Palm Learns To Walk And Chew Gum At The Same Time

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0,3668,a=41475,00.asp">http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0,3668,a=41475,00.asp</a><br /><br />"The next version of PalmSource Inc.'s handheld operating system will support true multitasking, bringing Palm OS 6.0 up to the level of its competitors and delighting developers who had been expecting it in the previous version."<br /><br />Palm OS 6 is supposed to RTM this fall with devices reaching consumers in early 2004. This version of the market-leading OS will finally allow true multitasking, allowing users to have music playing in the background, working on a document in the foreground while applications like email pulls new data regularly and chat clients stay open listening for new info from your contacts. You should also be able to switch between open forms in applications to copy and paste data rather than having to reopen the form on each "switch" as you do now. Palm OS 5 supports a limited amount of multitasking for certain APIs but it doesn't go all of the way. OS 5 was primarily a stepping stone OS to give developers time to move from OS 4 based code to the new 32bit ARM chips that have become the standard in the more powerful Palm OS devices like the Palm Tungsten T and Sony NX70.<br /><br />It's about time! I can't wait to see if Palm puts a real honest <b>CLOSE</b> button on the UI somewhere. Do you think it will?

[remon]

Sorry, but this is too little, too late. I switched to the Pocket PC nearly two years ago precisely because of the lack of multi-tasking. I couldn't look up a phone number while downloading my mail, I couldn't keep the context of a running program if I switched momentarily to another one, etc. I'm no great fan of Microsoft, but I'm not about to cut off my nose to spite my face. It is simply rediculous that it has taken Palm so long to get to this point. I used to love Palm, but I'm not switching back.

[bdegroodt]

It's about time! I can't wait to see if Palm puts a real honest CLOSE button on the UI somewhere. Do you think it will?

Personally, I can't wait to see MSFT do this as well. It cost me $14 extra to get what you would think is a standard function (Done very nicely by SPB). Should have shipped with the unit in the first place :D

[Mexico]

If you say "I could care less," it means you actually care at least a little tiny bit.
If you say "I couldn't care less", then it really means you don't give a crap.
This is one of those things that is not that important, but it's still good to know. :wink:

Anyway, probably you couldn't care less... :D

[snowlion]

having a design requirement that one cannot have an exit menu option in pocketpc apps just means that someone didn't think it thru.

in the simpler days (read palm os) it was ok...but when an app uses a physical resource (e.g. serial port), then you have to allow the user to exit the program because he might want to use another app that wants to use that resource.

i like the idea of the os managing program termination etc., but i don't see why having a exit menu option needs to be mutually exclusive.

[Cypher]

I'm going to be just a bit amused if, when Palm OS 6 devices come out, users discover that their device doesn't seem to run as fast as the OS 5 ones and that they experience performance and stability issues when several programs run at the same time.

If, on the other hand, OS 6 is rock-solid, speedy, and doesn't put odd constraints on which programs can multi-task, I'll have lost a big reason for why I prefer Pocket PC OS.

I guess we'll find out in about a year.

[alexjlee]

I switched from an e740 to a tungsten T
because it was just so much more reliable while
i was travelling. the e740 was fun, but flaky...
I understand the pocketpc philosophy, but palm
just worked out better for me in the end.

I just wanted to point out that i can already
play music in the background(realplayer) and
poll for mail at intervals (snappermail or versamail)

[Busdriver]

This is all beginning to look like a tortoise and hare race, with MS being the hare. Assuming, of course, that the Palm 6.0 OS does what they claim.

[oturn]

Until I recently saw the screen on the new Zire 71 and Tungsten C, I would have been in the "could care less" camp, but the higher resolution Palm's have left me shell shocked!! I've actually purchased a Tungsten C to evaluate. Quit honestly, I'll probably return it because there are so many Pocket PC applications which I need that just aren't available on the Palm. However! OMG...the screen! It's really amazing how stunning the higher resolution screen looks. Browsing the web at home via 802.11b is actually MUCH MORE enjoyable now with the Tungsten C than with my Dell Axim. Pocket PC's now look downright blurry in comparison.

Another sad/amazing fact about the new Palms....they now have a MUCH better web browser, and much better Office document compatibility out of the box. WOW.

I really hope Microsoft is paying attention, and that they don't wait too long to address these issues...

[tj21]

I'll curious to see if this really turns out to be an upgrade for Palm. Multitasking is nice but honestly there are limited applications where I really use it. My Clie already handles background mp3 play and e-mail still checks regularly. Don't get me wrong I'd like to have multitasking but one of the things I really like about the Clie over my e740 is that it's much faster and stays that fast throughout the day. On the e740 I'm not sure the small gain of multitasking is worth the performance hit it appears to require. If Palm or MS can overcome the slowdowns and instability I'm all for it but otherwise I'd likely prefer a single app runtime. I can't help but think this is being developed largely because it's the most obvious deficit in comparison to Pocket PC's but I wonder if the user base is really demanding this.

Personally I see Palm's need for a real file system and better support of native document types as much bigger weaknesses. Compare that to MS's need for better resolution screens (240x320 is headache inducing after spending any time with the Clie 320X480 screen) and better Office support and it will be interesting to if either company manages to fix their main weaknesses with their upcoming releases. New marketing features are great but it would be nice to see both companies address some real functional needs as well.

[Foo Fighter]

PIC has what might be a possible screenshot of the new OS. But judging from the description, it sounds more like a concept UI design.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg

[Jonathan1]

NICE.....high rez screen AND multitasking. Add virtual input area and something other then graffiti (Isn’t Palm going to Jot?) and I will switch back to Palm.

[Jonathan1]

LOL never mind my previous post. Foo has answered the virtual input area.

PS are they going to add a real file system yet?

[roberto_torres]

Wow these new palms look really cool. Higher resolution than PPC, full office compatibility (now they even do native .doc and .xls).

Also now there is a new Divx player for Palm OS. http://mmplayer.com/


I hope Microsoft takes notice and does not leave us behind.

