More Evidence The Market Isn't Interested In Converged Devices

[Ed Hansberry]

As recently as last spring people were clammoring for the converged device - a PDA and cell phone all in one. Today, the noise has died down somewhat and, intially at least, it seems the market is more interested in two devices connected via bluetooth or IR. Two examples:<br /><br />• HP <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10294">abandons plans for a converged device</a>. The so-called iPAQ 5600 series, basically the 5400 series with either a CDMA or GSM radio in it, has been dropped for now. <a href="http://www.brighthand.com/article/What_Happened_to_the_iPAQ_5600_Series">Brighthand has more</a> info on this.<br />• Handspring, a company that threw caution to the wind and launched headlong with only a converged device offering, is sinking fast. They have only sold 180,000 Treos in just a little over a year. Their revenues have been <a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1047-996977.html?tag=fd_top">cut nearly in half</a> from a year ago when they still sold the Visor line.<br /><br />Based on our non-scientific poll 46% of you preferred the two device solution and 42% preferred one device. Given we are "uber-geeks" here, I am not sure that is representative of the market. I suspect HP found the percentages were far more heavily skewed towards dual devices. I, and many others, just can't see even putting a device as large as an H1910 to our ear. Any smaller than that and the screen isn't worth much, or you are headed over to a voice centric device like a SmartPhone.

[alex22]

I've been using dual devices for quite some time. To use a phone as a heavy-use PDA is not acceptable, and to use a large-screen PDA as a phone looks ridiculous to me :)

So, I always carry two devices around, left behind my laptop.

[bblock]

Well, I may be in the minority, but I'm quite disappointed. I use my iPAQ 3850 far more as a PDA than I use my cellphone, and having to carry two devices most of the time is a pain.

However, I don't want to hold my iPAQ up to my ear, either. Hence...BLUETOOTH HEADSET. Yes, I know it's still two devices, but these headsets are getting smaller, and assuming the quality is okay (I've heard varied reports), I want to clip it to my iPAQ belt case and treat it as one, with the exeption of charging both every night or two.

I realize this may not work as well in practice as in theory (as most new technology is guilty of), but I have to say I'm disappointed that I won't be able to even try it with a converged HP device, as I quite like the iPAQ, had plans to get the GPRS sleeve before they cancelled it, and was anxiously anticipating a possible new converged device from them.

Just my $0.02.

[JMountford]

I am one of those that plug along in the Ed way of thinking. Even though I think I mentioned this thinking before Ed. (Correct me if I am wrong Ed.)

I am even starting my own website based on PDA devices for CDMA coverage (mostly done hoping to launch May 1st), but the thing I find annoying more than anything, is converged or not there are just no signs of life for any type of Smartphone or PDA devices.

We have heard nothing but hype for years now!! And nothing! THere is ONE I repeat ONE, MS Powered Smartphone actually on the Market more than a year after it was touted to be the next big thing. We have heard about new PPCPE Devices for CDMA, but neither of the two Main CDMA carriers (the ones touted to be carrying the devices) have any idea what I am talking about or when we will see them. I just don't know how far up the ladder I need to go to get some answers, but it is daunting, and to be sure it is a bad sign for any Smart Phone Based Devices. Crappy time to be a technophyle.

[smittyofdhs]

as for the 2 examples....

HP was not, and will never be, the ultimate in PDA decisions. They bought Compaq which among other things brought to HP the best line of PPC's available for the time. Compaq had decided to make the new converged pdas but now that HP owns them, Hp decided not to do it. Again, not the best decision makers in the world.

As for handspring... they have been going downhill since day 1. I started out in the pda market with a handspring, and they had a good device but I think Palm and all Palm companies are headed downhill faster since MS has jumped full force into the pda market. What's funny is that Handspring licensed the PPC OS in their second year of business but never moved on making a device on the PPC OS.

These 2 examples in my mind don't really dictate what the market is really wanting. And if they don't want to expand the converge pda market, then there's some else there to step in and do it....

[nobody]

I totally agree with 2 device approach. Putting PDA on my ear just looks super geeky (not that I am not geeky). Using phone as PDA is just too small if you want to watch movies!

[Foo Fighter]

I wouldn't say the market isn't interested in converged devices. The market is there, if the right product(s) were there. So far most have fallen very short. Handspring's Treo was a flop, and despite all the media hype it has proven to be very unpopular. But there are a significant number of devices that do a credible job of combining PDAs and cellphones. For example, Kyocera's latest PalmOS phone is pretty damn nice.

Give this hardware category time to mature and evolve. There is a bright future for converged devices.

[RDC]

I love my PPC-PE and can't wait for the next generation. A unit with a longer battery life, Bluetooth, wifi, a jog-wheel w/ intuitive launcher software, a better button layout and a tougher case design would please me to no end.

Based on the hundreds of threads covering this "2 devices vs. 1 converged device" arguement, I think we can all agree that this preference is COMPLETELY subjective and personal.

I just hope that the converged device, though not that popular, continues to improve.

[smittyofdhs]

I totally agree with 2 device approach. Putting PDA on my ear just looks super geeky (not that I am not geeky). Using phone as PDA is just too small if you want to watch movies!

try holding the SX56 or t-mo PPCPE up to your head and you'll find that it's not as geeky as you think, nor that big. That was my concern when I first bought the SX56 months ago but I have yet to have issue with it being too big. Likewise, I rarely hold it up to my head since it has speakerphone and headset ability. The speakerphone works great and normally I can hold it in my hand without having to speak extra loud...

