I Hate To Say I Told You So... [Archive]

Ed Hansberry

01-13-2003, 05:00 PM

<a href="http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.asp?Symbol=US:PALM&Feed=PR&Date=20030113&ID=2228999">http://news.moneycentral.msn.com/ticker/article.asp?Symbol=US:PALM&Feed=PR&Date=20030113&ID=2228999</a> In my <a href="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/articles.php?id=5971">Which PDA is Simple Again</a> article, I talked about how much easier it is for a new person to input data on a Pocket PC rather than a Palm because the Pocket PC accepts a variety of normal letters for input, either with the QWERTY keyboard, Character Recognizer or full screen handwriting recognition via Transcriber whereas the Palm requires you to learn Graffiti. Well, remember Jot? It was the character based input system in the old Palm-sized PCs from Microsoft. Look for it in a Palm near you! "Communication Intelligence Corporation CICI ("CIC"), the leader in electronic signature, biometric verification and natural input solutions and PalmSource Inc., the Palm OS(R) subsidiary of Palm Inc. PALM and provider of the world's most popular operating system for handhelds and smart phones, announced today a licensing agreement for CIC's Jot(R) handwriting recognition software. Under this agreement, "Graffiti(R) 2 powered by Jot," will be embedded by PalmSource in current versions of its Palm OS platform provided to licensees of its operating system. The new Graffiti 2 handwriting software supports an intuitive, more natural form of input, minimizing learning time for new users and easing the transition for experienced users." More natural form of input, minimizing learning time, etc. Looks like Palm agrees with much of what I said. :D I predict Graffiti will be used strictly by Palm old timers in two years. The days of requiring the human to learn how to adapt to the computer for stylus input were over three years ago. Glad to see all the major players agree. I especially loved this quote: "Graffiti 2 is a superior handwriting recognition system that will enhance the ease of use that Palm OS is known for. We expect this technology to appeal to a wide range of users who will be able to easily take notes and write memos on their Palm Powered(TM) devices." When Pocket PC users were saying that in 2000, Palm users railed at the thought defending the "ease" and "zen" of Graffiti. Next thing you know, Palm will support multitasking. Oh, wait, they already say they will in OS6. :lol:

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

01-13-2003, 05:30 PM

jdhill

01-13-2003, 05:34 PM

ROFL !!!

Today: Jot
Tomorrow: Transcriber

Palm OS seems to becoming more and more like the Pocket PC OS every day and every way.

Maybe Sony should run the Pocket PC OS on that new brick with the short battery life !!! :twisted:

bikeman

01-13-2003, 05:38 PM

TrojanUO

01-13-2003, 05:51 PM

Was Jot ever in use with the PPC? Is it used to power character recognizer or transcriber? If not, I'm not sure this would carry any merit in the PPC vs Palm debate.

As a former Palm V user, I also remember Jot being available to the Palm as a downloadable alternate input method that never really took off. Of course Graffiti had the distinct advantage of being out-of-box.

Anyway, it will be interesting to the Palm community's reactions when they eventually start using this new handwriting recognition system.

The PocketPC has three input methods stored in ROM.

Block Recognizer
"With Block Recognizer you can input character strokes you may have learned using Grafitti(R) from Palm, Inc."

Keyboard

Letter Recognizer
"With Letter Recognizer you can input natural character strokes as well as strokes you may have learned using Jot(R) from CIC."

And then you can install Transcriber off the CD. (Some of the newer ones might have Transcriber in ROM, I'm not sure about that.)

Janak Parekh

01-13-2003, 06:03 PM

And then you can install Transcriber off the CD. (Some of the newer ones might have Transcriber in ROM, I'm not sure about that.)
Indeed, all the new Pocket PC 2002 units have Transcriber built-in.

Jot's been around the WinCE handhelds since before Pocket PC, actually. I remember learning Jot to help a client set up a Nino for the first time.

--janak

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

01-13-2003, 06:09 PM

The PocketPC has three input methods stored in ROM.

I actually knew that having been a PPC user for 2+ years, but wasn't aware if they were powered by Jot technology or not.

Apparently it does power the letter recognizer, which I felt was immediately superior to Graffiti the first time I used it on my EM500 (had been a Graffiti user the previous year).

