Closet PALM Enthusiast

[xoiph]

I was blown away the first time I ever saw the fancy Clie with the camera and swivel screen and awesome resolution (I wish Sony made PPCs...) I even gave serious thought to making the switch! Since then I've been keeping up with the latest PALM developments and sometimes even admiring PALM's cheesy but simple OS. There's no way I could give up my PPC for good, but I do feel like switching every once in a while. Anyone else feel this way? Or am I the only one?

[nosmohtac]

I voted hell no, but I'm right with you.
I have been watching closely and admiring what sony and palm are doing.
when I first saw the zire, I thought "what a joke" but what a vast difference they made with the zire71.

I also look at the sony with admiration and wish they would get with it and make a pocket pc. With sony's engineering and design they could clean house on both sides of the pda market.

On the other hand, if you look at the price, memory available and battery life, why on earth would I buy a clie when you can get a pocket pc for much less.

[Duncan]

I was blown away the first time I ever saw the fancy Clie with the camera and swivel screen and awesome resolution (I wish Sony made PPCs...) I even gave serious thought to making the switch!

I also look at the sony with admiration and wish they would get with it and make a pocket pc. With sony's engineering and design they could clean house on both sides of the pda market.

As I know one of the poor unfortunates who bought a Clie NX70 I would have to be in the 'hell no' camp! Sony get a lot of kudos for their supposed design innovation - but real life soon shows how wrong that is!

1) Battery life - stinks! All the fancy twisting features and built-in camera are pretty damn useless when your PDA can't even get through a single day!

2) Nice screen - shame about the poor swivel design. The owner of this particular Clie actually went through three! The first one the 'swivel' bit broke within a fortnight. On returning it to Dixons they didn't bat an eyelid - they are quite used to replacing them for this problem! The second one hit the floor at an unpleasant angle - what no-one seems to mention is that the twist design is very awkward to manipulate!

3) The UI on the Clie - dear heavens is it bad! God knows why they chose to mess around with the Palm UI...

4) 16 Meg memory and Memory Sticks - he had so much trouble working around the memory limitations - and a Memory Stick is not cheap...

5) Resolution - sounds good. In practice it isn't. The screen is actually a lot harder to use for long periods than a PPC screen. Can't really explain why...

6) Camera - not very usable unless conditions are just right!

He gave up in the end and went for a Tungsten T. You'd think that would be the end of his problems - but without going into details he's been asking a lot of questions about my PPC...

So - all-in-all - I'm not about to jump ship anytime soon - or even contemplate it. Even when looking at the newer Palms, for all the catching up they've done, the new PPCs (coming soon) are still going to top them (dual wireless, 128MB RAM, etc.).

[Pony99CA]

5) Resolution - sounds good. In practice it isn't. The screen is actually a lot harder to use for long periods than a PPC screen. Can't really explain why...
The explanation could be quite simple -- things got smaller. On a Windows PC, if you change your resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768, all of the icons get smaller. A 32x32 pixel icon at 640x480 will be much smaller when you have to fit more pixels on the same screen size.

If they increase the pixel count in the icons to compensate for that, they can design more detailed icons, but you won't have any more screen real estate. If they let software blow up the icons instead of designing new ones for increased size, they'll actually look worse (blockier).

The same observations can be applied to fonts to some degree, especially bitmapped fonts. If the Palm OS fonts were designed for a 160x160 pixel screen, and Sony just lets software increase the size for a 320x320 pixel screen, those fonts will look jaggier.

Maybe there's a happy medium, but I haven't really used a Palm device, so this is all just speculation anyway. :-)

Steve

[CTSLICK]

I answered yes...I'm only loyal to a device or OS as long as its the one the best meets my needs. If a Palm OS device came out tomorrow that meets my needs better then I would absolutely look seriously at it.

I left Palm behind around 3.5 yrs ago but I've been watching..it hasn't happened yet, but there have been a couple that came close. Heck, I looked hard at Linux when it hit the PDA market (Sharp SL-5500). Love that competition to keep pushing the envelope.

[Scott R]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no." If you don't like what the current Palm OS and the Palm OS devices have to offer that's one thing, but "hell no" implies to me that you would never consider switching no matter what came out in the future (including whatever changes are made in OS6). I want whatever meets my needs today. I own both a Handspring Treo 300 and an iPaq 3630 but my iPaq has been relegated to the task of my portable Bible/Concordance (a noble task) while I carry my Treo with me always. If PPC 2003 fixes the things which really irk me and/or an interesting wireless PPC comes out, I could see myself switching to the PPC exclusively again (the iPaq 1945 could be it). I'm even anxious to check out the upcoming color Danger hiptop/sidekick.

Scott

[Scott R]

The explanation could be quite simple -- things got smaller. On a Windows PC, if you change your resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768, all of the icons get smaller. A 32x32 pixel icon at 640x480 will be much smaller when you have to fit more pixels on the same screen size.That isn't quite how it works with the high-res screens for the Palm OS. Most applications default to a sort of pixel-doubled format where the fonts are replaced with smoother versions. Assuming the physical screen size is the same, the height of the font would be the same on the 320x320 device but would be smoother and easier to read. On the flip-side, you wouldn't actually get any more data on screen than the 160x160 screen. Applications can (and many do) access the full 320x320 resolution and use smaller fonts to display four times as much data. Most apps which offer this mode offer it as an option (i.e. - you can have the smoother larger fonts or the smaller fonts showing more data).

Scott

[Jason Dunn]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no."

Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.

[drop]

Father-in-law-to-be's Clie has 4 hours of battery life in it. He uses address book, calendar, and notes.

My answer: "Hell No". I stop chasing the rainbow long ago. I am certain the moment I switch, PPC would have something so cool out that I would kick myself. I used to own a Palm OS device. I am sure Palm has its own merits. I like PPC platform much better.

Hopefully when users start developing spinal injury from carry the Tablet PC around :devilboy: , Microsoft would put more R&D into speedy PPC improvements.

[Scott R]

Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.
Perhaps that explains it. I tend to follow the players I like from team to team rather than stay loyal to a particular team. I first got really into football as a result of the Chicago Bears (was it the '84 season?). I ended up following some of those players around (especially Jim Harbaugh as I also tended to root for the underdog). Now that all of those players are no longer playing, I've lost some of my interest in football the last two years. I need to find some new players to like.

Scott

[Unreal32]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no."

Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.

Yeah, but your sports team generally doesn't affect how you work, how much you get done, your overall effectiveness, etc. It might affect you in terms of emotions and entertainment value, but it doesn't impact your job or job effectiveness like a PDA might.

I'd very possibly make the switch if they brought out a Palm Tungsten C+ with stereo headphones and true multitasking. I use an iPaq now with the SnapNType keyboard, and I have to say, I love the idea of a PPC with a keyboard like a Blackberry built in.

[mattp]

Well, in that case, what is the score. Say:

PPC 21
Palm 14

Or, 3 goals to 2 for you Canadians.

[Janak Parekh]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no."
Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.
I don't know if the analogy works in technology, though. There are a lot of users here that switched from Palm. If we envisioned this as a brand-loyalty to the sports level (witness Chicago Cubs fans, who have been waiting since 1906), we'd have less than half the current number of Pocket PC users. Heck, everyone would still be using the old-school Sharp or Casio organizers.

I have no intention of switching to any current Palm product, but if OS 7, for example, gives me what I fundamentally need (file systems, multitasking, audio API, etc.) and is an order-of-magnitude superior than a Pocket PC, with no parity in sight, would it not be in my interest to switch? I'd be willing to wait 6-18 months for the Pocket PC to catch up, but not much longer than that.

Mind you, I don't think this is going to happen, but I'm a big believer in choosing the solution that works best for you. Ergo, I fall in the "no" category.

--janak

[Hyperluminal]

I said yes. While I'd really like to stay with the PPC platform, only partly because of all of the money (and time) I've invested in it, I wouldn't never switch.
I don't see myself switching in the near future, but if Palm did come out with OS 6 that brought it on par with PPC, and Palm's hardware was much more advanced than PPC, I would probably switch, especially if PPC didn't seem like it would improve soon.
It's like with sports, like Jason said. You may be loyal to a team for a long time, even through bad seasons, but if they keep losing miserably, year after year, you'll probably eventually become a fan of a different team. I am a "fan" of the Pocket PC platform, and certainly have no plans to switch (and it would take a lot to get me to switch). Still, I can't say that I'd never give up the platform (although the Newton people have been doing that for 5 years now and seem happy enough :) ).

[baralong]

I said "no" but that's just for the time being. I live in a windows world, I develop windows software and as some one said windows stuff plays best with windows stuff (pocket word excepted :evil:)

If I leave PPC I'm more likely to go linux, possibly on my existing hardware.

[nosmohtac]

If I leave PPC I'm more likely to go linux, possibly on my existing hardware.


Me too.

I am not blindly loyal to pocket pc or MS. I answered h&!! no, but it's not that palm may not someday exceed pocket pc, I think (for me) it's more because the pocket pc platform is so much closer to a laptop or tablet pc.

It would have to be a phenominal jump on palm's part, wich I don't see happening, to get me to switch to a totally different platform and start all over on buying accessories and software.

Linux does look more appealing though. Has anyone here tried loading linux on their pocket pc? If so, what are your thoughts?
What kind of software is there?

[baralong]

Linux does look more appealing though. Has anyone here tried loading linux on their pocket pc? If so, what are your thoughts?
What kind of software is there?

I haven't tried it yet because no-one has it working on my PPC (Toshiba e740) but there is hope here (http://www.mnementh.co.uk/e7xx/) but for general info, including the distributions currently running try handhelds.org heaps of stuff for iPaqs.

Quite a few screen shots are available (look at the quicklinks in the top right hand corner, GPE and OPIE)

[TopDog]

I answered Yes, but don't see a change in any near future...

I'd very possibly make the switch if they brought out a Palm Tungsten C+ with stereo headphones and true multitasking.
I have to agree. The Tungsten C looks really cool, but why only mono-sound??? I'll never by a device meant to play sound, but only in mono...

And Palm needs to get on the multitaskin-wagon, if I would ever consider it!

I've also spendt to much $ on great PPC-software to change just because the Tungsten C looks really cool, I need to be sure it's a hell of a lot better... but I don't think they ever will ;-)

[rhinoman]

re:[Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.]
I agree about being loyal to your favorite team. However, I also believe in giving credit where credit is due. If the other team makes a good play I acknowledge it. I have an ipaq 3955 and a sony clie tg50. Both pdas are excellent. The ipaq is superior for music and videos; the clie is superior for calendar, screen resolution, and alarm volume. My ipaq requires a reset many times more than my clie. The ipaq can accommodate much more storage, especially with a sleeve. My personal feelings are that it is easier on my eyes and more enjoyable to read ebooks on my clie because of the higher resolution.
I belong to a palm os forum where I defend the ppc. My point is that they are not mutually exclusive. One can find utility and pleasing recreation from both platforms; it doesn't have to be either one or the other.

rhinoman :)

[Paul P]

While I will never, ever switch to Palm, I am always interested in what their next offerring will be. Palm is the underdog, despite their share, and I like seeing them evolve. They are still kicking, and most likely will be, so as long as they are moving closer and closer to what Pocket PC has to offer.

[TawnerX]

How can anybody even consider palm, It can even do quake.. gawd..
Is it even a realc omputer, or just an organizer. Even the smartphones do quake now.

I got the feeling I might move to smartphones first before Palm ever to catch up.

[Pony99CA]

I belong to a palm os forum where I defend the ppc. My point is that they are not mutually exclusive. One can find utility and pleasing recreation from both platforms; it doesn't have to be either one or the other.
I agree. I'm an agnostic; if something works for someone, that's good enough. I chose Windows CE because I worked with Windows and the two were similar. I also chose it because my first PDA had a keyboard, which meant that I didn't have to learn a new alphabet.

However, the point of the story, I believe, is that Palm shouldn't need to resort to misleading comparisons. Yes, I understand that's called "marketing", but that doesn't make it right. :-)

Steve

[Pony99CA]

How can anybody even consider palm, It can even do quake.. gawd..
Is it even a realc omputer, or just an organizer. Even the smartphones do quake now.
I know this may come as a shock, but not everyone cares to play Quake. Some people just want an organizer. Some people may want the software that Palm does have.

Saying the Palm can't play Quake is no better than Palm saying the Pocket PC can't be stored in a desk for more than four days. Many people just don't care.

Steve

[dh]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no."

Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.

Have to disagree with you on this one Jason. Palm and MS are not sports teams. They are companies that make things that do things we need.

We all need MS in a large part of our computing life and, dispite all the bitching we do, they make some great products.

I use Windows, like everyone else, and I enjoy my Pocket PC. Having said that, if Palm or Symbian or Linux came out with a better product tomorrow, I would have it by the afternoon. (If I could afford it, or my company bought it of course).

I can understand your feelings, you are obviously close to MS and you make your living from their products. I have no problem with that. I've also noticed that you are not shy pointing out the shortcomings with MS products when they arise which is cool. The job of the PPC team at MS is to keep the product at a level that people like me want to stay with it.

Over the years I had just about every handheld device, from the terrible WinCE 1.0 through Casio, Psion, Rex (I still think this was a neat idea), Palm and now PPC. Without exception, I use my Axim every day. I could not say this about anyother handheld I've had.

None of the Palm OS5 devices make me want to go back to Palm, I don't believe they have the features to match PPC2002 let alone the forthcoming 2003.

I use my Axim as a laptop replacement and entertainment center. I believe it's the device that does this job best right now. For me to change, the competition has to prove otherwise.

Oh, I never have played Quake and probably never will!

[Palmguy]

I don't understand why anyone would answer "hell no."

Have you ever been a sports team fan Scott? If you haven't, you'll never understand. If you have, then you shouldn't need to ask that question. :wink: Even if your favourite team is having a bad season, you want to stick with them no matter what.

Have to disagree with you on this one Jason. Palm and MS are not sports teams. They are companies that make things that do things we need.

We all need MS in a large part of our computing life and, dispite all the bitching we do, they make some great products.

I use Windows, like everyone else, and I enjoy my Pocket PC. Having said that, if Palm or Symbian or Linux came out with a better product tomorrow, I would have it by the afternoon. (If I could afford it, or my company bought it of course).

I can understand your feelings, you are obviously close to MS and you make your living from their products. I have no problem with that. I've also noticed that you are not shy pointing out the shortcomings with MS products when they arise which is cool. The job of the PPC team at MS is to keep the product at a level that people like me want to stay with it.


I'm gonna disagree with you here. While the whole sports team analogy maybe shouldn't be the way that it is, and people should strictly get what is best for them, it doesn't always work like that. This sports team analogy is often the mindset of many people on this site and on Palm sites. Jason was only pointing that fact out, that this is how some people feel.

[dbman]

5) Resolution - sounds good. In practice it isn't. The screen is actually a lot harder to use for long periods than a PPC screen. Can't really explain why...
The explanation could be quite simple -- things got smaller. On a Windows PC, if you change your resolution from 640x480 to 1024x768, all of the icons get smaller. A 32x32 pixel icon at 640x480 will be much smaller when you have to fit more pixels on the same screen size.

If they increase the pixel count in the icons to compensate for that, they can design more detailed icons, but you won't have any more screen real estate. If they let software blow up the icons instead of designing new ones for increased size, they'll actually look worse (blockier).

The same observations can be applied to fonts to some degree, especially bitmapped fonts. If the Palm OS fonts were designed for a 160x160 pixel screen, and Sony just lets software increase the size for a 320x320 pixel screen, those fonts will look jaggier.

Maybe there's a happy medium, but I haven't really used a Palm device, so this is all just speculation anyway. :-)

Steve

This is one of the reasons I returned my Tungsten and purchased an Axim. I simply got tired of trying to read the small screen. Apps that took advantage of the resolution created lines of text that were just too hard to read. It's like running 1024 x 768 on a 14" monitor. You can do it, but it is annoying.