Manipulate Morally Magnificent? Part I

[Andy Sjostrom]

<a href="http://xda-developers.com/manipulator/">http://xda-developers.com/manipulator/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6047">xda-developers.com</a> is run by a bunch of hard core Pocket PC Phone Edition enthusiasts that enjoy "taking stuff apart to see how it works". As for me, taking something apart usually means seeing how it doesn't work. This time they have come up with an "XDA manipulator", a tool that sits on top of the GSM radio bits in the device. "XDA manipulator" can unlock a SIM-locked device. But beware, the tool is totally unsupported and can potentially break your device.<br /><br />Morally, this is a balancing act. If I had bought a SIM-locked device without a subscription and paid the full price for it, then perhaps I would consider using this software to unlock it. Had I let a carrier subsidize the device in exchange for a subscription, then I would consider using this software to unlock the device immoral.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/xdaman_01.gif" />

[Samuel]

Just one interesting point. Why would you consider it 'immoral'? OK, if your network operator has subsidised your handset, in most cases, you'll still be paying your subscription to your network even if you unlock the device and use it with another network.

Yes, your original network is missing out on your call charges, but if your intention was always going to unlock your device and use it somewhere else, you're unlikely to choose a high charging tariff. Therefore, your subisdy is going to be lower.

I don't think anyone is losing here or am I missing something?

[Andy Sjostrom]

If I bought the device highly subsidized, unlocked it and went with another operator, then that would be immoral in my opinion. The first operator bought the device from the manufacturer and counted on getting back the investment from my subscription. By unlocking the device I break that contract.

[FredMurphy]

I don't know if this work differently in Sweden to the way the do in the UK but if you buy a subsidised phone, aren't you contractually tied into a 12 months contract with your network?

The subsidy is covered by the profits they make during the 12 months you are paying line rental, call costs etc. Even if you did use your XDA on another network the line rental on your unused contract would still mean the telco don't lose out.

Fred

[denivan]

I highly doubt that a Telco would be glad if everybody started doing that. Even though you sign a contract for only 12 months, I'm sure they hope that you keep prolonging your service. Anyway, in Belgium subsidized phones are forbidden , so we allways pay the full monty for our phones. On one hand that sux, on the other hand : our nation's Telco's don't have to worry about cash problems like everywhere else ;)

[Delta737]

...and I'm not allowed to place 5 year old Palm Roms. If that's not allowed, than this isn't either.

Personally I don't really care about, but I think you're meassuring with double standards...

[jayman]

Not being the most technically minded, I am still unsure how this works.

On the developers site they had already provided details of how to unlock the phone - but only for a specific ROM and Stack.

Will this software now work on any ROM or phone stack or just the old one?

Jayman.

[Samuel]

I don't know if this work differently in Sweden to the way the do in the UK but if you buy a subsidised phone, aren't you contractually tied into a 12 months contract with your network?

The subsidy is covered by the profits they make during the 12 months you are paying line rental, call costs etc. Even if you did use your XDA on another network the line rental on your unused contract would still mean the telco don't lose out.

Fred

That's exactly my point. The network should have calculated the margin based on your subsidised price and contract revenue.

Their profits, IMHO, should come from the call charges during your contract. If people choose to use the same phone with a different provider, then it's the network's initiative to give you an attractive pricing plan to keep you there.

To draw a parallel, you buy a games console machine. Companies often sell the hardware at a loss (i.e., subsidising your handset), they recover the monies from software sales (i.e., your contract and calls).

You can buy games for other platforms, but they just won't work for your console. For a mobile, you're locked into a contract, the subsidy should equal (if not less) than your monthly charge excluding calls. This should be how the networks recover their monies. If people unlock their phones to switch networks. I imagine the primary reasons are call charges, network coverage and service. Then, it's up to the network to improve in these areas, the customer shouldn't need to bear these intangible costs. The network shouldn't lock your device so you've to go through these pains.

Anyway, things may be different in different countries. Also, I'm not associated with the mobile phone or game industries (except as a user), so I may be talking complete rubbish.

[Samuel]

I highly doubt that a Telco would be glad if everybody started doing that. Even though you sign a contract for only 12 months, I'm sure they hope that you keep prolonging your service. Anyway, in Belgium subsidized phones are forbidden , so we allways pay the full monty for our phones. On one hand that sux, on the other hand : our nation's Telco's don't have to worry about cash problems like everywhere else ;)

Not subsidising phones are increasing common with other countries as well. It may be due to people like us that switch phones/network often. :D

However, I fail to see how companies can encourage sale of new handsets if the prices are getting higher.

P.S. I've actually never changed network and I only change phones every 2 years or so - which I think isn't that often...

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I personally wouuld have no problem unlocking my phone. I signed a 12-month contract that I'm bound to pay even if my phone moonlights with another service provider.

My main purpose for unlocking the phone though would not to sign up with a competitor, but to use it occasionally in a foreign country such as Thailand. Instead of paying exorbitant roaming charges, I'd rather borrow or rent out a local SIM card and use it for a short time.

Ekkie

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Just a quick statistic from someone who is actually in the industry. I agree that unlocking the phone and switching providers is somewhat immoral. The carrier gives you the phone with the expectation that a years worth of service will pay back the subsidy of the phone.

Unfortunately, that's not 100% true. In the last few years, carriers have seen phone prices go way up, so subsidies went way up with them resulting in the return on a subsidy happening in the 13th - 15th month of a contract, meaning most subsidies are never returned because most customers switch after a year to some other service with a better plan. The ones that do stay on usually upgrade handsets, which are usually subsidized again, and the cycle starts over.

I think it's justified to do this if the carrier treats you poorly, but beyond that, you shouldn't unlock the phone straight away. In a lot of ways, it just isn't right.

[denivan]

I think it's justified to do this if the carrier treats you poorly, but beyond that, you shouldn't unlock the phone straight away. In a lot of ways, it just isn't right.

What you said about making profit only in the 13th of 15th month sounds true. Problem is that it's hard to switch from a subsidized market to a non subsidized one. Here in Belgium we're used to paying full price for phones (even after signing a two year contract) and yet people regularly buy new phones. Off course it's frustrating to see that in a country next to mine people are getting the same phone for free (like in the netherlands for instance), but on the other hand it feels good that our nation's mobile phone Telco's (mobistar and proximus) aren't struggling to stay alive like most other Telco's. The only reason why our Telco's aren't subsidizing though is because it's illegal (there's a low prohibiting it), otherwise I think they would do the same to try and lure customers.

Greetz from someone with a non subsidized T68i ;-) (paid it about 560 USD).

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Someone posted that they travel abroad and unlocking their phone saves them money as they would be allowed to use their phone in a foreign country with a foreign SIM.

That was something I hadn't considered in my original response, and that makes sense as a valid reason to unlock your phone...

I'm not passing judgment on people, I'm just expressing my opinion. If you want to unlock your phone, more power to you. I just wanted to explain why I think it's not necessarily the right thing to do.

[Paragon]

There is very definitely a fine line here.

I'll try to make my story as short as possible.

I live in Canada, where at present we don't have anyone selling the XDA. I therefore drove to Detroit and paid $550.00 for one after calling T-Mobile three times, and all three times being told I could do this, and get an unlock code. It took 2 weeks, and at first they refused it. After a few threats, and and bit of hoop jumping I got it. Problem solved for....... awhile.. My device screwed up. I had to open an account with T-Mo which I will never use, with a minimum cancellation charge of $200.00 to get the phone replaced. They don't ship to Canada, so I had to drive to Detroit again (5hrs return) twice. It wasn't there the first time when they said it would be. With new device in hand I emailed them explaining the situation and requested an unlock code. Almost two weeks later I have heard nothing....I paid a guy in Las Vegas $15.00 to unlock it for me. :roll:

Moral of the story...I think we need solutions like this for extraordinary circumstances like what I have just described. However and please this is just an my opinion I have no right to tell any one here what should be posted, and what shouldn't, so please take it as I intend it....simply my opinion. I think that by posting a link like this on the front page of a site such as Pocket PC Thoughts is in some way condoning it. Andy I think what the guys at XDa-Developers are doing is great. Many of us are benefiting from what is happening there. I think that Jason and the team here at thoughts have done an outstanding job in a rather short time. This is a premier PPC site, NO doubt. However I think posting how to hack something I think cheapens it. I know that Jason quite often speaks out how he would like to see the mainsteam.....developers, and larger corporations give Thoughts more credit. I think this undoes that. Again this is just my opinion I only mean this in a constructive manner.

Dave

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Someone posted that they travel abroad and unlocking their phone saves them money as they would be allowed to use their phone in a foreign country with a foreign SIM.

That was something I hadn't considered in my original response, and that makes sense as a valid reason to unlock your phone...

I'm not passing judgment on people, I'm just expressing my opinion. If you want to unlock your phone, more power to you. I just wanted to explain why I think it's not necessarily the right thing to do.
That was me that mentioned the foreign use.

I do agree that unlocking a phone for the purposes of using it with a competitor may be immoral (though not illegal). That having been said, I don't think there's anything wrong with actually unlocking it in case an exceptional cases should arise (Paragon's case would fall into here for sure).

[Janak Parekh]

ekkie, interestingly enough T-Mobile will hand you the unlock code without worries if you're about a month into the contract.

The only carrier in the US that lets you buy subsidized phones without a contact, I believe, is Sprint. However, their phones are highly customized and while it's sometimes possible to get them working on another CDMA provider, it's usually not worth it.

--janak

[vincentsiaw]

in many part of the world, especially asia, they don't locked the sim on cellphone, as we pay full price for it , but in north america the system seem differents :P

[Brad Adrian]

For what it's worth, this application has been available for a while now, and the Thoughts Team members have been debating whether or not to post about it. However, before long, it'll be common knowledge, so at least by posting it here we can have the responsible, informed discussion of the pros and cons that our readers deserve and want.

Besides, doesn't this require a serial (non-USB) cable?

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

ekkie, interestingly enough T-Mobile will hand you the unlock code without worries if you're about a month into the contract.
Yeah... I was on the SEM Users board a while back and heard the same thing! The rationale there being that you can still return the phone and cancel service after 30 days, so T-Mobile is only concerned about that initial period. After the 30 days are up, they treat it as YOUR phone which I certainly would appreciate. T-Mobile seems to be decisively more flexible with their service and policies than AT&T.

*Sigh* I wish I had gone through the trouble to learn all of these things before signing up with AT&T. Oh well...

[Paragon]

For what it's worth, this application has been available for a while now, and the Thoughts Team members have been debating whether or not to post about it. However, before long, it'll be common knowledge, so at least by posting it here we can have the responsible, informed discussion of the pros and cons that our readers deserve and want.


That is a very good point Brad.

Dave

[Mike Wagstaff]

I guess the question is, which would you consider more immoral... using this application, or the behavior of your service provider?

I have a feeling that a lot of xda-owning O2 UK customers might consider their consciences to be clear...

[Janak Parekh]

*Sigh* I wish I had gone through the trouble to learn all of these things before signing up with AT&T. Oh well...
Ah. AT&T. Yes, good luck. ;) They have a lot of people irate over it, but they haven't budged, yet.

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

*Sigh* I wish I had gone through the trouble to learn all of these things before signing up with AT&T. Oh well...
Ah. AT&T. Yes, good luck. ;) They have a lot of people irate over it, but they haven't budged, yet.
Geez... well, actually their policy of leaving phones locked during your 12-month contract is the LEAST of my complaints with them (double charged the cost of the phone and it took 3 months to resolve, voicemail getting suddenly re-routed to someone else's voicemail for 48 hours, hundreds of dollars of excess charges, etc.). I've had non-stop issues with them since signing up and their customer service can be EXTREMELY rude (and I'm talking about level 2 customer service reps!!).

To bring this back on topic, someone mentioned that they wouldn't have moral issues with unlocking phones if the customer was getting crappy service. Well...

[Brad Adrian]

I guess the question is, which would you consider more immoral... using this application, or the behavior of your service provider?
Well, if you want to think about it on a deep theological level, is it fair to base our own individual morality on the actions of another entity? Shouldn't it be the result of our own internal conscience?