GoldKey

01-13-2003, 06:10 PM

I like this quote from the brighthand article even better

"According to Marlene Somsak, Palm's VP of Communications, this will reduce the learning curve. "For new Palm users, Graffiti 2 powered by Jot is more intuitive and natural than Graffiti," Ms. Somsak told Brighthand."

Will T Smith

01-13-2003, 06:14 PM

If Jot was available but unpopular, I would suggest the following reason.

The Graffiti charactars are greatly simplified. Jot uses already familiar roman characters that are a bit more complicated and require more "right-angle" motions.

I would suggest that producing jot on a static input surface (one that doesn't "show" your strokes) is probably more difficult. Graffiti is probably easier on a surface without feedback since the penstrokes are more fluid.

Daniel

01-13-2003, 06:15 PM

One could argue (I don't have the energy though) that Palm and PPC are exchanging places in the market. PPCs are becoming more and more alike, almost like they were made by the same company (HTC perhaps?). Palm is innovating more and more with the hardware (Sony NZ/NX/NV), ok so maybe just Sony is. Seriously The Tungsten is an interesting design although I really don't understand why more Palms don't have virtual input.

Hopefully they're going forward and won't repeat some of the odd mistakes of the PPC platform.

Daniel

Janak Parekh

01-13-2003, 06:20 PM

If Jot was available but unpopular, I would suggest the following reason.
It's more likely that either (a) Palm devices didn't have the CPU power, early on, to run Jot; or (b) they didn't want to pay the licensing fee. I've used both Jot and Graffiti pretty extensively, and both could be easily used without feedback, although feedback is infinitely superior IMHO.

One could argue (I don't have the energy though) that Palm and PPC are exchanging places in the market.
I wouldn't make so broad a claim based on one model line from one vendor. Besides, the NZ isn't really pocketable in the first place. And to say the 5450 or the e740 haven't introduced original features (in integrating WiFi) is shortsighted. One Palm licensee has been original to date. What about the rest? (Note I'm avoiding the i-word, which I'm starting to detest).

--janak

heyday

01-13-2003, 06:21 PM

I guess I will always be a die hard Graphiti user... I only use Block on my PPC and I can write very fast...

heyday

Daniel

01-13-2003, 06:50 PM

One could argue (I don't have the energy though) that Palm and PPC are exchanging places in the market.
I wouldn't make so broad a claim based on one model line from one vendor.
Actually I wasn't, I also made reference to the Tungsten T. I don't really think that "One could argue" really constitutes a "broad claim". I was attempting to suggest that there may be a change afoot.

Besides, the NZ isn't really pocketable in the first place. And to say the 5450 or the e740 haven't introduced original features (in integrating WiFi) is shortsighted. One Palm licensee has been original to date. What about the rest? (Note I'm avoiding the i-word, which I'm starting to detest).

--janak
That the NZ/NX/NV devices aren't pocketable is irrelevant, I don't think that being original (I won't use the "i" word either then) necessitates maintaining the same properties as other devices. I also didn't say anything about wi-fi at all, you are putting words into my mouth (post?). For the record, wi-fi is not the be all and end all of inn.. originality.

If you want to make a comment about a broad statement then this:
One Palm licensee has been original to date. What about the rest?
would surely constitute one. Are you saying that Handspring wasn't original? Or the 7 series Palms or the other Palm phones? What about the Palm powered watch?

Perhaps the amount of originality that Palm licensees have in software is low would have been a more accurate statement on your part? Unless you are asserting that the advances mentioned above are not original?

Daniel

Scott R

01-13-2003, 06:51 PM

Interesting take on on this article. Brighthand has an article as well, http://www.brighthand.com/article/Graffiti_Dead They indicated that this is first a legal issue based on a lawsuit from Xerox against Grafitti. Of course, they do quote Palm as saying that this will be easier for new users to learn! :D
I believe that these are the two real reasons. I welcome more options for users, but as I said in the previous post EdH referenced, Graffiti has the advantage of being more efficient once a person has gone through the initial learning curve.

Scott

vincentsiaw

01-13-2003, 06:55 PM

the next thing we know is that palm os need a 32 MB of ROM space hahahhahaha

Ed Hansberry

01-13-2003, 07:15 PM

Janak Parekh

01-13-2003, 07:17 PM

Actually I wasn't, I also made reference to the Tungsten T. I don't really think that "One could argue" really constitutes a "broad claim". I was attempting to suggest that there may be a change afoot.
I would say that the one thing that's nice about the Tungsten is its one handed operation. I'm not a big fan of the slider, and the fact that it has audio problems is a big setback for it being a multimedia device.

Didn't mean to take your words out of context btw ;)

Are you saying that Handspring wasn't original? Or the 7 series Palms or the other Palm phones? What about the Palm powered watch?
I'm going to avoid digging a huge hole here and say most "new" handhelds haven't been original. As for Handspring, the Treos were an evolution of the existing smartphones (the Kyocera 6135, which evolved from the Qualcomm pdQ). I could turn around and say most modern Pocket PC's evolved from the Nino and the E10. In my opinion, most things are evolutionary. I'll admit that Sony's vision of where the PDA is going is something that hasn't been thought of very actively, but there was already research (Microsoft Portrait for one) going into making PDA's more image-oriented devices. Sony should be commended for their work on the NZ series, but it's not for me... yet. :)

My point is, it's too early to say that Palm and PPC have switched places. But let's not belabor the point too much in this thread. We already hacked it to bits in the Sony NZ-thread. :)

--janak

Janak Parekh

01-13-2003, 07:20 PM

For more efficiency, FITALY is clearly the best input method via stylus and the thumbboard seems to be the best short of a full sized plugin.
The real question is, for the average user, what's the most efficient with minimal amounts of learning. Fitaly/Graffiti do take more training. I think Jot's appeal is that any Joe can pick up the unit and become proficient without having to consult the chart more than once or twice. I remember using the Graffiti sticker back in the day :)

--janak

Ed Hansberry

01-13-2003, 07:33 PM

The real question is, for the average user, what's the most efficient with minimal amounts of learning. Fitaly/Graffiti do take more training. I think Jot's appeal is that any Joe can pick up the unit and become proficient without having to consult the chart more than once or twice.
Exactly!

This is why Pocket PCs on the stand at Best Buy have readable words in them and Palm's have gibberish. Anyone can go up to a Pocket PC and type or write their name and the word "testing" 50 times. No one can go up to a Palm and do the same.

scoopster

01-13-2003, 07:44 PM

but as I said in the previous post EdH referenced, Graffiti has the advantage of being more efficient once a person has gone through the initial learning curve.
Scott, not even Palm is clinging to that anymore. For more efficiency, FITALY is clearly the best input method via stylus and the thumbboard seems to be the best short of a full sized plugin.

Ed, please do clarify or elucidate on the evidence supporting FITALY as either "best" or "more efficient <than all others?>" I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but are you coming from experience or is there some testing results from an unbiased party that you can point me to?

Graffiti is dead. Handspring abandoned it and Palm finally just admitted it. I'd be shocked if 5% of new PDA owners that purchased a Palm once Jot is in ROM learned the old Graffiti method.

Graffitti is "dead" in the PalmOS world mostly due to a couple of things:
1) Legal fees are expensive, and apparently Xerox's licensing fees are too.
2) The Blackberry was a groundbreaking device that demonstrated the benefits and speed of thumb-based input vs. stylus-based input.

It's funny to see Palm's corporate/PR "spin" on this, pointing out how much better JOT will be than graffitti. Of course they can't say it's worse, and they'd rather not admit the to above 2 points.

Long live all the input options of the PocketPC....hopefully Xerox won't sue MS to put an end to Micrsoft's graffitti knockoff (aka Block Recognizer)....it's what lots of us Palm converts use and are comfortable and proficient with. Though I am looking forward to trying the thumbboard on the Hitachi/Sprint PPC-Phone....

Ed Hansberry

01-13-2003, 07:52 PM

but as I said in the previous post EdH referenced, Graffiti has the advantage of being more efficient once a person has gone through the initial learning curve.
Scott, not even Palm is clinging to that anymore. For more efficiency, FITALY is clearly the best input method via stylus and the thumbboard seems to be the best short of a full sized plugin.

Ed, please do clarify or elucidate on the evidence supporting FITALY as either "best" or "more efficient <than all others?>" I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but are you coming from experience or is there some testing results from an unbiased party that you can point me to?
Sure - check out Fitaly's web site at http://www.fitaly.com/domperignon/domperignon3.htm - I know they are biased towards Fitaly, but the competition was open and required a witness. I think the best evidence that the contest was fair was Fitaly came in 2nd after the Treo Thumbboard.

Graffiti is dead. Handspring abandoned it and Palm finally just admitted it. I'd be shocked if 5% of new PDA owners that purchased a Palm once Jot is in ROM learned the old Graffiti method.

Graffitti is "dead" in the PalmOS world mostly due to a couple of things:
1) Legal fees are expensive, and apparently Xerox's licensing fees are too.
2) The Blackberry was a groundbreaking device that demonstrated the benefits and speed of thumb-based input vs. stylus-based input.

It's funny to see Palm's corporate/PR "spin" on this, pointing out how much better JOT will be than graffitti. Of course they can't say it's worse, and they'd rather not admit the to above 2 points.

Long live all the input options of the PocketPC....hopefully Xerox won't sue MS to put an end to Micrsoft's graffitti knockoff (aka Block Recognizer)....it's what lots of us Palm converts use and are comfortable and proficient with. Though I am looking forward to trying the thumbboard on the Hitachi/Sprint PPC-Phone....
Spin is right. I am getting dizzy watching it. :lol: Don't worry about MS. They are covered. Not sure exactly how, but their legal department reviewed these issues before including it in Block Recognizer. Whether it means it is different enough not to matter or they are already paying Xerox a licensing fee, I've no clue.

Brad Adrian

01-13-2003, 08:24 PM

Today: Jot
Tomorrow: Transcriber
Day After Tomorrow: Calligrapher

Yes, the days of US adjusting to our computers are fading. Instead, our computers will be adjusting to US.

Brad Adrian

01-13-2003, 08:26 PM

I think you're right, Ed, about the speed of FITALY in the hands of an experienced user (even though I could never quite get the hang of it). After watching those videos, I don't think there's any way Transcriber/Calligrapher could ever keep up, even in the hands of the fastest user.

Still, my tired, old brain only lets me use tired, old input methods like QWERTY and handwriting.

Job

01-13-2003, 09:16 PM

I guess I will always be a die hard Graphiti user... I only use Block on my PPC and I can write very fast...

heyday

Yeah, I know that I have said this before, but I am sticking with Block. Those who are using (and defending) Transcriber, answer me this: can you input data easily and clearly w/o looking at the screen, i.e. while reading the information you are inputting from an outside source? This is a point that no one seems to have raised yet seems critical to the debate.

The Graffiti charactars are greatly simplified. Jot uses already familiar roman characters that are a bit more complicated and require more "right-angle" motions.

Again, the relatively short, fluid strokes of Graphitti enhance the speed and efficiency of data input. That is why, whenever using Transcriber, I tend to prefer writing rather than printing.

Finally, for self-proclaimed "techies," (which, I assume, requires some degree of intelligence), you sure raise a fuss about learning a few new characters. Honestly, I was familiar enough with the strokes within one day to input data quickly and accurately. Additionally, the provided sticker smoothed any rough spots I happened to encounter. To be clear, I am not including thumboards, FITALY, or any other non-native data input methods. This is strictly a provided input methods only response.

01-13-2003, 09:51 PM

I have both jot and graffiti on my Palm Vx and I must say I prefer Graffiti much much more.

I will try Jot everynow and again and then disable it and go back to the old faithful. The only useful thing I can find about Jot is that on the Palm you can set it up to allow writing on the main part of the screen using Graffiti rather than Jot characters.

The learning time for Graffiti is about 20 minutes for anyone with half a brain (obviously about 10 minutes for PPCT readers).

Graffiti is fast because all the characters (apart from the X) are done in one stroke. I can write with Graffiti much faster than I can tap with the virtual keyboard.

I've not yet use the Block jobbie on the PPC, is it exactly the same as Graffiti? If it is, another good reason to go with a PPC.

malcolmsharp

01-13-2003, 10:14 PM

I've not yet use the Block jobbie on the PPC, is it exactly the same as Graffiti? If it is, another good reason to go with a PPC.

That will be interesting...

"Palm users... not using your years build Graphitti skills anymore? Miss your fav PDA writting method? Come over and buy a Pocket PC... WE STILL HAVE IT! It's there, like an old friend, or a worn in pair of shoes."

