IBM Mulls Linux Based PDA

[Ed Hansberry]

<a href="http://news.com.com/2100-1040-981443.html?tag=fd_top">http://news.com.com/2100-1040-981443.html?tag=fd_top</a><br /><br />"IBM's Microelectronics division announced on Tuesday it will offer a PDA blueprint aimed at fostering the development of new versions of handhelds based on its PowerPC 405LP chip and MontaVista Software's Linux. The companies are exhibiting their wares at this week's LinuxWorld trade show in New York."<br /><br />I'm all for competition, but except for servers, I am so convinced that the point of running Linux is, uhm... to say you run Linux. I just don't run operating systems. I run apps. Well, to each his own I guess. At one time there were no apps for Palms or Pocket PCs either.<br /><br />This could be good for company specific devices too. "The design will be offered in a kit that likely will cost $1,000 or less. IBM said its licensing terms are less restrictive than others because it doesn't specify hardware features, such as screen size, or require that its logo be used."

[someppcuser]

I disagree with you on apps. There are tons of Linux apps, that can easily be ported to a PDA. The big advantage is that most Software on Linux is OSS.

[szamot]

Linux on iPAQ was sponsored by - you guess it Compaq. This is why they were so eager to fix these things when, how should I say this, they got broken when installing the new OS. Been there, done that, will never get the weekend back, send off iPAQ because restore did not work. I think you said it best, I too run apps, OS is what carries them. Linux can't carry much on a PDA, not yet, not for a while if ever.

[unxmully]

Linux on iPAQ was sponsored by - you guess it Compaq. This is why they were so eager to fix these things when, how should I say this, they got broken when installing the new OS. Been there, done that, will never get the weekend back, send off iPAQ because restore did not work. I think you said it best, I too run apps, OS is what carries them. Linux can't carry much on a PDA, not yet, not for a while if ever.

So few apps that Handango doesn't have a page for them yet, well apart from http://www.handango.com/sharp/ . The UML modelling tool looks pretty cool as does the Project Planner.

Surprising what a quick google for Zaurus Applications shows up isn't it?

[lenk]

"IBM said its licensing terms are less restrictive than others because it doesn't specify hardware features, such as screen size, or require that its logo be used."

In my opinion, one of the keys to success of the Pocket PC platform has been the standard screen size. As an application developer, this fixed format screen allows me to develop the GUI once, for all devices. If this is not standard, the portability becomes a nightmare, particularly if you are trying to create a custom look and feel. I think IBM may be making a tactical error here.

[Foo Fighter]

There are tons of Linux apps, that can easily be ported to a PDA.

The problem is, we've been down this road before and it leads to ultimate failure. Remember years ago when Microsoft was condemned for trying to shoehorn a Desktop OS into a PDA. It resulted in disaster for WinCE, or rather Palm-size PC.

Now the Linux community is attempting the same feat, and suddenly shoving a Desktop OS into a handheld is ok...bucause its Linux. Seems hypocritical to me. :roll:

I have no desire to run desktop applications on my PDA. Nor do I give a damn that have access to the command line at any time, as if that feature is even usable or necessary on a PDA. Linux developers are even more clueless about the mobile landscape than Microsoft was back in the day.

[TQBrady]

I'm all for competition, but except for servers, I am so convinced that the point of running Linux is, uhm... to say you run Linux.

Ohhh, ED! I really liked you until now!

It's one thing to point out that Linux is not ready for the desktop. It's another to say that people who claim that it is are just unaware of their transcendant geekiness and the lack of the common man's desire to subvert Bill Gates. It's wholly another thing to make that comment!

What about application bundles that cost thousand and thousands of dollars that you can get free for Linux? If you're a developer you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. How about FilmGimp - the tool that was used on Lord of the Rings? It's FREE for Linux and Mac OS X. The closes commercial equivalent costs more than my car!

And here's the point that you're missing on Linux apps. Two points, actually. 1) There will not likely be a big commercial market for Linux apps on handhelds unti they push further into the mainstream. For the time beging the vast majority of Zaurus owners can write their own apps, and are not motivated to sell them. You can find their software on community sites like http://www.zauruszone.com. 2) The big software benefit is that the Linux OS that's running on the Zaurus is the SAME OS that's running on desktops and servers. Porting is the simpler task of making sure your software will work within the confines of a small screen, and with the input device of a stylus rather than a mouse.

I like this site, but you guys have GOT to be more open-minded! Microsoft is NOT the holiest of holy OSs! Pocket PCs is NOT the be-all, end-all handheld platform! THERE ISN'T ONE, YET; APPLE HASN'T GOTTEN AROUND TO IT!(Please understand that's a joke)

I know some of you guys are Microsoft MVPs, but don't they let you have an opinion and keep the baseball cap?

[Ed Hansberry]

I'm all for competition, but except for servers, I am so convinced that the point of running Linux is, uhm... to say you run Linux.

Ohhh, ED! I really liked you until now!

It's one thing to point out that Linux is not ready for the desktop. It's another to say that people who claim that it is are just unaware of their transcendant geekiness and the lack of the common man's desire to subvert Bill Gates. It's wholly another thing to make that comment!

What about application bundles that cost thousand and thousands of dollars that you can get free for Linux? If you're a developer you know EXACTLY what I'm talking about. How about FilmGimp - the tool that was used on Lord of the Rings? It's FREE for Linux and Mac OS X. The closes commercial equivalent costs more than my car!
I know, and my statement wasn't meant to be 100%. There are some apps like you say that are better or at least cheaper on Linux, which is Unix. I like Unix. I've used it before. But you are talking workstation (not desktop) apps here and is a very very very small percentage of the installed computing base. I wasn't trying to start a Linux flame war or anything, but if there is so little reason to run Linux on a desktop, the reasons for running it on a PDA are fewer still.

[Janak Parekh]

Now the Linux community is attempting the same feat, and suddenly shoving a Desktop OS into a handheld is ok...bucause its Linux. Seems hypocritical to me. :roll:
I wasn't trying to start a Linux flame war or anything, but if there is so little reason to run Linux on a desktop, the reasons for running it on a PDA are fewer still.
I agree with both of you guys that taking a desktop Linux distribution and stuffing it down into PDAs is a waste of time. However, it's worth pointing out that the Linux kernel, much like the WinCE kernel, is very lightweight, modular, and portable, and as such provides a very convenient platform for software development.

I don't think you'll see Linux PDAs take off until there's a good standardized frontend, much like how Pocket PC is for WinCE; but let's not confuse the desktop platform and the kernel itself. Qtopia (http://www.trolltech.com/products/qtopia/) is a start, but it's not nearly enough.

--janak

[Foo Fighter]

Given the right development and investment, I believe Linux will one day come to rival...and perhaps even supplant Windows on the desktop. Right now the current GUI environments just don't measure up. The problem is that KDE and Gnome are at least two generations behind XP and OSX. Linux is just trying to catch up to a point that Microsoft and Apple have already abandoned.

[Janak Parekh]

Right now the current GUI environments just don't measure up. The problem is that KDE and Gnome are at least two generations behind XP and OSX.
Indeed. Don't forget that the lack of a standardized object interoperability API (like OLE) is also a major stumbling block. However, we probably should avoid turning this into a desktop OS flamewar. ;)

--janak

[TQBrady]

Can't argue with that. Wait, yeah I can.

I totally agree that there are a plethora of usability issues, but they are not behind on technology. If any of you have seen the preview screen-shots of Longhorn and you have used KDE before, you recognize that Longhorn is ripping multiple desktop features right out of KDE and popping them into Longhorn(not to mention taking the dock from NeXT=>OS X).

Anyway, I know what you mean. They are several years behind as far as usability goes. As far as technology goes, though, they're the bleeding edge. The Sharp Zaurus has IPv6 before the Windows OS had it. Unbelievable.

Consider this, too: Microsoft has been around 25 years. Apple started just shortly after Microsoft. Linux didn't start until the 90s. I know, I know, they're based on UNIX, which predates all of this stuf, but it's not that easy. UNIX wasn't originally designed to do what Linux is doing now, so it's a pretty big departure from its roots(although Unix did end up taking a similar direction after the onset of Linux, some would say as a reaction to Linux).

No flames here. I use Windows, Mac OS X, and Linux. I also use apps that were developed in and for Linux on Windows and Mac OS X. I have owned a Sharp Zaurus, a few iPAQs, a couple Handsprings, and Audiovox Maestro, and now a Tungsten T. They all serve their purpose. It all depends on what you want your machine to do for you.

[/dev/niall]

So few apps that Handango doesn't have a page for them yet, well apart from http://www.handango.com/sharp/ . The UML modelling tool looks pretty cool as does the Project Planner.

Surprising what a quick google for Zaurus Applications shows up isn't it?

There's 705 ready to go here (http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/stats.php), or you can setup a cross-compiler (http://www.zauruszone.com/howtos/linux_compiler_setup_howto.shtml) or install the GNU compiler directly on the device per instructions here (http://home.arcor.de/xavierxeon/devel/gcc/gcc_Zinstall.html) and compile/port a sizable percentage of the 26,714 projects available here (http://freshmeat.net/stats/).

It's just a different community, that's all.

[unxmully]

So few apps that Handango doesn't have a page for them yet, well apart from http://www.handango.com/sharp/ . The UML modelling tool looks pretty cool as does the Project Planner.

Surprising what a quick google for Zaurus Applications shows up isn't it?

There's 705 ready to go here (http://www.killefiz.de/zaurus/stats.php), or you can setup a cross-compiler (http://www.zauruszone.com/howtos/linux_compiler_setup_howto.shtml) or install the GNU compiler directly on the device per instructions here (http://home.arcor.de/xavierxeon/devel/gcc/gcc_Zinstall.html) and compile/port a sizable percentage of the 26,714 projects available here (http://freshmeat.net/stats/).

It's just a different community, that's all.

So the lack of apps would appear not to be an issue at all.

[/dev/niall]

So the lack of apps would appear not to be an issue at all.

Not the numbers, but they're certainly not as visible as the multitude of Pocket PC applications out there. I also doubt most consumers would be willing to devote device resources to a development environment, or setup a cross compiler on their desktop system so they can port stuff. Like I said, just a different community. ;)

[unxmully]

So the lack of apps would appear not to be an issue at all.

Not the numbers, but they're certainly not as visible as the multitude of Pocket PC applications out there. I also doubt most consumers would be willing to devote device resources to a development environment, or setup a cross compiler on their desktop system so they can port stuff. Like I said, just a different community. ;)

Most of the stuff I was looking at was precompiled apps so needing to do the dev environment bit didn't come into it.

But look at Pocket PC apps versus Palm when CE first hit the streets, 15,000 palm apps and 3 CE. It's all a bit different now.