Changing time zones screws up appointments

[whodat]

I live in the Boston area & am currently in Rome. Much to my chagrin, when I changed the time zone on my Axim to reflect my current location, I found that all my appointments were moved ahead by 6 hours. This strikes me as idiocy, but I can't find a way around it in the built-in Calendar application.
Another thread refers to a program called City Time, & this seems to address the issue. Before I go out & get this, are there any built in fixes that I've overlooked? Are there any other suggestions for third-party fixes? And finally, maybe I'm just dense, but are there any circumstances (with the possible exception of noting the duration of a flight that spans time zones) in which the way that PPC Calendar deals with time zones & events makes any sense at all? Somehow, my old Psion Revo's "Agenda" was able to cope with this issue just fine.
Thanks.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Much to my chagrin, when I changed the time zone on my Axim to reflect my current location, I found that all my appointments were moved ahead by 6 hours. This strikes me as idiocy, but I can't find a way around it in the built-in Calendar application.
I'll agree that the PPC can be more flexible with how it handles timezones, but overall, I do find their current method quite helpful. I'm a travelling consultant myself, and I know I'll never miss a scheduled conference call when I'm away from the client site. For example, if I have a Tuesday 8AM meeting in Tokyo but have to fly back to Los Angeles the previous Friday, the automatic adjustment will have the meeting displayed as a Monday 3PM appointment without me having to re-adjust / re-calculate the timing. Given that I have several weekly meetings and knowing that my location from week to week can be random, this feature becomes quite invaluable.

Now booking flights can be somewhat painful as flight times are given in local timezones. Ideally, the PPC should allow you to specify timezones when specifying start-end times, but given that we don't have that flexibility yet, I prefer my PPC's current method than the alternative. Not quite idiocy IMO.

[daS]

... but overall, I do find their current method quite helpful. I'm a travelling consultant myself, and I know I'll never miss a scheduled conference call when I'm away from the client site. For example, if I have a Tuesday 8AM meeting in Tokyo but have to fly back to Los Angeles the previous Friday, the automatic adjustment will have the meeting displayed as a Monday 3PM appointment without me having to re-adjust / re-calculate the timing.

Yes, it’s good for those situations, but that probably represents less than 1% (and I’m being generous here) of typical usage. :evil: More often, I’m in Los Angeles and I’m planning my trip to Tokyo that will be coming up in two weeks. While still in LA I schedule a meeting in Tokyo at my client’s office at 11:00AM. What time should I enter? :?

This is actually a problem that has been in Outlook forever – including the desktop version (try changing your time zone and see for yourself.) I actually came up with a fix for this a few years ago and co-developed it with Terrance Goggin. The fix, known as “Correct Time” automatically shifted all appointments in Pocket Outlook whenever you changed your location. It left repeating appointments alone because we thought that they would most often be of the type you noted (regularly scheduled conference calls, etc.) Unfortunately, it’s not compatible with Pocket PC 2002, and Terrance didn’t get enough users to make it worth updating.

On the other hand, the program City Time (codecity.net) has a feature that allows you to enter an appointment for a specific city and it will do the offset for you. It also allows you to schedule air travel and enter the departure and arrival cities. VERY COOL! 8)

[Pony99CA]

Yes, it’s good for those situations, but that probably represents less than 1% (and I’m being generous here) of typical usage. :evil: More often, I’m in Los Angeles and I’m planning my trip to Tokyo that will be coming up in two weeks. While still in LA I schedule a meeting in Tokyo at my client’s office at 11:00AM. What time should I enter? :?

While it is surprising at first, it actually makes perfect sense. You always schedule meetings relative to the time zone you're in.

For example, I live near San Jose, CA. If I have a 2 PM meeting in New York, I can enter it two ways:

Do the time zone change in my head and enter the meeting at 11 AM on the day in question.
Use the Clock applet to set my Visiting city to New York, then enter the meeting at 2 PM on the day in question. When I'm done, use the Clock applet to set my Home city again.

Once you know what's going on, it makes perfect sense and is easy to do.

Steve

[daS]

For example, I live near San Jose, CA. If I have a 2 PM meeting in New York, I can enter it two ways:

Do the time zone change in my head and enter the meeting at 11 AM on the day in question.
Use the Clock applet to set my Visiting city to New York, then enter the meeting at 2 PM on the day in question. When I'm done, use the Clock applet to set my Home city again.

Once you know what's going on, it makes perfect sense and is easy to do.

Steve

So what you're saying is that, while you have a computer in front of you, the calculations should be done in your head? Try doing that for Iran or New Delhi. Ever gone to Europe around the time we switch from Daylight Savings Time? The US, Europe and the UK all switch on different days. 8O

Or, let's use your second method. Have you ever had to schedule a trip to 5 different cities? (Perhaps with a couple of layovers tossed in?) Do you really want to keep going from Calendar to Setup to move the time zone around? :?

I'm not saying that it can't be done, but do you really think it makes perfect sense? If we gave a Pocket PC to 100 people in San Jose and told them that they needed to schedule a flight to NY and a meeting at 3:00PM when they got there, how many of them would you say would enter the appointment for noon?

