Should PocketPCThoughts charge for content and/or services?

[Cortex]

I was somewhat taken aback by this (http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=86575&PHPSESSID=4e59c46f90a4d8aa65f7abef3e773c05) and was wondering what other people think?

PocketPCThoughts is an awesome site and reflects the hard work and dedication of many people, but one aspect of the community for which I personally have a great deal of respect is the free distribution of ideas and information that the internet allows. Sadly this idea is under constant attack by the pursuit of the almighty $$$.

One of the primary difficulties of capitalism as a societal model (aside from the inherent need to consume/waste) is the promotion of ones self interests or the interests of a business model over the interests of other individuals in the community or at the expense of the community itself.

Often this is summed up in the comment "hey, thats business!" or "hey, welcome to the real world" or "gotta make ends meet", but I can only wonder if the end will really justify the means....

Is charging for content or services really necessary?

[PetiteFlower]

No one is talking about charging for access to the site. Everything you can now do for free, you will be able to continue to do for free. What they are talking about is enhanced/added features which will be available to paid subscribers; it will be a totally optional service. No one's going to take away your free message boards.

[TopDog]

If chargeing for enhanced/added features will decrease the quality and frequency of the free articles/forums, this site will loose it's popularity faster than a speeding bullet.

I for one can't see paying for this site... there are plenty of other's "almost" as good, and I don't see what enhanced/added feature would make it worth it for me.

[ux4484]

again.....mobile (PDA/smartphone) access=no ads.
If you're going to provide mobile optimized content, it's a lot of work to do it right (I'm not talking AvantGo or Mazingo, I'm talking real mobilized web surfing). What is the incentive of doing all that work (and additional server space) for gratis? Goodwill? How about a few sheckels from the folks who shell hundreds/thousands of $$$ every year to use the stuff this site is base on?
Goodwill is them leaving the rest of the site as accessable as it is and charging only for mobile content, which seems to be their intention.

Wait to see the finished mobile product before saying "Is it right?" I'm sure it will be very cool, and you'll be able to test drive it for a few days to see if you like it.

[Cortex]

For each of the situations think about what you would do and why.


SITUATION #1:
A person is walking down the street and drops a dollar.

You are walking behind them and clearly see that they have dropped a dollar from their pocket.

Do you...

a. Pick up the dollar, put it in your pocket, follow the person into a dark alley and mug them?

b. Pick up the dollar and walk away?

c. Pick up the dollar, tell the person what has happened and offer them 25 cents?

d. Pick up the dollar, tell the person what has happened and offer them 50 cents?

e. Pick up the dollar, tell the person what has happened and offer them 75 cents?

f. Pick up the dollar, tell the person what has happened and give it back?

d. Pick up the dollar, run ahead of the person and place the dollar on the ground so they will find it without knowing what has happened?



SITUATION #2
You and another person are both given $100 dollars.
Each of you have the option of keeping the money or giving it all away.

If you both keep the money, the money is taken away and you both get nothing.

If one of you keeps the money and the other gives it away, the person keeping the money can keep it and the one that gave it away gets nothing.

If you both give the money away you both get $25 dollars.

What would you do?



SITUATION #3
You are diving a train that is approaching a fork in the tracks. On the intercom the controller informs you a group of people are standing on the tracks and will die if the train continues on its current path, but if you turn the train to the other track there is one person standing on the track who will die. What do you do?

SITUATION #3 (reprised)
You are a passenger on a train and notice that there is a button within your reach that says "Switch tracks". You notice that a fork in the tracks is approaching when you overhear the controller on the intercom inform the driver of the train that there is a group of people are standing on the tracks and will die if the train continues on its current path, but if the train is turned to the other track there is one person standing on the track who will die. What do you do?

SITUATION #3 (reprised again)
You are standing at a train terminal waiting for a train. A crowd has gathered listening to someone speak and they are standing on the tracks looking away from the approaching train. You realize that the train will crush the crowd and you do not have time to save them but you also realize that by pushing the person standing in front of you onto the tracks that they will stop the train. What would you do?

[brntcrsp]

also, from what Jason et al have said there will be no content difference between the full site and the mobile site. you don't want mobile, don't pay for it and you'll get the same quality that you've come to expect.

[bdegroodt]

This is something near and dear to my site. I run a "members" site that I'm trying to convert to paid as well. For a variety of reasons, but namely because my time is worth money, I'm thinking of trying to convert free to paid as well. It's a hard sell. The angle I've been taking is that advertising can create bias in reporting (More so in what I'm working on than here.). However, web users seem to be stuck on not paying for content still.

Given the right content and the right value above those of the free alternative, paid content should be a viable business for those that have something to say that's worth paying for...ramble ramble ramble.

I believe in paid content. I pay for the WSJ.

[PetiteFlower]

Anyone stupid enough to stand on train tracks deserves whatever they get. Seriously, didn't their parents teach them ANYTHING??

I really don't see what ANY of that has to do with whether there should be an option to pay for an enhanced version of this site though.

There's nothing on the site NOW that I would pay for, I'll look at ads for it but other then that I don't think it's worth paying for. Not because the developers time isn't worth anything but because they seem to be able to keep the site running ok with advertising money, and compared to the "prevailing standard" of what's available for free on the web, articles and message boards aren't pay-worthy features.

If I wanted an ad-free site, though, of course I would expect to pay for it. And if the features offered through the paid subscription were features I would use, then I would certainly consider paying for them(depending on the price of course). Fully functional mobile sites are NOT something that is generally widely available for free out there. I don't see anything wrong on principal with offering additional services for money.

People get so freaked out whenever anyone mentions paying for web sites, y'all really need to just chill out and relax.

[Kati Compton]

I said "Maybe" because the $ amount and the list of content/services weren't listed.

If it's $1/month for what's here now? Yes.

If it's $10/month for an ad-free version? No - it wouldn't be worth it to me.

EDIT: The "no" is for whether or not I would pay it, not whether or not I think they should charge.

[hulksmash]

I answered yes, since its up to the site owners. However, I assume that only the people who can afford it would be able toarticipate in those areas fo sale, which would skew the results of that very exclusive area. The other side of it is that the site owners' time is worth money and they should be paid some amount for the wonderful job you all continue to do. I doubt that I would be able to participate, but I would like to, knowing the quality of your work that has preceded the for pay services.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

I'm very much surprised so many people say No. Jason, Janak and the others work their butts off... For free...

They maintain an excellent resource (frankly, the best on the web, by far) for free...

They provide personal support for products they don't sell... For free...

And people would actually say they don't have the right to charge?

Fine... Me personally? I'm more than willing to pay. I've gotten plenty out of this site and definitely feel it's worth a few sheckels. If you don't, so be it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[Brad Adrian]

... there are plenty of other's "almost" as good...
BITE YOUR TONGUE!!! ;)

[nosmohtac]

I answered no before reading and understanding what the post was about.
After reading the previous posts I would definitely vote yes for mobile content. I don't use it now, but as long as it doesn't change what's available on the regular site, I'm all for it.
If they're thinking about charging for it, my guess is it will be well worth the bucks. Especially if it is put together by the same team running the site now. :!:

[vincentsiaw]

i will say maybe, depends what i will get for my bucks, lets see what thoughts team got to offer!

[TopDog]

... there are plenty of other's "almost" as good...
BITE YOUR TONGUE!!! ;)
No I said "almost" didn't I :-)

Well if it's talk about paying for the ad-free mobile site, I would think again... espesially if you make the forums usable on a mobile device (PPC). But as someone else said, it's all about the price!

$1-$5 a month for a excelent ad-free mobile site with forums designed for a mobile device... yes, I could pay for that. $10... nah!

[hollis_f]

I'm a 'maybe'.

It depends on what was available and how much it cost. Although I'd spend a few quid a month for what we're getting now, I don't think the forums would be the same if they were only accesible to paying customers.

[shindullin]

$12 to $20, maybe even $30 a year for mobile access to everything you can get now on the desktop seems like a good deal. I don't have remote access now, but I would definitely think about it if I did and the price was in the range stated.
The news gathering alone is so good that it would be worth some sort of subscription, it shouldn't be a big deal paying some money for the ability to access it from anywhere. Gotta make a living somehow. Charging for mobile access seems like as good a way as any.
As for of pay for service ideas, I guess it would depend on what it was. I just spent $70 buying legal books of the Nolo press website. Makes $20 a year seem like very little but I REALLY NEEDED the info in those books. If the content is compelling enough, it's worth the money. Simple as that.


Edit: If you're thinking about money generating plans, what about something similar to the membership that Brighthand set up? I would add the twist of making more like public broadcasting membership in the US by giving membership rewards like, a newsletter and or access to advanced software demos from sponsors, discounts of products, and maybe prizes and gifts from your "sponsors". In a volunteer world, you have to be creative in how you're going to make money.

[trachy]

I'm very much surprised so many people say No. Jason, Janak and the others work their butts off... For free...

Sure they work their butts off - but for free? What about ad revenues? I have never run a site of this magnitude, so I won't pretend to know the logistics; however, with the traffic this site generates, there has to be some money being made off banner ads, etc.

One business model I've never seen when it comes to pay-for-content, is one where paying subscribers are spared all ads and freeloaders are bombarded with them. Now, for that kind of treament I'd glad pay a reasonable fee. No flashing banners, no pop-ups, and no spam (btw, thank you PPCT for not spamming us). Put those cookies to some good use!

- Drew

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Sure they work their butts off - but for free? What about ad revenues? I have never run a site of this magnitude, so I won't pretend to know the logistics; however, with the traffic this site generates, there has to be some money being made off banner ads, etc.

I'd be willing to be that most of what this site generates in revenue goes back into the site for bandwidth and hosting costs. I run a much smaller site than this and I know from experience that even with only a few loyal readers, bandwidth is always a problem.

These guys have a lot more than that, and I'm sure they're paying through the nose for it...

[Janak Parekh]

I'd be willing to be that most of what this site generates in revenue goes back into the site for bandwidth and hosting costs.
Not only that, the poor server is dying under the load right now. The machine is very close to saturation, and Jason is in the process of budgeting a big upgrade. Unfortunately, money doesn't grow on trees. :cry:

From what I've perceived about the upcoming member services, it seems like it'll be a very good deal and won't sacrifice the free user's experience at all. Let's not worry too much just yet; Jason's very aware of how this community was built, and he's not some high-tower CEO; he's a very "down-to-earth" guy who surfs the web as much as the rest of us. :)

Salon, on the other hand, is in big trouble...

--janak

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Not only that, the poor server is dying under the load right now. The machine is very close to saturation, and Jason is in the process of budgeting a big upgrade. Unfortunately, money doesn't grow on trees. :cry:

Somehow I had a feeling that was the reason. Well, as one of the most vociferous (spelling?) supporters, I'm more than willing to toss in some coin to keep this site around. It's way too good not to.

[Reinaldo]

Ditto.

[trachy]

I'd be willing to be that most of what this site generates in revenue goes back into the site for bandwidth and hosting costs. I run a much smaller site than this and I know from experience that even with only a few loyal readers, bandwidth is always a problem.

These guys have a lot more than that, and I'm sure they're paying through the nose for it...

Ok, I'll buy that.

Next question. Is there another way to generate revenue from this type of site other than advertising and user fees? It seems that paradigm still pervades after all these years for those not selling something tangible.

[Janak Parekh]

Somehow I had a feeling that was the reason. Well, as one of the most vociferous (spelling?) supporters, I'm more than willing to toss in some coin to keep this site around. It's way too good not to.
It's not the only reason. My general point is, and I think you already agree, the costs of running the site are substantial.

Next question. Is there another way to generate revenue from this type of site other than advertising and user fees? It seems that paradigm still pervades after all these years for those not selling something tangible.
If you know of a good way, let us know. You could revolutionize the Internet. :lol:

Seriously, outside of corporate sponsorship, I don't know of models that really work.

--janak

[Gen-M]

I am not sure which way to vote here.
On the one hand I visit this site one or more times a day, 7 days a week - so I must be getting some value from it 8O
On the other - I don't pay for any other web site I visit :roll:

In reading this thread, and thinking of the many similar threads I've read across the web, I began to wonder if we understand what it costs to run a site like this. :idea:

I've never seen a site publish its books. What would be the upside/downside of publishing the PocketPCThoughts financials so that the user base can understand the real issues? It is not like you would be giving the competition any strategic info is it? :wink:

This might let users understand the numbers involved, and motivate a for-pay service :)
On the other hand it might require a lot of question answering for the staff :?

[alandashby]

My personal feeling is that PocketPCthoughts is good enough of a site to have a paid service, however, the way that things work in this world is that someone will produce a site as good or even close and people will move over to it. There are so many great Pocket Pc sites that a paid service will lead to the end of visitors to Pocket Pc Thoughts, and if there are no visitors then there is no discussion board, and the news articles will drop in quality because many of them come from the discussion board. Just a thought. It also becomes a problem with images and copyrights.

[Mike Wagstaff]

A couple of issues...

1. As far as I'm aware, no Pocket PC Thoughts representative has ever stated that you will have to pay to access any part of the site that you can currently access. In other words, the site as it currently is will continue to be free.

There seems to be a misconception that the site will turn into a subscription-only affair, which clearly isn't going to happen. From what I understand, any paid-for elements will be in addition to the current site content.

2. I'm not confident that any form of subscriber option will prove successful.

I'm an xda owner who regularly accesses Pocket PC Thoughts on the go (in addition to regular desktop visits, naturally!), a relatively rare species as far as I'm aware. ;) Quite simply, unless the subscription service offers something out of this world (e.g. free hardware upgrade every 3 months), I won't be paying.

It's not that I don't love this site. It's not that I don't want it to become more successful than Google. It's not that I have a secret yearning for PalmOS to take over the world. It's just that I don't consider it important enough to pay for, and I have to admit that this would be the case even if the amount were relatively miniscule ($1/month).

I can't think of too many sites where subscriber options have made a big impact. I can, however, think of quite a few that haven't been a success. Reasons for this might include...

1. Yeah, websites are nice. But not generally nice enough to pay for.
2. There's generally always alternatives. Maybe not as good, of course, but free.
3. Subscriber options generally don't get good numbers, meaning subscriber-only content is targeted at a very small audience, meaning that there's usually not a lot of it...
4. Payment is a hassle. People are lazy. :(
5. I couldn't think of a 5, but it's a nice round number, so I included it anyway.

Having said all that, the Thoughts team isn't exactly renowned for lacking in creativity and talent. If any site can come up with a subscriber option that's innovative enough to actually get people to fork out some money, I'd feel pretty confident that this site might be the one to do it. I guess that I'm just a cynical pessmist... :twisted:

[FredMurphy]

Why shouldn't some of Pocket PC Thoughts be a paid service? We've all been using an excellent site for free and I understand nothing will be taken away from what you can still use without paying a bean.

The web provides a great business model in allowing people to try things before they pay, whether it's a website or software with limited functionality. I've personally been running a website for free for the last year. We've got 2500 users and fully expect some to drop off once we start asking for payment for the "premium" side of things.

If you don't think it's worth it then just don't pay. Just because you get a lot for free you shouldn't expect to get EVERYTHING for nothing.

[Job]

Beans, quid, shekels . . . I mean c'mon folks, If Jason is going to make you pay anything, it's going to be $CN. :wink: