Life after death, religious discussion

[Foo Fighter]

Here's a wacky idea; since Palm vs. PPC is such a bitter debate, I thought I would come up with a less controversial subject like religion and views on the hereafter. :lol:

What are your thoughts or beliefs? Care to share with the rest of the class? :?:

[Janak Parekh]

Oh dear. Foo, are you just trying to test Steve's skill at moderation? :lol:

In any case, I'm Hindu, so it's pretty simple: we're reincarnated. Unless we achieve enlightenment. I don't think being a Pocket PC admin equates to that, unfortunately. ;)

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Oh dear. Foo, are you just trying to test Steve's skill at moderation? :lol:

Can't help it, I'm a little devil. :twisted:

[Fishie]

Go to Hell.

[Sheynk]

Go to Hell.

lol

JEWS RULE!!!!!!!

Why you might ask:

1. Holidays
2. Food

[Sheynk]

oh yeah...I almost forgot about the whole Moses thing....oh well

[Fishie]

Go to Hell.

lol

JEWS RULE!!!!!!!

Why you might ask:

1. Holidays
2. Food

Oh yeah, Jews dont believe in hell right?

[Rirath]

Christian. :) (Nope, not atheist, sadist, anything else you might be thinking! :wink: )

If anyone is actually seriously interested about the life after death question, here's a really good read by Garner Ted Armstrong. Up to you what you think of him or his views, but I found it to be really interesting.

http://www.garnertedarmstrong.ws/whenidie.htm

[entropy1980]

Chirtsian as well.... Baptist to be specific

[Kaber]

I'm just gonna keep making as many babies as I can and let them try and figure it out.

I believe in immortality through genetics.

[Foo Fighter]

I don't have a religious affiliation. In fact, I don't believe in anything. No life after death, no God, no heaven, no hell, no Jesus, no Muhammad, no Budda. It all seems like nonsense to me. :?

[Fishie]

Muslim here but urm to get this back on track wasnt this supposed to be on what we belief will happen once we die instead of stating oure religion or lack thereof?

[Foo Fighter]

Muslim here but urm to get this back on track wasnt this supposed to be on what we belief will happen once we die instead of stating oure religion or lack thereof?

That was the general idea, but I knew this bound to happen. Oh well, this discussion is DOA. :?

[Foo Fighter]

oh yeah...I almost forgot about the whole Moses thing....oh well

Ah, but then the Jews killed Jesus. Way to go! :wink:

[Kati Compton]

I have to hope there is *something* after death. Otherwise I feel like a lot of life is pointless, which would be too depressing.

I'm not a specific religion. I basically believe that it's unlikely that I could know (or guess) what's going on at that level, assuming there is in fact something. I expect I'll find out when I get there, but I'm not in a hurry.

[Janak Parekh]

I'm not a specific religion.
How about the religion of "Engineer"? ;)

Or do we worship at the alter of Pocket PCs? :angel:

Foo, you thought you were going to lose the PPC vs Palm debate. Oh how naive are ye... :lol:

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

I have to hope there is *something* after death. Otherwise I feel like a lot of life is pointless, which would be too depressing.

Ah...well. Mind you, this is just my opinion, but several years ago when I was undergoing surgery (and again a few months ago when I had a wisdom tooth extracted) I had an Epiphany while under sedation. When I was given anesthesia, the time between the point where I was rendered unconscious to the time I awoke went by in the blink of eye. I mean it was literally as if I were "switched off" and then switched back on. From that experience I concluded there is no life beyond death. Why you ask? Simple; it means the what we think of as our living soul is nothing more than the conscious portion of our brain. Once that portion of the brain is rendered unconscious, all life as we know it ceases. Think about it, if I had been kept under anesthesia indefinitely, I would never exist again. What does that tell you about death? Same thing. No conscious brain, no life.

Believe me, I would like to believe there is something that awaits us at the end of life, but the fact is it just doesn't make any logical sense. I mean, what is the point of life? We are born...then we die...then we go off to some far away dimension to meet our dearly departed loved ones? I don't think so. In may experience the most simple explanation is usually the correct one. In this case, you're born...you die...end of discussion. It is a fairly simple straightforward transaction.

In connection with that, I believe the existence of a divine creator is complete fallacy. There is no God. Certainly not the one depicted by the Christians. A merciful, loving, caring, nurturing being that watches over his flock day and night. Good lord, give me a break. How can any rational human being actually believe this? I have seen no evidence of such a being at work. Quite the opposite in fact. People die in horribly gruesome tragedies every day, just look at the world trade center? People jumping to their deaths from 100 story buildings....where was God then? Or were all these people just sinners getting what they deserved?

Maybe I'm just a born skeptic, but I can't believe in any such nonsense. :roll:

[Kati Compton]

I mean it was literally as if I were "switched off" and then switched back on. From that experience I concluded there is no life beyond death. Why you ask? Simple; it means the what we think of as our living soul is nothing more than the conscious portion of our brain. Once that portion of the brain is rendered unconscious, all life as we know it ceases. Think about it, if I had been kept under anesthesia indefinitely, I would never exist again. What does that tell you about death? Same thing. No conscious brain, no life.

Or you're in a limbo until your body actually dies. Hard to say at this point. ;)

For me, the wisdom teeth surgery was a lot like sleep - I think I even dreamt a little. Of course, I also regained some consciousness during the surgery. I think. At one point I thought I felt a sharp pain in my mouth, and could think about it (and why I might feel it), but I couldn't open my eyes... It was way weird. It only lasted a few seconds, fortunately.

....where was God then? Or were all these people just sinners getting what they deserved?

Don't look to me to counter the "How can God mean for bad things to happen" argument. I'm not even certain whether there's a central authority or not. Even if there is, I'm inclined to believe that it's a hands-off type of thing. "Here you go - here's life, here's the ability to think, here's your spiffy thumbs. Let's see what you make of it."

[Weyoun6]

I'm A Christian. In fact, I am really in to Apologetics (Defending of the faith), and we could get into a whole long thread, so I won't start unless you really,really want to.

However, I don’t think there is no such thing as having no religion. Everyone has a worldview that affects the way they perceive the world. Atheism is a "religion" that denies the existence of God, or sees no evidence for God.

I recommend The Problem of Pain by CS Lewis to anyone who has problems with God allowing evil in the world.

The simplest explination for the world, is that God exists. The chances that the universe was created exactly the right way, with all the right properties for life, with out God takes more faith than a belief in God.

If anyone wants to get more in-depth, I will be happy to oblige.

[Steven Cedrone]

I'm what you'd call a teleological existential atheist. I believe that there's an intelligence to the universe with the exception of certain parts of New Jersey.

