HTC Tanager Sold As Qtek 7070

[Andy Sjostrom]

<a href="http://www.qtek.nu/default.asp?id=15&element=2">http://www.qtek.nu/default.asp?id=15&element=2</a><br /><br />In some countries, including Sweden, the Pocket PC Phone Edition known as T-Mobile or XDA is sold as "Qtek 1010". The same brand will carry the new Microsoft Smartphone that we have come to know as "HTC Tanager". The <a href="http://www.qtek.nu/default.asp?id=15&element=2">Qtek 7070</a> will be available at the end of May according to the distributor, Brightpoint Sweden AB, and will come with a stereo portable handsfree, camera, case, charger, Quick Start Guide, User's Manual, CD with ActiveSync and a USB cable. The new Smartphone 2002 will eventually become available in more countries soon, as well.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/qtek7070_01.jpg" />

[MultiMatt]

It is BEYOND ridiculous that there are no MS Smartphones available from any US carriers at this point in time.
I see all of these other pieces of crap "wannabe" phones being released, and we still have no MS Smartphones to choose from, even if we wanted!

Flash back to the Fall of 2001, when Beth (Goza) Torrone did her Mobile Experience Tour. She demoed a Smartphone then!

I just don't get it - we're nearing midway through '03, and still nothing!

I'm all ears, for anyone who wishes to give a logical explanation for our current state of MS Smartphone-lessness!

Matt

[Seraph1024]

agreed

[JonnoB]

It takes a smart mobile phone company to release a smart phone. So far, I would say that all of the mobile carriers in the US (except for perhaps Nextel) are not very smart. I believe Nextel would do it if there were even one SmartPhone based on the iDen network.

[Janak Parekh]

It takes a smart mobile phone company to release a smart phone. So far, I would say that all of the mobile carriers in the US (except for perhaps Nextel) are not very smart. I believe Nextel would do it if there were even one SmartPhone based on the iDen network.
Nextel isn't that smart either -- they've just basically bought into the iDEN technology years ago and move with Motorola, and that's about it.

It's scary, but IMHO T-Mobile is the "smartest" of the bunch, and I don't consider them remotely smart. :? And it's not the GSM vs. CDMA problem -- this phone is a triband GSM phone, and works in the US, so in theory AT&T, Cingular, or T-Mobile could carry it -- but none do. :devilboy:

--janak

[bdegroodt]

There's no accounting for US wireless carrier actions. Even the hardware they do "sell" isn't sold so well. I have 3 examples in less than 5 months at TM. In order for me to get a PPCPE the day they were "released" I had to listen to a regional manager explain how he was going to probably "get fired" for selling me the phone since I wasn't a new customer. Mind you I paid just over $700 for the unit. Not sure what kind of prick fires someone for selling that thing for $700...but that's the story there.

Try to get a BlackBerry, either 5810 or 6710. Next to impossible as well. In spite of the press releases. Even the "interest form" looks like somebody's first HTML page.

Try getting a Danger Hiptop. Claim they are sold out and won't be getting any more until the color devices come.

Come to think of it. The last 4 phones I've had on TM haven't come from TM. Each has been from a reseller of technology I actually wanted. You would think adding a few cool SKUs to the line up could help to generate sales...But what do I know. I just buy the stuff, I don't sell it. :twisted:

[bdegroodt]

No blue tooth eh?

[volwrath]

I want my US smartphone, preferably by Sprint!

[ricksfiona]

No blue tooth eh?

No Bluetooth, no sale.

[bdegroodt]

No blue tooth eh?

No Bluetooth, no sale.

For sure no sale! Such an obvious and cheap additon, I just can't understand why any cell phone coming to market would miss it. Everyone says there's no killer app for BT (I disagree) but being able to draw all your contacts into your new phone via BT and having your phone address book set up in 2 minutes seems pretty killer to me. This phone gets a slight pass because you can sync by USB, but I still wouldn't buy it without BT.

[Duncan]

I'm all ears, for anyone who wishes to give a logical explanation for our current state of MS Smartphone-lessness!

Easy. Currently the US is the least important market for mobile phone tech in the civilised world. Not an easy fact but none-the-less true.

The vast majority of the rest of the world settled on one digital standard (GSM) years ago - meaning that simple economics makes producing, selling and marketing smartphones in Europe or the Far East is straightforward. Over the years mobile phone use in Europe and the Far East has become so prevalent that the market has even became saturated (last year I was shocked to find that of my tutor group - all aged 11/12 - all 30 had a mobile phone) - making selling new forms of mobile phone of key importance but also to an interested and eager market...

While the US market still matters, it is low priority and still willing to accept cheaper and more basic mobile phones. Imagine you have a GSM smartphone to sell - in the US you know that a) large parts of the population you sell to/territories you sell in can't use your phone; b) you don't stand to sell as many per head of population as mobile use is still relatively low; c) you stand to make less of a return on your investment as owners of mobile phones in the US don't use their phones as much as in Europe etc. (texting, for example, is a major source of income for European networks).

In the end why should mobile networks in the US invest in selling smartphones, where making back their investment and subsidies is going to be hard, when they can get (what for Europe are) yesterday's phones such as the T68, for next to nothing, and still be guaranteed to sell them and make a profit?

[bdegroodt]

Easy. Currently the US is the least important market for mobile phone tech in the civilised world. Not an easy fact but none-the-less true.


Says who? If this is the case, why do so many foreign cellular companies keep eyeballing US wireless carriers?


The vast majority of the rest of the world settled on one digital standard (GSM) years ago - ...

While I'll give you that there are certainly more GSM units sold world wide, this isn't a fact either. CDMA continues to make market share gains and according to the CDMA Development Group, there are over 159 million CDMA users and growing (Was 135M at the end of Dec 2002). Read more here (http://www.cellular.co.za/news_2002/120302-cdma_now_has_159m_users_worldwid.htm)

Finally, Verizon is the largest US wireless carrier...A CDMA carrier.

This doesn't excuse the missing US Smartphones at all. I think a more likely excuse is that Europe and Asia generally lead the US in getting newer phone "stuff" first. For obvious reasons- There are far more users in that market than the US.

[GregWard]

c) you stand to make less of a return on your investment as owners of mobile phones in the US don't use their phones as much as in Europe etc. (texting, for example, is a major source of income for European networks).


According to figures just out - in January in the UK 1.65 BILLION text messages were sent (53 million per day!!!). New Years Day broke the record with 102 million texts sent. All at 10p (about 7 cents) each. That's a heck of a lot of revenue from a service none of the carriers expected!

No idea what the US volumes are though.

[ppcsurfr]

While I'll give you that there are certainly more GSM units sold world wide, this isn't a fact either. CDMA continues to make market share gains and according to the CDMA Development Group, there are over 159 million CDMA users and growing (Was 135M at the end of Dec 2002). Read more here (http://www.cellular.co.za/news_2002/120302-cdma_now_has_159m_users_worldwid.htm)

Finally, Verizon is the largest US wireless carrier...A CDMA carrier.

This doesn't excuse the missing US Smartphones at all. I think a more likely excuse is that Europe and Asia generally lead the US in getting newer phone "stuff" first. For obvious reasons- There are far more users in that market than the US.

So are you trying to tell me that because a single country hasd the largest CDMA network or makes a big chunk of a CDMA subscribership it has to be first?

How many countries carry CDMA? How many countries carry GSM?

Say... can you bring your CDMA phone over in Europe and make full use of it??? How about Asia???

Wow!... And here in the Philippines we have 2 top telcos that have a combined subscriber base of 16Million. Hmmm... and we're a small country... And I know that most of those who ever own a mobile phone here normally would have gone through at least 1 model change already...

So how many GSM subscribers are there really?

So... There... that is why...

So I guess you are right about that when you say there is a larger market out there...

And by the way... The Tanager was launched here in the Philippines last February 14, 2003. :D


Carlo Ma. Guerrero
PinoyPocketPC

URL: http://www.pinoypocketpc.com
Email: [email protected]
Mobile Phone: +63 (918) 9020700
Mobile Fax: +63 (918) 9320350

[shk718]

could it be the regulatory hurdels that slow the U.S. down and also Sprint and Verizon have their own testing thats required before they sell a phone. Where as in europe when someone makes a gsm phone anyone can buy it and get it activated with their provider.

[bdegroodt]

So are you trying to tell me that because a single country hasd the largest CDMA network or makes a big chunk of a CDMA subscribership it has to be first?

Not at all. Personally, I'd rather not be first up for any of these technologies. I'd rather see them vetted in a larger marketplace like Europe.


How many countries carry CDMA? How many countries carry GSM?


From the site I linked orignially:

There are 80 million CDMA users in the Americas. In North America, CDMA is the dominant wireless technology with more than 58 million subscribers. Latin America is one of the fastest growing regions for CDMA. As of September 2002, there were 26 million subscribers in the Central and Latin America region, a 40 percent increase over the past year.


Say... can you bring your CDMA phone over in Europe and make full use of it??? How about Asia???


Is the question can I get a CDMA signal in those continents? Asia yes. Europe, I don't believe so. However, it's less of a concern that most would have you believe. I travel a lot. Most of my travel is domestic and from time to time I have to travel internationally. On those occasions I have the benefit of GSM. But I think in reality your average Joe doesn't care as much about using their phone in Europe or Asia as they do about domestic service. It's an occasional use issue for most people. Those that travel internationally long ago figured out the benefits of GSM.


So how many GSM subscribers are there really?

According to CDG, 793M.

[ppcsurfr]

c) you stand to make less of a return on your investment as owners of mobile phones in the US don't use their phones as much as in Europe etc. (texting, for example, is a major source of income for European networks).


According to figures just out - in January in the UK 1.65 BILLION text messages were sent (53 million per day!!!). New Years Day broke the record with 102 million texts sent. All at 10p (about 7 cents) each. That's a heck of a lot of revenue from a service none of the carriers expected!

No idea what the US volumes are though.

Well, I don't have any idea about the US figures... but I have an idea about how much SMS Filipinos send out each day...

The Philippines is considered the text messaging capital of the world. Its 9-10 million mobile subscribers send about 75 million text messages per day on average.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/BUSINESS/asia/01/30/phil.globe/?related

And that was in a January 2002 article... right now the combined subscriber base of both SMART Communications and Globe Telecom should be around the 16million mark... Now how much SMS would that translate too.

[Janak Parekh]

This doesn't excuse the missing US Smartphones at all. I think a more likely excuse is that Europe and Asia generally lead the US in getting newer phone "stuff" first. For obvious reasons- There are far more users in that market than the US.
Don't forget the x-factor of the conservative nature of wireless carriers here. Verizon seems hellbent on not releasing a Bluetooth phone, even when reference designs exist and Sprint is coming out with nearly the same phone with Bluetooth. I think that's a far larger reason than Duncan's argument. Case in point -- Samsung has already pioneered CDMA phones in Korea that blow all of our phones away. By far. And it would be easy to get them here -- just support different frequencies. Oh, and the most advanced deployed phones, BTW, are in Japan, where one of the most successful companies (KDDI) is CDMA. It's not the tech, it's the damned attitude of the wireless carriers here.

The saddest irony is that Microsoft is a US company. Their mobile research people already carry GSM MS Smartphones (either the HTC or the Compal), so it's not nearly as much of a technological issue. And as for GSM coverage here - Duncan - you might be surprised. With three major carriers building out the GSM network here very fast, that argument holds less every day.

--janak

[vetteguy]

Wow...another Smartphone that I can't buy in the US...woohoo!!! :?

[Duncan]

Says who? If this is the case, why do so many foreign cellular companies keep eyeballing US wireless carriers?

Simple. The big European and Asian GSM companies are hungry to expand into new markets. The US GSM companies are tasty morsels to be gobbled up.

While I'll give you that there are certainly more GSM units sold world wide, this isn't a fact either. CDMA continues to make market share gains and according to the CDMA Development Group, there are over 159 million CDMA users and growing (Was 135M at the end of Dec 2002).

Your point? CDMA still has some captive market to expand into. GSM has largely reached saturation point which means a slow down in expansion. CDMAs current expansion rate is not a sign of success but an indication of years of failure to unify and develop and the problems of a fractured market.

Finally, Verizon is the largest US wireless carrier...A CDMA carrier.

And? Being biggest in a small market is not much to boast about!

I think a more likely excuse is that Europe and Asia generally lead the US in getting newer phone "stuff" first. For obvious reasons- There are far more users in that market than the US.

Odd - I thought that was one of my key points!

could it be the regulatory hurdels that slow the U.S. down and also Sprint and Verizon have their own testing thats required before they sell a phone. Where as in europe when someone makes a gsm phone anyone can buy it and get it activated with their provider.

Ah yes - if something isn't going right blame regulation... 8)

I'm afraid your understanding of the situation in Europe is way off beam. GSM networks and phones are as heavily regulated (if not more so) as in the US. GSM phones in Europe are usually invariably sold with 12 month network contracts or non-contract phones are still tied to a network.

Is the question can I get a CDMA signal in those continents? Asia yes. Europe, I don't believe so.

Asia - CDMA in some parts only (big continent and still largely GSM). Africa - mainly GSM. Europe - entirely GSM.

in reality your average Joe doesn't care as much about using their phone in Europe or Asia as they do about domestic service.

Companies developing and selling phones care about going after the biggest market. Your 'average Joe' is only of interest to them if it is economically viable to sell to him. Of course Joe is somewhat hamstrung by the fact that, in travelling around just within his own country, he can have to deal with two different digital standards and large analogue only areas.

And as for GSM coverage here - Duncan - you might be surprised. With three major carriers building out the GSM network here very fast, that argument holds less every day.

Agreed. GSM is growing stronger in the US BUT the current weakness of GSM in the US is an unavoidable factor (and only one part of my argument).

