Palm Tungsten C rivals Pocket PC [Archive]

Jason Dunn

04-30-2003, 03:00 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.infoworld.com/article/03/04/26/17NNpalm_1.html' target='_blank'>http://www.infoworld.com/article/03...17NNpalm_1.html</a><br /><br /></div>"Palm is attempting to play catch-up with its Pocket PC OEM rivals and to beat Microsoft's timeline to give it the edge. Next month Palm Solutions Group will ship the Tungsten C, one month earlier than Microsoft's next generation Pocket PC 2003 OS, code-named Ozone. The Tungsten C will be the first Palm handheld with 64MB of memory, built-in IEEE 802.11b, a keyboard, and supposedly a six-hour battery life under full and constant usage with Wi-Fi and the display activated. Its browser will also support JavaScript.<br /><br />But according to sources, Microsoft's Ozone is merely a maintenance upgrade to take care of bugs. It will also offer an improved VPN client and may also include VOIP software. Microsoft will not increase the screen resolution nor provide a landscape mode, which will give the advantage to Palm, according to Todd Kort, principal analyst at Gartner Dataquest in San Jose, Calif. "Microsoft's Mobility Group seems to be putting most of its resources into the Smartphone OS," he said. Kort said Microsoft is concerned that a handheld with too much power could cannibalize sales of laptops or Tablet PCs. "They can make as much as $500 on the sale of a laptop, if you count in Office. When they sell a PDA, it's small beans," said Kort."

DaleReeck

04-30-2003, 03:05 AM

I have to admit, that Tungstun C is pretty cool :) I use an iPaq 5450, but I also have a Treo 300 phone with Palm OS too. If I were looking at a PDA for the first time, the "C" is a worthy contender. That keyboad, like the one on the Treo, is pretty cool.

ombu

04-30-2003, 03:14 AM

Well, seems stronger competition is here, I don't believe MS fears for lap-tops, no way, and I think there's a lot we don't know about PPC 2003, maybe some surprises, if not all that (still growing) market share for PPC is going to blow away.

Regards.

04-30-2003, 03:17 AM

An Axim with a wireless card is still less expensive than a T/C and Palm does not need landscape mode either with a little square screen.

I don't see anything in the new Palms that would make me want to switch back. Sure they have more memory than the old Palms and a better screen, but where is the dual expansion. I happen to like my 1GB CF card and my 256MB SD one.

A better VPN client in the new PPC version will be great, the only thing I can't do with my Axim is get access to my company intranet. Hopefully soon!

I can't believe I'm sitting here defending Microsoft, but the fact is that PPC2002 is rather good and I'm sure that the improvements in PPC2003 will only make it better.

Wait a week or two for new Sonys as well, I'm sure they will reclaim their place at the top of the POS pile.

They can make as much as $500 on the sale of a laptop
I find this hard to believe. Surely an OEM is not paying $500.00 for a Windows and Office license for a single PC?

Paragon

04-30-2003, 03:29 AM

Next month Palm Solutions Group will ship the Tungsten C, one month earlier than Microsoft's next generation Pocket PC 2003 OS, code-named Ozone.

I thought this statement was the prime reason for this post. How else could someone under NDA state that PPC 2003 will be released in June? :)

Dave

freitasm

04-30-2003, 03:29 AM

Yesterday I went to the New Zealand Wireless Data Forum seminar day, and had the chance to play with the new Zire 71 and T|C... 8O The T|C is a pretty nice device.

More memory, XScale 400, thumbboard and Wi-Fi. It's a shame it does not have Bluetooth and/or GSM/GPRS. I think it'd be a great convergence, data centric device!

I'm waiting for a T|W (GSM/GPRS) to review on Geekzone - they'll launch on Vodafone network tomorrow here in New Zealand. But the T|W is only the old Dragonball processor :-(

bdegroodt

04-30-2003, 03:40 AM

04-30-2003, 03:48 AM

[quote=Jason Dunn]

I too, would be gone if that Palm T|C had BT built in...But...No BT. No sale! Get it through your heads hardware folks.

I would still love to have Sony NX Form Factor, PPC 2003, embedded BT and 802.11b, CF and BT slots. I'd find a way to but it today, whatever the cost.

HTK

04-30-2003, 04:00 AM

Kort said Microsoft is concerned that a handheld with too much power could cannibalize sales of laptops or Tablet PCs

This is the kind of stuff that unleashes my dark side and makes me want to see Micro$oft to learn a lesson with Tablet PC´s failing to take off and things like that.
PPC2002 is already small step compared to PPC2000, if PPC 2003 turns out to be PPC 2000-update-number-two I will continue to use my Cassiopeia EM-500 for more time

Foo Fighter

04-30-2003, 04:04 AM

[That about sums up all my fears. [snip] I just hope the PPC is one they stand behind and make it much more than it is today.

This has ALWAY been my fear, and I often post on this subject. I just can't shake the feeling I get that Microsoft doesn't take the PDA market seriously. They've shifted most of their resources towards Smartphone (where MS intends to battle Symbian, potentially its biggest competitor ), and given less attention to PPC than it deserves. From what I've seen/heard, PPC 2003 is going to be let down. I really don't know how to react at this point. Just as I was starting to REALLY like Pocket PC (even more than PalmOS), I'm watching Microsoft drop the ball again. PalmOS is taking the technical lead and making an end run while PPC withers on the vine.

What do we have to look forward to this year? :|

Nellwaskilled

04-30-2003, 04:18 AM

screw the T|C, I want my 'Ozone' NOW!!!

somebody leaks some info already... gah..
come on it's only one month to go...
You'll safe mankind, releaseing all this anxious energy...

(well ok, I tried.. :mrgreen: )

ombu

04-30-2003, 04:21 AM

Just some questions: :?:

What about software? I mean third party developers, I've read here and there PPC 2003 brings new (great) features for developers, not so for end users.

Did you ever know about a developer unhappy with API's and stuff like that? What about a healthy improvement here? Would this lead to better/faster apps?

No, this is not OT, there's Palm OS 5.xx, (there's some 6.0 chatting too) would that bring noticeable changes for s/w? Higher screen res, increased RAM and faster CPU should make room wide enough for new s/w, or present apps on steroids.

Just wonder if this isn't a short term bet, what do you think?

Regards.

Fitch

04-30-2003, 04:27 AM

A better VPN client in the new PPC version will be great, the only thing I can't do with my Axim is get access to my company intranet. Hopefully soon!Better VPN? What VPN client do they have now? The only ones I can find are very much expensive.

Hyperluminal

04-30-2003, 04:47 AM

I really hope PPC2003 is more than just a maintainence upgrade, as PPC2002 was. The only non-maintainence upgrade on the Palmsize Windows CE platform since its release has really been PPC2000, and that was three years ago.

If this is just a maintainence upgrade, I may just have to buy a Sharp Zaurus SL-C700 (http://www.dynamism.com/zaurus/index.shtml) out of spite... :wink:

Foo Fighter

04-30-2003, 04:52 AM

If this is just a maintainence upgrade, I may just have to buy a Sharp Zaurus SL-C700 (http://www.dynamism.com/zaurus/index.shtml) out of spite... :wink:

I wouldn't mind the SL-5500 if the screen were Transflective, and the software improves. But the price needs to come down to around $299 or less.

kaiden.1

04-30-2003, 04:59 AM

Well I'm sure that Microsoft is feeling really good about it's market position right now in the PPC arena that it is focusing on the next big money maker....... THE CELL PHONE! More people have cell phones and are buying cell phones than any other electronic divice. MS wants a piece of that pie. It is a bigger market than the PDA period.

Besides, so MS is not in first position over palm right now, they probably don't care, they are more than likely looking at the long term of it all and "forcasting" that they will over time get there, and with that they are not in a hurry. Why be in a hurry to over seat palm when the forcast shows they will eventually get there in a reasonable time, so with that in mind; MS says it's time to shift our resources to the bigger quest where more volume in shear sales will rack up the most dollars. It's All Buisness Folks!

It's only all of us Geeks here that want to pick up that banner and say "See Palm, I told you so!" Microsoft doesn't have any vendetta over Palm, "WE Do!" They just wanted to get there foot in the door and now that they have and have done well, they can coast for a while and work on other projects.

I am sure that MS is moving on to bigger and better projects of things in the future that they see are coming up that need software. And don't think twice that they will keep a small thing like the PDA market in tip top always ahead of the game shape. For all we know maybe something will come up in the near future that will render the PDA useless, because we will be using some other neat device that will take it's place. And maybe that is the software that they are working on right now that we may not have any clue about?

The skys the limit here you know. I really don't see much more happening in this market too much right now. Smaller and smaller laptops are emerging and we can't just assume that MS's sole purpose in life is to destroy the Palm and be KING! Come on; they got great market share and they just might out do palm in the future, so to them it is time to move onto the next thing that will keep them involved in every market to do with electronics and software.... that is what they are really focusing on. They could really not do anything more with the PDA and still do well. We need to get out of the "We (the PDA Geeks) are the only ones that exist" mentality. And MS must be KING or all else we have failed as PDA Groupies. Let's get real and accept that maybe it might get slow on PDA OS side of things for a while, I mean after all we really don't know? :roll:

whydidnt

04-30-2003, 05:05 AM

I was playing with the Zire71 at Staples last night. Even with the slower ARM processor I was very Impressed by how fast the the thing was. If it had bluetooth I may have bought it. I can't imagine how fast this new Palm will be with the 400 Mhz X-scale in it. There was never even a fraction of a second delay switching between the calendar, addressbook, etc. I have yet to see a PPC that could do that. On the other hand, rumors have it that the Tungsten-C will only have a MONO headphone jack. If that's the case they've killed a large part of their market, since it kills it is an MP3 player. Why would they do that?

However, everytime I think about buying a Palm again I think about one of the primary reasons I switched to PPC... Palm still, even with OS 5 hasn't figured out how to let me have more than about 15 categories. Come On!! Why am I still hamstrung by this ridiculous limit on categories.

Having said all this, I have always believed that the reason Pocket Word and Excel are crippled is that MS didn't want to cut into Desktop/Laptop Office Sales. If the Pocket Apps were full featured and included in a 300-400 Pocket Device, what motivation is there for me to spend another 300-400 just to run those apps on my desktop?

