Software Activation Isn't the Problem. Why Don't They DEACTIVATE the Damn Stuff?

[Jason Dunn]

I must be having Dennis Miller flashbacks from that eBook I read, because, baby, I'm in a ranting mood tonight! :twisted: I've spend the better part of the weekend <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/newrig.jpg">getting my rig set up all nice and proper.</a> I'm Type A to the extreme (just ask the poor review team when it comes to following our templates), so I like to have everything just right.<br /><br />Well, it came time to install the <a href="http://www.microsoft.com/windows/plus/dme/dmehome.asp">Windows XP Plus! Digital Media Edition</a> that I had purchased. Actually, it was purchased by a friend of mine in the US, because apparently it's just too damn hard to accept a credit card from someone in Canada...but that's a rant for another day. I had installed this software onto my laptop and my desktop, but had never really used it. So I un-installed it from both devices, then installed it on my new machine. I went through the activation process, and surprise, it wouldn't activate. Therin lies the problem with software activation: it only works if the software is DEACTIVATED when it's un-installed. If the components to control activations and serial numbers are already in place for activation, how hard can it be to have the un-install routine sent a user-authorized data stream to the server saying "Hey, I've been un-installed, so free up an install key again". <br /><br />Having no other choice, I called the product activation line. I've used it before for another Microsoft product (same type of scenario), so I was expecting the process to be quick and easy. It wasn't. After going through the mind-numbing process of entering the long 42 digit code into their phone system, it didn't work, and I was transferred to a live person. The first call ended when the tech said that the install key I gave him and verified three times, was "bad". His only suggestion was for me to un-install then reinstall the software. &lt;sigh> I did so, and called back several hours later. After rattling off the 42 digit number, the product activation woman informed me that her system was down and that I should call back later. &lt;sigh><br /><br />I've now just gotten off the phone, for the third time today, and actually have the product activated. Wow! Only three calls and 30 minutes of my day wasted. There's nothing worse then technology that's only implemented half way - wake up Microsoft, and deactivate your products when they're deactivated! It almost makes me think that some clever VP at Microsoft said <i>"Hey, I know...let's make people buy new software for every computer they have, even if it's no longer on that computer! Yeah, that's the ticket..."</i> You laugh, but I've heard stranger things come from the mouths of people in the software industry... :roll:

[jimski]

Now if everyone who has ever had a problem with a Microsoft product would just send Bill an invoice :P for the time they invested (wasted) installing or otherwise fixing something that developers overlooked, maybe somebody at Microsoft just might get the point 8O .

[ThomasC22]

It's sad, and maybe I shouldn't be telling anyone about this, but it's come to the point where I actually purchase the software, then go to a warez site and download the cracked version, and install the cracked version instead of the package I just purchased.

It's the only way I found to (A) still feel that I'm doing the right thing in purchasing the software I use while at the same time (B) avoid the hassle of all the hoops that Microsoft makes you jump through.

Microsoft is very much getting out of control at this point, but, what can you do...

[klinux]

This is almost as bad as the Intuit Taxcut fiasco where its DRM is not uninstalled when you uninstall the program. Furthermore, the program writes to the boot sector which remains after formatting! Grrr.

[Pony99CA]

I'm surprised you're just finding this out now, what with all the software you use. When I got my iPAQ 3870 in January 2002, I gave my old 3650 to my wife. Outlook 2002 came with my 3870, so I decided to install it on the laptop that the 3650 would sync with. That went fine.

When I went to install Outlook 2002 on my laptop, I was told that it was already activated. No problem, I told myself, I'll uninstall it from the other laptop. Of course, that didn't work.

I called Microsoft, and they gave me the ridiculously long key, and that worked, but I asked the rep why they didn't deactivate automatically when the software was uninstalled. Apparently they haven't made much progress in over a year.
:bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words:

Intuit's TurboTax has also been taking heat for their product activation technology. Let's hope enough people complain that companies decide activation isn't consumer-friendly.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

This is almost as bad as the Intuit Taxcut fiasco where its DRM is not uninstalled when you uninstall the program. Furthermore, the program writes to the boot sector which remains after formatting! Grrr.
Just for the record, Intuit makes TurboTax, as my previous post mentioned. H&R Block makes TaxCut, which doesn't require activation (as far as I know).