Fact One: GSM is the dominant mobile phone tech in the world.
Fact Two: That makes GSM markets the most viable for new technology.
Fact Three: GSM only markets have a depth of mobile phone use that is not seen in a fractured market like the US. This means huge money making services such as SMS texting and MMS can recoup the costs of bringing new technology to market.

In my school there are over 1000 pupils (11-18 ). I would estimate that only a handful (in the tens) do not have mobile phones. They are used to using their phones daily for texting, games and voice calls. You would be hard pressed to find anyone without a mobile in the UK - they exist but they are few (and we are well behind most of Europe in this!).

Walking through my local town on an average day there are people using their phones all over the place. Walking around in New York it seemed to be fairly unusual to see someone on a mobile. The contrast was enough to be noticeable.

So it isn't just numbers of users - it is market penetration, extra value services, potential upgraders and the knowledge that a GSM phone will sell throughout entire countries and continents - how much interest can these companies be expected to have in selling to a fractured market that underuses mobile services? Obviously some - but it is hardly a surprise that the US market comes way down the list...

I have no interest in which is better out of CDMA or GSM. That is as irrelevant as arguing whether Betamax was better than VHS. The dominant standard is GSM, the major GSM markets will, therefore, lead the way.

[Janak Parekh]

Walking through my local town on an average day there are people using their phones all over the place. Walking around in New York it seemed to be fairly unusual to see someone on a mobile. The contrast was enough to be noticeable.
How long ago have you been in NYC, Duncan? If anything, I miss the days when every person didn't have a wireless phone.

I have no interest in which is better out of CDMA or GSM. That is as irrelevant as arguing whether Betamax was better than VHS.
Indeed, since GSM is going CDMA, the argument gets more interesting in the long-term.

--janak

[Duncan]

How long ago have you been in NYC, Duncan? If anything, I miss the days when every person didn't have a wireless phone.

About a year - and I'm sorry but on a straight comparison mobile use in NYC was very low key...

Indeed, since GSM is going CDMA, the argument gets more interesting in the long-term.

Well - in theory GSM will be succeeded by WCDMA - which is almost but not quite the same thing - but which may mean an eventual universal 3G standard. I'm not going to hold my breath though. GSM/GPRS is going to be dominant for several years to come since WCDMA is proving to be less than compelling as a mass appeal technology...

I think guessing the future (even 5 years from now) of mobile phone tech is a bit like guessing the existence of DVDs back when the VHS/Betamax war was running - i.e. it is unlikely to fit in with any of the models we currently have...

However - I'll guess this - GSM/GPRS will still be the dominant tech for a while and conventional CDMA will continue to have severe limits to its expansion...

[Janak Parekh]

About a year - and I'm sorry but on a straight comparison mobile use in NYC was very low key...
Heh. I wonder if it's penetration, as virtually everyone I know has a mobile phone, or just usage patterns. Agreed, mobile phone use is greater in Europe, but I like to think we're not that far behind. ;)

Well - in theory GSM will be succeeded by WCDMA - which is almost but not quite the same thing - but which may mean an eventual universal 3G standard. I'm not going to hold my breath though. GSM/GPRS is going to be dominant for several years to come since WCDMA is proving to be less than compelling as a mass appeal technology...
Well, that's what I meant by "interesting". The upgrade roadmap from GSM -> WCDMA is tougher than IS-95 CDMA -> cdma2000, so we might see more compelling implementations of the latter before the former.

However - I'll guess this - GSM/GPRS will still be the dominant tech for a while and conventional CDMA will continue to have severe limits to its expansion...
Probably. Still, that doesn't really excuse MS from partnering with a CDMA manufacturer, like Samsung, to get the CDMA Smartphone out of the door. Samsung's made a lot of money on CDMA phones, despite the relatively smaller market. Otherwise, why are they releasing the SPH-i700 Pocket PC Phone?

--janak

[Duncan]

Heh. I wonder if it's penetration, as virtually everyone I know has a mobile phone, or just usage patterns.

One thing I know - so many times I've watched Buffy, when one character desperately has to let another know something from across town, and found myself thinking that if it was set in the UK they'd just use their mobiles... :wink:

Well, that's what I meant by "interesting". The upgrade roadmap from GSM -> WCDMA is tougher than IS-95 CDMA -> cdma2000, so we might see more compelling implementations of the latter before the former.

Maybe BUT most first and second gen WCDMA phones will be combo GPRS units making the upgrade path actually smoother in some respects. If I were to buy one of the new 3G phones in the UK - it will shift to GPRS whenever I enter an area without coverage. Even in the UK, with much resistance to 3G, there will be two 3G networks by the end of 2003. Then there is a new GPRS tech, a kind of 2.75G, that will improve speeds of GPRS phones dramatically - offering speeds that rival CDMA2000 (not sure how it works mind!).