Steve

[vincentsiaw]

really intresting topic, i watch to much sci-fi so i don't really know what i believe, i think it depends on what kind of situation :oops:

[Rirath]

Believe me, I would like to believe there is something that awaits us at the end of life, but the fact is it just doesn't make any logical sense. I mean, what is the point of life? We are born...then we die...then we go off to some far away dimension to meet our dearly departed loved ones? I don't think so. In may experience the most simple explanation is usually the correct one. In this case, you're born...you die...end of discussion. It is a fairly simple straightforward transaction.

Interestingly enough I think everything you said is talked about in that link I gave. Personally I liked it. It throws away all the myth and fable and presents a viewpoint that appeals to the intelligent reader. Is it right or rubbish? I obviously can't say for certain. It's interesting however.

I've spent the last few years of my life seriously looking at my religion and finding out if I believe based on being loosed raised with it, or because I really believe. I can honestly now say I believe in Jesus based on my own findings and opinions, not just because I was raised with things like Christmas. It's a big relief and something I think many people need to do. Too many people go through life preprogrammed by their parents, never questioning. Or they rebel just for the sake of it and abandon it all together.

I have to agree with Kati though. I don't claim to know something that's unknowable. I try to keep a very open mind. I like to think we'll all find out sooner or later.

By the way... like I've said before... things are always doom and gloom with you Foo. :wink:

[Foo Fighter]

Or you're in a limbo until your body actually dies. Hard to say at this point. ;)

That still doesn't explain the loss of total existence. If I had an everlasting soul, surely I would remain conscious in some state of being, no matter how insignificant. But I completely vanished for a period of hours, which to me went by in the blink of an eye. Another thing that gives me reason to doubt the "divine spark" in man is people that suffer brain damage. One moment they are intelligent, thinking, cognizant, productive human beings....the next minute (let's say a car accident for example) they are mentally a vegetable. How is this possible? This suggests to me that what we perceive as the living soul is purely mechanical. Nothing more than a biological computer at work...the BRAIN. Everything we are is the bi-product of this gray goop in our cranium, and we are at its mercy. If it's damaged, you are forever changed....if it is destroyed, so are you. Religion, and the afterlife are..in my opinion, nothing more than Man's attempt to explain away the inevitable. To give himself some form of hope where there is none.


Don't look to me to counter the "How can God mean for bad things to happen" argument. I'm not even certain whether there's a central authority or not. Even if there is, I'm inclined to believe that it's a hands-off type of thing. "Here you go - here's life, here's the ability to think, here's your spiffy thumbs. Let's see what you make of it."

A little TOO hands off for my liking. I think it more likely there simply is no God. I see so much suffering around me every day, even in small ways. My grandmother is 99 years old...and she is nothing more than a prisoner in her own body. She doesn't know me or any other member of the family, including her own son. If there were a merciful God, he would give her release from this horrible existence. But...there she lays in a nursing home bed, along with 100 other poor souls waiting for death. And this is the same God I am supposed to worship in Church on Sunday? Sorry, that ain't gonna happen. My sister is always trying to "convert" me to her side of the fence. But I've seen far too much in my time to believe in anything. It makes no logical sense.

And the concepts of religion have zero appeal to me. Look at Christianity for example; those followers believe (upon death) you ascend to heaven and meet Jesus and the apostles and apparently go off having a big feast of lamb (call me crazy, but why would a living spirit need to ingest food? I didn't realize we continue to have nutritional requirements beyond death) and then go off to meet our long lost relatives. Sorry, but that has no appeal to me. I don't want to go to heaven....I don't want to meet Jesus....I don't want to break bread with the Apostles (I don't mean that in a hateful or evil way). My personal "dream" of the afterlife or concept of bliss would be to live again. To come back and live another adventure. I don't mean live this life over, I mean start a new one. Maybe have some of things I didn't get to have in this life (not material things mind you)...smarter, better looking, that sort of thing. That, to me, would be heaven. But I'll pass on the Jesus thing. :wink:

[Foo Fighter]

By the way... like I've said before... things are always doom and gloom with you Foo. :wink:

Ha! Well, like I said...from my experience the worst case scenario is usually the one that ends up happening. :lol:

[Foo Fighter]

...and we could get into a whole long thread, so I won't start unless you really,really want to.

Hey, I'm all ears. Bring it on!

The chances that the universe was created exactly the right way, with all the right properties for life, with out God takes more faith than a belief in God.

I understand where you're coming from. I can't quite figure that part out myself. It does seem just a bit far fetched that the mechanics of life, DNA, human intelligence, biology, the properties of global ecosystems..and so on, all happed purely by accident. The idea that all life on this planet began from a single pool of liquid whereby a group of amino acids formed the first protein strains, and began the long process of life, is like saying that my Ford Ranger was not built by human hands, but rather was created over millions of years from carbon molecules coming together to form complex chains. It just doesn't make sense.

[Kati Compton]

Or you're in a limbo until your body actually dies. Hard to say at this point. ;)

That still doesn't explain the loss of total existence. If I had an everlasting soul, surely I would remain conscious in some state of being, no matter how insignificant.

Not everyone remembers their dreams either. Could be you did exist, but forgot. Plus, even while sleeping sometimes you don't get into the dream-level of sleep. I don't think this means that we don't exist for that time. I think we're on hold. At this point, at least, we are bound to our bodies. So if there's a chemical that knocks us out, it knocks us out. For believers in God I don't see any conflict with not being aware during surgery. Why couldn't God just not want to give you the "truth" of life after death until you're dead? I mean, if you got a taste of it when you were knocked out, that would kinda prove the existence of it (if you were allowed to remember anyway).

Another thing that gives me reason to doubt the "divine spark" in man is people that suffer brain damage. One moment they are intelligent, thinking, cognizant, productive human beings....the next minute (let's say a car accident for example) they are mentally a vegetable. How is this possible? This suggests to me that what we perceive as the living soul is purely mechanical.

Could be. But on the other hand, if you're trapped in a car with foggy windows you can't see out of it. If you're trapped in a body with a damaged brain.... Again, while I can see why these things might bring you to the conclusions you've made, I don't actually see an inherent conflict with the idea of life after death. I just really think it doesn't happen until you're fully dead (not just mostly dead).


If there were a merciful God, he would give her release from this horrible existence. But...there she lays in a nursing home bed, along with 100 other poor souls waiting for death. And this is the same God I am supposed to worship in Church on Sunday? Sorry, that ain't gonna happen.

I'm sorry to hear that. Yes, there are a lot of things in the world that are bad. I still tend towards thinking "hands-off" just to see what we, as a race, can accomplish (if anything).

As for whether worship is required.... My thought is that if God is as great as everyone says he is, he doesn't need me to tell him so too. He'll take my actions, not praise, as indicative of my "worth" as a human. On the other hand, if we are all insignificant to him, or he doesn't exist, or there's something else completely different out there, it won't matter a bit if I were to go through the motions.


and meet Jesus and the apostles and apparently go off having a big feast of lamb (call me crazy, but why would a living spirit need to ingest food? I didn't realize we continue to have nutritional requirements beyond death)


Unless you think of Jesus as a human representative for God.

Again - I can't claim to have all the answers. Or any, really. ;) I personally think that the Bible was written by men, who may or may not have had some devine guidance, but probably put some of their own stuff in there too. I don't see God advising that it's okay to eat grasshoppers.

[Foo Fighter]

Speaking of worship, and the existence of God...it has always struck me as odd that (should God truly exist) we are born into this world without so much as a word from him. I mean, from the time I was born I was never contacted by a higher spirit. No one laid out the ground rules of why I'm here...what I'm supposed to do...where to go.....or when to do it. Nothing. No voices in my head...no burning bush...no pillars of salt....not towers of babel. If there is a God, shouldn't we have heard from him by now?

That said, even oblivion is hard to rationalize. I've often tried to think back to my very earliest memory of being alive, and I can't find it. It's hard to belive that I came from nothingness, and I will return to that state after I die. That would imply that who we are is just luck of the draw. I mean, why am I me and not you?

[Kaber]

Do any of you people have kids? BTW, I do believe in a God, higher power, whatever, and I feel I have had personal experiences with him, her, it, and I also have sensed the other side also. But I wouldn't go so far as to limit such an important thing to what's been put down on paper by any other being of flesh and blood.

As far as I'm concerned the Bible is just another forum or BBS.

As it ever was, so it ever shall be. As above so below and all that jazz... blah blah blah... yada yada yada

[baker]

If interested check out these books:
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
Both by author Lee Strobel

[Foo Fighter]

Do any of you people have kids?

Not me.

...and I also have sensed the other side also.

I have no sense of the "other side". Could you elaborate on why or what you've "sensed"?

But I wouldn't go so far as to limit such an important thing to what's been put down on paper by any other being of flesh and blood.

That is yet another reason why I won't subscribe to any religion. Regardless of whether there is a higher power or not, no mortal religion can have the answer(s). We are all just babes in the woods.

As far as I'm concerned the Bible is just another forum or BBS.

As far as I'm concerned, the Bible is pure fiction.

[Weyoun6]

Here's a question for you all - Can Knowledge exist without God?

[Foo Fighter]

Here's a question for you all - Can Knowledge exist without God?

Well, data on my hard drive exists just fine without God. :lol:

[vincentsiaw]

i realy have no idea whether god exist or not, but talking about life after death, if i can choose, i prefer not to have life after death, because i think i'll get bored !!!! :twisted:

[Kaber]

Here's a question for you all - Can Knowledge exist without God?

Here's a queation for you that you may find stupid...

Would knowledge of God exist without us?

[Foo Fighter]

Here's a question for you all - Can Knowledge exist without God?

Would knowledge of God exist without us?

Good point. Perhaps God is just a creation of our own collective imagination. Kind of goes back to that whole.."If a tree falls in the forrest" argument. :)

"I think, therefore I am" doesn't necessarily mean you will continue to be.

[Foo Fighter]

Another subject that hasn't been brought up yet is NDE..or Near Death Experience. I read a medical article a few months ago that said over 30% of heart attack victims (those that survived) report having these experiences. Thoughts?

[Fishie]

Another subject that hasn't been brought up yet is NDE..or Near Death Experience. I read a medical article a few months ago that said over 30% of heart attack victims (those that survived) report having these experiences. Thoughts?

Those are caused by chemicals released by the brain in situations of dire need apparently.
There are tests underway to see if they can have the brain produce em artificially so they can be studied in depth.
thats what I heard anyway.

[Foo Fighter]

Those are caused by chemicals released by the brain in situations of dire need apparently.

Endorphins.

[Rirath]

Lets see... how can I summarize that link...

Basically the guy's claims / thoughts / opinions / whatever are that no where in the bible is there EVER any mention of us having an immortal soul. He gives many detailed examples. When we die, that's it. We're switched off, gone. He goes on to admit Heaven is an extremely boring concept. Hell is an even worse concept, everlasting pain. Both, according to him, are a mix of fable and incorrect translations.

What he proposes is the bible speaks of three resurrections. This is christian belief after all, so it starts when Jesus returns. The living will be instantly changed and the dead that had faith will be given a new body. It doesn't matter what happened to the living one, it's unimportant after death. The dead are 100% competely unaware any time has passed. They were simply switched off, and now suddenly back on.

This goes on for a thousand years or something like that and everything is quite nice and spiffy and Jesus is King of the world. After that a massive general resurrection comes in which all of the non believers, infants, folks who's never so much as heard the name Jesus has the chance to live a life of 100 years and learn. They have plenty of time to understand.

At the end of this comes the final resurrection. All the people who still knowingly and forcefully reject the teachings and all the people who in life absolutely knew the truth and still twisted it for their own evil intentions are simply "burnt away" or something like that. NOT everlasting burning or anything, but simply done away with permanently.

After all this... who knows. Probably the most controversial thing he says is after all this we will be "equal" with God. Not some lesser being to awe over him forever, but equal with him. Truth or not? I'm not enough of a bible scholar to say. He gives a lot of reasoning though, so it's interesting. I must say I rather like the concept as well and it fits neatly.

To agree with Kati, I too have long worried about the bible being man's work. I mean, it simply is. It was written by folks claiming to be under divine knowledge or whatever, then other "holy" people took these mounds of scripts and decided what was truly holy and what was false. Then man translated it, often times incorrectly, into other languages. So we have man written words, editorialized by man, translated by man. If there was any word of God in there, I would obviously assume a lot of it has been sadly hidden and misunderstood.

[Weyoun6]

The people who reject God, are sent to "Hell", in my belief. Hell is not a burning pit of fire, but something much, much worse. Hell is the absence of God. Now, there may be a place for some people to make a final choice for God, like in the Catholic Belief, I dont really know...

I really dont know what NDE's are. They may be a "taste" of the afterlife, or they just may be some dream induced by the drugs. It doesnot make a diffrence to my beliefs.

Why can't human people who were inspired by God write a book that is true in every word? The bible has met every test that unbiased people have thrown at it. The problem is people dont take account of the way it is written. People 2000 years ago saw things very diffrently, and described things in a way that are foreign to us today. Hebrew (in what much of the old testament is written) is not a very accurate language for writing in science, due to a low character set. When the bible is taken in context, it meets every objection.

[Rirath]

Why can't human people who were inspired by God write a book that is true in every word? The bible has met every test that unbiased people have thrown at it. The problem is people dont take account of the way it is written. People 2000 years ago saw things very diffrently, and described things in a way that are foreign to us today. Hebrew (in what much of the old testament is written) is not a very accurate language for writing in science, due to a low character set. When the bible is taken in context, it meets every objection.

True enough, hence the reason I still carry one around. I can't help but think over the many versions, translations, and of all the scriptures that were deemed false, we've lost something. The Discovery channel has some really interesting unbiased eye opening documentaries on tracking the Bible's origins.

[Foo Fighter]

The people who reject God, are sent to "Hell", in my belief.

I don't buy that. If that's true, it means God is prone to extreme irrational behavior. He gives us a mind to think, question, internalize, and analyze, and from the time of birth to death never once speaks to us. Yet if we dare question our state of being, or his, we are doomed to hell? That hardly seems logical.

And I've known many wonderful, loving people in my lifetime that didn't believe in God. Were they all banished to hell as well? A caring heart means nothing if you doubt God's existence? If that's true than God is cruel and vindictive. Hardly a quality one would expect to find in a "Supreme" being.

[Hyperluminal]

In regards to hell, I agree with something that was written in a similar discussion on Adobe's Photoshop forums: A religion that threatens non-believers with eternal punishment, is little more than a cult.
I also agree with Foo- if there was a God, why would he not tell us anything about his existence, yet subject all people who don't believe in him to hell? It just doesn't make sense.

In case you couldn't tell, I don't believe in God. :)

To me, religion seems like a way for man to explain away anything. From creation of the universe, to why you tripped yesterday. "It's God's will." You never have to question why, or how, as long as you can say that some higher being willed it and worked it.

And speaking of the Bible. Many people have devoted much of their lives to translating the Bible, trying to figure out the original meaning, and the nuances and subtleties of the original ones. Considering how hard these people worked, if there is a God, why wouldn't he let us have a new Bible? Enough people have tried hard enough at translating it, that I think we deserve it.

[mirkazemisaman]

Go to Hell.

lol

JEWS RULE!!!!!!!

Why you might ask:

1. Holidays
2. Food

Forgot to mention money :wink: !

[Stik]

" This suspense is killing me, I hope it lasts. "


Willy Wonka

[Foo Fighter]

In case you couldn't tell, I don't believe in God. :)

Well, I guess I should restate my assertion here as well. I'm not saying that there is ABSOLUTELY no possibility of God's existence. There is no way I can know the answer to this question. I'm just stating this opinion from what I've seen or rather haven't seen that leads me to believe this. Despite my inherent skepticism, I do try to keep an open mind on the subject. Obviously if some concrete evidence were presented to me, I would change my views.

In fact, I'll openly admit that, despite my gloom and doom skeptic viewpoint there are a few factors that could....could, mind you, support such a conclusion. Near Death Experiences being one good example. People from different backgrounds, age groups, religious affiliations, ethnic classes all having an uncannily similar experience; a tunnel of light, traveling outside the body (viewing their death from a distance), a strong feeling of love and forgiveness, meeting a "presence", sometimes encountering lost relatives, traveling to another place, and often returning after being told it wasn't their "time" to die. One medical theory is that NDEs are hallucinations brought on by Endorphins (natural pain killers released from the brain). The problem with that theory is that, while it might account the feeling of bliss and seeing a light, it can't even BEGIN to explain the act of traveling outside the body. A phenomenon which has been well documented by physicians and emergency room doctors all over the world. Victims (who are unconscious and near death at the time) often remember events which transpired during their out of body experience in lucid detail, such as what emergency room personel were wearing, what the doctors were saying, what was done to their body, and so on. So is this merely the work of a really bad acid trip, as the Endorphin theory suggests? Not very likely.

Then we have the complexities of life to explain. DNA, the building blocks of life. A genetic model that is so vastly complex, it makes computer programming languages look like alphabet soup. In what circumstances could this elaborate framework that holds the key to all life possibly have come out of thin air? How about mechanical forces of nature such as flight. Do you really think that, eons ago, birds just happened to magically develop physical qualities that allowed them to master aerodynamics....or were they simply DESIGNED for the purpose from the very start? God or no God, there must be something at work here. And look at the Earth itself, we have all the necessary elements to sustain our life functions; water, oxygen, protein and nutrients. Is that purely dumb luck? How fortunate for us that this big blue gaseous planet with everything we need just happened to be passing our way, so we hitched a ride? That's one hell of a coincidence.

Life is FAR too complex to be an aberration.

[Hyperluminal]

In case you couldn't tell, I don't believe in God. :)

Well, I guess I should restate my assertion here as well. I'm not saying that there is ABSOLUTELY no possibility of God's existence. There is no way I can know the answer to this question. I'm just stating this opinion from what I've seen or rather haven't seen that leads me to believe this. Despite my inherent skepticism, I do try to keep an open mind on the subject. Obviously if some concrete evidence were presented to me, I would change my views.

I agree. There's no way of knowing for certain that there's no God, but from what I've seen, it just seems extremely unlikely. Of course it's possible, and there's some evidence to support it, but there just isn't nearly enough to convince me. If God came down and spoke with us, then that'd probably convince me.

Another point we didn't mention is, where did God come from? Was he always there? Did he just form from nothing? As unlikely as it is that these incredibly complex and diverse beings formed from a spinning pile of rock, how likely is it that an omnipotent, omniscient being formed from nothing?

[Kaber]

The bible has met every test that unbiased people have thrown at it... When the bible is taken in context, it meets every objection.

I am very interested in learning more about this. Any information or links you could provide would be appreciated.

Please don't direct me to the bible as I already have multiple translations of that fine book.

I'd also like to know if any of you have taken the time to read the holy texts of other religions besides your own.

[Foo Fighter]

Another point we didn't mention is, where did God come from? Was he always there? Did he just form from nothing? As unlikely as it is that these incredibly complex and diverse beings formed from a spinning pile of rock, how likely is it that an omnipotent, omniscient being formed from nothing?

I know where you're coming from, this has boggled my mind as well. What is he, where did he come from, how did he come do be....nothing seems to make any logical sense.

Another question that has always vexed my brain is...where did the universe come from? Think about it, space is, as we know it, and endless void...a vacuum. According to the "Big Bang" theory, the universe began from a central mass of "stuff"....there was a massive explosion, and everything scattered...formed into stars, planets, solar systems, galaxies. And from this, life as we know it just accidentally formed? Granted, I am not an astrophysicist, but this just can't be right. Science always dismisses events of this magnitude as spontaneous accidents, which is a foolish conclusion. IMO, there is about as much chance that the universe and life itself were created spontaneously, purely by accident, as the chance that Jason Dunn is actually Mike Mace in disguise. So far the explanations presented by science are even more difficult to believe than the existence of a God. It defies all logic.

[Janak Parekh]

It defies all logic.
Of course, if you want to get introspective, what exactly is logic, and what exactly is logical? :D Why aren't 1-in-a-million possibilities logical? Or maybe they use some deeper, underlying logic?

Time to break out those Sci-Fi books, Foo...

--janak

[Weyoun6]

I am very interested in learning more about this. Any information or links you could provide would be appreciated.

Please don't direct me to the bible as I already have multiple translations of that fine book.

I'd also like to know if any of you have taken the time to read the holy texts of other religions besides your own.

www.Reasons.org is very good for many scientifically based observations about the bible. Dr. Hugh Ross, has many good books as well. I agree with his interpretation of the Genesis chapters, since it makes perfect sense to me.

www.str.org - basic apologetics site covering lots of topics

However, I have learned some of the info about the bible through my Apologetics teacher. He explained about the Hebrew language and worldview, and we listened to debates and did some ourselves. He also had us research the basic tenets of other religions.

I have not, as of yet, read any other religious book. I am, however interested in reading them, I just haven't gotten around to it.

I will have to finish this post later. G2G

[Foo Fighter]

It defies all logic.
Of course, if you want to get introspective, what exactly is logic, and what exactly is logical? :D Why aren't 1-in-a-million possibilities logical? Or maybe they use some deeper, underlying logic?

Ah!!!! SENSORY OVERLOAD.....I CAN'T TAKE ANYMORE! :crazyeyes:

I have to say though, the very idea that there is no life after death scares the hell out of me. To think that one day, I'll just close my eyes and cease to exist terrifies me to no end. Never again to feel love, pain, happiness, or pride....or worse: never to see my dreams come true. For me, that is hell. If there is nothing waiting for me at the end of my life, then the universe has played one hell of a cruel joke on me. 8O

[Janak Parekh]

I have to say though, the very idea that there is no life after death scares the hell out of me.
Oh, I don't know about that. I perceive such a sensation as a never-ending sleep. I think I could deal... so long as my Pocket PC is in my terminal dreams. ;)

Think about it: no getting up and going to work, no feeling tired and imbibing caffeine, no taxes, no bills, nothing.

You gotta look at the positive side of things. As to me, my only fear is that my death will be painful. I can't worry about what happens after that, and if I start wandering along those thoughts, I either invoke the aforementioned thought, or my religion.

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Oh, I don't know about that. I perceive such a sensation as a never-ending sleep.

Screw that. I want to come back again and live out another life. I'll pass on the dirt nap, thank you very much! :lol:

[Janak Parekh]

Screw that. I want to come back again and live out another life. I'll pass on the dirt nap, thank you very much! :lol:
Time to convert to Hinduism, Foo. Only problem is you might be reincarnated as an ant. :lol:

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Time to convert to Hinduism, Foo. Only problem is you might be reincarnated as an ant. :lol:


No thanks, I'll pass on religion as well. All religions are just a bit nutty as far as I'm concerned.

[Kaber]

Thanks for the Apologetics links. I haven't studied that school much. I'll be sure to wrap my head around it.

But I do want to say that if the sole purpose of this life is to try and make it to some other better life in some other reality by pleasing some all purpose deity who set us up in the first place knowing full well what was going to happen... well that just chaps my hide. He better have had a damn good reason.

You hear me up there!
/me shakes his fist at the sky

[baker]

II Timothy - 16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

[Sheynk]

wow!

this topic got huge!

foo, u r on a roll

hanukah...best holiday...oh yeah we are on the whole life after death thing... :( what a great topic for sunday afternoon! :wink:

[Pat Logsdon]

No thanks, I'll pass on religion as well. All religions are just a bit nutty as far as I'm concerned.

Agreed. Very interesting topic, by the way. In my opinion, pretty much all religions started as a means to control a mostly uneducated population, or segments thereof. Find a guy that appeals to the masses, put him up as an example, and build a bunch of rules around him that get you money and power. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Note that I have no problem with "prophets", etc. - I think they're mostly harmless and generally have interesting things to say. But the problem comes when you get "apostles" and "priests", and they build a bandwagon, and the fingers start pointing - bad things ensue, and everything gets away from what the prophet was trying to say. In Jesus' case, I'm pretty sure his point was that we should be nice to each other. Worked out well, didn't it?

Personally, I'm not agnostic, I'm not atheist, I'm not anything. I think those labels are mostly for people that have a need to separate themselves from religion for personal reasons. In my case, I just don't care much either way, since there's absolutely no way to prove either side in a way that will convince most people. In other words, what's the point of worrying about it? If you need a clear set of rules for why you shouldn't kill someone or sleep with his wife or goat or something, that's fine, but I think any religion could be replaced with a little bit of common sense and some basic ethics. As for what happens when we die - we'll find out eventually, right? :)

[DrtyBlvd]

In any case, I'm Hindu, so it's pretty simple: we're reincarnated. Unless we achieve enlightenment. I don't think being a Pocket PC admin equates to that, unfortunately. ;)

--janak

Come again :?: :lol:

[baker]

Surgical Snack, You've hit it. Where do we find those "basic ethics" defined? Who defines? Who sets the measure?

[DrtyBlvd]

In my opinion, pretty much all religions started as a means to control a mostly uneducated population, or segments thereof. Find a guy that appeals to the masses, put him up as an example, and build a bunch of rules around him that get you money and power. Rinse, lather, repeat.

Perfect.

[baker]

If interested check out these books:
The Case for Christ
The Case for Faith
Both by author Lee Strobel

[Foo Fighter]

If there is life after death, I wonder if we still have free will? For example, are we even allowed to come back (reincarnation) or is that door closed permanently? Do we have to move on to a higher plane of existence? Or can we come back if we so choose?

[Janak Parekh]

In any case, I'm Hindu, so it's pretty simple: we're reincarnated. Unless we achieve enlightenment. I don't think being a Pocket PC admin equates to that, unfortunately. ;)
Come again :?: :lol:
One of the principal ideas behind Hinduism is that physical life on Earth is a fairly dreary one, and worse, your consciousness transports from your body into a new Earthly form when you die (i.e., reincarnation). The new form, however, may vary based on how "good" or "bad" you were in your previous life.

In any case, the "ultimate goal" is to achieve spiritual enlightenment, by which you can permanently disassociate yourself of the cycle of Earthly existence and achieve a higher level (i.e., one with your Creator).

My subtle joke was on the latter point.

In any case, while I technically ascribe to this belief, I'm not particularly religious. I haven't gone to a temple in years. My active, day-to-day "guidance" is based on my being an engineer: use logic to determine the "correct" choice. Of course, as I pointed out to Foo, logic by definition is an indefinite thing. :D

--janak

[baker]

I Corinthians 15: 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

I Corinthian 10: 23 All things are lawful, but not all things are profitable. All things are lawful, but not all things edify.

[Rirath]

I have to say though, the very idea that there is no life after death scares the hell out of me. To think that one day, I'll just close my eyes and cease to exist terrifies me to no end.

Personally, I find myself somewhat equally scared by the idea of eternal life. Especially the traditional views of Heaven and such. I mean, it sorta seems like being locked into a neverending state of being, under someone else's control. I love every day of life, but just thinking about being around for all eternity really makes me mentally change the subject. Hopefully if that is the case, such feelings will be long left behind.

[Foo Fighter]

Personally, I find myself somewhat equally scared by the idea of eternal life. Especially the traditional views of Heaven and such. I mean, it sorta seems like being locked into a neverending state of being, under someone else's control. I love every day of life, but just thinking about being around for all eternity really makes me mentally change the subject. Hopefully if that is the case, such feelings will be long left behind.

Well, this is one reason why the notion of reincarnation holds such appeal for me. I love being alive as well, and nothing would give me greater pleasure..or fulfillment than having a chance to return and live again. As the song says..."Heaven can wait, this is paradise".

[DrtyBlvd]

An observation - the Question of 'Life after death' doesn't necessarily have to be a religeous 'discussion'

Separately - has anyone watched someone die?

I did - my Mom - and it was the strangest thing - what I'm about to say may say more about me than the actual 'event', but still; it was not a 'quiet' affair - much like in life, she went making a fair bit of noise - call it the 'death rattle' if you will; and then she was gone.

I don't mean she was dead - she was gone

It's a little hard to articulate - imagine trying to describe a colour to a blind person - but the closest I can come using the written word is that where when she was living she was a glass of water, when she actually died, she was just a glass...?

Very strange. I've no religeous overtones to throw on it, or 'other world' beliefs, this is purely what I saw, and perceived - it wasn't (or at least I don't think it was) a reaction of grief - that came about 5 minutes later as I realised the extent of things - which was the finality of it all - it was a real 'observation' -

'Huh. How 'bout that. She's gone.'

Very weird. So, in context, Life after death? Existence after death? I don't know - but I do know that looking at her as she lay there - or rather as it lay there, whatever she had been that wasn't flesh and blood had left; departed; been poured away; vamoosed; split...you name it.

The realisation that we are three things; Flesh, Blood and whatever are, in fact, three things of which only two are permanent came as a very real tangible appreciation....

Sure, you can appreciate that without witnessing it right? Not difficult is it?

But you see it, and it's a different thing. A very different thing.

Doesn't mean I have the faintest idea where she went though :wink:

If that's it, if that's the point at which the data is lost - the final FDisk - well, fine, as we can't do much about it anyway so no point worrying .... but the fact that what I saw lying there was just a shell leads me to believe that, along an almost 'metaphysical' route, with things (matter) being neither created nor destroyed, it depends on the substance of the third item.

A Soul? Can you substantiate that you have one? Having witnessed somebody losing something that wasn't flesh and blood but was the very essence of their being, I'd say you can, yes - and therfore I have to conclude that it did actually 'go' somewhere.

Heaven & Hell? Naw. To go back to my start point, that's bringing religeon into it :lol:

Where to then?

God only knows :wink:

[DrtyBlvd]

In any case, I'm Hindu, so it's pretty simple: we're reincarnated. Unless we achieve enlightenment. I don't think being a Pocket PC admin equates to that, unfortunately. ;)
Come again :?: :lol:
One of the principal ideas behind Hinduism is that physical life on Earth is a fairly dreary one, and worse, your consciousness transports from your body into a new Earthly form when you die (i.e., reincarnation). The new form, however, may vary based on how "good" or "bad" you were in your previous life.

In any case, the "ultimate goal" is to achieve spiritual enlightenment, by which you can permanently disassociate yourself of the cycle of Earthly existence and achieve a higher level (i.e., one with your Creator).

My subtle joke was on the latter point.

In any case, while I technically ascribe to this belief, I'm not particularly religious. I haven't gone to a temple in years. My active, day-to-day "guidance" is based on my being an engineer: use logic to determine the "correct" choice. Of course, as I pointed out to Foo, logic by definition is an indefinite thing. :D

--janak

*Ahem*

'Twas a joke dear Sir, a joke :lol:

(Of course, that's not to disparage your further comments in the slightest, merely meant as a light-hearted bit of humour!;)

[Janak Parekh]

'Twas a joke dear Sir, a joke :lol:
Well, then, you shouldn't use the :?: smiley... you sounded confused. ;)

Foo: you might like reincarnation, but what if you were reincarnated as... say... Carl Y's grandson? Doomed to use a Zire IIIx for the rest of your life? 8O ;)

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Very interesting points, db. Sorry you lost your mother by the way. :(

When you think about it, computers prove that life after death is theoretically possible. Chew on this; If my PC is dying, or rather the hard drive, I can wirelessly transfer all data from the old HD to the new HD. In essence, I transfer the soul of one machine to another. Norton makes a piece of software that does this same process, ironically named "Ghost". Perhaps this is very much how death works? As you die, all that you are is transmitted as data to a sort of server, if you will, somewhere at some far off place. Ok, my example is kinda crazy, but the mechanics are theoretically possible....prvided there really is something on the other side.

[Foo Fighter]

Foo: you might like reincarnation, but what if you were reincarnated as... say... Carl Y's grandson? Doomed to use a Zire IIIx for the rest of your life? 8O ;)

AHHHHHHHHH!!! NO!!! NOT MY ARCH ENEMY.

If that happens, God is indeed cruel and merciless. Or he has a sick sense of humor. :wink:

[DrtyBlvd]

Thank you Foo :D

God save me from her returning to my hard drive ! (It'd be clean and uncluttered but I wouldn;t know where to find anything! ROFL)

[DrtyBlvd]

'Twas a joke dear Sir, a joke :lol:
Well, then, you shouldn't use the :?: smiley... you sounded confused. ;)

Fair point Sir :)

Foo: you might like reincarnation, but what if you were reincarnated as... say... Carl Y's grandson? Doomed to use a Zire IIIx for the rest of your life? 8O ;) --janak

Now that's just down-right nasty JP :lol:

[DrtyBlvd]

If that happens, God is indeed cruel and merciless. Or he has a sick sense of humor. :wink:

"..and I think that God has a sick sense of humour, and when I die I expect to find him laughing..." Depeche Mode

[Rirath]

Perhaps this is very much how death works? As you die, all that you are is transmitted as data to a sort of server, if you will, somewhere at some far off place.

: drool : Man would I like to know the specs on that server! Well, here's hoping when my time comes the server isn't having some sorta scheduled downtime for maintenance.

Walking down street...
hit by bus...
lying, bleeding, things going dark...
suddenly... white...

The page can not be displayed.
Please try again later.

[DrtyBlvd]

ROFL Rirath

[StarkAZ75]

very start? God or no God, there must be something at work here. And look at the Earth itself, we have all the necessary elements to sustain our life functions; water, oxygen, protein and nutrients. Is that purely dumb luck? How fortunate for us that this big blue gaseous planet with everything we need just happened to be passing our way, so we hitched a ride? That's one hell of a coincidence.


The Earth wasn't originally like this, however. The early Earth was quite inhospitable to us. It is the emergence of life on the planet that has basically terriformed it to what we have today. Our early atmosphere was much more like Venus, with high amounts of CO2. When plant life emerged, it ingested the CO2 and gave off O2, which eventually led to the rise of O2 breathing lifeforms.

So, it's not just chance that our planet is the way it is right now. If the early atmosphere had been some other element aside from CO2, who knows what sort of life forms would have emerged. Maybe we would be breathing sulfer dioxide right now.

It's only just recently in astronomy that scientists are starting to look at other possibilities for how life survives on a planet, aside from needing O2 and H2O.

I've always believed that the true test of the major religions that we have here on Earth is going to come when we actually do find life on other planets, especially if we find signs of other intelligences in the universe. How would any one of the major religions in the world reconcile the fact that their god has created beings on other planets that have absolutely no biological similarity to humans?

Personally, I think religion is something that should be kept very personal. It should be a relationship between you and whatever supreme deity which you believe in. Otherwise, you just get strife, as we've seen over the past few thousand years. On a large scale, you get events like the Crusades, the Holocaust, the Salem Witch Trials, and the Spanish Inquisition. On a smaller scale, you get group dynamics which have nothing to do with the practice or belief in a religion per se, but are actually more interested in keeping the group together at all costs. I think we've seen that a lot lately, where a group will hide the truth at the detriment of the most innocent just to sustain the group dynamics.

[Foo Fighter]

Well, here's hoping when my time comes the server isn't having some sorta scheduled downtime for maintenance.


Yeah, that will probably be my luck as well. As I pass into oblivion I'm greeted with a 404 error. :lol:

[Weyoun6]

wow... left for church, and the topic grew huge!

I would not want to be reincarnated, since there would be the chance that I would be reincarnated as a Palm Zire :)

I have found the reincarnation systems to be wholly depressing. Cycling though life again, again until you have obliderated all desires and become nothing? doesn't sound fun to me.

Somethings are impossible to describe/understand in human terms, I think heaven is one of them. It is so good, that we cant comprehend how good it is. Thats my 2 cents

[Kaber]

wow... left for church, and the topic grew huge!

How funny you have a monorail avatar. We go to Disneyland on Sundays. It's practically a religion around here. :twisted:

If you have an annual pass you might know what I mean.

PS

Is data integrity one of the major concerns about the afterlife?

[Janak Parekh]

I have found the reincarnation systems to be wholly depressing. Cycling though life again, again until you have obliderated all desires and become nothing? doesnt sound fun to me.
Well, most reincarnation beliefs state that you are reborn "fresh", with no memory of your physical life (unless you attain spiritual enlightenment). Of course, in Foo's religion we just might be able to make backups. :)

--janak

[Weyoun6]

Well, most reincarnation beliefs state that you are reborn "fresh", with no memory of your physical life (unless you attain spiritual enlightenment).

Its still depressing to me.

[Rirath]

Well, most reincarnation beliefs state that you are reborn "fresh", with no memory of your physical life (unless you attain spiritual enlightenment). Of course, in Foo's religion we just might be able to make backups. :)

Oh great... here it comes... the Church of Foo. It better be technologically impressive if I have to spend my sundays there. For that matter, I want to be able to just log on over the net. Can we have a Starbucks built in if it's early in the morning? Also, what's the name? Scientology has already been taken... so... Techtology?

[Pat Logsdon]

Oh great... here it comes... the Church of Foo. It better be technologically impressive if I have to spend my sundays there. For that matter, I want to be able to just log on over the net. Can we have a Starbucks built in if it's early in the morning? Also, what's the name? Scientology has already been taken... so... Technotology?
Maybe "Fooism"? Would that make adherents "Fools"? :D Kidding, really - it's been a long day...

[Rirath]

I think we'd get sued by Motley Fool. (The finance place)

[Janak Parekh]

Not "Fools" - "Foos". :D

Foo - now see what you've done! :x ;)

Oh, BTW, the first law of "Fooism": Thou shalt not buy a PDA that is not transflective.

--janak

[DrtyBlvd]

Thank 'Foo' for that.

Given that a fool and his money are soon parted..... :lol:

Although having said that.....

[Pat Logsdon]

Surgical Snack, You've hit it. Where do we find those "basic ethics" defined? Who defines? Who sets the measure?
A good question, and one I was kind of expecting. Basically, I think you can get those "basic ethics" from wherever you want: Aristotle, Plato, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Tom Cruise, Rush Limbaugh, whatever.

I just don't think that sitting in a church/mosque/temple or listening to a reverend/mullah/rabbi is required, since all you're really doing is supporting a fairly unnecessary and biased structure.

[DrtyBlvd]

Basically, I think you can get those "basic ethics" from wherever you want: Aristotle, Plato, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Tom Cruise, Rush Limbaugh, whatever.

Rush Limbaugh

8O

[baker]

"A good question, and one I was kind of expecting. Basically, I think you can get those "basic ethics" from wherever you want: Aristotle, Plato, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha, Joseph Smith, Tom Cruise, Rush Limbaugh, whatever.

I just don't think that sitting in a church/mosque/temple or listening to a reverend/mullah/rabbi is required, since all you're really doing is supporting a fairly unnecessary and biased structure."

Surgical Snack,
Then there are no absolutes, no true standards. It's all relative and thus reduced to personal preferences. One constructs a morality of his or her own.

[baker]

I have to say though, the very idea that there is no life after death scares the hell out of me. To think that one day, I'll just close my eyes and cease to exist terrifies me to no end.

Personally, I find myself somewhat equally scared by the idea of eternal life. Especially the traditional views of Heaven and such. I mean, it sorta seems like being locked into a neverending state of being, under someone else's control. I love every day of life, but just thinking about being around for all eternity really makes me mentally change the subject. Hopefully if that is the case, such feelings will be long left behind.

Ephesians 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Nothing to fear.

[Foo Fighter]

Oh great... here it comes... the Church of Foo.

Oh dear God no! If I am the path to enlightenment, then we are all doomed. I'm an idiot. :lol:

[Kaber]

One of the major saints of Fooism is Mr. T.

He takes pity upon the foo.

[Foo Fighter]

Its still depressing to me.

So is the thought of ceasing to exist. I'll take Reincarnation for 100, Alex. :lol:

[Foo Fighter]

Oh, BTW, the first law of "Fooism": Thou shalt not buy a PDA that is not transflective.

"On the third day God created transflective displays...and it was good".

[Rirath]

Ephesians 2:7 so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. Nothing to fear.

Indeed. But some of the myth that's been spread around really made me wonder earlier in life when I was still sorting my idea of fact from fiction.

[Foo Fighter]

Well, most reincarnation beliefs state that you are reborn "fresh", with no memory of your physical life (unless you attain spiritual enlightenment).

Well, you are reborn in the this world with no memory of your past life here. But that memory is not lost, it's simply blocked.

[Weyoun6]

Technically, nothingness is what happens after reincarnation, unless you dont reach enlightenment.

It is my belief that there is a basic ethic inside each of us. We dont need anyone to tell us something is wrong, unless our parents taught us wrong. Most of us have a concience, and it is amplified/supressed by the teachings we subscribe to, or culture. Most people think murder/rape is wrong, but why is it wrong? Enlightened self-interest doesnt answer it for me.

Ahhh the Church of Foo :werenotworthy:

[Weyoun6]

"On the third day God created transflective displays...and it was good".

That's how the original Hebrew reads if translated properly. :wink:

[Rirath]

Most people think murder/rape is wrong, but why is it wrong? Enlightened self-interest doesnt answer it for me.

Here's a reason... because you yourself would not want to be raped and/or murdered?

[Foo Fighter]

Ahhh the Church of Foo :werenotworthy:

Ha! Well if I am right about anything, then Shakespeare hit the nail squarely on the head..."life's but a walking shadow, a poor player that struts and frets his hour upon the stage and then is heard no more: it is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

[Steven Cedrone]

You guys are just not gonna' let this thread die(and go on to the afterlife), huh??? :wink:

Just curious...

Steve

[Pat Logsdon]

Then there are no absolutes, no true standards. It's all relative and thus reduced to personal preferences. One constructs a morality of his or her own.
Correct. In my opinion, of course. :D Show me an absolute and I'll show you someone who doesn't want to be wrong.

And yes, I think that everyone does construct a morality of their own, based on their experiences and preferences. You didn't let someone dictate to you what you will and won't believe, did you? That's a personal decision. I'm not going to go out and join the Church of Satan, and you're free to convert to Zoroastrianism. It's not like we don't have a choice - it's just what you choose to believe in.

[Paul P]

I think we can all agree on one thing, that God is a Pocket PC user and that the Devil, well, a Pocket PC user as well (I mean, why wouldn't he be right? :vamp: ).

[StarkAZ75]

I think we can all agree on one thing, that God is a Pocket PC user and that the Devil, well, a Pocket PC user as well (I mean, why wouldn't he be right? :vamp: ).

But I thought Bill Gates just admitted that he didn't use a Pocket PC.

[Paul P]

I think we can all agree on one thing, that God is a Pocket PC user and that the Devil, well, a Pocket PC user as well (I mean, why wouldn't he be right? :vamp: ).

But I thought Bill Gates just admitted that he didn't use a Pocket PC.

:lol:
Nice

[targetdrone]

My brother is an athiest. I am agnostic. To prove a point during an arguement one day, I bought his soul for thirteen cents.

I did come up with a mantra of sorts for him though, when I summarized the athiest viewpoint: Life after birth and death after life.

It is my opinion that people wave their Christian flag prematurely. eg. That teenage girl that came from Mexico for organ transplants and got the wrong type and is now brain-dead. Before the first surgery, the parents were all over TV thanking 'God' and saying 'He' made it all possible. But when something goes wrong, hire a contingency lawyer at the drop of a hat to sue everybody they can, rather than saying that perhaps 'God' had intended this all along. Give me a freakin' break!

[Rirath]

My brother is an athiest. I am agnostic. To prove a point during an arguement one day, I bought his soul for thirteen cents.

I have absolutely no idea what point you believe that proved. :|

I did come up with a mantra of sorts for him though, when I summarized the athiest viewpoint: Life after birth and death after life.

Really? I thought the athiest viewpoint was already pretty well summed up with "There is no God." I'm pretty sure athiests are allowed to believe in the afterlife... just not God or Gods.

It is my opinion that people wave their Christian flag prematurely. eg. That teenage girl that came from Mexico for organ transplants and got the wrong type and is now brain-dead. Before the first surgery, the parents were all over TV thanking 'God' and saying 'He' made it all possible. But when something goes wrong, hire a contingency lawyer at the drop of a hat to sue everybody they can, rather than saying that perhaps 'God' had intended this all along. Give me a freakin' break!

So what? You'd rather have them on TV "Yeah, so what... we didn't like her much anyway." Of course they're going to be overjoyed at the idea of saving her life. Of course they're going to be thankful. And if a mistake was made, the ones responsible should indeed be held accountable.

[baker]

Free Will. It's there. A standard, a plumb line is needed. Conscience...how could that be happen stance. No one, including me, is perfect here. That's why you look up to the perfect example in faith.

[Foo Fighter]

I definitely am NOT an atheist. While I am skeptical about the existence of God and the afterlife...sometimes to a certainty, I still remain open to any possibility. And you know...Aetheists strike me as a religious cult in and of itself. These people often gather at meetings and form clubs. Now if they really don't believe in God, why bother forming discussion groups to talk about? They seem to have something to prove, and often I find that a typical atheist holds a deep seated anger towards God. Someone who has experienced a great deal of pain in their life such as the loss of a loved one, so they turn their back on God.

[Rirath]

why bother forming discussion groups to talk about?

Yeah... why would a bunch of people gather to talk needlessly about a subject? :lol:

Sorry sorry, couldn't resist. :wink:

[Foo Fighter]

Yeah... why would a bunch of people gather to talk needlessly about a subject? :lol:

Sorry sorry, couldn't resist. :wink:

Well there is a big difference in our case, we are debating the afterlife and God from EVERY viewpoint. But what sense does it make for atheists to discuss God when they've already concluded he doesn't exist? :?