PS: In palm you can play music in the background with the included Real player, also all other music player and snappermail, and versamail allow background running.


Also Microsoft should definitely add a Close button. If it weren't for the good guys at SBP and their incredibly cool Pocket Plus, I would not be using PPC. :wink:

[Nellwaskilled]

I thought you were going all crazy about the Kinoma? what happens?

Well by the time any device is out based on this OS (Q1-2 '04) I think we already see some sort of rumor of CE 5.0

[ricksfiona]

Call me paranoid, but have you noticed that the people 'talking-up' the Tungsten have posted less than a dozen times since they've joined?

My 2 cents:
1) Yes, the screen on the Tungsten looks VERY nice. BUT, since I can't find the specifications for it ANYWHERE, it looks like the screen size is smaller than my IPAQ 3870, which is unacceptable in my book. I do quite a bit of data entry on my IPAQ and it get's really old to input data on such a small screen.

2) It's a very cool looking device. HP needs to lend it's expertise in this arena to the IPAQ. Though the 1910 is still sleeker than the Tungsten. I would like to get a thumb-based keyboard that would be color-coordinated to my IPAQ.

3) 400MHz on a Palm would be blazingly fast! Of course, try running any version of DOS on a Pentium 4. Run WordPerfect 5.1-DOS versus WordPerfect 10-WinXP and see which runs faster. But then again, you can't multi-task in DOS (not natively). For the Palm zealots, it might not be as important.

4) Palm may get multi-tasking ready by early 2004, but that doesn't mean that all applications will be optimized, or even compatible with the OS. Expect 3 - 6 months of break-in time.

I'm impressed that PALM has made such progress in a short amount of time. But, I agree with an earlier post about it being 'too little too late'. Though, Palm still has a big market share of the PDA market and may keep that share or increase it with with these new found features.

I see the Palm and Pocket PC as two different markets. Palm types like to keep things simple while the PPC group wants features and power. Unless Palm changes it's form factor, they won't be able to make in-roads into the PPC group. You just can't have the same kind of features in a form factor that's 25% smaller than your competitor.

I think the Tungsten is a kick-ass product for the Palm people. Built-in Wi-Fi and that beautiful screen make it rock!

But, you can't match the versatility, HUGE application diversity and peripherals that you can get with the Pocket PC. Hey, it's all about accesorizing!

[Jonathan1]

I thought you were going all crazy about the Kinoma? what happens?

Well by the time any device is out based on this OS (Q1-2 '04) I think we already see some sort of rumor of CE 5.0

4th quarter 2003 and where are these rumors of CE 5 you talk of?

Also there is something to be said for a company that doesn't have their hand in to many cookie jars. Microsoft could drop the Pocket PC tomorrow and they wouldn't miss a beat. Palm on the other hand...if they stop swimming they die. Palm HAS to keep innovating to stay alive or if nothing else from being bought out. To date there hasn’t been a whole heck of a lot to get excited over when it comes to Palm. This changes things.

[Foo Fighter]

...4th quarter 2003...

No, that is when the OS will be released to OEMs. Hardware based on OS6 won't appear on the market until early to mid-2004.

[cdunphy]

But, you can't match the versatility, HUGE application diversity and peripherals that you can get with the Pocket PC. Hey, it's all about accesorizing!

Uhm, I just can't let this one pass....

Versatility.... In hardware, PalmOS runs on devices ranging from the Fossil watch to the Garmin PDA to the laptop-like Alphasmart to the as-small-as-a-phone Samsung i500 to the 802.11 enabled Tungsten-C, and so on... Not to mention the uber-devices from Sony.

Pocket PC runs on a bunch of all but identical clones. Yawn.

The PalmOS wins hands down when comparing the breadth and versatility of solutions.

Application diversity?!?! Check out PalmGear.com.... I've never heard anyone argue that Pocket PC has more applications than PalmOS. Really - whatever your niche, there is likely PalmOS software out for it. Lots of it. And don't bother with the '1000 calculators' retort - there is a LOT of really good, very powerful, and very professional software out for PalmOS.

Peripherals? Again - a larger installed base leads to more accessories. PalmOS wins again....


If it is indeed all about accessorizing, you really are hanging out in the wrong camp. (Unless you consider a Today screen theme THAT exciting....)


- chris

PS - I'm not saying that there aren't cool apps, nor hardware for Pocket PC. There are actually quit a bit of the former, and even a bit of the later. But it does bother me when I see Pocket PC fans who's only concept of a PalmOS device is an old Palm V running nothing more advanced than the calendar app. If you haven't checked out what the latest PalmOS apps can do, you are really doing yourself a disservice.

[Jonathan1]

...4th quarter 2003...

No, that is when the OS will be released to OEMs. Hardware based on OS6 won't appear on the market until early to mid-2004.

I thought Palminfocenter said summer early fall for OS6...dang :(

[Foo Fighter]

I thought Palminfocenter said summer early fall for OS6...dang :(

Q4 for OS6, but devices based on it won't follow for another several months. Mobile operating system rollouts aren't like desktop releases where hardware vendors start stuffing the new OS into their products right away. This requires months of testing and product development, so that new hardware can be built around the software.

[ricksfiona]

But, you can't match the versatility, HUGE application diversity and peripherals that you can get with the Pocket PC. Hey, it's all about accesorizing!

Uhm, I just can't let this one pass....

Versatility.... In hardware, PalmOS runs on devices ranging from the Fossil watch to the Garmin PDA to the laptop-like Alphasmart to the as-small-as-a-phone Samsung i500 to the 802.11 enabled Tungsten-C, and so on... Not to mention the uber-devices from Sony.

Pocket PC runs on a bunch of all but identical clones. Yawn.

The PalmOS wins hands down when comparing the breadth and versatility of solutions.

Application diversity?!?! Check out PalmGear.com.... I've never heard anyone argue that Pocket PC has more applications than PalmOS. Really - whatever your niche, there is likely PalmOS software out for it. Lots of it. And don't bother with the '1000 calculators' retort - there is a LOT of really good, very powerful, and very professional software out for PalmOS.

Peripherals? Again - a larger installed base leads to more accessories. PalmOS wins again....


If it is indeed all about accessorizing, you really are hanging out in the wrong camp. (Unless you consider a Today screen theme THAT exciting....)


- chris

PS - I'm not saying that there aren't cool apps, nor hardware for Pocket PC. There are actually quit a bit of the former, and even a bit of the later. But it does bother me when I see Pocket PC fans who's only concept of a PalmOS device is an old Palm V running nothing more advanced than the calendar app. If you haven't checked out what the latest PalmOS apps can do, you are really doing yourself a disservice.
You see.... A PalmSource employee & less than 12 post since September..... Objectivity? Doubt it.

Plus, there's no detail to this post.... What peripherals? Versatility? Gee, Palm OS can run on a watch. Let me hold back my excitement :zzz: Peripherals? Oooh, Sony has a nice, over-priced camera :zzz:

BTW, you want to take a look at a bunch of software clones, look at PalmSource for perfect examples!

I was an avid Palm user 2 years ago. I switched cause:
* The PIM for PocketPC is better than anything for the Palm. Was the built-in PIM, now TransACT.
* Internet related apps are better than Palm. You could surf on a Palm when I bought my 3870, in b/w.
* My 3870 has built-in Bluetooth. No Palm device had that then.
* Memory. Then only 16MB. Only a year later, has Palm caught up with Pocket PC in this regard.
* At that time, superior screen. Palm had color, 16 of them I believe. You could also do real data entry with a PocketPC screen and not go blind. BTW, I have 20/20 vision.

BTW, I'm not trying to bad-mouth PalmSource. They offer a good service to its users. Just do a look-up of PIM's and see how many come-up. Plenty and not many of them are very different from one another.

Like I said, Palm has made some great improvements over the year and I have given credit where credit is due. That's all I'll say on this subject.

[QYV]

So does Jason actually grant PalmSource employees a tag so they can be identified when they post...?

[Foo Fighter]

So does Jason actually grant PalmSource employees a tag so they can be identified when they post...?

I was wondering the same thing. How did he pull that off? :wink:

[Marc Zimmermann]

It's about time! I can't wait to see if Palm puts a real honest CLOSE button on the UI somewhere. Do you think it will?
I miss another option in the poll: I don't care about "close" buttons at all. The smart minimize works quite well for me.

[cdunphy]

Yes - sometime last year the tag popped up to help us PalmSource lurkers stand out. I am an avid Pocket PC Thoughts reader, though I only post on occasion. But, tag or no tag, I have never tried to hide my affiliation with PalmSource.

As for being biased and un-objective... Well, I think you'd be surprised how unbiased and objective I actually am. Jason has met me and we've had some great conversations. I think he can vouch for me - at least as far as my technical and industry knowledge goes. My opinions and tastes however likely differ rather dramatically from most PPC fans....

I wasn't trying to attack PPC - I just felt compelled to step in to correct misconceptions about what PalmOS devices are capable of. PalmOS devices of 2 years ago are worlds apart from what is possible (both in hardware and software) today. There has been dramatic change, and it seem that most PPC fans still have an image in their head of yesterdays devices and applications.... (160x160 monochrome is light years away from todays 320x480 16bit gfx accelerated screens!)

But - I think you will have to agree - the Pocket PC hasn't changed much at all in the past two year's time while PalmOS has been busy evolving out of the dark ages.



I'm surprised that there hasn't been much conversation around here about the newly announced TapWave device. If you haven't seen any of the reports - surf around for them. Where is the PPC licensee with a 320x480 gaming device with analog input, graphics acceleration, and dual SD slots?? All I see in the pipeline are just more clones...

Clones are fine, and have their place. But the world really is much more exciting nowadays than it was 2 years ago.... ;-)

- chris

[io333]

I'm gonna have to almost agree with the PalmSource dude. Three months ago I dumped a Clie SJ30 and went to Axim and thought I'd never look back. Well I'm not looking back -- I'm looking forware and here is what I see: No plans at all for a higher res PPC device. 240x320 is like looking at a circa 1986 VGA .32dpi monitor to my eyes and it's driving me nuts.

Here is my prediction: The first out the door with 320x480, SD slot, and either built in WiFi or a CF slot (so I can just stick my current wifi card in) for $200 gets my money. I could care less who makes the hardware or what OS it runs. I don't want a camera, I don't want a keyboard, and don't want any silly stuff at all, just a basic platform with standard expandability and a good screen.

Eventually someone is going to make that, and for that price. The questions are only when, and who.

My prediction: Palm will make it and it will be announced right around Christmas. I don't care if that prediction is wrong, I just want the hardware.

[JMountford]

I am a techy, NOT a brainwashed Microsoft lackey. That being said, I find it ridiculous that the one competitor MS really wanted to set it's self apart from is catching up easily while MS and all of the device makers just sit with their collective thumbs up their bumms.

While Pocket PC devices have stayed very static (big changes being cameras, maybe a built in keyboard on one PPCPE device, and somewhat better screens) Palm devices have changed and been upgraded dramatically. The Tungsten and Sony Clie's are awesome devices. Yet all Pocket PCs are pretty much the same. Add to my complaint the fact that now ODMs are using cheap memory that you can't use the way you should be able to.

The difference was the OS ion the MS devices. That is what truly set them apart. And it looks like MS will loose that advantage as well.

I mean how many bloody years have we been waiting for Smartphones from MS? There is ONE carrier with one device. I say Smartphone is more Vaporware than anything else.

Microsoft needs to wake up and take a sniff. What they smell is the winds of change and defeat, either that or their thumbs coming out of their bumms.

[bdegroodt]

I am a techy, NOT a brainwashed Microsoft lackey. That being said, I find it ridiculous that the one competitor MS really wanted to set it's self apart from is catching up easily while MS and all of the device makers just sit with their collective thumbs up their bumms.

While Pocket PC devices have stayed very static (big changes being cameras, maybe a built in keyboard on one PPCPE device, and somewhat better screens) Palm devices have changed and been upgraded dramatically. The Tungsten and Sony Clie's are awesome devices. Yet all Pocket PCs are pretty much the same. Add to my complaint the fact that now ODMs are using cheap memory that you can't use the way you should be able to.

The difference was the OS ion the MS devices. That is what truly set them apart. And it looks like MS will loose that advantage as well.

I mean how many bloody years have we been waiting for Smartphones from MS? There is ONE carrier with one device. I say Smartphone is more Vaporware than anything else.

Microsoft needs to wake up and take a sniff. What they smell is the winds of change and defeat, either that or their thumbs coming out of their bumms.

I concur. However, that's what a $40 billion war chest affords you. Trust me, Palm is in a make or break situation for it's future. They have some cash, but it's much more valuable than cash is to MSFT. That means no big screw ups and maximizing product releases vs MSFT that can afford 3 revs before getting it acceptable.

My reasons for buying a PPC still make me keep my PPC. That said, this year and the first part of next should be very interesting to watch for both markets (Palm & PPC). We should all benefit from better devices in the end.

[Ed Hansberry]

PalmOS devices of 2 years ago are worlds apart from what is possible (both in hardware and software) today. There has been dramatic change, and it seem that most PPC fans still have an image in their head of yesterdays devices and applications.... (160x160 monochrome is light years away from todays 320x480 16bit gfx accelerated screens!)

But - I think you will have to agree - the Pocket PC hasn't changed much at all in the past two year's time while PalmOS has been busy evolving out of the dark ages.
Yes, but 2 years ago Palm was telling us that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex. Once again "you don't need it until we have it." :roll:

[rhmorrison]

It's about time! I can't wait to see if Palm puts a real honest CLOSE button on the UI somewhere. Do you think it will?
I miss another option in the poll: I don't care about "close" buttons at all. The smart minimize works quite well for me.
Also forgotten was the: I don't care because I already use the "XYZ" utility that provides this functionality.
I have tried several and am currently using Icbar even though GigaBar is much more powerful!

[TawnerX]

Versatility.... In hardware, PalmOS runs on devices ranging from the Fossil watch to the Garmin PDA to the laptop-like Alphasmart to the as-small-as-a-phone Samsung i500 to the 802.11 enabled Tungsten-C, and so on... Not to mention the uber-devices from Sony.

What you call versatility, in some corner is called vaporware.
Where is Garmin? where is Fossil watch? where is i500?

now, let's see:
h5450, h1910, and samsung i700. All real product that one can buy in the store.

Hell probably the samsung smartphones will get released first before that i500, let alone the July h2200, 1945 and 5555.


Pocket PC runs on a bunch of all but identical clones. Yawn.

The PalmOS wins hands down when comparing the breadth and versatility of solutions.

oh yeah everybody is very impressed with that cacheeka and tapwave thingy... &lt;yawn>


Application diversity?!?! Check out PalmGear.com.... I've never heard anyone argue that Pocket PC has more applications than PalmOS. Really - whatever your niche, there is likely PalmOS software out for it. Lots of it. And don't bother with the '1000 calculators' retort - there is a LOT of really good, very powerful, and very professional software out for PalmOS.

Palm application diversity? that's like saying one thousand poodles with different hair dos, diverse breed of dogs.

Probably the 1000 PPC apps already would have covers 99% or that diverse apps, let alone the entire 8k.



Peripherals? Again - a larger installed base leads to more accessories. PalmOS wins again....

yeah it's divese allright,
thin keyboard, folding keyboard, refurbish folding keyboard.... (you get the point)


If it is indeed all about accessorizing, you really are hanging out in the wrong camp. (Unless you consider a Today screen theme THAT exciting....)

what you call accessory in Palm, is what we call decoration in PPC. PDA accessory in PPC is more in the line of CF, sleeve, and serial ports extensions.

[Will T Smith]

I'll curious to see if this really turns out to be an upgrade for Palm. Multitasking is nice but honestly there are limited applications where I really use it. My Clie already handles background mp3 play and e-mail still checks regularly. Don't get me wrong I'd like to have multitasking but one of the things I really like about the Clie over my e740 is that it's much faster and stays that fast throughout the day. On the e740 I'm not sure the small gain of multitasking is worth the performance hit it appears to require.
...

If you run more than one program on your handheld, multi-tasking affects you. You use it on EVERY program.

Put quite simply a pre-emptively multi-tasking OS manages CPU resources. A co-operative multi-tasking environment allows the apps themselves to manage it. Remember back to the Windows 3.1/MacOS days, well it turns out that co-operative leeds to greedy applications and lots of freeze-ups.

Furthermore, it's far harder to write applications for a co-operative environment as every app must help manage passing system resources around.


Microsoft beware. Palm/Sony is starting to make the PocketPC look outdated. An feature upgrade is warranted AND necessary to maintain PocketPC's recent growth.

[thenikjones]

PIC has what might be a possible screenshot of the new OS. But judging from the description, it sounds more like a concept UI design.

http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/possible_palm_os6_ss_l.jpg

Blimey! Palm does both Home and Work details for a single contact! It's about time.

[TBone]

As for Tapwave, well, I'm not convinced. What does it honestly offer me that my Gameboy Advance won't? An organizer? I own several, some that play games and some that don't. I'm not looking for that in a console. People don't buy things like a PS2 or an X-Box because they'll do home computing. They buy them because they'll play games, and do it really well. I'm not convinced that the PalmOS is the best way to go where that's concerned.

Moreover, for those who want to know where the PocketPC gaming devices are, I have two answers: first, PocketPCs already do gaming at a pretty stunning level. I don't want it dumbed down just to do games. I use my PocketPC games as a distraction, not as an end in themselves. That's why I own the GBA. Second, remember the Dreamcast? Great console, way ahead of its time, PS2 still catching up to it? And remember what was stamped on the front of every one? Powered by Microsoft Windows CE. Not PocketPC, sure, but that's exactly what Tapwave wants to do, use a subset of PalmOS to run its gaming system.

As I see it, their problem is their determination to do everything AND gaming. I don't want that on my Gameboy. I just want games. That's what sells a console, and I haven't heard a word about any game that's going to sell this device instead of any other Palm or PocketPC.

[cdunphy]

The TapWave Helix is designed from the ground up as a gaming device - much more so than ANY other handheld to date. It is not an organizer doing games as a side job... It is a gaming machine that just happens to be able to run a few thousand PalmOS apps.

I expect it will handily run circles around the GBA. And it is a night and day better gaming experience than the N-Gauge... (yuck)

A few of the gaming-centric features:

+ Huge landscape 480x320 screen, with ATI accelerated graphics.
+ ANALOG thumbstick for proportional control, a first on a handheld.
+ Top mounted left and right trigger buttons.
+ Sensibly layed out fire / action button array.
+ Bluetooth for multi-player gaming.
+ DUAL SD slots.

The hardware really is awfully impressive. And Activison, Midway, and Infogrames were signed up as partners at the company launch.

I just got back from E3, and the developer buzz around the Helix was pretty intense. We had a non-stop stream of major gaming developers stopping by to see the device and talk with us about handheld gaming.

Is Microsoft devoting any efforts to evangelizing handheld gaming?? Is there any Pocket PC licensee willing to bring out a gaming oriented device?

I expect we will soon see just a bunch more clones. Hopefully all of them will at the very least be able to "run and fire" at the same time by responding to multiple keypresses, unlike some of the earlier devices.


To be fair - the Pocket PC has had a nice run as a great platform for high-end handheld gaming, and there are some very impressive games. But times are changing, and I don't think the best games will be coming out on Pocket PC for much longer....

- chris

[wirelessgeek]

The TapWave Helix is designed from the ground up as a gaming device - much more so than ANY other handheld to date....- chris

Hi Chris,

How are ya? The TapWave Game Device looks very impressive. But why is the N-Gage yuck!?

I have a few questions and i hope you will find the time to answer them if you can....

-I wonder if there will be more Palm Inc. PDAs and Palm OS licensee PDAs in the future with Bluilt-in Bluetooth besides TapWave and the Sony ones? I asked this because a lot of so-called tech writers and other people think that Palm brought the T/C to the market because they see no future with Bluetooth!?

-Is there a Bluetooth (and WiFi) SD Card coming based on PalmOS5?

-And could we expect a Palm Inc. PDA with both WiFi and Bluetooth in the future?

Thanx in advance.

wgeek :wink:

[drac]

Yes, but 2 years ago Palm was telling us that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex. Once again "you don't need it until we have it
Now, now, Ed.

Be fair.

2 years ago Palm was telling [you] that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex given the technology of the time.

I'll agree that Palm stepped over into stagnation; but logic and fairness will recognise that there are consumer benefits from staying a step back from the bleeding edge of technology.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yes, but 2 years ago Palm was telling us that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex. Once again "you don't need it until we have it
Now, now, Ed.

Be fair.

2 years ago Palm was telling [you] that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex given the technology of the time.

2 years ago we had 64MB 206MHz Pocket PCs. Sony had transflective screens, memory stick slots and audio capibilities. The tech was there 2 years ago.

[drac]

...and both those Sonys and those PPC's had abysmal batterylife.

It is good that Palm finally got off their laurels and listened to the customer; but at the same time, some of the decisions they had made had reasonable basis.

Only now is battery tech really making some of the features that we've wanted truly practical.


I'm glad that you bring up the Sony PDA's, because they illustrate that the issue here really goes beyond petty PDA-OS warfare.

[Ed Hansberry]

...and both those Sonys and those PPC's had abysmal batterylife.

It is good that Palm finally got off their laurels and listened to the customer; but at the same time, some of the decisions they had made had reasonable basis.

Only now is battery tech really making some of the features that we've wanted truly practical.
Please explain the leaps in battery technology in the past two years. We are dealing today with the same basic lithium polymer batteries. The Tungsten C just crammed a 1500mA battery in there, which is the largest in a PDA that I know of with the possible exception of what Sony uses in the NR/NX/NZ series.

[drac]

Higher capacity batteries, but smaller and cheaper than would have been possible a few years ago.

An incremental improvement, but one of great significance.

[Ed Hansberry]

Higher capacity batteries, but smaller and cheaper than would have been possible a few years ago.

An incremental improvement, but one of great significance.
Do you have a link for that? I would be interested in reading up on those advances. Thanks!

[drac]

Why do I need a link? I wasn't aware that my statement was controversial.

Do you disagree with me? Do you have any further information to share?

I know this is a PPC site, but I am for fair, equitable analysis no matter where I'm posting.

If I'm wrong, educate me. It's all about fair discussion and spread of accurate information, after all...

[Ed Hansberry]

Why do I need a link?
Because I am interested in reading up on it. I wasn't aware that battery technology had advanced enough in the past 2 years to allow materially higher capacities in smaller and/or lighter packages. A google didn't help me find anything discussing it.

[drac]

I answered not on the basis of a specific article, but on general knowledge. We both know that incrementally decreasing costs and smaller sizes are the trend in electronics. We also know that cost and size are important limiting factors in components for handhelds.

Thus, it is my (seemingly reasonable) impression that PDA batteries of a particular capacity are likely are incrementally smaller and cheaper than those of a few years ago.

Of course, any gains in this arena would only be complemented by those in screen and CPU technology. I'm fairly sure that screens and CPU's of today are less power-hungry than those of a few years ago- though there too, I could be wrong.


Again, though- what are your impressions on this issue?

[Ed Hansberry]

Thus, it is my (seemingly reasonable) impression that PDA batteries of a particular capacity are likely are incrementally smaller and cheaper than those of a few years ago.
Normally, I would agree with that assessment. However, there is one area of technology that moves with glacial speed - power. Be it improvements in the internal combustion engine or electric batteries, improvements seem to be very incremental and happen over long periods of time when compared to improvements in RAM, CPUs, hard drive speeds/sizes, video performance, etc.

As you stated, we seem to get more improvements in battery life from more energy efficient devices rather than from the battery itself.

In the area of battery life, I just don't see that there have been significant advances in the past 2 years to warrant Palm making a claim that they were waiting for the maturation of battery technology to a level that allows them to do feature X. If I am wrong, I'd really be interested in reading some laymen level information on it.

The battery thing, IMHO, is really a red herring. Palm, IIRC, started on OS5 back in 1999. It will take them until this fall with OS6 to release a full blown 32bit OS and the spring of 2004 before devices come out. OS5 was an interim OS that was originally never intended to be released. It just got to a point that the competition was embarrassing them and they decided to come out with something that allowed their OEM partners (Sony) to focus on applications and devices rather than OS and hardware hacks to satisfy their desire to put music, video and higher resolution screens on the devices. It also gave developers some breathing room and time to get familiar with the new ARM code.

I don't think for a second that if Palm had OS6 ready to go in the fall of 2001 that they would have put it on the shelf and said "Ok, the OS is done. Lets just wait now for batteries to get where we need them so we can deliver multitasking, music, hi-res screens, [insert new-for-Palm-technology here], etc."

[drac]

In the area of battery life, I just don't see that there have been significant advances in the past 2 years to warrant Palm making a claim that they were waiting for the maturation of battery technology to a level that allows them to do feature X. If I am wrong, I'd really be interested in reading some laymen level information on it.

The battery thing, IMHO, is really a red herring. Palm, IIRC, started on OS5 back in 1999. It will take them until this fall with OS6 to release a full blown 32bit OS and the spring of 2004 before devices come out. OS5 was an interim OS that was originally never intended to be released. It just got to a point that the competition was embarrassing them and they decided to come out with something that allowed their OEM partners (Sony) to focus on applications and devices rather than OS and hardware hacks to satisfy their desire to put music, video and higher resolution screens on the devices. It also gave developers some breathing room and time to get familiar with the new ARM code.

I don't think for a second that if Palm had OS6 ready to go in the fall of 2001 that they would have put it on the shelf and said "Ok, the OS is done. Lets just wait now for batteries to get where we need them so we can deliver multitasking, music, hi-res screens, [insert new-for-Palm-technology here], etc."
I think that I see where you are coming from.

"Lets just wait now for batteries to get where we need them so we can deliver multitasking, music, hi-res screens, [insert new-for-Palm-technology here], etc." would indeed have been a ridiculous thing to have said.

Palm never said it, nor indeed did I.

What was said, is that the kinds of features offered by PPC's and by Sony units involved (at that time) tradeoffs of cost, unit size, battery life, and UI complexity that Palm was not prepared to make.

It would be ludicrous to imply that battery life was the only thing holding Palm back- and such implication was never my intention. It would be almost as ludicrous to deny that Palm allowed itself to stagnate to a shameful degree- and, indeed, that is why I haven't purchased a Palm unit in what, 5 years?

But it is also silly to deny that PPC/ PalmOS-Sony features, as appealing as they have been, did come at the cost of those tradeoffs.

The fact that Palm (especially under Yanowski) was nonetheless prepared to attempt to milk their brandname and leading marketshare by overpricing their units and letting their R&D wither does not in itself invalidate recognition of the existence of those tradeoffs.

Am I perhaps being clearer?


As for PalmOS 6 in 2001- well, it is my suspicion that even had it been ready then, we would still be seeing a low-cost, greyscale, feature-limited, enthusiast-scorned, well-selling, Zire-style Palm units- though probably in addition to a more full-featured model at a premium price.



It is easy to focus only on the grave errors of "the other side", and to miss the fact that, among the errors, they did have valid points to make.

[Ed Hansberry]

In What was said, is that the kinds of features offered by PPC's and by Sony units involved (at that time) tradeoffs of cost, unit size, battery life, and UI complexity that Palm was not prepared to make.
I think in the case of Palm, they were not capable of making the changes. Technically or mentally, they couldn't get out of PalmIII/PalmV world. It wasn't until 2002 and the Tungsten T did they finally leave behind the Palm V mindset that started in 1998 or early 1999.
But it is also silly to deny that PPC/ PalmOS-Sony features, as appealing as they have been, did come at the cost of those tradeoffs.
Absolutely no question there either. I would say close to 100% of the decisions on a Pocket PC or any other PDA involve trade offs. Bright screen, or better battery life? Richer features or faster performance? Memory card or smaller device?
Am I perhaps being clearer?
I think so, but I still stand by my statement of "you don't need it until we have it" mentality Palm had. For years, they and their fans said you don't need color screens, music, voice recording, storage cards (there was once a page on their site that had something to the effect of the complexity involved to a user by having a storage card), Office files, web browsing (remember web clipping?) etc. Now in 2003 they have all of that and more. Why was it complex an unnecessary in 2000 but not in 2003? Palms capabilities, plain and simple. It had nothing to do with technology levels, as the iPAQ proved and Sony followed a year later with the PalmOS no less.

As for PalmOS 6 in 2001- well, it is my suspicion that even had it been ready then, we would still be seeing a low-cost, greyscale, feature-limited, enthusiast-scorned, well-selling, Zire-style Palm units- though probably in addition to a more full-featured model at a premium price.
Probably. Only in the past 2 years have color screens really come of age on handhelds. The transflective screen introduced by Sony is top notch. In 2001, you either had reflective (dust collector) or backlit (invisible in sunlight) or gray-scale - which worked well in both areas but obviously had no color. Tradeoffs. :D

[drac]

I still stand by my statement of "you don't need it until we have it" mentality Palm had.
Right, I should nave commented directly on that.

Sure, they had that mentality- but no more than anyone else!


What is your alternative?

"Yes, we understand that you need this feature. We don't have it, and can't be bothered to get it, so why not try a competitor?"

:D

I understand that PPC 2003 is supposed to allow you to jump to a section of the contacts list by entering the appropriate letter. PalmOS devices have been doing that from the very beginning. Similarly, Graffiti-type character entry and any sort of participation in the low-end market were portrayed by PPC vendors and enthusiasts as being unnecessary- that is, until they were offered on the PPC platform.

