Sony Unveils $800 Wireless, Multimedia CLIE NZ90 Handheld

[Jason Dunn]

<div class='os_post_top_link'><a href='http://www.brighthand.com/article/Clie_NZ90' target='_blank'>http://www.brighthand.com/article/Clie_NZ90</a><br /><br /></div>Wow. 8O This can only be called a smackdown to those of us in the Pocket PC camp. I have to hand it to Sony, they know how to put the "pizazz" in "PDA". At $800, this isn't cheap, but talk about features to make me drool...why isn't there a Pocket PC OEM with this much <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chutzpah">chutzpah</a>? More analysis tomorrow - I wanted to get this up ASAP.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/web/clie_nz90.jpg" /><br /><br />"Almost daring onlookers to characterize it as a mere digital organizer, the CLIE PEG-NZ90 handheld model is Sony's latest flagship entertainment device that seemingly does it all. The newest addition to the family of CLIE handhelds continues the Sony tradition of creating new product categories. Its effective two-megapixel digital camera features built-in flash and auto-focus capabilities, helping to ensure that candid moments will be captured in bright, vivid and clear resolution. Additionally, the CLIE NZ90 model features a Wi-Fi (802.11b) communications slot and integrated Bluetooth wireless connectivity options."

[Rirath]

Smackdown? While it certainly looks nice... it also looks more like a toy to me. I find it hard to imagine getting any serious work done on one of these. It looks much more for entertainment than work.

The mini keyboard? Give me on-screen. The digital camera? I've got one, and mine actually looks like a camera. (Yes, that's still important to me over slim size.) The price? 3x that of my Dell.

[Janak Parekh]

It's also worth noting that this unit is reported as being "noticeably thicker".

While the 2MP camera is really nice, this unit is stretching the notion of pocketable far more than an iPaq with a sleeve. :)

Still, it's nice to see someone pushing the PalmOS edge. Now, if there were standardized API's for the HiRes+/Soft Graffiti, Sony's multimedia, etc., they'd be getting somewhere.

--janak

[GadgetDave]

Wow is right. $950 with the wifi card - hmmmm... or I can get a decent laptop and real good camera for about $1400 ... not amused.

The funny part to me was this section:
And for the first time on any CLIE handheld, the CLIE NZ90 model features a removable Lithium-Ion rechargeable battery pack. Each PEGA-BP500 SmartLITHIUM battery can operate the CLIE NZ90 model for approximately 10 days depending on conditions, based on average use (30 minutes per day with backlight off). The battery also indicates remaining battery life in minutes.
Hmmm ... 30 minutes per day with no backlight? Or 5 hours in one stretch? Wonder what it's like when you use the backlight and take some pictures (flash??) ...

[Janak Parekh]

Hmmm ... 30 minutes per day with no backlight? Or 5 hours in one stretch? Wonder what it's like when you use the backlight and take some pictures (flash??) ...
That's why the battery is removable... you'll have to bring a pack of batteries along with you. ;)

Seriously, 5 hours without backlight on a transflective display is quite unacceptable. Means you'll get 2-3 hours practical use. That's more like 1 day of typical use in my case. Actually less than 1--I use my Pocket PC for many hours, listening to music, on occasion.

Oh yeah, speaking of music, you'd have to deal with the Memory Stick... argh, Sony's products are cool, but there's always annoying limitations.

--janak

[Jason Dunn]

Oh come on guys, give Sony credit where it's due - they're giving their users a 2MP camera with a flash, while we're sitting here still waiting for Pretec to deliver a 1.3MP camera without a flash. If the lens is decent, you could take some decent pictures with a 2MP camera!

I know we're mostly Pocket PC fans here, but give Sony some credit for pushing the envelope!

[Rirath]

I'll give credit when I see something worth giving it to. For that price, I've seen digital cameras that would make that look like a plaything.

[Janak Parekh]

Oh come on guys, give Sony credit where it's due - they're giving their users a 2MP camera with a flash, while we're sitting here still waiting for Pretec to deliver a 1.3MP camera without a flash. If the lens is decent, you could take some decent pictures with a 2MP camera!
I don't know about you, but I gave up on Pretec a long time ago, and bought a Casio Exilim (www.casio.com/exilim). That, with an iPaq, is a better choice IMHO. I'm very happy with the setup. The two combined is less thick than this thing.

I know we're mostly Pocket PC fans here, but give Sony some credit for pushing the envelope!
Oh, I do. I just think this is a first-generation attempt at serious merging between different consumer markets, and as such it lacks. :)

(C'mon, Jason, you expected us to give any slack? :D)

--janak

[GadgetDave]

Oh come on guys, give Sony credit where it's due - they're giving their users a 2MP camera with a flash, while we're sitting here still waiting for Pretec to deliver a 1.3MP camera without a flash. If the lens is decent, you could take some decent pictures with a 2MP camera!

I know we're mostly Pocket PC fans here, but give Sony some credit for pushing the envelope!
Sure they're pushing the envelope, but didnt' we have a discussion here a few weeks ago about "Sony" and "propriteary"?
I'm not a big fan of one device yet. Cool, but I use the PPC a lot while at work, when I don't need all that stuff. I'll stick with seperate, but better quality, devices for now (that camera can't be great) ... And my 2MP Elph does a great job, and isn't that big to carry around ... :wink:

Oh, and mine is on about 4-5 hours per day ... easily ...

[GadgetDave]

Actually less than 1--I use my Pocket PC for many hours, listening to music, on occasion.

Good point, and I didn't see anything about a music player at all! 8O

[Paul P]

The mini keyboard? Give me on-screen. The digital camera? I've got one, and mine actually looks like a camera. (Yes, that's still important to me over slim size.) The price? 3x that of my Dell.

Sony is not just selling a digital camera. Sony is aware of the fact that you can purchase a F717 for almost the same price as the Clie. 3x, 4x, or 10x the price of anything you have is irrelevant here.

[IpaqMan2]

Holy Cow.... I can't belive the comments here...

It's big, it's expensive, it looks like a toy.. Does anyone remember the 3650 Ipaq with it's HUGE and HEAVY Sleeve? How about the older devices with the CE software? And Pricing.. Please.. 2-3 years ago it was still very common to spend 700 bucks and more on a PPC. You guys are sounding like the Palm people did back than whining and complaning when they new their PDAs really did SUCK in compareds to the PPC. What's up with that?

I commend Sony for having the "Vision" that goes beyond the mold and break new grounds. I only wish somebody in the PPC OEM camp would try and do something half as cool as this. Besides... PPC people wanna have fun too.
(HINT HINT OEMS, DUH)

[crispeto]

I think it's a great device except for a couple of things.

1. It's still going to have the palm os - kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth
2. $800 - Are they nuts? I recently got an HP 2meg cam for $80, an Axim for $175, and a wireless card for $45. To top it off, I also got an HP notebook Athlon XP 1500+, DVD, 32 Radeon card for $599. These were all brand new. So my total price for a digital camera, handheld, wireless card an a notebook is $899. I know these are exceptional values but $800 for one handheld? YIKES!!!

[Janak Parekh]

Good point, and I didn't see anything about a music player at all! 8O
I'm sure the same features from the NX70V are there.

Sony is not just selling a digital camera. Sony is aware of the fact that you can purchase a F717 for almost the same price as the Clie. 3x, 4x, or 10x the price of anything you have is irrelevant here.
Well, it's also a new-unit price, so I'm less worried about that as well. I don't say it's "irrelevant"... but it's probably overblown.

It's big, it's expensive, it looks like a toy.. Does anyone remember the 3650 Ipaq with it's HUGE and HEAVY Sleeve? How about the older devices with the CE software? And Pricing.. Please.. 2-3 years ago it was still very common to spend 700 bucks and more on a PPC. You guys are sounding like the Palm people did back than whining and complaning when they new their PDAs really did SUCK in compareds to the PPC. What's up with that?
Dunno, I think you're comparing apples and oranges here. I'm not complaining about the pricing, but the lack of a file system, or Memory Stick, or proprietary multimedia API? These are essential problems for me. Sony's moving more and more into the "entertainment field", while I want a handheld-sized computer with integrated wireless. I agree, I'd like to see some more cutting-edge innovation, and Sony is pretty good on that note, but the practicality of a unit that lasts 2-3 hours a day is also in question.

Also, for all of you accusing Pocket PC users of "changing" on price: there are multiple crowds here, you know... not only are the early adopters here, but those for whom budget matters. Both Palm and Pocket PC camps evolve. :)

I agree, though, that if OEM's here don't continue to innovate and improve, they'll get left behind when a Palm OS 6-based next-gen device comes out. I'm sure they're all watching each other, though.

--janak

[Mr. Anonymous]

My own personal rule is that any PDA with a build in tripod is too freaking big!

I'm just waiting for the inevitable Clie/Aibo fusion device. 2 mp camera and walks around the house!

[mar2k]

I wonder if there would be some different opinions if the CF slot was completely normal and could be used for memory? Just a thought....

[portus]

A device like this that has a decent 2 mega-pixel camera with a flash AND built-in Wi-Fi AND Bluetooth in that form factor is no doubt some accomplishment. I always think os SONY as being on PAR with Apple on the innovation front. SONY does a good job adding what is indispensable for a built-in camera - flash to this model which makes it a real multi-functional device. The new Samsung and Hitachi Pocket PC phones are tempting but the built-in cameras will be fancy but useless add-ons without a built-in flash.

[Paul P]

Hey, at least one problem seems to be solved....well, half-so if you still don't like the format :) :

http://www.sonystyle.com/intershoproot/eCS/Store/en/imagesProducts/80x80/MSX1G.jpg

MSX-256
MSX-512
MSX-1G

From sonystyle.com. No information on the pricing or compatibility with the old sony memory stick products yet. Perhaps the NX90 is the first (but hopefully not the only) device to take advantage of the new format.

[SJ]

My own personal rule is that any PDA with a build in tripod is too freaking big!

I'm just waiting for the inevitable Clie/Aibo fusion device. 2 mp camera and walks around the house!

LOL, not to mention that it costs $3500 :lol:

Seriously, I'm glad that Sony is willing to test the water with the offering. $800 is pretty close to the price of iPAQ 5450. I'm sure we'll be singing a different tune if HP is offering the same product.

I'll definitely get one if the price is around $600..........and it's PocketPC :wink:

[tj21]

Palminfocenter (http://www.palminfocenter.com/view_story.asp?ID=4833) has some more details and actual pictures of the unit.

It's definitely a very thick pda, much thicker than even their NX-70. I can't really see carrying anything that large but it is impressive how much stuff they've packed in to it. $800 would be very hard to justify though. I do love the idea of integrated TV/video outputs on the cradle as well as printer connectivity. Integrated Bluetooth was way overdue. FWIW Sony generally under rates their battery life so I'd guess it's better than you might think.

I'm not buying one but it is exciting to see Sony push the envelope. Hopefully they'll inspire some of the Pocket PC OEM's to try some more alternative designs.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

I don't know. I'm a Palm user, and frankly I don't see anything compelling with this one...

Just an overpriced toy...

[spursdude]

My complaints:
-awful battery life as described at Brighthand and by Janak

-big size...I thought the NX and NR series were already too big...

-Palm OS...especially the lack of file system. A device like this really ought to (IMHO) have a file system, especially if one is going to be dealing with a lot of photos, music, and documents.

-price. No PDA should cost $800 list price, or $950 to get it with WiFi. And this isn't my anti-Palm bias, either. If it helps, I hate the price of the latest and greatest iPaqs. But that's a different matter... Of course, I'm no "gotta-be-first" type of guy in technology, and I always look for bargains. (thus my $300 Maestro). Still, $950 could buy you a solid desktop or laptop, or even a Dell Axim at $300, a WiFi card for $50, and 2 GB of storage in CF cards (4 512MB cards @ $150 each).

Now my praises:
-Digital camera. A 2MP camera with auto-focus and flash is just sweet. Granted, you can probably get a great camera apart from it for better quality and less price, but being integrated is just so convenient (provided that Sony compensates well on the software side of things).

-Screen. Ok, yeah, transflective at 320x480. awesome Blows my Audiovox Maestro away.

-Integrated bluetooth is good, although I wouldn't use it, and it's already in other devices.

To sum up, I see this device as a great idea in general, with lotsa cool features - but at too high of a price and too bulky and too cumbersome. (and don't compare my arguments against the iPaqs...I think they're big and expensive :D )

[Rirath]

It's big, it's expensive, it looks like a toy.. Does anyone remember the 3650 Ipaq with it's HUGE and HEAVY Sleeve? How about the older devices with the CE software? And Pricing.. Please.. 2-3 years ago it was still very common to spend 700 bucks and more on a PPC. You guys are sounding like the Palm people did back than whining and complaning when they new their PDAs really did SUCK in compareds to the PPC. What's up with that?

Actually, no... I don't. I'm more of a desktop guy myself, PPC's are just an interest of mine. I didn't pay $700 for an Ipaq and I'm not paying $800 for this. What's up with it is personally I find this device to be incredibly sweet looking, but ultimately for someone with a big wallet and more concern for cutting edge than quality. I'm missing how anyone could think this thing has modern day PPC's beat. Just because it's a camera and a PDA doesn't mean it's good at either one.

[Stuart]

At the risk of going against the flow, a couple of the Clies released last year are the first palm devices I've seen that come close to the Pocket PCs in both form factor and features, including multimedia capability. But that price... 8O

That said, I'll still take my Tosh with built-in wireless and non-proprietary memory slots.

[Eos]

Common guys, Sony's worth some Wow's here.

And I also agree that this will probably push the PPC manufacturers to respond. Not that we know of anything new, but there's a new CeBit soon in Hannover, Germany....

I confess that I was considering, several times, buying a Clie. First time at CeBit after seeing the NV-70, second time at Comdex02, after checking the NX-70. I ended up (as expected) with a new (and PERFECT) 5450..

I paid for it ~700 US$, and never looked back. Why, because I am used to PPCs and have never (though tried) liked the Palm environment. But, would Sony come out with a, say, new NPPC-100..:-), I would say Go Sony, Go !!!

[dean_shan]

Holy Cow this this is way to expensive :shocked!: ! You can get a notebook for the price of this when you buy the wifi card. $950 is way too much for a palm handheld. And I thoght Palm's Tungsten was overpriced for what you get. I'll give up the built in camera and that little thumb board for a PocketPC that is a couple hundred less and can do more :D . $800! Who in their right mind is going to buy that.

[szamot]

1. Suddenly this thing makes the AXIM brick parody look rather thin?!
2. It is Sony, I already don't like it because in a month they will "invent" something new.
3. I bet if you could listen to music streaming off the wireless and took a picture that battery would be gone in a "flash" - no pun intended
4. NEXT...

…and before you start flaming me, I have no less then 6 Palms, each better than the other, as far as I am concerned the only 2 good Palms were Palm Pro and Vx – personally speaking of course. So, been there, done that, made a movie of the week, bought the t-shirt, showed them in the drawer.

No file system, that’s like going to Mars but not bringing lunch, ‘nuf said.
Battery life? That’s like driving a coast to coast race in a Ferrari, 1st gear only with a 1 gallon gas tank ‘nuf said.

Thank you Sony for inventing hardware misery yet again.

[Shaun Stuart]

I am sorry but a lot of you sound like the blinkered palm users of 2 years - when the pocket pc was released.

What did they say about the pocket pc

To big ?
To expensive ?
What do you need all those functions for ?

I think your missing the point.

What would palm users have today if the pocket pc had never been released ? nothing like this sony offering thats for sure.

Competition is good.

Whay this says to me is that in a year ot two we should expect pocket pcs with better than 2mp cameras integrated tv tuners, gps, gprs, wifi, bluetooth. (all in the form factor of a ipaq 1910 - me hopes).

I understand the price issue but the experencied users among us would not necessarily dive in and buy one of these - novices however, walking in to buy the best pda they can get would certainly be interested. If they dont purchase this the very least that will happen is that they will know the potential the palm os can give them, and that may make them look at the os in more detail.

just my 2 cents (an ipaq user)

[FredMurphy]

Sometimes you guys just whine too much!

I think this is a very interesting device. More manufacturers pushing the limits with design is the way we end up with more choice. Size, weight and price eventually get pared down after a while, or features creep over to smaller and cheaper devices one at a time.

It is a shame that Sony are sticking with Palm - I'd really like to see what they could do with a Pocket PC. However, more manufacturers are starting to produce PPCs. Lets hope that sooner or later one of them will be as innovative as this.

Fred

[Rirath]

When, exactly, did "whine" become the word of the day? Just a few weeks back I got my head bit off for mentioning it half heartedly in a sentence. Now it's as overused as "brick". (No, I steak no claim in this. I think it was Jason mentioning the word at the start of the contests that sparked the wanna-be's.)

[ECOslin]

Looks simular to my $20 Vtech Phusion, http://www.myphusion.com/
'Cept camera is 256 or so shades of gray, OS is proprietary.

Might be difficult to use the touchscreen on the Sony.

Edward

[hollis_f]

-Digital camera. A 2MP camera with auto-focus and flash is just sweet. Granted, you can probably get a great camera apart from it for better quality and less price, but being integrated is just so convenient Convenient! Having to drag around a camera all day, when all I want to carry is my PDA! How is that convinient.

I really can't understnad this desite to integrate for integration's sake. Things like integrated MP3 makes sense ona device that already has the processor and sound output. Integrated video makes sense on a device that already has the display hardware and a processor.

But adding bulky extras like cameras, GPSs, euphoniums, etc. that would be better as a seperate box just seems stupid to me.

[Timothy Rapson]

Whay this says to me is that in a year ot two we should expect pocket pcs with better than 2mp cameras integrated tv tuners, gps, gprs, wifi, bluetooth. (all in the form factor of a ipaq 1910 - me hopes).
just my 2 cents (an ipaq user)

I agree with Shaun.

This model is NOT what I was really hoping to see from Sony about now. What I expected and would have wanted is one the size of ViewSonic V35 or smaller with all the features of the current NX. Guess Sony decided to go for the $gold$ instead.

My take as a NR70V owner who finds the current feature set almost perfect:

1. Battery life should be better. On both NR and NX series. Removable may be a way to add bigger battery as well as multiple batteries, but that would make it even bigger (as in Axim)

2. The price is unfanthomable.

3. The size and weight of NR/NX were already marginal. This is almost certainly too big for most.

4. The file system is not going to cut it unless the new Picsel technology really does what it promises for files both on the Clie and on the memory stick.

5. They didn't build in the WiFi for $800? They expect you to pay another $150 for it, when they could have included in for $40? And no standard drivers for CF cards to go in that slot if you don't want the WiFi? Dumb. Just dumb.

6. I like the flash, but if they don't have real optical zoom and a way to add lenses, it is still not a real camera. I love having a neat little camera handy right in my Clie all the time, but it is what it is. It is OK for web pictures, but that is all. Unless it has 4 megapixels, flash, optical zoom, and full speed video capture with sound, it won't replace a real camera. As long as it doesn't the features of the NR/NX were fine.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

I am sorry but a lot of you sound like the blinkered palm users of 2 years - when the pocket pc was released.

What did they say about the pocket pc

To big ?
To expensive ?
What do you need all those functions for ?

I think your missing the point.

What would palm users have today if the pocket pc had never been released ? nothing like this sony offering thats for sure.

A couple of issues:

1. Pocket PC's started out big and bulky, but at the time all handhelds were big and bulky. They're shrinking down to a much more acceptable size, so it's not really the same thing. Sony had the NR-70, the NX 70, and now this monstrosity, and they're not getting smaller, they're not getting sleeker, and they're not getting more affordable.

2. Too expensive... $800 for any handheld is too expensive, and to have to add more money for WiFi connectivity is just silly. Especially considering that huge bulge on the back of the unit is useless for anything but their own WiFi card.

3. There is not one compelling feature in this new package, so as far as features go, you could get a $500 Tungsten T or a $400 Dell Axim and be every bit as happy.

I think Sony has lost their minds releasing this thing, and it'll probably tank. Hard. And as for the "where would Palm users be today if the Pocket PC had never been released" question, it would probably be more appropriate to ask a slightly different question:

"Would Pocket PC's, in the current form, exist were Palm handhelds not created?"

Just something to think about from an Audiovox Maestro/Tungsten T user.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Wow. There are some pretty harsh opinions here.

I can say from a personal standpoint that the price is outside what I'm willing to spend and I'm personally not shopping for a PDA/DigiCam combo and I HATE Sony MemorySticks.

That being said, this unit is pretty impressive. You can print up some pretty clear 4x5 pics at 2MP and the flash capabilities help ensure that your indoor pics won't be trash. Sony has really improved in leaps-and-bounds with their digital cameras so I wouldn't be surprised if this unit is capable of some high quality shots. Love the screen resolution... backlit reflective 320x480... I REALLY hope future PPCs push to this level soon...

[welmoed]

My first take was that the design is so unfriendly. The keyboard is so far removed from the screen that a user would be constantly looking up-down-up-down-up-down and get a pretty nasty eyestrain. Now, if you could touchtype on it that would be different but I don't see being able to TT on a little itty bitty board like that.

And I also agree with prior posters that it's too damned expensive. Of course, there will be people with deep pockets who will buy it for the gee-whiz factor and eventually the price will come down. Still, I don't see the sense of units that integrate every function under the sun into one package. When technology of one element improves, you would have to replace the entire thing to upgrade rather than just replace a component.

--Welmoed

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

3. There is not one compelling feature in this new package, so as far as features go, you could get a $500 Tungsten T or a $400 Dell Axim and be every bit as happy.
Uhhh... didn't know that the Dell and Tungsten could take 2MP photographs...

Sorry, your statement completely ignores those who would want a pda/digicam combo. Before you dismiss that demand, consider that the combo phone/digicams are a huge hit in Japan right now and from what I understand, the Nokia combination phones are selling well also.

You may not have a need for this device and FWIW, I don't either, but I do believe it provides a unique blend of capabilities that would make this unit stand above others.

[Pony99CA]

I'm missing how anyone could think this thing has modern day PPC's beat. Just because it's a camera and a PDA doesn't mean it's good at either one.

Well, it probably does just as good a job as a PDA as any Palm device, right? And its camera sounds better than any other integrated (or add-on, for that matter) camera I've seen in PDAs or phones.

No, the camera isn't the best, but it seems very convenient -- if you have the uses for it.

As for how it beats a Pocket PC, let's look:

320 x 480 transflective screen. That's half VGA and twice the resolution of any Pocket PC.
Built-in thumb board. Yeah, I know you don't like it, but how can you compare an on-screen keyboard to it? Didn't Handspring say they were only going to produce Treos with keyboards?
The innovative flip-screen, which serves as its own cover and screen protector. How many people on this board complain that almost no Pocket PCs have integrated covers?
And, again, the best integrated or add-on camera of any PDA or phone.

Does the whole package beat a Pocket PC? That depends on the user, of course. It seems very cool to me, but I like my Pocket PCs, and wouldn't spend $800 for it.

Steve

[jeffmd]

I dont get it.. ive seen a clie with a digital camera allready... this one is the same thing but with a better camera. of course for LESS you could get a dell 400mhz and a really good 2 megapixle camera that will have %80 more features then the clie camera does.

[Pony99CA]

-Digital camera. A 2MP camera with auto-focus and flash is just sweet. Granted, you can probably get a great camera apart from it for better quality and less price, but being integrated is just so convenient Convenient! Having to drag around a camera all day, when all I want to carry is my PDA! How is that convinient.

I really can't understnad this desite to integrate for integration's sake. Things like integrated MP3 makes sense ona device that already has the processor and sound output. Integrated video makes sense on a device that already has the display hardware and a processor.

But adding bulky extras like cameras, GPSs, euphoniums, etc. that would be better as a seperate box just seems stupid to me.
It's convenient because the camera is fairly small. You already have the display/viewfinder (the PDA's screen) and the processing and memory capability of the PDA. Adding the camera bulks it up some, especially with a flash, but not as much as a separate digital camera.

The integration makes sense, too -- for some people. If you're someone who likes to take photos, then put them on your Pocket PC to show people, imagine how convenient it would be to have the camera and the viewer integrated. If you're not interested in this, don't buy it.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

6. I like the flash, but if they don't have real optical zoom and a way to add lenses, it is still not a real camera. I love having a neat little camera handy right in my Clie all the time, but it is what it is. It is OK for web pictures, but that is all. Unless it has 4 megapixels, flash, optical zoom, and full speed video capture with sound, it won't replace a real camera. As long as it doesn't the features of the NR/NX were fine.
Oh, please. What is a "real" camera? How many 2 megapixel cameras allow adding lenses? Yet many people consider those "real" cameras. And how many cameras (short of video cameras) capture full-speed video and sound? Certainly no film cameras (other than movie cameras), so I guess all still cameras in the world aren't "real". :roll:

No, it won't replace a high-end camera, but how many people want that? Which digital cameras are selling the best -- 4 megapixel ones or 2 megapixel ones?

Steve

[Foo Fighter]

..why isn't there a Pocket PC OEM with this much chutzpah (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chutzpah)?

Yeah, I've been asking this question for ages. The answer to your question is....because Microsoft has no good Consumer Electronics partners under the PPC umbrella. Look at the current landscape of PPC licensees. They are all corporate giants. Dell, HP, Toshiba.

Sadly, I doubt we will EVER see a PPC with built-in digital camera and swivel display. This is PPCs achilles heal...no innovation.

Still look at the price tag on this thing! $800!!!!!!! 8O :evil: That is INSANE, no one is going to buy it!

[xbalance]

If I had a million dollars I might buy one. After all, I am a frustrated gadget guy, and I could easily see myself as being a spoiled gadget guy if I were rich. I wish Sony were developing on the PocketPC platform.

I look at it this way. I like ice cream. I don't buy all flavors of ice cream. When someone comes out with a new flavor and I don't think it sounds better than my old flavor I don't buy it. BUT, I want the ice cream manufacturers to keep coming out with new flavors of ice cream. I don't want them to give up and just keeping making my current favorite flavor. Therefore, I applaud all of their attempts. Somtimes, I even buy their new products.

Personally, I have the Dell Axim, an Archos Jukebox, a Nokia 8290 and a Nikon Cookpix 950. The specialized products tend to work for me over the multi-purpse products. But I do think the multi-purpose products are very cool and I hope that people buy them so that they keep developing new flavors of these products.

Way to go Sony!

[kaiden.1]

Great Job SONY!!!! They are still Consistantly the FORERUNNER in the Innovative and Consumer Electronics Division of the PDA World!

They Lead in almost everything; (we PPC users Look on , wish and drool) and everyone else follows about 2 years behind.

Yea; they have a bunch of stuff in the way like proprietary things, but if you were in there shoes wouldn't you be doing the same thing?

I would love to be on their electronics designer teams of innovative thinkers. They come up with something really cool and then they think about how to get one up better than what they did the year before.

They put the COOL into PDA, no doubt about it! Still love my PPC, but who knows, the tempation to switch because it's so cool is half the battle. It will be things like this that will keep the high end Palm users with Palm and not with PPC. The Plot thickens....... :D

[RobPPC]

I guess I shouldn't be suprised at the responses from a PPC forum, I guess I'm just not like you guys. I use a PPC and frankly, I hate it.

Where is the innovation? Don't tell me a new processor and a CF+SD slot is innovation. Ohhh, builtin WiFi...that takes a lot of innovation.

Personally, I'm VERY happy to see Sony doing this. I don't agree with their Memory Stick stuff, but who cares...at lease SOMEONE is doing something new. Yes, the 90 may fall short due to price/size/battery life...but guess what? I bet the 110 (or whatever) will be even more interesting.

Now we can all return to our mediocre (and almost identical) PPCs and see if someone has made a cool new wisbar skin to make us different than the dude down the hall.

-Rob

[Janak Parekh]

Yeah, I've been asking this question for ages. The answer to your question is....because Microsoft has no good Consumer Electronics partners under the PPC umbrella. Look at the current landscape of PPC licensees. They are all corporate giants. Dell, HP, Toshiba.
There's a second point: MS has historically been after the corporate market. This device fits squarely into the consumer market, and as such is really a different beast.

I'm glad Sony's doing it, but that doesn't mean I necessarily want one. ;)

By the way, who else is a consumer giant that's into the computing market like Sony is? Most of the others are happy to stay strictly in the non-computing side of things. Sony started with their VAIO line and has been moving aggressively into this market ever since.

I guess I shouldn't be suprised at the responses from a PPC forum, I guess I'm just not like you guys. I use a PPC and frankly, I hate it.
Uh, why are you using a PPC then? :? Palms aren't terrible devices, you know. Get one and make yourself happy.

--janak

[huangzhinong]

..why isn't there a Pocket PC OEM with this much chutzpah (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chutzpah)?

Yeah, I've been asking this question for ages. The answer to your question is....because Microsoft has no good Consumer Electronics partners under the PPC umbrella. Look at the current landscape of PPC licensees. They are all corporate giants. Dell, HP, Toshiba.

Sadly, I doubt we will EVER see a PPC with built-in digital camera and swivel display. This is PPCs achilles heal...no innovation.

Still look at the price tag on this thing! $800!!!!!!! 8O :evil: That is INSANE, no one is going to buy it!
$800 only include wi-fi slot. $150 for the card alone. The total is $950 if somebody want to compare it with H5450.

[Vincent M Ferrari]

Uhhh... didn't know that the Dell and Tungsten could take 2MP photographs...

Sorry, your statement completely ignores those who would want a pda/digicam combo. Before you dismiss that demand, consider that the combo phone/digicams are a huge hit in Japan right now and from what I understand, the Nokia combination phones are selling well also.

Take into account the number one selling Camera/Phone in the US is the T300 from SonyEricsson, which only costs $100 ($50 in some places after a rebate) and even comparing the two makes no sense.

Also, you can get a very nice 2 megapixel camera with an optical zoom for well under 500 bucks. I wouldn't dismiss the demand, but I don't see much of a demand being large for a marginally sub $1000 device.

[denivan]

Now we can all return to our mediocre (and almost identical) PPCs and see if someone has made a cool new wisbar skin to make us different than the dude down the hall.
-Rob

You mean you need a PDA to make yourself stand out from the crowd or to be cool ? I like how PocketPC's are evolving : smaller formfactor, more integrated stuff and cheaper prices (axim). Now if only the PocketPC OS would get more mature, then a PPC would really be an easy to use, helpfull tool in the business world and to get your own life organised.

That Sony thing is innovation-style cool, just like an Aibo PET is cool: they both costs tons of money, nobody you know will have it, it has lots of features, but I bet you'de be embarrassed to bring it to the workfloor ;-)
What I don't get is that Sony is evolving back in time. Their former swivel-type PDA seemed okay to me, now they've added lots of flashy features making the unit more expensive and larger and less battery efficient. Maybe they should concentrate on making their current PDA's smaller and wait a couple of years untill the technology is mature enough to really miniaturize a camera and such...

Ivan

[daveshih]

Isn't it something that everytime Sony (or other innovative brands) introduces an innovative product, our beloved PPC community starts to react quite, shall I say, irrationally?

What could make us react this way? Could it possibly be that the PPC camp isn't really "innovating/daring/trying/testing/envelope-pushing"?

I praise Sony for their innovative designs, future vision, consumer-focus, and most of all, willingness to try.

David

[Dave Conger]

There's a second point: MS has historically been after the corporate market. This device fits squarely into the consumer market, and as such is really a different beast.


Though it might fit the general bubble of being a consumer product, I feel like its price tag almost pops that bubble and puts it in a class of its own. They really expect consumers to want to shell out $800? We keep saying "oh well it has this possibly great camera" but is that really worth the costs? I mean, and is really all you are getting extra....not more memory, not a better OS, not a better processor, etc etc. Except for being integrated, you could get a PPC and decent Digital camera for $600 easily and would have pretty much everything but the integrated keyboard and Bluetooth.

[dh]

I would not buy this NZ thingy, it has too much that I don't need and is too expensive. I don't need to lug a Digital Camera around all the time.

Now if the NX60 had BT and SDIO instead of that dumb Memory Stick I would be there!!

[donkthemagicllama]

Wow... I'd buy it in a second *if*

1) It was a PocketPC
2) It was a PocketPC without the crappy bus speed problems of current XScale devices.

I'm still waiting for a decent PPC to replace my old E-125... so far, nothing that much better has shown up. The closest was the E740, but performance problems prevented me from getting it.

[Ed Hansberry]

My 2c - this is a cool device as long as you realize it isn't a PDA anymore. It is too big and impractical to carry everywhere.

This is like an iPAQ with a PCMCIA sleeve. There is definitely a niche market for this, but no one in their right mind has this on their shopping list next to a Tungsten T, iPAQ h1910 or Dell Axim.

[SofaTater]

I think this would be a great device for certain applications -- say, a realtor. Imagine being able to snap pictures of a house, link the photos with notes and contacts for prospects, communicate wirelessly to transmit the data back to the office, or to print photos for customers... And many other possibilities.

For the average PDA user, it's too big to be practical, but it certainly is intriguing.

I also like the new Palm-based PDA from Garmin with the built-in GPS technology. They featured one on Good Morning America's report from CES this morning -- now, that is something I'd like to see on the PPC side!

[Janak Parekh]

Isn't it something that everytime Sony (or other innovative brands) introduces an innovative product, our beloved PPC community starts to react quite, shall I say, irrationally?
No, we are equal-opportunity bashers. :D When a new Toshiba comes out, we have posters that say the iPaqs are better. When the new Dell came out, we had naysayers say that it was too cheap. etc. etc. There is also no one class of PPC users, as I've mentioned before. Oh, maybe we all hate Memory Stick universally. ;)

Most people here have said this is pretty innovative, but not practical. Dave and Ed also have very good points: this is no longer a PDA, and doesn't really fit into the traditional PDA market per se. This is more of an entertainment/lifestyle device, IMHO. It remains to see whether or not the price point will make it popular or not. It also is interesting to see the fragmentation of the PDA market in general, and a loosening of what a "PDA" is or isn't.

May I also add, if you see the PIC forums people are having nearly the same debate. People are all over the map with this device.

I think this would be a great device for certain applications -- say, a realtor.
You know, I was thinking exactly that. It could fill that niche absolutely perfectly.

--janak

[sponge]

Sony has simply been all looks and no price. We were just shopping for HDTVs a few days ago, saw a $3000 Sony one. It looked AWFUL. Next to it? A bigger, $2200, Mitsubishi HDTV with an awesome screen. Guess which one we went with.

Same case here. $950 with WiFi is not acceptable

[hrianto]

In 3-5 years, this kind of integrated device will be common for both camp PPC/Palm. And tell me if all devices that you can find at stores are integrated and the price/performance are reasonable... anybody complaint? 8)

Invention in technology :idea: has bring us pocketable powerful PDA which is unimaginable even 5 years ago.

Expensive? Performance? Well... Tell me which device is perfect at the first time? Remember "First time Device" not the 2nd,3rd,...

Without the first one... there will not be the second and the third...

Integration is the "prime directive" for PDA. With acceptable price/performance... no company will success without following this directive. Sony is pushing to that direction.

Believe it or not, many companies will follow that direction sooner or later. :roll:

[denivan]

I think this would be a great device for certain applications -- say, a realtor. Imagine being able to snap pictures of a house, link the photos with notes and contacts for prospects, communicate wirelessly to transmit the data back to the office, or to print photos for customers... And many other possibilities.

Maybe for a damage claim expert this could be good to. Take pictures of damages in car accidents or stuff like house floods etc., add notes to it and e-mail or sync them directly to the insurance's database.

I think we can all agree that this is a pretty nifty piece of gadgetry that will certainly find its place in niche markets, but I seriously doubt we can call this a PDA anymore, just like all those ruggedized PocketPC devices that can withstand hurricanes (almost) aren't real PDA's....just like a T-mobile isn't a real phone etc. etc. etc. ;-)

Greetz,
Ivan

[Duncan]

Sony Innovation?

Hmmm...

1) Swivel screen. Putting to one side the fact that they were not the first to do this, portrait swivel is of considerably less practical use than landcape would be. This is nothing more than repeating a trick that won them buyers two iterations ago.

2) Built-in thumbboard? Not unique and (in a non phone enabled device) of questionable value.

3) Bluetooth built-in? Beaten to this by many in both Pocket PC and Palm camp - plus - BT in the Sony Vaio is a joke - poorly implemented, limited, power-hungry, unfriendly.

4) Screen? Transflective has been done by many (and better) now. 320x480 may seem good - but in effect it is a restriction of the Palm OS that enforces this resolution. At least future Pocket PCs are free to introduce 480x640 screens without compatibility problems...

5) Built-in 2 MP camera? The point? When most just want a basic 0.3 - 1.3 MP digi-cam in their PDA/phones?

I would strongly refute the idea that Sony is 'innovating'. Adding fancy features is not the same as innovation. A better OS, usable battery life, non-proprietary storage and accessory capability, more memory - these would be true innovations (not as flashy - but more useful). Sony, as per usual, are showing how much they value style over substance.

Put a Pocket PC OS on this device - and I still wouldn't want it!

The new Sharp 'twistable' PDA however - that I would consider to show real innovation... and the recent fuss over that prototype HP PDA with built-in keyboard/cover shows that Foo Fighter is frankly (IMHO!) mistaken to assume that Sony (as the consumer orientated company) are the innovators...!

[Janak Parekh]

I think we can all agree that this is a pretty nifty piece of gadgetry that will certainly find its place in niche markets, but I seriously doubt we can call this a PDA anymore, just like all those ruggedized PocketPC devices that can withstand hurricanes (almost) aren't real PDA's....just like a T-mobile isn't a real phone etc. etc. etc. ;-)
Well-put, and interesting. Are we seeing the "nicheification" of handheld devices? Could Foo be right and PDA's approaching an end as one category? Inquiring minds want to know ;)

--janak

[RobPPC]

[quote=RobPPC]I guess I shouldn't be suprised at the responses from a PPC forum, I guess I'm just not like you guys. I use a PPC and frankly, I hate it.
Uh, why are you using a PPC then? :? Palms aren't terrible devices, you know. Get one and make yourself happy.

--janak

I don't think I suggested that the Palm was the answer...simply that the current PPC isn't. My point being that I actually do like seeing innovative ideas out on the market instead of the boiler plate of the PPC.

If we can take a step back we see that all the PPCs out there are, what, 80%(more/less?) common. While this does have it's advantages in production and standardization of the platform I think it shouldn't be championed as 'the answer'.

It's like saying that the best car is the Honda Accord and that those people making 911's or Vipers are all wrong. Some of the comments here make me feel more like I'm at a Ralph Nader site instead of a site about 'PPC Thoughts' and cool technology in general.

To give a bit of idea, some of my handheld PC's have included:
Psion 3, Psion 3a, Psion 5, Palm V, MobilePro 800, Maestro.

-Rob

[denivan]

Well-put, and interesting. Are we seeing the "nicheification" of handheld devices? Could Foo be right and PDA's approaching an end as one category? Inquiring minds want to know ;)


Thnx for calling me interesting ;-) Personally I think that 'nicheification' of handheld devices is a good thing. If companies feel that a certain kind of niche product (like this sony and like ruggedized PocketPC's) can find it's place in the market, then that just means that the overlapping type of product (handheld devices in our case) is getting more mature, and I think we can all applaud that. Handheld devices aren't just for showing off anymore, and you don't have to be a the-gadgeteer.com kinda guy to own one, handheld devices can be fun, handy and productive...just pick what you need !

[Macguy59]

A device like this that has a decent 2 mega-pixel camera with a flash AND built-in Wi-Fi AND Bluetooth in that form factor is no doubt some accomplishment. I always think os SONY as being on PAR with Apple on the innovation front. SONY does a good job adding what is indispensable for a built-in camera - flash to this model which makes it a real multi-functional device. The new Samsung and Hitachi Pocket PC phones are tempting but the built-in cameras will be fancy but useless add-ons without a built-in flash.

Wi-Fi is not builtin. It has a CF slot for a proprietary Sony card.

[Macguy59]

Sorry. This is just as silly as the the so called "smart" displays that were just intoduced. $800 ? Please. Sony has finally produced a loss leader with this device. Sony's previous devices were slick and were reasonbly priced. In fact if they hadn't used a proprietary CF slot slot on the Peg NX-60, I probably would have bought one as my next PDA. I have mostly been a PPC fan, but more so a "best tool" for the job kind of guy. Take a couple of pics with this thing with the flash on and see how fast the battery drains 8O

[PapaSmurfDan]

Is Sony really going to sell this? The NX-70 had a big nifty factor with no practicalty factor. The NX-70 was allready slightly too long to comfortable fit in my jacket pocket. No WiFi card out for it yet and the fact that I can't get a 1gb memory stick on the spot made me instantly remove it off of my shopping list of PDAs. The NX-90 has promise for commerical use if sony tries to market it right, but they won't. Someone mentioned real estate, perfect use for this, that is a perfect use for this. Insurance companies could become a large user base of the NX-90, if Sony tries to push it.

However, form the poor battery life mentioned, I think they want this to be a toy instead of a tool. 4-5 hours of juice (w/my WiFi card on) is just barly enough to get through a day for me. Good thing I bought the Axim.

Personally I think both MS and Sony/Palm have the idea of a PDA now wrong. I did not buy my PPC as a PDA, I bought it as a Laptop replacement. I don't want to play lots of games with my PPC or take pictures of friends on my pda (isn't that why I have a digicam with a CF card for?). I want to have instant access to class notes, able to write/edit a paper (roughly), and able to browse the net while drinking coffee. And from the current looks of things, Sony appears to be heading for that entertainment device handheld while MS seems to be going for an enterprise intergration device.

However, I realize there are many different views on what A PDA should be, and I repect them. But at anything more than 500 bucks, you are quickly running into a price of a laptop.

BTW, If the NX-70 had a Wifi card (out when I was shopping for PDAs) for 50 bucks and had 64megs of ram onboard, I may of bought one.

-Dan

[Janak Parekh]

I don't think I suggested that the Palm was the answer...simply that the current PPC isn't. My point being that I actually do like seeing innovative ideas out on the market instead of the boiler plate of the PPC.
OK. So are you approaching the PPC platform as "least evil"? ;)

If we can take a step back we see that all the PPCs out there are, what, 80%(more/less?) common. While this does have it's advantages in production and standardization of the platform I think it shouldn't be championed as 'the answer'.
There are different "correct answers", of course. Pocket PC's are, unsurprisingly, starting to resemble the PC platform. There are many tangible ups and downs as a result.

Some of the comments here make me feel more like I'm at a Ralph Nader site instead of a site about 'PPC Thoughts' and cool technology in general.
Oh come on, we debate everything. There are a lot of people here who think the iPaq is too expensive too.

--janak

[SofaTater]

I popped over the ClieSource forums and over there the new Clie is an overwhelming success. Interesting on how perspectives can be so different between the two "camps"...

The thing that struck me about the discussion there is the number of people who were angry about Sony releasing a new model that made their NX devices "obsolete" -- I didn't think anything was obsolete until it couldn't be supported by the current technology.

Of course, I guess there was a little bit of that over here on the PPC side when the latest crop of devices came out, but it seemed particularly vociferous over on ClieSource side.

If you feel compelled to upgrade your device every time a new model comes out, the PDA has become more than a productivity tool for you...

[Ed Hansberry]

I popped over the ClieSource forums and over there the new Clie is an overwhelming success. Interesting on how perspectives can be so different between the two "camps"...
I popped over to Palminfocenter during lunch and it seems to be running there as it is here. From "Way super cool gimme gimme gimme" to "$800 for a PDA?" to "Sony has gone over the deep end"

[Rirath]

Personally I think both MS and Sony/Palm have the idea of a PDA now wrong. I did not buy my PPC as a PDA, I bought it as a Laptop replacement. I don't want to play lots of games with my PPC or take pictures of friends on my pda (isn't that why I have a digicam with a CF card for?). I want to have instant access to class notes, able to write/edit a paper (roughly), and able to browse the net while drinking coffee.

Yes, totally agreed. For me, my PPC's were brought as laptop substitutes. I've always wanted mobile computing, without the major pain of carrying around a notebook. The key word is mobile computing, not mobile data recording, mobile note taking, mobile picture snapping... computing. I need a file system, I need a REAL os. I need a computer, not a PDA and not a sleek looking gadget.

It was said that price compared to anything I have is irrelevant... why the heck is that? It's not irrelevant that a Dell and a sleek camera like Janak listed at the start of this is the same price as this. It reminds me so much of the all in one office machines down at Staples. People would look at it and assume it was a wonder of the world. Then I'd explain to them that they'd get half the scan resolution and half the print resolution of a seperate scanner/printer, for the same price. They'd ask about the copy function... software can do that just fine. They'd talk about how much space it saves... saves? Personally I'd never fit one of those monstrosities onto my desk (http://home.insightbb.com/~tonyp/ddr.jpg), where as my scanner and printer sits perfectly in their own spaces. Same with this unit, I'd have one heck of a time bringing that thing anywhere... but my digital camera and Dell easily fits in their own cases.

Personally though, I do want a lot of games. :) Why not.
(Link is to snapshot of desk layout for the curious. :wink: )

[kaiden.1]

Now how many of us here would just sanp at the chance to pick one up if that same device would have come out with the word IPAQ on the top of it? The answer is: we would be jumping up and down and praising HP. So come on let's not sound so crabby. SONY GETS credit. :D

[Gen-M]

Where's the fingerprint scanner??

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Gen-M]

And USB Host?

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[Rirath]

Now how many of us here would just sanp at the chance to pick one up if that same device would have come out with the word IPAQ on the top of it? The answer is: we would be jumping up and down and praising HP. So come on let's not sound so crabby. SONY GETS credit.

But you speak of a big big difference. First off, that varies per person. I personally wouldn't buy and certainly wouldn't be jumping for joy about an $800 tag. Second, many many things would be different if it was a PPC and not a Palm. You'd have the file system many want, the capabilities of a PPC, etc. PDA's and PPC's are not interchangeable terms like so many think.

[omu]

I own a NX 70 for a week now and think that NX 70 and NZ 90 are targeted at different users. I changed from Handera to Sony NX 70 although I generally dont like Sony and I also hate the MemorySticks. I'm not fanatic about Palm and seriously thought about the ipaq 5450.
Still I now quite a lot of PPC owners that went for the NX as well. You can find them at cliesource.com, there you also get to now why some change systems:

-For me personally, it was about screen (for texts) and virtual keyboard. The option was 500 USD for a Sony or about 700 for an Ipaq. If I thought the Ipaq would get a higher resolution screen within the next 2 months I would have waited for it.


- reason no. 1 is the screen. I went for it because I wanted to give up my filoxfax, which I still used for appointments, meetings etc. The Screen on the NX (NZ) gives you 2 weeks at once in every detail. Even my wife was amazed and she dislikes this technology. A friend of mine uses an ipaq 3870 for a year for work and he was amazed. He almost couldn't stop playing with it and immediately thought about buying it after he tried it. It almost feels like a notebook's desktop in terms of details and smoothness. You basically enjoy it everey time you use it (at least for me), it's a real BIG difference to Handera resolution (240x320), which I also got for texts.

- reason no. 2 is the flexibility: Mostly I use tablet mode and onscreen keyboard. When I type more than 2 sentences, I switch to keyboard mode, which gives you a laptop-like-feeling. The keyboard is fine to use with two fingers and lets you type for 15 min. without problems. You put it on a desk and you can type away with getting your fingers aching from constant tapping.

- reason no. 3 is the speed: I get NO waiting times when using the applications, even when reading/writing to the memory-stick. It's just not annoying any more as it used to be (waiting times of 3-4 sec.). The screen refresh ist also immediately when changing between programs.

- the multimedia is very well integrated, although I'm not a fan of that. E.g. you get ONE application that shows all kind of media files (movie, self-recorded-movie, picture etc.), where you can select your file, which automatically opens the application. There is other programs as well that basically function in terms of a file system pretty much. Sony is quite away from the basic palm-os with this. For example, they give you an desktop-image-converter, that transfers your video-cd's or AVIs into mpeg-4-streams in different qualities. I got a 1h movie into 60 MB file on my Memory Stick. I was watching it for 1h and still got 75% on my batteries (they last for 4-5 hours in normal PIM use, including some music). You can replace the NZ 90 batteries; in the NX/NR they're built-in.
For me personally, the easyness of the multimedia usage makes me want to watch movies on it, which I originally never intended to deal with.

I really enjoy this forum, so maybe I'll put up another post with some screenshots of what WORKING with the NX/NZ feels like (although the image is that of a multimedia pda). The Camera etc. is just nice extras that you forget about 90% of the time. I now some other people who did chose it for business as well, especially former Handera users.

I think Sony is trying to get a share of the high-price-market (like IPAQ).
I think that's pretty clever, since they're earning more USD per Item this way. I don't like the companies policy of not sticking to their products for more than 3 months, but they certainly derserve some credit for trying out a lot of things.

If you use your PPC for work (To Do, Contacts, meetings), you should go to a shop and give the keyboard/screen a try. I'm not at all dogmatic about it; just take a look for yourself.

keep up the good work (and Humor ;-)) at this website/forum
omu

[T-Will]

Looks like a nice device and I'm glad to see innovation in packing in a ton of features into a handheld, but personally I'm spoiled by the iPAQ 1910 form factor and wouldn't even consider getting a handheld as big as this Sony or even a handheld as large as the iPAQ 3000 series. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

If you use your PPC for work (To Do, Contacts, meetings), you should go to a shop and give the keyboard/screen a try. I'm not at all dogmatic about it; just take a look for yourself.
Yes, the screen is the one thing I think Sony innovated, and innovated well, in. I want one of those :cry:

As to the keyboard, I tried one - it's OK, but I'd much rather have that HP prototype we were chatting about earlier with the flip-out keyboard. I'll survive with my Stowaway and clip-on thumbboard until we see such next-gen solutions (hopefully it'll make it to market).

--janak

[Macguy59]

[quote] much space it saves... saves? Personally I'd never fit one of those monstrosities onto my desk (http://home.insightbb.com/~tonyp/ddr.jpg), where as my scanner and printer sits perfectly in their own spaces. Same with this unit, I'd have one heck of a time bringing that thing anywhere... but my digital camera and Dell easily fits in their own cases.

Personally though, I do want a lot of games. :) Why not.
(Link is to snapshot of desk layout for the curious. :wink: )

I'm sure jason might enjoy the sword sheaths :)

[spursdude]

Now how many of us here would just sanp at the chance to pick one up if that same device would have come out with the word IPAQ on the top of it? The answer is: we would be jumping up and down and praising HP. So come on let's not sound so crabby. SONY GETS credit. :D

I honestly wouldn't be jumping up and down if any corporation on any platform made this. I would think, "wow, that's pretty tight, but poorly done for now."

I am glad that Sony is trying to raise the bar on PDAs - this means that in a matter of time, we can actually see a package like this well done, with a good form factor and good battery life. For now, though, I don't like it, because it's got too many problems (as would a new iPaq like this).

Bottom line - the thing about this device I like the most is that eventually this will all be in all PDAs (except the Zire :D), done well, without much to gripe about. For now, though I'll gripe.

[HR]

I have always argued that PPC must break into the consumer market by creating devices that appeal to consumers and not trying to sell the same models that appeal to head geeks in enterprises. Most people here are trying to rationalize why this is not a good device. You are missing the point. You can rationalize that a car with a V-4 will do everything you need, but the fact is that tons of people buy V-6s and V-8s. The point is that Sony has created a product that will wow consumers. PPC is light years behind in this respect.

[MultiMatt]

I remember speaking with Chris Dunphy from PalmSource at the Pocket PC Summit. He was touting a Clie' and showing it off to everyone who would lend him an ear.
There were some very impressive things about the device, as there are in this new unit as well. One thing above all was the screen display. Chris pointed out that Sony has a distinct advantage in that category (in a long story that, in brief, was about Sony owning the companies that make the displays, and that they get first dibs).
Still, it is a Palm OS, and I just don't care for it.
BUT....

Personally, I enjoy seeing a company push the threshold with a device. I remember when the mantra of Palm users was "this is only a PIM device - no one wants all those bells and whistles of a Pocket PC!"

Now, they are singing a different tune! And that is largely due to Sony. If it weren't for these new Sony devices, Palm would be hurting big time. (my prediction: expect Sony to own PalmSource within the next year)

Kudos to Sony for "thinking crazy", for stretching the device (to perhaps more than the typical user would want)! It encourages all of the competition (regardless of OS) to get back to the drawing board, and that benefits us ALL!!!!

There are going to be people who will be excited about an "all-in-one" device, and they won't scoff at the price.
Then there will be people who will want their devices separate, because each will be a superior product by itself.

I myself am still struggling to determine what is a "must have" in my device, and what could be separate. I'm carrying too much crap with me, that's for sure!

Wait until a company comes out with an implantable device! 8O You wanna see some people freak!!!! It'll be then!

Matt

[ghoonk]

A PDA is only as goods as its OS. In this case, I'll stick with PocketPC, thank you very much. I used to encounter mysterious application errors that caused hard resets with my Palm, but no more :)

Pity Sony isn't making PocketPC devices. They could really give HP a run for their money. Hell, I'd buy a Sony PocketPC with Memory Stick *grin*

[Foo Fighter]

The point is that Sony has created a product that will wow consumers. PPC is light years behind in this respect.

Agreed, but this device isn't going to take off....it's too expensive, and there isn't a large enough market for expensive niche devices like this. It may wow consumers...but Sony priced it right out of their wallets. The days of $500+ handhelds are coming to an end. If they introduce a T-series model built on OS5/xScale at $299..now that would be a killer product.

[heov]

http://www.sonystyle.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/eCS/Store/en/-/USD/SY_DisplayProductInformation-Start;sid=325kTAgpgqRkWjY38_huR0ckycVaKWJt_io=?ProductID=qxEKC0%2eNG7YAAADyXF586aJ%2e

don't know if it's been posted yet...

This is more than it seems you guys.. it's even got AV output via cradle!!!!

but still has only 16mb and 200mhz xscale!

That AV output is Awesome!

It also has USB host i believe!

[heov]

there's also a cradle w/ a built in speaker... not a bad idea!

Oh, and by the way, the physical size seems to be the same as the NX series...

Also, that tripod in the pic is actually the cradle, it's not built in ;)

Oh yeah, in case it's not posted, sony anounced 256, 512, and 1GB MS today! Yeah, they work w/ "newer old" slots... Apperantly they work w/ the the current NX and this NZ series, but not the older clie's- but they do work in everything else like cameras, etc... MAX capacity of 32GB...

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I own a NX 70 for a week now and think that NX 70 and NZ 90 are targeted at different users. I changed from Handera to Sony NX 70 although I generally dont like Sony and I also hate the MemorySticks. I'm not fanatic about Palm and seriously thought about the ipaq 5450.

Omu, you provide some compelling arguments for the Sony.

I certainly don't see myself changing over anytime soon, but if I had to choose something other than a PPC device, it would likely be a Sony. The 320x480 screen and the operational speed of the device is what I'm most envious of.

Like I've said before, I do believe that there are people that will see the combo pda/digicam as a useful device, though not likely a big seller.

I've recently been looking for smaller point-and-click type of digicam (to complement my 4MP Olympus C4040) and the best ones I see right now offer between 2-3MP and cost at least $300.

While people can question the usefulness of such a combo device, I don't think the $800 price tag is all that shocking considering the features included.

[Macguy59]

I have always argued that PPC must break into the consumer market by creating devices that appeal to consumers and not trying to sell the same models that appeal to head geeks in enterprises. Most people here are trying to rationalize why this is not a good device. You are missing the point. You can rationalize that a car with a V-4 will do everything you need, but the fact is that tons of people buy V-6s and V-8s. The point is that Sony has created a product that will wow consumers. PPC is light years behind in this respect.

Wowing and buying are very different things. I am VERY WOWED with Apples new 17" Powerbook, but I am certainly not going to buy one. Now the 12" model is another matter :wink:

I'll bet you Sony sells less then 50,000 of these units.

[Will T Smith]

You guys sound like palm users criticizing PocketPC.

Too big, too expensive, poor battery life, blah blah blah.

It's a really cool device. Obviously, it's not made for the average joe any more than a ZR-1 corvette is. Sometimes companies release products just for the glitz factor.

Sony is showing us a vision of what handheld computers may be like in the years to come. Their origami designs are quite revolutionary and kick the hell out of iPaqs "sleeve" concept.

One definite comment I will make is that PocketPC.2003 had BETTER support higher screen resolutions. Right now, the high end Clie's are running at 320x480 which makes PocketPC look blocky by comparison. Microsoft cannot afford to be perceived as "behind the curve."

The PDA wars are far from over and Microsoft could get knocked down a few pegs if they don't deliver serious improvement to stay current with Clie.

[Will T Smith]

Sony Innovation?

Hmmm...

1) Swivel screen. Putting to one side the fact that they were not the first to do this, portrait swivel is of considerably less practical use than landcape would be. This is nothing more than repeating a trick that won them buyers two iterations ago.

2) Built-in thumbboard? Not unique and (in a non phone enabled device) of questionable value.

3) Bluetooth built-in? Beaten to this by many in both Pocket PC and Palm camp - plus - BT in the Sony Vaio is a joke - poorly implemented, limited, power-hungry, unfriendly.

4) Screen? Transflective has been done by many (and better) now. 320x480 may seem good - but in effect it is a restriction of the Palm OS that enforces this resolution. At least future Pocket PCs are free to introduce 480x640 screens without compatibility problems...

5) Built-in 2 MP camera? The point? When most just want a basic 0.3 - 1.3 MP digi-cam in their PDA/phones?

I would strongly refute the idea that Sony is 'innovating'. Adding fancy features is not the same as innovation. A better OS, usable battery life, non-proprietary storage and accessory capability, more memory - these would be true innovations (not as flashy - but more useful). Sony, as per usual, are showing how much they value style over substance.

Put a Pocket PC OS on this device - and I still wouldn't want it!

The new Sharp 'twistable' PDA however - that I would consider to show real innovation... and the recent fuss over that prototype HP PDA with built-in keyboard/cover shows that Foo Fighter is frankly (IMHO!) mistaken to assume that Sony (as the consumer orientated company) are the innovators...!

I nominate this article as the biggest PocketPCThoughts spin of the year.

The author has taken clearly superior features in a SHIPING product and played them as liabilities. Comparison to a photo that could be mear PhotoShop craft. That takes the cake.

I recommend that the author apply to the RNC where he would be successfull prosperous and wealthy. ;-)

[spursdude]

It's a really cool device. Obviously, it's not made for the average joe any more than a ZR-1 corvette is. Sometimes companies release products just for the glitz factor.



Except a Corvette may be a bit slimmer than this model. :D

I agree with you when you talk about how this may be a model for future PDAs, and that hopefully PPC will model. I could definitely use some of those features (although I could also use the extra $$ or the extra pocket space too). All in good time, these features shall be standard, along with a fuel cell battery and an iPaq 1910 size. :D That'll be the day....

[Foo Fighter]

You guys sound like palm users criticizing PocketPC.

Yeah, that's a good point. A lot of PPC users don't understand (and probably never will) why people pay more for a PalmOS device.

Too big, too expensive, poor battery life, blah blah blah.

Those were credible arguments against Pocket PC. And it is the reason PalmOS dominates. But PPC is getting cheaper, smaller, lighter, better battery life. So the argument doesn't have as much fuel for the fire.

Sony is showing us a vision of what handheld computers may be like in the years to come. Their origami designs are quite revolutionary and kick the hell out of iPaqs "sleeve" concept.

Yes, SONY is the master when it comes to industrial design and hardware innovations. But right now I am more interested in SONY competing with PPC on value. Yeah, a snazzy $800 camera/PDA combo running OS5/xScale is cool. But how about a practical $299 PDA running OS5/xScale with 320x480 and virtual graffiti? That would be even cooler, not to mention competitive.

One definite comment I will make is that PocketPC.2003 had BETTER support higher screen resolutions. Right now, the high end Clie's are running at 320x480 which makes PocketPC look blocky by comparison. Microsoft cannot afford to be perceived as "behind the curve."

I doubt PPC will ever go higher than 320x240. MS isn't concerned about matching PalmSource tit for tat in a feature comparison match. They are targeting the enterprise. Plus they want to keep a standardized platform for hardware and software development.

Don't forget, Sony's ultra-high res screen is also a burden on third party software developers that must now program for different screen resolutions (160x160, 320x240, 320x320, and 320x480). The Palm platform as a whole is becoming increasingly fragmented.

I agree though, SONY's displays are the absolute best I have ever seen on a PDA. Sorry guys, but even 320x320 on a SONY offers far sharper image quality than any PPC. Even my old T615c could make my Axim pale in comparison. :cry:

The PDA wars are far from over and Microsoft could get knocked down a few pegs if they don't deliver serious improvement to stay current with Clie.

Knocked down a few pegs? Microsoft is already at the bottom of the stairs. It's an uphill battle with nowhere to go but up.

[Daniel]

Boy, what a thread! Not a prize in sight either! ;)

I have to say that a applaud Sony for creating such an innovative device (Yes all the peices *may* have been elsewhere but not in one device!).

I wouldn't buy it. I've looked at the NV and NX and thought that they were pretty cool, but not for me. In fact I don't think I would buy any Palm but get back to me after PalmOS6 comes out and Sony has their latest and greatest out and have dumped all proprietary slots (never happen but I can dream).

The price! Wow! I would consider the 54xx but that is because it has Wi-Fi and BT built in (and I'd use the fingerprint scanner!). Ok it has no camera but as far as I'm concerned that's not important (I own a Canon G1).

So they model the Wi-Fi slot after CF but make it not work with normal cards. Ever think why? Firstly because they are evil and don't want anyone using standards ;). Second, perhaps it's because if you inserted CF into this there would then be no readable file system for any other device to read off it (except the Sony)? Sure you could just leave it there but the conversion to a stream based file system if you did anything to it would be a major PITA. Correct me if I'm wrong (what am I saying everyone will anyway) but wouldn't that be a major reason? Not to mention that if bloody Memory Stick is so great, where the hell is the Wi-Fi Memory Stick card?!?!?

As for Pocket PCs being "boiler-plate", I agree. Of course there are advantages to doing this as others have noticed, such as lower cost of entry and easier platform support. Economies of scale across manufacturers for another. As far as I know Microsofts license dicates a large amount of what tech goes into PPC devises, so there is a lower level of innovation than at Sony because Microsoft wants it that way.

Some time ago I saw a web-pad made by a manufacturer that was (I think) 4" screen 128MB RAM (was meant to be anyway). It was excellent, kind of like a mini-tablet pc, that's what I want. I may not represent the overall market place but I don't really care. The only thing was that it was running linux which I was not into, but that's just me. :)

&lt;rant>
I find it amazing that, in just about every market, there are two sides to all of these things. I mean, of course there are two sides, there's always one group trying to bring down another. It's the same as Apple vs. PC. Palm vs. PPC. Linux vs. Windows (or some might say everybody). Snowboards vs. Skiiers. The list goes on and on. I'm sure it's just a human trait (I'm sure not above it, Linix annoys the hell out of me but I'm an Apple user and I like darwin/FreeBSD but love PPC). It just seems that when we all emotionally invest in whatever we're doing we immediately lose our objectivity, in some cases it's a shame.

I think that all users of technology should be glad that companies like Sony are willing to spend their money to innovate. It's the same with Apple. The people from the "other side" who deride these companies should remember that the really cool stuff out of these devices will find their way into your preferred tech toy in time and you should be thankful for it.
&lt;/rant>

Well, that's my $14.65 (adjusted for inflation since I started writing!).

Daniel

[Pony99CA]

..why isn't there a Pocket PC OEM with this much chutzpah (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=chutzpah)?

Yeah, I've been asking this question for ages. The answer to your question is....because Microsoft has no good Consumer Electronics partners under the PPC umbrella. Look at the current landscape of PPC licensees. They are all corporate giants. Dell, HP, Toshiba.

Ummm, Toshiba is a consumer electronics company. I have a Toshiba TV and two Toshiba DVD players, and my girlfriend had a Toshiba VCR. Toshiba also is a Tivo licensee, I think.


Sadly, I doubt we will EVER see a PPC with built-in digital camera and swivel display. This is PPCs achilles heal...no innovation.

No innovation? How far back do you want to go? I can go back to Windows CE 2.0 devices and point out innovation, but I'll focus on Pocket PCs.

The original iPAQ -- Flash ROM, great color screen, sleeves for expandability, multimedia capabilities, voice recording, etc.
Toshiba e740 -- Built-in WiFi
iPAQ 3870 -- Built-in Bluetooth
iPAQ 5450 -- Built-in fingerprint scanner

No, there hasn't been much innovation in form factor, but saying there's "no innovation" seems foolish.


Still look at the price tag on this thing! $800!!!!!!! 8O :evil: That is INSANE, no one is going to buy it!

People said that about the iPAQ 3970, too, and many people here have bought them. They won't be huge consumer successes, but it won't surprise me if they become uber-geek chic. :-)

Steve

[heov]

that is not innovation, that is more of an evolution... You can put the iPaq 3600 next to the 5450 and you just get an evolved iPaq- new tech, that's all... the basic design is even the same, and the desing ain't great!

OTOH, if you put to Clie s300 (released about the same time as the iPaq was) next to this NZ clie, you can see some real INNOVATION in both design and functionality...

[Pony99CA]

that is not innovation, that is more of an evolution... You can put the iPaq 3600 next to the 5450 and you just get an evolved iPaq- new tech, that's all... the basic design is even the same, and the desing ain't great!

OTOH, if you put to Clie s300 (released about the same time as the iPaq was) next to this NZ clie, you can see some real INNOVATION in both design and functionality...
Maybe you don't count "new tech" as an "innovation", but I'll stick with the dictionary definition:


innovation (în´e-vâ´shen) noun
1. The act of introducing something new.
2. Something newly introduced.

The things I cited were new in PDAs, I believe, and thus innovations. Palms certainly didn't have them.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

Maybe you don't count "new tech" as an "innovation"
"Innovation" is the most overloaded word as of late. Simply put, it means whatever people want it to mean. Maybe "original" or "first" is a better term? Like "first handheld device to have a file system" or "first handheld device to have a 2MP camera"? Not as catchy as innovation though.

--janak

[Pony99CA]

Maybe you don't count "new tech" as an "innovation"
"Innovation" is the most overloaded word as of late. Simply put, it means whatever people want it to mean.

Sad, but true. Sometimes it's like talking to Humpty Dumpty in Alice in Wonderland. :-)


Maybe "original" or "first" is a better term? Like "first handheld device to have a file system" or "first handheld device to have a 2MP camera"? Not as catchy as innovation though.

Well, my list of Pocket PC innovations were also firsts, I believe. I also think Sony has been innovative; I just hate when people unjustly say the Pocket PC arena hasn't been.

Steve

[heov]

but things as "first" to me doesn't count as innovation... to me, innovation, at least in the PDA world, is something new AND unexpected/unthought of...

I mean, we all new PDAs are getting BT and Wifi, that some would merge w/ cell phones soon... that is all predictable... innovation is not!

Yes, the biometric security in the iPaq can be counted as innovative, but adding 2 slots or whatever is just technology getting better...

The things you listed, such as color screen and flash rom... that's not an "idea," that's just the technology improving... Next year if we have 5Ghz in a laptop- that's not innovation (to me at least).

Adding WiFi extreme (802.11g) will not be innovation- WE EXPECT to to occur, just like we expect screens to get better and memory to get larger.

However, who thought sony was ever going to release a PDA in a clamshell device w/ a twistable screen and keyboard &lt;--- that's innovation - a new concept.

That's innovation to me, at least in the PDA sector.

[Janak Parekh]

However, who thought sony was ever going to release a PDA in a clamshell device w/ a twistable screen and keyboard &lt;--- that's innovation - a new concept.
The problem with this is that when these technologies first come out, they're often innovation. The iPaq 3650 with a reflective screen was an innovation. So was the sleeve technology. The handwriting recognition on these units were an innovation. They weren't things people were thinking about. Now, everyone expects expandability and integrable wireless, viewability of color screens in the sunlight, etc.

I don't deny that Sony doesn't innovate; but there are fine lines to a evolution vs. revolution and I think people here fall on each side of the line.

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I mean, we all new PDAs are getting BT and Wifi, that some would merge w/ cell phones soon... that is all predictable... innovation is not!

Yes, the biometric security in the iPaq can be counted as innovative, but adding 2 slots or whatever is just technology getting better...

The things you listed, such as color screen and flash rom... that's not an "idea," that's just the technology improving... Next year if we have 5Ghz in a laptop- that's not innovation (to me at least).

Adding WiFi extreme (802.11g) will not be innovation- WE EXPECT to to occur, just like we expect screens to get better and memory to get larger.

However, who thought sony was ever going to release a PDA in a clamshell device w/ a twistable screen and keyboard &lt;--- that's innovation - a new concept.

I see where you're going Heov. Bluetooth is really an improvement over IR technology and WiFi is an improvement over "cabled" networking technology. IR technology was clunky and using CAT-5 cables for network connectivity really hurt the mobility aspect of the PocketPC. Both technologies were in high-demand before they even came to fuition.

I agree the fingerprint technology was true innovation by that definition. No one had even thought of having this technology in PPCs (this technology is certainly not common in any other line of consumer electronics).

I think you're right, if you compare the first PPC to the current PPCs, what you see is a whole slew of improvements but little true innovation.

Just as a personal note, I don't necessarily think a lack of innovation is necessarily bad. If the original concept was already great to begin with, then innovation may not be necessarily needed.

Note though that innovation rarely succeeds in the marketplace on the FIRST attempt, but it's often an important step in introducing new types of products. I *think* Kyocera was first to bring a true compo Phone/PDA(Palm). It was huge and boxy and the unit failed, but that unit helped kick-start a new demand for combination Phone/PDA units that has been evolving since the original innovation.

Kudos to Sony for rolling the dice and taking a chance on something different.

[Pony99CA]

The problem with this is that when these technologies first come out, they're often innovation. The iPaq 3650 with a reflective screen was an innovation. So was the sleeve technology. The handwriting recognition on these units were an innovation. They weren't things people were thinking about. Now, everyone expects expandability and integrable wireless, viewability of color screens in the sunlight, etc.

Exactly! Flash ROM was also something I don't think people expected in a Pocket PC. Sure, it made sense, but nobody had done it before the iPAQ, right?


I don't deny that Sony doesn't innovate; but there are fine lines to a evolution vs. revolution and I think people here fall on each side of the line.

Yes, and evolution can include innovation. I think heov is only counting revolution as being innovative.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I *think* Kyocera was first to bring a true compo Phone/PDA(Palm). It was huge and boxy and the unit failed, but that unit helped kick-start a new demand for combination Phone/PDA units that has been evolving since the original innovation.
Actually, it was Qualcomm, with their pdQ. I should know, I was the man with "the brick". And it wasn't really revolutionary, because the Nokia Communicator 9000 came before it. And that was a super-brick.

I'd still debate your notions of the original Pocket PC's not being innovative, but I'm having a harder and harder time using that term. ;)

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

I'd still debate your notions of the original Pocket PC's not being innovative, but I'm having a harder and harder time using that term. ;)

Oh... I do believe the original PPCs were innovative. People used to Palms suddenly had the power of a computer in their hands. What I meant to say is that I just don't think there's been a lot of true innovation (or revolution as Steve puts it) since its introduction.

Let me sidestep that comment for a second though to say that IMO the original concept was great enough that we didn't need more innovations as much as we needed improvements (there was a LOT of room for it)... more memory, outdoor-friendly screens, better expandability, better form factor, faster processor, better battery life, etc.

So with each new release of another PPC, we more or less got baby-step improvements which has brought us to our current slew of PPCs which IMO are the best selection of PPCs we've ever had..

OTOH, Palm was the opposite of PPC, it didn't need improvement to its current design as much as it needed innovation... luckily, Sony came and provided that...

[heov]

about the flash rom thing- man, my graphing calculator had that a year before pocket pc did... The only obstacle @ that time was the size capacity versus cost - COST - that is all that was holding them back to use flash rom then; I personally don't see how flash rom was innovative. It was just a evolution from normal ROM, that wasn't that exciting... (and plus palm's had already had that tech)

I don't know about the first gen PPCs being innovative, except for the iPaq, as I think the first color Palm-size PCs was where the innovation was at.

Things I consider innovative in the PDA world:
-Sony clamshell/twist/keyboard design
-Biometrics in iPaq
-Zaurus pull down keyboard
-New Zaurus clamshell/hpc/pda hybrid thing (cl-700?)
-Sony introducing 320x320 transflective displays using pixel doubling (coming from a 160x160 grayscale device)
-Sony introducing MP3 to the palm platform (was considered "not needed," but they did anyway)
-iPaq sleeve concept

Things I don't consider innovative in the PDA world:
-flash rom
-reflective/transflective displays (i wouldn't consider OLED innovative either as that's the next "logical" step...)
-4" inch screen in Toshiba (this COULD be considered innovative in my book, just barely though)
-Dual slots
-Smaller size (only, not a radical new design)
-integrated wifi/bt

If you see my pattern, things such as integrated wifi/bt were bound to occur. They already had them in laptops, and eventually, they would lead their ways to Pocket PCs...

As for sony on the other hand- they try BRAND NEW STUFF that is unthought of in the PDA world, or almost anywhere else (as i mentioned)...

In addition, a great example of innovation would be the 17" powerbook and the second gen iMacs... Everyone knew that the iMacs were eventually going to get an LCD, but when apple showed us their design- it was totally unthought of. Had they released an iMac that looked like the first gen ones, except w/ a flat screen and thinner body, I would not conser that innovative.
As w/ the 17" powerbook- who would dare to try to release a 17" laptop? Sony topped off at 16" due to size/power, etc- but apple believed people want bigger (we'll see if they were right)
However, things like their FireWire 800 and slot loading superdrive in the laptops, i don't consider innovative because it was just a matter of time before our tech gets better.

Man, i'm tired ;)

Great discussion btw, no one has resorted to name calling yet :lol:

[heov]

A little OFF TOPIC from the Innovation war above, but why aren't there any "entertainment" pocket pcs out?

I think the em500 was the last one...

I'm taling about pure, entertainment oriented Pocket PCs w/ great button layout and awesome speaker- all current pocket pcs are consumer or enterprise things...

I know they can be used as entertainment devices, but one specifically designed as one would be great (for me at least, since mine is a deluxe gameboy and mp3 player :))

[Pony99CA]

Things I consider innovative in the PDA world:
-Sony clamshell/twist/keyboard design
-Biometrics in iPaq
-Zaurus pull down keyboard
-New Zaurus clamshell/hpc/pda hybrid thing (cl-700?)
-Sony introducing 320x320 transflective displays using pixel doubling (coming from a 160x160 grayscale device)
-Sony introducing MP3 to the palm platform (was considered "not needed," but they did anyway)
-iPaq sleeve concept

Even if I agreed with your premise, how can Sony "introducing" MP3s to Palm be innovative? MP3 players came to the Pocket PC first, right? The Palm zealots were the ones who said nobody needed that. I think Sony was just combining their expertise in consumer electronics with their realization that people did want multimedia on a hendheld device (thanks to the Pocket PC).

So while MP3 support might have been an innovation in the Palm area, they certainly didn't innovate in the PDA field (which is what your lead-in said). That would be like saying Palm-Size PCs were innovative because all of the Windows CE devices up to that point were clamshells, even though Palm had handheld devices for at least two years. Microsoft was simply responding to the success of Palm's form factor, not innovating.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

A little OFF TOPIC from the Innovation war above, but why aren't there any "entertainment" pocket pcs out?

I think the em500 was the last one...

I'm taling about pure, entertainment oriented Pocket PCs w/ great button layout and awesome speaker- all current pocket pcs are consumer or enterprise things...
It's not a Pocket PC, and it probably won't be a gaming device, but Microsoft and Intel are working on a video player that might be cool.

Steve

[heov]

Things I consider innovative in the PDA world:
-Sony clamshell/twist/keyboard design
-Biometrics in iPaq
-Zaurus pull down keyboard
-New Zaurus clamshell/hpc/pda hybrid thing (cl-700?)
-Sony introducing 320x320 transflective displays using pixel doubling (coming from a 160x160 grayscale device)
-Sony introducing MP3 to the palm platform (was considered "not needed," but they did anyway)
-iPaq sleeve concept

Even if I agreed with your premise, how can Sony "introducing" MP3s to Palm be innovative? MP3 players came to the Pocket PC first, right? The Palm zealots were the ones who said nobody needed that. I think Sony was just combining their expertise in consumer electronics with their realization that people did want multimedia on a hendheld device (thanks to the Pocket PC).

So while MP3 support might have been an innovation in the Palm area, they certainly didn't innovate in the PDA field (which is what your lead-in said). That would be like saying Palm-Size PCs were innovative because all of the Windows CE devices up to that point were clamshells, even though Palm had handheld devices for at least two years. Microsoft was simply responding to the success of Palm's form factor, not innovating.

Steve

exactly... it was innovative to the palm platform (in their own little world) because people, as you said, didn't care for mp3 at the time. Sony was then to actually introduce a PALM that was MAINLY focused towards entertainment.

BTW, about the second reply, what's not a pocket pc? I'm not talking about the sony at all... i'm just soley talking about pocket pcs... I guess i shouldn't have brought up that the discussion in the middle of another discussion.[/img]

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

A little OFF TOPIC from the Innovation war above, but why aren't there any "entertainment" pocket pcs out?

I think the em500 was the last one...

I'm taling about pure, entertainment oriented Pocket PCs w/ great button layout and awesome speaker- all current pocket pcs are consumer or enterprise things...
The EM-500 (and even E125) had the best buttons and D-Pads BAR NONE!! No one has come close since.

Someone needs to revisit what they did. With all the complaints now about D-Pads and mushy/stiff buttons, all the vendors need to do is visit those models as the ultimate.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

exactly... it was innovative to the palm platform (in their own little world) because people, as you said, didn't care for mp3 at the time. Sony was then to actually introduce a PALM that was MAINLY focused towards entertainment.
Well not only was it not expected... but to many, it was unfathomable that you could support digital music playback (for the record, it wasn't MP3 but MP3-converted-to-ATRAC). The Palm's "file" system combined with their slim memory just didn't invite thos possibilities.

While MP3 playback itself is nothing innovative, the ability to do it on a platform that provided such little space to acheive was an innovation in and of itself.

[heov]

http://www.brighthand.com/article/CES_Clie_NZ90

new pics and info...

WOW, this thing is HUGE!!!

calling it a "brick" is too easy on this thing...

This thing is a BIG BRICK...

[Janak Parekh]

It's up on sonystyle.com. Sony is playing a little cagey with the specs, calling the dimensions "Approx. 3 x 5 5/8 x 29/32 inches (projecting parts not included)", and it's a whopping 10.3 ounces. More of a bag unit than a pocket unit, in my opinion. I rest my case. ;)

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

It's up on sonystyle.com. Sony is playing a little cagey with the specs, calling the dimensions "Approx. 3 x 5 5/8 x 29/32 inches (projecting parts not included)", and it's a whopping 10.3 ounces. More of a bag unit than a pocket unit, in my opinion. I rest my case. ;)
WOW!! Does it come with a carrying handle?

[spursdude]

It's up on sonystyle.com. Sony is playing a little cagey with the specs, calling the dimensions "Approx. 3 x 5 5/8 x 29/32 inches (projecting parts not included)", and it's a whopping 10.3 ounces. More of a bag unit than a pocket unit, in my opinion. I rest my case. ;)
WOW!! Does it come with a carrying handle?

what about rolling wheels? :D

[rave]

The way they're going, I guess a DV-out add-on and a Tripod Cradle won't be too far away. :D

[spursdude]

There's a video from CES with a Sony guy handling the device - gives a good idea of the size, as well as some of its features.

I'm not sure if this link will work, but try going here (http://www.cnet.com/video/ces03/ando1.html) or here (http://www.cnet.com/video/ces03/redirect/ando1.html?tag=fd_vidcon).

Or, go to news.com, and "Sony clicks with new PDA" should be on the right-hand column somewhere on the page.

[Janak Parekh]

Thanks for the video link. I have to give my hand to Sony for their determination in pursuing the wireless imaging vision. They freely admit they're transforming the device from a PDA, to a "personal wireless imaging solution". Well, I will want to see how they evolve this down the road to make it more practical for everyone. In the meantime, I'm probably sticking with my Pocket PC. :)

--janak

[heov]

The way they're going, I guess a DV-out add-on and a Tripod Cradle won't be too far away. :D

It already has video out ;)

[Pony99CA]

BTW, about the second reply, what's not a pocket pc? I'm not talking about the sony at all... i'm just soley talking about pocket pcs... I guess i shouldn't have brought up that the discussion in the middle of another discussion.

That second reply was to your second post about an entertainment Pocket PC. I said that Intel and Microsoft were coming out with a device to play video, but it's not a Pocket PC and probably won't play games.

Check out this story about the Personal Video Player (http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,426323,00.asp).

If by "entertainment" you meant games, then it probably won't be what you want.

Steve

[Palm Cow]

I must admit that it IS large, but Sony isn't all-large. I would like to inform you that they got a LOT into the NZ90 (not NX90), even if it is large. Sony has also cranked out the lower-end SJ series, which are very small. I even own an SJ20, the B/W model with a white backlight. Meh, it's pretty good! DON'T bash Palm OS, what's so dang wrong with it? I'm trying to aproach this with an equal attitude...I don't bash PPCs at PIC, so you shouldn't bash Palm OS here. GOD! Anyhow, the NZ90 is huge. Very huge. But what do you expect? :twisted: :twisted:

[thepalmdefender]

the nz90 isnt much bigger then ppcs and loook how much it has. Not to mention a far faster and more practical os.

[T-Will]

palm vs. pocket pc blah blah blah :roll:

[EricMCarson]

the nz90 isnt much bigger then ppcs and loook how much it has. Not to mention a far faster and more practical os.

How in the world are you defining practical? Does practical mean crippled to you? Or maybe it means "no ability to access the file system and store files in a reasonable manner." Maybe you're thinking of an os that still can't properly multitask, even on the fifth iteration? I've tried your more "practical" os and can't see anything that would make me even consider switching back.

[spursdude]

palm vs. pocket pc blah blah blah :roll:

LOL my thoughts exactly....

[thepalmdefender]

hmmm when i think of an os that cant properly multi task i think of PPC2002. THAT is freakin sad. At least palm os doesnt slow down over time and need to be hard reset

[spursdude]

hmmm when i think of an os that cant properly multi task i think of PPC2002. THAT is freakin sad. At least palm os doesnt slow down over time and need to be hard reset

You're definitely entitled to your opinions here. However, I would disagree. One fundamental difference is that PPC's OS supports multitasking - as the better hardware comes (and it comes quickly), it'll do the job better and better. Palm will have to wait for a new OS before it can make any significant advancements in the multitasking field.

Also, speaking from experience, my PPC only slows up while multitasking when WMP is playing music. I don't really mind this, considering that my older desktop computer at 450mhz and 384MB RAM would sometimes slow up playing music...

And I've only done a hard reset, and that was when I was an absolute idiot and thought the problem could be solved by a hard reset, when it was just a mislinked shortcut (i'm not proud of that day :D )

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

hmmm when i think of an os that cant properly multi task i think of PPC2002. THAT is freakin sad. At least palm os doesnt slow down over time and need to be hard reset
When I think of an OS that can't play MP3s, I think of Palm OS5.

What's your point?

[Ed Hansberry]

You're definitely entitled to your opinions here. However, I would disagree. One fundamental difference is that PPC's OS supports multitasking - as the better hardware comes (and it comes quickly), it'll do the job better and better. Palm will have to wait for a new OS before it can make any significant advancements in the multitasking field.

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/troll.jpg :lol:

[T-Will]

Like I said, Palm vs. Pocket PC blah blah blah...that's all I hear... :roll: :roll: :roll: (super rolling eyes)

[thepalmdefender]

hmm... os5 plays mp3's. unfortunatly with the licening on the kernal that palmos is built on top of they arent allowed to release the api for multitasking without paying high royaltees. IMHO they should et a better contract or a different kernal, but hey,someone will licience those api's sooner or later

BTW love the dont feed the troll thingy, we got a ppc troll at our palm board that has 1,000+ posts :( (dont worry i wont leech it, im not like that)

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

hmm... os5 plays mp3's. unfortunatly with the licening on the kernal that palmos is built on top of they arent allowed to release the api for multitasking without paying high royaltees. IMHO they should et a better contract or a different kernal, but hey,someone will licience those api's sooner or later

BTW love the dont feed the troll thingy, we got a ppc troll at our palm board that has 1,000+ posts :( (dont worry i wont leech it, im not like that)
If your first two posts had the reasoning of this last one, you wouldn't have been labeled a Troll. BTW, you've picqued my curiosity. Are you saying that the Palm OS5 is based on a kernel that doesn't belong to Palm and thus, a 3rd party charges royalties when trying to access multi-tasking related APIs?

[thepalmdefender]

http://oasis.palm.com/dev/kb/faq/1053.cfm
(that has gotton harder to find)

That explains a little about the kernal licienceing on palmos and palmos' rom. IMHO they are getting screwed with the terms of that but hey, maybe they like wasting time developing on something like that. Some compaines must have liecenceed it becuase there are programs like netmite audio player that will multi task.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Hmmm... interesting... if a 3rd party vendor does get permission to use these APIs, will this invalidate support from Palm similar to the way Hackmaster would in the old days?

[Ed Hansberry]

http://oasis.palm.com/dev/kb/faq/1053.cfm
(that has gotton harder to find)

yeah, they don't like to advertise someone else did the legwork for them, but I thought that was purely OS4 - which I presume would include the OS4 emulator in OS5. Still, doesn't explain why OS5 can't do it. Sony does. Given Palm has said OS6 will multitask, I think OS5 is Palm's own and has nothing to do with Kadak.[/quote]

[Pony99CA]

http://www.pocketpcthoughts.com/images/troll.jpg :lol:
I love how ThePalmDefender's member status is listed as "Troll". :rofl:

Steve

[thepalmdefender]

http://oasis.palm.com/dev/kb/faq/1053.cfm
(that has gotton harder to find)

yeah, they don't like to advertise someone else did the legwork for them, but I thought that was purely OS4 - which I presume would include the OS4 emulator in OS5. Still, doesn't explain why OS5 can't do it. Sony does. Given Palm has said OS6 will multitask, I think OS5 is Palm's own and has nothing to do with Kadak.

excellent point actually, if i want to obtain OS5 ROM files i can just download them, where if i want the os 4.1 ones i have to be a member. and originally when i became a member i had to fax them a signed doc saying that they were (c) etc etc. i bet that had something to do with that kadak engine thing.

Oh yea, wouldnt a troll be someone who goes into every single thred saying palmos rules ppc sux0rs...... thoguh my 1st two posts werent of al to high quality i must admit. and i do find my status (troll) very amusing ;)

[Bosco]

I'm a frequent poster at Palm Infocenter. I'm biased towards Palm OS. I have an NX70v. I'm not a fan of PPC, but I'm open to all ideas. Just thought you might like to know these facts before I post anything. Here goes...

How in the world are you defining practical? Does practical mean crippled to you? Or maybe it means "no ability to access the file system and store files in a reasonable manner." Maybe you're thinking of an os that still can't properly multitask, even on the fifth iteration? I've tried your more "practical" os and can't see anything that would make me even consider switching back.

It's always fun reading PPC Zealots stumbling over their own words whenever they don't have an answer to a new product with a platform they don't support due to insecurity that their platform of choice just may not be the best choice out there. Even EdH's article on the so called "PPC Simplicity" sounds like he's trying to convince himself, even when comparing a 3955 to AN M100. Multitasking is possible on the NX70v, my personal PDA of choice. I can readily do it. I can switch back and forth from an IM client to an internet browser to Docs To Go with a virtual graffiti calculator doing some calculations, all while I'm playing music in the background. There's not so much as a hiccup coming from slowdown, either. Even if you don't feel like switching back out to the launcher to enter another program, you can always map one of the four buttons to switch directly to another application. Simplicity doesn't mean something that can't do advanced applications. Bias in comparing two items isn't the best way to look at it either. I'll admit, I'm Palm OS biased, but not to the point where it clouds my vision.

