The Quebec Debate...

[Weyoun6]

Well, this suit is coming from Quebec, which is not exactly a sane provence. :)

[Kevin Daly]

I agree with Jason's original take on this, but for most of the rest, let's keep it sane (everybody!), and leave the punitive mentality at the door. It's stupid to try to punish Dell for an honest mistake, but equally stupid to suggest that innocent customers in Quebec should be "punished" because of the greed and venality of others. Does anyone seriously think that would help Dell to have good customer relations there?
And lastly, enough of the culltural and linguistic chauvinism boys and girls...its particular cultural/linguistic mix is after all one of the things that makes Canada one of the more interesting parts of North America, IMNSHO ("NS" is for "Not So". I've never been one for Uriah Heepery).

Myself, I see this lawsuit as further evidence of the mentality encouraged by *certain* members of the legal profession who are happy to do the commercial equivalent of ambulance-chasing. 0X

[Jacob]

I agree with Jason's original take on this, but for most of the rest, let's keep it sane (everybody!), and leave the punitive mentality at the door. It's stupid to try to punish Dell for an honest mistake, but equally stupid to suggest that innocent customers in Quebec should be "punished" because of the greed and venality of others. Does anyone seriously think that would help Dell to have good customer relations there?
And lastly, enough of the culltural and linguistic chauvinism boys and girls...its particular cultural/linguistic mix is after all one of the things that makes Canada one of the more interesting parts of North America, IMNSHO ("NS" is for "Not So". I've never been one for Uriah Heepery).

Myself, I see this lawsuit as further evidence of the mentality encouraged by *certain* members of the legal profession who are happy to do the commercial equivalent of ambulance-chasing. 0X

Well said! :D

[rhmorrison]

Well said! :D
Ditto... :clap:

[lurch]

Despite my desire to tease Quebec...........

I won't! (whew) but I will say that this certainly is a great example of the overall cultural climate of the West these days.... I'm entitled to everything I say I am!!! :?

[ctmagnus]

Oh, those crazy Canadiens.

[szamot]

Quebec is a distinct society or so they try to calim to be. This would be a good opportunity to claim that distinct(ly) smart status and see the mistake for what it was. This to me is as idiotic as the welfare bum in Quebec who spent $850 on lottery tickets, did not win a single dime and is now trying to sue the lottery - come on people don't meke me point out the distinct(ly) obvious.

[Calculon]

I'm not surprised. You guys don't live here. This place is like an asylum run by the patients.

:|

[Jason Dunn]

And lastly, enough of the culltural and linguistic chauvinism boys and girls...its particular cultural/linguistic mix is after all one of the things that makes Canada one of the more interesting parts of North America, IMNSHO ("NS" is for "Not So". I've never been one for Uriah Heepery).

Ahem. :soapbox:

If by "interesting" you mean the existence of Quebec and our asinine laws that products coming into Canada need to have literature printed in both English and French, thus keeping many vendors and products out of Canada and keeping us light years behind the US in terms of product availability and pricing...then sure, yeah, they're "interesting". :evil: The people in Quebec aren't the problem - it's the politicians and the laws made decades ago.

I'm all for the beauty of multiculturalism - food, language, art, everything. Quebec had a rich history and is a vital part of Canada - when their politicians aren't trying to break our country apart that is. But what I'm NOT for is archaic laws that simply don't make any sense any more. Our culture as a country has changed dramatically in the past 20 years, and like it not, English is the official language of Canada. The rise of the Internet guaranteed that much at least, along with the pop culture influx of the US into Canada. The self-destructive protectionist laws that try to insulate Quebec continue to strangle Canada - they're only hurting us as a country. Every time the seperatist politicians start making noise about breaking away from Canada, our dollar plummets and foreign investments evaporate like mist.

I laugh every time I'm on a Canadian flight and the flight attendants go through their information routine in French - there's a statistically higher chance of more people on any given plane understanding it if it was in Mandarin or Korean. But no, the law says it has to be done, and so it is.

The US has it figured out: they have announcements in languages that make sense for that location. I've heard Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean, and many others. They do what makes sense for making the process for people easier, not because the law tells them to (unless I'm mistaken on that).

Bottom line for me is that the law in this regard is always out of step with reality - it's too slow, too arcane, and usually hinders more than it helps.