When PPC 2003 is actually released we shall see--- but I would tend to think that MS is never going to give us all we want in a PPC for the very reason the author stated, not wanting to cut into Laptop/Tablet/Smartphone sales.

jimski

04-30-2003, 05:07 AM

Low Cost Formula for Microsoft PPC Success
1. Give the code for Active Sync to anyone 8O who wants it. No questions asked.
2. Independent developers create top notch, trouble free sync software. :D
3. After BETA testing and debugging, Microsoft goes to court and obtains rights to :devilboy: (steals) new Sync Software.
4. PPC sales soar!!! Indepentent developer gets 15 minutes of fame. :oops: Everybody's happy :wink: (except the folks over a Palm).

that_kid

04-30-2003, 05:24 AM

I played with both the zire 71 and T|C and I have to say that it was nice. I too feel that microsoft is dropping the ball big time with ppc. They have soo much of the hardware in place but won't act on it. I was really hoping that ppc 2003 would be a big step for the ppc but I guess that all I have to look forward to is a "Better :roll: " connection mangler and ipsec vpn support. I guess competition is only good when both parties act :really mad:

bdeli

04-30-2003, 05:47 AM

If PPC2003 is going to be more of the same thing I see that Palm will end up with a bigger market share at the end of the year. PPC2000 was a great innovation over Windows CE 2.x - but still - imho - the UI + features & price for PPC models suck. Let alone Activestink....

A lot of people will end up choosing a Palm because of price + features. And I am sure there will be a lot of converts when Palm comes out with a new Tungsten with BT + Wifi + stereo output.

bigkingfun

04-30-2003, 06:27 AM

The new Palm models have a lot of nice features, but I just can't see myself switching back to the Palm OS. I can't put my finger on a particular reason, but I just feel like it is not as powerful as the PPC. I've played with the high end Sonys and Tungsten T a little bit, and for all their new features, the UI is pretty similar to what it's always been. The only thing about the PPC platform that ever frustrates me enough to consider switching back is Activesync.

As far as Microsoft not wanting to cannibalize the notebook or smartphone market, I can understand that. Realistically, if I could have everything in the PPC that I would wish for, I wouldn't need a notebook. I don't know if Microsoft makes $500 or even half that on the oem licenses for notebooks, but they do gain a user who will more than likely pay for at least one upgrade for both Windows and Office at some point in the future. Most PPC users upgrade the hardware and get any new version that way. With the PDA market, Microsoft will be hard pressed to get any revenue stream that isn't tied to an oem license with the hardware.

marlof

04-30-2003, 07:20 AM

The feature set on the Palm might be impressive, and I'm happy I have one that syncs to my iBook beautifully, but what concerns me is their lack of multitasking support. Try doing some PIM related tasks when downloading e-mail messages over a GPRS connection. Until true multitasking is possible in a Palm OS device, I could never make a 100% switch, since I like to do multiple things at the same time.

ethancaine

04-30-2003, 08:23 AM

Personally, I love PPC2002, the Axim, and ActiveSync. I'm not saying that any of them are perfect, but the fit my style and usage perfectly. One of my biggest complaints about POS was lack of inherant Windows compatability. PPC2002 has everything I need from it (except .ppt support) and it gives me the 'feel' of having my trusty PC with me at all times.

The only thing I found inherant about POS was simplicity. My Paln IIIxe always felt more like a wallet attachment than a PC accessory. My experience with Palm OS devices (tried, borrowed, and owned) is summed up in my signature.

:soapbox: <steps down>

ojlittle

04-30-2003, 09:22 AM

I bought the Tungsten C a couple of days ago to give it a shot. Everything works great & it's fast as all hell. The screen is great & it comes with some good appz. However, I can't get the unit to log onto the net using wi-fi. It finds my network, shows a strong signal, but won't log on. So, it's going back. If it worked I'd probably keep it. Too bad Palm.

IpaqMan2

04-30-2003, 09:45 AM

Does anyone remember the last CEO Palm had... (don't remember his name), but he was blamed for Palms financial problems around 2 years ago?

I remember the big thing on his mind was making a palm that could recieve and send your email wireless. This was such an important step in his mind that Palm should release a PDA that does this. I also remember thinking right around the time with with PPCs catching with it's popularity being able to do things that Palm couldn't ever dream to do at the time that Palm was going in the wrong direction. Sure a wireless Palm is nice, but in the mass population of those who bought Palms I felt many of them wanted to do the things that PPCs were already doing at the time, with their color screens, better resolution, memory expantions, playing MP3s, faster processor, wirless LAN access, (kinda sounds like some Palms that are out today, doesn't) and so on, and so on. But yet that last CEO seemed content with the Palm OS as it was and adding those features he thought would be so important.

So my thoughts, will history repeat it's self again?

I have always felt that MS never really was trying with the PPCs. I have even read rumors that Gates himself really doesn't see PPCs as a very profitable and mainstream product for his company to lose any sleep over. Sure MS has thrown tens of millions into the PPC division but MS has also thrown tens of millions into their MSN ISP services which has never made a profit (let alone break even, except maybe this year) since the time it began back in 95, as well as a bunch of other "projects" they have going on at any one time. MS can afford to throw their money around and loose a 100 million and not really worry too much about it.

With that being said, I am disappiont with what I have heard with the PPC 2003. I know the details aren't out yet, but MS never had secrecy like Apple does with thier new products and services. the PPC 2003 being called just a minor upgrade sounds right. Including a better VPN client is important and adding VoIP is great, but to the mass consumers in over all who buy the PPCs, these new functions will be just as useless as Palms PDa that did wireless email. Sure it was great.. but look how soon it flopped.

If I had to guess, I would think many if not most PPCs owners would welcome some new innovations to their PPCs. A larger screen with more pixels, built in WiFi & Bluetooth to be standards on all PPCs, Optimize the OS to work with faster processors, Built in keyboardlike the new Palms or even like the Linux PDA (which I'd prefer) maybe encourage OEMs to break away from the same freaking form factor that ever gosh darn PPC OEM releases, adding a camera, real freaking Win CE or PPC Office tools, redesigning or using something better than Active Sync, Better intergration with Outlook, native support for landscape mode, Am I asking for too much? I have been using my Clie -NR70v for for about a year now and I welcomed all the changes Palm has made (even though I know their OS still sucks). I have been waiting for PPCs ever since than to do something inovative, new, and different. Saddly, besides the smallness in size of the new PPCs commig out now which is almost the only reason I need to buy another PPC with in it's self, i still feel like I am waiting just as much now as I was waiting the day I started using my clie. I hope I will be wrong with the release of PPC 2003.

acollet

04-30-2003, 11:50 AM

I just purchased the Tungsten|C. I have used the iPAQ 5455 as my main PDA for some time, but the Tungsten|C has potential toreplace my iPAQ as my primary PDA. The reason is batterylife and size. With the Tungsten, I can be out all day and night and never wory about the battery, even using Wi-Fi. After3 days, Wi-Fi has shown no bugs with memory or anything. just works. Fast! this unit is Fast! pages load much faster on the Tungsten|C vs the iPAQ 5455. I really like the the PocketPC platfrom for its customization and there is one program inparticular (Laridian Pocket Bible) thatI cannt live w/out nor can I find an equivelant feature wise on the Palm. But for a long day away from power, I'll be taking the Tungsten |C

markph

04-30-2003, 12:15 PM

"Microsoft's Mobility Group seems to be putting most of its resources into the Smartphone OS," he said. Kort said Microsoft is concerned that a handheld with too much power could cannibalize sales of laptops or Tablet PCs. "They can make as much as $500 on the sale of a laptop, if you count in Office. When they sell a PDA, it's small beans," said Kort."

That's interesting, something I hadn't considered. The tablet is very nice, but still I would opt for a more innovative solution, that could be kept smaller. Where are those paper thin organic "LCD" screens??? :)

roberto_torres

04-30-2003, 12:21 PM

Well, I just read in an article that the lower speed (144Mhz) Zire 71 can run movies at 165 fps and a resolution of 320x320. This tungsten at 400mhz must be a beast. 8O

I just hope Microsoft does something to improove PPC OS speed. At 200Mhz on my Ipaq 1910 movies run at 20 fps max at a resolution of 240x180. :cry:

Nellwaskilled

04-30-2003, 12:34 PM

are you some sort of parrot r_t?

didn't you post the exact same thing in 'just chatting' forum?
http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=11875&sid=96e1e4899cd6ee898bcfc3d25b7bb99c

alcdroid

04-30-2003, 12:45 PM

Well, I just read in an article that the lower speed (144Mhz) Zire 71 can run movies at 165 fps and a resolution of 320x320. This tungsten at 400mhz must be a beast.

In that same thread, they also mentioned that the 165fps is via kinoma player format encoded with no sound. Then again, I have not seen it for myself, so I am skeptical. Maybe if they want to compare frame rates, they should try running mpeg files.

I am not quite that hot about playing movies on POS devices simply because the screen is too small. While the resolution is better than that of PPCs, screen real estate is another matter. I like viewing pictures and videos on landscape mode and the larger screen makes viewing easier on the eyes. With the exception of Sony's NR, NX, and NZ series, i have to squint to look at pictures on POS devices.

That said, I like the way Palm is finally stepping up with the two new handhelds and competetion is always good for the consumer. I just hope that M$ does not decide to leave PPC owners in the dust by not providing significant upgrades for the PPCOS.

Cheers!

Cypher

04-30-2003, 01:43 PM

The new Palm models have a lot of nice features, but I just can't see myself switching back to the Palm OS. I can't put my finger on a particular reason, but I just feel like it is not as powerful as the PPC.

The feature set on the Palm might be impressive, and I'm happy I have one that syncs to my iBook beautifully, but what concerns me is their lack of multitasking support.

This is pretty much where my thinking falls. I'm a multi-tasker... even on my PPC. If I can't load up 3 or 4 (OK, 6 or 7 :)) applications and switch between them, retaining work in progress, I get a little peevish. The Palm's "multi-tasking" is so rudimentary as to be useless for me, even with the "hacks" available.

There's a lot of stuff, just below the surface (and it's all been written up in various articles) that make PPC2K3 more than just a "bug fix." Albeit, many of these things are aimed at enterprise markets, but who'da thought WiFi would be anything but enterprise when it first hit?

Bob Anderson

04-30-2003, 02:18 PM

There's a lot of stuff, just below the surface (and it's all been written up in various articles) that make PPC2K3 more than just a "bug fix." Albeit, many of these things are aimed at enterprise markets, but who'da thought WiFi would be anything but enterprise when it first hit?

When I stumbled across the InfoWorld article that Jason posted about, my first thought was, "oh, great... 'just a bug fix'... but then I thought about it for a while. My thoughts center around two concepts:

1. Haven't we all been griping about the fact that active stink is in terrible need of improvement? ... and

2. Isn't there enough other annoyances (my pet peeve: connection mangler a/k/a connection manager) that need to be addressed?

We've seen postings that seem to indicate that the O/S is being optimized for xscale processors, AND Windows Media 9 is being included... so my initial take is that what one person says is a "bug fix" may be a end user's wish come true: fix what needs to be fixed while keeping the best going forward (and in a sense this also points out the fact that all of us with PPC 2002 equipment should be able to upgrade -- since there's no major architectural changes. As an aside, could you imagine the outcry if MSFT had leaked that Ozone wouldn't be compatible with existing hardware/software?)

So, let's all mark our calendars for June... It promises to be an interesting summer this year!

mscdex

04-30-2003, 03:05 PM

ux4484

04-30-2003, 03:22 PM

I find this hard to believe. Surely an OEM is not paying $500.00 for a Windows and Office license for a single PC?

Depends on their purchasing agreement with MS, no?
As I understand......Vendors that supply full CD versions of WinXP and OfficeXP pay more for the license than vendors that supply restore CD's for the OS and apps, who pay more than vendors that have the OS/office image on the hard drive only.

I've felt all along that MS certainly cripples PPC to protect it's laptop (and now tablet) license's. I think it's a real kick in the butt to them that the processing power/memory on new PPC devices has caught up to handling the OS's (relatively) large footprint and apps quite well.
It does enough to make it worth it (to buy) over most high end Palms, but not a heck of a lot more.

So now the crunch is on, MS sees the freeware/shareware market for PPC going along VERY similar lines of Palm.....a lot of those dollars that were promised to developers for jumping on the PPC boat are drying up for small single use apps and tweaks. BTW, How bout we call PPC OS-enhancing applications "hacks" now, so we all use the same terminology?....I mean, c'mon, WisBar (and the like) is nothing but a few good hacks. Much like Palm (now): How much time/money does MS want to spend fixing usability issues when the freeware/shareware developers are providing tweaks/hacks at no cost to them?

Don't get me wrong, I like my Axim, I even now like the platform (for the most part). While I (and most here) can use it for a laptop replacement, most of the general public is not up to the learning curve (and time investment) challenge of doing so.
Microsoft not only knows that, they're counting on it. The geek/IT crowd HAS and WILL keep them a major contender in the market for an all-in-one solution.......why do ANY marketing?
Honestly, I would not be surprised if PPC 2003 has a larger footprint and runs slower/uses more resources than the current version, with maybe a few usability tweaks. Anything more than that, I'll be genuinely impressed by.

The handheld market seems to be tapering off, not a good time to shoot yourself in the foot by making your PPC license comparable in function to your "real" OS license.

While I think it's good that Palm has finally woke up concerning processing power and memory (at least with the T|C), the price is still way too high given the functionality (and multitasking) can be had for less with the less expensive PPC devices (what a turn around THAT is!) available.

Let me think......new better (but overpriced) Palms......lackluster PPC OS update.......certainly questionable economy.........equals........at least two or more quarters of Handheld sales sagging (though I think Dell will soon start cutting into HP's numbers).

Sven Johannsen

04-30-2003, 03:23 PM

Kort said Microsoft is concerned that a handheld with too much power could cannibalize sales of laptops or Tablet PCs. "They can make as much as $500 on the sale of a laptop, if you count in Office. When they sell a PDA, it's small beans," said Kort."

Interesting comment, but I think the reasoning may be a little different. I don't think that the PPC or any PDA will cut into laptop sales significantly, but think about the fact that MS doesn't sell either, they sell software. How many of you have bought a single piece of additional software, for your PPC, from MS? They don't even sell but a game pack or two. Even the OS upgrade (though purchased by the OEM from MS) is sold to you by the OEM. Now think about your desktop and laptop. How much MS software have you added to it, including OS updates, Office Products, Games, development environments........

I would think you could leverage additional income from PPC sales by making a compelling argument that a PPC works best if you have MS software on your desktop, or in your enterprise. It seems the enterprise connectivity issue is being addressed with MIS being integrated into Exchange 2003, the expected VPN experience improvements, and other such updates. I'm not sure the argument is compelling for the individual with the sync issues and the limited support for Office document formats. For the record, it does appear that the sync problems are tied a great deal to USB issues. Those with a WiFi connection seem to have a lot less trouble once it is set up. Again, more of an enterprise solution. (At least it was, it is much more mainstream than even two years ago).

I have never quite understood how MS will make money selling PPC OS images to OEMs. I would think there would need to be something about them that makes you buy other things from MS. (Maybe it is a conspiracy to try and get Mac users to switch, so they can sync their PPCs :lol: )

Disclaimer: These are my thoughts. If they were any one elses, I wouldn't be allowed to submit them.

PapaSmurfDan

04-30-2003, 04:28 PM

While I like my Axim, Palm is on the right track to have me switch over to them if Sony or Palm ever release a device I like. If there was a T|C like device with stereo headphone jack and virtual grafitti (Hint to Sony and Palm, people want this so make an <u>affordable</u> device with it!), I would upgrade to that when my Axim dies. My two cents on the Zire71 is that it is a 6months to a year late. If the Z71 was out when I was PDA shopping, I would have that over my Axim. But there is one thing that I am fearful of these new Palms. No one has mentioned that any of these uber-palms are going to be upgradable to POS6. This is a very justified fear when one plops $500 into a PDA.

Like people have mentioned in the past, POS5 is just a stepping stone to POS6, which I think will finally bring real compitition to PPC's if they actully address the major issues (Add in a File System, Multitask,etc). If Palm/Sony handles this right and offers all of thier POS5 devices with free upgrades to POS6, they finally get on top of MS. However, if they make it a hassle, hard to upgrade, or don't adderss any major issues with POS, MS will still have the ball in their court (MS can screw up royally and we accept it just because its MS).

Apple, just release a new Newton running OSX and call it an iPad :P

-Dan

racerx

04-30-2003, 04:49 PM

The new Palm models have a lot of nice features, but I just can't see myself switching back to the Palm OS. I can't put my finger on a particular reason, but I just feel like it is not as powerful as the PPC.

I can tell you what the issue for me is. PPC is multi-tasking. I have a Treo 300 I won in a contest (wouldn't have bought it otherwise, being PalmOS and all). As a smart phone/communicator goes, it is actually a very good device. It has two things going against it. 1) Only runs one app at a time. I can't have my IM program running in the background while I surf the net - very annoying. 2) Screen sucks - like all of the other PPC2k devices other than the iPAQ, the damn thing is nearly useless outside unless you get the angle just right.

But I do like having one device that can handle SOME of my needs - Voice and Data communications, unlimited bandwidth (Sprint Vision), calendar and contacts always with me make it a very handy device. But for me, the reality is that Palm still has a LONG way to go, even with the new OSes, before it will catch up to what I can do with the PPC. I generally run Pocket Informant, Franklin Covey's PlanPlus Task List, PIE (generally two web sessions) and maybe MSN Mess. ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Show me a Palm device that can do THAT.

klinux

04-30-2003, 05:50 PM

rlobrecht

04-30-2003, 06:01 PM

Does anybody else see the humor in calling a Palm Operating System device a POS device?

BTS

04-30-2003, 06:18 PM

This is pretty much where my thinking falls. I'm a multi-tasker... even on my PPC. If I can't load up 3 or 4 (OK, 6 or 7 :)) applications and switch between them, retaining work in progress, I get a little peevish. The Palm's "multi-tasking" is so rudimentary as to be useless for me, even with the "hacks" available.

I experienced this last night. I'm at a meeting using a Handera 330. I was switching between the date book and notepad. Each time I would switch back to the date book it would take me to the current day, not the day in late may that I was working on. I never have this problem with my Casio because it is multitasking.

On the other hand these new Palm units just scream in speed. Moving from screen to screen is instantaneous. I would seriously love it if PPC 2003 (or whatever the name du jour is) optimized this OS to run fast on the new PPCs. If I had Palm's speed on a PPC I would toss my Palm tomorrow.

GO-TRIBE

04-30-2003, 06:27 PM

PPC 2003 is a maintenance release

I'm sorry, but IMHO you folks are either reading different things than I am, or you do not understand the technological difference between Windows CE 3 and Windows CE .NET 4.2. The foundation of PPC 2003 is now CE 4.2 (v. 3.0 for 2000 and 2002). This is a HUGE technological jump and I think you'll see major platform advancement from both Microsoft and third parties in very short order. Maintenance releases do not include major advancements and changes in the core OS components.

Examples:
Windows 98 v. ME Maintenance Release
Windows NT v. 2000 Major Upgrade
:!:

Jonathan1

04-30-2003, 07:05 PM

Janak Parekh

04-30-2003, 07:16 PM

2) Screen sucks - like all of the other PPC2k devices other than the iPAQ, the damn thing is nearly useless outside unless you get the angle just right.
Are you sure about that? My Dell Axim is perfect outside and I judge its screen to be better than that of the iPaq.
He's talking about the Treo, and comparing it to the old Pocket PC 2000 devices (like the J548 and the E125). All of these had transmissive screens that can't be viewed in direct sunlight.

--janak

bdegroodt

04-30-2003, 10:35 PM

A few months ago when all the WiFi/HotSpot news was coming out I asked around to see if anyone that purchased a WiFi enabled PPC was getting any special coupons or deals to entice them to try the service. Nobody responded that they were.

It seems Palm gets a check mark/gold star for this one as well:

When you order the Palm Tungsten C handheld, you can also sign up for a free 30-day trial of Wi-Fi (and wired) Internet access, compliments of Wayport. Wayport is the leading provider of high-speed Internet access in more than 525 hotels and 10 airports nationwide. With Wayport and your Tungsten C handheld, you'll be able to stay in touch and on top of things whenever you're out and about

cmorris

04-30-2003, 11:09 PM

I'm sorry, but IMHO you folks are either reading different things than I am, or you do not understand the technological difference between Windows CE 3 and Windows CE .NET 4.2. The foundation of PPC 2003 is now CE 4.2 (v. 3.0 for 2000 and 2002).

GO-TRIBE where is it stated that this is a proven fact at this point? Not trying to be pissy just trying to get some solid facts. AFAIK there isn't anything even remotely official that states that 4.2 is being used. :?:

Not sure what your level of "solid" fact is, but there are some pretty good indications. Check out the thread at:

http://discussion.brighthand.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=77999

The feature listing on pocketpcitalia looks pretty realistic, and there are certainly more people out there willing to state that it is based on 4.2 than otherwise. 8)

Abba Zabba

05-01-2003, 08:05 AM

wirelessgeek

05-01-2003, 10:25 AM

When they sell a PDA, it's small beans," said Kort."