[vincentsiaw]

see, any of microsoft guys looking at this thread? microsoft hear our whinning!!

[JonnoB]

The PPC method makes sense. When you are entering an appointment, say San Jose which is Pacific Time, then you are entering a 3PM PST appointment. The one option that could help is to have the timezone appear as an option... so that if you so desired, you could enter the appointment as 12 noon EST. Then it would appear as 3pm in California and noon in NY.

[daS]

The PPC method makes sense.

What makes sense to me is that if I set an appointment for 3:00PM and I go somewhere else, the appointment is still at 3:00PM. That's the way people have used calendars since time zones were invented. In my challenge above, I'm willing to bet that not one of the 100 people would assume that the Pocket PC would move all your appointments (including, BTW, the ones in the past!)

you could enter the appointment as 12 noon EST. Then it would appear as 3pm in California and noon in NY.

Well, actually, no - it would be 9:00AM. :wink: Of course if you needed to work with Phoenix in the summer you'd have to remember that AZ doesn't follow daylight savings time.

Why not just leave a 3:00PM appointment at 3:00PM regardless of which time zone you're in? Doesn't that make sense?

[JonnoB]

The PPC method makes sense.

What makes sense to me is that if I set an appointment for 3:00PM and I go somewhere else, the appointment is still at 3:00PM. That's the way people have used calendars since time zones were invented. In my challenge above, I'm willing to bet that not one of the 100 people would assume that the Pocket PC would move all your appointments (including, BTW, the ones in the past!)


No, when you set an appointment for 3pm, it is 3pm for you where you are located right then, not 3pm for somewhere else. When I live in California and tell someone to call me at 3pm, should I assume that they would call me at 3pm my time or should they assume to call me at 3pm their time (noon my time)? We probably would have sorted it out with each other before then. Time is relative to location, so when you change location, the time should shift.

If the time input system took into account timezone notation, I think it would clear the confusion for people who do not comprehend the time shift relative to location.

you could enter the appointment as 12 noon EST. Then it would appear as 3pm in California and noon in NY.

Well, actually, no - it would be 9:00AM. :wink: Of course if you needed to work with Phoenix in the summer you'd have to remember that AZ doesn't follow daylight savings time.

Why not just leave a 3:00PM appointment at 3:00PM regardless of which time zone you're in? Doesn't that make sense?

Yes, inverted to what I said. If I make an appointment at 3pm, it is not the same 3pm everywhere. If everyone got on a conference call at 3pm from each timezone, most people would miss each other. Also relating to your question about AZ which does not have a PDT, this is the reason that AZ has it's own timezone reference... look at your Pocket PC. Again, the Pocket PC takes care of this automatically. You simply input the true time of your intended meeting relative to the timezone your Pocket PC is operating in... when you change locations, the scheduled meetings will be adjusted to the true time relative to that location.

[daS]

No, when you set an appointment for 3pm, it is 3pm for you where you are located right then, not 3pm for somewhere else. When I live in California and tell someone to call me at 3pm, should I assume that they would call me at 3pm my time or should they assume to call me at 3pm their time (noon my time)?

Do you travel? 8O If I set an appointment for 3:00PM it is almost always for 3:00PM where I'm going to be on the appointment date, not 3:00PM were I was when I made the appointment!

Another issue with the way it operates: If I have an appointment in NY next Tuesday at 3:00PM, I want to be able to look at my schedule between now and when I leave for NY and see what time I have free on Tuesday. But my schedule will show my meeting to be at noon. Then, what happens if I stop in Chicago? I have to keep dancing around the time zone issue. If it would just leave the appointment at 3:00PM it would be far easier to know what my day is going to look like.

As for your example, you are not entering an appointment for the call in the other person's PPC, you are entering it in your own! You don't care what time zone he's in - that's his problem.

I agree that for the few cases where you are setting up a conference call (and you are going to a different location at the time of the call,) the bug in Outlook works in your favor. But to be clear - this is a bug! It's due to the way that Outlook and MS Exchange Server store dates and time. Microsoft did this well before the Pocket PC was a part of the system. They didn't plan for a user to be changing the time zone on their own computer. The way it works on the Pocket PC was not intentional.

Do you really think that people schedule more conference calls for times when they will be in a different location as opposed to scheduling meetings and travel plans (airline flights) for other locations?

If the time input system took into account timezone notation, I think it would clear the confusion for people who do not comprehend the time shift relative to location.

Well I'm not confused (thank you) and I certainly comprehend the bug in Outlook, that doesn't mean I find it to be useful 99% of the time.

But at least we agree on something! :D Having the ability to enter the time zone you're going to be in at the time of the appointment helps. That's what City Time (www.codecity.net) can do (among its other features.)

Of course another way to deal with this is to not change the time zone in the Pocket PC when you travel but update the time instead. You won't be able to tell what time it is somewhere else (like back home) but at least you won't miss your flights! :D

[Pony99CA]

What makes sense to me is that if I set an appointment for 3:00PM and I go somewhere else, the appointment is still at 3:00PM. That's the way people have used calendars since time zones were invented.

Paper calendars of tha past couldn't change appointment times, of course, so the analogy isn't great. :-) However, let me give you an example of where not changing the appointment could cause problems.

