OHG! I thought I was confused before! eVC *NEWBIE* needs *HELP*

[PPCdev]

Much more of this and Im gonna swipe some of the wife's Prozac! Jesus! Help!

A little background goes a long way, so... Ive been developing since I was about 12, started on a VIC-20 (Were going waaaay back now..), used BASIC on it and then on my C-64 (Loved that machine!). Self taught Assembly (6502) on it too! Graduated to IBMs and QuickBasic, and naturally VisualBasic, since V3.0. Im pretty fluent in VB, even written a web server program and several other nifty apps.. not to mentions some
CGIs and such.. (Also do a little PHP).

The few times I tried to learn 'C' I just gave up.. No help (no Internet then..) and totally confused.

Since I gotten my dear PPC, Ive grown found of it, and that drives me to want to develop apps for it. Im a beginner at 'C', so when I downloaded eMbedded Visual Tools 3.0, I started with eVB only to find it wont do native compile (Not that VB ever did mind you...) or any sort of executable binary. However, eVC will (correct me if Im wrong), and thats one of my priorities.

Its time for me to graduate to a real language, 'C'!!

To get on with the post, I later installed eVC and started it up, and man I was lost! I generated the sample 'Hello World' program from the start menu and I saw like 150 lines of code just to say 'Hello World'!! Man, Im intemidated now (Sp?).

Ive also downloaded PocketC and messed with that, and Im sure that Im on my way to learning 'C' as Ive written a few masterpieces (advanced 'Hello World' programs..) with that and am getting the 'C' syntax grasp.

However, the IDE of eVC has put me to tears! I cant find any "Your a stupid newbie to eVC IDE" web sites, and books on WinCE development is pretty scarse, not to mention beginner books for that are almost non-exisitent.

Any suggestions, advice, help, links or comments are welcome! I need help getting started, if I can just get over that inital hurtle Id be on my way to asking advanced questions, like ADO access to DB files, etc.. :-)

As a side note, if theres anyone willing to give a hand out and communicate via e-mail answering any questions until I can cut the apron string, it would be a big help, and I got a PayPal account so Ill send you a buck or two! :-)

Many thanks for reading this far in such a long winded post.
Andrew Daniel

[EvilOne]

One book that I like for WinCE development is:

Programming Microsoft® Windows® CE, Second Edition
http://www.microsoft.com/mspress/books/5461.asp

The book's code is all in C and of course all the source is on the CD that comes with the book too. But if you are looking for books on C.. Umm, it has been a long time since I got one of those, maybe some other people can help you out with that. But, try to stay away from those Dietel and Dietel books.

[Rirath]

I had to drop a C# class this semester that wanted me to buy a $90 dietel book from Amazon.uk of all places and pay to have it shipped. Geesh... no thanks. For that price (+ tuition) I'll find a cheaper book / online info and go solo.

It's a little off topic, but I'd highly suggest looking into C# as a language to learn. It's an awful lot closer to VB, complete with a forum designer. It's a lot closer in many ways, and much more programmer-friendly than C/C++. In my opinion, it's not really a lesser language either. From what I know of it, it's become my language of choice.

At any rate, even in C# a windows based Hello World is still going to contain some awfully complex code. Just be thankful the program takes care of it for ya. If you really can't wrap your mind around just letting windows take care of it for now, try doing some console (dos) apps.

Here's a general C# tutorial that's pretty good and free: http://www.jaggersoft.com/csharp_course/index.html .NET 2003 full doesn't come out until the end of April, but that's plenty of time to learn the basics until then. (Which has the compact framework for pocket pc apps.)

[EvilOne]

If you decide to start playing with C# for Windows, here is a good, free, ide for it, of course you will still need to download the full .Net framework (http://msdn.microsoft.com/downloads/default.asp?url=/downloads/sample.asp?url=/msdn-files/027/000/976/msdncompositedoc.xml&frame=true). This may only be 1.0, but 1.1 will come out with Visual Studio .Net 2003.

ShaprDevelop (the free IDE, which you can also get the source for too)
http://www.icsharpcode.net/OpenSource/SD/Default.aspx

[GadgetDave]

Absolutely C# is a better language to pick up easily right now - it's very similar to Java in some of it's syntax and form, simpler than "full" C++. However, it is a cool language.

Although, if you know VB, VB.Net works with the Compact Framework, too, and does do a full compile (at least as much as C# does - both compile to an intermediate language - MSIL).

[Kati Compton]

This only applies if you're not going to switch to C#, of course.

Part of the issues that you may be having is that programming in C for *Windows* is a lot more complex than the C language itself. You can consider eVC a subset of programming with Visual C. Unfortunately, there aren't very many updated books on programming in eVC for those not already familiar with programming for Windows. I'd suggest getting a book on Visual C++ to learn that, with the understanding that not everything will translate to eVC. Then use that book in conjunction with the help files.

I would suggest learning C/C++ without the added complexity of Windows programming first, but it seems most people are too impatient for that...

Part of the problem (for me, anyway) is that there are multiple ways to do things (win32 vs. MFC, for example). So sometimes the help files can be slightly confusing if you're looking at info for the method you're not using and don't realize it.

[PPCdev]

A lot of good feedback coming my way, many thanks to all of you!

On the C#, I looked at a few books while a Books a Million and it looked like C, but it wasnt as hard to follow as C, it did look interesting! I wondered if I should go that route, but I dont know what package was out there that I could develop for WinCE using C# so I kept my focus on eVC.

Ive got a lot of learning to do! Ill look into the .NET compact framwork thingy after a while, though I anticipate I wont have the bux to throw down for that one. :-(

Im still interested in hearing from others, so please keep posting if you wish!

Thanks again!
Andrew

[PPCdev]

Question: "Compact Framework"

Am I to guess that means small little devices with embedded OS?
(IE: WinCE on PPC, etc..?)


I know thats a newbie question..

Andrew

[Peter Foot]

Question: "Compact Framework"

Am I to guess that means small little devices with embedded OS?
(IE: WinCE on PPC, etc..?)


I know thats a newbie question..

Andrew

The Compact Framework is the forthcoming compact version of the .NET Framework. The regular framework is available for desktop versions of windows and basically contains the runtime and a rich set of classes you can program with. The compact framework is a cut down version designed for small devices, currently pocket pc (2000 and 2002) are supported along with Windows CE 4.1. It is anticipated that smartphones will be supported in the future too.

You can write programs for the Compact Framework using Visual Basic .NET or C# and you will need the forthcoming 2003 version of Visual Studio.

[Peter Foot]

On the C#, I looked at a few books while a Books a Million and it looked like C, but it wasnt as hard to follow as C, it did look interesting! I wondered if I should go that route, but I dont know what package was out there that I could develop for WinCE using C# so I kept my focus on eVC.

C# is an elegant syntax and is indeed derived from C so its instantly familiar although you have none of the "mess" required to do windows programming, in this sense its somewhat closer to the VB way.

Unfortunatly to develop with C# for Pocket PC you need Visual Studio 2003 (I'm not sure if the required functionality is available in the single language C# package). This is not yet released, so currently only Beta testers and MSDN subscribers have access to the required tools. I suspect it will be very popular when released because it is more powerful and extensible than eVB and much quicker and simpler to write than good-ole eVC++.

At the end of the day if you get familiar with C++ you'll be well equipped to make the switch later.

[Rirath]

Unfortunatly to develop with C# you need Visual Studio 2003 (I'm not sure if the required functionality is available in the single language C# package). This is not yet released, so currently only Beta testers and MSDN subscribers have access to the required tools.

Do you mean for pocket pc? My VS.NET 2002 seems fully C# ready.

[Peter Foot]

Unfortunatly to develop with C# you need Visual Studio 2003 (I'm not sure if the required functionality is available in the single language C# package). This is not yet released, so currently only Beta testers and MSDN subscribers have access to the required tools.

Do you mean for pocket pc? My VS.NET 2002 seems fully C# ready.

Yes, to develop for the Compact Framework...

[VanHlebar]

Is C# a compiled language or interpreted? If not compiled then how are are the speed of the applications compared to C++? I know I originally wrote an applciation back in 2001 for my PPC in eVB, but it go so big that it was just unbareably slow. I have spent the last month "converting" it to eVC++ and adding functionality.

I keep seeing all these articles and books on C# and never understood what was "better" C# or C++. I have enough understanding of C++ but if everything is going to move in the C# direction in the future, then maybe I would start looking at it.

Thanks,
-Eric

[PPCdev]

Another good question for me is, is eVC++ compiled or interp?

I *hate* anything that requires a runtime for a Hello World to run!

[Kati Compton]

Another good question for me is, is eVC++ compiled or interp?

I *hate* anything that requires a runtime for a Hello World to run!

Compiled, but sometimes you need .dll's, depending on what you're doing.

[PPCdev]

Yeah, I anticipate some supporting files, but it doesnt require a runtime for the .exe by its self to execute. Thats always been an issue with me using VB. And eVB doesnt even make an .exe to start with, and forces users to install (I think) 4 .DLL files with each project, the same ones needed for the eVB "program" to run. Thats crap, sorry but thats my opinion.

eVB is easy as lard is greasy, but if your going to develop for others to use, its not a good choice.

Thanks for everyone's help!

I *think* for the time being, and since the .NET is not out, and when it does I wont have the Jack to get it, and since I have eVC++ 3.0 and 4.0, Ill just hammer at the eVC until something else "falls" onto my HD that I can use.

Thanks again everyone, you all have give a lot of support and information! Now, just wish me luck!

Andrew Daniel

[Rirath]

If you have or can get VS.NET, you can upgrade for like $29 counting shipping I believe. Though, it does require the compact framework on the end users machine far as I know and that's still a royal pain for awhile longer. :|

I still have to give one more push toward C# ;)

[gwinter]

Is C# a compiled language or interpreted? If not compiled then how are are the speed of the applications compared to C++? I know I originally wrote an applciation back in 2001 for my PPC in eVB, but it go so big that it was just unbareably slow. I have spent the last month "converting" it to eVC++ and adding functionality.

I keep seeing all these articles and books on C# and never understood what was "better" C# or C++. I have enough understanding of C++ but if everything is going to move in the C# direction in the future, then maybe I would start looking at it.

Thanks,
-Eric

From what I know, it is compiled into an intermediate-language (MSIL) like java. During runtime, a JIT compiler will compile the code for native execution. However, this JIT-compiled code can be stored in memory cache so that it doesn't have to be re-compiled everytime the code is called (if memory is getting critically low, the cache could be cleared as well). Also, it seems that developer can also choose to have the code compiled during program installation, which means that native code is permanently stored. All these are with regards to .NET Framework, I don't know how much of it applies to the Compact Framework.

As for which language is "better", the answer is "it depends". Programming languages are tools, some are more suitable for the task at hand than others. Personal "taste" is also a factor in selecting a programming language. However, with .NET Framework, MS is trying to make the answer to this question to be "it doesn't matter". Since everything is compiled into MSIL, it doens't matter what language was used. In fact, VS .NET is designed so that support for other languages can be added (COBOL, anyone?).


I learn programming by myself, starting from GW-BASIC on the old XT machine to C, C++. I never really program much, just learning to see what a "computer" can do. For me there is a huge gap difference between writing a sequential execution program and a windows-based program. Writing an event-based program seems so much more complex to me that till today I'm still trying to get a hang of it... :oops:

By the way, anyone know if the VB/C++/C# Standard package support .NET CF project?