Steve

[Peter Foot]

After going through the mind-numbing process of entering the long 42 digit code into their phone system, it didn't work, and I was transferred to a live person. The first call ended when the tech said that the install key I gave him and verified three times, was "bad". His only suggestion was for me to un-install then reinstall the software.

This sounds typical of most call centres if they don't know how to do something (or don't want to do it) then they just fob you off with some nonsense because they know that when you call again you'll be speaking to somebody else anyway.... :roll:

[ChristopherTD]

But what happens when the company that has to "activate" your software is no longer there when it comes time to reinstall/move to a new PC or PPC?

If the product was not critical then you are merely locked out of your software, if the product is critical then you are screwed. I don't mind purchasing software for which I get a registration key that is used to activate the product. That will work whenever I need to reinstall (hopefully).

This step of phoning home to activate is so flaky, only inconveniences the legitimate purchaser, and means that you are dependent on the survival and goodwill of the supplier for continued use of your purchase.

I have just spend several hundred dollars on PPC software for my new iPaq 5450 (my first ever PocketPC) and the machine is a little unstable. If HP don't post fixes for some of the issues I can see being in the market for a new PPC later in the year. I wonder how much of the software that I have purchased will not install on a different unit?

I don't even dare think of rebuilding my Thinkpad which is now almost 2 years old and has so much software "activated" on it it would take days to get it all working again.

In the "old days" when enthusiasts swapped floppy disks of software copy protection was eventually dropped as counter-productive and futile, but now the Internet is such an effective distribution medium I can't see protection ever being dropped.

There must be a middle ground somewhere that protects the software author, but doesn't prevent customers from using what they have purchased.

[Ed Hansberry]

It's sad, and maybe I shouldn't be telling anyone about this, but it's come to the point where I actually purchase the software, then go to a warez site and download the cracked version, and install the cracked version instead of the package I just purchased.
I am getting there myself Thomas.

[XmanHP548]

This is exactly why I switched over to a Mac last year. Steve Jobs (at this point anyway) and most Apple developers are a lot more laid back about software installation (and copyright matters for digital media) than Bill and MS. Thank God I will NEVER NEVER have to call any production activation line!
Incidentally, I have Mac: Office X from the MS MacBu and it simply use the old serial code verification upon installation...Guess those guys realize that most Mac users would rather slit their own wrists than to have to call MS for "permission" to use software. :twisted:

[trachy]

You guys think this is bad? You ain't seen nothin' yet. Check out this article entitled "2003 and Beyond -- Technology trends that will affect your business and how you do business."

http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html

I just got a heads up about this editorial this morning from Patrick Crispen of the Internet Tourbus. It's supposed to be a commentary of what's to come, but it deals heavily with Microsoft and what we can expect from their upcoming release, Longhorn.

Grab your stress ball, curl up in the fetal position, and enjoy!

- Drew

[SofaTater]

I also got bitten by the TurboTax activation thing... Installed TurboTax on the old computer and got our tax return started. Then we got a new computer and I tried installing TurboTax on the new one -- can't do it because it's already been activated on a different machine. The website says to call back Monday through Friday during business hours, which is when I'm out of town working for my client and not in front my home computer...

Luckily, found that the new Gateway computer came with a coupon for a free copy of TurboTax -- guess I'll just go by the Gateway store and pick up the free copy to save myself the hassle of dealing with Intuit's tech support...

[Gary Garland, Esq.]

I'm surprised you're just finding this out now, what with all the software you use. When I got my iPAQ 3870 in January 2002, I gave my old 3650 to my wife. Outlook 2002 came with my 3870, so I decided to install it on the laptop that the 3650 would sync with. That went fine.

When I went to install Outlook 2002 on my laptop, I was told that it was already activated. No problem, I told myself, I'll uninstall it from the other laptop. Of course, that didn't work.

I called Microsoft, and they gave me the ridiculously long key, and that worked, but I asked the rep why they didn't deactivate automatically when the software was uninstalled. Apparently they haven't made much progress in over a year.
:bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words: :bad-words:

Intuit's TurboTax has also been taking heat for their product activation technology. Let's hope enough people complain that companies decide activation isn't consumer-friendly.

Steve
i had a similar problem when i went to install outlook 2002 which came with my ipaq 3975 - i had to call microsoft for activation, etc. - so when i had to reformat the drive, it was potentially easier to use a warez version than my original outlook 2002 cd! now, i'm not saying i did that, ;) but i am saying it was a royal pain. now that i'm getting a new notebook, i don't think i'm going to even crack open my original outlook 2002 cd - not worth the hassles

[RobertCF]

And people wonder why I tell them to stay away from ANYTHING "XP"? I beta tested Windows XP and, while I liked how much more crash proof it was, there was not enough in it to overcome the stupid "activation/deactivation" crud M$ is forcing down our throats. I have yet to change from recommending anyone use anything other than 2K products--they're stable, established, and don't come with all the heartache.

[CTSLICK]

You guys think this is bad? You ain't seen nothin' yet. Check out this article entitled "2003 and Beyond -- Technology trends that will affect your business and how you do business."

http://www.aaxnet.com/editor/edit029.html

I just got a heads up about this editorial this morning from Patrick Crispen of the Internet Tourbus. It's supposed to be a commentary of what's to come, but it deals heavily with Microoft and what we can expect from their upcoming release, Longhorn.

Grab your stress ball, curl up in the fetal position, and enjoy!

- Drew

Good God...I want to throw all of this into the FUD bin but it sounds remarkably on target on Microsoft. Can anyone vouch for this guy?

[isrjt]

That is one sweet looking set up you have there. I have wanted the 2 monitor deal for some time. Very nice indeed.

[trachy]

Good God...I want to throw all of this into the FUD bin but it sounds remarkably on target on Microsoft. Can anyone vouch for this guy?

Here's the Toubus article from Patrick Crispen to lend some perspective:

http://listserv.aol.com/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0303B&L=tourbus&P=R162

- Drew

[Janak Parekh]

FWIW, Microsoft's activation is a walk in the park compared to Intuit's Turbotax. Turbotax actually writes to the boot sector of your hard drive during activation to prevent tampering. That's way over the line, in my opinion. A lawsuit (http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,109720,00.asp) has been filed against Intuit.

In any case, I am lucky enough to be working with Volume License versions of Office and Windows XP, neither of which have activation. The notion of using an activated OS is unnerving to me (oops, you changed the config, reactivate or you can't use me!) -- so I either use XP Volume License or deploy 2000 wherever I can.

Microsoft, and even more so Intuit, is losing a lot of goodwill by their measures. If I'm forced to activate in the future, I too may be exploring other OS options.

--janak

[fmcpherson]

Hey Jason, is that a USB hub with a built-in picture frame, or something that you made yourself?

[Steven Cedrone]

Hey Jason, is that a USB hub with a built-in picture frame, or something that you made yourself?

It looks like one of these... (http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/proddetail.html?sess=no&language=English+US&prodkey=XHub7plus&cat=%2fTechnology%2fUSB%2fUSB+Hubs)

Steve

[Jason Dunn]

Hey Jason, is that a USB hub with a built-in picture frame, or something that you made yourself?

It looks like one of these... (http://www.adaptec.com/worldwide/product/proddetail.html?sess=no&language=English+US&prodkey=XHub7plus&cat=%2fTechnology%2fUSB%2fUSB+Hubs)

Yup. Nice little USB 2.0 hub. :D

[Jason Dunn]

And people wonder why I tell them to stay away from ANYTHING "XP"? I beta tested Windows XP and, while I liked how much more crash proof it was, there was not enough in it to overcome the stupid "activation/deactivation" crud M$ is forcing down our throats. I have yet to change from recommending anyone use anything other than 2K products--they're stable, established, and don't come with all the heartache.

I really don't have a problem with software Activation - I've never had a single problem with it. Activation is always instant and easy, and I've never had any activated product deactivate on me. The problem is what I try to move/re-install the software - that's why if the software deactivated itself upon an uninstall, it would completely solve the problem.

A company wanting to protect itself from piracy is ok by me - although I keep asking myself if product activation is lessening piracy, why haven't the prices for Microsoft software gone down? :? Rhetorical question, I know.

[jeffmd]

How do you deactivate a key while the program is still installed?

[Jason Dunn]

How do you deactivate a key while the program is still installed?

You can't - that's the crux of this whole problem. It would be so simple if there was an option under the HELP menu that said "Deactivate this product", and it gave a nice pop-up warning window that explained what this would do and when it should be used.

[Bill Gunn]

It's sad, and maybe I shouldn't be telling anyone about this, but it's come to the point where I actually purchase the software, then go to a warez site and download the cracked version, and install the cracked version instead of the package I just purchased.
...

I suspect a lot of people, like me, just don't buy as much as they would otherwise. Since I got Windows XP and Office XP I have cut way back on software because I don't want to do ANYTHING that might break the system and require me to re-install XP. I also can't upgrade my hardware a piece at a time like I used to. For instance, I would buy a new MB and RAM today but I don't want to go through the re-activate nightmare with XP. :roll:

[Jonathan1]

I suspect a lot of people, like me, just don't buy as much as they would otherwise. Since I got Windows XP and Office XP I have cut way back on software because I don't want to do ANYTHING that might break the system and require me to re-install XP. I also can't upgrade my hardware a piece at a time like I used to. For instance, I would buy a new MB and RAM today but I don't want to go through the re-activate nightmare with XP. :roll:

Its called getting a password key generator that can create corp keys that can't be deactivated. I'm not advocating this method as a way to steal from Microsoft but it’s a legit work around for Microsoft’s draconian activation scheme if you purchased the software. Microsoft may see this in an entirely diff light but if:
1. I spent the money on the product.
2. I activated it once to let them know I have the product.

I _believe_ that I should be able to use any type of cracking util I want afterwards.

Microsoft should be thanking the people that made these generators. Yes its a given that there are people out there that are using this app to steal Windows XP but in my case it gave me a reason to buy Windows XP Pro. If I didn't have this workaround I wouldn't have touched Windows XP in any way shape or form. The software may be Microsoft’s but the nanosecond I lay my cash down for it I shouldn't have to ask uncle Gates for the keys to my OS.

[tonyv]

Once Microsoft stops supporting Win2k, I'm no longer using their software. I WILL NEVER pay for copy-protected software. Do you hear me Microsoft? We fought that battle in the 80's and won, and now we have to fight it again. Just stop buying the crap!

[Janak Parekh]

I _believe_ that I should be able to use any type of cracking util I want afterwards.
I hate to say this, but until the EULA with the associated product is proven wrong or unenforceable, this is indeed illegal.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

I _believe_ that I should be able to use any type of cracking util I want afterwards.
I hate to say this, but until the EULA with the associated product is proven wrong or unenforceable, this is indeed illegal.

Not only does using a password generator likely violate the EULA, which is probably a civil issue, but I wouldn't be surprised if producing a password generator violates the DMCA, which could make it a criminal offense. A password generator used to get around activation/registration could be viewed as a means of circumventing copyright protection, thus making the DMCA applicable.

Steve (I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on the Web)

[jeffmd]

They cant do anything. they would have to prove you used such a program. If they catch you offering the program in sany way (aka download sites) then they can force you to remove it, and im pretty sure if theres a MS employee right behind you who sees this on your HD (yea, right) then they can force you to remove it, but once the key is in place, all they can do is force the removal of the installation of windows. Theres no law in accepting and using a cd key that you don't know is illegal.

Saying that, how many MS products do you use? I see people saying they dont buy much software these days because of this. excuse me? Who else does this? I guess that stupid tax program does, but thats all ive heard up to now. Even game makers, while requiring unique keys so you can play online, do not tie their key to your computers configuration. I can have my key on 12 computers and have it work, as long as only one is online at a time.

[ctmagnus]

I've reactivated the same Office XP CD at least four times now, all using the online-only format. 8O 8)

[Janak Parekh]

I've reactivated the same Office XP CD at least four times now, all using the online-only format. 8O 8)
That should work only if you reinstall it on the same computer. If you move it, it should fail (eventually; there seems to be some randomization in the activation process...)

--janak

[ctmagnus]

I've reactivated the same Office XP CD at least four times now, all using the online-only format. 8O 8)
That should work only if you reinstall it on the same computer. If you move it, it should fail (eventually; there seems to be some randomization in the activation process...)

--janak

The machine originally shipped as a dual boot WinME/Win2k, each with an installation of Office. I've reinstalled Win2k (+ Office) on it at least 3x (ME possibly once) and I used my obligatory second machine privelege on the machine I'm typing on now, and it's on the second install.

[Pony99CA]

They cant do anything. they would have to prove you used such a program.
Actually, I bet they don't. If they find you with an installation of a program that you don't have the CD or a receipt for, I bet they can bust you. There's the legal doctrine of res ipsa loquitur ("the thing speaks for itself"). You're using software, you can't prove it's yours, it's therefore pirated. QED

If they catch you offering the program in sany way (aka download sites) then they can force you to remove it, and im pretty sure if theres a MS employee right behind you who sees this on your HD (yea, right) then they can force you to remove it, but once the key is in place, all they can do is force the removal of the installation of windows.
They can force you to remove it and probably prosecute you under the DMCA if you refuse.

Theres no law in accepting and using a cd key that you don't know is illegal.
Really? Have you heard of laws against receiving stolen property? If you got a key without a good faith belief that you had a right to use that key, you could be liable. Not knowing that it's illegal may not be good enough; you may need to believe it's legal.

Home users may not have to worry, but the Business Software Alliance and Microsoft sent out threatening "register pirated software or else" letters a while back. I had a very small home-based business at one time and I got them.

Steve

[Kati Compton]

I've now just gotten off the phone, for the third time today, and actually have the product activated. Wow! Only three calls and 30 minutes of my day wasted. There's nothing worse then technology that's only implemented half way - wake up Microsoft, and deactivate your products when they're deactivated! It almost makes me think that some clever VP at Microsoft said "Hey, I know...let's make people buy new software for every computer they have, even if it's no longer on that computer! Yeah, that's the ticket..." You laugh, but I've heard stranger things come from the mouths of people in the software industry... :roll:

I'm not laughing. That's *EXACTLY* how it works for lots of software bundled with a computer purchase. Even if you put your next computer together yourself and remove everything from the old computer, you're NOT allowed to install it onto any other system. The OS is a prime example. You're not allowed to destroy your old box completely and then use that copy of the OS (if it's Microsoft) on a new machine.

[Kati Compton]

I really don't have a problem with software Activation - I've never had a single problem with it. Activation is always instant and easy, and I've never had any activated product deactivate on me. The problem is what I try to move/re-install the software - that's why if the software deactivated itself upon an uninstall, it would completely solve the problem.


Activation is a little more complex for me, as I refuse to do the online one, only phone-based. I did it this way because I don't want to give MS permission to send info about my computer (other than what they can fit in that encoded string of an activation code) to their company. Frankly, I don't think it's any of their business. Of course, I later found out that even if you don't activate it (if, for example, you're testing out a few systems before you decide on one), it lets MS know if you've installed it. :evil:

I don't think they have the right to know what's on my computer. I resent the attitude that I'm guilty of piracy until I prove I'm innocent by activating it. And like others have said - if we do have this, why isn't XP cheaper?