Suppose I'm in New York and have a 2 PM meeting in San Jose. So, under your scenario, I'd enter an appointment for 2 PM in the Calendar. Now suppose my boss comes to me and says he wants a status report every day at 5 PM (New York time, of course). So I enter another appointment to call the boss at 5 PM in the Calendar. Oops, I don't notice that that conflicts with my 2 PM meeting in San Jose (which is 5 PM in New York).

Or suppose my boss wants me to call him at 6 PM, after the meeting. I enter the appointment to call him at 6 PM. When I get to San Jose, I presumably set my Pocket PC to Pacific Time. At 2 PM, my alarm goes off and reminds me of the meeting, just like it should. At 6 PM, my alarm goes off to remind me of the phone call, but, as it's 9 PM in New York, either my boss has gone home, or he's very angry at having had to wait 3 hours for my call.

If appointments don't move as you change time zones, things like that can happen, too. So your solution isn't perfect, either.

One case where moving the times doesn't make sense is for things like wake-up times. If you want to get up at 6 AM every morning and use the Calendar for your alarm, you don't really want that alarm moving as you switch time zones. (Of course, maybe using the Clock applet's alarms would work better -- times don't seem to shift there -- but you only get four of them.)

I still think moving alarms makes sense, once you get used to it, because there's no one solution to fit all needs.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

If the time input system took into account timezone notation, I think it would clear the confusion for people who do not comprehend the time shift relative to location.

It would certainly help, but it won't be perfect. While it would help with locations whose time zone you know, what if you didn't know the time zone?

Consider planning a trip to Minsk. Using the current Clock applet, what timezone would you choose? I have no idea.

I'd visit a site like TimeAndDate.com (http://www.timeanddate.com) or do a Google search for Minsk "time zone". I'd find out that it's UTC+2, then I'd have to take the Minsk time and my current time, do the math and use that to set my time. If my Pocket PC wasn't connected to the Web, I'd need to ask someone or find an Internet connection. (Actually, I have Conduits' Pocket Watch (http://www.conduits.com/products/watch/), which has a location database, including Minsk. :-))

That's one regression going from Pocket PC 2000 to Pocket PC 2002 -- they removed the location database from the Clock applet. Of course, even if it was still in Pocket PC 2002, it didn't contain every location, but it was better than nothing.

Steve

[Pony99CA]

I agree that for the few cases where you are setting up a conference call (and you are going to a different location at the time of the call,) the bug in Outlook works in your favor. But to be clear - this is a bug! It's due to the way that Outlook and MS Exchange Server store dates and time. Microsoft did this well before the Pocket PC was a part of the system. They didn't plan for a user to be changing the time zone on their own computer. The way it works on the Pocket PC was not intentional.

<sarcasm>
You know, if you have such good connections at Microsoft to know this, why not tell them to fix this "bug"? I mean, how else could you know that appointment times moving when you changed time zones is a bug and not a design decision. How else could you know that it was not intentional on the Pocket PC?
</sarcasm>

Did you ever think that this could be the way things are intended to work? As E-mail can travel across time zones, I would think Microsoft would be quite aware of time zone changes and scheduling meetings in different time zones.

You may not like the way it works, which is fair enough, but unless you have specific knowledge that this is a bug, don't call it one. You seem to be a software developer, too, and should know better. :-)

Steve

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

While it would help with locations whose time zone you know, what if you didn't know the time zone?
Not knowing the timezone of a location would be an issue regardless of the solution used in storing appointments. That said, providing a timezone with a time would be far more preferable.

However, given that we do not have this ability out-of-box, I do STRONGLY prefer Microsoft's current method of shifting appointment times with the timezone. The alternative in which appointments keep a hard-set time cause more issues with traveling business people IMO - especially when juggling multiple appointments across different timezones. My colleagues who use their Palm Vx are constantly frustrated at having to manually readjust all of their appointment times whenever moving from one country to another (and are very envious that my PPC automatically handles these adjustments).

The current method does require that the user either has some knowledge of offsetting timeshift associated with various timezones, but it's a one-time cost in setting up recurring appointments. The alternative incurs constant manual adjustment.

It's a no-brainer which method works better for me and my colleagues... but there is still yet a better solution.

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Did you ever think that this could be the way things are intended to work?
If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the "shifting appointments" something new with PPC2002. I don't recall having this ability with PPC2000.

If that's the case, then the change with PPC2002 was definitely a design decision, especially considering that the OS even notifies you that your appointment times will shift whenever changing timezones.

[whodat]

Interesting to see how much emotion exists on this topic. After all has been said here so far, I still think that the status quo facilitates 1-5% of situations at the expense of others (I guess maybe it's also useful if people in different time zones are synchronizing with a single server). I do think that the Solomonic way to solve this would be for MS to offer an option to enter appt times either way.

Seeing as we live in an imperfect world, are there any fixes (or to be diplomatic, alternatives) except City World?

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Interesting to see how much emotion exists on this topic.
Yup... on both sides apparently...

After all has been said here so far, I still think that the status quo facilitates 1-5% of situations at the expense of others (I guess maybe it's also useful if people in different time zones are synchronizing with a single server).
Where do you get these numbers?? 1-5%???... I can say for myself as well as the majority of my colleagues that this feature solves many more problems than it creates and there appears to be others here who feel the same.

1-5%?? ...and yet, this is the first time I've heard someone complain of this??

For the record, my use of this has nothing to do with "synchronizing with a single server"... it's simply the ability to track my appointments no matter where I am...

I do think that the Solomonic way to solve this would be for MS to offer an option to enter appt times either way.
To take that further, I think the ideal would be to allow the user to specify timezones with their times (with the local timezone being the default).

Seeing as we live in an imperfect world, are there any fixes (or to be diplomatic, alternatives) except City World?
No. I don't know of any other solutions other than City World...

[xerxers]

The first time that this happened to me was a disaster as I had my wife with me and my alarm went off in London at 2am just as we got to sleep...

I have now found what I think is the best solution. It involves two programs. City Time and Pocket Informant.

I travel frequently and must make appotinments at different time zones and I don't really trust my memory if it is -6 hours or +6 hours or whatever.

So in Pocket Informant I select the date for the appointment say in Frankfurt. A drop down box now lets me make an appoitment in whatever city I want. You must have City time to be able to do this.

Now the issue is that once you have entered the local FRA time and have ended the PI entry when you look at the appointment the actual time is at -7 hours from your local time but when you change your clock to FRA time then the appointments show at the correct time and of course all your appointments in your home city, in my case Chicago, are off by 7 hours.

I have now used this system for about 18 months and have yet to miss an appointment.

Two excellent programs.

The other program you might like to consider is Travller by Two peaks as that also allows you to make appoitments in whatever time zone you like. You enter the data into your PC and then sync to your PDA. This is also anothe cool program that allows you to do a lot with itieraries either within North ASmerica or Internationally.

Xerxers

[Sven Johannsen]

I have been in this discussion numerous times over the past few years. For the record I am on the don't move my darn appointments camp, though I can see the convoluted illogic used by the other side ;) I don't see it changing in the OS anytime soon, so I would recommend folks either get one of the many apps that allow inputing TimeZone adjusted appointments, or just don't use the 'Visiting' feature of the clock. Just change the time like you do on your wristwatch.

The reason I don't see it changing is that this is the way Outlook has worked since it was released. And yes it worked exactly the same in PPC2000 as it does today in PPC2002. When the issue first came up, last century :), you could (and still can) find a Microsoft Knowledge Base article that describes the way it is intended to function, and why, and uses the phrase "This is useful if you travel". So it is not a 'bug' (in MS eyes) it is an actual feature.

I will say this. If you have the option to define your current timezone, and the option to select a different, second, timezone, and easily switch between them, as the clock app allows, I would expect that it would do more than just change the time on the clock. I don't like what it does, and I'm not sure what I would want it to do, but it is a lot of wasted code and space if all it did was change the clock. I could do that with just spin buttons on a clock display.

[daS]

This conversation is degenerating rapidly. And reading my own posts, I’m as much to blame as anyone. :oops: I think I’ve explained my position as best I can, and like religion, I doubt any of us are going to change the other’s mind. So I don’t think I’ll continue, unless it’s to answer a specific question - such as yours... :wink:

<sarcasm>
You know, if you have such good connections at Microsoft to know this, why not tell them to fix this "bug"? I mean, how else could you know that appointment times moving when you changed time zones is a bug and not a design decision. How else could you know that it was not intentional on the Pocket PC?
</sarcasm>
You may not like the way it works, which is fair enough, but unless you have specific knowledge that this is a bug, don't call it one. You seem to be a software developer, too, and should know better. :-)

So in answer to you questions: My connection at Microsoft was Garrett Vargas – the lead developer for Pocket Outlook and POOM (Pocket Outlook Object Model.) Garrett made the presentation at a Windows CE Developer’s Conference that introduced POOM. After his presentation, I specifically asked him about this because I got burned by this odd behavior when I once missed a flight due to relying on my Windows CE 2.x machine. :? He explained that Pocket Outlook retained the data structure from Outlook and the moving of appointments was an unintentional side effect. (Yes, I once was a software developer and that’s one of the things that I call a bug.) Garrett and I exchanged a few emails that helped me to understand how the offset takes place (which helped with the development of “Correct Time”.) Unfortunately, that was some time ago, and it appears that Garrett is no longer with the Pocket PC development team.

But having access to someone that knows how and why something works the way it does, is a far cry from getting it fixed. Just ask any of the MVPs on this board about how many bugs they know about that they’ve told Microsoft about, but are still around. Sometimes, and this is one of those times, the cost to fix it – and the chances of breaking something far worse – are just too great. In fact, at this stage of the game, with all the various versions of Outlook and Exchange using the same method, if I was the group manager at Microsoft, I wouldn't let them fix it either!

On the other hand, I do think that an "advanced scheduling" button should be added to Outlook that would allow you to duplicate the features of City Time. On that point, I hope we all can agree on something. :D

[daS]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the "shifting appointments" something new with PPC2002. I don't recall having this ability with PPC2000.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. This behavior has been around since Windows CE V1.0. It also works that way on your desktop so it was not a design decision for the Pocket PC. Try changing the time zone on your desktop and you will see your appointments are shifted. (You may have to exit the calendar view and come back to refresh the screen.)

[karen]

The other program you might like to consider is Travller by Two peaks as that also allows you to make appoitments in whatever time zone you like. You enter the data into your PC and then sync to your PDA. This is also anothe cool program that allows you to do a lot with itieraries either within North ASmerica or Internationally.

Xerxers

I second this. I use Traveller quite a bit and enjoy being able to enter appointments with the appropriate time zone.

Karen

[Sven Johannsen]

If I'm not mistaken, wasn't the "shifting appointments" something new with PPC2002. I don't recall having this ability with PPC2000.

Sorry, but you are mistaken. This behavior has been around since Windows CE V1.0. It also works that way on your desktop so it was not a design decision for the Pocket PC. Try changing the time zone on your desktop and you will see your appointments are shifted. (You may have to exit the calendar view and come back to refresh the screen.)

The KB I mentioned earlier is 168343. In case anyone wants to confirm that this is the way MS intended it.

[daS]

The KB I mentioned earlier is 168343. In case anyone wants to confirm that this is the way MS intended it.

I've had to play that game too...

We have an unexpected behavior and we're not going to fix it - I know! Let's provide a white paper to say that's what we wanted it to do all along! :grinning devil:

Microsoft clearly did this for group scheduling. That's a vaild issue for enterprise users, but I am quite sure (regardless of the KB Article's single comment that "This feature is useful if you travel with your computer. ") the developers did not have the Pocket PC and travellers in mind at the time.

Personally, I didn't find it useful to miss my flight the first time I discovered that it worked this way. :evil:

Nor did xerxers, when his alarm that is set to wake him up every morning at the same time assumed that he wanted to know that it was morning back home!

I still maintain that, while useful in certain rare instances (such as conference calls that take place while you're away from home) the vast majority of the time it's wrong.

I also stand by my claim that it is non-intuitive. Sure it can be explained, and yes, there are a few circumstances where it’s useful. But it’s not the behavior that is expected. It has to be explained – and while I might have missed it in the huge manual that was supplied with the Pocket PC, you’re not told that your appointments are all going to be shifted.

Well a few posts ago I said I was going to drop this, and I’m guilty of dragging myself back in. Sorry to all. :oops:

[DrtyBlvd]

Interesting to see how much emotion exists on this topic. After all has been said here so far, I still think that the status quo facilitates 1-5% of situations at the expense of others (I guess maybe it's also useful if people in different time zones are synchronizing with a single server). I do think that the Solomonic way to solve this would be for MS to offer an option to enter appt times either way.

Seeing as we live in an imperfect world, are there any fixes (or to be diplomatic, alternatives) except City World?

I really really really can't see any reason to change time zones on the PPC. I've tried to come up with circumstances, but they ellude me.

I appreciate others' views, but like religeon, I'm afraid I just don't get it!


I feel the need...the need for a poll...

[Pony99CA]

For those of you that haven't upgraded to Pocket PC 2002, there is a program called MoveAppt (http://www.tjotala.com/software/wince/moveappt/default.htm) that will take an appointment in your calendar and move it to another city's time zone.

Unfortunately, because Microsoft removed the city database from Pocket PC 2002 (what were they thinking?), MoveAppt won't work on Pocket PC 2002 devices. :-(

I wonder if the city database could be copied from a Pocket PC 2000 device and placed on a Pocket PC 2002 device.

Steve

[Mark R Penn]

Well, looks to me like someone should steam in in support of daS (and the original poster!).

Lets say I'm sitting at my desk, here in the UK. I speak to my distributer for the USA, who's in NY. I arrange a meeting with him for 9.00am NY time. I then also arrange to go with him to see several of his clients across the States in different time zones.

I then do NOT want to:

a) Have to go into settings to change the time zone for each appointment.

or

b) Have my diary tell me I have an appointment in the small hours while I'm still in the UK. What possible use is it to me to know the equivelant UK time for an appointment in NY? all I need to know when I look at my diary, is that I have an appointment at 9.00am in NY.

or

c) Have my diary shift the appointment to some rediculous time once I get to the States, just because I was stupid enough NOT to change the time zone before entering the appointment (because I didn't want to suffer b) above).

I use my diary as a reference while talking to people all around the world. Lets say I'm sitting in NY, when a guy from Tokyo calls me and asks what time we arranged to meet. I look in my diary and hey presto, I have to perform a calculation taking account of the time difference between UK (where I made the appointment), Tokyo (where the appointment is), and NY (where I happen to be now)!!!

The only logical solution to all this is to have a time zone choice when entering a new appointment, but have that used only to calculate the correct time for an alarm to go off, taking account of the current location. Diary entries would display as entered, regardless of the time zone I've set for the PPC. A 9.00 am appointment would always show as 9.00 am, but if it was in the UK, and I was in the States at the time, the alarm would still go off in time to remind me. That takes account of the conference call problem.

So, when I change time zones the times the alarms go off shifts to take account of appointments elsewhere, but the time displayed in the diary does not.

I really can't see why MS find it so difficult. They're an international corporation aren't they, surely their people travel?

BTW, City Time does not help with this - if I enter a City Appointment for 8.00am in Milan, while I remain in the UK my diary tells me I have an appointmet at 7.00am in Milan! I don't!! It does at least take away the need for manual calculations so that a time zones appointments will appear at the correct time for as long as you are in that time zone, but heaven help anyone trying to discuss the time of an appointment with someone in another country!

Mark

[DrtyBlvd]

Err....

At the risk of completely inflaming a situation, which is certainly not my intention (well, on second thoughts, as long as it's fun!)...

Doesn't the above pre-suppose that you use the PDA to tell the time? I mean in the wristwatch sense? :idea:

It makes no sense to me I realise, because I don't - I have a watch! So, it doesn't matter to me what time zone an appointment is made in, as it applies to the day in question regardless of location :!:

So -

I'm sat in London on a Friday; I speak to my pal in Japan to arrange to meet on Tuesday at 1100hrs - I put it in the PDA at Tuesday 1100hrs....

I get to Japan, change my watch so I know the time; and use my diary as normal - :?: What could be simpler??

While I'm there I make arrangements for appointments in New York - then London, and apply the same *ahem* "Logic" - Voila! Works fine; no hassle, no swapping zones or times etc etc etc!

:?:

I certainly appreciate some people might find using the home and away stuff useful for some reason - but it makes no sense to me :!: :lol:

[Mark R Penn]

Well said DrtyBlvd!! That's exactly what I do at present, because the PPC can't cope any other way.

But, what time does your reminder go off if you have an 11.00 appointment in NY, and your time zone is still set to GMT? It will go off at 10.00 UK time (assuming it's set for one hour ahead), which might be several hours to soon or too late!!

Anyway, I should be able to have the correct local time displayed on my PPC, and not have it screw up all my appointments, shouldn't I?

There are a few reasons why it's good to have the correct time displayed on the PPC:

a) I do have a watch, but it doesn't have an alarm on it, so I use the PPC.

b) I also have Pocket Informant and use alarm notes a lot for short term reminders - I should be able to set the time on those without calculating the time zone offset as well.

c) I have an app that schedules e-mail collection daytime/evening/nightime, which gets all screwed up.

d) It just aint right that with the power of this technology I have to make compromises. All it needed was a bit of thought at development stage.

What it needed was an option, so we could choose to display events in local time (9.00 in london displays as 9.00, and 12.00 in NY displays as 12.00 regardless of which zone you're in - just like you say), or to display events in relative time (all in the equivelant UK time in the UK, all in the equivelant NY time in NY, so that you can look for clashes/make sure you have enough travelling time etc etc.).

You're quite right of course. The way you do it is the only way to avoid the confusion. You just have to forego reminders and any other functions that need the correct local time.

Mark

[Pony99CA]

Lets say I'm sitting at my desk, here in the UK. I speak to my distributer for the USA, who's in NY. I arrange a meeting with him for 9.00am NY time. I then also arrange to go with him to see several of his clients across the States in different time zones.

I then do NOT want to:

a) Have to go into settings to change the time zone for each appointment.

or

b) Have my diary tell me I have an appointment in the small hours while I'm still in the UK. What possible use is it to me to know the equivelant UK time for an appointment in NY? all I need to know when I look at my diary, is that I have an appointment at 9.00am in NY.

or

c) Have my diary shift the appointment to some rediculous time once I get to the States, just because I was stupid enough NOT to change the time zone before entering the appointment (because I didn't want to suffer b) above).

I use my diary as a reference while talking to people all around the world. Lets say I'm sitting in NY, when a guy from Tokyo calls me and asks what time we arranged to meet. I look in my diary and hey presto, I have to perform a calculation taking account of the time difference between UK (where I made the appointment), Tokyo (where the appointment is), and NY (where I happen to be now)!!!

The only logical solution to all this is to have a time zone choice when entering a new appointment, but have that used only to calculate the correct time for an alarm to go off, taking account of the current location. Diary entries would display as entered, regardless of the time zone I've set for the PPC. A 9.00 am appointment would always show as 9.00 am, but if it was in the UK, and I was in the States at the time, the alarm would still go off in time to remind me. That takes account of the conference call problem.

Again, what do you do in the following situation. You get a meeting set up for noon in New York. Under your "logical" assumptions, you enter that at noon in the U.K. Before you head to New York, your boss tells you to call in your status at 5 PM every day (before he goes home). When you get to New York, you realize that your call is scheduled at the same time as the meeting. Oops!

Alternatively, you have a 5 PM meeting in New York. You enter that at 5 PM in your "logical" method. Your boss tells you to call in at 5 PM with status every day, so you end up either telling him you have a 5 PM conflict (which you really don't, because the meeting is at 10 PM U.K. time), or you end up with two entries for 5 PM on the same day (which seems rather confusing).

Entering appointments could certainly be made simpler with a time zoen shifter. However, the bottom line is this: you know how it works, get used to it, because I really doubt it will change.

Steve

[Mark R Penn]

Well, both your examples illustrate my point exactly. Ignoring the fact that I'd enter the call boss bit as a task rather than an appointment IF ONLY reminder times would sync properly for tasks, I'd want to enter both without thinking about an offset. I should be able to set call boss at 5.00 with time zone GMT, and 5.00 appointment with time zone NY. It's just I'd want to have the alarm go off at the correct time.

However, the bottom line is this: you know how it works, get used to it, because I really doubt it will change.

Sadly you're right, and I'm comfortable with the way I work around the deficiency, but if we all just accept "things are as they are so don't complain", nothing will improve.

Any way it's one of those issues that has no right or wrong - we all work and think differently, so I do have some small sympathy with the developers.

Mark

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

My viewpoints on this matter are identical to Steve's so I don't think anyone will be satisfied with one approach or the other.

The only ideal solution is the ability to specify "time zone" when setting up new appointments.

[DrtyBlvd]

Again, what do you do in the following situation. You get a meeting set up for noon in New York. Under your "logical" assumptions, you enter that at noon in the U.K. Before you head to New York, your boss tells you to call in your status at 5 PM every day (before he goes home). When you get to New York, you realize that your call is scheduled at the same time as the meeting. Oops!

Alternatively, you have a 5 PM meeting in New York. You enter that at 5 PM in your "logical" method. Your boss tells you to call in at 5 PM with status every day, so you end up either telling him you have a 5 PM conflict (which you really don't, because the meeting is at 10 PM U.K. time), or you end up with two entries for 5 PM on the same day (which seems rather confusing).

Entering appointments could certainly be made simpler with a time zoen shifter. However, the bottom line is this: you know how it works, get used to it, because I really doubt it will change.

Steve

Erm - One thing - if the boss wants me to call at 5pm, then I would use "db's patented reverse Boolean logic" and apply the appointment at compensated UK time - what would that be, midnight NY? It's easier to 'adopt' the time zone you're in than run two!

Mr Penn - Thank you - and I agree with your 'reminder' necessities - absolutely crucial of course - fortunately I don't use the reminder function at all - It drives me nuts on the desktop PC's - I actually sync the diary to the mobile and away we go :wink: I use reminders on that - as A)I can hear them and B)I can hear them!

I do concur with your comments re the technology - it should bloody well work for the prices we pay for our toys - but then, don't we derive a certain satisfaction from 'bending them to our will' in whatever human fashion we do?

Expecting the device to know where it is and when it should be, so to speak, would simply require better options as you and everyone have mentioned - but then, sometimes it's nice to 'just remember' some stuff...and let's face it, if something were crucial, would you only rely on the PDA for it?


All said and done, it doesn't lessen the annoyance if you "tune into it" though, I grant you!

:lol:

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

Again, what do you do in the following situation. You get a meeting set up for noon in New York. Under your "logical" assumptions, you enter that at noon in the U.K. Before you head to New York, your boss tells you to call in your status at 5 PM every day (before he goes home). When you get to New York, you realize that your call is scheduled at the same time as the meeting. Oops!

Alternatively, you have a 5 PM meeting in New York. You enter that at 5 PM in your "logical" method. Your boss tells you to call in at 5 PM with status every day, so you end up either telling him you have a 5 PM conflict (which you really don't, because the meeting is at 10 PM U.K. time), or you end up with two entries for 5 PM on the same day (which seems rather confusing).

Erm - One thing - if the boss wants me to call at 5pm, then I would use "db's patented reverse Boolean logic" and apply the appointment at compensated UK time - what would that be, midnight NY? It's easier to 'adopt' the time zone you're in than run two!

In either situation you're looking at compensating one of the two appointments. With your method, you compensate the boss's appointment to UK time. With the current setup, you compensate the UK appointment to current time.

The difference is that if you travel quite a bit from timezone to timezone (like I do), the current method only requires that you have to get it right the first time, and it will stay accurate regardless of where you are in the world from that point on. Your method works only if your plans don't change and you're in the exact location you expect to be when the appt happens.

What if I have a 12noon appt in Japan, then fly from Japan to California and have a 11AM appt in the US the same day (that flight takes approx 9 hours but the timeshift is -16/17 hours so you "virtually" arrive in CA before you left Japan)? I'd be writing my CA appt to take place before my Japan appointment despite the latter taking place many hours prior to the CA appt.

OK, I understand that's a very unique situation... and I guess we can play "what if" scenarios all day... there is obviously no perfect solution (except for providing a timezone feature), but I do believe that the current setup has advantages versus non-shifting appts.

[Mark R Penn]

but I do believe that the current setup has advantages versus non-shifting appts.

And that's the point - we should not have to choose the lesser of two evils depending on our viewpoint. This is expensive and (supposedly) state of the art technology. It should be, in fact is, possible for it to contain the options that make it fit everyones lifestyles.

For me the worst thing that can happen is that I look in my diary and see an appointment listed at 3.00 am when in fact it's at 10.00 am, even if "technically" that is correct for the time zone I'm in. I accept that what I don't want to see is exactly what many others DO want to see, so the solution would have been a bit more thought at development stage.

Mark

[Pony99CA]

Again, what do you do in the following situation. You get a meeting set up for noon in New York. Under your "logical" assumptions, you enter that at noon in the U.K. Before you head to New York, your boss tells you to call in your status at 5 PM every day (before he goes home). When you get to New York, you realize that your call is scheduled at the same time as the meeting. Oops!
[...]

Steve

Erm - One thing - if the boss wants me to call at 5pm, then I would use "db's patented reverse Boolean logic" and apply the appointment at compensated UK time - what would that be, midnight NY? It's easier to 'adopt' the time zone you're in than run two!

I won't pretend to understand half of what you said, but I can see that you don't have the time zones correct. I (not Mark Penn as your quotation showed) even said that 5 PM in the UK is noon in New York, and you still thought it was midnight.

Using your "patented reverse Boolean logic", you would have missed the phone call. Using the Calendar's time-shifted appointment (assuming you knew about it :-)), you would not have missed the call. I think that proves my point. :-D

Steve

[Ekkie Tepsupornchai]

but I do believe that the current setup has advantages versus non-shifting appts.

And that's the point - we should not have to choose the lesser of two evils depending on our viewpoint. This is expensive and (supposedly) state of the art technology. It should be, in fact is, possible for it to contain the options that make it fit everyones lifestyles.
I agree 100%. MS should include a timezone option, pure and simple.

I just hate to hear folks speak like shifting-appointments is a complete waste. My coworkers who travel as often as I hate their old Palms for making them constantly deal with appointment times everytime they go someplace new. Admittedly, it's of less benefit to those who have one-time appointments and never change travel plans, but for myself, regularly scheduled conf calls are the norm and this feature is rather essential to me.

[DrtyBlvd]

Again, what do you do in the following situation. You get a meeting set up for noon in New York. Under your "logical" assumptions, you enter that at noon in the U.K. Before you head to New York, your boss tells you to call in your status at 5 PM every day (before he goes home). When you get to New York, you realize that your call is scheduled at the same time as the meeting. Oops!
[...]

Steve

Erm - One thing - if the boss wants me to call at 5pm, then I would use "db's patented reverse Boolean logic" and apply the appointment at compensated UK time - what would that be, midnight NY? It's easier to 'adopt' the time zone you're in than run two!

I won't pretend to understand half of what you said, but I can see that you don't have the time zones correct. I (not Mark Penn as your quotation showed) even said that 5 PM in the UK is noon in New York, and you still thought it was midnight.

Using your "patented reverse Boolean logic", you would have missed the phone call. Using the Calendar's time-shifted appointment (assuming you knew about it :-)), you would not have missed the call. I think that proves my point. :-D

Steve

Hmm. Using my disengenuous argument against me huh. Nothing wrong with a bit of boolean logic every now and then. :lol:

Seriously -

Ignore for the moment that I guessed a time zone wrong, 8) , and here's what I do - I use the local time zone as the primary time scheduling function.

Doesn't matter where I am, my diary consists of 24 hours wherever I may be; I apply the appropriate time zone for what ever appointment I have to keep and enter that into the diary with local time as king. (Ekkie - absolutely correct - the appointment would be before the one I had just had; makes no difference as I make local time the set time on the PDA on arrival - appointments I keep are updated and show as such - haven't missed one yet, but it is certainly a personal way of doing things!)

Changing zones has no effect on my diary... As the entry details what I have to do, I know where the entry is time relative to, and therefore the 2am appointment to 'call the boss' is perfectly valid and I don't miss it - Without being inflammatory, if anyone can grasp the mind-bending logic behind the current situation on a PPC then they can certainly see that this is a very easy solution....

I'm not suggesting it's for everybody, by any means...whatever floats your boat! (And indeed, whatever is necessary :D )

[waanz]

The reasons this issues occur is that an appointment is a set of data including a time and a timezone. By default, when creating an apptmt in outlook, it sets the timezone of that apptmt to that of the PC.

You can display multiple timezone in outlook (see calendar options). You will then see (for example) one time ruler in your local zone and a parrallel; time ruler next to it displaying time in the zone of your choice. Use that information to creeate apptmt by setting their real time in their timezone. It is a good habbit not only to comply with changing timezone on your pocket pc but for example to invite attendees sending icalendar over email to someone in a different timezone. It will make sure that everyone attends that phone call at the right time as the apptmt, once receive by the invited attendee, will shift to his local zone in its outlook. When travelling and setting your visiting city, everything will also be displayed at the correct local time.

A pain in the #$% to start making the effort toset your apptmt properly but a very useful feature once you get used to it.

Waanz

[Pony99CA]

You can display multiple timezone in outlook (see calendar options). You will then see (for example) one time ruler in your local zone and a parrallel; time ruler next to it displaying time in the zone of your choice. Use that information to creeate apptmt by setting their real time in their timezone.

That's cool to know; I wasn't aware of that.

Unfortunately, that only works if you create the appointment on the desktop version of Outlook. For those of us who create most of our appointments on our Pocket PCs, we still have to use the Clock settings applet to switch time zones. :-(

Steve

[DrtyBlvd]

Aha! Very cool!

There's a solution of sorts ready made - enable the same thing in Pocket Outlook!?