Linux Help Wanted

[Andy Sjostrom]

Do you believe in Linux? Does Linux have a role to play in the mobile devices market? Does Linux already play a role? Do you have any knowledge about or experience in Linux in PDAs? Is this a subject that you are interested in? If so, then I could use your help in my gathering of strategic intelligence! I have spent time learning about Linux in PDAs at sites such as <a href="http://www.linuxdevices.com">LinuxDevices.com</a>, <a href="http://palmtops.about.com/cs/linuxforpda/index.htm">Linux for PDA (About.com)</a>, <a href="http://www.linuxdailynews.net/modules.php?name=News&new_topic=35">Embedded Linux (LinuxDailyNews)</a>, <a href="http://www.handhelds.org/">handhelds.org</a>, <a href="http://www.trolltech.com/">TROLLTECH</a> and so on. I have learned that the Linux movement is marching fast into this market and might very well become an equally tough competitor as Symbian.<br /><br />I am looking for a couple of thinkers and Linux experts to discuss more about this. If you are interested, please drop me a line at "andy at businessanyplace.net"!

[ExtremeSIMS]

One thing the Linux-based PDAs do not have is a slick, polished feel. Aesthetics are important, so that's one key place for improvement.

[bdegroodt]

One thing the Linux-based PDAs do not have is a slick, polished feel. Aesthetics are important, so that's one key place for improvement.

Patrick, do you mean the operating system on the pda or the physical appearance of the device itself?

[wizardmaster2k]

i want linux on my dell. linux is such a nice o/s. it ran great on both mine and my friends ipaq's 3635's.

[Andy Sjostrom]

i want linux on my dell. linux is such a nice o/s. it ran great on both mine and my friends ipaq's 3635's.


What Linux version and GUI did you use?

[bdegroodt]

Assuming you've read the early works on this topic Andy...If not, here you go (http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/06/01/linux_ipaq.html)

[Joff]

Hi Andy,

I am wondering about your motivations behind this? I think you have good relations with Microsoft, could that be the reason? Are you trying to evaluate how much of a threat Linux can be to MS on the PDA market?

I don't mean any offense here :wink:

[markph]

One thing the Linux-based PDAs do not have is a slick, polished feel. Aesthetics are important, so that's one key place for improvement.

8O What??? I agree with you aesthetics ARE important...

http://www.trolltech.com/screenshots/qtopia.html?cid=6

Even this TrollTech based solution pivots the screen from potrait to landscape, something MS still has not incorporated.

I'd be willing to bet as MS begins charging developers and companies for embedded tools/licensing fees, the industry will find themselves taking a closer look at linux on embedded devices.

:)

BTW...I ran linux and qtopia on my IPAQ for several months. I even attempted to get my company (who I programmed wireless scanners for) to run linux. The only thing stopping us? I needed more time to create the barcode scanner driver and somehow get Symbol to release the spec to me. Vendor support!

Mark

[mscdex]

I ran Familiar with OPIE on my ipaq 3635 awhile back. The reason I went back to CE is because of Familiar's lack of power management support and decent stowaway driver support (driver had problems in which the driver would have to be reloaded after coming out of "sleep" mode, you couldn't use the keyboard (so frustrating! :roll:).

[sponge]

All of that is not a problem now - I ran Familiar 0.7 RC1 on my 3900 and all of it worked flawlessly. Many people use the Stowaway, so I have a feeling that's fixed.

As for the OS, it's much more pleasing to look at than WinCE ever was. As for the devices, I don't know.

[mscdex]

All of that is not a problem now - I ran Familiar 0.7 RC1 on my 3900 and all of it worked flawlessly. Many people use the Stowaway, so I have a feeling that's fixed.

As for the OS, it's much more pleasing to look at than WinCE ever was. As for the devices, I don't know.

Still have to wait until power management is up there with WinCE though.... :roll:

[midtoad]

While the Compaq iPaq may have gotten some publicity for its Linux efforts, there are likely far more Sharp Zaurus PDAs out there. They run Linux (a version of debian) natively, and don´t require that the user buy Windows CE with their PDA.

