover and requires the purchase of an expensive device to read it. That's a barrier to entry that will keep the average book-buying consumer away.

There are ways around this. The purchase of an ebook reader could include credit toward future ebook purchases. This would offset the initial purchase. If compelling enough to "pay for itself" this would be appealing. Or alternatively ebooks, and ebook readers, could offer additional benefits that paper books could not match. This would be similar to the added-benefit model of DVDs. An ebook could include extras that the paper version does not, and cannot - previews of other current and upcoming books, interviews with the author, video and audio clips, interactive content, etc. I bought some certification books recently and it would be a great feature if I could electronically "highlight" sections and create my own custom quick-reference.

My point #3 above about other compelling reasons to own an ebook reader refers to uses beyond just reading books. I don't buy many books but I do read a lot of magazines and the Wall Street Journal. Whatever device is to become the dominant ebook reader - PDA, dedicated platform, TabletPC, etc. - also needs to have other uses to justify its purchase. Otherwise it only appeals to a small segment of avid book purchasers who are also early adopters of technology. That market is not large enough to drive the price down for mass consumption.

Scott

[Ken Mattern]

There is the cost of:
- Software to make it (Probably insigificant if you're talking about big business)
- Running of the website (Very little, perhaps a few pence out of each eBook goes towards that.
- Employees/Bank Charges to vet each order, check the legality. Possibly the second largest expense
- Royalties.- Perhaps the largest cost. It would be ideal if there were a website for writers/books, similar to MP3.com except for books.


The software I am using to publish my eBooks is in its third version. I've been working on this version since last July. I have a significant amount of time in the program. It is not an insignificant cost.

The website costs me money and time. It is not an insignificant amount.

I do save on employees as I have none and I don't pay royalties, so there is a savings there.

The hard thing to find and donate to the the publication of eBooks is time. It takes far too much time to properly format an eBook these days. That's one reason I don't publish more. It takes approximately 8 hours to format a book properly, do the appropriate research for the synopsis and to create five different graphic covers.

That's why eBooks are so expensive...

OOPS :oops: I don't sell eBooks. I give them away.

Oh never mind! :D

[Rudism]

A while back (maybe a couple years ago), a site called Abika.com started up as a huge library of public domain books in PDF format. Abika.com is still around, but now they are some kind of investigations company instead and have nothing to do with books (although the name and logo are the exact same, interestingly enough).

Anyways, getting back to the subject, they allowed you to download any book from their selection for free... but the way they developed the site, it was apparent that they didn't want you to download the books in bulk (you had to search for individual titles, and they would only list a few results per page, etc). I got nosey though and figured out their book naming scheme, and their URL system, so I wrote a tool that would systematically go through their site and download every single PDF they offered.

I left it running over night, and in the morning I was greeted by almost 4gb of ebooks for my reading pleasure.

Sadly a lot of it was junk... But there are a enough jems that I haven't needed to pay money for reading material since (and probably won't for a long time to come).

[PPCRules]

I see no reason why they don't give me the ebook when I buy the physical book, or sell it to me for $2 more. ....

That's exactly it. If they did that, this market would be ready to take off. As it is, I'd say it's about to cave in. The excitement the early adopters had will cool off, and no one else is going to jump in. Then publishers will say there is not enough market to do it, and even current users will be without the option.

[Ken Mattern]

I have a large collection of paper books. Things you can't get with eBooks:

Autographed first editions
Autographed, period
A sense of permanence
The smell of paper and ink
The heft of the book - especially hard bound
Bookcases
Reading at the table at supper time (I do live alone)
No DRM

I love books of all kinds. Many of the books I want to read are simply not available in eBook format and may never become available with the new copyright extensions. 90% of all new books go out of print in the first run and never see print again.

Things you can't get with Paper books

Classics long out of print
Libraries that fit on a CF card
Safely reading in the bathtub (I don;t know how many books I have dunked)
Reading in line
Switching between books instantly with no shuffling

[jmarkevich]

Or go to the Library?

Paid-for eBooks with DRM are a huge step backwards.

[Crystal Eitle]

Or go to the Library?

I am a total failure at going to the library. I always forget to return my books by the due date and end up with huge fines.

[RickK]

I don't read ebooks as much as real books as I also prefer the the feel of paper; the feel of the paper as I turn the page is something I don't get with MS Reader.

This is similar to several other quotes about the paper book experience. I prefer the feel of a separate dedicated cell phone, but would gladly trade that for the convenience of having a single phone/PDA device. I prefer taking notes on paper, but traded happily for the convenience of having my contacts, calendar and notes all in one place and always with me.

I prefer to curl up in a chair and read a paper book, but I rarely have time for that. Ebooks allow me to burn through books because I always have my book with me and can read it while waiting in line, stuck in traffic, sitting in a boring lecture, etc.

Ebooks are a natural progression for today's time-compressed lifestyles, and the publishing industry continues to fail to capitalize on a HUGE market opportunity.

[Ken Mattern]

I got nosey though and figured out their book naming scheme, and their URL system, so I wrote a tool that would systematically go through their site and download every single PDF they offered. :twisted:

It's things like that that slow my server to a crawl. I had to go to great lengths to prevent/slow mass downloadings. How long did it take you to read all 4 gigs? If you are welcome to the books for free get a couple of them at a time and save some bandwidth for other users.

[Paragon]

ebooks cut cost dramatically and that savings should be passed on to the consumer.

WRONG...Sorry, but it's wrong. :)

We have this feeling that if we can't touch or feel something, then it must not have the same costs associated with it. This is wrong!

Compare Peanut Press, and an average book store. From the numbers I have seen they probably sell close to the same number of books per year. The book store I think sells a bit more.

The book store has to buy the books. They need a store location. They probably need 6-8 staff. They need 1-2 computers. They pay for utilities, accounting, advertising, and so on. The books need to be printed, and delivered, and kept in inventory.

Peanut Press has to buy the books at the same cost whether they are printed, or digitally reproduced. They employ close to 25 people. They have numerous computers, as well as servers. They have to pay rather large utility bills to keep all those computers, and servers going 24/7. Not to mention the staff needed to keep them up and going. They have to pay for the huge bandwidth they use to deliver their books. As we as develop the systems to deliver the product. They must advertise just like the book store does. They need space for offices, and computes the same as the store needs space. Peanut Press also spends a good deal of time actively persuading authors, and publishers to sell them thier product. Plus they need the accounts, and lawyer too. In fact they probably spend a great deal of money on lawyer compared to your average book store.

Consider all this for a few minutes then tell me which you think is going to bring you a higher profit margin?

Now, personally I agree that until devices to read ebooks are common place they will serve a niche market. I don't see ebooks being a big hit for use on your desktop PC. ebooks read on portable devices such as PPCs are incredibly effective, and enjoyable. Using a PPC I never loose my page when I sit it down. They are much smaller. I find my hands get very tired holding a book. I can take it with me everywhere. So, I therefore read much more. IF I get stuck in a line I pull out my PPC and read for a few minutes. I have become much more patient now when I have to wait in lineups. I can carry dozens of books with me at all times. With a format like Palm Digital Media I can read my books on as many of my own devices as I want, whether they are PPC, Palm, desktop PCs, laptops, or Macs.

For me ebooks are not my prefered method of reading. They are my only. In the past three years I have not picked up a big heavy, bulky book that in no way I could fit in my pocket. In that that time I have read something like 100 novels!

For ebooks to be widely read I think three things must happen:
1) Portable devices must be in use by most people.
2)There needs to be a common, and fair method of digital rights management.
3) The price of an ebook has to be conceived as being fair....whatever that may be....cheaper, or a better understanding of the value of them.

Dave

[Dave Beauvais]

My biggest problem now is the price of e-books. I purchase all my e-books from Palm Digital Media (a.k.a. Peanut Press). They have an increasingly growing line of popular books by well-known authors, and their sci-fi section is pretty nice. (My favorite genre.) However, I've noticed an annoying trend at PDM recently. They will offer a series of books where the first part of the story is released followed by the second book a month or so later, and so on until the end of the series. The problem is the first one costs between US$5 and $10 while the following ones cost at least twice that! :evil: It feels almost like bait-and-switch to me.

I bought a book one out of a series of three several months ago for about $6, read it all the way through in two days, and waited patiently for the next book. When it was finally released about a month later, the second book cost $21! 8O After doing a double-take, I decided the story was certainly not interesting enough to justify such an absurd jump in price, and left the site without ordering.

I did not purchase anything else from PDM for a few weeks, but have since purchased several titles. I am very skeptical now whenever I see a series of books announced with book one priced around $6 or so. This is one (http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/book.cgi/0743475631) I bought last week when it was announced in their weekly newsletter. I just find myself wondering what book "two of two" will cost when it comes out...

--Dave

[Skoobouy]

My only reason is that there are so many free texts available that are perfectly interesting to read that the new stuff, while certainly interesting, never strikes me as something I need to buy.

[davidspalding]

Wow, what a response. I only posted a few hours ago, right? ,:)

I take offense, personally, that the reason eBooks aren't selling like hot cakes is that a) people prefer paper books, or b) it's a "geek thing." Balderdash.

Correction is in order, I'm not offended that people prefer paper books. I do too, particularly for technical references which I need to have on my lap <ahem>, not on the computer "over there," away from what I'm working on.

I mean, I take offense at teh publishing industry's and media's contention that the reason that ebooks aren't taking off in a big way is that consumers don't want them (the few people who do are geeks), and general readers (including online shoppers) still prefer paper books. Taken another way, "ebooks are a geek thing, the general reading public don't want them ... but we'll be damned if we drop the price to entice new ebook buyers. Geeks have sufficient money to compensate us for ebook publication expenses."

Of course, thsi is only my perspective, and I'm really looking forward to reading all the responses to this thread, to get some other opinions.

[Rudism]

If you are welcome to the books for free get a couple of them at a time and save some bandwidth for other users.

In the case of Abika, I could tell they weren't going to be around for long. The PDFs were clearly mass produced somehow (with their logo branded all over them), they were out to make money where there's none to be made (I forget their exact business plan... but there was money involved somehow). I figured if I didn't act fast the resource would be lost soon. I was right too... It lasted only a few months after I copied their archive.

I have much more respect for sites like yours (http://esspc-ebooks.com/), or PSU's Electronic Classics Site (http://www.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/jimspdf.htm) which are clearly labours of love as opposed to the more sterile approach that Abika had been taking at the time.

[M@]

I personally think that eBooks should not be compared to regular reading, there are times and places for both. Some people like them, some people don't. It is literally a matter of circumstance and opinion.

What is most important is, unless big companies don't go the way they went with MP3's, by that I mean, ignoring them untill they became an uncontrollable problem, they will have a huge problem with the likely result in the death of accessable books to non-computer users: Conclusion: They must lower the prices.

It doesn't take much time for an owner of a regular paperback, hardback or whatever book to copy it into a digital format if they have a text recognising scanner... or if they get an audio version, they could teach Microsoft Word to recognise Steven Fry's voice.

So arguing eBooks could cause legal issues is pointless, because they already are!

Lowering the prices, however, will lure people out of the inconvenience of pirate eBooks.

They will have to provide cheap, reliable and error-free electronic copies of popular books, and only then will the problem will begin to be tackled.

[Don't Panic!]

I'm an other. :lol: I buy at least 5 e-books a month between www.baen.com and www.fictionwise.com .

Don't Panic!
Bobby

[Kaber]

Are you a pirate if you freely distribute information regardless of intellectual property laws? or are you Robin Hood?

I haven't bought any ebooks. I don't ever plan too. I'd rather just broadcast them. Like a book van (http://www.manhattan.lib.ks.us/nckl/van/calbkvan.html) on the internet, dropping books off at the other libraries.

No more secrets.

[Crystal Eitle]

Are you a pirate if you freely distribute information regardless of intellectual property laws? or are you Robin Hood?

Robin Hood robbed from the rich to give to the poor. Most authors aren't rich.

And we're not poor.

[ombu]

eBooks aren't proliferating for one reason: there aren't enough devices. Until PDAs are as common as cell phones (which, in their current form, they never will be), there's not enough of a critical mass of eBook-capable devices. Until the mass market really understands and adopts mobile computing, mobile digital document reading (eBooks) won't become a reality.


I agree this is the main reason, just let me add something, among PDA owners there are a lot (not PPCT vistors of course :wink: ) who don't know they can buy e-books or find themselves uncomfortable with the whole purchase process, downloading and so, my $0.02.

Just look arround you, I've got a lot of friends with latest model PDA's (PPC or Palm) who run only 3rd party apps when someone like me (not a geek at all) takes them all the way to install such apps on their devices, not to say going through MS activation for Reader. :cry:

Regards.

[Kaber]

I'm talking about intelligence, not money. Data. Poor in data. Authors have a lot of that, I hear tell.

And I wouldn't say everyone on this board is in the same tax bracket.

[Rudism]

And we're not poor.

Speak for yourself... :mecry:

[Ken Mattern]

I have much more respect for sites like yours (http://esspc-ebooks.com/), or PSU's Electronic Classics Site (http://www.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/jimspdf.htm) which are clearly labours of love as opposed to the more sterile approach that Abika had been taking at the time.

Point taken. It is a labor of love. It pleases me to see so many people visiting my site. In the days of mass downloadings I couldn't even get on to my own site to maintain it! That's why I changed my delivery method. Now you at least have to do some coding to get them all.

I think, however that my presentation method is pretty good so that the browser can find a particualr book. Some places make that almost impossible.

[M@]

Responding the crime of corporations would not be a good way to describe it.

Greedy, selfish human being instinct would be a good way to describe it. Big Cheeses want more money, they charge more, consumers wants to pay less, so they buy for less or complain if its not cheap enough.

Nobody wins.

Someone has to give in, and consumers won't ever give in. They will just find another company, or illegal peer to peer file transfer program, that will offer free or near-free files.

[ombu]

WOT

Hey Crystal, where's your avatar? Just miss such eye-candy when reading posts here, BRING IT BACK!!! :D

Cheers.

[Crystal Eitle]

I'm talking about intelligence, not money. Data. Poor in data. Authors have a lot of that, I hear tell.
Authors have a lot of data because their time is spent in digging it up. Don't they deserve to get compensated for that?

And I wouldn't say everyone on this board is in the same tax bracket.
I'm sure I make less money than many people here. I work as an administrative assistant. But if you can afford a Pocket PC, you're not poor.

[Janak Parekh]

And we're not poor.
Speak for yourself... :mecry:
If you can afford a PDA, I don't think you fall into the poverty category, at least in the US, where they can barely afford to put food on the table.

Hey Crystal, where's your avatar? Just miss such eye-candy when reading posts here, BRING IT BACK!!!
Oh come on, her new avatar is awesome. How can you not like The Cheat? :D

--janak

[Kaber]

Who's the guy from 21 jump street?

Not The Cheat
Not The Cheat

The Cheat!


I really lose hope when people jump to conclusions like "Has PDA = not poor"
Or "poor = like africa starving dirty poor"
Or "pirates make artists starve"

[egads]

I don't think ebooks will ever catch on. A PPC screen is too small and who wants to sit in front of a PC and read a book ?

A book will never run low on batteries, get a cracked screen when you drop it, fail to work becauses of DRM, ...

[M@]

The real poor people are the ones making this Pocket PC's in Sweatshops in Thailand.

You can all afford an eBook.

[Rudism]

If you can afford a PDA, I don't think you fall into the poverty category, at least in the US, where they can barely afford to put food on the table.

I wish I could afford a PDA...

[M@]

I don't think ebooks will ever catch on. A PPC screen is too small and who wants to sit in front of a PC and read a book ?

A book will never run low on batteries, get a cracked screen when you drop it, fail to work becauses of DRM, ...

They will catch on. No doubt about that.

- P/PCs are improving everyday
- More and more people everyday sit in front of a PC, so why not read a book: it is better for you than playing a computer game.
- Books fall to pieces, get water spilt on them, fall to bits, paper rips, they can be lost. - Thank you all for your help and advice. Especially etalianstallion, dh and Pony99CA your comments have really helped my decision.-- Not that P/PC don't do these things, but books are indestructable.

[Crystal Eitle]

Who's the one with yellow feet? The Cheat! The Cheat!

I just think there needs to be a balance. DRM protections are bad, because they hurt the consumer. But as long as people openly brag about pirating materials, corporations are going to incorporate stupid DRM measures.

I do think our copyright laws are too strict - 70 years was enough, and 90 years is far too long. Once an author/artist/musician creates something, it belongs to humanity. They should be able to profit from it during their lifetime, but corporations should not be able to continue to profit from an artistic creation that is the legacy of humanity after its creator is long dead.

If not for the recent changes in copyright law, The Hobbit would have passed into public domain this year. I think the way copyright law is instituted in the US is a shame.

However, pirating materials, and then bruiting it about in an open forum, is not the answer.

[Jimmy Dodd]

I like ebooks. I haven't bought a paperback novel since I started shopping peanutpress and fictionwise. On the other hand I still buy lots of books that I want to have on my shelves. Mostly these are tech books (diagrams and code samples don't translate well to a PPC screen size) or History books (which I collect). But for just plain, simple reading pleasure it's ebooks all the way for me.

[onepieceman]

I'm a convert to e-books. Why? Because I can read in bed without waking my wife, and can then continue reading on the train without increasing the weight of my already overloaded briefcase! In fact, I find "real" books a real nuisance from both respects.
That said, there's still all the reasons why real books are better; which for me are (in order of importance);

a) Availability (by far the most important)
b) DRM, or lack thereof (well aired already)
c) Bigger surface area (I really need an A5 sized tablet PC I think, A4 is just too big and cumbersome, and PocketPC size is a touch too small)

[M@]

Who's the one with yellow feet? The Cheat! The Cheat!

I just think there needs to be a balance. DRM protections are bad, because they hurt the consumer. But as long as people openly brag about pirating materials, corporations are going to incorporate stupid DRM measures.

I do think our copyright laws are too strict - 70 years was enough, and 90 years is far too long. Once an author/artist/musician creates something, it belongs to humanity. They should be able to profit from it during their lifetime, but corporations should not be able to continue to profit from an artistic creation that is the legacy of humanity after its creator is long dead.

If not for the recent changes in copyright law, The Hobbit would have passed into public domain this year. I think the way copyright law is instituted in the US is a shame.

However, pirating materials, and then bruiting it about in an open forum, is not the answer.

-- Awareness is there regardless of how much bragging you do in forums.

About the copyright law --> What's the Author's is the Author's. Forever. Its up to them whether they want to benefit from their work or not. Every parent wants the best for their children.

[Cameron_Talley]

I really prefer paper books. I like the feel of them. I like going to used bookstores and buying an old book that has traveled around to places unknown. Its like reading a peice of history. I jsut can't really explain it.

I think ebooks are great for short stories, poetry, etc. But I have problems reading complete novels.

Right now, I am reading "Oliver Twist" on my PPC. I am about a fourth of the way through, but it is difficult. I don't feel that sense of compelling interest that I feel when reading a book. Usually one chapter is about all I can take.

Also, the small size of the PPC screen means LOTS of "page turns;" this gets quite tedious after awhile. Yes, you can make the text size smaller, but then it gets harder to read.

For me, ebooks will never go "mainstream;" I'll stick to paper. But for certain applications and short reading, I think they can do well

[Kaber]

Thanks to Michael Powell, we can expect things to get much worse regarding DRM/DMCA.

Amazing how the voices of hundreds of thousands can go totally unheard and hardly a blip on the TV make.

Robin Hood.

[PPCRules]

ebooks cut cost dramatically and that savings should be passed on to the consumer.

WRONG...Sorry, but it's wrong. :)

... [compares bookstore to peanut press] ...

Consider all this for a few minutes then tell me which you think is going to bring you a higher profit margin?

PART OF THE PICTURE ...Sorry, but it's part of the picture. :)

Now take the suggestions made here by potential customers so acceptance is increased, say, threefold. Which distribution method has the much larger incremental cost? The physical distribution, of course. The very minimal incremental costs of ebooks is obvious to the potential purchaser, and if that savings is not passed on to the customer, there will be no sale.

"which ... is going to bring you a higher profit margin?" The one that makes the sale.

[Crystal Eitle]

About the copyright law --> What's the Author's is the Author's. Forever. Its up to them whether they want to benefit from their work or not. Every parent wants the best for their children.

No it isn't. U.S. copyright law, and the whole concept of "public domain," is based on the notion that artistic creations belong to all of humanity, with the author (and the author's family) having the right to profit from them for a limited number of years.

In fact, copyright was originally for a much shorter period of time, and keeps increasing decade by decade (spurred on by corporations like Disney, who don't want to see the Mickey of "Steamboat Willie" pass into public domain).

Under your philosophy, Shakespeare's, Jane Austen's, Charles Dickens's and Mark Twain's works would still be under copyright, with their many-generations-removed descendants retaining the rights to their stories. Imagine what this would be like.

[kcchesnut]

a Tablet PC would be the right ebook device for me.

dont like sitting at the computer for hours (unless coding),
and the pocket pc screen is too small.

[ombu]

Under your philosophy, Shakespeare's, Jane Austen's, Charles Dickens's and Mark Twain's works would still be under copyright, with their many-generations-removed descendants retaining the rights to their stories. Imagine what this would be like.
Easy, a relatives war and a lawyers firm heaven :lol: everything adding cost for readers. :cry:

[disconnected]

It's hard to average, but in a normal month I'm likely to buy five or six ebooks and twice as many paperbacks. I'd prefer it to be the other way around, but not enough of the books I want (mysteries, but not thrillers) are available as ebooks. I hardly ever buy hardcovers anymore, because they're not portable enough. (I'll pay nearly hardcover prices for new ebooks, but I guess that puts me in the minority).

My reading doesn't usually quite keep up with my buying, which isn't a problem with paperbacks, but is a little worrying with ebooks, particularly Microsoft reader books, because there is always the fear that the format will be unreadable by the time I get to it, or I will have copied it to too many devices so I can no longer unlock it.

I'd also be very happy if I could buy the paperback (or hardcover) and get the ebook for an extra couple of dollars.

I guess price is an issue that publishers haven't really figured out yet. I think I read in an interview with a person from Peanut Press that the publishers set the price, and they're pretty inconsistent. Some publishers will set the ebook price at close to the hardcover price if both are released around the same time, and will then reduce the ebook price when the book comes out as a paperback; at least one publisher (St. Martin's Press) for a long while would keep the original ebook price, even after the book became available as a paperback. Recently Peanut Press advertised 25% price reductions on some of the St. Martin's ebooks (which still left them at a higher price than the paperbacks).

I don't know enough to measure the cost of producing ebooks versus hardcopy books, but certainly the perceived value is less -- you gain convenience, but lose the ability to keep them, loan them out, or pass them on.

I'm addicted enough to ebooks to pay a high price for them and put up with some DRM inconveniences , (I no longer have to confine myself to well-lit restaurants, for one thing)but I agree that they won't reach a really large audience until they are more reasonably priced and have some sort of standard format, and until more people carry some sort of PDA or ebook device.

[doogald]

Well, I answered because I prefer paper books - I really do, I find eBooks hard on the eyes and a pain because of all of the pagination (though I like the ability to search for text, so there are pros for eBooks) - but I could also have answered that the books that I am interested in are not available in eBook format.

Whenever I look at eBook titles that are available, I find a preponderence of what looks to be mediocre Sci Fi and mediocre erotica. I've got better things to read than mediocre books. I tend to read novels that have won or been nominated for awards, like the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Awards, the Booker Prize, or novels by authors who have won the Nobel Prize. I just don't find many books like that in eBook format.

I do keep an eBook classic or two on hand, for those times that I am waiting in line or something and I have exhausted my AvantGo sources. Currently I have "The Importancer Of Being Earnest", "King Lear", and "Little Women" in MS Reader. Get me more contemporary authors even remotely close to that and I may think of it. I nearly bought "Middlesex" a few weeks ago; I may actually do so when I finish the fifth Potter in a few weeks. ;)

[M@]

Just arguing the case for writers who try to live off you. If people stopped buying books, electronic or paper: they won't be able to write.

[Crystal Eitle]

Just arguing the case for writers who try to live off you. If people stopped buying books, electronic or paper: they won't be able to write.

I agree with you! :roll: Read my other posts :deal: :bangin: .

[Kaber]

Its all about the ends.

You will pay for the book or be branded a criminal. You will pay for the music or be branded a criminal. You will pay for the movie or be branded a criminal. You will pay your taxes or be branded a criminal. You will register your children at birth and send them to gov't approved schools or you will be branded a criminal.

You will watch TV. You will listen to the radio. You will read the newspapers. You will not be allowed to copy anything you see or hear in or on them... and we reserve the right to change the stories at any time.

Stay off the damned internet. It is all lies anyway.


If no one buys books, no one will write them? And I thought the aim of an artist was to create art for art's sake. I am so naive.

[leroymorrison]

Why buy when you can get them free?

[M@]

Why buy when you can get them free?

Why write books if you don't get paid?

Not everyone can just write books in their spare time.
They have to rely on it.

[Kati Compton]

If no one buys books, no one will write them? And I thought the aim of an artist was to create art for art's sake. I am so naive.
That is true, but if artists can't also make money from their work, only already-rich people could afford to be artists...

[disconnected]

Kaber,

Well, yes, if you steal the book or the music, you are a criminal.

When I read your posts, I begin to understand why we have DRM. There are lots of gray areas here (yes, I know many laws are bought and paid for by wealthy corporations and benefit only them, and probably the artist doesn't get his fair share of the profits from his work), but I don't think that means we don't need any laws.

Or maybe you're just kidding and I missed the joke.

Most of us need to make money to live. If it's impossible for artists, writers, musicians, etc. (and the people in related occupations that support them) to make money, then there will be almost no art, books, or music. Art for art's sake doesn't pay the rent.

[Kaber]

Or maybe you're just kidding and I missed the joke.

Art for art's sake doesn't pay the rent.

I like to play devil's advocate. Get it?

No landlords, no rent.

[garrans]

I think that there needs to better eBook readers out there. I really like the digital paper that has been reported on. Reading a book on the PocketPC is just a little too small, and my laptop is a little too big (A tablet PC might just be the correct size).

I'd also like to see eMagazines more. Pay less (no printing) and get all the ads that I can flip the pages on also.

[sesummers]

I'm in the "they cost too much" camp. Here's how I look at it.

The concept of "copyright" means "the right to make and sell copies". In traditional media, making a copy is expensive unless you make quantities, so you can capture (and protect) the value of the content by storing it in physical media that A) can only be one place at a time and B) wears out.

A hardcover book can be read maybe 50 times before it starts to fall apart. Most get passed around to at least a few readers- call it an average of 10 reads.

A paperback book can be read no more than a half dozen or so times before it falls apart- call that an average of 3 reads. A paperback costs about 40% or less of the cost of a hardcover, but part of that is because the media costs less to make and the reading experience isn't as good.

An e-book with DRM can only be read by ONE PERSON, because the rights are locked into the user's name. And it costs virtually NOTHING to produce a copy of.

So why should an e-book cost more than 1/4 the cost of a paperback? I should be able to buy a newly released novel for no more than $2 or $2.50 in e-book form. If that's what they actually cost, they'd be my preferred medium. But at their current prices of at least 2-3 times that, I'd rather buy the paperback.

[Paragon]

PART OF THE PICTURE ...Sorry, but it's part of the picture. :)

Ah... that's not true. That's a pretty fair and detailed comparison I made there. :)


"which ... is going to bring you a higher profit margin?" The one that makes the sale.

I think you are confusing total profits, and profit margins.

Dave

[davidspalding]

By the way.. I like the option "I feel uncomfortable paying for anything that's only digital" - if so, why would you pay for software? :D

Back in the day, you got CDs which were permanent ... a manual (or two, or three) which were permanent ... could get additional manuals for the cost of shipping ... got keyboard templates, rulers, quick reference cards, etc., which (say it with me) were permanent ....

Of course we have software now which you buy, download, and have to burn on your own permanent media. Viva shareware. But I don't buy all my software virtually. Some core applications, I want the old-fashioned stuff. Particularly if it's mission critical.

[Hooked]

eBooks are not intented to replace normal books, as they will always lack the warmth and substance of the printed page. Human beings ascribe an unreal quality to things we can't touch, so there will probably never be the same connection to an ebook as a good old paperback which bears a worn and tattered appearance from our own hands.

But, the ebook experience can easily be improved:

1) Cost - goes without saying, eBook publishing has a huge reduction in cost of production and distribution. Companies like Amazon already have the infrastructure and would be glad not to have to hassle with storage and distribution of printed materials. If you have created an electronic document, you already have done most of the work required to create an Ebook. Ebooks should be discounted at least by half compared to the printed version.

2) Presentation - something like the Philips E-ink demostrator which has two facing pages and less refresh flicker. The closer they can mimick the experience of a real book, the more accepting the public will be.
See the Press Release here http://www.eink.com/news/releases/pr69.html

3) Decouple the DRM from Presentation - everyone has a preference to a reader and a title should not be locked into a particular reader. Also, find a way to associate the title with the user rather than the hardware or software.

4) Enhance the content - take advantage of the processing power and storage available. Everyday more power is being crammed in more portable devices and eBooks should take advantage of this where appropriate. If you want to minimize the resources used, just sync up the text. If you want a richer experience, include music, animation, commentaries, etc.
Allow the user the flexibility to decide how much she wants to purchase or install. If publishers wish to charge a premium, they should realize that people are only going to pay for better content. Also, for wired/wireless devices, offer a seamless integration into web content such as discussion groups, links to related sites, etc.

5) More titles - Every book now published goes through a digital process. Simply standardize the process such that every printed book published has an eBook distribution as well. No more "no longer in print" messages or having to wait for the next printing or next edition.

Bottom line, wake-up and use some simple common sense. Media providers, be it music, video, or the written word, cannot seem to grasp the need to develop a new paradigm for the evolving information environment.
The artists and authors are the ones actually creating the value. The publishers are simply the middle men. If their business model continues to be based on manipulating and monopolizing distribution, they will continue to find themselves less and less relevent and will watch their revenue ever shrinking before their eyes, regardless of the laws they pass and the technology they use.

[davidspalding]

I stare at a screen for some ridiculous hours in a day, so sometimes it's nice to do something different and non-techie. Even with my LCD monitor and PPC, I find it much easier to read off of paper for long periods of time. Yes, I know that it's easier to take eBooks with you wherever you go so you can read in a spare moment, but that's not how I read. I read a book this weekend for the first time in a long while - I sat down around 5 or 6pm, read, broke for dinner, read, went to bed at 1 or 2 after finishing the book. This is how I read. I can't do the intermittent thing.
I feel the same, but a significant event changed my own prefs. We've both turned to reading at night; my baby daughter, who sleeps with us, wakes if we make too much noise or light in bed after she's gone down for the night. My wife's Itty Bitty Book Light casts a big glow, which can disturb Lillian. My LightWedge (side-lit plexiglass pane that you put on the page, and it illuminates just the page) casts less, but still lights up the bed a bit. My PDA ... with Mobipocket set to mid-blue text on black ... casts very little light. I find the regular click-page click-page to be inconvenient, but fortunately my Casio can scroll with the jog dial. So ebooks have become a good alternative to reading with a book light.

[Larrison]

Why don't I buy more e-books? I'm probably reading 20-30% of my personal book reading on ebooks now.

The reasons I don't buy more are:

a) Price. While some companies (such as Baen books) make their first run books available at a reasonable prive for an ebook, I can't see paying hardback prices for an e-book version of a new release book. Heck I won't even pay hardback prices for new hardbacks!. While I won't get into what a reasonable price point should be, I consider $1-3 dollars per book as my reasonable level.

b) Availability of titles. I read probably 3-5 books a week. Something way less than 10%, probably around 1-2% of the books I look at are easily available in ebook formats. I've noted a few others which are available in almost unpublicized locations at publisher's web sites, but they are priced almost the same as new hardbacks. While there are some reasonable ebook sites, it is difficult to find most new releases in ebook form.

And to compound this, when I do search out a new release I want to read, it's priced high -- so I just don't buy it.

[Kati Compton]

No landlords, no rent.

No landlords, no apartment buildings.

[thomas1973]

For novels, I prefer paper. But then again, I'm pretty nostalgic with certain things. I want my novels on paper, I want my wine cork made of real cork, and for taking pictures, I prefer film over digital. So what am I doing with a PPC? Well, I guess some things aren't very rational. And my feelings towards books are one of them.

However, I feel tecnical books, factual books and reference works are great for computers and PPC's. The reason I don't buy more of these, is that they're usually badly adopted. They're just ported over from paper to computer, without using the potential of the new medium. They should be using hyperlinks where ever they could, linking the whole thing together. I think publisher don't put enough effort into their PPC editions, as they don't really see it as an important marked, yet they keep the prices right up there with their paper editions. It pisses me off that they just copy over the textfile and sell it, with no regard for all the potential of computers/PPC's.

But maybe this discussion was going more for the novel on paper vs. PPC debate?


Thomas.

[Kaber]

No landlords, no rent.

No landlords, no apartment buildings.

You must live in the city

Landlords do not build apartment buildings. Laborers do.

[Kati Compton]

Ah... that's not true. That's a pretty fair and detailed comparison I made there. :)
Mostly. I might say that the cost of warehousing and shipping the books to stores is what should be compared to the cost of storing and delivering eBooks. But for hardcopy books you still have to pay more people (how many people working at each location? how many people transporting?), and that's just at the seller end... But since I don't know actual costs here, it's hard to argue.

Now the real problem as I see it is the difference in "cost" at the publisher end. They have the .doc file or whatever of the book. They need to have the software to translate that into an eBook. Once they do, they press the button. Much different than buying all that paper and ink. So while one might argue that the costs of selling an eBook might not be significantly lower than selling a physical book, the costs of producing one is. Remember that author royalties are really such a small percentage of the book's price. Ask Jason Dunn - I bet he would know.

I don't in any way begrudge the royalties. What bothers me is the publisher telling me by having an equivalent (if not higher) price that it's somehow just as hard if not harder to make an eBook.

There's a difference if someone has to sit there and retype it or check the OCR, but current works by current authors - it should be a breeze for publishers. And the consumers are not benefitting from this.

To address an earlier complaint about new books in a series being expensive.... That doesn't actually bother me TOO much. It's reminicent of the more expensive tickets at first-run theaters and the higher price of hardback books (it can't be *that* much of a price difference to produce... it's gotta be inflated, which is why stores can offer "new bestseller" discounts). Higher price for new stuff. I just think the amounts are wrong, and I'd be very disappointed if the prices didn't drop approximately when the paperback (i.e. "second run") version came out.

[Kati Compton]

No landlords, no apartment buildings.
You must live in the city.
What, there's a lot of free apartments somewhere that we're all missing out on?

[pjtrader]

I have to make a certain point about the cost of books. Regardless of whether they're e-books or print books, the publisher incurs a rather substantial cost to produce them. Now, I can't speak for e-publishers, but print books that are also available in e-book format should NOT necessarily cost less than the print version. Why? All the same overhead costs are still a part of the publishing process, including the ADDED expense of maintaining the e-book version and delivery methods.

Also, you must remember the profit to the author is part of the cost we pay for the books. In today's economy, is it fair to ask an author to produce a 400 page manuscript but earn less per copy than their print counterparts simply because of the format the book is delivered in? Of course not.

As a writer, I can tell you that print publishers do not yet accept electronic submission of manuscripts. E-publishers might, but they still have to copy-read, line edit, and otherwise proof the manuscript before converting it into their delivery format.

As a reader, I have to agree with the posts that relate to reading e-books on a computer screen. I'm tied to a desktop for my "day" job and a laptop or desktop for my writing career. At time when I'm sick of a computer (I know, I know...but it DOES happen), I prefer a print book.

There are times, however, when I prefer an ebook on my PDA, however. When I travel, I can carry five books easily on my PDA. That doesn't happen nearly as well with my carry on luggage! I like the luxury having a book on my PDA whenever I want...whether that's while waiting for my dentist appointment or when I'm sneaking a read as the PDA stays docked just behind my desktop monitor where the boss thinks I'm staring intently at my work.

There are pros and cons to both sides of the fence and I believe that there is a place in the world for both. I expect to pay for either version, just like I have to pay for the PPC version of Quicken over and above the desktop version.

Them's my 2cents worth.

Cheers,
Pam

[Kati Compton]

Also, you must remember the profit to the author is part of the cost we pay for the books. In today's economy, is it fair to ask an author to produce a 400 page manuscript but earn less per copy than their print counterparts simply because of the format the book is delivered in? Of course not.
While we've had some comments about people not wanting to pay at all for books, I don't think *anyone* would say that the *authors* should earn less for an eBook than a paper copy. The question is more distributors/publishers.

As a writer, I can tell you that print publishers do not yet accept electronic submission of manuscripts. E-publishers might, but they still have to copy-read, line edit, and otherwise proof the manuscript before converting it into their delivery format.
Interesting. This seems very strange to me. When my husband wrote his book, I know they accepted electronic for everything but the graphics. But once it's converted into their delivery format, at this point, the remaining cost of producing an eBook file and producing a paper copy are much different.

[Crystal Eitle]

Nevertheless, there is a perception that eBooks cost less to produce. Retailers are going to have to cater to that perception if they want to sell eBooks.

And pricing it lower does not have to cut into the author royalty. There must be some costs involved in making the paper version that are eliminated in the electronic version.

The suggestion about releasing electronic texts at the same time as paper texts was an excellent one. My main problem with eBooks is that the titles I want are not available. If more current titles were available, I would buy far more.

[KH]

I have essentially switched my reading purchases to the ebook, with only a few exceptions. I looked the other day and the numbers surprised me - bewteen books I have purchased for myself and books I gave my husband we are in the many hundreds category. I still buy the occasional physical book if it is one for which I have been breathlessy waiting, but I have also purchased physical books that have yet to be read because they are too inconvenient - I never have them with me when I want them, or I can't have the lights on, or they are just too noisy, or...

I am fairly comfortable with making my purchases these days from Baen, or Fictionwise, or Palm. Palm Readers work on so many devices now that I really don't think I will lose access to my books. (I do stay away from Microsoft encryption for this reason though.)

The biggest benefit I have from these books is that I don't have to store them, or move several boxes out of the way to get to the box that MIGHT have that old book when I want to re-read a passage in the middle of the night. I would love to replace every sci-fi and fantasy book I have collected over the past forty years with an ebook.

My satisfaction with paying is directly related to the desire I have for a book. If a book has just hit the stands in hard back format, and the costs of introducing the books are perhaps being covered by the price of the initial offering, I expect to pay more. Sometimes I even get to have the book before it hits the stands. Older books seem to be priced at a discount, and there are also various other discounts available on these sites. I can shop when the stores are closed and have instant gratification when I download a book.

I find that ebooks on my IPAQ have easily become my prefered media, and my biggest frustration is that many things don't come out as ebooks when I want them. But I have also found that so much is available I might just wait a little longer - or a lot longer - before I feel the need to buy a physical book.

[pcause]

I am really offended that they want to charge me the same amount for an ebook that they do for a paperback or hard cover. This is outrageous. We know that the publisher's cost is much lower then for a prnted book. And the distributor's costs aren't high either. If they'd price these puppies so that they were cheaper then the physical books, they'd move.

The DRM stuff is also a major bother and annoyance. I want to be able to read an ebook on multiple devices. I don't want to have to think about it. I loan books, printed ones, to friends and get some in return. I can't do this with ebooks. Couple that with the price and it is a DOUBLE rip off. I hate the DRM stuff, even if I understand the issues that drive it. DRM needs major improvement. Loaning books should be possible. Music too.

Finally, I find that it isn't as convenient to read an ebook. Not enough text on the page, etc. Pain to keep scrolling. Lots of mechanical things that I dislike.

[normaldude]

Because with regular books, I can buy it used on Amazon.com / Half.com, read the book, then sell it used on Amazon.com / Half.com.

Net Cost: maybe $1 or $2. (maybe even free if I get a good selling price)


With an ebook, I have to buy it new, and I can't sell it when I'm done.

Net Cost: $20-30.

[koriel]

I have a large collection of paper books. Things you can't get with eBooks:

Autographed first editions...

I guess a digital signature just wouldn't be the same ... you can image the conversations amongst collectors:

"... and that 10101011001 proves it was really Stephen King!"

:lol:

[dean_shan]

I like eBooks for their ease and portability. I like 110 miles away from the nearest bookstore. It's just easier to buy an ebook then a paperback. I only buy PalmReader format because I like the way that is is secured. No activation, just your card number. The one thing that bother's me about eBooks is that some authors feel the need to charge as much for one as a hard back. Forget that. I anly buy ebooks if they are paperback price or less. Paper and eBooks both have their advantages, I'm split on what kind a like best.

[Kati Compton]

The one thing that bother's me about eBooks is that some authors feel the need to charge as much for one as a hard back.
Unless the author is also the publisher, I don't think the author controls the price.

[Zanne]

When I got my Axim, I bought the first two books in the Dragonriders series in e-book format. I read them in bed. I flipped pages with my thumb. I enjoyed it. It was a pleasant experience.

Then I bought the rest of the series in paperback.

Reason #1: it costs less to buy them on paper (which is ABSURD).

Reason #2: a PPC is simply too small. I don't want to read a book that has 3.5" sized pages.

I want my e-books to be the same size as a mass-market hardcover, say, 5" x 8". This would also be a very practical size for a "sub-tablet" or "super-PPC" device, a la Captain Picard's fictional data pad. Make one and sell it for $799 and I will be first in line to buy it. And then I will make all my future book purchases in e-book format - as long as the price of the e-books fall into line.

[Kati Compton]

I want my e-books to be the same size as a mass-market hardcover, say, 5" x 8". This would also be a very practical size for a "sub-tablet" or "super-PPC" device, a la Captain Picard's fictional data pad. Make one and sell it for $799 and I will be first in line to buy it. And then I will make all my future book purchases in e-book format - as long as the price of the e-books fall into line.
I agree that this is my ideal tablet size as well. I use a paper planner with my PPC, and the planner is that size. I think it would increase the comfort of eBook reading for me too.

[Paragon]

I consider $1-3 dollars per book as my reasonable level.

This is not an uncommon thought for many people. As long as that is the case ebooks will never take off. Why would a publisher put out a hardback for 30-40 bucks, and undercut his own price by such a huge amount. I can understand, and agree with being able to buy books that have been on the market for a while at a very reasonable price...a buck or 2, but to buy new releases at anything much less than the price of the current hard/paper price isn't going to be seen as a good business model by many publishers.

So, I guess the consumer, and the publishers both have a very long way to go if ebooks are ever going to be mainstream. :(

Dave

[davidspalding]

.... I wish I had a good dictionary that allowed me to lookup a word when I hear it in conversation. I think it's great that MS dictionary allows me to click on the word as I read a book and get a definition...but it's not friendly when just trying to lookup a word. ....

Try the Oxford Press references on Mobipocket. Affordable, much faster than Microslow's Encarta slug (even on my 150 Mhz Casio), and works with Mobipocket Reader (which will also read .TXT, .HTML files). I find Mobi is THE reader for my downloaded newsletters, found pages on the web, and eBooks which I can convert to .PRC.

[ctmagnus]

I love :ppclove: ebooks. They r0x0r! :rock on dude!: except for three reasons:

1) non-ebooks are so much more aesthetically pleasing.

2) non-ebooks are so much more ergonomically pleasing. To be perfectly honest, my arms get sore after reading on a PPC for a while. And reading on a monitor is essentially "in one eye, out the other" for me.

3) I find ebooks to be rather "wiring". I can usually read 10-15 (if that) pages of a hardcopy book in bed and be ready to fall asleep. It takes me much, much longer timewise to get sleepy reading an ebook.

[Crystal Eitle]

3) I find ebooks to be rather "wiring". I can usually read 10-15 (if that) pages of a hardcopy book in bed and be ready to fall asleep. It takes me much, much longer timewise to get sleepy reading an ebook.
Yeah, same here. It takes me much longer to get sleepy looking at my Pocket PC in bed. I wonder if it's because there is light shinging directly in your eyes - it would be interesting if someone did a study on that.

[ctmagnus]

I am a total failure at going to the library.

I can't help it, but this springs to mind:

http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/images/extinstruct_files/image002.gif

:D

[Crystal Eitle]

My favorite Far Side cartoon ever! Whenever I or someone else tries to open a door the wrong way, I say "school for the gifted!"

[beq]

I blame Pendergrast et. al for making Fictionwise and its ilk so addicting, for wasting countless hours of my time (well I guess I should blame the scifi authors) :evil:

And I love/hate that I don't get get sleepy reading on my PPC, so much the faster I can finish the story...

[Raynne]

Personally, if it is a book I truly enjoy, I want a paper copy. But I like being able to carry 10-20 books with me on vacation without having to fill a suitcase. I do not buy more e-books because I cannot see paying the same price for an e-book that I would pay for a paper copy.

[baralong]

I've been reading more and more eBooks lately, since I discovered uBook as a reader. less wasted space than reader, reads most non-secure (insecure :wink: ) formats, except lit.

I don't prefer paper to the ebook any more, although I'm more likely to read paper in the bath (there a drop only costs me $20 max and it's more likely to dry)

The main reason I don't purchase more ebooks is price. Yes, having the ebook drastically cheeper than the new hard cover undercuts the publisher, but as the article said: most people prefer paper.

For my self, if I realy like the book I currently purchase 2 formats; hardcover to get it when it's first available, and paperback for later re-reads and lending. If the ebook were cheeper then I'd probably buy it too.

I think it's reasonable to see it as a 3 tier system, scaling down in cost:
Hard cover
Paper back
ebook

A paperback is about 1/4 the cost of the hard cover and the ebook should be about 1/4 the cost of that (1/16 of the hard cover).

If under cutting is a real problem then stagger the releases. There are many books that have been out for a few years I'd like electronically (eg a few by Oliver Sacks, Harry Potter Series ...) although if Order of Phoenix for some books (order of the phoenix) I'd be champing at the bit the the electronic version to be available.

BTW did someone say 10 reads for a hard cover and 6 for a paperback 8O you must be realy hard on your books! Most of my favourite paperbacks have 10+ reads (re-reads and loans) and are still going strong.

[doogald]

A paperback is about 1/4 the cost of the hard cover and the ebook should be about 1/4 the cost of that (1/16 of the hard cover).


FWIW, for most of the books that I read, which tend to come out in trade paperback, the paperback is closer to half the price of the hardback.

I wouldn't mind seeing the cost of e-Books at just under hardcover price at book launch, with the price falling to lower-than-paperback price when the paperback edition is released. There are some books that I'd buy in e-Book format at the high price, but most I'd wait. Just like I do now for paperback versions...

[davidspalding]

3) There are additional compelling reasons to own one.
My point #3 above about other compelling reasons to own an ebook reader refers to uses beyond just reading books. I don't buy many books but I do read a lot of magazines and the Wall Street Journal. Whatever device is to become the dominant ebook reader - PDA, dedicated platform, TabletPC, etc. - also needs to have other uses to justify its purchase. Otherwise it only appeals to a small segment of avid book purchasers who are also early adopters of technology. That market is not large enough to drive the price down for mass consumption.

I read some news, and newsletters, in my eBook reader of choice. Despite what you may've seen in Microsoft REader files, the Open Ebook Publishing Standard (OEBPS) offers the ability create magazines and robust reference material in an eBook format. (I converted The Jargon File for my own use as an exercise; it rocks, better even than HTML.) Now, not many people seem to be doing this. But the ability is already there. I'm disappointed that this Reuters article failed to convey either consumer points of view, or the vastly more flexible potential of eBooks.

Think Mobipocket or uBook reader, on a Tablet PC. ;)

[Kati Compton]

I wouldn't mind seeing the cost of e-Books at just under hardcover price at book launch, with the price falling to lower-than-paperback price when the paperback edition is released. There are some books that I'd buy in e-Book format at the high price, but most I'd wait. Just like I do now for paperback versions...
I second that motion. Do we have a third? ;)

[Paragon]

I'll third it........although it is in practice now, but I don't think wide enough yet.

Dave

[davidspalding]

Don't do this! Depending on the site hosting contract, this kind of shenanigans can cost the domain user a lot of money. Witness the story (which I can't find now, d'oh!) of the guy who offered a free book or PDF online, and a few days later found his ISP billing him for thou$and$ in over-bandwidth fees. He pulled the file, and his ISP cut him some slack, but ... not all stories end so happily.

I got nosey though and figured out their book naming scheme, and their URL system, so I wrote a tool that would systematically go through their site and download every single PDF they offered.

[dh]

I agree. I would pay paperback price for an e-book I really wanted. Never would I pay hardback price, if a publisher is robbing their customers to that extent they can hardly complain when people pirate their products. The book has to be produced in digital form to run on the presses so the incremental cost of the e-book is practically zero. Distribution costs can only be a few percent of the costs of distributing paper books as well. Not many trucks, aeroplanes and warehouses are needed to put a file on a hard drive on a server.

If the publishers were to produce both formats and launch them at the same time with this kind of pricing, I believe it would increase total sales and revenue. People who wanted the hardback would still buy it and many would go for the digital version. Some would probably buy both.

The traditional media industry, whether music, movies or books seems to have real trouble in getting to grips with new technology. All this DRM stuff is a waste of time, whatever they do someone is going to beat them and the harder they make it for their paying customers, the more of them will give up and go the pirate route.

[davidspalding]

I bought a book one out of a series of three several months ago for about $6, read it all the way through in two days, and waited patiently for the next book. When it was finally released about a month later, the second book cost $21! 8O After doing a double-take, I decided the story was certainly not interesting enough to justify such an absurd jump in price, and left the site without ordering.

I did not purchase anything else from PDM for a few weeks, but have since purchased several titles. I am very skeptical now whenever I see a series of books announced with book one priced around $6 or so. This is one (http://www.palmdigitalmedia.com/book.cgi/0743475631) I bought last week when it was announced in their weekly newsletter. I just find myself wondering what book "two of two" will cost when it comes out...

--Dave

I wonder if that was Simon & Shuster (the publisher) not PDM pulling that trick (or was it another publisher?). I checked Fictionwise.com and noted the same "book 1" notation.

Um. ... will they do this nonsense with teh paper version of Homecoming? One would hope not, the paperbacks are the same price.

Homecoming Adventure book 1 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/074346754X/korovamultimediaA)
Homecoming Adventure book 2 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0743467558/korovamultimediaA)

Of course, the sequel has 7 of 9-D cup on the cover, so "production costs" of that ebook may be higher. ;)

[davidspalding]

I'm sure I make less money than many people here. I work as an administrative assistant. But if you can afford a Pocket PC, you're not poor.

Woah, Nellie. People can get PDAs from work, or as presents, or buy them used on eBay, or ... steal them (no one HERE, of COURSE), or .... Not every punter plunked down $600+ for their PDA. My entire kit cost less than $300, not bought all at once either. So :P to that presumption!

Signed,

Cheapskate

[disconnected]

I agree with doogald's comment on price structure. I don't think it's reasonable to expect that a new release would be a whole lot less than the hardcover, except for special promotions, because I think publishers would view a certain percentage of the ebook sales as taking away from hardcover sales at the higher price.

Baralong,

For reading in the bath, try an aquapac --

http://www.styluscentral.com/aqwatpdacas.html

[Janak Parekh]

Woah, Nellie. People can get PDAs from work, or as presents, or buy them used on eBay, or ... steal them (no one HERE, of COURSE), or .... Not every punter plunked down $600+ for their PDA. My entire kit cost less than $300, not bought all at once either. So :P to that presumption!
Still, given a $300 PDA, ebooks are relatively cheap. I agree that, in theory, a person below the poverty line could be given a PDA. But would they have a computer capable of syncing, and Internet access? Unless, of course, you're a student who's living on a very tight budget and need to run everything by your parents. ;)

--janak

[dean_shan]

[quote="baralong"]I think it's reasonable to see it as a 3 tier system, scaling down in cost:
Hard cover
Paper back
ebook
[quote]
I couldn't agree more

[Kati Compton]

Sounds like we have a consensus. Crystal - you are hereby nominated to take our proposal to the major publishers and convince them we're right, which we are. ;)

[yvilla]

As for the cost of ebooks, one point I haven't seen really made strongly here is this: I read a lot, and go through a ton of books really fast. So, I'm an inveterate garage sale, library sale, used book store, rummage sale book buyer. I buy books by the shopping bag, or at 15 to 25 cents each for paperbacks, 50 cents to a dollar max for hard cover. Compared to those kinds of prices, ebooks are extremely costly; so that's why I don't buy more ebooks, even though I would definitely prefer to have more.

I'd like to see more lending library availability of ebooks. I'm a member of Fictionwise's Knowbetter Library but read too fast for one source like that to keep me in reading material for my PPC. Am hoping their plan to expand by providing their services to public libraries is successful, and that my own Public Library will someday soon allow me to borrow ebooks!

[Janak Parekh]

I'd like to see more lending library availability of ebooks. I'm a member of Fictionwise's Knowbetter Library but read too fast for one source like that to keep me in reading material for my PPC. Am hoping their plan to expand by providing their services to public libraries is successful, and that my own Public Library will someday soon allow me to borrow ebooks!
The problem with this is that it's hard to do. One would have to build expiration into the ebook, as you couldn't return it. And, of course people would hack the expiration date (or just the date on their Pocket PCs wrong).

That said, I'd like to see someone give a good crack at it, too. The challenges aren't easy to surmount, but there are workarounds.

--janak

[Paragon]

That said, I'd like to see someone give a good crack at it, too. The challenges aren't easy to surmount, but there are workarounds.

--janak

You mean like this:

http://www.libwise.com/knowbetter/

I haven't tried it....yet, so I can't tell you much about it.

Dave

[Janak Parekh]

You mean like this:

http://www.libwise.com/knowbetter/
Well, yvilla already commented on that one. :) My point was somewhat unclear: publishers are reluctant to apply loan models because of the potential hackability, I think.

--janak

[Paragon]

So damn many posts in this thread it's easy to miss the odd one. :)

Dave

[Kati Compton]

It certainly has been one of the faster-growing threads that I've seen!

[gdenerval]

There's only ONE reason that people don't read more e-books: the display quality! Nothing else matters! It's people saying they don't want to be spending all day staring at a screen. Once there are displays on the market at print-quality resolution, the rest will follow. All the arguments about distribution, pricing, etc, pale beside the one big form factor fumble: get this right, industry! Cmon Xerox, 3M, Kodak, Toshiba, IBM, Philips, E Ink, there's a world for you to win.

[davidspalding]

That said, I'd like to see someone give a good crack at it, too. The challenges aren't easy to surmount, but there are workarounds.

--janak

You mean like this:

http://www.libwise.com/knowbetter/

I haven't tried it....yet, so I can't tell you much about it.

Dave
Um ... hey! I have Mobipocket, and they have a short story by P. K. Dick for borrowing. I'll have to try this tomorrow between bathroom caulking repairs. ,:)

[Jacob]

There's only ONE reason that people don't read more e-books: the display quality! Nothing else matters!

How about the fact that it IS a screen.

Make the screen not have the same lack of eye strain as a piece of paper and I'll read more ebooks.

[Paragon]

I'm glad to hear you are repairing it in the bathroom, David. :-)

BTW, good thread.....haven't we done this before somewhere :)

Dave

[beq]

There's only ONE reason that people don't read more e-books: the display quality! Nothing else matters! It's people saying they don't want to be spending all day staring at a screen. Once there are displays on the market at print-quality resolution, the rest will follow. All the arguments about distribution, pricing, etc, pale beside the one big form factor fumble: get this right, industry! Cmon Xerox, 3M, Kodak, Toshiba, IBM, Philips, E Ink, there's a world for you to win.

All hail the 200ppi "paper resolution" screen (you know someone's gotta say it). Of course once we get there we'll be urging IBM researchers et. al to 300ppi ;)

I think ClearType stuff might become moot then, dunno...

[gdenerval]

Jason wrote

How about the fact that it IS a screen.

Make the screen not have the same lack of eye strain as a piece of paper and I'll read more ebooks.

That's exactly what the e-paper initiative is about: make something that has the legibility and eye-friendliness of paper. Printers and publishers don't like you to remember that in fact they struggled with this problem for centuries: why do you think they work in dots per inch? DPI resolution is still a big issue for fashion plate-level photography. Yeah, I'd love to see something that looks like paper but changes content like a screen: fingers X'd we'll have just that in a year or two. Then publishers are going to have to think a *lot* harder for reasons for us to continue to finance their remainder/discount/bargain ****ups.

[gdenerval]

Just had a form factor fawt based on this whole discussion: it occurs to me that the average PDA is a bit too small for an ideal e-book reader, but put two or three side by side and you've got something far closer to an A5 pad. So how would a foldout or rollout thin screen coming out from the side of the PDA do for that ideal paperback-like reading experience? The newest 3M iterations of e-paper come in saran-type rolls of plastic sheet anyway. Would also save people shelling out for an expensive dedicated e-reader.

[wrightca]

I don't read eBooks at all.

Too small of a display
DRM - I hate this altogether, not just in eBooks.
Limited selection
Cost
Non-flexibility

I'm a Computer Engineer in the military. Most of my reading is either technical or historical. I was very turned off to reading during high school English classes where I was forced to read the most boring books on Earth. My wife loves to read and can't understand why I have such a hatred of fiction. I'd much rather pick up a magazine or a newspaper, or poke around on the internet for interesting information.

[Abba Zabba]

I'm torn between the ebook and hard cover group. I love the feel of turning pages and smelling the ink and paper as I read. But on the other hand to me I read a book much quicker in ebook format. ebooks sort of trick my mind into thinking that it won't be that long until I finish my book unlike paper where I see my progression.

[ChristopherTD]

I like eBooks on my PocketPC, it is very convenient for commuting. On a crowded train I can read with one hand and hang on with the other! I can also take dozens of books if I am away for a week. So for me the Pocket PC is the ideal way to read an eBook, and certainly preferable to real books on the move.

The experience is not perfect. MS Reader is slow, and offers few customisations. I find it good for novels which are mainly read from the beginning to the end, but not so good for magazines or text books where you may want to flip about between pages.

I would not read books on my laptop - even though they look very good at 1600*1200 with ClearType, it is all too unwieldy. I also agree with the people unhappy with the DRM aspects. When I have finished a book I will often give it to a friend - I can't do that with my protected ebooks.

I would prefer to pay a paperback price, not a premium for eBooks given their uncertain lifetime!

[bjornkeizers]

Wow, this thread has exploded :D

I myself love Ebooks. I've read hundreds of books, stories etc. in .lit on my PPC's. I even make my own! The reason I prefer Ebooks is because I have a visual handicap [20% vision] Now, some of you may be thinking: How can he read that tiny screen? I don't know how, I just can. Ebooks are far more comfortable for me to read then those paperbacks.

The only books I still buy in actual paper format are reference books on airplanes: these are very large, contain lots of pictures and text, and they're not available in ebook format [AFAIK] I once tried to create my own reference book on helicopters in .lit, but I found out that the 240x320 resolution was rather difficult to work with.

I think that once we get say.. 640x480 screens at twice the size as our current ones [think PADD] then Ebooks will really take off.

[davidspalding]

Wow, this thread has exploded :D


I had no idea what I was stirring up. Something about that Reuters story ruffled my feathers. The ol' "Blame the consumer" contention.

Odd ... the poll results have disappeared ... several responses I posted last night are not in the thread ... hey, MOD, something going on that I don't know about? :?

[tdbunker]

:) Comment on previous post by Hooked. As for item #3, Palm ebooks are currently assigned to an individual by virtue of using your name and the credit card number used to order the book. Very few people will give a copy to anyone else if they need to also give them their credit card number. I much prefer this to the hassle of dealing with Microsoft activation.

Comment on previous post by DavidSpalding. The Palm reader includes a auto scroll feature which I like. You can also use inverse video which will cut down on the illumination that bothers others.

[ux4484]

Whenever I look at eBook titles that are available, I find a preponderence of what looks to be mediocre Sci Fi and mediocre erotica. I've got better things to read than mediocre books. I tend to read novels that have won or been nominated for awards, like the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Awards, the Booker Prize, or novels by authors who have won the Nobel Prize. I just don't find many books like that in eBook format.

eh? Not aware that almost the entire works of Joseph Conrad, A. Conan Doyle, H.G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Darwin, Shakespeare, Zane Grey, and Jane Austen are available legally for free from multiple sources?

sorry doog, you must be looking in the wrong places.

With pay ebooks, you may be close to on the money, but there is much great stuff available that is free.

[M@]

Why dont they sell eBooks on 20p floppy disks or 30p CDR's, much less bandwidth costs... could sell them next to the standard books?

[doogald]

Whenever I look at eBook titles that are available, I find a preponderence of what looks to be mediocre Sci Fi and mediocre erotica. I've got better things to read than mediocre books. I tend to read novels that have won or been nominated for awards, like the Pulitzer Prize, the National Book Awards, the Booker Prize, or novels by authors who have won the Nobel Prize. I just don't find many books like that in eBook format.

eh? Not aware that almost the entire works of Joseph Conrad, A. Conan Doyle, H.G. Wells, F. Scott Fitzgerald, Darwin, Shakespeare, Zane Grey, and Jane Austen are available legally for free from multiple sources?

I forgot to add 'contemporary' there, ux. I've read most of what I want to read from the list that you provided anyway.

[Paragon]

Below I have taken the top 15 sellers at Palm Digital Media (Peanut Press) at present, and compared them to Barnes and Nobles hardback/paperback. I used PDMs subscriber price, and B&N our price. B&N have a subscriber price but is fee based whereas PDMs is not. I have used the cheapest price B&N offered.

..................................PDM........B&N
1) Red Mars.................5.66.........7.50
2)Green Mars.......... ....5.66.........7.99
3)A Short History..........8.64........16.50
4) Blue Mars.................5.66........7.99
5) The Martians...........5.66........N/A
6) Star Trek H/coming...4.85........6.99
7)The Da Vinci Code.....10.75.......14.97
8.) Cryptonomicon.........9.31........5.59
9) Crisis in Islam..........10.04.......13.96
10) The Great Gatsby....4.04........4.95
11) Oryx and Crake......8.64........18.20
12) A cold Heart...........8.64.........16.17
13) The Sex Gates........4.85.........14.95
14) Presumed Innocent..4.00........7.99
15) Angels and Demons..5.66.......7.99

One book is more expensive as an eBook, and Peanut Press as of a few days ago had (I think) 30% off for it.

Dave

[Barak]

Regardless of what many say, I love the e-books, especially from Peanut Press.

After graduate school, I swore I wouldn't pick up a book and that went out the window after I read my first e-book. I am an addict! :bangin:

I agree that some of the prices for certain e-books are rediculous :2gunfire: I just don't buy them.

As a professional, I don't have enough hands to carry all my "stuff" which is what makes the digital format of books so nice - nothing to carry except my PDA which goes everywhere with me.

I carried books in the past and would misplace them or forget them often. :iamwithstupid: I'm in 4-5 different places per day, so it's nice to have the e-book go everywhere that I do and not worry about forgetting it.

I must read al least 1 ebook biweekly and know I wouldn't be reading this much if I had to read physical books.

It all comes down to what one prefers.

[ironguy]

I think one of the successful ways to market ebooks is to do what Baen has done. They put up 1 or 2 books of a series for free. If you like them, you can buy the rest of the series. If not, no loss to you. It also gives you the opportunity to taste different authors without cost. So basically you might get 2 free ebooks and buy the last two in a series. 4 books for the price of two. Brings the price down to a fairly reasonable level.

Also, Fictionwise often has sales 15-30% which can reduce the cost. They also put up books for free to sample.

[ux4484]

So.......Would it be fair to say that the ratio of PDA users who like/read ebooks to all PDA users is about the same as the ratio of folks who have PDA's to those with cell phones?

If you consider it in those terms, it's a pretty small market.

[bjornkeizers]

As a professional, I don't have enough hands to carry all my "stuff" which is what makes the digital format of books so nice - nothing to carry except my PDA which goes everywhere with me.


Same goes for me. If I *were* able to read books in paperback format, and provided I *could* find the titles I want, [I am dutch, yes, but I read purely in english, I haven't touched a dutch text or book for over 5 years], then I'd have to physically carry about half a dozen books and about a telephone book worth of printouts in stories and assorted documents.

Example: I love to read Tom Clancy novels. Now, I can't even *get* these here in The Netherlands in English at most bookstores.. and anyone who's ever seen one knows that to carry one around requires a huge bag and subscription at the local gym.. the one I've just finished was 1360 pages thick in paperback format..

I have a list of all the books I want to read, and over the years I've read hundreds of e-books; if I were to actually buy a copy of each one, I'd have to clear out my livingroom and just start stacking away box after box..

[Jimmy Dodd]

Example: I love to read Tom Clancy novels. Now, I can't even *get* these here in The Netherlands in English at most bookstores.. and anyone who's ever seen one knows that to carry one around requires a huge bag and subscription at the local gym.. the one I've just finished was 1360 pages thick in paperback format..


Is Clancy even available in ebook format anywhere (legally)? I'd buy a lot more ebooks if I could find what I wanted. I already buy a couple per month but those are mostly sci-fi/fantasy novels. I'd love to start reading the Clancy series again, but I've sworn off paperbacks so until I find him on ebook format I'm stuck (Executive Decision is next on my list, so I'm quite behind).

[pjtrader]

I am really offended that they want to charge me the same amount for an ebook that they do for a paperback or hard cover. This is outrageous. We know that the publisher's cost is much lower then for a prnted book. And the distributor's costs aren't high either.

Just out of curiousity, how do YOU know that the costs are cheaper or more expensive? :wink: So far I've yet to see the numbers on either side put on paper somewhere, so those kinds of statements are based on our opinions that it must be cheaper, because e-books don't have to be printed on paper, shipped out via truck and train, etc. I wonder however (and am thinking of doing the appropriate research for an article on this same subject) just what the overhead figures really are.

I'd also like to remind everyone that there are two categories of e-books: those that are published as print and e-format by major publishers and e-book only formats by e-publishing firms. I would hazard a guess that each category has clearly different costs in book production.

Boy, has all this made me curious.

Cheers,
Pam

[Kati Compton]

I'd also like to remind everyone that there are two categories of e-books: those that are published as print and e-format by major publishers and e-book only formats by e-publishing firms. I would hazard a guess that each category has clearly different costs in book production.Right, because some of the publishing tasks that have been mentioned (proofreading, etc) can be amortized over both the print and electronic version if they're making both, whereas it only applies to the eBook if it's an eBook-only publication.

But that just points out that the more copies you sell of a book, the more money is made in general, because after the startup costs are covered, you only have the per-unit costs, whether that's paper, ink, and shipping, or bandwidth.

[Paragon]

Right, because some of the publishing tasks that have been mentioned (proofreading, etc) can be amortized over both the print and electronic version if they're making both, whereas it only applies to the eBook if it's an eBook-only publication.

But that just points out that the more copies you sell of a book, the more money is made in general, because after the startup costs are covered, you only have the per-unit costs, whether that's paper, ink, and shipping, or bandwidth.

You make a very good point Kati42. Several months ago I did an interview with a couple of the guys from Peanut Press, and when I questioned them on price this was the kind of feeling I got back from them. With today's sales numbers ebooks are not a huge profit making operation, but as economies of scale come into play that will change and we should begin to see a difference in price......Personally I think we are beginning to see that now. Not in a large way, but I get the feeling that the average cost of ebooks is now falling. I could be wrong. Like I said it's more a feeling than it is any hard facts. I guess it's supported somewhat by the numbers I posted above.

Dave

[Kati Compton]

You make a very good point Kati42. Several months ago I did an interview with a couple of the guys from Peanut Press, and when I questioned them on price this was the kind of feeling I got back from them. With today's sales numbers ebooks are not a huge profit making operation, but as economies of scale come into play that will change and we should begin to see a difference in price......Personally I think we are beginning to see that now. Not in a large way, but I get the feeling that the average cost of ebooks is now falling. I could be wrong. Like I said it's more a feeling than it is any hard facts. I guess it's supported somewhat by the numbers I posted above.
But for titles that are being released on paper anyway, the main costs (I'm guessing, yes) are already committed to (sunk cost if I remember from Economics) for the paper version, which makes it very cheap (comparatively) to produce the eBook (electronic book). So while some eBooks (those released only as eBooks, or those of lower popularity) might have a high production cost, the more mainstream titles (produced in physical form already in mass numbers) should not. (Another parenthetical remark for good measure).

[Paragon]

Hmmm.... I think you lost me in one of the parenthetical remarks. :)

If I undrestand, you are saying that since the book is formatted digitally for print anyway it doesn't need to be redone for an ebook? If so, then no. Each book would need to be converted to the format of the ebook reader it is to be read on. Again from the guys at Peanut Press.....their worst bottleneck is in formatting. They don't format books as fast as they receive the rights to them.

Dave

[Kati Compton]

Hmmm.... I think you lost me in one of the parenthetical remarks. :)

If I undrestand, you are saying that since the book is formatted digitally for print anyway it doesn't need to be redone for an ebook? If so, then no. Each book would need to be converted to the format of the ebook reader it is to be read on. Again form the guys at Peanut Press.....their worst bottleneck is in formatting. They don't format books as fast as they receive the rights to them.
I'm *very* surprised there's not an auto-convert tool. Maybe once they get more popular... But I was more referring to the spell-checking & editing.

[Paragon]

Yeah, you would think so. As for the spell checking and the like already being done I'm willing to bet it's more a case of the publishing industry being a very thorough (correct spelling....anal) (yet another parenthetical remark :)) and not trusting someone else's work.

Dave

[beq]

I must say I haven't continued to fully use other excellent online distributors as much as I'd prefer (PDM, Baen, AlexLit, B&N, Amazon, etc) simply because I always get my plate full everytime just from Fictionwise sci-fi selections (Hugo and/or Nebula award-winners, all that good stuff). I wasn't an avid sci-fi reader before ebooks, so even some of the older selections were new to me...

Current task: Bear's Legacy sequel to Eon.

[Kati Compton]

Yeah, you would think so. As for the spell checking and the like already being done I'm willing to bet it's more a case of the publishing industry being a very thorough (correct spelling....anal) (yet another parenthetical remark :)) and not trusting someone else's work.

And spell chequers just aren't always write all the thyme.

[Kati Compton]

Current task: Bear's Legacy sequel to Eon.
I read Eternity and Eon. I think the titles of the books is a warning about how long they take to read.... ;)

[Paragon]

And spell chequers just aren't always write all the thyme.


:D

[Ken Mattern]

their worst bottleneck is in formatting.

Formatting text for eBooks takes a tremendous amount of time. For example when I publish a book of poetry I have to format the poems so they look like poems. Drop caps for the first letter of each chapter, indentation of paragraphs, position and style of chapter title, matching quotes, doing italics...

You really have to read the book in order to format it properly. Since may of 2000 I have been writing software to make that job easier. The program is now in its third iteration and it helps a lot, but it still takes time.

Last weekend I took a word document and converted it into text so that I could turn it back into a Microsoft Reader eBook. Converting tables and all of the rest fo the famncy formatting took me close to ten hours. And the "book" is only fourty pages long.

[Paragon]

Thanks for the info Ken. It is real case experiences like that where us laymen have to guess....and we usually guess wrong. :)

Dave

[Zanne]

Why would a publisher put out a hardback for 30-40 bucks, and undercut his own price by such a huge amount.

They already undercut their hardcover prices when they release paperbacks. How is it any different if they undercut both with a cheaper e-book? Here are some reasons why an e-book is an inferior product to a paperback, and should therefore cost less:

- An e-book has copy protection; a paper book does not.

- I can't lend an e-book to a friend.

- I can't resell an e-book, or donate it to a library, or to a charity.

- I'm limited in how many devices I keep my e-book on. What if I own a tablet PC, a PPC, and a desktop?

- An e-book's life expectancy is only as long as the lifetime of the software that can read it.

[Paragon]

Why would a publisher put out a hardback for 30-40 bucks, and undercut his own price by such a huge amount.

They already undercut their hardcover prices when they release paperbacks. How is it any different if they undercut both with a cheaper e-book? Here are some reasons why an e-book is an inferior product to a paperback, and should therefore cost less:

- An e-book has copy protection; a paper book does not.

- I can't lend an e-book to a friend.

- I can't resell an e-book, or donate it to a library, or to a charity.

- I'm limited in how many devices I keep my e-book on. What if I own a tablet PC, a PPC, and a desktop?

- An e-book's life expectancy is only as long as the lifetime of the software that can read it.

Well, let's see here.

First, I don't think that many publishers release an paperback and a hardcover at the same time. The hardcover is usually out for a period of time first. So they don't undersut themselves. Or at least not very often.

Next, paperbooks do have copyrights.

As for lending and donating you are right. This is an area of DRM that has to be addressed in a fair manner.

Many ebook readers can be used on multiple devices, and platforms. Palm Digital Media's reader can be read on desktop PCs, Pocket PCs, Palms, Laptops, Tablet PCs, and Macs, and as many of those as I own. MS Reader can be used on up to eight windows devices, and MS Reader has the most draconian of DRM of all the formats I believe.

How is my software book reader going to degrade or disappear over time. In fact they are all being upgraded all the time to better versions. If something happens and one of my devices should happen to reformat itself, I simply go download the latest version. We have paperbacks around our house that have fallen apart yers ago.

Dave

[pjtrader]

Amongst my author group, the general concensus is that people use the same criteria buying e-books that they use for paper books. In general, think about how you purchase your fiction:

1) Does cover art grab you first?
2) Do you stick with authors you know have a proven track record?
3) Are you hooked on particular genre?

When we go to Borders or Walden Books and stand in front of their shelves, most of us hard-core readers look for authors we know and love and cover art that appeals to us. Then we turn the back of the book over (or look inside the front cover) and read the blurb. If we like what we read, we might buy it.

Or, we might flip a few pages and see if the style of writing intrigues us. I know that I general dislike books written in the first person and will more than likely put them back on the shelf.

E-book shopping is harder than that, I think. Palm Media is my favorite e-book store simply because I know the majority of their titles fall into the category that this is the e-book version of a print book. I can read the blurb and study the tiny thumbnail of a cover. Sometimes I can even read an excerpt. In this manner, Palm Media has got the "bookstore" experience pretty closely mimicked. It is a lesson other e-book sellers might want to pay attention to. (Personally, I still think they all have a ways to go with building better virtual shelf browsing and those tiny thumbnails drive me crazy.)

But, back to the point of this post. Most of the authors I write with agree on this one principle: the quality of the writing in e-pubbed books are still an iffy proposition. (I'm not referring to the e-format of print books here, but of those ebooks pubbed by epublishers only.) While I believe there are many good books sitting on their shelves, I've been disappointed one too many times by a e-pubbed book's poor quality of writing. If I haven't read the title elsewhere, got a personal recommendation, or otherwise know what I'm getting, I don't buy e-pubbed books. I do not hesitate, however, buying my favorite print authors in e-format. Unfortunately, I think that's a prevailing philosophy out there...that the quality of e-books are lower than print. Because, of course, if it were that good, it would have been published in print, right?

That's harsh, especially since there is quite a debate in many genre groups about how to recognize e-pubbed authors. Are they "really" published or not?

Ain't we just a strange bunch?

Cheers,
Pam

[Jerôme Ammerlaan]

I love the fact ebooks are so easily acquired. Push of the mouse and you have a complete book at your disposal. Don't mind paying the same price as a paperback if I'm convinced the book will entertain me enough. But it nice that I can also attain ebooks that catch my eye and for which I normally would want to pay. At the moment I'm reading an autobiography by Theodore Roosevelt. courtesy of ESSPC. Never in my life would I have bought it. Might have rented it if I was inclined to drag myself to the librairy. So ebooks have opened up a whole new world as books go.

[Kati Compton]

E-book shopping is harder than that, I think. Palm Media is my favorite e-book store simply because I know the majority of their titles fall into the category that this is the e-book version of a print book. I can read the blurb and study the tiny thumbnail of a cover. Sometimes I can even read an excerpt. In this manner, Palm Media has got the "bookstore" experience pretty closely mimicked. It is a lesson other e-book sellers might want to pay attention to. (Personally, I still think they all have a ways to go with building better virtual shelf browsing and those tiny thumbnails drive me crazy.)
I agree, but on the other hand, I buy nearly all of my regular books online, where there's the same set of issues. This isn't just a problem for eBooks, though it probably is even more critical.

[ctmagnus]

The reason I prefer Ebooks is because I have a visual handicap [20% vision]... Ebooks are far more comfortable for me to read then those paperbacks.

I'm thinking the text-to-background contrast ratio.

[pjtrader]

I agree, but on the other hand, I buy nearly all of my regular books online, where there's the same set of issues. This isn't just a problem for eBooks, though it probably is even more critical.

Ah yes...I personally think that the online print booksellers have real problems. I absolutely abhor the way Barnes and Noble is hit or miss whether you'll even get the back cover blurb on a book. Great point!

Cheers,
Pam

[beq]

I read Eternity and Eon. I think the titles of the books is a warning about how long they take to read.... ;)

What's Eternity and where does it fall in the scheme of stories, do tell?

[Jonathan1]

I do by e-books...Just not Microsoft Draconian e-books. Waits its not called Draconian..what was it again? Oh ya reader. Freudian slip I guess. :P Seriously. Palm Reader is a fantastic product. IMHO heads above MS reader. My two biggest gripes about e-books are:
1. If I purchase a paperback I should get a e-book copy for free.
2. The price needs to drop at least 1 few bucks lower then their paperback counterparts. I do not believe that the price of an e-book is = to that of a paperback. Its just common sense. Somewhere out there a paperback started its life in electronic form. Turning that electronic form into an e-book, with the right tools, should be relatively easy.

Other then that I use to enjoy reading e-books until my Jornada developed a case of dust about 2 weeks ago now I can’t stand the screen. :x( Come on 1945!!! Get your sorry butt into the market! :D

[Paragon]

The price needs to drop at least 1 few bucks lower then their paperback counterparts. I do not believe that the price of an e-book is = to that of a paperback. Its just common sense.

14 of 15 are cheaper


Below I have taken the top 15 sellers at Palm Digital Media (Peanut Press) at present, and compared them to Barnes and Nobles hardback/paperback. I used PDMs subscriber price, and B&N our price. B&N have a subscriber price but is fee based whereas PDMs is not. I have used the cheapest price B&N offered.
..................................PDM........B&N
1) Red Mars.................5.66.........7.50
2)Green Mars.......... ....5.66.........7.99
3)A Short History..........8.64........16.50
4) Blue Mars.................5.66........7.99
5) The Martians...........5.66........N/A
6) Star Trek H/coming...4.85........6.99
7)The Da Vinci Code.....10.75.......14.97
8.) Cryptonomicon.........9.31........5.59
9) Crisis in Islam..........10.04.......13.96
10) The Great Gatsby....4.04........4.95
11) Oryx and Crake......8.64........18.20
12) A cold Heart...........8.64.........16.17
13) The Sex Gates........4.85.........14.95
14) Presumed Innocent..4.00........7.99
15) Angels and Demons..5.66.......7.99


Somewhere out there a paperback started its life in electronic form. Turning that electronic form into an e-book, with the right tools, should be relatively easy.

Not according to Ken


Formatting text for eBooks takes a tremendous amount of time. For example when I publish a book of poetry I have to format the poems so they look like poems. Drop caps for the first letter of each chapter, indentation of paragraphs, position and style of chapter title, matching quotes, doing italics...
You really have to read the book in order to format it properly. Since may of 2000 I have been writing software to make that job easier. The program is now in its third iteration and it helps a lot, but it still takes time.
Last weekend I took a word document and converted it into text so that I could turn it back into a Microsoft Reader eBook. Converting tables and all of the rest fo the famncy formatting took me close to ten hours. And the "book" is only fourty pages long.

[Ipaqman]

I love ebooks! I work uptown and catch the bus to work each morning. Having a virtual library in my PPC is most useful. After all, I read the majority of my news online so why not read my books in digital format.
I would read a lot more ebooks if the cost were less (for all of the very reason everyone has already mentioned)

However the point that I must admit, if you are at work and go to the bathroom with a book under your arm you might atract attention to yourself. With an ebook, your bathroom reading goes unnoticed :wink:

[michie]

I love ebooks! I read at least 2 books a week. What would make me buy more? Larger selection and lower prices.

On lower prices, Fictionwise has a sale now and I bought a bunch. Usually I buy from PDM because their regular (newsletter subscriber) prices are lower. However, even PDM prices are higher than paperback prices at the local bookstore. Interestingly, even with shipping from US to Asia, books in my country are cheaper than cover price by around 10-20%, and the local bookstore chain has sales of additional 20% off every couple of months.

Things I love about ebooks:

1) That they don't take up any space. I have hundreds of books and they get pretty dusty over time.

2) Instant availability. New books aren't released here at the same time as in the US but ebooks often are. Many books never even make it here.

3) Reading in the dark. I can read anywhere I want to, even in places that don't have sufficient light.

4) Its potential. Ebook selection can only grow. And once a title does become available, it will never go out of print.

What I don't like: I bought two older titles recently, one of which I actually have in paperback. Both had numerous typos and it was obvious they were OCRed from a hard copy. This was very disappointing as they were from Simonsays.com and Perfectbound and I expected their ebooks to receive the same careful editing as their paper books. I might as well have downloaded them from Kazaa or scanned my own copy.

[dh]

However the point that I must admit, if you are at work and go to the bathroom with a book under your arm you might atract attention to yourself. With an ebook, your bathroom reading goes unnoticed :wink:

Yep, ebooks are perfect for bed and bathroom reading. :D

[davidspalding]

Comment on previous post by DavidSpalding. The Palm reader includes a auto scroll feature which I like. You can also use inverse video which will cut down on the illumination that bothers others.

Mobipocket has those and more. I hear uBook does most of what Mobipocket does. Unfortunately, none of the readers expands your screen like the Newspads in 2001: a space odyssey, or those mylar computers in Red Planet.

[davidspalding]

their worst bottleneck is in formatting.

Formatting text for eBooks takes a tremendous amount of time. For example when I publish a book of poetry I have to format the poems so they look like poems. Drop caps for the first letter of each chapter, indentation of paragraphs, position and style of chapter title, matching quotes, doing italics...

You really have to read the book in order to format it properly. Since may of 2000 I have been writing software to make that job easier. The program is now in its third iteration and it helps a lot, but it still takes time.

Last weekend I took a word document and converted it into text so that I could turn it back into a Microsoft Reader eBook. Converting tables and all of the rest fo the famncy formatting took me close to ten hours. And the "book" is only fourty pages long.

Just as an aside, I have to reveal that the coding of the Reader version of Cryptonomicon had several serious errors. Converting it to Mobipocket for personal use, I found that most of the PNG images were mis-named as .JPG files. So the main file's code was incorrect. I was really disappointed.

I still hoot when I crack a Reader file and see all the various cover images for each device it might be read on. The one, single cover image than an OBEPS title needs seems sufficient to me. &lt;:P

[davidspalding]

Somewhere out there a paperback started its life in electronic form. Turning that electronic form into an e-book, with the right tools, should be relatively easy.

Not according to Ken


Formatting text for eBooks takes a tremendous amount of time. For example when I publish a book of poetry I have to format the poems so they look like poems. Drop caps for the first letter of each chapter, indentation of paragraphs, position and style of chapter title, matching quotes, doing italics...
You really have to read the book in order to format it properly. Since may of 2000 I have been writing software to make that job easier. The program is now in its third iteration and it helps a lot, but it still takes time.
Last weekend I took a word document and converted it into text so that I could turn it back into a Microsoft Reader eBook. Converting tables and all of the rest fo the famncy formatting took me close to ten hours. And the "book" is only fourty pages long.

It really depends on the source. Ken does a really superior job of formatting from ASCII etexts (those of his I've seen, that is), and the PG etexts I've converted needed lots of formatting.

I doubt that the publishers of the Lost and Cryptonomicon ebooks I bought had to format them from ASCII. The source files sure look just like the print versions, in many ways. ;) I'm guessing that most of the formatting was already done; coding to provide links and divs and other XHTML stuff probably fell to a single HTML or OEBPS wiz who expended some hours of preparation. (Actually, I think both were prepared by a third party ebook firm ... Perfectbound.)

[Mona13]

I still buy a lot of e-books. I bought an AquaPak and have been reading in the swimming pool.

Love it! I don't read paperbacks at all anymore.

[Kaber]

This post (http://slashdot.org/articles/03/06/05/0244203.shtml?tid=188) on /. goes into the debate about a universal eBook format and links to some very good articles.

I figured those in this thread would be interested.

[Paragon]

Interesting article Kaber. Thanks for the link.

Personally I don't see there being much of a problem with multi ebook reader formats. In all the posts in this thread I don't think the topic has even been mentioned. If it has it didn't make much noise. If you look at all the different readers they each have their own unique look, feel, and set of functions...kinda like why some people buy a Ford to drive, while others buy a Chevy to drive.

The biggest snag I see is in having one draconian method of DRM instead of having a choice that I think is fair to people on both sides of the fence. Believe me, if everyone in the ebook industry were to accept this universal reader the big guns would win on the method of DRM, and we the consumer would be on the loosing end....and stuck with NO choice. Can you see Microsoft saying yes to Palm Digatal Media's DRM method?

It seems to me after reading this thread, and many others like it here, and at Passion there are two issues holding people back from buying more ebooks....price! (although I think this is more of a perception than a reality)....and secondly, for a number of reasons a preference for bound books.

I doubt a universal reader will increase ebook sales.

Dave

[disconnected]

Paragon,

Just to add a third reason......THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM! ARE ANY PUBLISHERS LISTENING??

Sorry for shouting :) I'm just really impatient. I check PeanutPress and Fictionwise just about every day, and Powells and a few others at least twice a week. In a given week, I can probably find at least a half a dozen new hardcovers or paperbacks I want, but I'm lucky if even one of them is available as an ebook. I so much want to encourage publication of ebooks that I've been known to buy an ebook even if I already have the paperback just to show the publisher that there is some interest.

[PPCRules]

A lot of debate about price.

A sales occurs when a buyer is willing to pay the price charged. eBooks simply have a lower perceived value than paper books to most people. How much lower? That varies for each person. At a certain price, the smell of paper and ink no longer matters. At a certain price, not being able to loan the book doesn't matter. At a certain price, a small PDA screen doesn't matter (well, for primarily text-based stuff at least).

As the price goes down, market penetration increases. How big a market do authors/publishers/distributers want? They choose it by their prices. And in early-adoptor stage, that price needs to be lower than it would be if eBooks were mainstream.

[davidspalding]

Actually I'm making my ebooks with Mobipocket Publisher, which is based on teh OEBPS. I have copies of the OEBPS 1.1, and related XHTML definition papers, on my PDA ... juuuuust need a little more free time to read all of them. ,:) But if you hablan XML, the OEBPS .OPF file is simple to understand.

The way that I read purchased secure Microsoft Reader books on my CAsio is by decompiling the books to the OEB source files, tweaking them as needed, and republishing them as Mobipocket .PRCs. Yeah, I dislike Reader 1.0 that much. Generally works well, but it can be tricky -- the dunsel who compiled CRYPTONOMICON had a few dozen code errors for the images. &lt;sigh> I only read in Reader when there's no possible alternative. :P

I suspect that the truly accomplished ebook publishers are working in an OEB standard form, then compiling for each Reader format. That's the gist of the standard -- coding the source files so they can be compiled to be read in any Reader, on any platform. Alas, Microsoft's Word RMR doesn't play well with others.

(Mind wandering ... keyboard follows ... screen fades....)

[Paragon]

Paragon,

Just to add a third reason......THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM! ARE ANY PUBLISHERS LISTENING??

You are right!

Dave

[Crystal Eitle]

Paragon,

Just to add a third reason......THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM! ARE ANY PUBLISHERS LISTENING??

Sorry for shouting :) I'm just really impatient. I check PeanutPress and Fictionwise just about every day, and Powells and a few others at least twice a week. In a given week, I can probably find at least a half a dozen new hardcovers or paperbacks I want, but I'm lucky if even one of them is available as an ebook. I so much want to encourage publication of ebooks that I've been known to buy an ebook even if I already have the paperback just to show the publisher that there is some interest.

I second that!!!! I love new books, especially current events and science and popular history (e.g. "Guns Germs and Steel", which I haven't actually read yet, though I want to. Guess what, it's not in ebook form).

GIVE US MORE SELECTION!!!!!! :evil:

[Crystal Eitle]

A lot of debate about price.

A sales occurs when a buyer is willing to pay the price charged. eBooks simply have a lower perceived value than paper books to most people. How much lower? That varies for each person. At a certain price, the smell of paper and ink no longer matters. At a certain price, not being able to loan the book doesn't matter. At a certain price, a small PDA screen doesn't matter (well, for primarily text-based stuff at least).

As the price goes down, market penetration increases. How big a market do authors/publishers/distributers want? They choose it by their prices. And in early-adoptor stage, that price needs to be lower than it would be if eBooks were mainstream.
Well put.

[Paragon]

Again, as to price. I think some ebook sellers may have a hard time justifying lowering prices.

If interested read this interview with Peter, and Lee of Palm Digital Media at that time they were at least doubling their sales, and were having trouble keeping up with getting new books formatted an available for sale. Some may say it would be a mistake to lower your price with conditions such as those......I don't know as I agree but I can understand the position.

http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=75499

Dave

[bjornkeizers]

Is Clancy even available in ebook format anywhere (legally)?


I must admit I don't know. I get my books from .. uhm.. let's say I know a certain IRC channel [info available on request] where you can find all the raw text files you'll ever need.

I usually download two, three versions of the book I want. I then proofread the first chapter or so for any scanning mistakes; I pick the one with the least mistakes and fix the repeating ones. I fire up Readerworks and let it work its magic.. I can have a book ready in under five minutes. [these are for personal use] I can even do chapters, covers, etc, but I only do that when I'm planning to distribute a book or by special request.

By making my own books, I know the quality is good, and at a price I can afford. I'd rather invest $400 once in a PPC then spend the same amount *a month* buying the books I want.

[davidspalding]

Again, as to price. I think some ebook sellers may have a hard time justifying lowering prices.

If interested read this interview with Peter, and Lee of Palm Digital Media at that time they were at least doubling their sales, and were having trouble keeping up with getting new books formatted an available for sale. Some may say it would be a mistake to lower your price with conditions such as those......I don't know as I agree but I can understand the position.

http://www.pocketpcpassion.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=75499

Dave

I keep seeing this interview referred to, and while I respect their statements and situation, I don't consider Peter and Lee's explanations of their P&L as gospel for the entire market. For instance, I'm wondering why major publishers are releasing a few ebooks on Amazon and SimonSays and BN.com ... and charging so dang much. Amazon has got the infrastructure. The publishers must have advantageous partner deals with the ebook conversion outfits. So ... why the high price? (Compared with PDM and Fictionwise and Baen, who seem to be keeping afloat with more reasonable pricing models.)

I can grok that if the major publishers outsource their ebook conversion to a third party, or place the burden on teh distribution partner ("Sure, man, give us heavy license fees, but you have to make the ebook thing, okay?"), it's expensive. But once these idiots wake up and start doing prep for ebooks as a routine procedure, the cost will come down. If they're losing money on ebooks, there's the needed pressure to drive costs down. If they don't -- by charging full hardcover prices for a digital file -- there's no inspiration to do so.

And ... that's what irks me. The major publishers are, I suspect, sticking with an expensive, inefficient production process for making a few, precious ebooks of their new releases, charging a lot for them ... and blaming the consumer market for their failure to achieve vertical growth. Duh. It's like Coca-Cola blaming consumers for the failure of New Coke.
____________

BTW, my apologies to anyone who wondered, "Poll? What poll?" There's a bug with phpBB that if the original poster (me) edits the original post (which I did), the poll is vaporized (and it was :_( ). Mea culpa.

[ctmagnus]

Can't remember if I already posted on this one or not, but...

I still use a 3670, which has no external storage option short of using an expansion pack. If I had a newer model (ideally the 5550), I'd be all over these things due to the fact that I wouldn't be taking up precious internal memory with the books. Not to mention the fact that the internal memory of the 5550 is less precious (in a way) than earlier iPaqs due to its abundance.

[doogald]

I keep seeing this interview referred to, and while I respect their statements and situation, I don't consider Peter and Lee's explanations of their P&L as gospel for the entire market. For instance, I'm wondering why major publishers are releasing a few ebooks on Amazon and SimonSays and BN.com ... and charging so dang much. Amazon has got the infrastructure. The publishers must have advantageous partner deals with the ebook conversion outfits. So ... why the high price? (Compared with PDM and Fictionwise and Baen, who seem to be keeping afloat with more reasonable pricing models.)

I can grok that if the major publishers outsource their ebook conversion to a third party, or place the burden on teh distribution partner ("Sure, man, give us heavy license fees, but you have to make the ebook thing, okay?"), it's expensive. But once these idiots wake up and start doing prep for ebooks as a routine procedure, the cost will come down. If they're losing money on ebooks, there's the needed pressure to drive costs down. If they don't -- by charging full hardcover prices for a digital file -- there's no inspiration to do so.

And ... that's what irks me. The major publishers are, I suspect, sticking with an expensive, inefficient production process for making a few, precious ebooks of their new releases, charging a lot for them ... and blaming the consumer market for their failure to achieve vertical growth. Duh. It's like Coca-Cola blaming consumers for the failure of New Coke.

I am pretty convinced that publishers DON'T want e-books to succeed. Hence the high price; hence the bad selection.

[ChristopherTD]

Paragon,

Just to add a third reason......THERE AREN'T ENOUGH OF THEM! ARE ANY PUBLISHERS LISTENING??



I echo this - price is not as much of an issue as choice. I get particularly annoyed when books 2 and 3 of a series are available as ebooks, but book one isn't!

More choice! More books! (please)