That about sums up all my fears. Looking at the numbers we saw last week about mobile devices and clearly a confusion by consumers about SmartPhone vs PPC vs Tablet vs laptop, MSFT is going to have to pick their battles. I just hope the PPC is one they stand behind and make it much more than it is today. I'm not expecting much for PPC 2003 based upon what I've seen, but I'll hold off a few extra weeks before making my next purchase...Just in case.

I too, would be gone if that Palm T|C had BT built in...But...No BT. No sale! Get it through your heads hardware folks.

Brighthand Review on Tungsten C: "Bluetooth There is an area of wireless networking where this model has a gaping hole: Bluetooth. As a machine designed for business use, Palm should have realized that business people want to be able to check their email away from the office. The best way to do this is to connect to a Bluetooth-enabled mobile phone. The Tungsten C should have included built-in Bluetooth. Even worse, there are currently no drivers for the Bluetooth SD card Palm sells. The company needs to get those drivers out as soon as possible and seriously consider adding Bluetooth to its next Tungsten model."
http://www.brighthand.com/article/Palm_Tungsten_C_Review

-Microsoft brings web services and Bluetooth into cars.
-Sprint becomes first carrier in US to offer CDMA mobile with Bluetooth.
http://www.geekzone.co.nz/

Verizon next?

Hands-free cell phones: "When you're behind the wheel of a car, it's important to remember that safety is your most important priority," said Macy Bodenhamer with Verizon Wireless."
http://www.news8austin.com/content/headlines/?ArID=69755&SecID=2

This guy must be joking. Why are AT&T, T Mobile, Cingular offering Bluetooth services (BT Phones, Headsets) and Verizon doesn't mister Bodenhamer? Wake up snoozers!!!!!!!!

Time will tell i think.

Jonathan1

05-01-2003, 03:34 PM

From reading everyones thoughts I think we're being kind of harsh. No one here (besides JAson) knows for sure what is going to be in the next PPC OS. For all we know this could be just a small upgrade or it could be the dawn of changes coming to the PPC market.

For all the B**ing thats been going on here I think it's time we al stop and think about why we switched to the PPC :wink: . Lets not forget about the limited abilities of most Palm devices and realize that we posess some (depending on hardware) of the most capable devices today :twisted:

</end rant>

Just because the Pocket PC is still technologically superior to Palm's OS in many ways doesn't give MS, or anyone else for that matter, the right to sit back and pat themselves on the back. Well OK they can do a little patting but there is a heck of a ways to go in the development of the PPC IMHO. I've stated this before and will again. The current Pocket PC OS\system software is the equivalent to Windows 9x. I and I'm guessing the rest of the community is looking for the equivalent of Windows 2000 in the Pocket PC world. To date this has yet to materialize.

I liken the original Pocket PC 2000 system to Windows 95. It was a dramatic jump from Windows CE 2.11 and the Palm Sized PC. Pocket PC 2002 was Windows 98. Bug fixes and a splash of paint. It was good. Could have been better. Pocket PC 2003. :?: To be honest I don't have the foggiest as to what to make out of it. It has the underpinning of a new OS 4.2 but from the rumors the Pocket PC portion of the OS isn't all that different from what we have now which makes me think comparing this to the Windows desktop world it would be a mix breed between Windows ME and 2000. I can understand MS’s gradual progression here. Just getting the core OS updated to 4.2 is a tremendous job however I hope they did more then just slap the new CE 4.2 system in there. I truly hope they refined memory management because in 2000/2 it sucks badly.

PS- Also I don't believe in a OS ever being "good enough". No such thing Forward progression on a OS is critical to keep it from becoming stale tech and the Pocket PC is starting to smell a tad pungent.

huangzhinong

05-01-2003, 04:43 PM

I agree. The most important reason I switched to PPC before is because Palm OS stay dead for 6 years!!!.

Today I bought a Palm zire, the reason is the same: Pocket PC OS is almost being still for more than 3 years now, another "Palm OS".

EvilOne

05-01-2003, 04:53 PM

bdegroodt

05-01-2003, 05:08 PM

From reading everyones thoughts I think we're being kind of harsh.

I don't think so, I just think it is how everyone views Microsoft about how they are handling the PDA market. Come on, no major changes in much of anything for the last few years. I just hope that the next OS will have some fixes and some enhancements and not just be some bloatware release that will be a big disappointment.

Agree. We're talking about an OS that is almost 4 years old with no significant advances beyond fixes and a few tweaks. It's the nature of our group though to expect more more more. I bet there's over a 100 different major advances in the OS MSFT could work on from this group alone.

This is getting interesting though. As you watch MSFT with $40 Billion in cash in a market that means little to them versus Palm with a fraction of the resources and a market that means everything to them. Dare I say bloated versus nimble?

shindullin

05-01-2003, 07:06 PM

Angry part:
What M$ is forgetting is that not only do people who buy cutting edge technology like to keep buying more cutting edge technology but we're the ones to buy other technology as well as help others make their own purchasing decisions. People at work ask me for advise on laptops, digital cameras, and yes, types of PDA's to get. Until the last few weeks I have always suggested PPC's. The last person who asked me, two weeks ago was sent to a Palm device (T|T). I myself was ready to plunk another $500+ on a new PPC this summer but may now have to wait to see how the new systems compare with whatever Palm comes up with. If I go with Palm there will be a lot more Palm buyers in my office over the next few years.

freitasm

05-01-2003, 10:39 PM

Unreal32

05-02-2003, 12:41 PM

What about these rumours about a new Tungsten W2 (same as W, but 400MHz, 64MB and OS 5.2)? http://www.geekzone.co.nz/content.asp?contentid=792. Just found about this today, and it's on BrightHand and a French site.