There are a number of forums available for users, like http://www.zaurus.com/dev or http://www.zaurii.net, and there is software available at a number of places like Handango, or http://zsi.stonekeep.com/

Since Linux is open, and many tools are available, users can contribute by porting applications from desktop Linux distributions down to the Zaurus. Since the Zaurus has a real file system, no file conversions are required to transfer files to and from th desktop. This could be one of the platform´s hidden advantages.

cheers
Stewart in Calgary
Compaq Aero, Palm Tungsten, and now Sharp Zaurus 5500

[ctmagnus]

there are likely far more Sharp Zaurus PDAs out there. They run Linux natively.

Zaurus = #3 on my shopping list, after a sweet notebook and a top-of-the-line (at the time of purchase) iPaq.

[Andy Sjostrom]

Assuming you've read the early works on this topic Andy...If not, here you go (http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/06/01/linux_ipaq.html)

Thanks! This is a good background article!

[Andy Sjostrom]

Hi Andy,

I am wondering about your motivations behind this? I think you have good relations with Microsoft, could that be the reason? Are you trying to evaluate how much of a threat Linux can be to MS on the PDA market?

I don't mean any offense here :wink:

Good question. A part of the answer relates to the name of this site! I am thinking, analyzing, trying to understand. The players on the market, positioning, yes -- the battle, interest me.

I am evaluating how much of a role Linux can play in this market. So far, we have discussed Palm OS and Symbian, but Linux is hardly ever mentioned. Seeing how Linux makes way on the desktop and servers, this makes me curious: why doesn't this happen in handhelds. Or will it?

See! So much interesting to think about! 8)

[sfjlittel]

Assuming you've read the early works on this topic Andy...If not, here you go (http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/06/01/linux_ipaq.html)

Thanks! This is a good background article!

Although the article is nice, it is a little out of date (almost/more than two years, I am not sure).
As many people know, linux evolves quite fast, and the article doesn´t really represent the present day familiar.
There are different and improved GUI´s available:
The best GUI I have seen now is OPIE (an enhanced version of QPE), which provides a "slick, polished feel", standard pim: contacts, calendar, today screen replacement with stock ticker and weather forecast, and is compatible with QPE, and most software available on the Zaurus.
Another option is GPE, that runs on X and is compatible with a lot of products that run on X, but the limitations are in the hardware (screen, diskspace etc.).
Unforutunately the pocketlinux project is dead.

Really good places for information are the mailinglists: http://www.handhelds.org/email_lists.html , like the familiar one and the opie one.

[wocket]

I went out and bought a Sharp Zaurus 5500 last year. I've recently replaced the Sharp build with the www.openzaurus.org build based on the debian embedded distro with Opie gui. Much better enviroment for development work and it looks pretty too.

You can code C, HTML, PHP, Perl, Python, sql etc.

Have a look at http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/ in the development section. Better still look in the emulator section (Mac emulator :) )

The zaurus forums are also a good place to look around http://www.zaurus.com/dev/board/

The Zaurus also has a slide down keyboard which is a bonus when keying in and somthing I would like on the pocketpc.

I Had thought of replacing the rom in my iPAQ 8350 in the past but then opted for the Zaurus instead as it had come down a lot in price. Plus the fact I love my iPAQ the way it is :) .

[Andy Sjostrom]

So consider me a beginner. I have an iPAQ waiting to be flashed.
Which distribution should I choose?
OPIE, Familiar, Qt/Palmtop Environment + Qt/Embedded?

[mscdex]

So consider me a beginner. I have an iPAQ waiting to be flashed.
Which distribution should I choose?
OPIE, Familiar, Qt/Palmtop Environment + Qt/Embedded?

Well, OPIE is just a GUI that runs on top of (usually Familiar) linux. Qt/Embedded costs money if your device does not already have it. So far, it seems that Familiar would be your best bet. There is another distro out there that is based off of Debian, but it is somewhat older... it's called Intimate.

[bdegroodt]

Assuming you've read the early works on this topic Andy...If not, here you go (http://linux.oreillynet.com/pub/a/linux/2001/06/01/linux_ipaq.html)

Thanks! This is a good background article!

Although the article is nice, it is a little out of date (almost/more than two years, I am not sure).
As many people know, linux evolves quite fast, and the article doesn´t really represent the present day familiar.

Yes. As I mentioned it's for the early works only. More of a history if you will.

[Andy Sjostrom]

Well, OPIE is just a GUI that runs on top of (usually Familiar) linux. Qt/Embedded costs money if your device does not already have it. So far, it seems that Familiar would be your best bet. There is another distro out there that is based off of Debian, but it is somewhat older... it's called Intimate.

Thanks! OK, Linux! Here we come...
BTW, have you flashed an iPAQ with Familar + OPIE yourself? (In case I need help...)

[bdegroodt]

Well, OPIE is just a GUI that runs on top of (usually Familiar) linux. Qt/Embedded costs money if your device does not already have it. So far, it seems that Familiar would be your best bet. There is another distro out there that is based off of Debian, but it is somewhat older... it's called Intimate.

Thanks! OK, Linux! Here we come...
BTW, have you flashed an iPAQ with Familar + OPIE yourself? (In case I need help...)

Been there. Done that. You'll have plenty of help available to you Andy. That's the best thing about OSS. Just make sure you follow the one absolute requirement in OSS- RTFM! :twisted:

[sfjlittel]

I think OPIE or GPE or both is the way to go. I would start with a bootstrap, so you can install the latest gui of choise afterwards.

[mscdex]

Well, OPIE is just a GUI that runs on top of (usually Familiar) linux. Qt/Embedded costs money if your device does not already have it. So far, it seems that Familiar would be your best bet. There is another distro out there that is based off of Debian, but it is somewhat older... it's called Intimate.

Thanks! OK, Linux! Here we come...
BTW, have you flashed an iPAQ with Familar + OPIE yourself? (In case I need help...)

Yes I have flashed my ipaq 3635 with familiar & opie, but that was a long while ago :) I can help you as best as I can, but there are also others on this board, along with an IRC channel dedicated to Familiar (and opie, and gpe, etc.). The people in that channel are very helpful. 8)

Also, I just found a site that seems to have a linux "distro" available for embedded devices, and it seems to support ARM-based CPUs as well as others. More info can be found at the http://www.snapgear.org site. I haven't used it personally yet, I just stumbled upon it a few minutes ago, it looks kinda interesting. :)

[rave]

I visited Trolltech's site and it seems that there is a freely-downloadable version of Qtopia. Anyone know if you could flash an iPAQ with this? Or is the Familiar/OPIE combo still better?

[markph]

I visited Trolltech's site and it seems that there is a freely-downloadable version of Qtopia. Anyone know if you could flash an iPAQ with this? Or is the Familiar/OPIE combo still better?

Ok...I may not get this 100% correct, so don't quote me on this. But originally I ran familiar on my ipaq with qtopia. Somehow, there was some big issue with qtopia in the hands of shared software. I *think* that TrollTech and/or their associated 3rd party counter parts (sony??) wanted qtopia a "production" piece only???

Again, anyone please fill in the holes. I was caught up in a major project at work, and never really understood what happened. I sensed that OPIE was a branch and an attempt to keep OPIE compatible with qtopia, sort of a parallel dev. effort.

:|

[rave]

I was just about to take the plunge by installing Familiar/OPIE in my 3835, but a couple of things stopped me:

* lack of SD card support, since the SD Association prohibits releasing of open-source SD drivers

* not-so-transparent file transfers between desktop and PC

* lack of sync with Outlook Notes

* a sync scheme that more resembles Hotsync than Activesync

I'm all for experimentation and trying new things, but I have only 1 PDA and so I can't really screw things up. Looking at my 128MB SD card finalized my decision. I'll be waiting a while more, at least for the SD card driver. :)