TypeMRT

01-13-2003, 10:25 PM

Graffitti is "dead" in the PalmOS world mostly due to a couple of things:
1) Legal fees are expensive, and apparently Xerox's licensing fees are too.
2) The Blackberry was a groundbreaking device that demonstrated the benefits and speed of thumb-based input vs. stylus-based input.

It's funny to see Palm's corporate/PR "spin" on this, pointing out how much better JOT will be than graffitti. Of course they can't say it's worse, and they'd rather not admit the to above 2 points.

Long live all the input options of the PocketPC....hopefully Xerox won't sue MS to put an end to Micrsoft's graffitti knockoff (aka Block Recognizer)....it's what lots of us Palm converts use and are comfortable and proficient with. Though I am looking forward to trying the thumbboard on the Hitachi/Sprint PPC-Phone....

Regarding the 2nd point: I bet RIM's licensing fees/court costs aren't exactly cheap either, as Handspring et al have found out.

Janak Parekh

01-13-2003, 10:28 PM

Finally, for self-proclaimed "techies," (which, I assume, requires some degree of intelligence), you sure raise a fuss about learning a few new characters.
First off, it did take me more than 20 minutes to memorize all of the esoteric punctuation strokes; I assigned the upstroke on my Palm to the guide and had to leave it that way for a week or two until I stopped consulting it. Maybe I'm just slow ;)

Second, you'll note that we're primarily talking about the appeal of Jot to new people who have just picked up a handheld. I have both customers and family members who've tried Graffiti and gave it up because they don't have the patience to learn.

--janak

Jason Dunn

01-13-2003, 10:30 PM

Ed, please do clarify or elucidate on the evidence supporting FITALY as either "best" or "more efficient <than all others?>" I'm not necessarily disagreeing, but are you coming from experience or is there some testing results from an unbiased party that you can point me to?

I think Ed was pointing out that Fitaly allows for massive speed of input compared to almost any other input method - look on our front page and watch the videos to learn more.

...hopefully Xerox won't sue MS to put an end to Micrsoft's graffitti knockoff (aka Block Recognizer)...

Xerox won't sue Microsoft, and it's not a knockoff- it's a fully-licensed version of the Xerox techonolgy. Microsoft did what Palm SHOULD have done years ago: licensed the technology they were using instead of stealing it. I think Microsoft has learned it's lessen about stealing technology after being sued so many times for doing it. :roll: :lol:

Jonathon Watkins

01-13-2003, 11:05 PM

I think Microsoft has learned it's lessen about stealing technology after being sued so many times for doing it. :roll: :lol:

They may be slow - but they get there in the end. :wink: (Usually verion 3 :lol: )

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

01-14-2003, 12:36 AM

I have both jot and graffiti on my Palm Vx and I must say I prefer Graffiti much much more.
I had mentioned in my initial post how Jot didn't really take off on the Palm as a separate input alternative.

I can say for sure that in my days using the Palm V, I tried jot and didn't like it, but the moment I started using the PocketPC, I immediately favored the letter recognizer over graffiti. So assuming that the letter recognizer is using jot technology, there's definitely a significant difference in how it's been implemented on the two platforms. As conjectured earlier, it may have something to do with the limited processing power of the older palms (dragonball)... maybe not...

Ed Hansberry

01-14-2003, 12:43 AM

I have both jot and graffiti on my Palm Vx and I must say I prefer Graffiti much much more.
I had mentioned in my initial post how Jot didn't really take off on the Palm as a separate input alternative.

Alternate input methods are probably one of the lower sellers in terms of what people install. Anecdotal evidence, but I know TONS of people with apps like Pocket Nav or Pocket Informant, but very few with Fitaly or Calligrapher.

Daniel

01-14-2003, 12:56 AM

I think Microsoft has learned it's lessen about stealing technology after being sued so many times for doing it. :roll: :lol:
Let's wait for the Sendo case to finish on that one hey? ;)

Daniel

Foo Fighter

01-14-2003, 03:08 AM

If this means outright death to Graffiti on PalmOS devices, I think this will seriously hurt the Palm platform as a whole. It will force end users into learning a new way of character entry, and give many "upgraders" reason to pause....perhaps even reevaluate their choice in platform. One of the advantages of Palm has been its brain-dead simple character recognition. You learn to write a few characters a certain way, and the results are fairly error free. Anyone can do it. Now PalmSource is replacing this tried and true veteran with a real character recognition system...which it has eschewed for years. The result: DISASTER! There are legions of Palm devotees out there that WILL NOT like this. I've tried JOT in the past myself, and I never liked it. Just wait till the first purchasers of these JOT enabled devices scribbles out the words..."Remember to pick up kids from school" and gets "Rembrutnt ot plxk klidz form skhool". That will be the day the music died.

harheharhar

01-14-2003, 03:23 AM

Ah yes....here we have it again:

1) Palm is forced to adopt a new input system due to the Xerox suit;

2) Palm, knowing they're choosing a lesser of two evils, tells it's marketing department to spin that Jot is superior (maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Point is that it doesn't matter, that's not why they made the switch);

3) Hansberry, known for spreading FUD about Palm (and I'm sure frequently accusing their marketing department of "spinning"), actually has the nerve to ignore what's really going on and state that the reason Palm has switched input methods is because they're out to be more like PPC. Remember, he "told us so"!

Ed Hansberry

01-14-2003, 04:14 AM

Janak Parekh

01-14-2003, 04:20 AM

Crushing. They will have to write with normal letters! Gasp! :wink: :lol:
You laugh, but it's going to be very, very ingrained in their head. I remember my last days as a Palm user... as soon as you pick up the Palm you start Graffiti-ing without thinking twice. Sometimes, unlearning something is harder than learning it. :D

--janak

Ekkie Tepsupornchai

01-14-2003, 09:54 AM

I've tried JOT in the past myself, and I never liked it.
OK. Now I'm confused. Is JOT and the PPC Letter Recognizer using the same technology? (I didn't like JOT on the Palm but I strongly preferred the letter recognizer on the PPC.)

So is the JOT that was available to the Palm previously the same JOT that would be integrated with future Palms? If so, then I hope the ARM processors will somehow make it more pleasing experience.

Either way, there will be complaints, but if the JOT remains the same, the Palm will become an even less friendly device to input into.

Ed Hansberry

01-14-2003, 02:47 PM

3) Hansberry, known for spreading FUD about Palm (and I'm sure frequently accusing their marketing department of "spinning"), actually has the nerve to ignore what's really going on and state that the reason Palm has switched input methods is because they're out to be more like PPC. Remember, he "told us so"!
Well, Palm's press release said:
The new Graffiti 2 handwriting software supports an intuitive, more natural form of input, minimizing learning time for new users and easing the transition for experienced users.
and
Graffiti 2 is a superior handwriting recognition system that will enhance the ease of use that Palm OS is known for. We expect this technology to appeal to a wide range of users who will be able to easily take notes and write memos on their Palm Powered(TM) devices.
and their VP of Communications told Brighthand
For new Palm users, Graffiti 2 powered by Jot is more intuitive and natural than Graffiti.
Not seeing anything about Xerox in there. So who's spinning? :wink:

Scott R

01-14-2003, 03:41 PM

Yes, indeed, EdH sure likes to get a rise out of people. Again, more options is a good thing. If they remove the old Graffiti altogether (which they very well might, due to the Xerox suit), it could be a bad thing. I say "could be" because there are currently 3rd party (even freeware) apps which allow you to use Graffiti anywhere on the screen. So unless Xerox goes after these companies, there will hopefully still be the Graffiti option for people.

I've stated the benefits of Graffiti innumerable times and I'm sure EdH knows them all to well, but I'll state them again here. There are a variety of input methods, each with various pros and cons. Let's look at a few options. I'll rate different aspects with scores of 1-4 (higher = better). I'm quickly making some guesstimates as to the actual scores. Feel free to disagree.

1) Graffiti
Learning curve: 2.5
Speed/accuracy (once learned): 3
Ease of making corrections: 4

2) Xerox Unistrokes
Learning curve: 1
Speed/accuracy (once learned): 3
Ease of making corrections: 4

2) Jot
Learning curve: 4
Speed/accuracy (once learned): 2
Ease of making corrections: 4

4) Transcriber
Learning curve: 3.5 (the alphabet is easy, but there are special methods for writing other characters and formatting)
Speed/accuracy (once learned): 2-3 (depends on your handwriting as well as what it is you're trying to write)
Ease of making corrections: 1

5) FITALY
Learning curve: 2.5 (easy in the sense that the characters are all there exactly as you know them, but it takes a while to remember where they're all positioned)
Speed/accuracy (once learned): 4
Ease of making corrections: 4

I'll add that another strength of Graffiti is its "heads up" ability. You can jot notes down with a low frequency of typos without even looking at the screen. Or, you can look at where the resulting text will go. This allows you to immediately detect typos and correct them, concentrate on formatting, etc. With something like FITALY, your eyes are fixed on the FITALY panel and you have to move your eyes up and down between the FITALY panel and where the resulting text is going to notice typos, etc.

I'm not trying to make the case that Graffiti is the best thing ever (though for short-length notes, I feel that it's the best option for me), I'm simply trying to demonstrate that Graffiti has actual positive traits. While the original implementation may very well have been done because the original Palm lacked the horsepower to do "real" character recognition, the end result was an input method which, while requiring a short learning curve, results in faster data entry than a method which requires you to write out characters using the "real" character set.

Scott

Ed Hansberry

01-14-2003, 04:46 PM

If they remove the old Graffiti altogether (which they very well might, due to the Xerox suit), it could be a bad thing.
I agree with that. That would be humorous in fact. "Want Graffiti? Get a Pocket PC!" ;)

I've not seen anything out of Palm that indicates they are removing the old, I just assumed they were adding Graffiti 2 (Jot) to the mix. Have you heard anything different?

On your ratings, the only thing I would disagree with is your speed once learned. At worst, Jot is .5 behind Graffiti and I'd say it was so close as to not matter. Graffiti wasn't built for speed, it was built so the computer wouldn't have to use much processing to recognize the keystroke.

And Fitaly's speed is not 4 once learned. Definitely a 5. :D

Janak Parekh

01-14-2003, 05:12 PM

If they remove the old Graffiti altogether (which they very well might, due to the Xerox suit), it could be a bad thing.
I agree with that. That would be humorous in fact. "Want Graffiti? Get a Pocket PC!" ;)
In fact, there are people on the Brighthand forums saying exactly that. People are very passionate about their stylus-based input languages. FWIW, before I knew I could do Graffiti with Pocket PC 2000 I learned the Character Recognizer. It's not nearly as slow as people would think. You do get used to it, and it does work pretty well. The three "zones" is a huge timesaver, because you don't need an upstroke for caps.

--janak

Scott R

01-14-2003, 08:17 PM

FWIW, before I knew I could do Graffiti with Pocket PC 2000 I learned the Character Recognizer. It's not nearly as slow as people would think. You do get used to it, and it does work pretty well. The three "zones" is a huge timesaver, because you don't need an upstroke for caps.

To each his own. I really dislike the separate boxes for upper and lower case. It results in the boxes being too small which also has a big impact on the "heads up" ability. The other issue with the "Graffiti clone" in PPC 2000 is that it doesn't recognize a lot of the letters the same way. I've started using my iPaq a lot more (primarily for PocketBible and taking notes at our church services) and have resorted to using the virtual keyboard (ugh!). I can't justify spending the money on the PPC 2002 upgrade, though, because my iPaq is so full of dust and I'd rather spend $150 on a refurbished PPC (or a bit more for an Axim) rather than shell out $30-40 for the PPC 2002 upgrade. I'm on the fence about it. I think I'll wait till the next PPC OS comes out to make sure I get something that can utilize it.

Scott

rave

01-15-2003, 02:31 AM

OK. Now I'm confused. Is JOT and the PPC Letter Recognizer using the same technology? (I didn't like JOT on the Palm but I strongly preferred the letter recognizer on the PPC.)
Maybe it's because in PPC, you get visual feedback when you write, unlike the traditional Palm devices. I think the visual feedback is essential when the handwriting system has an option for you to dot your I's and cross your T's.

As for my preferences, I use Transcriber to jot down meeting notes, Letter Recognizer for all other text entry tasks, and the touch keyboard for system administration like messing with the registry and renaming files. I never use the Block Recognizer, since I find it more difficult, especially with capital letters and punctuation. Note that this hasn't any scientific basis, but instead are personal preferences based on personal experience. I don't mind dotting my I's crossing my T's. It's natural to me, and I don't mind the 500-millisecond delay. ;)

I think Palm should offer the users a choice between Graffiti 1 and 2. But from what I've been reading here, it looks like such will not be the case.