[yschang]

I second bblock's idea about BT headset. That's the first thing I thought off when I read Ed's post.

Even now, I hardly put my phone near my ear anyway, I use handsfree whether my hands have to be free or not... :D

I was thinking about gettting a converged device with BT so I can use the BT headset in the future.

Now I guess I have to live with my mobile for a while longer :wink:

[nishka]

Duh! :)

I think it just makes sense.. A phone is considered 'chic' these days, and big clunky PDA's (even slim ones) certainly are not.

I'm a two device guy.. I'd much prefer an easier way to connect one device to another, and have my phone make life easier for inputting text. (My T720 Sucks at that - predictive text input only works for SMS messages..)

My money's on the smartphone. I think if they can get the form factor down to a Motorola flip style, we'll be in business.

[ricksfiona]

But there are a significant number of devices that do a credible job of combining PDAs and cellphones. For example, Kyocera's latest PalmOS phone is pretty damn nice.

Give this hardware category time to mature and evolve. There is a bright future for converged devices.

Absolutely true.

Most 2 in 1 devices have fallen short of expectations. The Smartphones can be awesome, but I wouldn't use them as my full-time PDA. Screen just isn't big enough. But a device like this is great when you need absolutely minimum bulk and can do with the loss of features for a relatively short time.

Electronics are shrinking all the time and thus the Smartphones can pack more features on. But screen size is screen size. Unless they pack in REAL speech recognition to issue commands and enter data, you can't use a Smartphone as a full time PDA.

[Paragon]

Hmmm.. I think you are trying to hard to make the numbers come to the conclusion you want, Ed. If you did a poll that said 46% wanted Ipaqs and only 42% wanted Toshiba's would you then determine that the market did not want Toshiba's?

As well, I guess you are saying, since HP/Compaq have refused to put a CF slot in the Ipaq then the market isn't ready for it. Just because HP takes a position on an issue doesn't mean that they know what the market wants.

Dave

[simzz1]

I guess it all depends on what applications you most use.
But I would assume that most PPCT readers use at least one of the following appplications:
-MS Reader (or some ebook equivalent)
-MS Money (or some financial soft)
-SpreadCE, Excel, Textmaker, Pocket Word (office tools)
-HanDBase
-Photoviewer
-Browser
-Video Player

Can you imagine trying to view these on a screen so small. Thank youk, but I have been spoiled by my Pocket PC.

[Jacob]

Most people want a big screen in a PDA, but a small as possible phone.

A smart phone with a smaller screen than most PDAs would be a great combination that would satisfy many, if not most users.

Power users would likely still carry around a bigger screened PDA and have a bluetooth connection to and from their smartphone :D

[iPaqDude]

I also have to second the BT post earlier. I use the Jabra BT headset with my T68i, and would just as well use it with a BlueTooth enabled PDA/GSM device. I don't like to look like I am copying Batman's Bat Belt when I need to have my phone and PDA with me, and it gets worse when you talk about having CF sleeve and cards that need to come along as well.

I have a Socket BlueTooth card in my older iPaq 3650 that I use to communicate to my T68i, both to surf as well as to transfer pictures taken on the T68's cam - doctor them up and then email them back out.

A single converged device with headset connectivity via BlueTooth would work great, IMHO. YMMV.

By the way, I really like the Jabra BT headset. Clarity is good, both in the reception and in the speech, and it works well with the voice commands on the T68i. I do, however, get a lot of funny look-at-the-space-cadet-geek kind of looks...

[RDC]

By the way, I really like the Jabra BT headset. Clarity is good, both in the reception and in the speech, and it works well with the voice commands on the T68i. I do, however, get a lot of funny look-at-the-space-cadet-geek kind of looks...

But is it comfortable? Does it ever fall off of your ear? I think I'm in the market for a BT headset.

[iPaqDude]

RDC asks:
But is it comfortable? Does it ever fall off of your ear? I think I'm in the market for a BT headset

It is very comfortable. I have worn if for 2 - 3 hours at a time with absolutely no issues. The gel bud works great, and doesn't plug the ear so much that you can't hear around you.

I have not had any problems with it falling off but then again, I haven't tried jogging or disco dancing with it on (although that blinking blue light would look kinda cool on the dance floor....).

[Looxer]

Reading a lot of users comments, articles and Magazines. Two devices are more popular because:

1) The design of a mobile phone is optimized for simple task of making calls. For dialing, users generally prefer the phone’s physical keypad, to the Pocket PC’s touch screen, which lacks tactile feedback. In addition, mobile phones are smaller than Pocket PCs and better able to withstand drops and kicks. Pocket PCs are larger and more noticeable in your pocket, and the larger touch screen on a Pocket PC makes it more fragile than a phone. Also, the battery in a Pocket PC Phone Edition devices powers not only the cell phone, but the processor and power-hungry screen of the Pocket PC. Stand-alone cell phones have far better battery life.

2) As newer phones or Pocket PCs appear on the market, you can replace either of the two without having to pay for both at the same time. For example, if you already have a Pocket PC, you can save hundreds of dollars simply by buying a Bluetooth CF card and a Bluetooth-enabled phone instead of buying a new Phone Edition device. The same savings will apply if you break something and have to replace it.

3) Finally more options are available to you if you have separate phone and Pocket PC. You can add a wide variety of accessories to your iPAQ using its Expansion Pack technology. You can access the built-in Wi-Fi capability of the Toshiba e740. You can use the larger screen and built-in keyboard of a Handheld PC like HP Jordana 728. You can even use your Bluetooth-equipped notebook PC. Plus your Pocket PC is not limited to only the phone’s connection to the Internet….. etc

The Phone Edition devices and Smartphones will certainly fit the needs of many users. For companies that have wireless communications applications, these one-box solutions are excellent choice. However, for typical versatility of separate units connected by Bluetooth is compelling. Two-box solutions are the way to go!

:way to go:

[mccollin]

8O I guess it's no surprise that I would think differently than Ed on this, but I agree that you are taking what is a statistical tie, and trying to make a big conclusion on it. The converged pdaPhone market grew tremendously last year. The number of devices hitting the market in the next few months is an order of magnitude more than last year. I consider a Smartphone to be a pdaPhone... some may not. Even without that, there are a ton of Symbian, Palm, Pocket PC, and Linux devices coming. Why would Samsung and some other vendors be investing in producing pdaPhones on 3 different platforms? Someone sees a market here. I don't think you can use HP as a good test case, because their behavior in this market has been very peculiar. And, the latest is that they are once again working on a Smartphone product. Time will tell on this, but I believe that at some point in the next several years that the the pdaPhone market will grow tremendously. Capabilities like bluetooth will even further support this.

I love my Pocket PC Phone and wouldn't go back to a dual device approach for anything. It has made me much more productive, and I now have my PDA with me all the time which has changed the way I use the PDA.

[Looxer]

I will admit.. Previously I enjoyed using all in one device!Hmmmmmmmm! How much I used to love my Siemens SX45
:cry:

http://www.siemens.com/misc/download.jsp?url=/Daten/siecom/HQ/ICM/Internet/ICM_Unitwide/WORKAREA/ccp_icm/templatedata/Deutsch/file/binary/soicm200202-2-72dpi.jpg

[fgarcia10]

Well, I'm not even using a PPCPE, I use the Toshiba 2032sp, and there is no way I will use a PDA that is not connected. I used to own a HP525, 547 and a 565 I loved all of them, but my Toshiba is better appreciated.

[shawnc]

I wouldn't say the market isn't interested in converged devices. The market is there, if the right product(s) were there. So far most have fallen very short. Handspring's Treo was a flop, and despite all the media hype it has proven to be very unpopular. But there are a significant number of devices that do a credible job of combining PDAs and cellphones. For example, Kyocera's latest PalmOS phone is pretty damn nice.

Give this hardware category time to mature and evolve. There is a bright future for converged devices.

Sorry Foo, but I disagree. The Treo was as good as it gets. The near-perfect combination of size and functionality (minus SD slot). IMO the reason it flopped is the very essence of this thread, that being a lack of interest for this type of device among the non-techie population. Most consumers are NOT going to want to walk around with a bluetooth headset on as they talk on the phone. Nor will they want to carry a PDA-sized device in their pants pocket to make a phone call. If you make it smaller (i.e. Kyocera's latest offering) most PDA users will need more screen size. And as nice as the Kyocera is, it is still to bulky for most consumers who like to carry their cellphone in their pocket.

I'm not slamming the concept (or those who own this type of device). I just don't think it will ever (at least in my lifetime) grow into anything more than a niche market.

[rlobrecht]

Most consumers are NOT going to want to walk around with a bluetooth headset on as they talk on the phone.

Except for cost, I disagree. People love headsets these days. I see tons of people who are using them. I can't imagine that they are all geeks.

[Scott R]

Sorry Foo, but I disagree. The Treo was as good as it gets. The near-perfect combination of size and functionality (minus SD slot). IMO the reason it flopped is the very essence of this thread, that being a lack of interest for this type of device among the non-techie population.
I agree with you that the Treo is currently as good as it gets. I disagree as to why it has sold poorly. I think the bottom line is that HS has priced it out of the range of the average consumer, instead hoping to sell it to enterprise customers. There aren't a lot of enterprise customers buying these sorts of things now (4 years ago, yes). So, the result is that those buying the Treo are geeks and individual enterprise customers. If you could buy a Treo 300 for $150 a year ago (what you can get it for now after rebates from Amazon), I suspect sales volumes would have been quite different. Not sure what category you'd put the Danger hiptop in, but it doesn't have a numeric keypad, so I wouldn't call it phone-centric. I suspect that once their color device comes out (supposedly within a month or so), they could own a huge chunk of this market.

Scott

[danmanmayer]

This is terrible news for me a current pocket pc phone owner and only wanting a better pocket pc phone. Who cares that it looks a little big to hold to an ear. Have people noticed that while cell phones keep shrinking the home phones haven't really. There is no problem such as holding the weight to your ear... I forget how much the world falls prey to what looks "cool." And you call yourself geeks... We are not cool by definition. Second, am i the only pocket pc phone user that uses the hands free headset that came with the device. It works great. It imroves sound qaulity dramatically. Then you don't even have a phone to your head and you look state of the art for you "cool" seeking people.
Just to not hold something approximately three times the size as a cell phone to your head people would rather have there pockets filled. I bought a pocket pc so it can go everywhere. Most would say the same about the cell phone. If i have a wallet, keys, chapstick, and a pocket pc my pockets are basically full. So how do all of you keep so much on you. Why would you want to. I agree that the screen should face the other direction when you talk on the phone so as not to smudge it but besides that i hold it up no problems.
I really hope some of you double users get a nice combined device sometime and realize that it is just simpler and easier. GRRRRR.... that loss of my dream device of the HP phone will be a sad day. Must go punch people that don't like technology.

[disconnected]

I want a separate phone, but I'd still like a PDA that had built-in CDMA (to use mostly for data, rather than as a phone).

The problem I have with buying a PPC phone edition device is that it seems they will always be somewhat outdated and under-featured PPCs, as soon as they're released. I'd probably be happiest with a CDMA data card that I can plug into whatever new PPC I buy (my next one, unlike my current 3970, will definitely have both SD and CF slots).

The main drawbacks with Sprint's Yiso card (assuming it works well; I've never actually tried one) are its bulk, with the external battery (which I guess I could live with), and Sprint's insane pricing structure -- 99.00 a month for data with the Yiso, as compared to free or almost free unlimited data with the Thera or Treo.

There's no way I'll pay that 99.00, so I'll probably have to go with a Bluetooth phone, assuming Sprint ever offers one, and hope that they don't actually prevent it from being used as a modem. I've been using an LG phone and cable, and haven't been hit with any charges yet, but my usage has been minimal, because it doesn't work well at all. I'm not altogether sure that it will work better with Bluetooth, which is another worry; it seems to want to continually disconnect and reconnect automatically, but the reconnect part doesn't always (or even usually) work; I get lots of page not found errors, and sometimes my iPAQ totally locks up and needs to be reset.

[thenikjones]

[quote="Disconnected"]I want a separate phone, but I'd still like a PDA that had built-in CDMA (to use mostly for data, rather than as a phone).

This is how I feel, too (well, obviously GSM over CDMA but you know what I mean). I have a Nokia 6310i and use it for email on my PPC, but would never want to have , say, an XDA as my only device. Maybe it's a cultural thing, but headsets (BT or wired) would look VERY strange in a pub in the UK. When I go out for the evening I wouldn't take my PPC with me, but I'd always want my phone.

Also, I'm a Nokia man - we hate external aerials! Very uncomfortable in the pocket! I would be tempted by the Orange SPV Smartphone but to complement, not replace, my PPC. Do any XDA-type phones have internal aerials?

[dMores]

i have always been intrigued by the "all in one" concept, and this is what smartphones are supposed to be.
this is why i think microsoft should not be using the term "smartphone" for it's newest line of telephones with basic pda cababilities. a smartphone is just so much more.

i own a loox + t68i. my girlfriend has a t-mo. and i find both do not fit my needs.
i love the loox, it is a beauty to look at, and it's the "coolest" pda around, as far as i'm concerned.
but lately the sonyericsson p800 (yes i know, not a ppc) has really been playing my mind. since i rarely use my loox for anything other than calendar, contacts and tasks, i guess it would fit my needs quite nicely.
and it is relatively small, which means i would take it along all the time.
i have my t68i with me all the time, the loox is being left behind occasionally. of course, just when i need it, it's not with me.

p800 with bt headset. now that is awesome. i have a hbh-30 bluetooth headset. and i love it. it is the best thing that has happened to me in a long time. my telephone bill rose, since i started calling people on my mobile all the time instead of using the office phone, or home phone.

converged phones do have a future. they may be niche products, but they will surely survive. nokia's communicator is the best example. it's been around for a while, and it'll still be around in years to come.

smartphones (in the true meaning of the word, not microsoft's interpretation of it) will continue to evolve, and there will always be people wanting all-in-one devices.
but saying that anyone using a cellphone will get one is just as false as saying that every pda user will get a smartphone. cellphone only, cellphone + pda, pda only, and cellphone and pda in one. those are the user groups.

:)

[Skoobouy]

Lots of varied posts in this thread. I'm almost surprised the conversation continued after Looxer's post--seemed like a show-stopping analysis to me!

I once had a boss (not a gadget geek) who owned a Palm V and a little phone. He said, under no uncertain terms, "My next PDA is going to have a phone in it."

Here's the problem: everybody wants a PDA-phone, but nobody wants what a PDA-phone actually is. There's a big gap between the device dancing in our dreams (competing with the sugar plums), and any real-world application.

Looxer put it best. In summary, our imaginary PDA-phone can't exist. Has anyone seen the episode of the Simpsons, where Homer dreams that he invents a wonderful gadget that does everything for everybody and makes him millions of dollars, except that no one in his dream will tell him what he invented? Yeah, that's it.

Little gadget, big screen, tactile buttons, dynamite battery life, etc. Of course, not only will we disagree about what we mean by "little," "big," and "tactile," but we'll discover that we even disagree with ourselves--whenever we try to give matter to form, we discover that our clumsy matter won't cooperate with our ideal forms. Look at me, I'm a Platonist!

The only solution? I watched a couple of movies today: Final Fantasy and Minority Report. Seems like they're asking us to take a hint...

Holograms! Only way to go...

[exsilio]

I disagree.

I don't think people are disinterested in converged devices, I just think that in this economy, and with the current level of technology, a good, functional converged device has yet to be made...it will take time.

[Ivan]

Well, as an Aero 1550 user 8O (yes that's still my main Pocket PC), I've been waiting for just the right (converged) device, and think (hope) the Samsung i700 will be it for me...

I own an LG 5350 (Sprint PCS) that has just enough PIM capabilities and it's small enough that I can carry it everywhere. Heck, it has substituted my Aero as my main PIM. My wireless plan includes unlimited data and includes the option of adding another phone to the account (for free) to share my minutes and data plan. Once it comes out, I'll be getting a i700 and will just leave it home when I just want to carry my phone.

I prefer two separate devices, however since adding a converged device to my wireless plan will cost me nothing (well, only the cost of the device), and I STILL get to keep my (small) cell phone for when I just want to carry a phone, I'll jump into the converged device wagon... besides I think it's time to upgrade from my Aero 1550.

[MultiMatt]

As my device usage has evolved, I have reached the point where being connected is one of my most important needs out of my device. For GSM consumers, the two device option as well as the Phone Edition option has existed for a while now. (I know - there is the Thera for Verizon, but I don't like it.)

Here's my problem:
My employer uses Verizon, and they have no BT phones, so BT has been useless to me (for connectivity) for nearly two years now. I have waited and wished and prayed that a BT phone would be available on Verizon's network. I would at least give the two-device concept a try. Currently, I carry a data cable for my StarTac, but is a pain in the butt (too much crap to carry) and is painfully slow.

Since HP seems to have pulled the plug on the 5600 series, I am now looking to the new Samsung i700 that is coming out. I've been an iPAQ user for nearly two years (currently using a 5455), and don't like the thought of jumping ship, but I don't see that I have much choice! No BT phones on Verizon,
I want to be connected quickly and easily without carrying a bunch of crap
It's a shame that the CDMA carriers have offered so few choices for us Pocket PC users to connect (aside from having to carry more crap like the CF card that Sprint offers... I don't want more crap to carry!).
Maybe Hitachi and Samsung will help give that a kick-start with their Phone Editions...
And maybe, just maybe, a BT enabled phone will become available on Sprint/Verizon so people could entertain that option....

Matt

[adamz]

Ed, why would anyone want to hold anything up to their head!? Cell phones are two small to hold against your head with your shoulder... you'd have to use a hand. And that means one less hand to be used for carrying stuff or typing. You're missing the point of a converged device.

The ideal PDA, would have wireless capabilities built in such that it can do text based, image based, video based, and voice based communications. By voice based communications, of course I mean telephones. Voice interactivity would be implemented through a speaker and microphone located on the device for use as a speakerphone in quite areas. While private voice communications would be implemented via a wireless bluetooth enabled headset. The headset would have 3 or 4 speed dial buttons along with an answer/end toggle button, and it would have the capability to fold and attach to the PDA such that both can be carried as ONE unit.. as well, both can be recharged as one.
This implementation would mean you would only have to put the small bluetooth headset onto your ear where it could remain for the duration of the call... thus freeing your hands and eyes to interact with the screen of the PDA (monitor call time, take notes, access maps in order to communicate directions, etc.) When you're finished with the call you can leave the headset on your ear, or clip it back onto the side of the PDA where it will shut off automatically in order to preserve battery life. Once the headset is removed, it will instantly re-establish it's bluetooth link with the PDA.

The iPAQ H5600 would have been the closest device to come to this solution since it would include both mobile phone capabilities and wireless bluetooth headset support.

I've got an iPAQ H3970 and Ericsson Bluetooth phone. The iPAQ does not retain a link to the phone when the iPAQ is off.. hence it does not turn on when a call or message is recieved. Also, it's a huge pain to have to carry both devices. Maybe if the bluetooth phone could attach to the iPAQ like an expansion pack, that would be nice.
Oh, and I've got that too. It's the Compaq GSM/GPRS expansion pack. The problem with that is that there's no bluetooth headset profile and the expansion pack doesn't function for voice communications on it's own.. and it's kind of big. But even still... at least I have full integration with the Pocket PC data, and don't have to carry two devices in order to keep up with my mobile data and communications.

Let's see you read the address of a location that you recieved in an email from your PDA to a friend while talking on the T68 of yours.. while walking down the street? It's not going to happen, because one of your hands is stuck holding something against your head, and you can't operate a PDA with one hand. Or let's see you open Pocket Streets, search for your lost friend's location and dictate directions to her over the phone? This is no problem with a converged device and headset.

[normaldude]

I'm in the 2 device camp. I'd prefer a small cellphone and PDA connected by Bluetooth.

That way, if you switch cellphone carriers (ex: GSM to CDMA/TDMA/AMPS), you don't have to buy & configure a new PDA.

[Jerome Carney]

I gotta chime in in favor of the converged device... When last I had a cell phone, I would often leave it at home, whereas my old 3600 IPAQ went everywhere with me.

Last year, when I traded up to the the T-Mobile PPCPE, it was primarily for Internet capabilitis... GPRS is admittedly much slower than WIFI, but for me this was a fair enough trade off, in exchange for the near-ubiquitous access to email and the Web.

But I've been surprisingly delighted with T-Mo as a cell phone, especially while driving, where the stereo headphones greatly improve caller clarity, and, thanks to Fonix, voice dialing is a breeze. I also appreciate the large touchpad, which makes the occasional tactile dialing I have to do while driving much more manageable.

And, like a previous poster pointed out, the T-Mo is almost comparable in size to standard cordless headsets, and has never really felt awkward to me. Usually, though, for a conversation that's going to last more than 5 minutes, I'll switch to the headphones, again because of increased clarity.

[yschang]

So I guess they have to make the PDA phone as small as the flipper phone from Moto and add an optional magnifier just like the Gameboy and the Sega Gamegear... :lol: Then you can even see the pixels on the screen!!! 8O

[szamot]

give me a device that I can actually use, with some good coverage and I am there. Up here in the Great White North we have an AudioVox, a $1000 joke, or we can buy a t-mobile in the US and activate with Fido...still a joke for coverage. I would say that there is a lack of good devices, and plans to go with them, that's why it is slow. Kind of hard to get the market to grow when you can't buy the equipment - do TELCOS read these things on this board!!!!!!!!!!!?

[Brad Adrian]

I wonder if there's any kind of relationship between the preference for a converged device and the use of a hands-free set. I don't mind holding my PPC Phone Edition up to my ear, but much prefer using a hands-free set (if for no reason other than it allows me to use the other applications during a phone call).

I've always preferred hands-free sets, even before I got my "large" Phone Edition. Any other thoughts on this?

[Ed Hansberry]

All the talk of hands free stuff is too premature. Wired headsets are a pain unless you just wear it all of the time. Only a teeny tiny percentage of cell phone users do that. Bluetooth headsets are just too expensive. :cry:

[jimski]

Ed, why would anyone want to hold anything up to their head!? Cell phones are two small to hold against your head with your shoulder... you'd have to use a hand. And that means one less hand to be used for carrying stuff or typing. You're missing the point of a converged device.

Let's see you read the address of a location that you recieved in an email from your PDA to a friend while talking on the T68 of yours.. while walking down the street? It's not going to happen, because one of your hands is stuck holding something against your head, and you can't operate a PDA with one hand. Or let's see you open Pocket Streets, search for your lost friend's location and dictate directions to her over the phone? This is no problem with a converged device and headset.

Why can't I use my Bluetooth headset and keep my T68i in my pocket or on my belt. Both hands are free to play with my PDA which is also Bluetooth enabled. I can speed dial numbers with my 5450, check e-mail and browse the web when I need to.

One thing I don't understand regarding PPCPE devices. When you receive a call, what do you do? Search around for your plug in headset or just let voicemail answer the phone. I don't walk around all day with a headset stuck to my ear. Basically, I can't stand cell phones. The incessant ringing and constant chatter from people talking about next to nothing drives me bananas. With that said, I realize how essential they have become and never leave the house without my T68i although I will admit that my iPAQ does not make every trip.

Two devices provide me with the greatest degree of flexibility. Nothing less than a 3.8" PDA screen for me.

[Marc Zimmermann]

I'm all for converged devices. One device less to carry around is a major benefit for me.

As a Pocket PC user that mostly uses it for looking up information, the Smartphone platform would be almost more attractive, if it only supported at least viewing Word and Excel files as well as synchronizing Outlook's Notes. Also, some improvement in battery life would be cool for the Smartphone.

I don't have any problems with holding the Pocket PC Phone Edition up to my ear. I don't have any concerns about others thinking I'm not cool. It's a great PDA that does a pretty decent job of acting as a phone. Actually, the xda is the PDA with the most impressive battery life that I've had so far.

In my opinion, Compaq made a major mistake in not turning the HTC phone edition device into an iPAQ. The lack of market penetration of Phone Edition devices is IMHO also due to no major manufacturer offering such a device separately from carriers. People don't tend to change carriers just to get such a device.

In my user group I see more and more people becoming interested in converged devices, both Smartphone and Pocket PC Phone Editon.

[BrotherDave]

<Brand spanking newbie>

Assuming you believe (like me) that PPC screens are big enough to be useful…

It's not true that any device with a screen big enough to be useful will be too big to be comfortable next to your ear. At home I have a simple 900MHz cordless phone. It’s way bigger than my PPC. But I never think it’s uncomfortable to put up to my head. In fact it’s probably more comfortable than my cell (if I had to choose.)

I think this “converged device” argument is related to the “Pocket PCs are still to big argument”. The problem w/ converged phones is that they still don’t fit *comfortably* in your pocket. People don’t want to carry around something in their pocket that’s as bulky as most PPCs (and especially PPC phones.) I have high hopes for the hp h1910. It proves that with the ppc screen you can still have a very small device - one I hope fits comfortably into your pocket (don’t own one yet and I’m afraid to put one of the store models in my pocket.) It may need to get a little bit smaller yet.

When a converged PPC device fits comfortably in your pocket and has the basic requirements of a successful PPC - it will be successful.

[Looxer]

If you think so, then the size of the Treo is almost perfect for your pocket (4.2" x 2.8" x 0.82")

http://www.palminfocenter.com/images/img_HS_Treo_270_L.jpg

[Scott R]

If you think so, then the size of the Treo is almost perfect for your pocket (4.2" x 2.8" x 0.82")
It is. When closed, the Treo may not be the thinnest device around, but you don't really need a case, so you have to take that into account. Plus, the other dimensions are small enough that it really fits very comfortably in your pocket. The technology is definitely looking a bit antiquated (160x160 screen, Dragonball, no memory expansion, etc.) but it still the best convergence device out there right now, IMO. Part of this is due simply to Sprint's consumer-friendly pricing of unlimited data. That being said, aside from longing for some updated technology (320x320 screen being my biggest wish), I find that the Treo's thumbboard is a bit too small for my liking. I get by with it, but I'd prefer to see them rotate the layout providing for a larger thumbboard (along the size of the Danger hiptop's). This approach would require getting rid of the see-through lid and having the Palm OS display on the inside of the clamshell. That means putting a secondary display on the outside (for dialing phone numbers primarily, though it could also be used to display upcoming events, incoming notifications, etc.). This approach would also allow for putting a numeric keypad on the outside of the device. You could think of it as a smaller version of the Nokia Communicator. I created several sketches incorporating my thoughts about a month ago here: http://www.hipnetic.com/geek/

Scott

[adamz]

Why can't I use my Bluetooth headset and keep my T68i in my pocket or on my belt. Both hands are free to play with my PDA which is also Bluetooth enabled. I can speed dial numbers with my 5450, check e-mail and browse the web when I need to.


'Cause then you're carrying three things and monitoring three battery levels. And the phone in your pocket is percieved as unnecessary because you're not interacting with it physically. It's just taking space. If the phone was built into (or attached to) the PDA, there'd be room in your pocket for keys... and you'd only have to worry about recharging the PDA and headset when you got home.


One thing I don't understand regarding PPCPE devices. When you receive a call, what do you do? Search around for your plug in headset or just let voicemail answer the phone.

Press the answer button and talk. If the headset's plugged in, you put it in your ear to listen. It's like picking up a phone except the earbud is alot smaller. If the headsets not plugged in you can hold it to your head.

[Janak Parekh]

I created several sketches incorporating my thoughts about a month ago here: http://www.hipnetic.com/geek/
Pretty cute. May I ask what the last one is? 8O ;)

--janak

[Looxer]

a new Palm Phone, it features a 2.2 inch, 160x240 pixel color display, and is backed by a 33 MHz Dragonball CPU to run Palm OS 4.1. It offers 16 MB of RAM, but no expansion card slot. Why they go LOW END when it comes to PDA phones?????

http://www.infosyncworld.com/news/n/3387.html

[Chris Byrne]

Disappointed to see this whole thread develop and no mention of the SE P800.

Its not perfect but I haven't looked back since dumping my t39 & 3870 combination (and no my 3870 wasn't as fatally flawed as many seemed to be).

I can now easily phone, listen to music, surf, email & (being in the UK) text/SMS and almost forget the heroic struggles I used to go through with my PDA/phone combination to try and achieve the same thing.

[Paragon]

So.....who really says that HP is out of the converged device market anyway? So far one HP VP has made one statement that was part of a RIM article, and that is about it. I have read recent articles that stated that HP had a contract with someone to make a wireless device, but in the end they could not produce. I have also seen a recent news release stating that HTC had won back the contract with HP to deliver a wireless device sometime later this year. It even went as far as to say that it would be an H4000 series device. If you take a look at the 1910, and the highly rumored 2200 with dual slots I think in is very apparent that a small device like one of those can easily be made into a converged device......and they would be smaller then many cellphones I have had over the years.

I have a pretty strong feeling that within the year we will se an HP branded converged device. I think if you put everything together.....news releases, quotes, market conditions.....YES market conditions. There clearly is a market for converged devices despite Ed's attempts to hide it. :)

We are becoming a connected world more, and more everyday. If you listened to Bill Gates keynote at the mobility conference recently you know that Microsoft is very committed to being connected.

Why would HP want to leave themselves out in the cold?

Why is there so much energy being put into building devices, and software to allow handheld to handle different types of networks (WiFi, CDMA/GSM, Bluetooth) seemlessly while we move about during the day?

The Ipaq use to be known as a cutting edge device. How cutting edge is it if you have to carry around other pieces of hardware to get connected?

One day we are going to rule the world from the palm of our hands. It seems to me we will need to be connected to do that, and in a very simple manner.

Dave

[Looxer]

Disappointed to see this whole thread develop and no mention of the SE P800.

Its not perfect but I haven't looked back since dumping my t39 & 3870 combination (and no my 3870 wasn't as fatally flawed as many seemed to be).

I can now easily phone, listen to music, surf, email & (being in the UK) text/SMS and almost forget the heroic struggles I used to go through with my PDA/phone combination to try and achieve the same thing.

Thoughts from OC Workbench about SE P800:

• It is NOT a 'real' PDA
• No contrast control
• No brightness control
• No T9 (with keypad closed)
• Only 12MB of memory
• MemoryStick DUO ... a limited & doubtful option
• Lack of softwares (for the time-being)
• No editing function for documents e.g. Word, Excel etc
• PC Suite problem (couldn't sync with Outlook at all although games etc could be installed)
• Lack of full USB support (for keyboards, peripherals etc)
• Color not as vibrant (as Nokia 7650)
• Loudspeaker mode is a tad soft (due to speaker at back)
• Cannot playback most movie formats (mpeg, avi etc)
• Cannot playback most music formats (Ogg, wma etc)
• Cannot use MP3 as ringtone
• Lack of an 'Auto complete' feature when using QWERTY
• RF is on the weak side (to recover GPRS coverage, have power off/on phone)
• Voice Memo is a tad noisy
• No User Profiles
• Wallpaper not possible in landscape mode
• Symbian OS ver.7 (application development could be slow as rival Series 60 is found on more phones)

[Scott R]

Pretty cute. May I ask what the last one is? 8O ;)
Yeah, that one's a joke. Although Sprint's coverage is tons better than GSM in most parts of the US, it's still not great for some of us. After having a discussion with someone on TreoCentral who had problems losing his signal in his house, I created that mock-up as a next-gen Treo with superior signal strength. ;)

Scott

[hollis_f]

If the headsets not plugged in you can hold it to your head.And smear ear-grease all over the screen.

[Marc Zimmermann]

And smear ear-grease all over the screen.
You don't need to slap them to your cheeks. Holding the lower part away from your face works perfectly.

[onepieceman]

My experience a few years back was that I had a phone, a PDA, a personal hifi etc, and none was sufficiently useful to me to carry around all the time. I don't make many calls away from the desk, so I often left the phone at home. I'm not often away from Outlook, so I didn't have a pressing need for a PDA. I don't travel that often, so I would often forget where I had left my walkman. I also have a digital camera, but I don't take it around with me "just in case", only when I specifically want to take photos, so I miss out on all the "spontaneous" opportunities.
The point I'm making is that in my particular case, all the gadgets were just under the threshold of everyday usefulness (to me). Putting them all together (except for the camera) in the XDA changed the equation. Now I found that although each gadget individually wasn't used often enough to be carried around, the cumulative amount of usage I get from all three takes me way over my personal usefulness threshold. Adding a camera would extend the argument further.
So anyway, that's how I look at it. Everyone's different of course...

[mccollin]

The point I'm making is that in my particular case, all the gadgets were just under the threshold of everyday usefulness (to me). Putting them all together (except for the camera) in the XDA changed the equation. Now I found that although each gadget individually wasn't used often enough to be carried around, the cumulative amount of usage I get from all three takes me way over my personal usefulness threshold. Adding a camera would extend the argument further.
So anyway, that's how I look at it. Everyone's different of course...

This is the best comment in this thread. This is my experience exactly. I also believe that we are here heavily getting into the "P" part of PDA. They are personal. Everyone's needs are different, and everyone's lifestyle is different. Many of the negative comments I believe come from people that haven't actually used the devices.

Examples...

The long list of SE P800 negatives up above would not fly with most P800 owners. Most P800 owners I've had dialog with love the device. Compared to an XDA, its scales are a bit shifted to the phone side of the equation, and there are pros and cons of that. I am own the fence of buying one of them for that reason... the phone factor.

The comment about the face oil on the screen is clearly coming from someone that doesn't use an XDA. There are two very easy ways to avoid this. One... use a WriteShield (it has a non-shiney surface and shows no face oil at all)... or keep the phone off your face (the phone works fine if you tilt it slightly so that it doesn't tough your face.

...

As for HP's involvement, it is somewhat strange. They were first out of the gate with a Pocket PC Phone Edition, and then they ended that with the Compaq merger. Their first out device was pretty good, and had they continued the work, they would have been a top contender. But, you have to remember that the sales model for phones is very different than PDAs. HP's selling model doesn't include having to customize their product for a carrier and then sell it in a subsidized manner to consumers who buy phone contracts. Perhaps they don't like that model. The latest on HP is that they are soliciting vendors to OEM a Smartphone for them. We'll have to wait and see what they do, but I believe their behavior to date with pdaPhones is kind of strange.

[Looxer]

The long list of SE P800 negatives up above would not fly with most P800 owners. Most P800 owners I've had dialog with love the device. Compared to an XDA, its scales are a bit shifted to the phone side of the equation, and there are pros and cons of that. I am own the fence of buying one of them for that reason... the phone factor.

It is true! the P800 is more as a phone than a PDA, that’s why it is suggested to compare it with same type of phone. In my opinion I think we should keep smart phones in a separate category. In my case I combined iPAQ h5450 with SE T68i, a PDA that is powerful enough for my needs, and a phone w/ BT that is small enough for phone calls, GPRS and MMS. Using the T68i as a modem and a basic phone is my main priority, since I can use it with varieties of PDA’s and Laptops. With this combination, I can never downgrade from h5450.

[handheldplanet]

Like many of you, I've used about every combination available. Currently I choose a t68+5450 as my preferred combination (even though I still own an XDA). I've found that when I carry my laptop on trips I'm able to get email either through WiFi where available or using bluetooth to access GPRS - so it's more convenient to carry the t68 with bluetooth then to try to answer 50 emails on a Pocket PC Phone. So, this combination fits my needs.

I'm sure HP has thoroughly studied the market. One example I can think of that backs their stance is the Japanese mobile phone market. Handsets have remained very phone-centric, but have additional features that make them useful for other tasks.

We may have a hard time dealing with phone-centricity since most of us are data-centric. I for example prefer to check my bank account balances and transactions online whereas my wife prefers to call. My guess is that although the paradigm is shifting, most people are still voice-centric. So, they must view the data capabilities of a converged device as overkill. A good illustration of this is the limited number of people that actually use all of the capabilities of their mobile phones. Very few of the people I know use WAP, MMS, and other features already included in their phones.

Personally, I believe that even the MS Smartphone platform has an uphill battle ahead of it. I've owned an MS Smartphone and I must admit that I was very UNDERimpressed. I just couldn't justify the larger handset size for the features. I also found the OS somewhat complicated for a phone - I remember it taking me like 7 button presses just to dial a contact in my phone book - but that's an entirely different topic.