If they do release a Palm T|W2 with GSM, BT, Wi-Fi XScale 400... 8O

Still not perfect, unless it includes a stereo plug, can do multiple categories like the PPC, and can do true multitasking. <sigh>

The perfect Palm in my opinion, and one that would get me to switch camps:
1. Integrated keyboard a la Tungsten C
2. Integrated WiFi (I don't need BT, but that'd be good too)
3. 64 MB minimum
4. OS 5.2 or higher
5. 400 mhz or higher
6. Can synch multiple categories
7. Can multitask
8. Stereo plug
9. SD slot
10. Virtual graffiti/SIP panel
11. Oh yeah, and that Zire 71's camera built in would be nice.
12. 10+ hours of battery life (and still be normal form factor... not 16 oz.)

I'd pay almost anything they'd charge, if they could produce this. I think others would, too.

GO-TRIBE

05-02-2003, 10:22 PM

I'm sorry, but IMHO you folks are either reading different things than I am, or you do not understand the technological difference between Windows CE 3 and Windows CE .NET 4.2. The foundation of PPC 2003 is now CE 4.2 (v. 3.0 for 2000 and 2002).

GO-TRIBE where is it stated that this is a proven fact at this point? Not trying to be pissy just trying to get some solid facts. AFAIK there isn't anything even remotely official that states that 4.2 is being used. :?:

Host: Mark (Microsoft)
Q: Are the any Pocket-PC devices already using Windows CE .NET 4.x?

A: (adding to Chris's answer) Not right now, Pocket PC 2003 will be based on 4.2. The Pocket PC 2000 and 2002 are supported by .NetCF though.

You can read it here from the horse's mouth:
http://msdn.microsoft.com/chats/embedded/embedded_022603.asp

kaiden.1

05-03-2003, 01:18 AM

Well I just went out and looked at the new Palm/TC. WOW WOWO WOWOW! Is right. The screen nearly jumps out at you and the internet connection is wicked! 8O I just about got one.

I have a toshiba now but if it had a MP3 with stereo, I know I would have shelled it out last night for sure.

I am literally floored and very impressed! Great Job Palm! 8O

bdeli

05-03-2003, 01:31 AM

...I know I would have shelled it out last night for sure.

Just trying to hold onto my Tungsten | T I got last month....if it had stereo output and BT I would get one!

Jason Dunn

05-03-2003, 01:34 AM

What is this, a Palm love-fest? :roll: Shoo Palm lovers, shoo! Go visit another site please... :lol:

bdegroodt

05-03-2003, 07:22 PM

Put my paws on both of these today. Wow! Please please please PPC Gods grant us a screen with such clarity and a keyboard like the T|C. I promise to never complain about anything ever again. :mrgreen:

I was really surprised by the sturdiness of both units, but especially the sliding camera on the Zire. I expected cheap and it's far from it. Very solid. The T|C keyboard is by far the most impressive keyboard of any device (BB, Treo, add on thumb boards) that I have seen. Very well spread out and excellent tactile feedback.

Your move PPC.

Hyperluminal

05-06-2003, 03:02 AM

Yeah, what really annoys me is that Palm "resting on their laurels" (read: not doing anything) is part of the reason that PPC got where it is today. Palm just stayed stagnant, releasing only minor hardware and software updates, while PPC revolutionized the PDA concept. Thus, many people bought PPCs, while less bought Palm.
Now the PPC companies, and MS, are resting on their laurels, while Palm seemed to have learned their lesson and are innovating like crazy. Just look at Sony, they're trying out one idea after the next. They're not playing it safe, so to speak, by releasing the same devices with slight modifications. They're pioneering many innovations, including the thumbboard (I know, RIM had it first), camera, hi-res screen, flipscreen, integrated 2MP camera, etc.. Just as an example, look at the NZ90. I think it's a very bad idea. It's big, expensive, and you could just buy a mini 2MP camera and PDA for less money. But they're experimenting. They want to see if it works-- if people like it. Rather than producing constant, safe designs that don't go anywhere, they're innovating at full force. And I respect that. They greatly improved the PDA market for it. Think about it; since April 19, 2000, what feature was pioneered on the Pocket PC platform that changed PDAs? Or made them better? Or easier to use? There are BT and (integrated) WiFi, but that's pretty much it.
The differences between my old iPaq 3630 and a 5455 are numerous, but not even on the order of magnitude of the difference between my Casio E100 and my 3630. And they were only about a year apart, not 3.
One thing I really liked about my 3630 was the feeling on bold, daring innovation you got by looking at it. They abondoned a lot of conventional wisdom to make that thing, and it revolutionized the industry. You just don't get that feeling anymore by holding a Pocket PC. Palms, especially Sonys, seem to convey that feeling. Sony seems to be getting a lot of the market, and they deserve it. They innovated, and now Palm Inc. is too.