Ok, soapbox over. The people of Quebec are my fellow Canadians, and I don't want them to go anywhere, but Quebec hurts Canada too often for my liking... :|

[Antoine]

Yes, it is a shame that some people file a class-action suit for such an insignificant thing.

However, I am far more preoccupied at this point by some comments I have read in this thread, some of which are gratuitiously hostile to Quebecers. Please, in such "ethnically" tense times, we must all be very careful not to use some kind of idiotic, isolated event as a means of bashing a whole bunch of people.

Not only does it solve nothing, but it sure leaves a bad impression to anyone who feels is the object of such bashing.

Jason: "[...] And we wonder why some US vendors don't come up to Canada."

Let's face it, moronic class-action suits happen *everywhere*. It's not just a "Quebec" thing... Plus, it has absolutely nothing to do with some US vendors not coming up to Canada. I believe there are only 30 million people or so in Canada. To me, it tells a lot more about us canadians not always being a primary target to some vendors.

Ed: "Dell should suspend Axim sales in Quebec for one month as punishment to the goobers bringing this lawsuit."

I realize this is a joke, so I don't take it too seriously. However, I hope you realize that the "goobers" bringing this lawsuit might well be Quebecers, but they surely don't represent enough Quebecers to justify "punishing" all of us. How many people are involved in this lawsuit? 1? 10? 50? Maybe. But I doubt there are many more. Quebecers might not account for a big part of North America, but still, there are at least 7 million of us. If Dell chose to go after this market (and they didn't have to), then it must be because they found it had a potential for business. I seriously doubt this lawsuit will change anything about that. And I seriously doubt as much as you that the class-action suit is being filed on valid ground.

Weyoun6: "Well, this suit is coming from Quebec, which is not exactly a sane provence. :-)"

Glad you ended your statement with a smiley. Otherwise, I wouldn't have known what to make of it! I guess it's a weird coincidence that I have had the opportunity to live in your hometown (Seattle) for some time when I was a kid. I absolutely loved the people there and I always praised their openness, and I still do. I even had the chance to go back last summer and take a walk in Freeway Park, one of the most fascinating and inspiring piece of urban architecture I've seen in my whole life. Please, be careful when making generalizing statements, even if joking.

szamot: "Quebec is a distinct society or so they try to calim to be. This would be a good opportunity to claim that distinct(ly) smart status and see the mistake for what it was. This to me is as idiotic as the welfare bum in Quebec who spent $850 on lottery tickets, did not win a single dime and is now trying to sue the lottery - come on people don't meke me point out the distinct(ly) obvious."

You are basically tying two relatively insignificant news items (the Dell class-action suit and the lottery thing) to the the whole distinct society debate. Worse, the overall tone of your comment is somewhat despising to the people of Quebec. Please re-read it with that in mind and you'll see what I mean...

It hurts me to read all these posts because I feel it is a step backward in bringing all of us closer to truly becoming world-class citizens instead of just being the kind of "lousy" nation-centered people that we seem to be. After all, I think we all agree that we have a lot to gain in sharing our common values. So, please let's be careful when we try to "box" a group of people. Things are never so simple.

So, dear Pocket PC enthousiasts, let's move on to some real Pocket PC thinking !

Love from Québec City,

Antoine Cloutier

[felixdd]

I was there for two weeks...and one thing I can most certainly agree on -- Quebecois drive fast! I mean...100 (km/h) on a 60 (km/h) zone?! By everyone?! (For Americans: that's around the same as doing 60 in a 40 zone).

[Jason Dunn]

I believe there are only 30 million people or so in Canada. To me, it tells a lot more about us canadians not always being a primary target to some vendors.

Very, very true. Of course, there'd be way more of us Canadians if all the provinces paid $15,000 for every baby born (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/columnist/0,1886,56-116618,00.html) like Quebec did from 1986 through 1997. :lol:

The rest of your post is true, but I think this statement stands out:

"It hurts me to read all these posts because I feel it is a step backward in bringing all of us closer to truly becoming world-class citizens instead of just being the kind of "lousy" nation-centered people that we seem to be."

What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment, there's a lot of love waiting from the rest of Canada. :D

[Pony99CA]

I'm all for the beauty of multiculturalism - food, language, art, everything. Quebec had a rich history and is a vital part of Canada - when their politicians aren't trying to break our country apart that is. But what I'm NOT for is archaic laws that simply don't make any sense any more. Our culture as a country has changed dramatically in the past 20 years, and like it not, English is the official language of Canada. The rise of the Internet guaranteed that much at least, along with the pop culture influx of the US into Canada. The self-destructive protectionist laws that try to insulate Quebec continue to strangle Canada - they're only hurting us as a country. Every time the seperatist politicians start making noise about breaking away from Canada, our dollar plummets and foreign investments evaporate like mist.

I agree with your sentiments, Jason. Louisiana was French; they still have unique laws, too, based on the Napoleonic Code if I'm not mistaken. But I've never heard anyone ask for French to be given equal status with English.

I think a common language builds commonality. I think the U.S. became great because of the idea of the melting pot -- immigrants try to fit in, and our culture grows by absorbing some of the cultural aspects of the immigrants.

I had written a lot more about this and my feelings, but I've decided not to post it. It's off-topic, really, and likely controversial. This topic is already on the brink, and I don't want to push it over. :-)

The US has it figured out: they have announcements in languages that make sense for that location. I've heard Spanish, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean, and many others. They do what makes sense for making the process for people easier, not because the law tells them to (unless I'm mistaken on that).

Well, I wouldn't go so far as saying we have it figured out. :-) There are still debates over whether the U.S. should make English the national language, and various states argue about bilingual issues. Commerical issues are easier -- a business will support the languages that make them money.

Anyway, I hope we'll hear the outcome of this suit. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Steve

[Antoine]

Ah, come on Jason. This has to be the most hostile post I've read yet.

Our culture as a country has changed dramatically in the past 20 years, and like it not, English is the official language of Canada.

It is to you.

But if you want Quebecers to feel they are part of Canada, never ever tell them that. Because down here I don't sense English as being so obviously the only language. Mind you, a lot of people still speak that "archaic" language known as French! I mean, in the very everyday life. Like in "Salut maman, comment ça va ?" Or like in "Bonjour, j'aimerais avoir de l'information sur vos vols en partance de Québec vers Calgary." Please, consider this. It might feel strange to you some thousands of kilometres away, but it is a reality here.

However, I can clearly see how artificially imposing the French language all across Canada might be annoying to a lot of people. Personally, I don't expect people outside Quebec to speak to me in French, so, just like you, I would prefer that our government focus on things more important than translating everything everywhere. But please, make amends to your attitude. As an ambassador for the Pocket PC community, you give the false impression that Canada is an English-only country. It is not.

[Antoine]

What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment, there's a lot of love waiting from the rest of Canada. :D

Alright. What does "genuinely acting as part of Canada" mean to you? You are acting as if Quebecers had to do something "special" to be part of Canada. Canada doesn't belong to you any more than it belongs to me. And in my Canada, there's a province called Quebec in which most of the people speak French. If people like you keep saying "English is the official language of Canada", then we are neglecting an important aspect of Canada. Well, to me anyway. And to a lot of people in Quebec I believe.

But I did not want this thread to turn into a linguistic debate. My only point was to bring to the attention of the people that generalizing comments are dangerous and so easy to make. Call me sensitive, but I really feel some despise and hatred against Quebec in some of the posts. Re-read the general tone of the comments and you will see what I mean. This discussion has really become a Quebec bashing thread and I feel sorry for that, because it shouldn't have anything to do with that stupid class-action suit, even less with Pocket PCs !

Antoine Cloutier

[Ramin]

What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment

Enough already... I don't see any relevance discussing this in PocketPCThoughts.com. :| And frankly, I'm quite uneasy reading stuff like this from the Site Admin. Please don't flame me... just my 2 cents. :)

[wrightca]

What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment

Enough already... I don't see any relevance discussing this in PocketPCThoughts.com. :| And frankly, I'm quite uneasy reading stuff like this from the Site Admin. Please don't flame me... just my 2 cents. :)

If you feel uneasy, quit reading it. It's nice to see someone speak their mind as to what they believe in.

[HummerX]

I've been watching this site for awhile now and I really enjoy all the information and news on this, so kudos to Jason and all the pocketpcthoughs supporters, but I never posted anything here before - too lazy I guess :). I am a programmer myself and once I am done with my program this would be the site that I submit it for a review in the future. I notice all the flames on this thread and it's quite interesting to see how people react to something like this.

Of course any good and honest person being reading this thread will feel irritated for scuh an unreasonable lawsuit. We react to them differently and sometimes without thinking, such as having a hostile feeling against Quebec or it people... of which I am more than 90% of the people there have nothing to do with the lawsuit. For Jason, himself, I think it's his personal experience that make him feel that way. I believe everything in life happen for a reason, and there are always a reason why people act the way they act. Therefore I never blame nor hold anything against anyone for feeling the way they feel since I believe deep down inside any of us we are all good people ourselves.

So is this the law that is causing us problem?
From time to time - if not a lot of time- we'll encounter such law that are so unreasonable and we stop to think for a second why do them ever exist? I think most of the law out there is design to protect the people, "us", from ourselves. In another word for given law there are probably a reason and history behind it of why it's there. It's because of men greed that create the need for law system, and again it's men greed that finding the loop holes in the system to get around it. I think we try to outsmart outselves by setting up the law to protect the innocents, since even though it does work to a certain extend. The law will never get perfect and there will always be somebody that succeed in getting around it.

I am comming from an asian country of where the government and the law system is being view as second to worse by other country and it own people. However I don't see it as such, I think it's just as bad anywhere else. I am living in the US now I don't think it get much better. I personally don't like politics and to be quite frankly I think they are dirty as hell comming from either side. However that's not my point, my point is that I believe there are a good and bad people everywhere from country to country as from in and outside the government. I am sure there are just as many good and capable people in comparing to all the idiot that is running the system. It just that since the whole society tied together as a whole everything we do effect another in someway, and when someone have power making a wrong judgement it could wreak havoc and this is when we start to notice. There is a good and evil in each of us, I am sure we all have our share of mistake it just that note many notice since we are just the little people and our mistake most of the time doesn't cost anybody else but ourselves so nobody else notice. This is probably the reason why your wife always nagging you or why your parents got mad at you because whatever you do might affect her or them. I think you get my point now.

So what are my point afterward? Am I here to preach people about the way of life?

No, it's just simply my take on life, my motto is simple if you hate it enough.. do something about it.. if you can't do anything about it.. live with it. I think from time to time we get frustrated at the thing we don't understand or of why thing work. Or perhaps from time to time we get angry at some idiot who is trying to run the system? But do we every look back to ourselves and think what give us the right to judge? Are wereally any better than him/her? And if your answer is yes then I suggest perhaps you should do something about it. Beside the law -at it most basic is made by the people are to serve the people - are being constructed constantly to get better.

As all of us are being tied together as a whole in societly I think whatever we do count. And I believe by open our heart a little more to understand once another. I think all the problems in this world beside misunderstand once another is men greed. The problem lies within us and so is the answer. Together we can make a different through out the world.. and it all start with each of us, with in you and me.

[HummerX]

I am still missing a few things... perhaps I got a little sidetracked but I think most of you got the message.. beside I don't want to spend the whole night bs... :lol:

[jmurphy]

Very, very true. Of course, there'd be way more of us Canadians if all the provinces paid $15,000 for every baby born (http://straitstimes.asia1.com.sg/columnist/0,1886,56-116618,00.html) like Quebec did from 1986 through 1997. :lol:

NONSENSE. That 15 grand may have been the cost of the program, but, no, the gov't did not pay 15 grand to parents to have kids. Never happened.



What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment, there's a lot of love waiting from the rest of Canada. :D

Lotta love, huh? Like "Let the Eastern.... " How'd that work out for you this spring?

John Murphy

[butch]

What's worse than being Nation-centric? Being PROVINCE centric, and that's the saddest thing about the problems between Quebec and the rest of Canada. If Quebec can get past that, and genuinely act as a part of Canada without the need for isolationist laws and special treatment, there's a lot of love waiting from the rest of Canada. :D

Jason, you just tell that English is the official language in Canada... And after you tell that Quebec is province centric... hum.... Think of it...
Anyway, did you know that last month we elect a new gouvernement in Quebec, that should stop the separation debate for at least a few years and I really hope the will take more time to work on real problems.
I don't think the Quebec could survive alone, neither the Canada without the Quebec...
Anyway it is not thw place to take about that, but I know why Jason hate Quebecers, that because of that guy of stole you with that camera... I really don't blame you for that :wink: Did you get your money back? :?:
But, if you want to PM me about your opinion, do it, we will be at least 2 to better understant the "rest" of Canada :-)

[Steven Cedrone]

Posts split and moved to HOF&S...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator