Lindows Laptop Poised as PDA Killer? [Archive]

Jason Dunn

02-25-2003, 12:30 AM

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/mobilepc.htm' target='_blank'>http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/mobilepc.htm</a> </div>"High-speed wireless service is cropping up everywhere - "Starbucks," college campuses and anywhere people gather. Staying connected to your data whenever and wherever you need it is smart and Lindows.com answers the call with its brand new Lindows Mobile PC, an affordable, ultra-lightweight, go-anywhere notebook!...At just 2.9 lbs, the $799 Lindows Mobile PC is a featherweight, but it weighs in with such features as LindowsOS, a 933mhz VIA processor, 256MB RAM, USB 2.0, Firewire, Ethernet, and a crisp 12.1" TFT display, plus a PCMCIA slot to add even more functionality such as wireless networking. No other computer is as ideally suited for carry-around mobility as the affordable, under 3lb, Lindows Mobile PC. You'll find yourself taking it with you everywhere!" <img src="http://info.lindows.com/mobilepc/grfx/LMPC-front_thumb.jpg" /> I find two things interesting about this device: Lindows is trying to be the Microsoft of the Linux world, and they're getting a lot of flak from the Linux community for it. But the only way to release a consumer-friendly laptop based on top of a non-consumer friendly OS is to control it with an iron fist. Watching this process unfurl is fascinating! The other thing I found interesting is that rather than strictly comparing this laptop to other laptops running XP or OSX, they're also positioning it against Pocket PCs! Scroll to the bottom of the page and you'll see them compare it to an iPAQ Pocket PC. The comparison itself is fairly laughable - they're using a photo of the iPAQ 5450, and in the comparison they're saying the Lindows Laptop has a PCMCIA slot for wireless networking, while the Pocket PC does not. Duh. The 5450 has built-in WiFi! If they're going to do comparisons, they would do well to not insult the intelligence of their readers. Still, this is a tempting device for the price point - what do you think? Does a device like this stand a chance in the crowded mobile market?

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 12:41 AM

This is a great value. It makes a wonderful "basic" portable for novices. But if I were buying this system for a family member (or myself for that matter), the first thing I would do is install some flavor of Windows. Linux has a great deal of potential, but it is worthless as a consumer desktop client. For now anyway.

ux4484

02-25-2003, 12:45 AM

umm.....it's entirely possible that an off the shelf version of Windows won't run on it Foo.

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 12:50 AM

Are You Considering a PDA? The Lindows Mobile PC beats a PDA or Pocket PC hands-down.

Uh...sorry Lindows, but no. Your LINtop doesn't beat a PDA. First, try sticking that laptop in your pocket? Did it fit? Laptops suck at wearability. Didn't think so. PDAs beat notebooks PCs any day in the portability department.

Second, there are more applications for PPC than Linux.

Which would you rather have? A full function computing device with limited portability? Or a limited, but powerful, go anywhere mobile system?

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 12:53 AM

Mike Temporale

02-25-2003, 12:54 AM

Chris Edwards

02-25-2003, 12:58 AM

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 01:14 AM

There is a heap of Linux software out there.

Open source, not commercial.

That aside, I agree that a Laptop cannot replace a PDA for most people --it's just too darn big!

Yep. They are diometrically apposed form factors.

Jason Dunn

02-25-2003, 01:14 AM

Depends on the hardware config and driver support. If it can't run Windows, this device makes little sense. It might make sense in a business environment where a few specialized *NIX applications are used, but it makes ZERO sense as a consumer device. It doesn't run any off the shelf commercial applications, or games, accept the minute volume available for Linux...which is next to nothing. So why bother?

The biggest problem the Linux install that I tested is that the geeks who created the distro think it's a good thing to offer the user 10 different versions of everything. If the people at Lindows can create a distro with ONE of everything (one email client, one browser, etc.) they might be able to make something out of this. That's the real secret why Linux in it's current flavours will never succeed in the consumer market - people want something simple, not endless choices.

Bob Anderson

02-25-2003, 01:20 AM

While I love to see American ingenuity blossom...

This will be a failure from the word "go."

Why? The same reason that the Mac just can't get above 10-12% market share (max - even in it's heyday:)... SOFTWARE... (and, no, not the free stuff you can download, but the stuff you can put your hands on in a store...)

People buy what they are familiar with... and while I'm sure there will be a niche market for these portables, that's about all it will be, a niche. The "credentials" if you will, of something you pay for and can buy at a major store, is just too powerful a force to overcome with the average American consumers.

Now, in 20 years, when we start buying 50% of everything we buy off the web, something like this might have a chance. Until then Lindows is a Microsoft wannabe, and that's all they will ever be. (And if they lose their battle with Microsoft about their name, we may see them sink into obscurity fairly fast.)

OOPS... which is more powerful? a monopoly or a nimble, quick to react, innovator? I think we know all to well who wins :wink:

Macguy59

02-25-2003, 01:23 AM

umm.....it's entirely possible that an off the shelf version of Windows won't run on it Foo.

Depends on the hardware config and driver support. If it can't run Windows, this device makes little sense. It might make sense in a business environment where a few specialized *NIX applications are used, but it makes ZERO sense as a consumer device. It doesn't run any off the shelf commercial applications, or games, accept the minute volume available for Linux...which is next to nothing. So why bother?

Hmmmm. Foo your normally well informed but your comments regarding Linux are just wrong. It does run "off the shelf" apps and there are Linux ports of Windows games. Speaking of which there are a number of Windows games that run fine using WineX. But then again mobile users are not generally speaking gamers. The premise of the Lindows laptop is that users are looking for basic word processing, spreadhseet and some form of connectivity. Although paring it against a Pocket PC or even a Palm Tungsten is silly. Would I buy this ultralight? . . .Nope.

Macguy59

02-25-2003, 01:28 AM

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 01:28 AM

That's the real secret why Linux in it's current flavours will never succeed in the consumer market - people want something simple, not endless choices.

Exactly. The only "consumer viable" alternative to Windows is Macintosh. Linux has so much potential behind it, but the forces that be simply don't understand the typical end user. Your situation is the perfect example. I don't need or want 10 different GNU e-mail clients. I only need one really good commercial one. That's it. The same problem exists within the GUI itself. Do you want KDE or Gnome? Until the Linux community standardizes on ONE common interface, commercial software developers will never support this OS...and I know because I have friends who work at Adobe and Macromedia. This is their number one complaint; too much fragmentation.

Also, I get sick to the point of vomiting when Linux fanatic says..."And the command line is right there when you need it". When in the name of Grace will any consumer need a command line? The CLI is dead folks, get over it. The GUI won the interface war.

LarDude

02-25-2003, 01:34 AM

Second, there are more applications for PPC than Linux.

Being partially a Linux person, I'm going to have to disagree with that point. There is a heap of Linux software out there. Just take a look at a site like SourceForge (http://www.soureforge.net), or Freshmeat (http://www.freshmeat.net); I'd say the amount of Linux apps/games out there is more comparible to Windows than to Pocket PC.

That aside, I agree that a Laptop cannot replace a PDA for most people --it's just too darn big!

I'd have to agree there. The amount of stuff (especially GNU stuff)
that is available with a typical Linux distro is unbelievable...everything
but the kitchen sink. However, is any of this stuff ready for the consumer
desktop?....or consumer Pocket?.

dean_shan

02-25-2003, 01:35 AM

This seems like a good deal for the price.

Chris Spera

02-25-2003, 01:35 AM

This laptop is critically lame!

An external floppy drive is $53.
An external CD Drive is $249.
A 40GB HDD is an additional $44 (this isn't bad. Double your storage capacity for only $44..? I'd buy that for a dollar...or at least $44.)
You can also max out the memory at 512MB for an additional $179.

All said and told, this baby maxes out with a price tag of $1324!

I don't know about you; but I think Foo has a REALLY good point. If you pit this against a PDA (which I think is TOTALLY an Apples to Oranges comparison...(send me a private message if you get the joke I just made. :lol: )) then there can be no true comparison.

The LinTop is an ultra slim latptop. With no native floppy or CD drive, its going to be very hard to install 3rd party apps, so you'll have to at least cough up an extra $250 for the CD Drive, bringing the laptop over the $1000 mark.

If it TRULY is a laptop (as opposed to a PDA) is a bit on the not-portable side. Did you see those pics of Chris and Gretchen walking on the beach?? Who the heck is going to carry their laptop down to the BEACH (besides Chris P., I mean... His Geek-coefficient is WAY too high!) :roll: I wouldn't! With my luck, it would get full of sand or salt water; or both.

At 3lbs, its way to heavy to carry for any length of time, and way to bulky to be portable.

As, I think Foo or Jason said, the 5400 doesn't NEED a PC Card slot for wireless communications. It has EVERY form of widelyt used consumer wireless known to man built in!

Go back to the drawing board guys. You've got a good idea, but its only half baked right now. You need to shrink the form factor, lower the price (of components and add-ons). You also need to give this baby some sort of remarkable feature to set it apart from everyone and everything else if you're hoping to wedge yourself into the laptop market.

For $1324, I can get a MUCH better P4 machine with OfficeXP, Windows XP Pro, a large hard drive, AND an INTERNAL DVD/CD-RW drive.

As a PDA, this unit is pitiful. I can't easily carry it with me everywhere I go, and I don't know if I'd want to. Lindows seems to have for gotten that the "A" in PDA stands for "Assistant." This isn't a Personal Digital Everything, and even if it was, I don't see a compelling enough reason in its specs to give up what I have, switch from the industry standard Wintell platform, or to even give it a try.

It might be a cool toy; but I don't think it would live up to my expectations or my needs in real world situations.

Christopher Spera

Jason Dunn

02-25-2003, 01:42 AM

people want something simple, not endless choices.

Jason, I can't believe you just said that :? This is exactly the kind of warped reasoning die hard Palm users spout.

You have to take it in context - when I installed Linux, I was completely confused by all the crap they shoved on there! It's way too confusing for the user to have a choice of five different email clients, three different Web browsers, etc. Sure, it's great to have those AFTER they've become familiar with what's there, but it's sheer insanity to think it's ok to make them part of the default install. That would be like Windows XP shipping with 14 different notepad clients and 9 different calculators. What's the point?

I think the *idea* of Linux is great, but every implementation I've seen is flawed. I think the Lindows guys have the best shot of making Linux a consumer-friendly solution, but it's not like a PC running Lindows is magically 50% the cost of a Windows-based machine. Hardware is hardware, regardless of what it's running.

This really boils down to about $100 or so (the cost of Windows XP bundled with a PC) - for $100, who in their right mind would suggest that a Linux-OS based machine, in it's current form, would be a better deal for a consumer?

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 01:43 AM

It does run "off the shelf" apps

There are only a handful of commercial *off the shelf* apps for Linux, Corel for example. Beyond that, I have seen nothing.

and there are Linux ports of Windows games.

There are Mac game ports as well....they suck. Ports are a joke. Serious PC gamers do not run ports.

Speaking of which there are a number of Windows games that run fine using WineX.

Again, running an application in WINE does NOT count as a Linux application, anymore than running a Windows application on my iMac through Virtual PC counts as a Mac title.

bljarv

02-25-2003, 01:47 AM

I think that this begs the question, "How many of us who carry Pocket PC's also own laptops." I do, but don't carry my laptop around for wireless access. I don't even carry my CF Wireless card with me all of the time. I think Thoughts should post a survey to see how many Pocket PC owners also have a laptop.

Just wondering...

LarDude

02-25-2003, 01:52 AM

This really boils down to about $100 or so (the cost of Windows XP bundled with a PC) - for $100, who in their right mind would suggest that a Linux-OS based machine, in it's current form, would be a better deal for a consumer?

Not to split hairs too much, but it's probably a bit more if one adds in the cost of an "Office-type" suite or web-server software (but then again, a typical consumer wouldn't be running a web-server -- although, at the risk
of being flamed, one could ask the question "Why not?").

vincentsiaw

02-25-2003, 01:55 AM

lindows or not, $799 is still cheap!

st63z

02-25-2003, 01:57 AM

Macguy59

02-25-2003, 02:15 AM

I think the *idea* of Linux is great, but every implementation I've seen is flawed.

I rather think the "ideal" embraced by Linux intrinsically opposes the one-app-per-category-choose-for-me thing that you want :)

Secondly, I'm surprised Wal-Mart isn't offering this next to their $200 Lindows desktops...

Linux users would argue that Mr. Bill knows best is equally flawed. There isn't a perfect operating system (although after a couple of Sammy lights I might proclaim OS X so ) so let's not continue to bash Linux. If it's not for you. . .then fine. I personally will always prefer choice over a square peg.

st63z

02-25-2003, 02:29 AM

^ Hey I'm with you good buddy...

Macguy59

02-25-2003, 02:33 AM

^ Hey I'm with you good buddy...

Sorry about that. I quoted the wrong item :lol:

felixdd

02-25-2003, 02:40 AM

I think we're concentrating too much on how to make this laptop a PDA. Personally, I don't think that it's valid to say that they want to attack the PDA market by comparing their product to a PDA.

I think that they know the enormous disadvantage they face if they try to compare their laptop against other laptops out there -- so they decide to compare with something similar in price -- an iPaq. If so, then it's pathetic that even the iPaq seems to win over this. It's an incredibly stupid thing to do, and the stupidity shines brightly through with their comment on how the PCMCIA slot is there for wireless capabilities, while the iPaq has none. You mean it doesn't come with wifi built in? I'm sorry then, that thing is as "wirelessly online" as my refrigerator.

With that said, kudos to them for taking the less-traveled (if traveled at all!) path. Even though their execution is flawed, their intentions of trying something new is commendable.

Jason Dunn

02-25-2003, 02:46 AM

This really boils down to about $100 or so (the cost of Windows XP bundled with a PC) - for $100, who in their right mind would suggest that a Linux-OS based machine, in it's current form, would be a better deal for a consumer?

Not to split hairs too much, but it's probably a bit more if one adds in the cost of an "Office-type" suite

Good point! And therein lies the opportunity for Linux - create a compelling end to end solution for consumers. One that addresses the most common scenarios they will encounter (email, Web, office documents), and make it part the Lindows distro, they could have a serious contender against Windows + Office.

klinux

02-25-2003, 02:57 AM

This was discussed thoroughly on Slashdot. For a few hundre $ more you get a real laptop i.e. iBook running a BSD based OS with an elegant interface and a better library of programs. Windows laptop can be had for a cheaper than $800 as well.

sub_tex

02-25-2003, 02:58 AM

I don't think the linux distros need to take away all the choices in applications at all.

Instead, i think they should take the application that is the furthest along in development, or is the one of choice, and have that be the default. The others could easily be added since they come on the CD.

Mandrake pulled that off well. When i first booted into KDE it prompted me for email info, etc. It just set up KMail for me, and the address book, which are shortcuts right there in the taskbar.

Sure i have other email clients in the "K" menu, but it was pretty clear that KMail was what they were pushing. And it's been fine.

If people all go crazy about Evolution, bundle it with the distro and make it the default. Same goes for office software.

You don't want to take the choice way ever. But you can strongly suggest which one you think people should use.

This way new users just use what's there without having to think, and those who are experienced or curious can launch/install the other apps.

bdeli

02-25-2003, 03:00 AM

This Laptop will be a flop. Why should I spend $800 for a laptop without any CD/CD-RW/DVD, floppy and some decent software when I can get an entry level laptop for $800 which will include a known OS, Floppy, CD-RW/DVD and MS Works (including Word) for the same price?

A search on pricegrabber will reveal all the details I was amazed how much the prices on these laptops went down. Funny part, a new 5450 costs some more $$ than a low end HP Pavilion.....

jeffmd

02-25-2003, 03:00 AM

I wouldnt buy it. the fact is, you can find monthly sales on toshiba laptops that bring the price to around $899 and maybe even $799 after rebate that run a celeron or durron well over 1ghz, have lots of ram and hd space, a dvdrom and sometimes a cdrw/dvdrom combo drive. also youll find atleast a 14 inch tft screen.

if small size form is really what you are looking for then a pocket pc would obviusly be a better choice.

Timothy Rapson

02-25-2003, 03:14 AM

Too big to fit in my pocket so as to replace my PDA

Not full featured enough to replace my desktop as I could do with an >$800 (Price Grabber price, not suggested retail) CD RW full sized laptop.

Maybe a fair amount of software is available for this, I use OpenOffice daily. But so far as I have seen no Bible search program for Linux such as both PPC and Palm have, that I use daily.

Instant on?

But, someone may find this the perfect companion. If you could buy these at wholesale (20% off) and equip a whole class of high school freshmen with them for basic programing, networking, or OpenOffice training it might fulfil the need. You don't have to worry about students bringing in viruses, or games that would mess up the OS.

GoldKey

02-25-2003, 03:20 AM

I don't understand why this is at all considered a good deal. I just went out to Dell's site and you can get a laptop for $699 with the following
Featured InspironTM 2650 C
Mobile Celeron® processor at 1.6GHz.
20GB Hard Drive
128MB DDR SDRAM
FREE 8X MAX DVD-ROM Drive
FREE (3-5 day) Shipping!

$699! No shipping! Comes with XP, you can get a Free RW drive as opposed to the DVD.

Ed Hansberry

02-25-2003, 04:20 AM

I don't understand why this is at all considered a good deal. I just went out to Dell's site and you can get a laptop for $699 with the following
Agreed Goldkey. The whole thing looks lame. Heck, this thing can't even run Train Simulator! :crazyeyes:

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 04:36 AM

It isn't a bad deal from a hardware standpoint, but without Windows I don't see the point, at least not in the consumer market. As I said before, this might have some legs in a *NIX based business environment that just wants a basic system. But they can get cheaper systems from Dell (as Goldkey pointed out) and just install Linux where needed.

This, IMO, is nothing more than Lindows attempt to play the "rebel" card. I'm all for competition, but...

Janak Parekh

02-25-2003, 04:38 AM

This, IMO, is nothing more than Lindows attempt to play the "rebel" card. I'm all for competition, but...
Well, realize that Lindows is run by none other than Michael Robertson, of MP3.com fame. He's a professional rebel. :D

I'm pretty cool on this idea too - I do run Linux on a laptop or two, but don't see the mainstream demand for this. Apparently, though, their desktops have been selling well enough. It'll be interesting to see how it sells - I suspect most of the hardcore Linux community will buy these, format the disks, and install a more stock distribution on it - if anything, these laptops are valuable as they're Linux-compatible by definition, more than anything else.

--janak

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 04:41 AM

Ed Hansberry

02-25-2003, 04:44 AM

troyrogers

02-25-2003, 04:47 AM

you can get a laptop for $699 with the following
Featured InspironTM 2650 C

The 2650 is beyond a brick... the Lindows laptop is a super-thin notebook. 6.8lbs vs. less than 3. You pay more for less... or something like that.

And I would bet $100 that the thing WILL run Windows.

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 04:49 AM

I'd like to see the look on their face when they find out they can't get Photoshop Elements...or Ulead Graphics software....or Picasa, but instead must rely on GIMP.
Or Taxcut, or Quicken, or a game for their kids.

That's about the size of it. In many ways, it is better to be a Mac user. At least you can still buy the majority of top brand commercial software titles. Whether they run under OSX is a different story.

Weyoun6

02-25-2003, 05:05 AM

I know this is a mostly pro-Microsoft site, but seriously. Linux/Lindows is in 3rd place. Of course they don't have as much software.

The size of the Software library does not matter What matters is that it has the software you need. Gamers do not use Mac, because there is no software or hardware for it. This is simply an budget Linux laptop that is trying to gain a foothold in the market. I think its a good idea, if it increases competition.

I dont think its necessary to standardize on one desktop environment, just to have one as default - so that programmers have one target, that they are sure the majority have.

Yes, There is a perfect OS - it's called BeOS. Unfortunately, there is little software development at this time, and because Palm, Inc bought the stupid company, there isn’t going to be an official new version.

Kirkaiya

02-25-2003, 05:16 AM

<snip>
Your situation is the perfect example. I don't need or want 10 different GNU e-mail clients. I only need one really good commercial one. That's it. The same problem exists within the GUI itself. Do you want KDE or Gnome? Until the Linux community standardizes on ONE common interface, commercial software developers will never support this OS...and I know because I have friends who work at Adobe and Macromedia. This is their number one complaint; too much fragmentation.

Also, I get sick to the point of vomiting when Linux fanatic says..."And the command line is right there when you need it". When in the name of Grace will any consumer need a command line? The CLI is dead folks, get over it. The GUI won the interface war.

Okay, Foo - I just HAFTA make a couple of coments here. One - I agree with you about having too many choices for the average consumer is confusing, but saying that you want 1 *commercial* email client is just plain wrong. The new Mozilla email client is in many ways BETTER than most commercial email clients - and no nasty VBScript exploits to worry about, as with Outlook. (I must use Outlook, since one of my clients is Microsoft, and they're very sensitive about it, but I actually prefer the new Mozilla mail client).

Point 2 - As for unifiying the GUI, well - Red Hat is doing something along those lines with Bluecurve, on it's Desktop version of it's Linux distro. Bluecurve blurs a lot of the differences between KDE and GNOME, replacing each one's custom look/feel with a standard, unified one.

Finally - I think if this Lindows laptop was $100 cheaper, at $699, it would be a decent thing for cafe owners (like Starbucks) to buy for use in the store, for people without WLAN-enabled devices. It has two distinct advantages: it's cheap, and since it doesn't run Windows, most people won't sit there trying to muck around under the hood, and generally causing problems (of course, god forbid a Linux developer gets hold of it, but anyway - less opportunity for mischief with the Linux OS on there).

And finally - i have to agree with (whoever it was) - there are far far more applications, probably even commercial ones, that run on Linux than on Pocket PC, much though I love my iPaq. There are a variety of web-servers, application servers, IDE's, web-browsers, mail clients, etc., many of which are commercial, that run on Linux. It's not even apples and oranges, it's just a dumb comparison on their site - it's like, apples and orange juice...

Anyway - i think it'll have some niche markets, then die a quick death, but I with them (Lindows) well anyway.

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 05:22 AM

Linux/Lindows is in 3rd place. Of course they don't have as much software.

Actually Linux should soon surpass Macintosh as the number two platform.

As to having less software...well that is a deeper issue. Linux lacks commercial software for several reasons other than simply not having enough marketshare to be a viable market. The lack of a standard GUI really ties the hands of commercial development. But another problem is the nature of open-source software. Commercial software developers are not going to surrender their code. And with all due respect, the Linux community has a nasty tendency to clone commercial software. Adobe isn't going to port Photoshop only watch some 16 year old kid crack the software and distribute a free lookalike.

The size of the Software library does not matter What matters is that it has the software you need.

Right, but Linux doesn't have what most people need.

Gamers do not use Mac, because there is no software or hardware for it.

And performance stinks.

Yes, There is a perfect OS - it's called BeOS. Unfortunately, there is little software development at this time, and because Palm, Inc bought the stupid company, there isn’t going to be an official new version.

You know, BeOS is the first "alternative" OS I fell in love with. I've always said if developers could layer the BeOS GUI over the Linux kernel...the OS could really take off. Be was clean, elegant, smartly designed..it worked! I've never like KDE or GNOME.

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 05:44 AM

The new Mozilla email client is in many ways BETTER than most commercial email clients - and no nasty VBScript exploits to worry about, as with Outlook. (I must use Outlook, since one of my clients is Microsoft, and they're very sensitive about it, but I actually prefer the new Mozilla mail client).

You can have Mozilla. As for Outlook....yeah, I would say it sucks..sucks...sucks! But the upcoming version looks very promising. Microsoft may have finally gotten it right.

As for VBscript virii, well this is another one of those cause and effect arguments. Outlook and OE are definitely not up to snuff in terms of security...but the reason why virus/worm writers target this platform is because that is what everyone uses. If 95% of the computing world ran Mozilla we would have Gecko exploits up the wazoo.

This is the same I argument I hear in Mac discussion boards..."PCs are unsecure, everyone should just buy Macs". OK, as soon as "everyone" switches to Macs, they to will become a security liability.

Point 2 - As for unifiying the GUI, well - Red Hat is doing something along those lines with Bluecurve, on it's Desktop version of it's Linux distro. Bluecurve blurs a lot of the differences between KDE and GNOME, replacing each one's custom look/feel with a standard, unified one.

I've seen BlueCurve. It looks very promising, but in most regards it simply tries to smooth over what is already. The GUI needs to undergo some cosmetic surgery. The real problem is this; Microsoft and Apple have teams of highly talented veteran GUI designers. These people know more about usability and good design than anyone. The Linux community doesn't have this luxury because it is an open architecture and no one is being paid. There are a few exceptions like Ximian, but that doesn't seem to be going anywhere.

it would be a decent thing for cafe owners (like Starbucks) to buy for use in the store, for people without WLAN-enabled devices. It has two distinct advantages: it's cheap, and since it doesn't run Windows, most people won't sit there trying to muck around under the hood, and generally causing problems (of course, god forbid a Linux developer gets hold of it, but anyway - less opportunity for mischief with the Linux OS on there).

Well there's another aspect. How do you know anyone but Linux users will be able to use it? I know if I sat this laptop in front of my 40 year old sister she would be completely stuck. People equate applications with tasks. They don't just grab a mouse and start surfing the web....they launch Internet Explorer to do it. Will these same people even know how to get on the web? Have they heard of Konquerer?

dollardr

02-25-2003, 05:58 AM

I have a Dell X200 notebook that weighs 2.9lbs, is about 1" thin, and includes built-in 802.11 wireless and CDMA wireless cards from Sprint and Verizon.

I was thinking about trying to get by on my Dell Axim for access to e-mail and other applications on my next trip but am now thinking I will miss having my notebook with a full size keyboard, viewable display, and all of my applications.

If I use the 8 1/2" x 11" portfolio size carrying case, I am really no worse off from a mobility perspective than I am with a PDA and all of the accessories I would need to carry for my PDA (power adaptor, CF cards, expandable keyboard etc...). The portfolio would also hold my paperwork and plane tickets etc.....

I guess my point is that for me a PDA is still good for daily use as a PIM and listening to MP3's on the plane but it still can't replace my sub-notebook. The PDA would work great while in transit for quickly checking e-mail, listening to music and having a battery that would last longer than my notebook. But once I am at my destination, I don't think it could be the only device I have.

So do I end up bringing both devices which just adds more cables and accessories?? Still looking for the perfect solution of a mobile, wireless device......I don't think it exists yet.

gfunkmagic

02-25-2003, 06:11 AM

eh... I'ld much rather get the Sharp C700... hmmm......

The Canuck

02-25-2003, 07:05 AM

I can't believe that they would compare this to a P3 @ 800 mhz. The VIA C3 isn't even in the same league as a celeron (maybe closer to the performance of a strongarm). Plus the S3 integrated graphics is unbearably slow.

A friend of mine just bought a Toshiba S105, 1.6Ghz celeron, 256MB, 20GB HDD, 24xCDRW/DVD, 15" screen, 16MB Geforce Go 420 for $750 after rebates. Sure it's 7.5 lbs, but at least it'll work properly. And I just bought a laptop w/ 1.8Ghz P4, 512MB DDR ram, 30GB HDD, DVD/CDRW, 15" screen, and 32MB Radeon 7500 for $899 that weighs under 6lbs.

If this thing was around $500 it'd probably sell, but for $800 you can get so much more.

unxmully

02-25-2003, 09:58 AM

Even consumers that don't know the difference between Windows and Linux will soon get a sobering education the first time they walk into a Best Buy to buy software for their Lintop. I'd like to see the look on their face when they find out they can't get Photoshop Elements...or Ulead Graphics software....or Picasa, but instead must rely on GIMP.

Might be worth having a quick look at http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_categories.php. One of the major selling points of Lindows is that the purchase price buys you access to the click and run warehouse which means that you don't have to go to your local best buy.

OK so there are fewer commercial products available so far but for a home user who doesn't need all the power of Office (the majority of people I would suggest) something like this with OpenOffice is perfectly acceptable.

gliscameria

02-25-2003, 11:13 AM

I don't like the software packages they put in most laptops, and at least I know I could always format with those.

The only thing even PDA'ish about this device is that it comes with an operating system on it, that chances are you cannot replace with anything else, unless you want to risk making a doorstop. It's all in one, like what you get and upgrade later.

Unless you are a Linux geek, I don't see the attraction. Why on God's green earth would anyone try to market a consumer grade 'cheap' Linux based laptop? Yeah, it's a barrel of fun teaching my moron friends how to use Windows... now they're going to buy a cheap Linux machine??? But it's so light and pretty they say!!! Curses!!! (getting Linux users to hate Linux by forcing them to explain it to family and friends....clever ploy Microsoft... j/k)

Not that Linux is all that bad, but please don't try to sell it to my grandmother. :wink:

sfjlittel

02-25-2003, 04:04 PM

Unless you are a Linux geek, I don't see the attraction.

I don´t think Linux geeks would buy Lindows...

Foo Fighter

02-25-2003, 04:54 PM

unxmully

02-25-2003, 06:01 PM

Might be worth having a quick look at http://www.lindows.com/lindows_products_categories.php. One of the major selling points of Lindows is that the purchase price buys you access to the click and run warehouse which means that you don't have to go to your local best buy.

These are open source apps, not commercial. How will consumers understand how to use them? How will they get help, certainly not from their next door neighbor who uses Windows?

...something like this with OpenOffice is perfectly acceptable.

Not really. Microsoft Works would be a much better office package for conusmers. Nice, simple to use task based interface, no feature bloat.

1. I never said the apps were commercial. I said that you don't have to go to best buy to get hold of a load of apps for a Lindows system

2. Help. They'll probably read the help or, like they would on an MS System. or alternatively go online and look/ask for help on Google.

3. Agreed Works is more appropriate for most people's use and StarOffice is not a direct replacement for Office but for the majority of home users I stand by my assertion that it would be acceptible. My wife won't switch from StarOffice 5.2 even now we have Office 2000. She prefers it.

Your key issue seems to be with commercial applications, or the lack of them. What's the background? Percieved lack of support, continuity of the product.....

felixdd

02-25-2003, 10:08 PM

Pirillo reviewed it on his show -- called it "light", "portable", "great" -- his face is even on the website (though apparently he's not paid for this obvious endorsement).

I always thought he loved Windows more than Linux? I remember him recommending a caller to go with Windows instead of Linux...<shrug>

Kirkaiya

02-26-2003, 02:27 AM

You can have Mozilla. As for Outlook....yeah, I would say it sucks..sucks...sucks! But the upcoming version looks very promising. Microsoft may have finally gotten it right.

I have the "upcoming version" of the Outlook client - and while it's a nice improvement, and common tasks are easier to get to, it's still a friggin beast (and yes, the security is tightened by default). I have had Office 11 installed for a bit now.. I'm a little "underwhelmed", but anywaze... One point is this: for some of the collaborative advantages of Outlook 11, you need to be running the Titanium mail-server (Exchange Titanium, blah blah)

As for VBscript virii, well this is another one of those cause and effect arguments. Outlook and OE are definitely not up to snuff in terms of security...but the reason why virus/worm writers target this platform is because that is what everyone uses. If 95% of the computing world ran Mozilla we would have Gecko exploits up the wazoo.

From a technical standpoint, this isn't true - neither the Mozilla mail client, nor the (formerly named) Gecko rendering engine have the same hooks into the OS that Outlook does. With the correct settings, Outlook can allow VBScript to instantiate ActiveX objects, which can call the Win32 API (granted, there's security restrictions, which have been exploited nevertheless). Outlook, with it's ties to the OS, is inherently less secure, albeit getting better.

I've seen BlueCurve. It looks very promising, but in most regards it simply tries to smooth over what is already. The GUI needs to undergo some cosmetic surgery. The real problem is this; Microsoft and Apple have teams of highly talented veteran GUI designers. These people know more about usability and good design than anyone.

Very good point - Microsoft and Apple are both world-renowned for their user-interface design.

Well there's another aspect. How do you know anyone but Linux users will be able to use it? I know if I sat this laptop in front of my 40 year old sister she would be completely stuck. People equate applications with tasks. They don't just grab a mouse and start surfing the web....they launch Internet Explorer to do it. Will these same people even know how to get on the web? Have they heard of Konquerer?

Well - I have travelled overseas quite a bit, and I have been in internet cafes that have locked-down linux boxes, running Netscape/Mozilla as the browser, and with ICQ, Yahoo! chat, and a few other items, all accessible from a "locked down" menu-page (it was like the old iPaq "Launcher" menu, just a bunch of icons with labels). Nobody seemed to have any trouble using them to access the internet - you just clicked on the "Web Browser" icon, and up popped Mozilla, which I think a lot of people recognize (the look/feel) from Netscape.

And the Yahoo chat client ran fine - I used it.

Granted this was a "locked down" box, but thats what I'm thinking about for this laptop at a Starbucks/cafe type place.

Oh - about Mozilla - I'm using it now. Check out eWeek Lab's ratings, they rank it (in a tie with Opera) as the best browser out there:

From eWeek magazine (http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,3959,857333,00.asp):
We'll probably go back and forth a few times trying to figure out if we like Opera 7 better than Mozilla. And if you're wondering where eWeek Labs would rate market leader Internet Explorer from Microsoft Corp., that Web browser dinosaur would probably do no better than sixth place.

*grin* I love Microsoft products, really, I just like to keep them honest by cheering on competitors also ;-)