Now, let's get back on topic. I see some people say this thing is a brick, it's a big brick, it's a bigger brick, it's the biggest brick they've ever seen, etc. But wait a minute... what does the PPC line have in response to this? The iPaq is almost as thick as this, and the NX/NZ include two extra walls! Anything with a built-in camera? You need an expansion card. Anything with a 320x480 screen? This has Bluetooth, the option for Wifi, a 320x480 screen with virtual graffiti, a 2 MP camera, removable battery, backlit keyboard, and is only as big as the CF slot on the NX all the way around. It's not even a full inch thick, and it's got everything you could ever ask for in a PDA. There's even that removable battery PPC Zealots are always screaming about at Palms. Battery life is said to be the same as the NX. Comparing this to something in the PPC line is absurd. The NZ90 is more looking into something more along the lines of "Laptop Replacement".

I don't get it, how can somebody criticize a device, say the PPC line is better, but not have a response to the device with the product line they say is much better?

Come on, nothing is this feature packed. This is above and beyond any PDA out there today. Oh but wait, it can't do a VPN Client. It must suck then, I guess. :roll:

In response to the inability to multitask, let me walk you through a little something that the NX70v is capable of; I can be listening to an MP3 in the background, tap the Date Book hardware button which switches me directly to NetFront, which activates my Wifi Card connected to my cable home network, which makes the handheld display the home page I have set... I can browse around for a while, all while listening to MP3's, then switch to AIM with the tap of the Address Book button, talk with up to 20 people in 20 IM sessions, switching from session to session in one tap, all while still being connected to Wifi and listening to my MP3 list. While I'm in the middle of having an active Wifi connection and talking to 20 people on AIM, I tap the To-Do list button, which then takes me to Documents To Go Premium Edition 5.0, enter into a Word Document I have been working on, write some things using the built-in keyboard all while maintaining an active Wifi connection that didn't close the internet or my IM sessions or my MP3 list, when I realize that I need to do a calculation with a calculator. No worry, I simply tap the silkscreenchanger, select the silk calculator tool, do the calculation I need in the graffiti area, enter it into the Word document, and all is well. So that makes an active Wifi connection to the internet and 20 IM sessions simultaneously, an MP3 player in the background, Word Document, and calculator all going at the same time. I then tap the Address Book button again, which switches me to AIM, and resume my chatting. Who needs true multitasking? I've got no overhead this way, and it's as efficient as it gets.

I don't consider this post a troll post. I consider this a response to misinformation. Feel free to comment.

[Ed Hansberry]

Multitasking is possible on the NX70v, my personal PDA of choice. I can readily do it. I can switch back and forth from an IM client to an internet browser to Docs To Go with a virtual graffiti calculator doing some calculations, all while I'm playing music in the background.
No you can't. Go online and buy something at Amazon. Get 75% though the order process then look up your Amazon password in your ewallet type app. Now IM someone. Now go back to the browser. Ooops! Lost your place didn't you? Wait - your IM connection got dropped. Now open the Clie paint app. Draw a line and switch to calculater. Ooops! You must save the file first or abandon it.

The music is multitasking. Sony put in a secondary digital processor to handle the music for you.

Stick your NX70 in the cradle and while hotsyncing, open up a web page or check your calendar.

[thepalmdefender]

actually stuff saves when you exit (such as clie paint) so that wouldnt happen. now the webbrowser im not sure since i dont hev an os5 pda. and i believe that the aim connection DOESNT drop, but you cant see when you get an im(bad imho).

[Bosco]

Come on Ed H, the music is multitasking without overhead!

First of all, it doesn't drop your IM sessions. Like I stated above, your IM sessions will be saved if you exit the application without signing off. Your Wifi connection will remain active. Same applies for a web browser. Your place doesn't get lost if the connection remains active, and if I'm not mistaken, this was addressed in OS 4 because my OS 3.5.3 m105 can't do it, but my OS 5.0 NX can. Oh, and you don't need to save or delete the file in CliePaint (not in the NX, you must be referring to PhotoEditor or ClieMemo). It will save your place, even if you exit the application, turn the device off, leave it off for three days, turn it on, enter the ClieMemo application, you'll see your beautiful line on the screen. Oh, and I don't even need to switch to the calculator. Remember, virtual graffiti area? Silkscreen calculators have been around. Even still, I can tap the calculator button and that line will still be there when I get back to the application.

About the cradle and hotsyncing and web browsing... that's just a silly idea. I know, I know, accuse me for saying "Who would need that?" but it applies this time. You've got a perfectly good desktop or laptop RIGHT THERE that you're hotsyncing to. Why not multitask the computer right next to you instead of the PDA? Oh, and I CAN check my calendar while hotsyncing. It's called the calendar silkskin. It displays all of your appointments for the day in the graffiti area of any application. Hotsyncing, web browsing, taking a photo, anything.

Full blown multitasking doesn't have many advantages to this type of multitasking.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Now, let's get back on topic. I see some people say this thing is a brick, it's a big brick, it's a bigger brick, it's the biggest brick they've ever seen, etc. But wait a minute... what does the PPC line have in response to this? The iPaq is almost as thick as this, and the NX/NZ include two extra walls! Anything with a built-in camera? You need an expansion card. Anything with a 320x480 screen? This has Bluetooth, the option for Wifi, a 320x480 screen with virtual graffiti, a 2 MP camera, removable battery, backlit keyboard, and is only as big as the CF slot on the NX all the way around.
First let me say that there are many things I envy about the NX/NZ line of PDAs. Love the resolution. Love the Office documents support through Docs2Go program. 2MP means you can print clear 4x5 pictures. Love the overall innovations Sony has put into this.

BUT most of the complaints people have stated about this device has related to size, price, or both. You mention the size of the iPaq and I point to the fact that the majority of this board are now looking for devices that are smaller or better equipped (Dell is of comparable size but has both SD and CF). Many in fact do complain that both devices are too big for their needs. As for price, VERY few people are willing to spend $800 on a PDA, especially one requiring the use of MemorySticks or supporting WiFi through Sony proprietary WiFi cards. I've actually seen quite a number of posters say they would have bought Sony already had it not been for these Sony-proprietary requirements (especially with MemStick).

Overall, I'd say those remarks sound quite legit to me.

I don't consider this post a troll post. I consider this a response to misinformation. Feel free to comment.
No, this wasn't a troll post, but it was highly presumptuous IMO.

I've visited a few Palm boards in the past few months and was embarassed at the PPC wackos making idiots out of themselves trying to slam the Palm just for the sake of it. Please don't assume we're all the same way here.

[Ed Hansberry]

actually stuff saves when you exit (such as clie paint) so that wouldnt happen..
Doesn't on the Clie 660 here, or whatever the number is. Not my device.

[thepalmdefender]

try using a newer different version(if available)... or use tealpaint, someone i know has a clie with clie paint and it saves on exit (actually it just enters the prog in the exact same place you left).

[Ed Hansberry]

Come on Ed H, the music is multitasking without overhead!
Well of course it is, there is another processor in there. Makes it more efficient than all the desktops in the world with those puny 3GHz P4 processors. :roll:

About the cradle and hotsyncing and web browsing... that's just a silly idea. I know, I know, accuse me for saying "Who would need that?" but it applies this time.
Well, the guy developing web pages that he wants to make sure are formatted correctly for a PDA would want it. I also ActiveSync in the background via VPN over WiFi and can browse the web while doing so. That was just one example. Editing music playlists on the device while syncing over tons of music. No, scratch that - you only have 128MB of storage. ;-) You get the point. I use my iPAQ while ActiveSYnc is going all of the time - either in the cradle or remotely.

As for the other things you mentioned - those are cool, but limited to Sony, which means it has nothing to do with Palm, it has to do with Sony going to extraordinary lengths to get around PalmOS limitations. The Treo drops IM connections and doesn't have the sony silksscreen with the calendar hack for looking at while docked. Can you pull up email on the device in the silkscreen?

And I just checked - Clie Paint - this time on a Sony SJ20. Edit the image and press HOME and it says you must save or abandon before you can switch out.

[thepalmdefender]

I've visited a few Palm boards in the past few months and was embarassed at the PPC wackos making idiots out of themselves trying to slam the Palm just for the sake of it. Please don't assume we're all the same way here.

that is why i decided to try and come here personally, so i could participate in palm vs ppc discussions with people that arent completely one sided. impossible with the ppc trolls on the palm forums... :( Hopefully this site will be better for these discussions.

[Bosco]

Okay, I can understand writing something about the Palm OS through your own experiences, but please, the N610c/N710c/N760c are ages old. They've gone from OS 3.5/4.1 to 5.0 now and the applications have been updated countless times (remember, we're talking about Sony :D )

Ekkie, I completely understand your point of view. My original comment came from resentment of my platform/PDA of choice in the way that I saw some people laughing at its size, and then going on and on about how the PPC line is so much better. Come on, unless the PPC line as a direct response to this, much less something that competes, you really can't compare it. Yes, I agree, it's huge. But come on, don't say PPC is better just because it's smaller and has SOME of the same features. That's like saying the m505 is 20 times better than the Axim because it's thinner and has a color screen and expansion slot like the Axim. They really are uncomparable for a variety of reasons, and the same thing applies in comparing the NZ to other products.

Yes, I've realized only a select few PPC Zealots troll on POS boards (ugh, what a nightmare at PIC) and it's very irritating. I must admit, it turned me further away from PPC OS than anything else.

I'm glad we can remain friendly here. Remember, my goal here is to simply correct some misguided information, nothing more. Hey, if I can get a few converts, I won't complain! 8)

"No, scratch that - you only have 128MB of storage. You get the point. I use my iPAQ while ActiveSYnc is going all of the time - either in the cradle or remotely."

Wait a second! The 1 GB Memory Sticks ARE here! They're fully compatible with the NX and NZ series (but none others :().

Edit: I forgot to address this... Hotsync is VERY fast. Trust me, you won't be waiting long if you're expecting some email. A full backup of data, AvantGo, picture syncing, etc takes around 20 seconds to 1 minute. No, you can't do it while it's hotsyncing, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on this one. But keep in mind, Hotsync is VERY fast these days...

"As for the other things you mentioned - those are cool, but limited to Sony, which means it has nothing to do with Palm, it has to do with Sony going to extraordinary lengths to get around PalmOS limitations. The Treo drops IM connections and doesn't have the sony silksscreen with the calendar hack for looking at while docked. Can you pull up email on the device in the silkscreen?"

Yes, I agree, most of them are limited to Sony. That's why I bought the Sony! My point here is that the CAPABILITY is there, not that all devices have it mandatory. That's why Palm OS can still get by with a 16 MHz processor as the minimum when compared to 200 MHz on the PPC now.

"And I just checked - Clie Paint - this time on a Sony SJ20. Edit the image and press HOME and it says you must save or abandon before you can switch out."

I understand, but try something on the NX ROM if it's available to you. It comes with Photo Editor and Clie Memo, both of which remain in the same sheet when you exit and re-enter.

[Ed Hansberry]

Okay, I can understand writing something about the Palm OS through your own experiences, but please, the N610c/N710c/N760c are ages old. They've gone from OS 3.5/4.1 to 5.0 now and the applications have been updated countless times (remember, we're talking about Sony :D )
THAT'S my point. You are talking about Sony, and $500 ones to boot. I am talking about PalmOS.

[Ed Hansberry]

Yes, I agree, most of them are limited to Sony. That's why I bought the Sony! My point here is that the CAPABILITY is there, not that all devices have it mandatory. That's why Palm OS can still get by with a 16 MHz processor as the minimum when compared to 200 MHz on the PPC now.
Come on... you are suggesting all that stuff crammed into the NZ/NX would work on a 16MHz dragonball?

I am not going to argue that the SOny isn't the ultimate Palm PDA. It is, no question. But they have really bent the rules to get it to do those things... which brings me back to where I came in on this discussion. Why did sony bother with the Palm OS and then hack the heck out of it rather than not just start with the Pocket PC OS? It wasn't technical. Purely political. It is those features in the Pocket PC (dating from April 2000 for many, and mid-1998 for others in the Palm-sized PC) that is pushing Sony to do them.

And when I wrote my original article, the NZ didn't exist and the NX still couldn't even run Avantgo. Still can't AFAIK - though I know a beta just went out a few days ago.

[Bosco]

Understandable, but keep in mind OS 5 is still new, as well as most of the software Sony integrated. Yes, Palm OS in general is very different. Palm OS really was never designed to become this intricate, but the option was always there for it. Now that the market demands it, it's possible, and I'm happy with the results, especially my NX. I'm looking forward to seeing the NZ90, and I'm interested in trying out the Picsel viewer (native Word, Excel, and PPT file viewer) that I hear so many people complain about the lack of that in Palm OS.

As PPC OS approaches Palm OS, Palm OS approaches PPC OS.

Glad we can keep this civil. :)

[Bosco]

Yes, I agree, most of them are limited to Sony. That's why I bought the Sony! My point here is that the CAPABILITY is there, not that all devices have it mandatory. That's why Palm OS can still get by with a 16 MHz processor as the minimum when compared to 200 MHz on the PPC now.
Come on... you are suggesting all that stuff crammed into the NZ/NX would work on a 16MHz dragonball?

I am not going to argue that the SOny isn't the ultimate Palm PDA. It is, no question. But they have really bent the rules to get it to do those things... which brings me back to where I came in on this discussion. Why did sony bother with the Palm OS and then hack the heck out of it rather than not just start with the Pocket PC OS? It wasn't technical. Purely political. It is those features in the Pocket PC (dating from April 2000 for many, and mid-1998 for others in the Palm-sized PC) that is pushing Sony to do them.

And when I wrote my original article, the NZ didn't exist and the NX still couldn't even run Avantgo. Still can't AFAIK - though I know a beta just went out a few days ago.

Yes, I've been using the latest beta for almost two months now. It's near perfect and almost ready to release, I'm happy to say.

About Sony not choosing PPC OS, I'm guessing because what they were envisioning was new ground for Palm OS. In the PPC market, they would be just another one of the bunch. In the Palm OS market, they have a different set of features they can work with. I don't know the true reason, but my best guess is that they look like a bigger player in the Palm OS market with their feature set than with the PPC market.

Edit: Sorry, but I'm trying to rush to get these replies out the door. I forgot to talk about the 16 MHz thing. What I'm implying is that PalmSource didn't make multimedia and glamor built into the OS so that they can make the lowest end devices and cheap devices with less specs that still run fast without the flair. Try running a PPC at 16 MHz :). Sure, the feature set is better, but that's what I'm trying to say. Those features aren't mandatory in the Palm OS, but the opportunity for it is there. That's ALL I was trying to say there and I'm sorry for the confusion.

[Ed Hansberry]

That's ALL I was trying to say there and I'm sorry for the confusion.
No prob. Confusion helps when coming to this (or any other tech) board. :wink:

[Pony99CA]

In response to the inability to multitask, let me walk you through a little something that the NX70v is capable of; I can be listening to an MP3 in the background, tap the Date Book hardware button which switches me directly to NetFront, which activates my Wifi Card connected to my cable home network, which makes the handheld display the home page I have set... I can browse around for a while, all while listening to MP3's, then switch to AIM with the tap of the Address Book button, talk with up to 20 people in 20 IM sessions, switching from session to session in one tap, all while still being connected to Wifi and listening to my MP3 list. While I'm in the middle of having an active Wifi connection and talking to 20 people on AIM, I tap the To-Do list button, which then takes me to Documents To Go Premium Edition 5.0, enter into a Word Document I have been working on, write some things using the built-in keyboard all while maintaining an active Wifi connection that didn't close the internet or my IM sessions or my MP3 list, when I realize that I need to do a calculation with a calculator. No worry, I simply tap the silkscreenchanger, select the silk calculator tool, do the calculation I need in the graffiti area, enter it into the Word document, and all is well. So that makes an active Wifi connection to the internet and 20 IM sessions simultaneously, an MP3 player in the background, Word Document, and calculator all going at the same time. I then tap the Address Book button again, which switches me to AIM, and resume my chatting. Who needs true multitasking? I've got no overhead this way, and it's as efficient as it gets.

I'm curious what happens to those 20 AIM sessions while you're using another application. What happens if someone sends you an IM while you're not using AIM?

On the Pocket PC, I'll hear a sound (assuming sounds are enabled) when the IM arrives, and I can switch back to AIM to read it.

Steve

[Janak Parekh]

I'm curious what happens to those 20 AIM sessions while you're using another application. What happens if someone sends you an IM while you're not using AIM?

On the Pocket PC, I'll hear a sound (assuming sounds are enabled) when the IM arrives, and I can switch back to AIM to read it.
Indeed, this is my major, major problem with the lack of multitasking support. Whenever I'm on the wireless network in a meeting with my PPC, I'll first fire up MSN Messenger. I'll then launch a webbrowser, but I can still receive messages at the same time. That's multitasking.

Regarding the Pocket PC camp not having any equivalent: let's see if the market wants this, first. I think this is a worthwhile first-generation experiment, but at what point does one go too far in convergence? I honestly don't know, yet.

--janak

[Bosco]

Yes. Notice before I put "...doesn't have MANY advantages to this type of multitasking." and this is one big advantage full multitasking support has. Still, I can receive messages from those 20 people while I'm on my web browser, but I just won't be notified until I enter back into the application. I believe this feature can actually be implemented into the AIM application in the same way an alarm can interrupt with a popup whatever application you're currently in. I'm thinking something like a small toolbar at the bottom stating who just IMed you and if you tap it, it'll take you back to the AIM application and to the message. It would definitely be handy, but we have to wait for AOL's beta program to implement it. :roll: Hopefully it becomes a reality.

Still, when I'm in the AIM or AOL application, I can be notified of incoming messages by a little icon at the top right corner notifying me of a new message and if I tap it, it takes me to the message. Good notification feature, but like I said, it'd be great if it would notify all the time.

But either way, IMO, the NX's type of multitasking is superior to the PPC's type of multitasking. But that's just for my individual needs. I have no problem with tapping the Address Book button every minute or so while I'm in another application to check if I received a message and then tap back to resume working. I'd like it more if it would notify me in another application, but it's not crucial for me. YMMV.

[Ed Hansberry]

But either way, IMO, the NX's type of multitasking is superior to the PPC's type of multitasking. But that's just for my individual needs. I have no problem with tapping the Address Book button every minute or so while I'm in another application to check if I received a message and then tap back to resume working. I'd like it more if it would notify me in another application, but it's not crucial for me. YMMV.

Let's bookmark this page. I'll bet money that when OS6 is released, Sony will have PPC/Windows/OSX/Linux style multitasking, not hacked up Palm style multisimulation.

[Janak Parekh]

Yes. Notice before I put "...doesn't have MANY advantages to this type of multitasking."
Yes, and no. Knowing you have the power enables you to do more, at least in my case. Another example: I get a lot of email, so checking it over a GPRS connection takes time. I just fire up the Inbox app, start downloading my email, and switch to organizer programs, IM, or the web. No problem, works perfectly, I check my mail in a couple minutes. Or if a webpage is slow, I pop up a new one or start something else. etc. Having that ability "opens your horizons", IMHO, and after a while, especially if you do multiple online tasks, you wonder how you got along without it. :)

I end up running 5-6 programs when I'm in meetings (note taking/word processing, email, AIM, tasks, PIE for example). I have had no problems with speed (with the possible exception of ThunderHawk, which is a beast and slows down the unit substantially while running in the background.) Except for starting Pocket Informant, I find the performance to mirror my old Palm unit, except for the fact that I don't have to close one app to open another.

In other words, I respectfully disagree ;) And Ed's point is worth backing up: most modern OS kernels have moved to a preemptive multitasking model. Palm will do the same once the BeOS bits are merged in. Windows was once "cooperative" (which is one notch above what the Palm supports), back in the 2.x and 3.x days, and it really sucked.

--janak

[Bosco]

Palm will do the same once the BeOS bits are merged in.

Actually, BeOS has already been at PalmSource. There's plenty of them on the board, or so I've heard. I believe they already helped create OS 5, and continued with 5.1 and the newly released 5.2.

Way ahead of ya. I bookmarked this page a while back. 8)

Another thing I've heard is that as of thus far, there's no plans for multitasking in OS 6, but I think that's got a big chance of changing, and I expect it to change. As long as PalmSource provides an easy way to switch through applications and reducing overhead from app to app, I'll be a happy guy. And since PalmSource made virtual graffiti a built-in solution in 5.2... I'm guessing toolbar underneath the graffiti area, but I'm not crazy about the idea... too Windozey.

BTW - I just noticed something.

http://kempokaraterulz.ip2dns.org/uploads/abosco/screen03%20number2.JPG

Next time I can hook up my NX to Wifi again, I'm checking to see if AIM 1.1 does this. That's a direct screenshot from my NX with the graffiti area cut out.

[Ed Hansberry]

Palm will do the same once the BeOS bits are merged in.

Actually, BeOS has already been at PalmSource. There's plenty of them on the board, or so I've heard. I believe they already helped create OS 5, and continued with 5.1 and the newly released 5.2.

Way ahead of ya. I bookmarked this page a while back. 8)

Another thing I've heard is that as of thus far, there's no plans for multitasking in OS 6, but I think that's got a big chance of changing, and I expect it to change.
BeOS guys got there too late to do much in OS5. I can't find a direct link on the multitasking in OS6 but there have been serveral references that OS6 would finally expose the multithreading API to developers. There is some info at http://www.brighthand.com/article/First_OS_6_Details but nothing directly on multitasking.

Oh - here - http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/archive/27855.html - no way the OS described there won't be multithreaded, just as the BeOS was. OS5 the stepping stone, the intermediary OS helping developers get their act together.

[Bosco]

Let's review:

People are calling the NZ90 bad because it's thick. Yes, it's thick, but it has enough features to surpass the PDA market and enter into the "mini-laptop" market. I got pissed off because people were saying the PPC line was a better choice, failing to recognize that the PPC market doesn't have anything that combats this device. Not even anything with a built-in 320x240 camera, which Sony did ages ago (NR70v). That was my original intention in this thread.

My intention changed.

It's now to show you (PPCT members in general) that Palm OS has evolved since OS 3.5. I'm running an ARM processor off X-Scale, you're running an ARM processor off X-Scale. You can fully multitask, I can multitask without overhead. To simply go at this problem by comparing, oh I don't know, a 3955 to an m100, let's say, is ignorant to the fact that the Palm OS has evolved. Would it be fair to compare an NX70v to a 3600 series iPaq? No, so compare the latest and greatest to the latest and greatest. Analogy: PC's are so much better than Macs because my Dell Dimension 8200 is so much better than my Apple Power Macintosh 7600/132. :roll: (note for the slow: the Mac is seven years old)

So the thread went from how fat the NZ90 is to why the PPC lineup is a better choice to why the NZ90 can't be compared with PPC's. Next stop, multitasking on Palm OS 5.

It's possible. There's instances of full multitasking, such as the MP3 player in the background, semi-multitasking, as in having AIM instant messages being accepted through an active Wifi connection but being held in the program, and then there's quiet multitasking, as in keeping a file in ClieMemo active without having to save it, but it's right there when you enter back into the application. On a PPC, if you want to multitask, you've got one kind, full overhead. Now, while this may be good if you want to receive IM's while in another application, it's my opinion that it's not worth it because of the overhead caused. The disadvantages outweigh the advantages, one of which being able to receive IM's in another application (which I'm trying to find out if AIM 1.1 does) and the other is having the ability to say, "My PDA can multitask!"

Then, we went onto if OS 6 will have support for full multitasking or not.

Yes, it's all but evident OS 6 will have full multitasking, but there's still a fraction of a chance it won't have it. Even if it does have it, I'm expecting PalmSource to come out with something that's a better idea than a Windoze task bar. I'd stick with OS 5 if it reminds me too much of Windows, thank you very much.

So that's what's been discussed in this thread. The main question that I'm puzzled with and left pondering is this: What are the true advantages of the PPC that the Palm OS really can't do?

Multitasking is available on the Palm OS. Screens are at a higher resolution and just as colorful and bright. The days of the m505 are past. 3D games and in-depth applications are here. The OS doesn't come with built-in flashiness, but there are plenty of third-party launchers that do it enough to make an iPaq user jealous.

Here’s a little screenie of my current launcher:

http://kempokaraterulz.ip2dns.org/uploads/abosco/screen04.jpg

Think about this the next time you want to complain about the “lack of flashiness” on the Palm OS.

Where's the PPC equivalent to the Zire? The most important aspect of the market, the entry-level, PPC is left gasping for air at $199 where Palm is sitting at $99 and able to go down as low as possibly $50 with their Zire. On the complete opposite end, there's the NX70v, NZ90, and T|T. Extraordinary features that come with extraordinary processors and extraordinary price tags. Sure, you (Ed H) accuse the Palm OS as being simple and that users have tons and tons of hacks in their Palms to make it do more advanced things, but there's one thing that I should bring to your attention. Palm OS 5 doesn't support previous hacks. The only one that works is ScreenShot Hack, and that isn't even really a hack! Sure, accuse Sony of hacking up the Palm OS, but they've merely taken advantage of what PalmSource has given them. This isn’t something Sony dreamed up overnight. They’re using Palm OS 5 the way it was meant to be used. The NX and NZ are full multimedia oriented PDA’s and do it better than ANY PDA on the market today. If you fail to recognize Sony’s intention to have multimedia and flash on top of simplicity on the Palm OS, you should consider seeing an optometrist.

I'm telling you, "Anything you can do I can do better! I can do anything better than you!" :wink:

So what’s my point in all of this and what’s the solution? First, my point is that there is no set device that is “better” than another device. Different needs for different people. This must be engraved in one another’s skull before anything can be accomplished. But if you’re willing to sit there and honestly say the PPC line is better than the Palm OS line simply because of the ways it multitasks, you better be able to back it up with some proof. Here’s my suggestion:

Write up another article comparing the latest in the PPC platform TO THE LATEST in the Palm OS platform. Sure, it’s a heavy task, but if you’re so confident that your platform of choice is so much better, you should be able to easily prove it without having to resort to tactics such as comparing a new high-end device (3955) to a low-end buck-naked old device (m100). Don’t neglect to mention the topics discussed in this thread, that is, if you’re really up for the job. :wink:

[Janak Parekh]

Bosco,

Have you used a Pocket PC for an extended period of time? Your discussion on multitasking smacks of a person who hasn't experienced full multitasking. You're trying to argue semantics; the Palm OS does not offer multitasking, with the one exception of MP3. Queued AIM doesn't cut it; I don't want to have to keep on switching to my IM client; I'd like it to pop-up. A number of us, including me, stated requirements of ours that require it. I also don't have these "overhead" problems you state - can you clarify? I multitask with little or no performance degradation, and this is 3-6 apps (see my previous post).

If your requirements are suited perfectly by the Palm OS, and you don't want to try a Pocket PC, so be it. Enjoy the device. The NZ90 is damn cool, and I'll admit it. But it's not going to be my next device. It's not a laptop replacement without true multitasking and a real filesystem throughout the device. If Palm OS 7 comes out on a NTWV9000 with everything in one piece, sure, maybe I'll go for it.

--janak

[Ed Hansberry]

Write up another article comparing the latest in the PPC platform TO THE LATEST in the Palm OS platform.
Another article? What was the first one that was on flashiness? I wrote one on simplicty, but never on mega-features. Had I done that, I would have gone into the integrated spell checker, terminal server client, native file system, built in spreadsheet, basic word processing, integrated ebook reader, VPN, TCP/IP stack, Pocket Internet Explorer, etc.

Then for third party apps, SpreadCE for a full featured spreadsheet, Textmaker as a full featured word processor, Citrix client for Citrix Servers, Pocket Mindmap, PowerCAD and PocketCAD for 3D and 2D CAD operations, Adobe Reader for the Pocket PC which allows you to open PDFs directly from the internet and email and reflow Adobe 5 tagged PDFs without a desktop, the Thunderhawk browser, etc. All on 64MB devices easily expandable with storage cards that seamlessly integrate into the file system.

Note - all of the above (except the 64MB - some Pocket PCs are only 32MB :wink: is available on every Pocket PC 2002 device. So, I can email an Excel spreadsheet to another Pocket PC user and know they will be able to open it. I can send a streaming WMA link via email to a Pocket PC user and know they can open and stream it. I can add an appointment to my calendar and "invite" someone via email and know that when they receive the email on their Pocket PC, they will be able to "Accept", "Reject" or Accept tentatively" the appointment and it will automatically show up on their calendar, adjusting for timezones automagically.

[Pony99CA]

Let me preface this by saying that the "fat Clie" looks very cool. I don't have anything against Palms; I just like the familiar Windows-style interface of the Pocket PC. That said, let's proceed to the fun parts.


It's possible. There's instances of full multitasking, such as the MP3 player in the background[....]

That is not what most people mean by "multi-tasking"; that's multi-processing -- using a second processor to run another task.


The OS doesn't come with built-in flashiness, but there are plenty of third-party launchers that do it enough to make an iPaq user jealous.

While your launcher is nice, I'm not "jealous" in any way.


Think about this the next time you want to complain about the “lack of flashiness” on the Palm OS.

Because one screen shot of a third-party application proves conclusively how flashy the Palm OS is. :roll:


Where's the PPC equivalent to the Zire?

You mean the black & white, non-backlit Pocket PC? Maybe you can get an iPAQ 3100 or a Palm-Sized PC for $99 on eBay. :-)


Sure, you (Ed H) accuse the Palm OS as being simple and that users have tons and tons of hacks in their Palms to make it do more advanced things, but there's one thing that I should bring to your attention. Palm OS 5 doesn't support previous hacks.

You're just trying to bring one thing to our attention? :roll:

By the way, I thought Palm was touted for being simple. Since when is simplicity an accusation?


Sure, accuse Sony of hacking up the Palm OS, but they've merely taken advantage of what PalmSource has given them. This isn’t something Sony dreamed up overnight. They’re using Palm OS 5 the way it was meant to be used.

How odd that Palm hasn't managed to do it, eh?


I'm telling you, "Anything you can do I can do better! I can do anything better than you!" :wink:

So what’s my point in all of this and what’s the solution? First, my point is that there is no set device that is “better” than another device. Different needs for different people. This must be engraved in one another’s skull before anything can be accomplished.

Hmmm, you're going from one extreme to another. Reread that first paragraph, then go back to that engraver and get your skull re-etched. :lol:

Call us biased, but this is a Pocket PC fan site. What do you expect?

Can somebody put that troll label back on? :twisted:

Steve

[Bosco]

Yes, I'm talking about the simplicity one. If you're going to talk about simplicity in advanced features, the m100 won't get the job done. An NX has just as much simplicity as the m100 with the more advanced features you'd expect from ARM and a more expensive device. It's simply not fair to compare a 3955 to an m100 and you know that, come on now.

No, I've never owned a PPC, but I have toyed with them plenty. I've been through the OS a few times and I found it silly compared to Palm OS. I'm actually pondering buying an Axim just for the hell of it so that once I fully understand ALL of the PPC's capabilities, I can have a nice bond-fire with the Axim's large body. :wink:

Granted, multitasking overhead varies from application to application and differs from device to device. I did not have a very pleasant experience with PPC's multitasking.

As for AIM, when I get a chance to try out AIM 1.1's multitasking ability to pop-up (first screenshot given) when a new IM comes through, I'll get back to you on that.

Ed, if you do go into those things, you can also go into the built-in spell checker of WordSmith, spreadsheets with Docs to Go and TinySheet with incredible resolutions on the 320x480 screens, free ebook reader with PalmReader, free integrated internet explorers through Web Pro or Blazer or NetFront, even free ones like AvantGo. Don't forget to mention the camera and video recorder functions of the NX70v and NZ90. Of course, most of these (Docs To Go, internet explorers) come as bundled software in a CD that can safely be stored on the card or in RAM. Then the NZ90 has the Picsel viewer for viewing of native Word, Excel, PPT, web pages, PDFs, and tons more so that once downloaded directly off Wifi or other non-desktop resource, it can be viewed directly on the handheld and also sent as an attachment. And of course, this is all EASILY stored on the card for extra storage in case the 16 MB isn't enough (come on, 16 MB gets much farther on Palm OS than PPC, give me that).

Yeah, you can gloat about how you can read, edit, and send native files from PPC to PPC, but if you only want to go PPC to PPC, then I can transfer a spreadsheet in Docs To Go to my handheld, make some changes, then send it on over to any other Palm OS handheld that has Docs To Go (Palms have the Professional Edition, Sonys have the Standard Edition), which can then open it, edit it, and send it right back. Then, once done with all that, you can sync it back up to your desktop back into its native form. Along with the Docs To Go format comes a much smaller file size. In most cases, the DTG file is half the size as the native file's equivalent. If you're talking desktop to Palm, Picsel Viewer comes into play.

The one thing I don't understand is this fuss with the file system. Since I don't really major in internal file organization, could someone explain this GRAVE importance that some people make it out to be? On Palm OS, if you put a file in RAM, the application goes in as well as any database files. If you decide to delete it, any associated database files are deleted as well, so you don't have to go hunting or digging for them. As for the Memory Stick, a third-party launcher, such as ZLauncher displays the MS like Windows Explorer would, folders and all. JPEGs in one folder, MP3's in another, movies here, applications there, etc. So what's this huge fuss all about?

One last thing I'd like to point out is this: Palm OS CAN multitask. Does the MP3 player not count or something? Is it cheating? Disqualified? What about the fact that I can draw a line in ClieMemo, enter directly into a web browser, browse around, IM someone through AIM, then go right back to that line I drew a minute ago? Does this also not count? Just because it's not full blown Windoze multitasking doesn't mean it's not multitasking.

[Pony99CA]

One last thing I'd like to point out is this: Palm OS CAN multitask. Does the MP3 player not count or something? Is it cheating? Disqualified? What about the fact that I can draw a line in ClieMemo, enter directly into a web browser, browse around, IM someone through AIM, then go right back to that line I drew a minute ago? Does this also not count? Just because it's not full blown Windoze multitasking doesn't mean it's not multitasking.
The MP3 player does not count because it's using a separate processor. That doesn't mean the OS is multitasking.

Drawing a line in one application, switching to another, then returning and not losing data doesn't count, either. That's simply saving the state of your application while you switch tasks -- in other words, task switching.

Multitasking requires a program in the background to continue running and actively working. For example, if you started a file search, then switched to another task, if the file search stopped until you returned to the search application, that's not multitasking -- that's single-tasking with task switching.

Steve

[Ed Hansberry]

One last thing I'd like to point out is this: Palm OS CAN multitask. Does the MP3 player not count or something? Is it cheating? Disqualified? What about the fact that I can draw a line in ClieMemo, enter directly into a web browser, browse around, IM someone through AIM, then go right back to that line I drew a minute ago? Does this also not count? Just because it's not full blown Windoze multitasking doesn't mean it's not multitasking.

http://oasis.palm.com/dev/kb/faq/1053.cfm

PalmOS is multitasking, in the same way that DOS was. When you are working, the clock is keeping time in the background. At best, the MP3 player is a TSR, complete with its own processor! You can't recieve IMs while doing other things, so that isn't multitasking. Even DeskView for DOS supported multitasking better than the Clie does. You can't sync email while writing in ClieMemo. You can't sync Avantgo while IMing, you can't let a search run in Pocket Bible while drawing in ClieMemo.
The Palm OS ROM is built with support for a very few tasks. There are only enough task slots for the ROM's needs. In order to support more tasks the ROM would need to be rebuilt.
So, the clock, a blinking cursor, alarm monitor, and the user process. That's about it.

[Bosco]

Because one screen shot of a third-party application proves conclusively how flashy the Palm OS is. :roll:

You mean the black & white, non-backlit Pocket PC? Maybe you can get an iPAQ 3100 or a Palm-Sized PC for $99 on eBay. :-)

By the way, I thought Palm was touted for being simple. Since when is simplicity an accusation?

How odd that Palm hasn't managed to do it, eh?

Call us biased, but this is a Pocket PC fan site. What do you expect?

Can somebody put that troll label back on? :twisted:

Nope, I wasn't the one with the troll label. Yes, I mean where is the basic PPC that stretches to the extreme basic market? The Zire is quite possibly the most successful PDA ever. Palm even reported that it is their most successful low-end model ever.

You may say I'm arguing that Palm OS isn't as simple as people make it out to be. Basically, that's not where I'm getting at. What I'm saying is that it has simplicity with the POSSIBILITY to add more advanced features. Palm didn't include some of the things Sony included because Palm didn't see the need for them, that's all. The only thing Sony hacked up was the virtual graffiti, and they've been doing that since the NR series with ease. It's not a daunting task, even HandEra did it two and a half years before anybody else thought about it.

Lastly, the beauty of flash not being in the OS itself is that it leaves room for third-party developers. PalmSource has always been smiled upon for their friendly openings for third-party developers while Microsoft has always been frowned on for their methods. Building a word processor and spreadsheet into the OS decreases sales of third-party examples of those apps dramatically because people don't see the need to buy them. These are things MICROSOFT does. PalmSource provides basic PIM apps and lets the hardware developers add things in at their own discretion.

Fine, put the troll label on me, but at least make it the "Enlightened" Troll. :twisted:

[Fishie]

Bosco, you are comparing the new Clie with PPC, something you shouldnt as the PPC is a fixed format with fixed res and OS etcetera while the sony uses a hacked PalmOS.
Now lets dig into the rest, built in camera you say?
My Intermec 6651 (Win CE 3.0, just like PPC ) has one, ok res is only 640by480 but still, we are talking about a device that was introduced as the sharp Telios 7000 almost 3 years ago.
Its got a 800 by 480 high res screen wich no Clie comes close to, the integrated camera, keyboard, tablet mode, CF and PCMCI slots, usb slot and a battery that lasts up to 10 houres.

Back to you Bosco.

[Bosco]

Are you referring to this?

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0-2709830-404-4772568.html

If so, please go back in the ditch you dug yourself into. Even CNet rates the battery life at horrid, coming in at 4 hours. Besides, it's got Windows CE as its OS. Not even PPC. Yikes.

Yes, it has all the features you mentioned, but you forgot to mention this little bit of information:

It's two pounds! The NZ90 is 10 ounces, and this thing is 30 ounces. Yeah, real comparable. How about I compare a laptop to that thing, etc. I know the NZ is a stretch to carry around all the time, but please, this thing is huge and a real brick. Buy a few of them (which costs $1500 each, might I add) and you can build a home.

Back to you, Fishie.

[Steven Cedrone]

Keep this debate civil please...

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Bosco]

Agreed, but I need to address one more issue. What exactly did Sony hack? Do you know, or are you just reciting what you've been hearing? The only thing Sony "hacked" was to get the virtual graffiti area onto the PalmSource OS 5 API. The rest is all available to do on Palm OS 5. Even now, if they create another unit with OS 5.2, the virtual graffiti area is built into the OS, so they don't even need to hack that. So I'm curious, what exactly did they hack?

The plot thickens.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

It's simply not fair to compare a 3955 to an m100 and you know that, come on now.
In talking about capabilities and horsepower, you're absolutely right... though there was (and still is) a place for both devices in the market.

Yeah, you can gloat about how you can read, edit, and send native files from PPC to PPC, but if you only want to go PPC to PPC, then I can transfer a spreadsheet in Docs To Go to my handheld, make some changes, then send it on over to any other Palm OS handheld that has Docs To Go (Palms have the Professional Edition, Sonys have the Standard Edition), which can then open it, edit it, and send it right back.
Love D2G!! I saw it in action on someone's Clie and was immediately jealous. But...

The one thing I don't understand is this fuss with the file system.
... what's this huge fuss all about?
...for me, there is a major convenience factor with having a fundamentally identical file system to what's run on everyone's laptops. If I'm creating a Word/Excel document on my PPC and someone needs a copy. No problem... just IR it from my PPC to their laptop. No conversions required and no need to return to my laptop to sync and then email it to them. From the opposite side, let's say I'm in a meeting and the presenter has a number of different files that he's been displaying. After the meeting, he can simply beam those files from his PC to my PPC. The file system allows my PPC to act as portable storage good with any PPC or PC device supporting IR. Want to back-up some critical directories of data on your laptop? Just copy it directly to my PPC and now I have a perfect backup with the folder structure and files intact (regardless of whether those files are functional in my PPC or not).

Another thing that comes to mind (and the Clie may be capable of this as well) is that I use my device for English, Thai, and Japanese. Transfer the necessary windows font files that support those languages and I now have a device capable of displaying files written in those languages within any app supporting custom fonts. Additionally with a SIP called JSKeyXTension, I can INPUT those foreign characters as well with a keyboard supporting GIF layouts that can display those characters on the keyboard.

Talking about music/audio capabilities. How about full flexibility in choosing between WAV, WMA, MP3, and the *even-better-and-upcoming* OGG without conversion. How about using any of those files for use as a wake-up alarm? How about the image viewing you mentioned. Sure... JPG, GIF, BMP, PNG, TIFF, PCX... just IR it to me and I can view it... got pictures in your digital camera? Using CF, SM, or SD? No problem, I've got adapters for all of them and my device can display those pics-on-the-fly directly from your media card.

You mentioned the major improvements from PalmOS 3.5 to the present version and the "flashiness" and I'll agree. I am somewhat ignorant of what the newer Palm-based devices can do, so my apologies ahead of time if I mentioned capabilities above that are easily supported by the Palm/Sony. I don't particulary care for flashy launchers, but with the improved OS and improved CPU power, it may only be a matter of time before we see some huge jumps in what a Palm can do. The line is beginning to blur and I certainly welcome more viable choices for my more-advanced-than-PIM requirements for a PDA.

[Bosco]

Understandable, but the MS on my Clie can act just like a Zip Drive would on a computer. Attach the Clie to the cradle and enter MS Import and the MS appears as a separate drive. Same thing with a MS reader. You can backup to your heart's content to the MS.

That's one fault of the Palm OS when it comes to Word and Excel, etc. If you want to go Palm to Palm, or desktop to Palm, now it's no problem. But if you want to go Palm to desktop, unless you have Docs To Go installed on that computer, forget it.

I'm not so sure about the other languages, though.

[Janak Parekh]

Agreed, but I need to address one more issue. What exactly did Sony hack? Do you know, or are you just reciting what you've been hearing? The only thing Sony "hacked" was to get the virtual graffiti area onto the PalmSource OS 5 API.
Not true. They changed the multimedia API to support the new DSP, and they're refusing to publish it. This is a big problem for me. I use Ogg heavily, and there's no Ogg player on Sony devices. The AeroPlayer (http://www.aerodromesoftware.com/) guys say as much (http://www.aerodromesoftware.com/clieusers.html).

That is the danger to having fragmented, nonstandard OS implementations all over the map. I hope, for everyone's sake, that Sony releases the specs and conforms to Palm standards in the future, assuming Palm APIs keep up.

--janak

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Understandable, but the MS on my Clie can act just like a Zip Drive would on a computer. Attach the Clie to the cradle and enter MS Import and the MS appears as a separate drive. Same thing with a MS reader. You can backup to your heart's content to the MS.
Is this "MS Import" a program resident on the Clie or on the PC? If on the Clie, are there any special drivers required on the PC?

While it may be nitpicky, part of my point was that I could do all of that file swapping with anyone's machine WITHOUT any dependence on special software/drivers or requiring a hardware device such as a cradle. As long as the machine has IR, BT, or WiFi, I'm in business... no special middleware required. If they have PC Card slots, I can also just insert the media into a PC adapter and insert the adapter into their laptop as well... works perfectly.

Now this doesn't mean this makes the PPC better for everyone's needs, but I do feel that the native file system provides clear benefits for people such as myself.

[Fishie]

Are you referring to this?

http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0-2709830-404-4772568.html

If so, please go back in the ditch you dug yourself into. Even CNet rates the battery life at horrid, coming in at 4 hours. Besides, it's got Windows CE as its OS. Not even PPC. Yikes.

Yes, it has all the features you mentioned, but you forgot to mention this little bit of information:

It's two pounds! The NZ90 is 10 ounces, and this thing is 30 ounces. Yeah, real comparable. How about I compare a laptop to that thing, etc. I know the NZ is a stretch to carry around all the time, but please, this thing is huge and a real brick. Buy a few of them (which costs $1500 each, might I add) and you can build a home.

Back to you, Fishie.



Ah yes, seems like youve searched long and hard to find the only negative review of the unit in existence, and regarding battery life CNet is just plain wrong about this unit, here are the CNet user reviews http://computers.cnet.com/hardware/0-2709830-418-4772568.html?tag=st.co.2709830-404-4772568.box.2709830-418-4772568
Im not even gonna start with all the other profesional reviews that praise this unit.

Oh BTW PPC IS WinCE but im sure you knew that :twisted:

[Ed Hansberry]

Oh BTW PPC IS WinCE but im sure you knew that :twisted:
No, PPC is built on Windows CE but it isn't WinCE. Install a handfull of Pocket PC apps on the Intermec. Either they won't install or they won't work once installed, or they will have very screwy screens.

[Fishie]

Oh BTW PPC IS WinCE but im sure you knew that :twisted:
No, PPC is built on Windows CE but it isn't WinCE. Install a handfull of Pocket PC apps on the Intermec. Either they won't install or they won't work once installed, or they will have very screwy screens.

Thats becouse the processor is not supported.
Take the Jornada 720 and you will see that a lot of PPC programs work with verry little effort and others take just a few lines of code to get to work on it, yes there are a lot that wil not work whatsoever but still the OS core is the same.
The Jornada 720 uses the exact same OS as the Intermec but uses a Strongarm just like the PPC.
HPC2k, PPC2k and PPC2k2 are all based on CE3.0.
HPC2k and PPC2k have support for several dfferent processor lines while PPC2k2 supports only the Strongarm and compatible processors.

[Bosco]

Fishie, thanks for questioning my... umm... intelligence and researching ability. Is it my fault the unbiased and fair (but rather bland) CNet reviewers didn't like the machine? Can you blame them? Two pounds, CE 3.0 (as a GUI and OS, at least PPC is a little friendlier in the GUI part, so I hear), and it costs $1500? I'd much rather spend another $200 and get a 12" Powerbook.

Funny that you should say something like:

Oh BTW PPC IS WinCE but im sure you knew that

to try and make me look like somewhat of a fool, but in fact only being shown to be wrong by other members. Come on, if you want a fight, you have to do a little better than getting proven wrong by your own side!

Ekkie, I sincerely appreciate the open-minded attitude you've displayed. MS Import comes in ROM of the Clies. There's a PC counterpart to it called MS Export, but this is not at all required. No special drivers, either. It's plug and play, and especially easy if you have Windows XP. If you hook up the cradle or cable to the computer's USB port, connect the Clie to the cradle/cable, insert the MS in the slot, and enter into the MS Import application, it will appear as another drive in MY COMPUTER on the desktop. You can drag and drop or right click on an item and choose SEND TO, etc. Just think of it as a removable Zip Drive. Actually, this comes in handy. Say my insanely intricate research paper filled with 150 pages in Word, single spaced, and tons of images attached has just been finished and it's 12:30 AM on a Sunday night. Yikes, printer's broken (Windoze for ya). Uh oh, CD Burner isn't working either, floppy isn't big enough to store it (it has a lot of images, okay???), and the school doesn't have Zip Drives. The situation looks grim. Will Bosco be able to get an A on his paper? Will something provide a solution for him to bring his utterly uselessly large paper to school with him the next morning?

YES!

I connect my MS to my Clie, Clie to my cradle, and cradle to my USB port, and enter MS Import. Drag and drop the saved file from my hard drive to the MS drive in My Computer, disconnect it, and go to sleep. The next morning, I bring my sync cable, Clie, and MS to the school, connect it all up to a school computer without installing any software, and print directly from the Memory Stick. Disconnect, collect the paper, and I'm on my way to an A. 8) No worries of finding an IR port on the desktops there, either. Any old USB port will do.

[Fishie]

Hehehehe, fact remains both Intermec as wel as all PPCs use WinCE3.0.
And like I said it seems like you searched long and hard to find a negative review, and one thats horribly outdated at that.
The GUI is HPC2K and is actually easier to get used to then Palm OS and PPC since EVERYTHING looks and works exactly the same as it does on a windows desktop running win2k.

Its big compared to a Palm or a PPC yes but since the new Sony isnt pocketable the extra bulk doesnt matter that much(its still only half the size of a Vaio slimline).
Oh and why trust the only negative review out there when that review cant even get a simple fact like the battery life right?

[Fishie]

Oh and they can be had new for as little as 500$.

[Bosco]

Well sure, but who wants a three year old outdated PDA?

And the NZ IS pocketable. Imagine the NX70v in your pocket (if you've ever done it) and try to recall what the thickest part felt like (CF slot). Then, imagine that all the way around. That's the NZ. My NX fits in my pocket with plenty of room to spare. Granted, it's not for everyone, but you can't argue that a two pound PDA that's larger than a hard-cover novel is better simply because of the feature set, totally disregarding ANY type of pocketability. Now that we're getting out of hand with this size issue, does that $1500 PDA compare to my Dimension 8200 at 1.7 GHz?

Hehehehe, fact remains both Intermec as wel as all PPCs use WinCE3.0.

Yes, but PPC's have the PPC as their GUI. As I hear it, it's at the very least easier to use than the supposedly horrid user interface of CE 3.0.

And like I said it seems like you searched long and hard to find a negative review, and one thats horribly outdated at that.

Yes. Either that, or what I really did was run a search for the model number you listed, saw a CNet review on the top of the list, took a look in, read some facts (CNet is not known for publishing misleading information), and put a link to the article here. Horribly outdated review? Well, it's a horribly outdated review for a horribly outdated device. Make sense?

It's like talking to a wall. :roll:

[Bosco]

That is the danger to having fragmented, nonstandard OS implementations all over the map.

So, do you mean to say it's better to have a non-optimized processor as the standard? If you're more into Ogg than MP3, the Tungsten may be for you, then. Different needs for different people.

[Fishie]

Hahaha, the four houre quote for the battery is on continous use with a wireles card.
Three year old tech it may be but in functionality it still beats out any Palm machine out there and for a lot of tasks (Word, Excel etcetera) it leaves the PPC eating dust as wel.

WinCE is not a user interface, its an OS, HPC2k is the interface for this machine just like PPC is the interface on for instance an Ipaq.
WinCE 3.0(actually the Intermec is 3.01) again is NOT an interface, its the engine while HPC2k is the actual car with the steering column, the pedals the dashboard and what have you not.

[Bosco]

Glad this topic was unlocked.

Three year old tech it may be but in functionality it still beats out any Palm machine out there and for a lot of tasks (Word, Excel etcetera) it leaves the PPC eating dust as wel.


You might want to reconsider picking a software fight with me, here. Docs To Go and Picsel Viewer look like they're going to make an awesome combination on the same device. Yeah yeah, built-in keyboard, but the NZ has a built-in mini-keyboard, virtual graffiti, and options for wireless keyboards (BlueTooth, IR, possibly a KB-11 driver to be released soon).

[Ed Hansberry]

Glad this topic was unlocked.
Keep it up and it'll get relocked. This thread isn't about PalmOS vs Pocket PC. It is about sony hardware, the NZ specifically. Period.

[Bosco]

This thread isn't about PalmOS vs Pocket PC. It is about sony hardware, the NZ specifically. Period.

Oh come on. You're as guilty of it as I am. I was merely responding to a few posts describing a certain Intermec unit that was supposedly better than a certain Sony unit. I didn't start it, so don't point the finger at me. Remember, I'm the troll here, so I must defend my standpoint. 8)

I don't really consider the thread off topic. I consider it more of an evolution. I saw comments about PPC being a better alternative to the NZ, I made a post that PPC's can't be compared to something in a niche segment like this, bam, end of discussion for that. Now, either the thread dies or evolves into something on a very similar topic. :twisted: Period. :twisted:

As for X-Scale and optimization, Sony has their flaws too. I'm not proud of Sony's proprietary use of technology, nor are many other people. I'd much rather buy a $250 1 GB CF Microdrive than a $200 256 MB Memory Stick. Same with the Wifi card and slot, and I'd also like to have a choice of other applications that take advantage of the DSP. Sure, I'm in love with the current bundled software, but it's never bad to have a list of choices. (This is on topic)

[Fishie]

Heh you were the one asking for devices in the other camp that had camera or whatever else the clie had, I merely provided an example as lopsided as the ones you brought forth :twisted:

[Steven Cedrone]

Thread locked...Permanently!

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator