When Are You Switching?

[Andy Sjostrom]

As Microsoft readies its .NET Compact Framework for mobile device development and incorporates development tools and languages into the Visual Studio .NET it stands clear that developers are tasked with a quite significant switch. To me it is not a matter of "if" but "when" the switch has to be made. I switched a couple of months ago, but I still do some maintenance development in eMbedded Visual Basic.<br /><br />I wonder when you plan to make the switch, or have you already? I am also interested in knowing what benefits, disadvantages or concerns you see or have in making the switch!

[FredMurphy]

I looked at eVB and decided that it wasn't worth bothering with; you just couldn't do anything interesting with it (Today plug-ins, etc). Thought about learning C++ just for the Pocket PC but then C# was in beta so I decided that would be the way to go.

I've been using .NET for the last year and love it so I'm waiting for the Visual Studio 2003 before I start any Pocket PC development.

[BigCanoe]

How big is the footprint of the Compact Framework that needs to be installed on the PocketPC? I think it won't really hit mainstream until its part of a ROM update, and people don't have to think about installing it.

[cscullion]

I haven't really been following the details of .NET CF (I use eVC++ exclusively). It sounds like there will no longer be a separate, supported development environment for embedded devices (eVB, eVC). Is that true? If so, then handheld developers will need to buy Visual Studio? If that is the case, I'll put off .NET as long as possible. If that's not the case, please enlighten me.

I develop primarily for Palm OS, and then port to PocketPC (which turns out to be very easy... I re-use about 80% of my C++ code). Yes, I need Visual Studio for Palm Conduit development, but VS 6.0 is still supported and working fine for that. I've been avoiding .NET in desktop development because I have yet to see any advantage (in my work, that is). Moving to VS.NET on the desktop will be very disruptive to me, unless VS 6.0 can co-exist on the same development box.

[Rirath]

Personally I use .NET for all, mostly Visual Basic. I'm hoping to pick up C# in my spring classes, or at least enough of a foothold to learn it from where it leaves off. (which is more often the case)

[Peter Foot]

How big is the footprint of the Compact Framework that needs to be installed on the PocketPC? I think it won't really hit mainstream until its part of a ROM update, and people don't have to think about installing it.

It's about 1.5mb. It is bound to start appearing in ROMs once it is formally released.

[Busdriver]

Sure wish there was a to develop directly on the device using MS's tools.

[Peter Foot]

It sounds like there will no longer be a separate, supported development environment for embedded devices (eVB, eVC). Is that true? If so, then handheld developers will need to buy Visual Studio? If that is the case, I'll put off .NET as long as possible. If that's not the case, please enlighten me.
Moving in that direction yes, you can use both VB.NET and C# with Visual Studio 2003, hopefully eventually the full range of dev languages will be supported for smart device development - they all compile down to the same Intermediate Language after all. However we are not quite at a point yet where we can abandon good old eVC++...


I develop primarily for Palm OS, and then port to PocketPC (which turns out to be very easy... I re-use about 80% of my C++ code). Yes, I need Visual Studio for Palm Conduit development, but VS 6.0 is still supported and working fine for that. I've been avoiding .NET in desktop development because I have yet to see any advantage (in my work, that is). Moving to VS.NET on the desktop will be very disruptive to me, unless VS 6.0 can co-exist on the same development box.

VS.NET and VS 6 will happily sit side by side (as long as you have the disk space :)

You can keep your backend code in C++ and call it from a .NET application using Platform Invoke. Afterall the code you probably re-write between palm and pocket pc is probably to do the ui and such like and hence your program logic is probably unchanged c++ code more or less - not sure how easy it would be to port the whole lot to C#.

Perhaps we'll see a Palm runtime for the Compact Framework soon :wink:

[Ken Mattern]

Mostly I'm waiting for a new workstation to begin using .NET at work. I have already begun developing at home and love it. My first program was a center of gravity calculator for the UH-60 (Black Hawk) helicopter. Sweet :D

[Peter Foot]

My first program was a center of gravity calculator for the UH-60 (Black Hawk) helicopter. Sweet :D

Hang on, those helicopters have been flying for years, how did they manage when they didn't know where the centre of gravity was???? 8O :lol:

[Ken Mattern]

My first program was a center of gravity calculator for the UH-60 (Black Hawk) helicopter. Sweet :D

Hang on, those helicopters have been flying for years, how did they manage when they didn't know where the centre of gravity was???? 8O :lol:

Believe it or not they do it with grids on paper and a straight edge. There are about ten pages in the manual on just the center of gravity. Ultimately this program will become a part of the larger weight and balance package. The pilot can not fly the aircraft until the weight and balance has been calculated to determine the center of gravity before takeoff to landing. The hard part will be the calculation of fuel consumption based on altitude, temperature and type of fuel. The number of passengers, amunition, etc. is pre configured.

Now you know why I love my job :P

[Rirath]

The pilot can not fly the aircraft until the weight and balance has been calculated to determine the center of gravity before takeoff to landing. The hard part will be the calculation of fuel consumption based on altitude, temperature and type of fuel. The number of passengers, amunition, etc. is pre configured.

Now you know why I love my job :P

One man's love is another's waking nightmare. 8O If it was me... "So... many.... numbers.... eeeeh 27!!" ("...mayday, mayday, we're going down...") If you can do it though, congrats. 8)

[Busdriver]

All this calculating stuff for helicopters is just a facade anyway. The only way they can fly is pure magic. Too many moving parts! :razzing:

[Peter Foot]

All this calculating stuff for helicopters is just a facade anyway. The only way they can fly is pure magic. Too many moving parts! :razzing:

Yeah, the rotor-blades are just to blow dust in everyones faces on the ground... :D

[Jimmy Dodd]

I'm not sure what to answer. I don't see an option for "I'll continue to use both for a long time."

I'm currently using eVC++, MFC, and .NET cf for the PPC, and VS 6.0, VS.NET, and VS.NET 2003 (Everett) for the desktop. I haven't figured out a use for .NET cf in ActiveSync, Today Plug-Ins, etc. Has anyone? .NET cf is nice for working with SQL CE, though.

[GadgetDave]

I'm currently using eVC++, MFC, and .NET cf for the PPC, and VS 6.0, VS.NET, and VS.NET 2003 (Everett) for the desktop. I haven't figured out a use for .NET cf in ActiveSync, Today Plug-Ins, etc. Has anyone? .NET cf is nice for working with SQL CE, though.

Agreed, it's nice for working with lots of stuff. And the dev environment is much better than VS 6 ... :D

[Ken Mattern]

All this calculating stuff for helicopters is just a facade anyway. The only way they can fly is pure magic. Too many moving parts! :razzing:

I really think they weren't meant to fly at all. If you lose an engine you can still fly your airplane. If you lose a prop you can still fly. But with helicopters... 8O

[carphead]

I guess you do kind of fly in a helicopter. Only it's down and a great speed.

It's the same kind of flying that I have a habit of taking part in on a Saturday night. Sad thing is I make a bigger dent!

[Steven Cedrone]

O.K, let's get back on topic. Fell free to create an Off-Topic thread about the helicopter/fixed wing debate. :wink:

Steven Cedrone
Community Moderator

[Kati Compton]

I chose the last option in the poll because none of the others applied. I'll switch when I can get .NET for free. As I understand it (and please correct me if I'm wrong - I want to be wrong here), .NET costs $, while eVC is free. Given that I don't have much time to devote to PPC development, and what I write is going to be freeware anyway, I don't want to shell out lots of $ for a development tool.

[cyclwestks]

Does that mean in the future a person will have to "purchase" the developoment environment? I was excited to see the free tools MS was offering & was going to try to do some development for pocket pc.

[Jimmy Dodd]

MS has gone back to making the CE tools an integrated part of Visual Studio. This is good news for those of us who are pro developers and can let someone else foot the bill for VS, but not so good for hobbyists and students.

The Smart Device Extensions plug-in is free and I have heard that it can be used with the cheaper versions (i.e. single language) of Studio which can be purchased for around $100. I haven't actually tried it though.

[Kevin Remhof]

I wish I could use these tools. But, with the advent of Pocket PC 2002, I haven't been able to do any development (easily that is) on my home PC. I run Windows 98 and don't have any plans to upgrade to Windows XP for at least another year. Unfortunately, the tools from Microsoft don't support 98.

Heck, I can't even use Microsoft's tool for creating Today themes.

Oh well, guess I'll just use this as another excuse to get a new PC at home.

[kennyg]

For those of us doing shrink-wrapped style software development, it will be a LONG time before we switch, likely years. Because not enough will have the .NET CF in ROM and the install would be a huge pain.

For the corporate development I've done, working with the C# beta was relatively painless, the UI is responsive for the size of the applications I've written and the coding wasn't bad, but the documentation on the differences from .NET and .NET CF is thin and hard to follow.

One expection about the .NET CF though, the direct API call integration is horrendously under-implemented (but hey, they got IR in there :roll: ) Integrating with the Connection Manger or Call Log API was painful at best. And you WILL have to integrate with the Pocket PC specific APIs if you want to write a application which takes advantage of the device at all.

[Peter Foot]

Perhaps what is needed to make adoption of the CF a viable option for more developers is an SDK version, much like the desktop framework with a console compiler. That way anyone can create .net apps but you are paying for the powerful dev environment.

Just a thought...

[Will T Smith]

C# rocks and I can't wait to make it work on the PocketPC.

Regarding free tools:
Microsoft offers a SDK version of C# compiler and the .net runtime for free. I see no reason why Microsoft would stop the policy.

Though, i'm not sure that anyone would wan't to use plain SDK when a Visual Studio copy is only $99.

[Kati Compton]

Though, i'm not sure that anyone would wan't to use plain SDK when a Visual Studio copy is only $99.

$99 is a lot of money that could be spent on something other than a very minor hobby. That being said, I plan to get a free/academic discounted version if possible.

[PHactotum]

Moving to VS.NET on the desktop will be very disruptive to me, unless VS 6.0 can co-exist on the same development box.

VS 6.0 and VS.NET can co-exist on the same development box. I currently VB 6.0 installed and a 60 day trial of VS.NET on my XP box with no problems. Well unless you count being at day 70 of the 60 day trial a problem. :?

Visual Studio copy is only $99.

Where did you find that? I've been looking at upgrading my VS 6.0 Pro to VS.NET. The Cheapest I could find pro for is $1,083. This is the reason I can't afford to move to .NET programming. I could use the SDK, but I'm not that good of a developer and I need the help that the VS gives me.

[Jimmy Dodd]

Visual Studio copy is only $99.

Where did you find that? I've been looking at upgrading my VS 6.0 Pro to VS.NET. The Cheapest I could find pro for is $1,083. This is the reason I can't afford to move to .NET programming. I could use the SDK, but I'm not that good of a developer and I need the help that the VS gives me.

I think he's talking about the single language versions (C# or VB). You can get them at CompUSA for $99. You don't get all the enterprise stuff, etc. but for the purposes of writing PPC apps you don't really need that anyway.

[Tim Allen]

I was on an MSDN chat last week and asked whether the standard editions of VS.NET 2003 would support device development. Unfortunately the answer was no. :(

I then asked whether this meant there was no low cost route for device development, and how they intended to encourage developers off the embedded visual tools - but got no reply.

We'll have to see if MS do provide the SDE as a separate, free extension that you can simply download as an add-on to VS.NET Standard. But I don't see any evidence of this at the moment.

[Andy Sjostrom]

I really hope they will!

[topps]

I'm currently using eVC++, MFC, and .NET cf for the PPC, and VS 6.0, VS.NET, and VS.NET 2003 (Everett) for the desktop. I haven't figured out a use for .NET cf in ActiveSync, Today Plug-Ins, etc. Has anyone? .NET cf is nice for working with SQL CE, though.

Agreed, it's nice for working with lots of stuff. And the dev environment is much better than VS 6 ... :D

Also agree. I found it much faster to develop the interface and much of the guts of the program with .NETcf than with eVB or VB6. But is slow to load an app if you make the forms too complex. Great IDE.

Just wish I could get a better handle on how to call C++ and C# code from VB.Net. Answers from the ngroups have been very helpful but I keep running into glitches doing this. I suspect that there is some major underlying concept that I am missing.

[Peter Foot]

Just wish I could get a better handle on how to call C++ and C# code from VB.Net. Answers from the ngroups have been very helpful but I keep running into glitches doing this. I suspect that there is some major underlying concept that I am missing.

There are some new articles at MSDN which you may find useful:-
Introduction to Interop - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/netcfintrointerp.asp

Advanced Interop - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/netcfadvinterop.asp

[topps]

Just wish I could get a better handle on how to call C++ and C# code from VB.Net. Answers from the ngroups have been very helpful but I keep running into glitches doing this. I suspect that there is some major underlying concept that I am missing.

There are some new articles at MSDN which you may find useful:-
Introduction to Interop - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/netcfintrointerp.asp

Advanced Interop - http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/en-us/dnnetcomp/html/netcfadvinterop.asp

Thanks very much. Yes, they are quite helpful. Slowly (ridiculously slowly) i'm getting the hang of some of this stuff. (Damn amateurs!) :?