Every company is going to try to paint its products in the best possible light, which will include the attempt to paint non-offered features as being unnecessary or "not worth it".

Palm has done it; so has Microsoft, as well as every public company out there which values marketing. Attempting to paint this as some special characteristic of Palm's is simply doublespeak. Palm's distinctive error lay in stagnation, not in some unusual misrepresentation of high-end features.


I am personally trying to move past the "my OS vs. your OS" position that is so common- and doing so involves recognising that many popular criticisms on both sides are really just so much ignorance and hot air- or apathy on the part of those who repeat them without examination.

[Ed Hansberry]

Sure, they had that mentality- but no more than anyone else!

What is your alternative?

"Yes, we understand that you need this feature. We don't have it, and can't be bothered to get it, so why not try a competitor?"

:D

{snip}

Every company is going to try to paint its products in the best possible light, which will include the attempt to paint non-offered features as being unnecessary or "not worth it".
To be fair, I don't see MS or their OEM partners doing this. Do they spin? Yes, of course. But when I mention feature X to MS there is generally 3 responses I expect back.
• Yes, we know and are working on something like that.
• Yes, we know. However, we have this which can do the same thing but a bit differently.
• Cool! {eyes light up} So, explain a real world situation how that would work.

Even in public, you very rarely see MS say "our users don't need that feature" unless they are talking about something very specific and prefer their own feature to fulfill that need.

So instead of doing similar, Palm has been saying you don't need it. Meanwhile, Compaq/HP, Toshiba, Dell, Sony and even Handspring have been saying "well, we think you *do* need it so here you go."

[sasquatchw/ppc]

I didn't read the thread but I took a look at the poll and yu know that the X button when you have pocketblinds running really closes the app.

[drac]

To be fair, I don't see MS or their OEM partners doing this. Do they spin? Yes, of course. But when I mention feature X to MS there is generally 3 responses I expect back.
• Yes, we know and are working on something like that.
• Yes, we know. However, we have this which can do the same thing but a bit differently.
• Cool! {eyes light up} So, explain a real world situation how that would work.
Perhaps that is as much a function of your unusual position as anything else?

I'm just an outsider with examples. :D

Seriously, I don't see your protestation as refuting my point. Both Microsoft and Palm made initial decisions as to what was best for them to implement, and both put spin on them where necessary. Both Microsoft and Palm have "spun-down" user requests where necessary; both Microsoft and Palm do eventually fulfill user demand if it is greater enough.

Palm went into "stagnation mode" for long enough that many of their users abandoned them for other licensees or other platforms; I am now hearing a familiar rumbling from many PPC users who feel that the platform has stagnated somewhat, and that the advantages that PPC held for them over PalmOS are rapidly eroding (though not necessarily gone).

I recognise that you have the ear of Microsoft and the PPC licensees to some degree, but the same is not true of J. Random User, for whom options#1 and #3 are only dreams, and option#2 often unsatisfactory.

[cdunphy]

The TapWave Helix is designed from the ground up as a gaming device - much more so than ANY other handheld to date....- chris

Hi Chris,

How are ya? The TapWave Game Device looks very impressive. But why is the N-Gage yuck!?

I have a few questions and i hope you will find the time to answer them if you can....

-I wonder if there will be more Palm Inc. PDAs and Palm OS licensee PDAs in the future with Bluilt-in Bluetooth besides TapWave and the Sony ones? I asked this because a lot of so-called tech writers and other people think that Palm brought the T/C to the market because they see no future with Bluetooth!?

-Is there a Bluetooth (and WiFi) SD Card coming based on PalmOS5?

-And could we expect a Palm Inc. PDA with both WiFi and Bluetooth in the future?

Thanx in advance.

wgeek :wink:

Here are a few of the reasons I am not at all personally impressed with th N-Guage:

+ The speaker and microphone are on the left thin edge of the device. When you hold it up to your ear to use it as a phone, I've heard several people say that it "looks like you are talking into a taco." Having seen someone making a call on an N-Gauge, I have to agree.

+ The buttons just aren't laid out for gaming. Right under the thumb D-Pad are the buttons to launch the MP3 player and FM radio. It is VERY easy to accidentally hit these buttons and interupt your game.

+ The firebuttons are allmost as bad. The entire phone keypad gives you 12 buttons, and every game has chosen a different subset to assign to functions like jump or fire. There are no trigger buttons either.

+ Perhaps the WORST "feature" of the N-Gauge is that the games will come on MMC cards, but -- to insert or remove an MMC card you have to REMOVE the battery of the device. Not only is this extremely awkward, it then forces you to wait 45+ seconds for the phone to boot up. And - I was told at E3 that the N-Gauge currently will reset the clock when you do this, and that this is not likely to be fixed. Imagine - every time you change the game you are playing, you have to reset the clock.... Not good.


I hope this helps to explain my comment on the N-Gauge.


Now, your other questions....

+ I think there is a great future for Bluetooth, and I think you will see it on more and more devices from Palm SG and the other OS licensees. It will come in time when it makes the most sense for the largest base of consumers. Right now most Zire 71 customers wouldn't ever use the feature, and the Tungsten-C was focused on 802.11. I am sure many future devices will have Bluetooth.

+ I would be surprised if you don't see both WiFi and Bluetooth SD cards supporting Palm OS 5.0 - if not directly from Palm SG, certainly from third parties.

+ I can't comment on what sort of devices our licensees might be working on. Sorry.


Hope this answers all your questions....


-chris

[cdunphy]

Yes, but 2 years ago Palm was telling us that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex. Once again "you don't need it until we have it
Now, now, Ed.

Be fair.

2 years ago Palm was telling [you] that anything more than Palm had then was unnecessary and complex given the technology of the time.

I'll agree that Palm stepped over into stagnation; but logic and fairness will recognise that there are consumer benefits from staying a step back from the bleeding edge of technology.

As co-author of the press presentation and tour two years ago - I think I know exactly what Ed is referring to, and he has missed the point entirely.


The presentation was about a "sweet spot" of design that balances price, performance, practicality, and ease of use. To the far left are the cheap and simple devices that don't deliver much actual value, and to the far right are over-priced and over-powered uber-gadgets.

The actual feature definition of the middle of the sweet spot changes with time - as prices drop and technology gets better things that two years ago were off to the right are now square in the middle.

In the press tour, we talked about how every user has their own personal sweet spot that could very easily differ from the average. And every PalmOS licensee and device maker was targeting different spots along the curve - Sony designing for the advanced users on the right, and Palm SG focused on the largest possible mainstream.


One of the examples we gave was MP3 playback. Two years ago, MP3 playback on a PDA was way off to the right and not a very practical feature for MOST users. Memory cards were too small in capacity and too expensive to carry around much music, and batteries and power conservation technology wasn't going to give you much playtime anyway. Also - devices were too expensive and fragile! Not many people felt comfortable taking a $600 PDA to the gym to listen to music while they worked out. Particularly when a cheap $200 MP3 player held more music, lasted longer, sounded better, and was 10x more durable.

So - we said that MP3 playback was out of the sweet spot. Then. And we predicted that it would creep into the sweet spot for PDA's slowly with time. And it has.

We have always said that the Palm OS (and Palm HW) philosophy was to focus on understanding and being at the center of the sweet spot for as many people as possible. It wasn't "you don't need it until we have it" -it was "we won't build it until we can build it right, and deliver it in a way that satisfies the greatest number of users...."

Palm made a very conscious decision NOT to be on the bleeding edge of technology. The original Pilot was a MUCH simpler and less advanced device than the Newton that proceeded it. And that is why it was a huge success, and launched an industry.

It's not about throwing as much technology into a box as is feasible - a large part of good design is restraint and patience. This is something we have always called the Zen of Palm. Think about it.


Some uber-geeks WANT to be on the bleeding edge of technology, practicality be damned. In many ways, I am that sort of geek. And for those uber-geeks, the Pocket PC had a lot to offer. It fit their personal sweet spot.

Fortunately (or unfortunately, for Microsoft) - PalmOS licensees like Sony have been pushing more and more into uber-geek territory, while SG has begun to venture there as well, while mainting the Zire line to focus 100% on the center of the sweet spot.

Meanwhile - the Pocket PC licensees have been focusing on become more and more generic and interchangeable clone makers. I can't imagine many uber-geeks remaining impressed for much longer.

Times, they are changing....

- chris

[drac]

the Pocket PC licensees have been focusing on become more and more generic and interchangeable clone makers. I can't imagine many uber-geeks remaining impressed for much longer.
That's exactly what I've been seeing as an outsider who lurks fairly consistently- over the past few years, the uber-geeks have been:
(1) noting the degree to which Palm has been "catching up";
(2) increasingly accusing PPC of stagnation;
(3) eyeing devices like the Linux PDA's (like the oh-so-pretty SL-760 (http://sharp-world.com/corporate/news/030516.html)) or Sony subnotebooks or the various MicroPC prototypes out there.

[wirelessgeek]

+ I can't comment on what sort of devices our licensees might be working on.

Thanx chris. Although i didn't ask what Palm OS Licensees are upto concerning a WiFi/Bluetooth PDA but "....could we expect a Palm Inc. PDA with both WiFi and Bluetooth in the future?"

It's good to see some market info here not coming from the PPC camp. People need to read more balanced info imho.

I wonder if Palm is still watching Extended Systems Inc. concerning there impressive Server (Enterprise) based sync product and Bluetooth Software. Knowing that both products are used by Palm Inc. They seem to have an impressive customer base and corporate accounts (compared to ThinAirApps for instance) and are doing well in a competitive and bad economic environment. It's still a nice match imho.

Thanx in advance again.

;o)

[wirelessgeek]

Refering at.....

"Life at Palm after the ThinAirApps acquisition was frustrating up until Palm shut down the New York office in March, Pascazio said. "We had Tungsten MIMS Version 1.8 almost out the door," he said. "It was an amazing product. It worked on the Tungsten T with Bluetooth to a GPRS [General Packet Radio Service] phone, worked on the Tungsten C, Tungsten W, et cetera. It had full groupware support for Exchange, Domino, IMAP. They dumped the whole thing." Palm officials said the company's future software plans are based on partnerships with large software companies and carriers, which like to choose their own back-end software.

Explaining why MIMS was nixed, Bradley said in March, "In the enterprise arena, market conditions have caused us to rebalance our areas of emphasis."

Palm will still make client software. Oakes said: "We will continue to develop our own software solutions. But we intend to leverage software partners for most of our back-end, connectivity-oriented solutions."

more
http://www.eweek.com/print_article/0,3668,a=42357,00.asp

eWeek also adds an interesting overview of MS and Palm Middleware strategic moves....

WAVERING ON WIRELESS

Microsoft Corp.
1998 Co-founds Wireless Knowledge Inc.
2000 Announces initial plans for Microsoft Mobile Information Server, which will compete with Wireless Knowledge
2001 Sells off Wireless Knowledge stake
2002 Announces phaseout of MMIS

Palm
Early 2001 Announces plans to buy Extended Systems Inc.; nixes the plans a few months later
Late 2001 Announces acquisition of ThinAirApps
2002 Announces Tungsten line of handhelds and accompanying middleware based on ThinAirApps technology
2003 Reveals that it will not release middleware for Tungsten

[Ed Hansberry]

eWeek also adds an interesting overview of MS and Palm Middleware strategic moves....

WAVERING ON WIRELESS

Microsoft Corp.
1998 Co-founds Wireless Knowledge Inc.
2000 Announces initial plans for Microsoft Mobile Information Server, which will compete with Wireless Knowledge
2001 Sells off Wireless Knowledge stake
2002 Announces phaseout of MMIS

That last one is misleading. MMIS as a standalone product has been phased out - it is now integrated fully into Exchange 2003 eliminating the need for a separate server, a host of configuration issues, etc.